UFC 116: Brock Lesnar vs. Shane Carwin Analysis - Results, Not Technique, Determine the Best in Sports
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 4, 2010 3:54 PM EDT
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Last night Jonathan Snowden wrote:
Goldberg made another claim I think we can dispute right away: he said these were the two best heavyweights in the world. I saw something different. I saw a wildly entertaining fight between two guys who are still nowhere near finished products in the cage. To channel Georges St. Pierre for a moment, while I was entertained, I was "not impressed with their performance."
While I think Jonathan is a great writer I think he genuinely missed the mark in his piece. I don't think we saw any shocking lack of development or technique from Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin. If anyone came to the party expecting this clash between 265 pound monsters to be filled with technical wizardry I'm not really sure where they got that idea. Luke summed it up quite well with the statement "We are watching sport fight and whoever wins in sports fighting is the best."
Frank Mir is a better "all-around" mixed martial artist than both Lesnar and Carwin. He also got his face beaten off by both of them. Fedor Emelianenko is a better "all-around" mixed martial artist than Fabricio Werdum. That did not matter when the two met in their fight. Winning matters much more than "being technical" in sports. This is not pro-wrestling where some intangible like "work rate" determines your value.
There is a bit of a cancer in the MMA community (both fans and media) where this is this idea that to be a great fighter or fight there has to be this incredible well-roundedness going on. I talked to multiple media members and fans who thought Jung/Garcia was not a "great fight" because it lacked technique. Now Lesnar and Carwin clash in a battle between 265 pound beasts and there are people claiming that the lack of technique damages a claim as top heavyweight? I don't get it.
Are we really supposed to be shocked that Lesnar reacted poorly to Carwin's power? This is a man who has hurt EVERYONE he has stepped into the cage with. There really isn't training for feeling that kind of power. When Carwin landed it, no doubt, shook Lesnar and having never been in that spot he reacted incorrectly by moving backward and covering up. However, on the ground he did a decent job of covering up and reacting at the right times to prevent the stoppage. He found ways to move his hips, to periodically get Shane away and to avoid Rosenthal's intervention.
He then walked to his corner without being winded in the slightest and came out in the second round, didn't cower and got his takedown to set up the submission win. That lack of being gunshy after a brutal first round and just going right back to the gameplan while being in seemingly perfect cardiovascular shape is pretty damn impressive to me.
Shane is probably the only man at heavyweight who can present the problems Lesnar had in the first round. Cain Velasquez has great cardio but doesn't have that same shocking power that Carwin has which will allow for Lesnar to be more engaging and he isn't as big which will make it easier for Lesnar to not worry about getting bullied. This isn't to say Cain couldn't come out and just outwork him for a decision, but he doesn't have the ability to present the same problems that we saw at UFC 116.
In the end we learned about Brock last night. We learned that he does have an incredibly tough chin, we learned that he can survive from the bottom while a man as big as him drops bombs and we learned that Lesnar can deal with those things and come out the next round and get right back to his gameplan. And, most importantly, we learned that he has earned his spot as the #1 heavyweight in the world.
It's not always the most well rounded and technical team or individual that is the best in a sport. It's the one that can take the advantages they do have and use them better than everyone else.
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Even GSP was trolling when he said that famous line. He was looking to hype things up.
He said he was “not impressed” right after Hughes had just pounded BJ’s face in from the crucifix position until the ref stopped it.
Snowden pulled a troll job on his own site and he got the response he wanted.
Hughes pounded on BJ after the latter separated his ribs. BJ was easily winning until then.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sure GSP had X-ray vision to see Penn's ribs
I know he likes to throw Superman punches, but that’s just taking it a little far.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 4, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What I mean is that Penn was handling Hughes without issue, then in the 3rd round began gasping (everyone thought it was his cardio, when it was the rib). Hughes didn’t do anything notable. Had Penn not hurt himself, he probably would have won.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Sort of...he hurt it in a scramble.
Ironically, not only did this move nearly win Penn the fight, it also lost him the fight as he separated his ribs getting out from under Hughes. His adrenaline kept him going through the second round, but he was a dead man walking entering the third.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course he had something to do with it - he was the opponent.
But it’s not like he actively damaged Penn – he simply rolled on top of BJ, and BJ hurt himself escaping. Hardly an “impressive performance”. Hughes merely survived and capitalized when Penn was too hurt to fight back.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Only with his survival.
I knew once Hughes fought someone with good cardio, he’d lose. Considering how that fight went, I was right.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
yep
cuz Hughes only won fights because of cardio. He didn’t really have anything else going for him.
I’m not talking about his entire fight history, just the Penn (and now GSP) rematch. He was great back in the day but was beaten by next-gen fighters. Nothing to be ashamed of, he was just the first of many.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
So we learned he can take a beating, his striking is still awful and he can submit a guy who is lying on the ground trying to catch his breath. Clearly he is the best heavyweight and technique is for fags.
Who do you have beating Brock and why?
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
If that's how you analyze fights
You’re always going to be confused in MMA.
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by Luke Thomas on Jul 4, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 17 recs
So you were impressed by Brock last night?
You think he’s a world beater? He seems more vulnerable after last night, not the “baddest dude on the planet”
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How does he seem more vulnerable?
If Carwin couldn’t finish him with his huge power then who is going to? He is probably not going to be outwrestled.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
I think both Cain and JDS saw that fight and walked away thinking they can beat Lesnar. Cain more so but JDS doesn’t carry around 280lbs of muscles his body needs to fuel and won’t gas out on punches.
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I hope they think they can beat Brock. If you don’t think that, you’ve already lost.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 4, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'll make serious scratch on both since I expect the odds to be +150
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You think they’re both going to fight and beat Brock, and the odds will be the same for both fights? If Shane Carwin couldn’t finish Brock with punches, Cain and Junior are even less likely too. Brock is stronger and bigger than both, and has the cardio to match them. Brock now knows he can wade right through Junior’s boxing, take him down and beat him to within an inch of his life. And if Junior survives one round of that, he’s going to be the one gassed. Cain maybe has a better chance, but I’d love to hear how you think he’s going to get that done. Is he going to “outwork” him over five rounds? I do not think so. I thought Cain had a pretty good chance until last night. Now I think he’s going to get destroyed.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cain has a Clay Guida-esque pace that I don’t think anyone at HW can match. He won’t concede the takedown like Carwin did and has the boxing and chin to not get caught by Brock’s one bunch, a straight right.
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I agree that Cain’s boxing is far beyond Brock’s, but he’s not going to have much more time in a round than Carwin did to drop Brock. And if he can’t badly hurt Lesnar with punches, he’s done. The pace argument sounds a lot like people thinking Diego could outwork BJ. No specifics, just workrate. Brock wasn’t even breathing hard last night, and that bodes ill for Cain having any chance. I love Cain, but my hopes for him were pretty dashed last night, as I always thought Brock would crack under some adversity. Apart from the improvements in Cain’s striking, I think he’s just a lesser version of Brock, who’s a better, stronger wrestler with maybe just a hair of an edge to Cain in speed and endurance. I hope you’re right, but I can’t see how that’s enough to keep Cain from getting pounded out or subbed.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock isn't a better wrestler though...
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Brock’s not a better wrestler than Cain?
I think their wrestling careers would prove that he is.
Also, you mad, haters gonna hate, etc.
Just give it up already.
If you follow the years they wrestled during instead of Brock having a title and Cain not, then yes, you would know that Cain is a better wrestler. Cain’s years were tougher competition.
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keep it up
you’re just digging a deeper grave.
Big Ten > Pac 10
National Champ and national runner up > Two time All American
106-5 > 77-37
by Electro Boy on Jul 4, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Keep reading wikipedia
Mo Lawal also never won a NCAA D1 title, he sucks too. Daniel Cormier also never won a D1 title, he sucks as well.
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Soooo
You’re saying Cain Velasquez has a US National Championship I’m forgetting?
Oh, he doesn’t?
He has exactly what I stated?
Oh, okay.
I never said anything about Mo and Cormier, you’re just grasping at straws, especially when trying to compare Cain’s wrestling accomplishments with Cormier’s and Mo’s.
by Electro Boy on Jul 4, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
No, I'm pointing out that two world class wrestlers also failed to capture a D1 title
So to try and use that as some sort of reasoning as to why Brock>Cain is ridiculous. Also when you consider who Brock faced in the D1 championships vs. Cain, you are the grasping.
I’ve enjoyed our discussion but I have to celebrate America and eat some pulled pork.
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you used the word "sucks"
when that was never his argument. Those examples just leave it open to the possibility that Cain could be world-class but don’t necessarily prove anything. At the same time, his argument is at the very least a partially valid way to judge whether Brock is or isn’t better,
GreenHouse
Slightly tougher maybe, but as a Junior, Brock lost a v. competitively to Stephen Neal, who’s a very very legit wrestler. I think that stacks up well to Cain losing in OT to Conrad and that other dude (name escapes me).
Two of the best college heavy weights ever.
The Heavy weight division in 2000 was a lot weaker than it is even now. Also Cain has a different style than Lesnar so its going to be hard to compare the two guys wrestling abilities.
by Darren Watkins on Jul 5, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Brock’s not a better wrestler than Cain?
I think their wrestling careers would prove that he is.
Not really.
Their careers are pretty similar. Both guys won a JuCo National title, both guys made NCAA All American twice.
The fact that Brock finished first and second while Cain finish fourth and fifth doesn’t mean much since they were facing different competition. Cain had the misfortune of being in the NCAA at the same time as a couple of legends (Mocco, Konrad). Lesnar had a much easier path to the championship than Velasquez did.
by Steve4192 on Jul 4, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You forget that Brock was competitive w/ Stephen Neal (lost in the finals by 1 point).
Neal, btw, was a 2 time Div 1 champ, Dan Hodge award winner, US Freestyle champ, and World Champ.
So I think this meme about Brock only wrestling cans is way overplayed.
Is Brock the most technical wrestler ever? No (though his technique is underrated by some). But he makes up for it by being such a beast athletically.
This thread really brought out the hardcore wrestling marks
I’ve never heard half these names.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 4, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I feel the same way
when people bring up non-UFC Japanese MMA fighters, so don’t feel bad.
The college wrestling guys I actually know. Seriously, you never heard of Steve Mocco?
"Overdrive the sound and make it sound pretty rude." - Jimmy Page
Nope.
And I like sports. College wrestling is a complete black hole to me.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 4, 2010 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s hard to find on tv.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Jul 5, 2010 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll admit, I only got interested in amateur wrestling as a result of MMA (despite my cousin being a state champ in high-school). I follow it now from a distance, but I’m far from any sort of real expert. I ask my buddies who actually wrestled when I want to fake expertize!
Stephen Neal though I knew about, because of the Patriots.
Okay then. I tried to save you some money, but you wouldn’t listen…
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I think Cain will destroy brock. All Brock proved to me was that he is tough. That’s it.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
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by ekc on Jul 4, 2010 6:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Brock could win the War on Terror and you’d be unimpressed.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
The thing is, Brock is less likely to be put into the same position (i.e. hurt and covering up) by either JDS or Cain, being that they haven’t shown the same kind of power that Carwin has.
While agree with you that Cain probably has the best “gas tank” in the heavyweight division, anyone that throws punches at maximum effort is going to get tired. Maximum effort is relative, which is why marathoners save their "kicks" (sprint toward the finish line) to the end of race; if they didn’t they wouldn’t make it to the end. Carwin was trying to finish Lesnar for 2+ minutes and giving everything he had, that is why him "gassing-out" is kind of misleading.
wha?
I think they saw a guy that can deliver a bigger beating than they can not be able to pound Brock out. I think they saw Brock learning some new skills and not just living with lay and pray or even GnP when he pulled that sub.
And I have a feeling his stand up will be something that gets a lot of attention in camp now.
by JeremyShane on Jul 4, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
that was a shitty performance from the former champ. Shane is gonna retire the undefeated heavyweight champion of the world 5 years from now.
So who is the "baddest dude on the planet"?
For the sake of argument, let’s agree that Cain will whup up on Brock when the fight.
THEY STILL HAVEN’T FOUGHT YET!
Till they do fight, not Cain, not JDS, and nobody else either can claim the crown.
Brock is simply the best HW in the UFC right now, and will be till he gets beat.
by jhf884 on Jul 4, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Baddest dude on the planet?
Probably someone like GSP who has looked impressive in all of his fights?
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I'm the biggest mark for GSP on the planet
But he hasn’t looked impressive in all his performances.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
You're right, his two losses weren't impressive.
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Ok, so in boxing “baddest dude on the planet” was always reserved for the HW king. We aren’t talking P4P here. And if Brock and GSP fought straight up, obviously Brock wins.
So, if you think of baddest dude on the planet as P4P supremacy, then fine, I agree, it ain’t Brock.
But name me a HW in the UFC who has accomplished more?
by jhf884 on Jul 4, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’d say that right now JDS has faced as tough competition as Brock, just gave Nog the chance to win the belt again since he’s his mentor.
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John Cena would kill Brock.
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I’m pretty sure Lesnar would kick his ass.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
Seriously
You are going to be so lost, unless you come to analyze fights like me. I am so much smarter than you and my farts smell great.
BOOSH
Clearly...
I am saying that technique sucks.
I’m not at all saying that winning is just more important.
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 4, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
who's talking about technique?
Shane Carwin couldn’t even fight for a whole round. That’s just embarrassing.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 4, 2010 4:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
By that logic Fedor is a bad fighter ‘cuz he tapped in 69 seconds…..’Fedor couldn’t even last 2 mins with Werdum!" Thats just silly. Snowden you went a little too far. Reel it in and be reasonable.
USMC vet. MMA nut. Rousimar Palhares is a dirty fighter.
Pain don't hurt...
He already fought for a whole round
And got a 10-8 out of it.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
Who is best then?
Who is this phantom prospect with the power of carwin and the cardio of velesquez?
by Zou want a piece? on Jul 4, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
TODDDUFFEE!
…oh wait, nevermind.
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 4, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
SCHAUBBBBBB!!!!! Alright, maybe not.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s a helluva fighter, but he’s just too small. Maybe Cain will show me that there will one day be a #1 heavyweight that doesn’t weight 265, but until then, I think that’s the norm now.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I like Schaub, but he’s 250lbs, and will never be the wrestler Cain is, obviously. Another fight or two and the desperate cries for a 230lb division will reach a fever pitch.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone will laugh, but … ROYNELSON!!!!
by JeremyShane on Jul 4, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not laughing
I’m not putting ANYTHING past Big Country.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Do we KNOW this?
He has good power and technique, but we’re not entirely sure about his bottom game and we’ve only seen him outside the first round once and it wasn’t in a fight where he was getting pushed, pushed, pushed. It was in a fight with Cro Cop where Mirko was playing the defensive all fight.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 4, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
that's just the thing
his BJJ is “allegedly” sick, and i say “allegedly” b/c obviously none of us have ever seen it. However, we can’t dispute his brut power.
I’d put him ahead of Cain as having a true shot at dethroning Brock.
His BJJ ain't nothing
Until he shows it’s effective in a fight.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
I don't think that's how it works
How about this. His BJJ doesn’t matter until someone can force him to use it.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 4, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is
People can blow smoke up his ass about his JJ all they want because he looks good in the gym. The cage on fight night isn’t the gym.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
Right, but
my point is, he’s been in against at least one legit BJJ blackbelt who’s bigger than him, and he was able to keep the fight where he wanted it. I think his BJJ is always going to be more along the line of Anderson Silva’s where he mainly uses it to compliment/protect his striking, which is the best in the division. Until some wrestler or BJJ guy threatens him on the ground, we have to assume he’s got the skills to handle it.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 4, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well he has lost by submission in his career already
"Ten more seconds is all I ever ask. That's the good thing I learned about being KO'd twice. You don't see it coming -it's like death- you don't plan for it so don't wait for it. So many people are afraid of getting Ko'd that their hands stay home, but not me. I got to go out there and shoot the lights out and fall down" Jens Pulver
And Carwin “allegedly” had great cardio and could easily go five rounds if need be. At least that’s what we were told…..
Carwin did have great cardio.
Stand above a heavy bag and throw 90+ downward punches over the course of 5 minutes and then talk about lacking cardio. There isn’t anyone out there, especially at heavyweight, that can throw 40 power punches in such a short amount of time and not gas.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
Dos Santos has a lot of highlights so people think he is a monster.
I’m not saying he isn’t any good but I need to see him in trouble. I need to see someone like Carwin on top of him reigning down blows and see if he survives. You learn about a fighter by seeing how the react to adversity.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
agreed
he, and cain, have not been truly tested as Brock was last night. Time will tell but I’m not sure anyone (w/exception to Brock) would have made it through that barrage and gotten the fight into the second round.
I’m not sure I understand your logic; he needs to take a beating so you can see if he can survive a beating… which would then show you how able he is to deliver a beating?
I have MORE faith in him because we haven’t seen him hurt. I can understand having reservations, but I can only base my thoughts on what I know/have seen. I have seen that JDS is a monster, and fully believe he could give BROCKETC!!! a run for his money. (Truth be told, I’m a JUNIORDOSSANTOSSSS!!!! fan boy, so I like to belive Cigano would fuck him up :))
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Jul 4, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I can understand why it might seem like backwards logic.
But it’s not. The fact is that JDS has had all his fights go exactly the way he wanted them to go since he’s been in the UFC. The problem is that that’s not always going to be the case. Everything won’t always go as planned and something will inevitably go wrong at some point. It’s at that time that we learn how good you really are because we get to see how you react when things don’t go your way. Which will happen at some point, no doubt about it.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
I get what you’re saying… I guess I just don’t agree. I mean, yes, we don’t know how JDS would do if he caught a solid uppercut from Carwin, or got GNP’ed by Brock or was underneath Werdum, but I feel that it’s a positive that he’s never put himself in a position to be hurt in fights. If you’re just talking about the public’s perception of him, then yes, we don’t have a lot to go on.
Either way I’m probably arguing semantics. I’m just trying to say that- getting hurt & coming back to win < not getting hurt, but still winning.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Jul 4, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that is faulty logic as well. The fact that he’s never fought longer than four minutes did not MAKE him tire out after that amount of time. There is an ultimate truth, whether we know it or not. Carwin has shitty cardio (it would appear), but we (the audience) didn’t know it because he’s never been put in the position to show us. Whether we knew or not would have no impact on the ultimate truth… JDS has never been controlled on the ground or outwrestled/manhandled, or outworked standing; those are things we – the audience – do not know, but it doesn’t change the ultimate truth of whether he can handle himself in those situations.
All I’m saying is that it’s a positive that JDS has never been exposed, because it means that he’s passed every test so far. It might not be a a positive for us, the fans, because we are still unsure of all of his qualities, but it doesn’t affect the ultimate truth.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Jul 4, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
After he fights Roy Nelson,
A fighter with much better skills than anyone he has fought before, we will have a much better idea of his abilities.
We will find out first hand if his ground game is anywhere near what it is reputed to be, and we will see how he does against a guy who is an all-around great fighter, but not truly elite in any one area.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 4, 2010 7:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I will agree to disagree. Nelson doesn’t have the BJJ of Werdum, the striking of Cro Cop or Yvel, or the solid striking-ground game hybrid that Gonzaga offered. He has a smothering top game with fairly sloppy striking and so-so take downs. He knows his shit though, so I can see him taking Cigano down and holding him there.
In my opinion, JDS has had the toughest route of all the new-era HWs, with the exception of Brock.
And, just to clarify, I realize that Werdum didn’t get the fight to the ground, but you said Nelson has better skills than his previous oppenents, so I’m responding purely to that.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Jul 4, 2010 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It is called heart
We have not seen ciganos heart yet. You could say the same thing for Brock up until last night.
by WhiteyBarrington on Jul 4, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t care to see Cigano’s heart as long as he’s smashing fools.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Jul 4, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Brock lesnar is going to murder anyone he fights ever.
by chadington on Jul 4, 2010 3:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
i didn't see
Carwin get murdered, did you? I’m pretty sure I watched him dominate 99.5% of the fight until he got gassed and got choked out
Actually it was more like 45%
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 4, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
excellent article
by brent powerhouse brookhouse
by cagefightonacid on Jul 4, 2010 3:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
The man...
who called the bonnar AND leben fights!
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 4, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Leben just made the biggest two week paycheck of his life.
"We are entering the last phases of the Farewell Fedor tour, and I, for one, am looking forward to the future." - subo -
Cain vs Brock
If pillow punching Kongo Cain shows up, Brock will pull off a decision. However, if the Nog killer Cain comes Brock may be in trouble unless he improves his standup and submission. It’ll be interesting to see how Cain handles Brock’s power.
Kongo knocked Cain down each round
What do you think Brock would do?
Nog Cain on the other hand makes it much more interesting.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
Disagree with Brent on this one
Cain Velasquez has great cardio but doesn’t have that same shocking power that Carwin has which will allow for Lesnar to be more engaging and he isn’t as big which will make it easier for Lesnar to not worry about getting bullied. This isn’t to say Cain couldn’t come out and just outwork him for a decision, but he doesn’t have the ability to present the same problems that we saw at UFC 116.
I still think Cain is being undersold here.
Cain may not have the same shocking power, but that isn’t to say an accurate combination can’t just as easily hurt Lesnar. People think Nog is done, and Valasquez literally beat on a dead horse or something, but I think it’s clear that Cain’s movement will frustrate the hell out of Lesnar. Brock still seems to have a straight right and absolutely nothing else besides some very good clinchwork. Which is fine. Especially for a man of his size, but it’s not just about Cain’s technical proficiency. It’s about the fact that he’s every bit as tough, and rugged as Brock.
Mocco and Konrad couldn’t take Cain down, so I have strong doubts Cain will be so easily pushed around by Brock just because of the size disadvantage.
Great article. I’ll take a well-intentioned, sincere article with little discussion over a disingenuous provocative one that creates a temporarily amusing shitstorm any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Just to add something
Cain is also rolling with Daniel Cormier, which means he’s training with a WORLD CLASS wrestler, not a national champion. It’s completely different.
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Cole Konrad is a top high level wrestler
But if you aren’t constantly working your technique, you start to lose it. Wrestling with Cormier on a daily basis is a big deal.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
But if you aren’t constantly working your technique, you start to lose it.
Yeah, just look at Rampage. Dude pretty much doesn’t wrestle if he doesn’t have to anymore.
It's also why you've seen improvements in Rashad's wrestling
He’s gone back to it and is now training it with King Mo who is a legit world class wrestler.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
wrestling every day is a big deal. Wrestling with big names is not such a big deal. Training with someone really good doesn’t automatically make you really good, too. Nor does it guarantee you’ll get significantly better.
I’m not saying it doesn’t have any impact, I’m saying the impact is drastically overrated.
Sometimes all the training in the world won’t make a difference.
Big names isn't the point
High level is. They are able to give better insight.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
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Thats why Kurt won his fight
He trained with the best grappler on the planet. Definitely gave him the edge.
THREE MUSKATEERS BAR P4P BEST HALLOWEEN CANDY
by BloodbathAndBeyond on Jul 4, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess
George was training with Rickson.
YEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!
by Electro Boy on Jul 4, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I heard Snuffleupagus was training with John Decyk. Just a rumour I must add, just a rumour……..
"Ten more seconds is all I ever ask. That's the good thing I learned about being KO'd twice. You don't see it coming -it's like death- you don't plan for it so don't wait for it. So many people are afraid of getting Ko'd that their hands stay home, but not me. I got to go out there and shoot the lights out and fall down" Jens Pulver
In fairness, Kurt only trained with Marcelo for this camp, and a part of it at that.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
King Mo was on the American National team. Not sure if that makes if a “world class wrestler” It makes him the top freestyler in America who choked away his chance to go to the Olympics in china.
by Darren Watkins on Jul 5, 2010 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
by Geno Mrosko on Jul 5, 2010 4:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think strength and positional control will decide the fight whether Brock fights JDS or Cain. Cain can wrestle but I just don’t think he’s powerful enough for Lesnar. No fanboyism here but Brock controlled Mir with one hand, gripping his neck for a while in their second fight while Mir was still fresh.
Great article
Brock answered the last remaining question anyone could have about him last night, and that was can he fight from behind. Well, he can and he did. How ANYONE cannot respect Lesnar after that fight is beyond me. If the roles were reversed, and Carwin had taken a beating and then submitted Lesnar in the second, I think the tone of some commentators would be much different.
Thinking the Lesnar win is somehow diminished due to lack of technique
is like diminishing every underdog team that goes on to win a championship, be it Football, Hockey, Baseball, etc. It’s not necessarily always about having all the best skills and techniques.
People hate when I say this
but football (American) isn’t about technique. It doesn’t take nearly as much technique as other sports. Football is all about being bigger, stronger and faster. That’s why I love it, it’s home to the best athletes on the planet.
Football is all about quarterbacks and coaches
Take a look at Tom Brady, while he’s a high level athlete, he certainly doesn’t have the raw skills of some other QBs but because he’s probably smarter than every other quarterback out there he’s incredibly successful.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
Maybe for the absolute best of the best, but I think quarterbacks are overrated, too. Teams have won with shitty quarterbacks or shitty performances from their quarterbacks.
Absolutely
I just think in the NFL as it is now, coaching and high level QBs tend to be real difference makers.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
Yeah, the Jets could only get so far with Sanchez at the helm last year.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
This has got to be a joke.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Jul 4, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Football has tons of technique
what are you talking about?
by jhf884 on Jul 4, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is how I think Snowden should have written his article. It should of been in reverse, saying how Lesnar could have done better, should stated:
[Lesnar] having never been in that spot he reacted incorrectly by moving backward and covering up. However, on the ground he did a decent job of covering up and reacting at the right times to prevent the stoppage. He found ways to move his hips, to periodically get Shane away and to avoid Rosenthal’s intervention.
But Snowden doesn’t say anything like that. It is completely one sided and should be more balanced.
Snowden’s piece doesn’t “have to be” anything. I disagree with him as much as anyone else, but there’s no such thing as a “balanced” opinion piece.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
There is, however, such a thing as an “in touch with reality” opinion piece.
by jhf884 on Jul 4, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If there isn’t such a thing as a “balanced” opinion piece, then what do you call a piece that is in between two extremes? For example, if three opinion pieces was written about Leben vs Akiyama and one was about how Leben dominated Akiyama (stating Akiyama has no technique) and one about how Akiyama dominated Leben (stating Leben has no technique) and the last talking about the back and forth action between Akiyama and Leben. What would you label these opinion pieces as?
The word... integrity springs to mind about the "opinion piece"... lol
That was more a bash fest than an “opinion piece”..
The shot was open.. and he took it..
Ethics and integrity to remain fair and balanced in reporting should be standards of principle, IMO..
But again.. I like the guy so I learn to ignore the obvious “dumb shit”… :)
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
7-3-10
BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!
He didn't say "have to be".
He said “should have.” There’s a big difference between suggestion (“should”) and mandate (“have to”).
If you fight, you fight. If you hope, you hope.
If we simply switched the names, Carwin would be lauded for his ability to survive punishment and regroup.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2010 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I remember him getting tooled in the Gonzaga fight.
Then he came back with that knockout punch and he was loudly applauded for his ability to survive and still come back and win. The hatred for Brock makes normally rational people act completely irrational.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
I agree with ya. Apart from Brock’s striking, the only real question I had left was whether he was just a bully, used to things going his way, who might fold if he ever got seriously hurt. Question answered. The striking and jujitsu will continue to improve, and he’s already handled one of the top jujitsu players in Mir.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Jul 4, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought
Lesnar said he was going to fight in a southpaw stance
by Godwulf on Jul 4, 2010 5:20 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Of course he did
Didn’t mean he was ever going to actually DO that. Just give Carwin one more thing to worry about a week out from the fight.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
Brent,...
this is a great article by the best, most level headed, writer on the site.
Thanks you.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
by Razreshat on Jul 4, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I’m still waiting for some one to explain exactly what it was that Lesnar did that was so impressive. He got beat in the face and then cowered against the cage in the first. Then he put a triangle on a near unconscious Carwin in the second.
Gonzaga put up a much better fight than Lesnar did.
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I’m still waiting for some one to explain exactly what it was that Lesnar did that was so impressive
He won.
by John Nash on Jul 4, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
“I’m still waiting for some one to explain exactly what it was that Lesnar did that was so impressive.”
“Gonzaga put up a much better fight than Lesnar did.”
You must hate grappling.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
Your Fedor hate is so strong...
its transferring over to other fighters.
I like Fedor, it’s just his fans that are intolerable...and his management.
He came back from a life threatening illness
He had a year of ring rust
He didn’t quit after taking a brutal beating in the first
He beat a fighter that was 12-0…all first round finishes
He won by submission
All those things are impressive for someone in their 6th pro fight
by MMA_Messiah on Jul 4, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And the response will be....
1. Well, he shouldn’t have been in Canada, then, should he? What, American bacon wasn’t good enough for him?
2. And whose fault is that? Wasn’t like he had a broken bone in his hand. Coulda fought if he wanted to. What do you need a large intestine for, anyway? Just unhook the colostomy bag and let’s go already!
3. Only because the ref didn’t stop the fight when he should have. Shane was robbed!
4. He didn’t win, Shane gassed out. Brock had nothing to do with it. Shane was robbed!
5. Subs are for wimps just trying to win. Real men stand and bang! Shane was robbed!
There’s not winning against the Brock Haters. They have an answer for everything. Just ask.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
by duck on Jul 4, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
It just blows my mind how polarizing Lesnar is.
Based on some of the comments I’ve read over the past 24 hours people must be literally shaking with anger that Brock won.
I wouldn’t even describe myself as a Brock fan but the man has 6 freaking fights under his belt….everything he does is impressive in that context
And still I fight (or at least point out their absurdities)
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 4, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Carwin has worse cardio than the TUF10 guys and we all know how much every one bitched about the cardio of the TUF10 guys.
HTML5 + WebM now! Death to Flash!!!
Cain has the best cardio of any legit HW in the world,
And even he would have lactic acid OD throwing that many full power blows over that time span.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 4, 2010 7:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Any fighter of any weight class would probably have gassed themselves going for the finish like crazy the way Carwin did. You throw that many big power punches in a row and you gass out your arms, you see it many times with other fights, not just HWs
"Ten more seconds is all I ever ask. That's the good thing I learned about being KO'd twice. You don't see it coming -it's like death- you don't plan for it so don't wait for it. So many people are afraid of getting Ko'd that their hands stay home, but not me. I got to go out there and shoot the lights out and fall down" Jens Pulver
Hmmmmm..
Carwin has worse cardio than the TUF10 guys and we all know how much every one bitched about the cardio of the TUF10 guys.
Carwins 100 + punches thrown in round one would disagree with your opinion…
Cardio was not the issue… Fatigue was…
They are not mutually exclusive nor are they one in the same…
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
7-3-10
BROCKLESNARRRR!!!!
I am pretty much in agreement with Brent here.
But to add 1. I think when you are dealing with giant guys like that with that much weight and power, there is only so much technique you are going to see. At points the contest will be about size, strength and power. 2. There is some wrestling technique here and there in the first round by both guys that seems to get ignored (I guess b/c some don’t consider wrestling a real martial art) and 3. I do believe we saw some technique finish the fight. Brock could have postured and gone for GnP, but instead took a chance and went for the triangle choke.
by JeremyShane on Jul 4, 2010 6:10 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well put...
Snowden comes off as such a Debby Downer. If you’ve seen the movie Revolutionary Road, I think you’ll agree that it’s a fantastic work as a purely cinematic achievement. Problem is, they worked so hard to make a ‘significant’ film, they forgot to entertain. I think Snowden is so caught up in the significance of MMA that he’s forgotten that it’s a sport and that it’s really fun to watch. I’ve seen just about every UFC since 48 and a handful of great PRIDE cards including Cro Cop’s win over Silva and Barnett on the same night. But, last night’s card ranks among the most entertaining I’ve ever seen and I feel lucky to have seen it live. Life’s too short to find reasons not to enjoy it.
by mjanecek on Jul 5, 2010 1:49 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I find it interesting that Brent doesn’t think Cain has the power to put Lesnar in a bad spot. I might have thought that too until he smashed big Nog who has a legendary chin. That is not an easy dude to KO…Fedor couldn’t do it in 3 attempts in his prime…I think if Cain lands cleanly with any regularity, big slow Brock could be in a really bad spot. And Cain has the cardio to finish
This will not stand man, this aggression will not stand!
Chins don’t hold up the same after long careers of taking punishment, that’s just a fact. I’ve stated it over and over again…Nog is my favorite fighter ever…but his chin isn’t there anymore. Cain has power, I didn’t say he doesn’t in this piece…I just said he doesn’t have the same level of power as Carwin.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 5, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Brock is not the best, he sucks ass, and your article is lame, totaly biased. Cain has showed knockout power, has a lot better technique than lesnar, he dropped big nog with 1 shot
I'm not really sure...
where I was biased. I clearly stated that Velasquez has the ability to win but doesn’t have the same tools to provide the same types of threats that Carwin presented in round 1. He can present DIFFERENT problems, but the point is that you can’t point at this fight and go “now the blueprint for beating Lesnar has been laid out.”
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 5, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you Mr. Brookhouse.
Thanks for saying what i wanted to say to Mr. Snowden in his article. If i had said what i wanted i would have been banned for trolling a writer on this site. I AGREE 100% with your thoughts. AND anyone who doesn’t, needs to get over not liking Lesnar, or his technique, because he is the best fucking heavyweight in the world!
by SteveXtreme on Jul 5, 2010 10:05 AM EDT reply actions
Just to be clear.
Everyone is still bashing/loving Lesnar. He and Dana both win. They both want to thank you and look forward to seeing you at the next PPV.
Great write up.
Too bad we couldn’t see Fedor up against some of the current top UFC heavyweights…. but as of now, Lesnar is the MAN. If Cain can avoid takedowns, and strike effectively, he may be able to beat him, but that is still a big if.
Carwin has the most power in the division, and he couldn’t put Brock away, that is a HUGE statement.
It will be interesting to see if Cain can develop his striking further, so his technique leads to greater accuracy and makes up for the slight lack of power, at least in terms of knockouts. Also interested to see how much of the hype coming out of his training camp is true about Cain being as good a wrestler as anyone.
Best post on UFC 116 main event i have seen on BE.
In my personal opinion i feel that Carwin did enough for the stoppage and deserved to be HW champion. I think it was Shane’s time to be champ, (Brent Brookhouse) do you think the fight should have been stopped in the first round ??
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