Does Excellence Draw? Jake Shields and the Anderson Silva Paradox
Jake Shields signing a Zuffa contract to compete in the UFC's welterweight division is a great thing in a lot of ways. Shields is an amazing fighter, unbeaten in five and a half years since falling to Shooto's Akira Kikuchi. That was a long time ago, predating The Ultimate Fighter and MMA's explosion as a mainstream phenomenon. The last time Shields lost a fight, athletes masturbating onto sushi rolls or drunkenly yelling back and forth happened only in the privacy of their own homes. And in Vegas of course.
I think it's safe to say Shields was one of the five best fighters in the world not already competing under the Zuffa banner-and his inclusion opens the doors to a lot of new and intriguing matchups. Jake Shields is about to be put to the test, challenged in ways that will either propel him to the top of the sport or send him slinking back towards the middle of the pack.
What's interesting for Zuffa is the first option, and by interesting, I mean potentially disastrous. What happens if Shields exceeds all expectations, conquering Martin Kampmann, Georges St. Pierre, and the UFC's bevy of talented welterweights? That's great right? That would make Shields one of the very best fighters in the sport, and surely greatness equals box office bonanzas? Yahoo's Dave Meltzer is not so sure.
As we discussed earlier in the week, and as Meltzer confirmed after conversations with Strikeforce officials, no one was too bent out of shape about losing Jake Shields. When Shields fights, channels are changed-it's as simple as that:
If he’s in there with a wrong opponent, he can have really boring fights and they’ve done this with you know even with like you know Fitch and Yushin Okami, guys that are winning fighters with great records, they put them on undercards for various reasons for fear of slowing the pace down on the live show and with the wrong opponent, Jake definitely can be a guy like that...
The UFC has already seen this phenomenon.Do the best fighters in the world draw big money for the biggest promotion in the world? Statistics don't lie...and they are coming after the jump.
To many, Anderson Silva is the best fighter in the world. When we asked Bloody Elbow readers who deserved to step into Fedor Emelianenko's spot as the "Kingpin," the best fighter in the sport, they made Silva the clear winner. Silva has won twelve consecutive fights, ten by knockout or submission. But the fans have rejected him in record numbers.
In 2007, a Silva main event attracted just 80 percent of the average UFC pay per view that year, costing the UFC millions of dollars every time he fought. In 2008, things got even worse for the champion. Silva's title defenses were worth less than 60 percent of the promotion's average that year. For whatever reason, the fans just weren't responding to "the Spider."
2007 UFC PPV Average: 454,000
2007 Anderson Silva Average: 366,666
2008 UFC PPV Average: 527,083
2008 Anderson Silva Average: 312,500
The UFC had seen this before. As UFC PPV's exploded in 2005, Zuffa had an unpopular Heavyweight champion named Tim Sylvia. Sylvia simply couldn't get the job done at the box office, so events with a Heavyweight fight had to be supported by a stellar co-main event. Sylvia got help from Tito Ortiz, Ken Shamrock, and teammate Matt Hughes. Today, Silva is in the same role. Unable to draw on his own, the UFC has propped the middleweight champion up with B.J Penn and Chuck Liddell, two popular fighters that could help pick up the slack.
There's only room for a select few fighters who can't attract an audience-the UFC already has Anderson Silva. The divide between sport and commerce can only stretch so far before bean counters revolt. And the accountants are no doubt getting nervous. For people at Zuffa who love the sweet smell of money, Jake Shields ascending to the top of the welterweight division would be a disaster.
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I always feel like I’m playing the Devil’s Advocate on these kind of posts, but can you really put all the blame on Silva for him not drawing? With the exception of the Dan Henderson defense, has he had a title defense anywhere near interesting enough to pique the interest of the more casual fan who are the ones that pop up PPV numbers? I think he’s been the victim of unfortunate match making as much as anything.
Of course, it doesn’t help that he can’t (or won’t) speak english, and comes across like a complete ass half the time, but I think the lack of compelling fights is his biggest problem.
There is no mention of blame.
Silva isn’t a draw. The article presents the question of whether the UFC can afford to add another non drawing fighter in Jake Shields. No where in the article is there blame placed upon Silva for his failure to draw fans. So while you might feel like you are playing devil’s advocate, in reality you are having a discussion that is irrelevant to the topic presented.
I think Shields will be popular in the UFC, people under estimate him all the time.
He has had boring fights, but he is not a boring fighter at all. His match ups over the years have been limited, now that he is in the UFC they can afford to make stylistic match ups that are more exciting.
The big wild card here is elbow strikes, can they turn Jakes pillow fisted GnP into some Jon Jones style wrecking machine?
We all know Shields looks for the full mount in almost every fight, his stand up is pretty sloppy, and that can make for some interesting wars if the opponent he is facing has good TD defence.
I still think Kampmann is going to beat him though.
Underestimating has nothing to do with this. I’m one of the rare Fitch fans, but its proven that most people don’t care to watch him fight and I think that same trend will continue with Shields in the UFC.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
The big wild card here is elbow strikes, can they turn Jakes pillow fisted GnP into some Jon Jones style wrecking machine?
We’ve already seen quite a bit of Shields with elbow strikes in EliteXC. They didn’t turn him into a Matt Hughes level ground & pound machine, but they certainly had a huge impact on his game. Many of his EliteXC submission wins were set up by ground & pound (including elbows) and he also finished Charuto with ground & pound elbows (something Hughes could not manage).
Mos Def
The elbows is going to open your gameplan up a lot. When in guard you would only have to worry about 2 pts of contact, the left and right fists. The doubling of your weapons is only going to help him set up his submission game.
It would be my honor to be your new stepfather.
Rich Franklin speaks English too. And he’s the worst draw in post-TUF history.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he has done pretty well as a last resort headliner considering he hasn’t fought in a relevant fight since the second time Anderson Silva crushed him. That said he does have a decent following.
No
Numbers don’t lie. He’s by far the worst draw in the UFC.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
where are your numbers truck?
if you think snowden is wrong then show some stats refuting his claim. You can’t just say he has a decent following as a way to refute him being the worst draw in the ufc post tuf.
by Johnnynumber5 on Jul 22, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't need numbers. He has still headlined a number of events.
And the events have done well enough for Zuffa to book him as a headliner again. One way or another, he is a headliner, calling him the worst draw in the company is like calling The Boston Celtics the worst team in the NBA finals.
Outside of UFC 115
Franklin has never headlined a card that reached 400,000 buys.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
Fair to say everyone else on every card he has headlined
(aside from possibly his opponent) was a worse draw?
Uh what?
UFC 103 = 375,000 buyrate
The only other “draw” on the card was Koscheck.
UFC 93 = 350,000 buyrate
The only other “draws” on the card if you can call them that would be Mark “Father Time” Coleman and Rua.
Both did better than Silva vs Cote at 300k at UFC 90 which also had Koscheck on the card.
I’m not saying Rich Franklin is a huge draw, but he’s a better draw than Silva, and considering Silva has received a lot more “hype” time than Franklin ever has, that’s saying even more.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711
So you’re propping up Franklin by mentioning two of the worst drawing cards of the last couple of years? Statistically, since 2006, Franklin has been a box office failure every year.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Where are you getting these numbers from?? Where can we reference them? As far as I know you are just pulling numbers
Numbers come from Dave Meltzer. I suspect they are on wikipedia as well.
I don’t take kindly to having my integrity questioned, so don’t do it again.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I am sorry but most people cite numbers like that. I don’t mean to bash your integrity, but I honestly have no idea where you would poll those numbers.
So if I would like to also look at them, where can I view these stats?
Numbers
Rich Franklin main event fights
UFC 56 – 200,000
UFC 58 – 300,000
UFC 64 – 300,000
UFC 72 – 200,000
UFC 77 – 325,000
UFC 93 – 350,000
UFC 99 – 360,000
UFC 103 – 375,000
UFC 115 – 520,000
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
93 and 99 were both overseas
Hard to hold those numbers against him
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Well,
they all could be broken down but people were asking for numbers. I like Snowden and thought I would help him out. He is totally right about Franklin. The guy has never been a big draw, as much as the UFC wants to act like he is.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
I'm propping Franklin up...
By mentioning Silva. Silva is a terrible draw, and even worse than most as he can’t even attempt to build up a fight with casuals.
I’m not taking issue with Franklin being a bad draw, I’m saying that Silva is worse which is mind boggling since he’s one of the P4P best.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com - Artist formerly known as Sklz711
This is a matter of perspective
Franklin is a box office success story for a number of reasons that numbers won’t tell you. He has been instrumental to the UFC by showing one very important trait: reliability.
by cokemachinebaby on Jul 22, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The Hyperbole Department called.
They think this is the greatest, most accurate, undeniably genius retort in the history of all living species in the history of the galaxy.
It’s not hyperbole. In 2006 he did 57% as well as the average card. In 2007 77 percent. In 2009 58% as well. He simply can’t main event.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
In a less word play sense, I would also say that numbers don’t always tell the entire story. He has stepped in as a late replacement, been the main event on tape delayed European cards and, much like Silva, suffered from less than incredible match ups (in a casual viewer, “Man, I’ve got to see that” kind of sense).
He fought Okami (who you made a good example of in your post) in his first big fight off an undercard, Henderson coming off a loss, Wanderlei off a loss, a washed up and exposed Chuck Liddell and his best fight was against a guy who hadn’t been in the UFC in years against Belfort.
Part of the reasoning for all that is Franklin not putting himself into a position where he either makes compelling fights or brings compelling opponents to him. He’s certainly not a huge draw and that’s undeniable. But, as mentioned above, saying he’s the worst headliner they have is just calling him a shorter giant.
If you are hundreds of thousands below the company’s baseline, you’re not a giant. You’re a dwarf. It just shows that the UFC has expanded so quickly that they haven’t been able to keep up with their production of “superstars.”
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, actually, you’re comparing him to their average, not their baseline. Technically, you can’t go below the baseline, since going lower would create a new baseline.
I’m sticking with my “shortest giant” analogy. It works.
it’s interesting if you consider the “baseline” for cards headlined by non-title fights. Of the last few in recent memory, only Evans-Rampage sticks out as a huge success in the ppv department, and that’s generally attributed to the TUF/Kimbo effect.
If you look at the others lately, they’re stinkers. Couture-Coleman, BigNog-Velasquez, BigNog-Couture, Griffin-Ortiz II, Evans-Thiago Silva… all did less than the Franklin average over the 4 cards he’s headlined since the second Silva loss.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
Hughes vs. Alves and Jackson vs. Jardine
also did numbers around the same range as Franklin
I think Franklin has done amazingly well for someone who hasn’t been in a relevant fight for 3 years.
I think the “title” is valuable to an extent. But it matters quite a bit who the champion is. Silva, after all, is featured in title bouts.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
His number are low compared to some no doubt.
Shogun / Machida 1 and 2 both did worse than Silva vs Leites or any card Silva has been on since. The fact that a Brazilian is in the main event and expected to win may be a factor.
Obviously Silva wasn’t asked to carry any of those cards alone either though. It is really tough to pick these things apart.
The difference between title fights and non-title fights is high
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 22, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Could it be
They care less about superstars and more about the brand?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Not a chance. They mention the biggest draw and star in UFC every broadcast
when Goldy tells everyone to follow Dana on Twitter.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Well, that guy’s job is to sell tickets and promote the fight. The fighter’s job is to fight.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This is wrong on so many levels. Fighters who want to be successful know that it is their job to sell the fight.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah. That’s secondary. This is why Anderson Silva gets paid what he does, and why Phil Baroni gets paid what he does.
No, that’s why Anderson Silva gets paid what he does and what Tito gets paid what he does…
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I put up the drawing numbers
for Rich Franklin in his main event fights in a comment above. No way to argue against the numbers.
What am I saying? They’ll argue with you anyway.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Fighters who want to be successful know that it is their job to sell the fight.
You must mean financially successful as opposed to professionally successful. If you keep winning, your eventual title shot/reign is undeniable (see Fitch, Jon). The NBA didn’t think about cutting the Spurs because they were boring, and if Dana really does it to a sitting champion (as he’s threatened Anderson after UFC 114), then this isn’t even close to being a real sports league.
I think it is closer to actual sport than many seem to think, and the signing of Shields is evidence for that.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If a fighter doesn’t think financially and professionally successful are one and the same then they are destined for a long life hobbling around with no money once they are spit out of the system.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That is one of the greatest blanket statements I have ever read.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
And yet how many boxers have we seen that fit the bill? How many MMA fighters will we see in coming years? Hell, we’re seeing them now.
It’s the fight business, not the fight game.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Most boxers walk around in constant pain. The lucky ones made money doing it. Others were not so lucky. Anyone doing this for reasons beyond the bottom line is certifiable.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
How about we say “some” boxers are in constant pain. Just like some MMA fighters are. Just like some BJJ guys are. Just like some guys who have trained karate for years and years are.
I think it's fair to say most
you do realize just how much of a toll those guys are putting on themselves from a day to day basis. And really even more towards your point most involved in high enough level contact sports are going to be walking around in constant pain, especially boxers and kickboxers seeing how they get hit for a living and everything.
"The Wu is too slamming for these Cold Killing labels
Some ain't had hits since I seen Aunt Mabel
Be doing artists in like Cain did Abel
Now they money's gettin stuck to the gum under the table"
incoming thread derailment
does Fedor count as the exception, since he’s been obviously incredibly professionally successful, yet doesn’t make a lot of money per event. Clearly he makes a good chunk, but nowhere near top $$ billing (Lesnar, Couture, etc) for someone who’s what… 31-2 lifetime?
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 22, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you joking? Fedor has made millions.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Has Anderson Silva?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, so just total. Gotcha.
I’m sure he’s incredibly concerned about his fiscal situation.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, he is. Know this for a fact. He spent a ton of energy looking for the Roy Jones fight for the pay day. I don’t know why you constantly want to pretend that these guys are so content. All but a handful of MMA fighters are constantly hustling for more money.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it's because
They never, ever, ever, ever publicly air their feelings about pay (and when they do, they normally come back to Zuffa, because it’s impossible for them to make more money anywhere else.)
If Anderson Silva has really made millions of dollars (I see no one countering that) in the UFC, and is also really concerned about his finances, then you can spray paint me with a can of “who gives a shit?”
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course. For you it’s much more important that Dana and the Fertittas line their pockets. The guys sacrificing their long term health: you aren’t concerned about them….
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
See, that makes no sense
Why would I care about Dana and the Fertittas? If I don’t feel sorry for AS’s finances, then I sure as shit aren’t going to feel sorry for theirs.
The fighters are making a choice, and today’s fighters are making more money than yesterday’s, and tomorrow’s will make more money than today’s.
I don’t feel sorry for professional athletes that earn millions of dollars over the course of their careers. So-rry.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't insult people's intelligence
Reading your comments makes it abundantly clear you are one of those strange mmalogic style “business” cheerleaders.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm a fan of MMA, Jon
And I feel that Zuffa running the show is best for the fighters. You can disagree with me without impugning my motives.
I don’t think you’re a shill for Gary Shaw, $kala or any of the other idiots that feel co-promotion is the future of the sport – I think you just disagree with me as to the best thing for the sport.
We should be able to represent our respective viewpoints without accusing the other of hidden motives.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s funny considering you show up in every one of my posts accusing me of hidden motives.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think they're hidden at all
I think you want to see Zuffa fail in it’s mission to consolidate all the best fighters on Earth.
Care to deny that?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
(crickets)
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know. It’s a complicated issue. It certainly isn’t one that informs what I write on a regular basis.
Obviously it is bad for the fighters. I think it’s great for the fans short term. I’m not sure it’s great for fans long term. So it’s not a yes or no answer. I am happy to see so many great fights, no doubt about that.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Competition is almost always preferable
In almost all markets and almost all industries…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 22, 2010 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
I’ll take you at your word there, but honestly, everything I read from you seems in favor of the opposite of what I openly and unapologetically call for.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t mean to insult you subo, but you don’t seem like a fan of the fighters. When you argue that you don’t care how much they make, but you openly profess that you would like to see all the top fighters forced to fight under the Zuffa umbrella, that means you are arguing that you want the bulk of the money paid to see them fight go the small cadre of men who own Zuffa.
What?
How do you even come to that conclusion? All it means is that he (add me in this group too) thinks that millionaires crying about how much money they make is pretty silly.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 22, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Um... not really
I can say “I want fighters to make more money” while still saying “if you make millions, I don’t feel sorry for you.” Those two statements are not incompatible in any way, shape, or form. I want them to get a bigger slice of the pie, but the pie’s gotta get nice and huge first, and the best way to do that is to consolidate talent.
Once everyone is in the same place, unionization is almost elementary.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But even if they make millions you seem much more sympathetic to the owners who are making much, much more than that on their sweat and pain. Owners who’s share of the revenue is probably greater than all the fighters combined. And yet I have not once seen you make a comment that you would like to see Zuffa lower their prices. That if the money is not going to the people we are paying to see, that it would be nice not to take so much out of the pockets of the fans. You seem more than happy to cheerlead them on to millions more, while complaining about whiny millionaire athletes asking for a bigger cut of the money we are supposedly paying to see them. It’s as if we went back in time and said “You know what, Edison really does own movies. From now on he gets 50%”.
I also think you are deluding yourself if you think unionization will be that simple.
by John Nash on Jul 22, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t mean to insult you subo, but you may be a fan of MMA but you don’t seem like a fan of the fighters when you argue that the top fighters should be forced to fight in the UFC. When you argue that you are arguing that you want the bulk of the money we pay to see these men fight go to the small cadre that owns Zuffa and not to the fighters themselves.
yes
and would make/have made tons more had he fought in the ufc.
or is leaving money on the table simply because you’ve made a good chunk (2nd time i’ve used that phrase) not an issue
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 22, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Well Fedor didn't make his max
AND he is not/was never a draw, so I guess we can include him in fighters that were failures because they didn’t sell fights.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions
It isn't hyperbole to say...
Rich Franklin speaks English too. And he’s the worst draw in post-TUF history.
Andrei Arlovski disagrees as does every fighter who was ever placed below him on a card and deemed less of a draw.
It isn’t hyperbole to say…
Numbers don’t lie. He’s by far the worst draw in the UFC.When the worst draw on a card doesn’t headline a card. Worse drawing headliner is arguable, worst draw is hyperbole.
It isn’t hyperboly to say…
“He simply can’t main event.”
When he has been the “Main Event” for a number of cards and they keep putting him there.
Rich Franklin got his faced smashed-in by the non-draw Anderson Silva, and he doesn’t talk trash. he never had a chance.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 22, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
He's the lowest drawing main eventer in the UFC
That’s why he gets fights against guys who aren’t big draws, he headlines weak cards, he fights at whatever weight class the UFC wants him to and takes fights on late notice. But he’s still enough of a draw to be in the main event, which is more than a lot of guys can say.
Frankly, I think it’s impressive that Rich Franklin draws anywhere near what he does. He’s good but he’s not a particularly exciting fighter, he doesn’t have an exciting personality, it’s been over four years since he lost the middleweight title.
That would need some clarification, considering that 90% of the fighters in the UFC don’t draw a dime. If you’re saying he’s the worst main-event draw post TUF, that would be clearer. If he’s such a bad draw then, why has he main-evented the last 4 cards he’s been on? You’d think the UFC would move him down the card if he wasn’t a great draw. They’ve used him to prop up cards that would get a terrible buyrate otherwise. It’s a different metric.
http://www.instrength.com
Just had to see who held the crown as a PPV headliner
For the best (worst) pure numbers in the post-TUF UFC, the title would go to Justin Eilers. His sole headliner was UFC 53 Heavy Hitters, which drew 90k. Eilers fought Andrei Arlovski for the interim Heavy Weight title, and Arlovski would go on to headline other ppvs bringing his average.
For the worst numbers comparative to the yearly average, the winner is Joe Stevenson. Again, a fighter who has had only one PPV headliner, although he has headlined a couple non-ppv cards. At UFC 80 Rapid Fire (god I’m glad they started just using the name of headliners for ppvs) Joe Daddy fought B.J. Penn for the lightweight belt. The fight drew 225k buys, 40% of the 2008 average. Thiago Alves briefly held the title until his co-main event at UFC 100 bumped his average up.
Oh those dark days...
when fights like Arlovski-Eilers or Arlovski-Buentello would headline PPVs.
you forgot about Sylvia
Jake Shields is hot. case closed.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 22, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
A much better angle than the shoulder shrug...
For what it’s worth, Machida / Rua didn’t do epic PPV numbers either.
I think this is part of a big picture thing.
A large portion of the lost PPV buys may have something to do with the number of people in the crowd who chant “USA – USA – USA” during any fight between and an American and a foreigner.
Jake may have that problem too but they aren’t really the same story.
Jake Shields has yet to be touched by the UFC branding machine. Now, the UFC Machine is not automatic, as stated it didn’t really work for Anderson Silva and Tim Sylvia, but Jake Shields possesses all the necessary inputs to make it work. American, good-looking, speaks english, and will probably put on some sweet submissions.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
I think comparing Shields to Fitch hits the nail right on the head. He’ll come in and likely dominate most in the division aside from GSP and he’ll do it in a very technical and controlling style. It’s not going to be exciting to watch, the one thing I think Shields will do better than Fitch is submit opponents.
Shields is a LOT better finisher than Fitch.
Jake has finished 8 of his last 10 opponents. 8 of 8 if you don’t count his MW fights.
Jon has finished 2 of his last 10 opponents, and has a still growing string of seven consecutive decisions stretching back to 2007.
Jon, to be fair, was fighting tougher competition.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Thiago Alves?
Diego Sanchez?
Those two alone are more impressive than Shield’s entire 170 resume.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Thiago Alves was not all that impressive at the time Fitch beat him. At that point in his career he was still best known as the guy who got triangled by a chubby Spencer Fisher.
Shields meanwhile, absolutely destroyed Nick Thompson when he was ranked in most top 10s, armbarred Paul Daley shortly before his great run in the UFC, and took out Dave Menne, Carlos Condit, & Yushin Okami in one tournament. Add in tooling Mike Pyle and would gladly stack that group up against the guys Fitch has beat.
That Okami win is still a little iffy to me and I have never appreciated the GOAT, but fair enough.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I just KNEW that someone was going to try and argue this

OH NO! WHAT WILL THE CASUALS THINK?
by Marvin Malehooves on Jul 22, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Nick Diaz is a vegan.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jul 23, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
You know, people are drawn to the best,
Perhaps his problem with Strikeforce was not only his style, which is just as dynamic as many more glorified, less effective UFC fighters, but the nagging feeling on the part of fans that he was not in there beating the best, and therefore, even as champion, was not the best. There’s a built-in fascination when it comes to watching a fighter that is universally regarded as the best at what he does within his weight class. Unfortunately, in the past, Shields has not benefited from it. As for Silva, his nationality and his personality are a huge factor.
I think announcing was part of Jake’s problem as well. Frank Shamrock was flat-out insulting in his commentary before/during Jake’s fights and Mauro/Gus/Skeletor aren’t at their best calling positional grappling.
Going to the UFC with a grappling junkie like Rogan calling his fights, I expect a MUCH different tenor to be set while the match is going on. Joe will actually point out the guard passes and the dominance of Jake’s mount. That will be a huge improvement over hearing Frank Shamrock calling him boring and Mauro trying to figure out his next awful pun.
Mike Tyson and Ali was two of the best boxers that ever lived and both were huge draws. Its a matter or personality and fighting type. Shields has potential IMO. He has a very well rounded skill set and can finish just about anyone. Can’t wait for Shields vs GSP. And the rest of the Gracie camp to come where they belong. The UFC.
"I’m the UFC heavyweight champion and I will be until the day I decide I don’t want to be. And that isn’t anytime soon." - Brock Lesnar
Tyson was a bigger draw when he was washed up
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 22, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
its all about who gets mainstream media coverage
chuck had an episode of entourage, espn the magazine and plenty of sportscenter, brocks always on espn, gsp has gatorade and under armour ads, rampage is in the A team
its not a coincidence that they’re the top draws
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Chuck got that coverage due to his KO ability, exciting fights and the way he looks. Brock has had interest in him due to the clout he built up over in the WWE, and GSP is GSP. Some people find him boring as of late, but the majority of fans love the dude. Shields was on three CBS main events. If that’s not enough media exposure, I don’t know what is. The thing is, it’s not just getting it, it’s what you do with it when you have it.
Just fighting on CBS doesn’t give you the same kind of exposure that main eventing even a low level UFC event does. Yes, maybe more eyes are watching you on CBS, but more people would have been aware of you thanks to the UFC marketing ability if you’re on their show. On top of that, Strikeforce/CBS have never proven that they are able to make anyone seem like a star. Having their broadcast team go on about how horrible Shields is certainly wasn’t going to make him seem like a star.
I actually think this is one of Snowdens least provocative pieces. It’ll be interesting to see the response from the community. Will they see it as another UFC hit piece or take it for what its worth … accurate.
I don’t see this as a UFC hit piece at all.
I am a huge Jake Shields fan and often disagree with Snowden, but even I will admit that the UFC is going to have their hands full turning him into a draw. Jake’s marketability is a huge question mark and Anderson SIlva is proof that excellence by itself is not enough.
Sure Silva doesn't speak English
but it’s the effort fans appreciate. When Machida started to speak English more, fans responded more. With Silva, I don’t think he bothers to care, and I think his personality in general turns people off. Frankly, he comes across as arrogant, which is why I personally don’t care for him. Also, the break-fighting he did against Maia, Leites and Cote didn’t help either.
With Jake, you have two problems – he’s got a boring personality, and he has a boring fighting style. At least Anderson is a dynamic fighter when he wants to be. I respect and appreciate Jake’s amazing ground abilities as much as the next hardcore guy, but the most exciting thing about Jake was when he participated in the bully beatdown of Mayhem with the Diaz brothers. It’s okay though. He’s not beating GSP.
Man i can’t wait till he pulls of a couple subs so people can stop with the Jake Shields has a boring fighting style bull. Does Demian Maia have a boring fighting style? Did you even see Shields 10 fights prior to Mayhem/Hendo?
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 22, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’ve seen his previous fights. To be fair, I honestly can’t place my finger on it. I just find him incredibly snooze inducing. He’s a finisher, that’s for sure. His record is excellent. I think it’s about 50/50 in terms of finishes/decisions. Whether he can replicate it in the UFC is a different story. I think my problem comes with the fact that a) he has no standup, and b) he has no creativity on the ground. And by that, I mean if you watch someone like Maia, the guy is an artist on the ground. It’s fascinating watching him. He’s one of my favorite fighters. But with Jake… I don’t know. It might be a case of simple preference. Coke vs Pepsi or something to that effect.
50/50 decision/finish ratio
is amongst the lowest of all time in major organizations. For accuracy’s sake, its 52/48 and amongst fighters with 10+ fights in the big companies, that puts him behind only Chonan, Henderson, Fitch, Machida and Evans. Maynard will pass him with his next fight (assuming it isn’t ruled a NC).
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 22, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Jake was not a full-time fighter prior to 2006 (he says it was more of a hobby) and has pretty clearly become a different fighter over the last four or five years. Jake has finished 80% of his opponents over the last four years. Trying to hold decisions from a decade ago against him is disingenuous and lame. Both Jake and the sport have evolved.
not this shit again...
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 22, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Jake is better than he was, but I am still wondering how he would do against top competition. It’ll be interesting if he can finish guys. He had trouble finishing Miller and Hendo despite having nearly complete control for most of the match.
…and by “a lot of people” you mean the whole Cesar Gracie camp? :)
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Jul 22, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think a submission finish solves all the problems people have. 14 minutes of Mayhem-Shields, followed by a submission, isn’t necessarily a great thing for many fans.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
fair enough
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 22, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually enjoyed all 25 minutes of Shields/Mayhem.
I was kinda surprised when I went online after watching to hear everyone shitting all over it as an awful and boring fight.
Ditto
A meme was born that night
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, forget those fans – Jake Shields is a world class fighter, so is Anderson Silva, and if you don’t enjoy watching them, then don’t. I don’t want the sport to do a SINGLE THING to convince those that don’t appreciate mixed martial arts to watch.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you seen the ten fights before that?
8-1-1
7 decision wins, a decision loss. Lot of people are not fans of top control, position wrestling.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 22, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Then those people can skip the card and cry fat, salty tears when Jake decisions whatever “exciting” fighter is their idol at the time. I’m fucking sick of people bitching about how guys win fights.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
what happens
when/if shields and fitch match up?
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 22, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The rivers will run red with the blood of the hard-to-impress, fat, lazy MMA fan

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
i can't tell
if that guy just climbed out of his wardrobe closet or a fancy outhouse
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 22, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
No one will watch.
And they will miss a great fight.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
by Geno Mrosko on Jul 22, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you honestly believe Jake is the same fighter today that he was from 1999-2005?
Jake did not know how to finish early in his career. I won’t dispute that. But something obviously clicked for him after that ROTR tournament, because he has been finishing high level opponents with the quickness ever since then. Trying to frame an argument based on the fighter he was 10 years ago is intellectually dishonest.
and...
he can add elbows to his top game now. This might help in finishing fights, maybe not KO’s… but defending his elbows may put opponents in a position to submit them.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 22, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a good piece
Very interesting look at the intersection between business and sport. Looking forward to seeing a good dialog on all sides. There’s plenty of room to disagree, but it’s a phenomenon that must be acknowledged. This is also why so many great wrestlers turn into bad kickboxers on the main card.
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Anderson’s showboating and refusal to engage is what irked fans. no more, no less.
not the same as Shields dominating guys, albeit in a less than crowd pleasing way.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on Jul 22, 2010 3:28 PM EDT reply actions
except the stats given to show Anderson’s non-drawing-ness are from 2007 and 2008, before the Cote, Leites, and Maia fights. in fact:
in 2006, Silva brutally KO’d Leben and Franklin. if pure excellense sold, he should have been a draw in ’07.
in 2007, Anderson excitingly beat the crap out of Lutter, Marquardt, and Franklin again. that should have made him a draw in 2008.
what about him is it that even while he was wrecking dudes, prevented people from buying him?
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 22, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Arrogance
He used to just seem cocky and arrogant with his pre and post fight antics. Apparently this wasn’t enough, so he decided to move it into the ring with his last 4 fights.
Nobody wants to cheer for a lanky foreign guy who acts better than everyone and doesn’t bother to learn even basic English despite fighting in the US.
When..?
Exactly when and what pre and post fight antics are you people talkinh about? Other than the Maia fight, when has Anderson Silva been anything other than a class act? I cannot freaking stand all these kids hopping on the ‘I hate Silva’ bandwagon, and they don’t even know why.
How does he act better than everyone? Give me one example. I personally think if AS was a square chinned, unathletic, wb you’d absolutely love him.
Yes, it is not that anderson is not a draw. IT is that he is an anti draw. My buddies and i won’t get a fight that he is headlining cause he quits when he thinks he is ahead on the card and plays for the decision
That isn’t really an explanation to why he wasn’t a draw before the Cote fight, remember back when he was finishing everybody in the first round no sweat and people still weren’t paying attention?
"The Wu is too slamming for these Cold Killing labels
Some ain't had hits since I seen Aunt Mabel
Be doing artists in like Cain did Abel
Now they money's gettin stuck to the gum under the table"
When one realizes that the average payperview sales cited by Snoweden is for all events and that Anderson Silva’s fights were title events which have historically done even better it really brings to light what a non-draw he is. I personally find it sad, because he really is a magical fighter. But I shouldn’t be surprised, Stallone and Schwarzenegger easily sold more tickets than De Niro or Pacino.
What I find fascinating, but what everyone seems to be missing, is that while the UFC is obviously seen a growth in their payperview revenue, they are not seeing that growth universally distributed across all events but rather from Spikes in a few events per year.
Here are the average and medians for every year since 2006:
2006: average 526,000, median 463,500
2007: average 453,182, median 425,000
2008: average 522,083, median 505,000
2009: average 611,923, median 500,000
2010 (so far): average 605,000, median 510,000
The bulk of the UFC’s sales are dependent on several cards that really breakout. Here is the ratio for number of events per year against those that do above 700,000:
2006: 10:2
2007: 11:0
2008: 12:2
2009: 13:3
2010 (so far): 8:3
And if one looks at the fighters on those 7 cards that sold 700,000 plus since 2006, the same names spring up again and again -GSP (3 times), Brock (3), Rampage (2), Forest (2), BJ (2) Mir !!!(4). As the UFC grows in popularity the new fans seem focused solely on a few cards and the fighters that appear on them.
They’re also increasing the number of cards they hold, while continuing to increase the average per card as well. They’re selling more per card, and adding in all new cards as well.
Better to have 2 cards that sell 600k than one card that sells 900k.
I agree with your overall point, but like I said the average is actually going up more so because of a few cards spiking ever higher than from an overall growth in all cards. The median has generally remained frozen. We still have 50% of the cards at below 500,000, a number the UFC has been frozen on for three years. And I know people will contest this but I maintain that the bulk of ppv growth since the end of 2008 can be attributed to Brock Lesnar becoming the HW champ.
So isn't the real bottom line that anybody beating GSP is bad for Zuffa?
I don’t know if it’s fair or logical to focus on Jake Shields, when, by your metrics there is exactly one “draw” on the WW division.
People don’t buy PPVs for Fitch, Koscheck, Alves or any of the other top contenders in the WW division, so really any of them winning has the same impact on Zuffa, right? Or am I missing something.
I don’t really closely follow PPV buys, but I would guess that, again by the standard of moving the viewership needle, Zuffa has maybe 6 or 7 legitimate draws? Less?
Outside of Lesnar, GSP, Forrest, Rampage, Tito? BJ? and maybe Faber? is there anyone who meets your standard of being a PPV draw? If not, why pick on Shields?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I think Koscheck is a fighter that would have potential to draw if he had the in cage ability to be among the best. The UFC has many guys who could perform at an average level if called upon. Even Lyoto Machida and Rua have been able to draw a solid number.
Some guys, for whatever reason, can’t even rise to that standard. Silva and Franklin both fit here. If CBS numbers are any indication, so does Shields. That’s why he’s in the discussion.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
"Even Lyoto Machida and Rua have been able to draw a solid number."
Their numbers have been on par with Silva’s recent showings.
Evans vs. Machida (The biggest event Machida was ever on) did numbers very close to Silva vs. Leites
…and if I’m not mistaken, both Machida / Shougun fights did over 100,000 less buys.
That isn’t “Silva’s” recent showing. That is after they realized Silva couldn’t draw and had to put Chuck on the card to prop him up.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I sincerely hope Oakland does at least 500,000 buys so we can drop this.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
If 117 does only 500,000 than it will be a failure for two reasons:
1) The average sales for a title event during the span from UFC 57-115 has been 603,000.
2) The last two times the Brock fought, the next title match saw a significant bounce. I imagine the same bounce here.
Look at what we're debating here!
An MMA PPV selling half a million + buys, as part of a double-digit total of MMA PPVs by the same company, is a potential disappointment. I wasn’t around for the Dark Ages, but boy oh boy, I bet this would’ve looked absurd back then. I mean, half a million buys!
This is the Golden Age of MMA and we’re worried about the UFC’s newest signing’s ability to draw.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I wonder who that comment is directed at
Because that sentiment was never expressed by me.
I think you mistake disappointment for failure.
Kick Ass made money at the box office but was a disappointment. The Prince of Persia opened with a $30 million dollar weekend and it was a disappointment. A much anticipated rematch over the LHW title doing below the average has got to be disappointing.
I wasn't surprised or disappointed with those numbers
I was disappointed in the fans that didn’t buy it.
I’m sad every time Anderson fights and no one buys it. The Silva-Hendo unification bout was an eye-opener to me.
I thought Hendo would lose to Rampage and beat Anderson, that he was made for 185. I thought the first round would repeat itself over and over again.
Not so much.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe I’m just happy with success.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
That's a pretty stacked card...
It’s no coincidence that they have guys like Hughes on there to appeal to casuals, Roy Nelson to appeal to TUF fans, and every matchup being interesting/competitive to appeal to the hardcore fans.
Comparing Silvas numbers from 2008 to Machida’s numbers from 2010 is difficult even if all things are equal. There are so many factors that add to or subtract from PPV buy rates. Everything is a factor from the fighter, to TUF seasons to advertising to whether or not a match up is compelling (which many of Silva’s are not). A compelling matchup really matters.
A great example of this is:
UFC 114: Rampage vs Evans.
This did huge numbers and ended up being the biggest PPV headlined by a non title fight ever. Meltzer said it surpassed 1 million buys.
Rampage’s previous fight:
UFC 96 – Jackson vs. Jardine
This card did somewhere near 350,000 buys, which is less than Rich “The worst draw in UFC history” Franklin did 3 months later on a tape delayed card from Germany.
Evans’ previous fight:
UFC 108 – Evans vs Silva
This card did somewhere near 300,000 PPV buys, and was one of the key cogs behind Kid Nate declaring Zuffa is in Trouble.
Yet these two combined for the biggest card headlined by a non title fight ever. A TUF season had a lot to do with it, but there are a number of factors that work their way into every card.
by truck on Jul 22, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Rec'd
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course there are a number of factors in play. But Silva and Franklin have both been in enough main events that we can say, generally, that the events they headline don’t do well. For Jackson and Evans we can say it depends greatly on the matchup. For GSP and Lesnar we can say they will attract an audience regardless of opponent. For Silva and Franlin we can say that they will draw a smaller crowd than the average main eventer.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
They have expanded so quickly that they haven’t been able to keep up a steady supply of viable fighters for the main events. They also make the decision to load up some cards with several big fights, at the cost of having some shows headlined by the Franklins of the world.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they know what they’re doing.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
In what sense? A PPV that draws Franklin numbers is still enormously profitable. So, yes, they are right to run them. Or so it seems.
But, as we’ve seen with professional wrestling, allowing fans the luxury to pick and choose which cards are worth buying has a detrimental effect long term on the number of hardcore fans who choose to buy every show.
You say they know what they’re doing as if:
1. They are happy that some of their shows underperform and this is their strategy. Which is stupid.
and
2. There isn’t significant internal debate about whether they are running too many shows, forcing them to use people like Franklin in headlining roles they are unsuited for.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they know what they’re doing
I mean, if you’re right, then they’ll end up setting fire to their business model and doing things very differently. If you’re wrong, then they’ll keep doing exactly what they’re doing, get all the top fighters in the world and be (remain) insanely profitable.
I guess we’ll see, right?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don’t really understand the concept of the article then. So Jake Shields wins 2 fights and takes the title, and the UFC is stuck with a bum draw for a WW champ that can’t carry a show on his own? But…the UFC has had, what, 15 champions in the past 5 years? And how many turned into legit main eventers? 5? For him to even enter into the Franklin/Silva level, he’d have to establish himself as a main eventer, which means defending at least a couple of times, wouldn’t it?
In other words, I highly doubt the accountants are getting nervous yet. For him to push into that regular main-event stratosphere, a lot of “if’s” are going to have to come true.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Jul 22, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As long as the shows are profitable to put on, they will
Now, if total buys on an annual basis, or if the overall average # of buys declines on perhaps a rolling 6-month basis, then that is probably a debate they will have (about too many shows).
But if they are showing real buy-rate growth (on average), and all events are highly profitable, there is no reason to put on fewer events.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 22, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
When is the last time either guy has been in a truly compelling fight though?
Anderson Silva victories are assumed and have been for a while.
Plus the only compelling match up he had (in recent memory) was Dan Henderson who everyone complains about being a non draw, was unknown to many UFC fans and had just lost to Rampage Jackson.
Rich Franklin hasn’t been of any relevance in any division for years. Yet he still did solid numbers when put in compelling match ups His numbers vs Wanderlei weren’t bad for a tape delay card and beat out Rampage vs Jardine.
Franklin’s numbers vs Belfort were better than other recent non title matches:
Couture vs. Coleman,
Evans vs. Silva,
Ortiz vs. Griffin 2, and
Velasquez vs Nogueira
Franklin vs Liddell did very solid number especially considering where it was placed between two huge cards. Again, this card had very solid numbers for a card with no title fights.
Given the right match ups and relevant / compelling fights Franklin will do fine.
The numbers have proven he can out draw Rampage, Couture, Evans, Ortiz, Griffin, Velasquez or Nogueira if presented with the right match up.
I think it’s a matter of whether the man himself is a draw. Silva himself is not a draw. Nor is Franklin. Brock? GSP? Penn? Oh hells yeah. Silva will do fine if you give him someone people want to see, or if you prop him up with another headliner who can draw. GSP drew great numbers against Hardy. Hardy! If GSP fought Silva, people would be tuning in to see GSP, not Silva. The dude himself is no draw. That’s the difference between a great fighter, and a superstar. Given the right match-ups, most top UFC fighters will do decently.
I think UFC 96 actually shows that Rampage is a draw.
If one looks at the average ppv sales for title vs non-title from mmapayout: we’ll se that UFC 96 did right around the average (347,000) for a non-title fight between UFC 57-100. And that is with only one headlining bout.
Silva, on the other hand has consistently shown that when he headlines a bout it does much lower than other title fights.
same reason people pick on fitch. Their talent and records mean that they really should be near the tops of cards. co-main type fights usually. however, as we saw with the disappointment (pre-fight) of Wandy being replaced by Leben, there’s the concept of a secondary draw, and people don’t think Shields will live up to the bill of being able to be a secondary draw on a card without Brock Lesnar at the top. i disagree, and think once he gets some UFC marketing love and a couple finishes, he will be fine.
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 22, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I would say there are only a couple draws. If these fighters are not on the card then I look for a collection of what i woudl call top contender tallent. They might not be the best but they put on decent fights unless they are getting a beat down frow the champ. Say a Florian or Couture etc. Fighters that periodically look to be in line or are in line for the belt but aren’t there right now
This is terrible statistical analysis.
There are far to many variables involved with the PPV buys for an individual card to just take a couple of averages and go “tada: conclusion!” There’s nothing stastically significant about the numbers you presented based on the way they were derived.
Snowden’s conclusion may be right Re: Silva but there’s nothing here that actually substantiates it.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
by azruavatar on Jul 22, 2010 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
This is wrong. The numbers substantiate that cards headlined by Silva and Franklin perform poorly compared to other UFC events.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really.
As has been mentioned before, there are far to many variables to actually come to that conclusion. At least logically.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 22, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
No. The cards perform poorly. That is an inescapable conclusion. It’s not arguable.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It is arguable because of the circumstances behind the numbers. The conclusion isn’t always the point.
http://www.instrength.com
It is when it makes Zuffa look bad!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t make Zuffa look bad. They are raw numbers and value neutral. Zuffa is enormously successful, but they seem to be becoming a promotion with huge variations between their biggest cards and their typical monthly cards. Its interesting to dig in and see why.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 5:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is “value-neutral” a synonym for “meaningless”? As stated above, there are so many things that go into how many PPV buys a card does beyond the headlining fight.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Really? You’d have to be awfully stupid to find these numbers “meaningless.” One bad buyrate can be an anomaly. Three is a pattern. Six is a pretty telling pattern.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Judging by my e-mail account, I must know some awfully stupid statisticians.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 22, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight: you don’t think that the undisputed fact that fight cards headlined by Anderson Silva and Rich Franklin perform poorly is a reflection of how well Silva and Rich attract an audience?
Are you honestly trying to say that we can’t tell with PPV numbers who draws big money and who doesn’t? That it is unpredictable and random?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a lot that goes into what kind of audience they’re drawing. That’s a concept you seem to be continually ignoring when people bring it up.
http://www.instrength.com
That’s fine if their numbers are up and down. Instead, their numbers are routinely among the worst numbers the UFC draws. In multiple years, over and over again.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 22, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
While I’m not disagreeing with the basic premise that Anderson and Franklin don’t draw as well as GSP or Lesnar. It’s the WHY, as BigDNotDallas said, that should be more important, especially if you’re going to use the #‘s to make a point. Yes, there’s a pattern of them not drawing. But using the raw #‘s to make a point without exploring it deeper makes your argument come across as shallow. That’s all I’m saying.
Instead of dragging the discussion on and taking away from the real point (Shields), I’ll write a fanpost about it if I feel motivated enough. Which means I probably won’t. : )
http://www.instrength.com
Another way of looking at "value neutral" might be
They are what they are. The figures themselves, as best as I can tell, are historical fact and not open for (or the subject of) debate.
The issue here is why are the numbers what they are.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 22, 2010 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions
The numbers can also prove that he can out draw
Rampage, Couture, Evans, Ortiz, Griffin, Velasquez or Nogueira on any given night.
I refuse to accept that you honestly believe that.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 22, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
The reasons for the numbers are open for debate, but the the actual numbers are not.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 22, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
And 58.47% of people know this to be wrong...
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 23, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Your suggestion then...
Is it’s just a coincidence that Silva headlining cards perform poorly?
My suggestion is that it's bad analysis.
Soooo many variables here including: co-main event, title fights, time since last PPV, advertising $$$ spent, etc. Snowden wants to take the average of six numbers (which by the way is hardly a large enough sample size to prove statistically significant) and claim conclusive statistical evidence. I’m not making a suggestion about how to do the proper, rigorous statistical analysis — I’m merely pointing out that what Snowden is presenting is certainly not what he is claiming it to be.
Silly humans, this world is for robots.
UFC can use Shields
I’m no fan of his style, but he’s personable, All-American, deferent and well-spoken. He’s what Rich Franklin was for Dana (and still is), the guy who can sit on that TV panel and show the public that all MMA fighters aren’t blood-thirsty savages, like the main-stream media has difficulty not espousing. He could be the next GSP, or the next Franklin, but the UFC can definitely use more fighters in the Shields mold; good skills, articulate, and presentable.
And you stake an entire theory on one fighter, Silva? How about “Does Excellence Draw? Jake Shields and the GSP Confirmation”
The UFC doesn’t give a damn is Shields is a draw or not. He’s been on 3 CBS cards, so people have his name worming away in their subconscious at least. He is also very, very good, and can form sentences. He also just beat DAN FUCKING HENDERSON. This means he is good. How many PPVs have Thiago Alves and John Fitch sold in their careers? They gt big numbers with GSP.
Another thing is that for some reason MW has always been sort of lame.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Truculence, Belligerence, & Pugnacity
The difference between Shields and Fitch
Is that Shields tries to finish fights. He moves to side mount, moves to mount, then tries to rain down punishment or get a sub, and gets reversed – because the guys he is fighting are top fighters.
Fitch seems happy to sit in half-guard and pound out a decision whoever he fights, even if it’s Ben Saunders. That’s why I hate watching Fitch fight – once it’s established that the opponent can’t stop his game, you might as well fast-forward to the decision. By contrast, I’ve loved Shield’s last two fights, because you could never quite tell what would happen.
This article shows a few things....
As the article says, Anderson Silva, despite being hugely popular on sites like this, is not a draw when it comes to selling pay per views.
Jake Shields, like every fighter outside of the UFC who wasn’t named Kimbo or Gina, has never shown to be a draw.
However, the conclusion that Jake Shields will not draw in the UFC is a flawed one.
To start, let’s look at why Anderson Silva is not a draw:
1) He’s Brazilian. This automatically loses him points with a lot of US fans.
2) Despite having fought here for 5 years, he doesn’t even speak some English (like Nog, Silva, etc.)
3) His antics in the ring have moved past boring and into insulting to the fans.
4) He’s in the weakest division in the sport, and none of his opponents are going to make up for his lack of drawing power with their own.
Now, let’s look at Jake Shields:
1) Handsome, California based fighter. He’s well spoken and has an interesting backstory which will make him marketable to fans
2) Riding an insanely long win streak with a laundry list of titles behind him. Again, if this angle is pushed and marketed well, this will go over big with fans.
3) His style is very similar to one of UFC’s most popular fighters, GSP. GSP, who catches a lot of shit on message boards like this, still consistently draws a ton of PPV buys. Why? Because he’s classy, good looking, and dominant.
4) He’s coming into the deepest division in the sport, and will be able to fight a who’s who of talent that is more popular, and more likely to put on a better fight than most of the guys at 185.
Jake Shields just would not have the problems that Anderson Silva has. He’s in a better division, has a better backstory, and doesn’t have the attitude problems that have alienated so many people from Anderson Silva.
The only thing this example shows is the huge disconnect between polling people on MMA sites and what actually sells when the $50 is on the line.
by Jason H. on Jul 22, 2010 7:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So Jake Shields isn't a draw
What’s the best course of action then — to not sign him?
If SF were able to resign him of say Dream landed him exclusively, it would be a signal to writers that Zuffa was in trouble because they couldn’t get the best talent.
Shields dominates fights just as Silva dominates. The problem was with Strikeforce that the overall talent pool was way too shallow for them to put Shields on CBS and expect people to watch him headline a card which turned out to be all decisions, 3 of which were 5 round snoozers. Even when he fought on EliteXC cards his fights always seemed to not fit the 3-ring circus-esque atmosphere of the CBS cards. Strikeforce does not have many options, and while they do have fights and fighters that I actually enjoy watching, they lack that superstar with mass appeal to be able to push their product on national TV. I think they were hoping that Henderson would come in and recreate his Bisping KO with Shields, it almost happened, but ended up, more or less, exposing Hendo as an aging veteran with no gas tank. I personally like watching Jake fight because he seemingly relishes the underdog role and goes in there and wins…decisively. What makes his fights any different than GSP’s or Anderson Silva’s? yah it sucks having to waste another big name on a Silva headlined PPV. Hopefully Shields will step up his game and develop some effective striking, I think then he would be a fun fighter to watch
I’m not fully convinced that we can say much about how well someone is going to draw in the UFC prior to their arrival in the UFC.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
Pretty much
I mean, Fedor never sold more than 100k in PPVs in his life. Methinks that would go up in the UFC.
Also, quit being so damn reasonable all the time. Rabble rabble rabble and all that.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 23, 2010 2:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Still ignoring some obvious facts
Shields never drew past 2.5 rating EliteXC/Strikeforce Mendoza line despite several featured appearances on CBS cards while Fedor’s one appearance garnered 3.8 rating.
Still ignoring some obvious facts . . . LOL, look who am I talking to!
Look at the buyrates...
for Brock in K-1 Los Angeles. They couldn’t give away tickets for that event live, and NOBODY watched it on TV.
Fine, Shields wont make buckets of money for zuffa. who cares. Personally, I think there is a high likelihood of an epic fight or 2 with GSP and other great wrestlers. You guys keep trying to say that SF’s audience is largely different from the UFC’s so Jake could eaisly find a more welcoming audience with a company that can competently promote him. So instead prophesying regret over his signing let’s just simply applaud it.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Jul 23, 2010 1:34 AM EDT reply actions
oh, and why talk about bean counters , accountants getting nervous, or people who love the sweet smell of money. The only people who are going to call that shot are Frank and Lorenzo and they usually like guys who win and show a lot of class.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Jul 23, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions
If I may...
I’ve worked in business strategy most of my career, and sports/entertainment for part of it, some of that overlapping.
On competition and whether it’s good for fans/fighters, the standard line is that competition is generally GOOD for consumers, and monopoly is BAD. The reason is that you only have one choice of provider of MMA, and the prices will be high as a result.
Is strong (i.e. intense) competition at the promoter level good for fighters? Yes, because if the rivalry is strong, then the prices paid to fighters (in this case, “suppliers” or “employees” to the MMA promoter industry) will be high. If there is only ONE employer worth considering, it doesn’t have to pay high rates to suppliers/employees.
Generally, its a numbers game. If there are FEW fighters and MANY promoters, then the fighters receive high pay. The thing is, fighters are segmented into “stars” (weak draws) and “others” (weak draws). There is a separate overlay of course due to skill level, so Anderson can be a champion (therefore he must be employed) but can still be a poor draw. I would argue that the current state of affairs (with UFC dominant and Anderson a weak draw) would suggest that Anderson should earn less than other belt-holders with stronger draws. He may even earn less than popular fighters that are only contenders.
Sports has at least one special characteristic that counters all this. The fact that, with high fragmentation at the promoter level, the quality of the product is diminished. In plain English, if all your top fighters are spread out across 10 promotions, you’re going to mostly see crappy fights where the top guy beats everyone he faces easily. So from a product point of view, maximum quality is achieved when all the top fighters are concentrated in one promotion. Even if you have two sizable promotions that split the top talent between them, frustration exists among the fans (i.e. “why don’t we get to see Fedor fight Brock?”… and we also probably enjoy Overeem taking on the top HWs).
Therefore, on balance I believe the overall best for the industry is actually a single dominant promotion that owns the top talent; and perhaps several 2nd tier promotions that serve as development for fighters. Think NFL and College Football. In Australia, where I come from, the national football league is called the AFL and there are regional football leagues in each state forming the 2nd tier. All the best teams and players are in the AFL. Overall the fans prefer it that way.
Imagine how it would be if, in Boxing, each of the major promotions had exclusive rights to some of the top fighters in each weight class. It would be pretty bad.
Add it all up, I come down in favor of UFC holding the top talent, and regional promotions developing new and exciting up-and-comers. They should contract these up-and-comers, and be prepared to sell any time remaining on their contracts at an agreed price to the UFC; if UFC chooses not to buy out these contracts, then the regionals will keep the fighter, benefiting from their increasing brandname/draw and skill during this period.
Well managed, the various promotions can survive at a decent level; while the UFC dominates the big side of town and makes excess profits. Sure, right now it feels like they are sitting pretty while fighters get hurt to earn the $ for the organisation. But think about how much hard work and investment and risk those business owners went through to reach this point. And the business smarts they used to get there. A good return on investment is warranted.
I would argue that UFC probably is a little more community minded than many corporates, its community being the MMA community. Some of those large profits do go back to the fighters in terms of investment/career management seminars, extra bonuses, and probably various kinds of insurance. I’d not be surprised if a UFC fighter gets KIA, Zuffa would take good care of his family.
Market forces in the end determine who gets what slice of the pie. If the risk/return tradeoff as a fighter is poor, then people won’t pursue that career, and Zuffa will have a weak roster. That means they HAVE to pay attractive enough rates that good fighters want to join up. Realistically, any skilled fighter ought to make pretty decent money in this day and age, and any fighter who can’t make a decent living commensurate with the damage he his taking, ought to hang up his gloves.
Sorry, long winded I know… but this is one of the rare occasions when I think I have something valuable to contribute :P
by Arca MMA on Jul 23, 2010 6:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Does Excellence Draw?
Excellence on its own will not draw as big as excellence coupled with personality/charisma/ x-factor, and promotional effort.
You could come up with a Cola product better than Coke. But if you don’t have some interesting advertising and promotion, if you don’t invest any time and money in driving sales, you will never sell more than Coke.
I think any fighter that wants to make the big bucks and be relevant to the UFC and the fans (and SPONSORS!!!! think Agassi, Federer, Nadal, Sharapova) should put some effort into self-promotion and shaping their image. If they are skilled enough to make good bucks without it, and don’t care to make more, that’s OK too. But it’s more fun if they DO make the effort, IMHO.
For better or worse...
The LPGA insists all their golfers learn English. While this seems a tough and unfair ask, just think in commercial terms. If the UFC wants this as a contract term, it’s part of the negotiation. A good manager could perhaps squeeze some extra cash out of the UFC in return. And the fighter ultimately benefits, being a better draw and better sponsorship material in the English dominated world.
Jake Shields was the main event in one CBS card and they spent 40% of what they spent on promo for Kimbo & Fedor. 60 % more promo brings more veiwers, no one has reported that Shields was co-main on the 2 most watched MMA shows in the US.
Jake had one "bad’ fight against Mayhem, a fight he dominated. He didn’t get the finish largely because Strikeforce has a NO ELBOWS rule, elbows would have made it easy for Shields to flatten out Miller and do damage from inches instead of feet.

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