The UFC's Signing of Jake Shields Shows Dana White's Commitment to the Sport of MMA
My colleague Jonathan Snowden pointed out yesterday that Jake Shields botched his negotiations with Strikeforce, losing the negotiating leverage that would have allowed him to enter the UFC at 185lbs rather than welterweight and won't be much of a draw for the UFC anyway.
I can't argue with a single point he made in his post, but I don't care. Zuffa is doing the right thing in signing Shields, both for the sport and for their business.
Zach Arnold commented:
This is a real sport. As much as I'm sure ABC or other networks didn't want to air New Jersey Devil NHL games when they were the masters of the ‘neutral zone trap,' they aired the games because, hey, it's a sport.
He quotes Dave Meltzer from the F4W boards (registration required) and points out that Meltzer is thinking with his pro-wrestling cap on here:
"They'd better match him with a good stand-up fighter with no takedown defense or submission defense. At least then you know the match will be over quickly. If not, there is a lesson already out there about putting him on live TV.
"Honestly, the less they show of him the better. You showcase people to their strengths and hide their weaknesses. You look at that for every person and then expose them accordingly. Either a guy with no sub defense and takedown defense, or hide him on the undercards where nobody can see him except the local ticket buyers, preferably on a Vegas show where nobody shows up until late. Having people sleep through Jon Fitch fights does less to make them want to see him against GSP again. However, if they never saw those fights, and marketed a 15 fight winning streak and had people talk him up, they wouldn't know enough to not want to see him.
"they should talk about his win streak, have other fighters talk about him, never air him on television (unless they sign Melvin Manhoef) and show him training. The thing is, GSP will get him over on promos but if people actually saw him fight, they won't believe GSP when he talks about what a threat he is."
I have to strongly disagree with Meltzer here as well. Shields has been in some not so great fights. But he's also been in plenty of good ones. Personally, I loved the Mayhem vs Shields match as a great grappling battle. It was just wildly inappropriate for prime time on CBS. On a UFC PPV, I think the fans could appreciate the skill and drama of two top grapplers battling, plus elbows are legal in the UFC and that will make Shields' game much more violent and entertaining.
But frankly, Shields is good for the UFC because they desperately need new challengers for welterweight champ Georges St Pierre. He's about to lap their welterweight division and Shields' potent mix of wrestling and submission skills will force GSP to beat him up on the feet or risk losing his title.
That's why I'm not shocked to see the UFC throwing Shields in against a contender like Martin Kampmann right off. They always make the guys who want to come in making large dollars earn their pay. Sometimes, like with Brock Lesnar, it's a win/win. Other times, like with Sokoudjou, it doesn't work out so well for the fighter.
This way they can put the winner of Shields/Kampmann in against GSP right away and whoever wins will have beaten a credible enough challenger to have earned the title shot. Personally, I'm almost more excited about seeing Shields vs Jon Fitch or Josh Koscheck than GSP. The Cesar Gracie vs AKA rivalry is one that I can't get enough of. Too bad Nick Diaz won't be moving back to the UFC anytime soon to participate in that feud as well. And for those who think Fitch vs Shields would be awful, I don't think you understand: styles make fights. Two good wrestler/grapplers can be a combustive mix, or make for bad kickboxing, I'm willing to take that chance.
It's also very important for the longer term growth of the UFC that they continue to market themselves as a sport. That's what will develop the serious fans and press coverage their MMA offerings will need to weather the inevitable downturns ahead.
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I don't believe what I just read
This might have actually been a pro UFC article.
yeah
in your face!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
He’s teasing. At the end of the episode he’ll reveal it was all a bait and switch tactic, and him and Snowden will give us all a DDT.
http://www.instrength.com
by Tim Burke on Jul 20, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
nWo style
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
LOLZ.
Who’s gonna play Dangerous Danny Davis?
by PlantingaFan on Jul 20, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahh, I see how it is…Snowden gets all the hate out of the way so Kid Nate can come in, save the Jake Shields day, and get showered in looooove. : )
Obviously kidding. I completely agree that Shields/Mayhem was an awesome fight, and if it had been on Showtime it wouldn’t have taken all the heat it did.
Now I think Shields is going to beat Kampmann and it’ll all work out for the UFC having a new (legit) challenger for GSP. If Kampmann does somehow win though, isn’t it sort of a no-win situation for him? He beat someone that UFC fans have never seen before, and let’s face it, a lot of UFC fans don’t follow Strikeforce. Kampmann will have lost to Daley, and beat Thiago and Jake. That’s not really title-shot material in the eyes of most UFC fans.
http://www.instrength.com
oh they'll hype Shields up to the gils
All they have to do is say he “DESTROYED Dan Henderson” over and over and over again and not having the fight footage (zzzzzzzzz) will actually help them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Does fan hype really work like that though? Visual accompaniment is usually the thing that REALLY sells a guy. Maybe I’m just a bit jaded and the casuals still hang on every word he says, but Rogan says “He’s PHENOMENAL” over and over doesn’t really do it for me. Have they ever really been in this situation before, where they have so little tape (basically his ROTR stuff) they can use for a guy so highly ranked?
http://www.instrength.com
well they don't have to sell him
he probably won’t even be the co-headliner on the UFC 121 PPV. Jake Shields will have zero impact on the sales of that show. They didn’t have to sell Kurt Pellegrino vs Sotiropoulos at UFC 116.
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by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think that will be the co-main? It’s a Brock PPV, I understand he won’t have much of an effect on sales, but there’s no point in wasting another quality fight on a card that’s gonna do a million on PPV anyway. I’d be shocked if there was another fight on top of Shields/Kampmann.
http://www.instrength.com
maybe it's a co-main
but what was the co-main for 116, honestly I can’t even remember without checking. See?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
ah yes
should have been Wandy vs Sexyama (damn I wanted that fight!)
but was Leben vs Sexy instead.
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by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
riiiiiiiiiight. you had to stop and go check. right. you just had to think for a second. tryin’ to be sly
a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 20, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, it was supposed to be Akiyama/Wandy, which was a fair selling point of the show. It ended up being Leben/Akiyama and still did big money. Would it have been bigger with Wandy on the card? I’d say yeah, slightly. What I’m saying is that you can’t invest nothing in Shields now promotionally and then try to sell him against GSP.
http://www.instrength.com
it’s his coming out party. Million + viewers are going to buy the card anyway and b/c of that, they also get to see Shields. It’s really great exposure and a genius move by the UFC in my opinion. If he provides an exciting fight, he can be a part of a co-main event (or main event if vs. GSP) the next time around
"she told me she was on the pill." me
I agree that it’s a great opportunity for UFC fans to see him, but they’re going to have to hype the shit out of him for UFC fans to think he’s worth a title shot right away, even with an exciting finish of Kampmann. He has no history with most fans, and he’s not exactly Semtex on the entertaining scale. He’s a grinder.
Jake’s had 3 opportunities to sell himself on national TV, and while he’s won all 3, he’s taking the kind of heat Snowden’s throwing at him because of those performances. The UFC relying on Jake Shields selling Jake Shields is very risky.
I think they’re in a tough position right now promotionally. No tape, no history with the majority of fans, and a fighter that a lot of casuals who don’t understand the game would deem less than exciting. Throwing him under Brock is the best place he can be, but it’s still risky. ESPECIALLY if Kampmann wins. It fucks them in every which way, similar to how SF threw all their faith into Hendo and Shields effed that all up.
http://www.instrength.com
that’s why I don’t see him ever being a “Main Event” on any card, unless it’s for a title shot. But I agree w/the majority of what you said, some very good points. I hadn’t really considered the potential repercussions should Kampmann find a way to win, but if he (Shields) displays some vicious GnP and beats Kampmann in impressive fasion, I think it’ll be an easy (ier) sell for future cards due to the # of people that are going to be watching anyway. And if he does happen to lose, I think the majority of the people will simply discard him as being overrated (whether true or not).
"she told me she was on the pill." me
True enough
I just hope they spend a fair amount of the countdown show doing SOMETHING with him. Jake’s shown some fire in his personality in the past, maybe it’s time to play that up a bit again, talk some shit about Kampmann to get the fans a little more interested. It would definitely help build a potential GSP fight too since he’s never gonna out-babyface GSP.
http://www.instrength.com
except that
for the UFC Shields is just another new fighter. If he makes it, great. If not, oh well. They can certainly afford it with the way they underpay fighters.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, that’s true enough. They’re not counting on him for promotional value or anything. Good point.
http://www.instrength.com
Nate
do you know the in’s/outs of the fighter’s contracts? if so, what do you think a fighter, such as Shields, will earn per fight in the UFC? and in contrast, what do you think a contract for a fighter like a Lytle/Kampmann looks like? I know they release the salaries post fight, but I’m wondering if each fight is established at a set amount (win vs. loss) regardless of how the fighter progresses while in that contract
"she told me she was on the pill." me
I make a point of avoiding inside information
but from what’s publicly reported it seems that the UFC contracts climb the longer a fighter is with Zuffa and the better they do in the cage.
I remember from the Brandon Vera lawsuits that his contract was structured something like $100/$100, $150/$150, $300/$300 if I remember correctly. That was when he was a red hot heavyweight prospect.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
it seems that the UFC contracts climb the longer a fighter is with Zuffa and the better they do in the cage.
This seems eminently reasonable.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Because the UFC diversifies itself better
Among the things the UFC does better than anyone else (along with multi-tracking, a future fan post topic for me) is to create win-win situations for themselves, rather than being overly reliant based on expected outcomes of fights.
Strikeforce hyped Hendo, with little mention of Shields, expecting Hendo to win. Then when he lost, they looked like idiots.
This would be repeated with Fedor-Werdum and a title shot. But only if Fedor won (and only if he’d fight Overeem – off topic).
The UFC will hype both Shields and Kampmann. I believe they expect (and would prefer) Shields to win, but they won’t get caught with their collective pants down if Kampmann wins…he’ll be then hyped even more and they move on…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 12:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think they’re still in a bad position if Kampmann wins. He’s in no position for a title shot w/ a win over a guy no one knows, and there’s no one else that is ready. Fans aren’t exactly clamoring for Alves or Fitch to get a 2nd shot, and Almeida needs at least 2 more wins.
http://www.instrength.com
oh they can sell Shields
UFC fans know what happened on Strikeforce CBS cards. More people watched Shields than even the biggest Lesnar PPV fight.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Really?
Just because there were 1.66 million buys doesn’t mean 1.66 million people watched the show. There’s obviously no way to verify it, but I’d say more people watched Brock/Mir 2 than Shields/Hendo.
As for them knowing SF, it amazes me everyday how many people love the UFC and don’t know a damn thing about SF or any other MMA promotion. A shit ton of casuals have no clue who Jake Shields is. None.
http://www.instrength.com
yeah you're probably right
but the people who follow the UFC are aware of Strikeforce IMO. That and the Rogan sales pitch — he DOMINATED Dan Henderson — should get him over.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I think they would give Kampmann the winner of Hardy-Condit or the winner of Fitch-Alves.
If Shields wins, he gets the title shot and the winner of Fitch-Alves gets the winner Hardy-Condit or the winner of Hughes-Almeida.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
the wandy vs akiyama fight
was all about Asia. that fight falling through really hurt them in Japan. Akiyama losing to Leben made it worse. But unlike Gomi or Aoki, Sexyama showed he deserved to be in there with the UFC fighters.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If he had a gas tank, he’d be in there with the top UFC fighters at 185. He just lost to Chris Leben.
http://www.instrength.com
he's got a decent gas tank
just not a legendary one given his propensity for brawling. He needs to pick one — emphasize conditioning or fight more disciplined and avoid brawling.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think they're wasting anything this time
Rather than helping draw for the ticket, I think they are using it to get max exposure for Shields due to the PPV #s Brock draws.
I also think that’s why they chose Kampmann as his opponent – his fights are usually very active, one way or another, and will serve to showcase Shields rather well (or Kampmann, should he manage to win).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 12:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I was saying that another fight on top of Shields/Kampmann would be a waste of a good fight, not this fight being the semi-main. I agree with what you’re saying, I just think it’s a bit of a precarious position no matter what. Hendo fights are rarely boring either, and Jake managed to turn that into a grinding war of attrition. Not boring to me, but to a lot of people. Like I said, the UFC should be doing everything they can to sell Jake. Relying on Jake to do it in the cage is risky.
http://www.instrength.com
I agree with you there
I’m guessing they will start trying to push Jake, but unlike what SF does they’re going to going to push Kampmann as well.
That way, no matter which guy wins the fight, the UFC wins by getting another legit top-challenger.
If Shields wins, I’d guess he gets a title shot next. If Kampmann wins, he will likely have to win another one to get a shot.
I would guess the winner of Fitch-Alves gets Hardy next (assuming he beats Condit), esp if its Alves, with a title shot possibly following.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 12:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s tough to say. Here’s my guess how WW will go:
Jake wins, gets title shot against GSP, who beats Kos
Almeida beats Hughes, gets winner of Alves/Fitch
Condit beats Hardy (seriously), gets Jay Hieron who signs w/ UFC finally
Loser of Alves/Fitch gets Kampmann
Thiago/Kos 2
Hardy/Ellenberger
Serra beats Lytle, Serra/Hughes 2
Obviously some longshots there. Hope I didn’t leave anyone out.
http://www.instrength.com
i like it – but who would you think Lytle would fight if he beats Serra? Nate Diaz if he upsets Davis? Ben Saunders if/when he beats Hallman?
"she told me she was on the pill." me
Looks good.
I’m not sure Hughes would want a second fight with Serra.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
by Geno Mrosko on Jul 20, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure who else he’d face. He’s already said he won’t be a stepping stone for anyone, so that eliminates pretty much everyone at the top of the division. Maybe Hallman to finally avenge those L’s? I’m not sure what to do with him because he’s been so spotty about what he wants to do lately.
http://www.instrength.com
Hallman might be something he would do, actually. I’d watch it.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
I agree with you Kid
I dont expect to see Jake fighting GSP for at least a year or 3 fights. I dont see how Dana can throw Jake into the mix without having beaten at 2 or 3 quality fighters. Not to mention, they need to build his credibility with the UFC audience. If after a year, Shields is still on the hot streak, the UFC audience will clamour for a Shields vs GSP match up. Moreover, GSP is out of commision til Dec, when he defends the title against Kos. This should help give Dana the time needed to sell Jake and his skillset.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
They also can say
“Gracie” a lot, which they love.
They’ll fill it up with training montages and voice overs, they’ve done it before.
Shogun lost a close decision! Everyone get crazy!
many people fail to remember that all of shield's "boring" performances were at 185
i’m a bjj guy myself so i really appreciate what shields does although everyone i watch his fights with is practically asleep, regardless if u remember his fights at 170 ull realize hes not boring at all at that weight, his fights against paul daley, nick thompson, and mike pyle were all fun to watch fights that ended in finishes
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
many people fail to remember that all of shield’s “boring” performances were at 185
Replace ‘all’ with ‘most recent’.
Shields was plenty boring prior to 2006. He definitely earned the ‘boring’ label in the early part of his career. However, since putting it all together back in 2006, he has been anything but boring.
You obviously didn’t see the ROTR tournament. Jake was lay & praying like crazy back then. He was just plain awful to watch. Fortunately, he started training full-time right around that period and developed a really solid knack for finishing. But there is no denying that Jake was just plain boring prior to 2006.
What?
Apparently YOU didn’t watch ROTR. His fight with Menne was awesome, he didn’t LnP at all. As soon as he got on top, he’d pass to side and mount Menne, and somehow Dave would get out. Menne stuffed a bunch of his shots. It was a really good fight.
Against Okami, Jake got stuffed almost every time he tried to take it to the floor. If anything, Jake probably lost the fight. He gassed really bad, but he didn’t really LnP except for the one round. He didn’t get the chance. The crowd did boo him.
Against Condit, yes he was on top but he beat the living shit out of him in the first. In the 2nd, he mounted him for a long ass time. In the 3rd, he did LnP him because he was out gas and bleeding.
People throw around “lay and pray” too liberally. When you continually pass someone’s guard and mount them, you’re not LnPing. When you’re tagging them from top position, you’re not LnPing. And while the Okami fight did suck balls, Jake wasn’t really boring even back then.
http://www.instrength.com
People like finishes
I agree LnP is totally tossed around too much, but over half of this guys fights have gone to decision.
That’s not a good ratio, he’s better at positioning than finishing, that’s the issue.
Also, the other reason he took so much criticism versus Mayhem, was that Mayhem was the only one who came close to ending the fight.
It just makes W look suspiciously like an L
Shogun lost a close decision! Everyone get crazy!
Don’t you know Nate, if you like watching shields fight you’re an elitist. Also Shield isn’t a credible opponents because…well I’m having a hard time getting this one.
I'm a lover not a fighter
i've never denied being an elitist
I did found BE after all, the place where the elite meet to compete about being elite.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
just curious but why do u generally have so much disdain for zuffa?
the #1 and #3 hws jsut foguht, and the #1 and #2 mw and lws are gonna fight in the next month and a half… whats so bad about that?
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
I don’t think Kid Nate has a disdain for Zuffa, he just points out the faults of the promotion. It just sounds like disdain.
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
by 49er16 on Jul 20, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going to jump in and defend Nate
There’s a stark difference between having disdain for something and being critical of it. Nate is critical of Zuffa, maybe sometimes too critical but that’s all it is. This idea that he has disdain for Zuffa is a myth as he has on numerous occasions professed his love for their promotions and their place in the sport.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
by Worldisart on Jul 20, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
disdain may have been a poor word choice, lets go with overly critical
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
simple
they’re the most powerful entity in the sport. power corrupts. Abosolute power corrupts absolutely.
I want them to keep succeeding and I think my most valuable contribution is to ride their ass and try to keep them honest.
Plus I care more about the fighters than the promoters. Martial artists & athletes > carnies and sharks.
It’s like Penn Jillette of Penn & Teller said about the President — “regardless who it is, I WANT everyone beating up on him all the time for everything. He doesn’t need a pep talk or a rah rah, he needs us on his ass demanding a better job.”
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hmm ok thats a great point
but i do think we could be way worse off then having zuffa as the dominant power in mma, we should all be happy that mma isnt boxing and that the guys who run zuffa are legit fans who wanna see the sport grow
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Think of it like non-mainstream political candidates with extreme views
We’d be fucked (and they’d be shocked) if they ever actually won, but they serve a useful purpose in shining light where it is unwelcome on the powers-that-be, often enlighten the rest of us and, if nothing else, stimulate useful (and often much needed) discourse.
As I’ve mentioned before, I (and most of us) have little use for people telling me what they think I want to hear.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 12:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
well there are plenty of sites
that do nothing but kiss Dana’s ass and do everything they can to curry favor with him. Some of them are even thought to be on the take. Not my scene but if that’s your thing, there are lots of places to go to get that.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
im not saying that
zuffa needs to be criticized, i was just asking the reason u for ur criticism of them
all im saying though is there could be alot worse in charge of mma, like with the nfl, sometimes the league does some absurd shit that pisses me off (dont get me started on the rooney rule) but still id rather have them in charge of football then anyone else
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
sure
there could be worse.
but our niche is to be honest and speak as fans of the sport.
I think Zuffa kind of fucks over fighters a lot of the time honestly. Plus Dana’s a big bully. That sort of stuff pisses me off.
I’ve been fucking with bullies and big shots my whole life.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
And there is some utility to some of those sites, at least for the casuals
Those are fine for guys that just want to drop in periodically and get caught up on basic UFC news, results and upcoming fights.
People come to BE for good op-ed type pieces that look a little deeper at the various issues and items and, for the most part, are aimed at the more knowlegable fans (not necessaily hardcores only).
Because of this, people like us are drawn here and stay here.
Is it elitist? Probably, but the vast majority of those who comment here are far more knowlegeble than those of most other MMA sites.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 12:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Or, to use an NFL parallel
Its like the difference between CHFF, NFP or advanced NFL stats as opposed to SI, espn or fox sports.
They really serve 2 different types of fans.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 12:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
thanks
I actually think the Underground (MMA.tv) gets the most hardcore MMA fans and fighters but our commenters are more intelligent if not quite as knowledgeable about the sport.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I can’t even read the UG. I occasionally try because a lot of fighters post there, but the TTT’s are mind numbing and after seeing it 20 times, my brain shuts off and I come back here.
http://www.instrength.com
I totally agree
I almost never log in, but even so, I leave UG with a headache most times it feels like.
I’ll look at Junkie or MMAfighting for news sometimes, but I almost never log in or comment anymore because most of the discussions rapidly deteriorate into name-calling type bullshit, especially at mmafighting.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
MMA.tv is a cess pool with nuggets of gold. that’s why we moderate BE.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
And I for one appreciate it
I am personally open to legitimate discussion on virtually any topic, but some issues (and not in the slightest relevent to MMA) are such hot-button issues (where no one will ever be persuaded to change views) that no good comes from having them in an open forum like this (race and racism, sex/gender issues, political views, religion and the like).
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
and I think those sites are great
you can tell who we read by who we link to.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If I could elaborate on your point for you
So many people seem to think that being critical of the UFC means you are actually rooting for their failure. For some that may be true, but I believe you hold a similar view that I do, that the purpose of the press (or in my case, a fan) is to speak truth to/shining a light on/holding a mirror up to the powerful. And there is no one more powerful than Zuffa in all of mma. They are 90%+ of the business in North America. They are the elephant in the jungle – whatever they do effects every other creature on the jungle floor.
This is why they are held to a much higher standard than anyone else, because no one else has anywhere near the impact on the sport – for good or for bad – as they do. Is it a double standard? Hell yes. But no does anyone complain that the Democrats and Republican come under closer scrutiny by the press than the Green Party or Libertarians? I would hope not. Right now mma is under one-party rule, so it is the press and us fans task to remain vigilant.
thank you
our society doesn’t have a functioning independent press anymore so I don’t blame fans for not understanding what we’re trying to do.
they eat propaganda 24/7 and expect to get it everywhere.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you could almost look at this blog as the editorial page of the news paper. But this blog writes about the world of MMA and not politics of the city. I like having the different views of this site even though some times they seem crazy. It is good to look at things form different view points and to challenge what people are saying.
by Darren Watkins on Jul 20, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Different views (even crazy ones) are great if you can back them up and that’s what Nate and the other writers are good at.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read the title to a Kid Nate article and thought “what the hell is he thinking?” only to read the article and find myself on his side more times than not.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
Just make sure you don't lose your edge
When you write you remind me of Skip from First take and even Jason Whitlock from foxsports.com to an extent (I hope you don’t take offense to those comparisons).
I often disagree with Skip, but as soon as he starts explaining his reasoning I start going “well he’s got a point",”damn there’s another one", then finally “crap, maybe I was wrong”.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
I’ll be damned if Skip didn’t have LeBron pegged from the beginning.
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
I hate Skip Bayless
but I guess even a blind, moronic squirrel finds a nut sometimes.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
My college degree is proof of that.
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
i'm utterly unfamiliar with those guys
if it’s not MMA I pay ZERO attention to sports.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Both guys take unpopular stances on arguments, but usually give enough examples and facts to back up their argument.
Just for example, as woomikee stated, Skip has been saying for years that LeBron James (he plays basketball… the game with the round orange ball) was selfish and just another egomaniac pro athlete. He took that stance even though up until recently LeBron was thought of as a good guy.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
interesting
i think i read a book he wrote about the dallas cowboys once. i stopped caring when emmett smith retired.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Dave Meltzer sounds like a boxing guy
MMA is a great SPORT b/c the guys dont duck each other like boxing guys do. So why does he want to hid shields from the public. Sheilds is a top 5 WW and could challenge GSP today. Maybe the WW is just going to be boring until we get some guys who have some good TakeDown D and cant strike. Or fans can learn what is going on when the fight goes to the ground and his fights wont be nearly as boring.
Cant wait to see what Sheilds is made of and I hope everyone else gets to see him fight.
by Darren Watkins on Jul 20, 2010 11:10 AM EDT reply actions
Meltzer's a pro wrestling guy, actually
He’s thinking in terms of a guy being a long-term draw, like you would in that “arena”.
http://www.instrength.com
o ok I see. That type of thinking is dumb to me. Yes it works to build a guy up but most people can see through bullshit marketing and what does the UFC do if they hide shields and then he beats GSP? Now there new champ has no fights that people know about. Dont hide fighters b/c you dont like the style that they fight. IF they win then keep putting them in against the next guy. There fights wont always be boring and the fans might learn a thing or too about BJJ.
This sport needs smart people in charge not EX Pro wrestling people who market faking fight to really dumb fans that think it is real half the time.
by Darren Watkins on Jul 20, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree. There is a certain amount of pro wrestling promotional stuff that crosses over into MMA, but this isn’t one of those cases. It’s a stupid expression, but talk is cheap. They can promote the hell out of him verbally, but it’s gonna come down to what he can do in the cage that will make people believe in him. Like I said above, visual accompaniment to hype is everything, IMO.
As for the whole pro wrestling/UFC comparison, there’s no denying that there are many similarities. Pro wrestling fans aren’t all dumb and believing it’s real, they just like the soap opera-ish aspect of it. MMA uses the same sort of thing – that’s why Rampage/Rashad sold a mil on PPV. But there are MAJOR differences between the 2 that Meltzer doesn’t seem to see sometimes. He’s one of the best MMA writers out there by fan, but I definitely don’t always agree with his side of things.
http://www.instrength.com
A pro-UFC column?
Kid Nate is slipping.
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
I’d give him Kamp→Fitch (but that could hurt his UFC image)→ then GSP. If he can beat Fitch then there’s no reason not to give hime a shot
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
I would be shocked if he fought Fitch in anything but a title fight. That’s not what they’re trying to do here…
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 20, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Fitch is in need of a fight, but I know the UFC doesn’t like pitting budding stars against each other early (Cain\JDS)
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
Fitch isn't a budding star though
He has an extensive resume with the promotion only losing to the champ, albeit in a lopsided manner.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Yeah but he's established
Fitch is what he is and whatever little star power he has is completely maxed out at this point. For the UFC it makes sense to have Shields and Fitch fight at some point because if Shields beats Fitch it gives him a lot of credibility and if Fitch beats Shields it’s hard to deny him as one of the best 170lbs fighters ever.
Your comparison to JDS/Cain is not in anyway correct, the two situations are drastically different.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
If it got to that point, they’d have to stuff that title defense in behind a Brock or (soon to be) BJ title defense…because main eventing with that fight could spell disaster. I think it’d be an awesome fight, but I’d be in the minority on that.
http://www.instrength.com
I think it would be a great fight as well
Probably the fight I most want to see Shields in, as I don’t think he has much of a chance against GSP.
It is a fight that would have to be on a card with some heavy action fights though, maybe just under Anderson-Rua…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The winner of Alves / Fitch has to be be close though...
Especially if Fitch wins. How long can they deny him? Has somebody told him you will get your tittle shot the next time you finish somebody.
Can you really give Alves the shot?
He hasn’t fought in over a year, and his fight previous to his upcoming rematch with Fitch was his very onesided loss to the champ.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Maybe they can have it both ways
If Shields wins I gotta imagine they’re going to give him the shot right off the bad. Maybe they ask Fitch if he wants another fight in the interim or wants to wait for the winner of a Shields/GSP fight.
The other thing is that despite his resume it’s going to be really tough to build heat for a rematch with Fitch. Their first fight wasn’t even remotely close and Fitch hasn’t shown and real significant evolution in his game since then.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
I doubt we'll ever see that fight
I don’t think GSP wants it, I don’t think the UFC wants and the only reason Anderson Silva wants it is because it’s potentially a huge payday.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Silva doesn’t want it.
“I don’t think a fight with GSP [George St. Pierre] will ever happen. It’s not a fight I want to have and I don’t think GSP wants it either.”
I'm a lover not a fighter
Anderson Silva on roverradio.com
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/6/25/1536402/anderson-silva-says-i-dont-think-a
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Jul 20, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There you go then
Nobody actually involved in the potential fight is interested in it so whatever rumors people here are just that, rumors.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
GSP is warming up to it, but he said he would retire if he beats Anderson. There would be no greater challenge left for him in the sport.
Your beliefs become your reality.
by Hardy's in your face on Jul 20, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
And if for no other reason
That threat, although not meant as one, will keep Dana from making that fight happen.
Or was that GSP’s real agenda when he made those comments…
I’m in the minority for sure with this, but I think GSP takes that fight if it ever happens, and much more easily than most would think.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't want it either
So I guess all the key figures are against it.
Silva vs Shogun
Silva vs Rampage
Silva vs Mir
Silva vs Cro Cop
Silva vs Fedor
Book those instead…
Silva vs Cro Cop would likely end in me being very Sad. I’d like to avoid that.
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
Silva vs. Fedor for sure,
And maybe, maybe Silva vs. Shogun are the only ones I would put ahead of Silva vs. GSP
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I have zero interest in watching GSP get KO'd easily by Silva
I aam a big GSP fan, but when people consider Silva a threat to top LHW’s and HW’s he has no business fighting a WW IMO
Excellent write up
I personally think Snowden and Meltzer kind of missed the point of a signing like this and this article is a perfect counterpoint to their perspective.
At the end of the day, Jake Shields wasn’t signed to be a superstar, he was signed because he’s an excellent fighter, with an excellent record and is a credible threat the the entire 170lbs division. Shields could come in and lose three straight and it wouldn’t matter because he wasn’t brought in to be a draw, he was brought in because he deserves to fight the best 170lbs fighters in the world.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
by Worldisart on Jul 20, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thank you Nate
The UFC just signed a champion from its biggest competitor and all we got yesterday was how horrible it was for us.
RIP Phil Harris. I'll miss you man
by II SMASH II on Jul 20, 2010 11:16 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
No one said anything of the sort.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 20, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Perhaps not, but the tone of your post suggested that Strikeforce had pulled one over on the UFC by offloading “the ultimate channel changer.”
As many of us argued then, the Shields signing didn’t have to move the PPV needle, or set the Internet ablaze, to be a strategically sound move for the UFC.
Your article was a largely negative response to a largely positive move.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 20, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
people seem to have missed the point
of Snowden’s piece. He wasn’t crapping on the signing, he was crapping all over Shields. The guy will bring the boo birds to the UFC, just you watch.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Is he really more boring in the ring than Jon Fitch?
or Gray Maynard? or even Chael Sonnen for that matter? I’d rather see Shields in the cage than any of those guys.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree that Shields is a good candidate to annoy some drunks in Affliction shirts, but I don’t see how he’s any less entertaining than any number of bland wrestler types currently fighting in the UFC.
To your point, which I strongly agree with, the move was important not because it will result in immediate new fans and increased viewership, but because it strengthens the competition in the marquee division of the sport’s largest promotion.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 20, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd think he's around the same
I’m really curious how much they’re paying him because as you’ve said, he’s right along the lines of Fitch/Maynard – grappler/wrestler who has excellent top-control, but will easily ride out a decision if he can’t finish you. The UFC has already expressed their disdain for Fitch: cutting him and the rest of AKA due to the video game and likeness rights, White publicly deriding him for his lack of finishes and “won’t fight Koscheck” stance. Maynard got passed up for a title shot against Penn by a guy he beat when he’s still undefeated… why? He decisions the fuck out of people, seemingly regardless of their ranking, skillset or talents.
While I realize that beating Hendo and coming back from that rd 1 beating he took was very impressive, I can’t really imagine Zuffa paying him oodles of money
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 20, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree,
which is why I’m having a hard time understanding Snowden’s criticism of Shields or of the deal the UFC made.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 20, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It was pretty explicit in my article. What didn’t you understand?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 20, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not saying the UFC should have passed on Jake Shields, right?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t write one word about whether the UFC should or should not have signed Jake Shields.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 20, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, because it’s a no brainer, right? Wouldn’t they get infinitely more flack for leaving a quality fighter unemployed because he didn’t fight “the right way”?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand what the takeaway is supposed to be. Was the UFC dumb for signing Shields? Was Strikeforce smart for letting him go? Neither? Both?
You make a pretty convincing case that Jake Shields doesn’t have a ton of drawing power as a fighter, but I wasn’t even aware that was a subject of debate.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 20, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Abbreviated version of Snowden’s article:
Shields fucked up his negotiations with the UFC by pissing off Strikeforce so he couldn’t use them as leverage. Shields is being brought over to the UFC because he is a top talent but he has proven to be – for whatever reason – the opposite of a draw. As such, Strikeforce may be secretly relieved that he did them the favor and let them unload him on the UFC.
I don’t think he’s saying Jake Shields is bad and I don’t think he’s saying the UFC is stupid for signing him.
exactly
the main take away was that Shields is boring and he fucked up his negotiations with the UFC/Strikeforce.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Fair enough
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jul 20, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Imagine that. If you read an article without focusing entirely on whether it is “pro Strikeforce” or “pro UFC” you can actually understand what it is about and process it. I’m not “anti” anybody and the bizarro UFC cheerleaders who think like this are doing a fair amount of projection.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 21, 2010 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
this is true
not a terribly high bar, but true.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 20, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
People boo'd The Spider for his "lack of knockouts"?
GSP against Dan Hardy was a good display of wrestling, but wasn’t as exciting as many had thought it would be. Frankie Edgar vs. Penn was pretty “boring” in terms of high end strikes and takedowns.
I just think you will always have some fans who believe that every MMA fight is supposed to result in a KO or submission. If not, it wasn’t a good match.
I’m not a fan of Jake Shields as a fighter, but the signing of Shields brings an extra layer of intrigue to the 185 division.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Jul 20, 2010 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
" On a UFC PPV, I think the fans could appreciate the skill and drama of two top grapplers battling, plus elbows are legal in the UFC and that will make Shields’ game much more violent and entertaining."
Which one is it Nate?
by ufc4 on Jul 20, 2010 11:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah
personally I dig Shields. I enjoyed both the Mayhem and Hendo fights. But that doesn’t mean I’m not painfully aware of the opinion of the average meathead and even worse the casual or potential fans who HATED those fights.
I saw Shields vs Mayhem in a room full of casuals. They just snoozed.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor vs Rogers on the other hand
had them ROCKING AND ROLLING
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Some guys work on the ground is very exciting.
And some guys work on the ground is very boring. The world of MMA is very much a what have you done for me lately world. His last fight had a great first round, in the eyes of many, but the last 4 with him gaining mount and throwing baby punches was not all that entertaining.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
by Geno Mrosko on Jul 20, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Crazy concept...
Signing the best free agent out there and legit top 10 WW…
Man his signing will be so boring for fans that want to see the best fight the best…
Not at all. Just that it wasn’t big news. Which I tend to agree with.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
True - only the date of the signing was TBD
It had been a foregone conclusion for some time now – it would have been a bigger story had he somehow re-upped with SF after everything…
Not unlike signing a top-5 draft pick in the NFL – everyone knows its coming, the specific day is not so newsworthy.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 11:35 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I hold back judgement..
… until he shows his gnp ability when able to use elbows…
He’s going to be much more effective in my opinion.
Until then, haters gonna hate…
I still LOL at Jake Shields first showing up on a UFC broadcast…with AldovsFaber on the screen instead of an actual promotional name.
http://www.instrength.com
Tim Horton's
I owe so much to thee….
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Maybe so
But they give so much in return. 8+ years of post secondary education made possible by Tim Horton’s for me.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
I was
Working 30 hours a week as a bartender with a full course load and the accompanying homework, caffeine was essential.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
I did briefly when I was in high school
But that was a long time ago!
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Am I to take that screenshot to mean
You are a Texan as well? Or at least live here?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
and i think zuffa showed their dedication to the sport when they were down 40 million and kept on going
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
by milk72 on Jul 20, 2010 11:20 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Personally, I’m almost more excited about seeing Shields vs Jon Fitch or Josh Koscheck than GSP. The Cesar Gracie vs AKA rivalry is one that I can’t get enough of. Too bad Nick Diaz won’t be moving back to the UFC anytime soon to participate in that feud as well.
How long is Diaz tied up with SF out of curiousity…?
as long as he keeps winning
he’s locked in with a championship clause.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe they’ll just release him once his deal is up like they did with Shields, that’ll really stick it to the UFC, they’ll be snickering over that one for years to come. We gift wrapped one of our champs and drove down his price for you Zuffa, hahahahaha!!!!
by ufc4 on Jul 20, 2010 12:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Not quite
for as much as he’s a fuckup who will never be on a CBS card, Diaz is one of the most entertaining fighters and personalities in MMA and Strikeforce loves having him.
He’s also better off in Strikeforce. The wrestlers in the UFC already ran him off once, they’d likely do it again.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Not just the lack of wrestlers
Lack of quality welterweights in general.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
IMO
Nick can hang with anyone at welterweight, just has a poor style for top wrestlers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Fair
I think he’s a game fighter for anyone between 160 and 185lbs. But as far as competing as a welterweight in the confines of Strikeforce, he doesn’t have anyone to fight. Maybe they bring in Semtex? But past that who else? They hedged on matching him with Hieron, who deserved the fight IMO and who I would put money on to win.
I’ve just never been totally sold on Nick. Entertaining and game though he is, I think he loses more than he wins in deep end of the 170lbs talent pool.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
I think there are potentially several big fights they can make for him:
- Paul Daley (if they sign him)
- Karo Parisyan (if they sign him)
- a MW bout with Mayhem Miller
- a catchweight bout with KJ Noons
- a corss-promotion bout with the Bellator Champ (Lymon Good or Ben Askren)
- Maybe a rematch with Joe Riggs eventually
All those fights could draw a lot of interest, but they paper over the bigger problem, which is building a meaningful WW division. They got a lot of great prospects (Galvao, Woodley, Bowling, etc) but not a real hierarchy with prospects, gatekeepers, and contenders. I would love for Strikeforce to not only sign Daley, but also sign Gono, Jason High, and maybe see if they can cut a deal to get Dan Hornbuckle from Bellator. That would be a great foundation to build from.
It would be nice
But I still don’t think it solves the Nick Diaz problem.
By and large I don’t agree with the notion when Dana talks about guys outside the UFC having inflated rankings and reputations, however in the case of Nick Diaz I think it’s true. Forget about Strikeforce for a second and just look at Diaz. He needs to go back to the UFC and win some meaningful fights there to really solidify his reputation in the sport. Otherwise he’s always going to be that guy who people speculate could make some noise against the elite welterweights in the world but we’ll never know.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Your right. Of all the divisions WW is the one that the UFC has on complete lockdown. Now if Bellator and Strikeforce keep all their young prospects, maybe in two or three years we’ll see a meaningful ww division outside the UFC, but that a big maybe and until then what is Diaz supposed to do? I would love to see him in the UFC so that I can finally get my dream match of Nick vs Koscheck.
Epic smack talk
Kos vs. Nick would be fun in the lead up if nothing else.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
For a long time I have been begging for Team Gracie vs AKA
Shields vs Fitch
Nick vs Kos
Nate vs Swick
Melendez vs Thompson
May as well add
Canseco vs Hersch
Put it all on one card!!
If he continues to stay focused
Askren will be a threat to anybody in his weight class. He, much like Jon Jones, just need a little more seasoning before they are truly ready, perhaps even a loss if they begin to believe the hype themselves…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
He would be elite, if not for the MMA wrestlers at WW
He would have no chance against GSP, Kos or Fitch. Even in Bellator, Askren would tool him IMO.
At WW I would love to see him against Kampmann, Condit, Hardy, Almeida or even Alves.
If he were in the UFC, I think he (and Shields for that matter) would fare far better at MW than at WW, even if giving up a bit of size.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
"He would be elite, if not for the MMA wrestlers at WW"
I hate comments like that. This MIXED martial arts, not grapple box. If he can’t hang with the wrestlers then he’s obviously not elite, no qualifiers needed.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
He just has the misfortune of being an otherwise excellent fighter
In a weightclass (and the beginnings of an era) dominated by the elite MMA wrestlers.
JDS will soon be shown to have the same problem.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
That is why I don't get people saying JDS is the next champ
He is the smallest of the top contenders and we haven’t seen his ground game. I am a big fan and he may cause problems for some, but I need to see his ground game.
I am a big fan of Diaz but I think he is the most over rated (rankings)
fighter around. His biggest WW win in the last tree years was against an extremely overrated Zaromski and he hasn’t defeated anyone else of note at WW ever. Next would probably be Robbie Lawler then Josh Neer, Chris Lytle or old man Hayato Sakurai.
He is a very talented fighter, but number 6 a WW? I don’t see it.
The wrestlers in the UFC already ran him off once, they’d likely do it again.
Please explain this. Nick won his last two fights in the UFC and left voluntarily.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
but that was his 2nd go round
he left initially after a 4 fight losing streak — Karo, Joe Riggs, Sean Sherk and Diego all notched decision wins over Nick.
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He beat Fickett and Oishi after the Karo win…so it was a 3 fight losing streak.
http://www.instrength.com
Oishi was hysterical
I appreciated Joe Rogan during that fight.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Please don't mention the Oishi fight.
That hardly even counts as a win in one of the most bizarre matches in UFC history with Oishi just standing as a punching bag for Diaz.
by dreamers_12345 on Jul 21, 2010 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
My colleague Jonathan Snowden pointed out yesterday that Jake Shields botched his negotiations with Strikeforce, losing the negotiating leverage that would have allowed him to enter the UFC at 185lbs rather than welterweight and won’t be much of a draw for the UFC anyway.
I still don’t think he ever had much negotiating leverage in the first place. I think it was already pretty well known before the Hendo fight he wasn’t happy with how he was treated and promoted by SF, and the promotion was obviously soured on him from the Mayhem fight. I don’t think trying to play nice with SF after beating Hendo would have fooled Dana at all.
The Cesar Gracie vs AKA rivalry is one that I can’t get enough of.
So, Shields vs. Fitch, Nick vs. Kos, and Nate vs. Swick? I’d watch that series of fights.
Off-Topic
Couture is on ESPN’s First Take with Terry Crews talking about “The Expendables.”
"Dodger fans aren’t happy when foul balls get into their section, because it interferes with their playing with the beachball"- Mike Krukow
double sun powahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
Don’t agree with Melendez’s recent comment that Shields cleaned out his division at Strikeforce. I wanted to see Jacare-Shields in SF before he left, but his contract was up and he would have lost dollars had he lost.
One of the problems with Jake Shields in primetime is at times, not enough of an intent to finish. Too often Shields will get in a dominant position and stall out to win on points, instead of improving his position and attempting to go for a knockout or a submission.
His first opponent in the UFC is evidence of great matchmaking.
Lack of intent to finish?
That’s complete an utter crap.
The two fighters he went to decision with in his last two fights are both fighters who are notoriously tough to finish. Before that he rattled off 8 straight Sub/TKO finishes.
The myth that he can’t finish is just that, a myth.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
i'm not too worried for shields
i was worried when he wanted to fight at 185 because he just doesn’t seem to have the strength for it. but at 170 he finishes people. just look at his fights before mayhem. kampman is going to be a tough test but i’m hoping he does well.
Fitch Vs Shield is what I want as well
I enjoy the chess match aspect of MMA most of all and this fight has technical battle written all over it. I’m sure the drunks will start booing before the match even starts though, assholes.
Yo Kid Nate,
You know you say you like to write from the fan view point? So why do you release the Zuffa in Trouble articles and others similar? Surely the average fan doesnt know if Zuffa are/are not in trouble?
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies" - Omar Little
by The Omaplatapus on Jul 20, 2010 1:24 PM EDT reply actions
well I can't pretend not to be more knowledgeable
than the average fan.
I just try to keep it honest and say what I think. I don’t always do enough thinking in advance of writing, but you guys let me know when I screw up.
What I mean by representing the fan view point is I try to avoid getting behind the scenes knowledge and just use publicly available stuff for my writing.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
thank you for the clarification mate :)
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies" - Omar Little
by The Omaplatapus on Jul 20, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Cesar Gracie/AKA Rivalry?
I thought Shields trained at AKA at least part of the time?
In fact here’s him talking about training there for the Henderson fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyLXC8ZUW9A
Interview from May:
http://squabbles.com/2010/05/jake-shields-on-his-future-in-mma/
Adam Ellington: Dana White has expressed frustration over members from AKA in the Welterweight division not wanting to fight each other. I know you’ve done some training at AKA before. If you were to sign with the UFC someday, would you have any problem with fighting guys like Jon Fitch or Josh Koscheck?
Jake Shields: I’m friends with both of those guys, but mainly we see each other at training and have known we’ll fight each other at some point.
Is there some other aspect of this rivalry I’m missing?
they're in the same neck of the woods
it’s a friendly rivalry but still a rivalry. You notice that Shields is happy to fight them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
And I suspect that is true for many of them.
The guys who push this “don’t want to fight teammates” nonsense probably already know, for the most part, how they would turn out (Kos over Fitch, Jones over Rashad, etc).
It is especially funny to me, because as a guy with primarily a judo and wrestling background teammate and friend fights happen all the time, especially at the highest levels.
I also think some is overblown – Anderson won’t fight Machida due to the depth of their friendship, but I believe both have spoken of being open to fighting other blackhouse guys.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
"The fox devises many strategies, the hedgehog only one, but he uses is very effectively." -Archilochus
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
it's such huge money though
that’s what holds these guys back. it’s not that they don’t want to fight their pals or compete with them, they just don’t want to take hundreds of thousands of dollars out of their pockets
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 20, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Very good point
Kos beating Fitch for example could greatly decrease Fitches income over the next year or two…
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." -Author Schopenhauer
Haters are gonna hate and bitches are gonna bitch...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 20, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Thats a great point
There would have to be some resentment if your teammate/friend took away your shot at the title or your chance at a big pay day.
Rec'd
The economics will eventually solve this problem
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 20, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t argue with a single point he made in his post, but I don’t care. Zuffa is doing the right thing in signing Shields, both for the sport and for their business.
sums up my feelings perfectly. could he have squeak out some more dollars? sure, but i dont really care enough when weighing it up against the fact he’s coming to the UFC to fight the best
UFC just got a great fighter who could take a few scalps. if he’s boring then so be it… its the UFC’s job to balance out the cards overall appeal and ill just enjoy his fights where ever they put him on the card

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