Brock Lesnar Is Big Business: UFC 116 Did Even Better on PPV Than Originally Thought
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:20 PM EDT
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From Dave Meltzer's Wrestling Observer (subscription only):
The latest numbers for UFC 116 seem to be reporting higher. As we figured, there appear to have been a ton of replay order buys based on all the talk about the show, including all the mainstream news show coverage after the event. Various cable estimates have ranged from 1 million to 1.28 million, and as noted, internally it is being said it's the third biggest in history, which would be a lot closer to the former number than the latter number. ... From a PPV standpoint, best per capita markets included Las Vegas, Calgary, Toronto, Minneapolis, Memphis, Dallas, Seattle, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Saskatoon, Halifax, Winnipeg, Honolulu and Cleveland.
Matt Bishop comments:
We talked about how we thought this show would do last week on the radio show. It was last Wednesday and we talked about how the hype didn't feel anything the hype for Evans/Jackson. I think I've figured that one out: It's because Brock Lesnar draws in a group of fans who won't be talking about the show the week before the fight. They just buy it. And it's clear pro-wrestling fans buy the show when Lesnar fights, so I think that explains why it didn't feel as big going in, but it could end up being bigger.
Meltzer has also commented on the unusual buy pattern for UFC 116. Not only was it a bit of a creeper, in that there were more PPV buys than the online buzz and advertising hype would have predicted, but it also did better than usual in strong pro wrestling markets and underperformed a bit in the usual MMA hot spots.
The UFC has long been building its growing audience from fans of Pro Wrestling -- be it by following wrestling with the first season of TUF, or by Ken Shamrock who was known to WWE fans. Brock Lesnar would appear to be the logical conclusion of that strategy and it's working brilliantly.
Even better, the fights at UFC 116 were all so stellar, action packed and dramatic that new fans checking out their first UFC to see Brock Lesnar had to come away impressed. I'd wager to say the UFC made a LOT of new fans that night.
This was a nice contrast to the UFC 114 card, which drew record numbers -- many of the first time PPV buyers presumably having been drawn by Kimbo Slice and his record setting ratings on TUF -- but delivered mostly sub-par fights. I'd kill to see some market research on first time PPV buyers of 114 and 116 and see which group is more likely to order a second UFC PPV.
At Yahoo Meltzer puts UFC 116 in context as part of another overall banner year:
Led by two recent shows, the May 29 card headlined by Rashad Evans beating Quinton "Rampage Jackson," and the July 3 event where Brock Lesnar defeated Shane Carwin, Zuffa LLC has already registered approximately 5.5 million buys on 10 pay-per-view events this year, including the inaugural WEC show in April. The company set the North American record for any PPV organization last year with nearly 8 million buys. Barring a slew of major injuries to headliners, which actually happened to the company last year, even conservative predictions for the rest of the year would have the company easily beating that mark.
Another possible mark would be the first year in history that one company topped the 1 million mark for individual events on three occasions. Boxing did it twice, in 1991 and 1996. UFC has cracked a million on both Jackson-Evans and Lesnar-Carwin. There is no sure-fire third match this year to pull that number, but both Lesnar vs. Cain Velasquez on Oct. 23 and Georges St. Pierre vs. Josh Koscheck in December have at least a shot at hitting the mark.
So once again, the UFC has played their strongest cards in the first half of the year. But unlike 2009, hopefully they'll be able to avoid the plague of injuries that decimated their title fights this year.
In addition to continuing to mine pro-wrestling fans, and seeking to expand into new demographic markets (expect the LA Hispanic media to be worked HARD in the build up for Lesnar-Velasquez), the UFC will also be taking a bit of a stab at boxing fans with James Toney's UFC debut at 118.
These are the good times for the UFC. Here's hoping they can continue to build slowly and steadily and help the sport penetrate the national consciousness. We're still a generation or more from being a truly mainstream sport in the U.S., until that day, MMA will remain one disaster away from collapse in the States.
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I’m curious to what you think that disaster might be? A death? Zuffa imploding would be a bigger disaster then that.
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies" - Omar Little
by The Omaplatapus on Jul 19, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
here are the doomsday scenarios that keep me up at night
1) an in ring death on a Spike TV or network broadcast
2) a totally scandalous business collapse by Zuffa. which despite the bleatings of the fanboys, could go Enron. Maybe they’re on a solid foundation, but there’s no way to know that.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i would still put 2 before 1, only because accidents happen as they do in every sport
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies" - Omar Little
by The Omaplatapus on Jul 19, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
with the amount of medical testing Zuffa does although not impossible it’s improbable that a death will occur in the octagon.
Zuffa will never go enron as long as Dana and Lorenzo are there… after 50 years and if corporate suits take over… maybe. Unlikely though, especially the way Zuffa is being established globally and with the checks and balances.
Right now the biggest death blow to the sport would be if Lorenzo, Frank and Dana would die. In 15 years even that will have less of an effect.
that's well within the realm of possibility
and I should have included it in my list.
But I’m not going to take the word of a paid shill that Zuffa is sound. Once upon a time Enron had paid shills too.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
They're not paying me
And I say they’re sound. Does that help?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 19, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Is logic really a Zuffa employee?
I read on another thread someone had a theory that he worked in the marketing department, but I can’t imagine someone who wroked a legitimate day job for Zuffa would be able to post as often (or as much, he does go on ranting sprees pretty frequently) as he (or she?) does.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
RIP Sherdog (6/26/10)
It’s reality… Even if it’s a private company everything is third party verified. Cuban wouldnt be a bond holder… Abu Dhabi wouldnt be investing hundreds of millions, etc…
Lorenzo wouldnt be spending all his time in a shell company or something that has any real chance of unraveling. No matter how successful it is right now the future viability of this enterprise is immense and will be worth alot more in the near future.
You’re right about third party verification.
Rich guys can higher good lawyers to diligence their investments. Post Enron, when doing diligence, people are very weary of entities with lots of off-balance sheet entities and other constructs used to hide debt. It’s highly unlikely that they’d be engaging in the type of accounting shenanigans that Enron did. The fact Zuffa can raise money is the market telling you that Zuffa is healthy enough to attract investments. An Enron type implosion is very unlikely.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Jul 19, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s no reason to believe they’ll “go Enron.” And Enron didn’t pay people to hype its stock; rather it was bullying i-banks (who wanted the high fees generated by their shady off balance sheet deals) into pressuring their respective internal research analyst departments to continue to give Enron’s stock high ratings, in spite of any warning signs to the contrary. Enron had to keep its stock price high in order to keep its off balance sheet entities off its balance sheet. They failed to do so and ultimately folded as a result. I highly doubt, if Zuffa has problems, that they’re anything at all like Enron’s.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Jul 19, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
there are a million ways to collapse
Enron was the 2001 model, Bear Sterns was the 2008 model.
ANY entity — corporate or individual — can suddenly collapse.
Would you have sold Tiger Woods public image short a year ago?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Again
Bear Stearns (or any of the IBs) value was built on investors not having a clue on where their income was coming from and the associated risks from derivatives. We know where the Zuffa is getting its money and in fact it is independent sources that provide the buy rates/live gate—-this isn’t even remotely comparable.
Could Zuffa collapse for business reasons? Yes. Could the NFL collapse for business reasons? Yes.
Not afraid to nitpick
I'm just being a jerk
When I think of Enron, I think of particular type of collapse, whereas I think you’re using it more broadly to signify a shocking corporate collapse, which is fine. No one saw either Bear Sterns or Enron coming until it was too late. I see what you’re saying and agree that you never know, but we also have no particular reason to think a collapse is imminent, so it’s all just so much lovely speculation.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Jul 19, 2010 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
i'm just saying
we’ve seen how vulnerable seemingly strong corporations can be to collapse. when one corp controls the sport in the US and more and more the world, it’s easy to imagine collapse.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It's a lot easier to imagine continued business success
In fact I would say as they further cement their monopoly, it’s yet still easier to imagine their business success.
We know they are doing 1M buy shows from independent sources and the minimum price on those is $50, we know that not a single show has been unsuccessful….in fact, every last one of their shows is generating more gross revenue than any other promotion in the industry.
Not afraid to nitpick
A lot of people saw Bear Stearns and Enron coming
No one listened to them (and they got to make a shitload of money shorting the companies), but they were there.
Not afraid to nitpick
True. I was using “no one” to mean almost “no one.” Everything on the Internet gets exaggerated, including the claims in my posts.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Jul 23, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think that Zuffa is shifting debt and “selling” assets to off balance sheet entities in order to prop their share price up given that they’re not a publicly traded company, and who’s playing Skilling’s role at Zuffa if the UFC “could go Enron.” In short, I’m not sure the Enron analogy is apt. I’m only giving you a hard time. You’re right that there’s no way to know how good of shape they’re in since they’re not a public company.
"If a dick don't get hard offa cocaine, what would you axe it?" O.D.B.
"To be is to be the value of a bound variable." W.V.O Quine
"I shoot. I score. He shoots. I score." Dan Gable.
by The Darkness on Jul 19, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
In addition to continuing to mine pro-wrestling fans, and seeking to expand into new demographic markets
I have to admit, I’ve completely stopped watching wrestling in favor of MMA. More compelling at the moment.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
I'm curious
if you don’t mind — could I ask your age?
how long you’ve been into MMA?
when you segued from pro-wrestling to MMA?
when you first started watching MMA
when did you first start watching pro wrestling?
were you ever a boxing fan?
thanks!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't mind
- Age: 22
- I’ve been into MMA since the 2nd Tito-Chuck fight. That’s the first fight I can remember that received a lot of hype from ESPN and etc.
- I completely stopped watching pro-wrestling this year after Wrestlemania. The championship belts changed hands so many times that it’s hard to keep up with wrestling anymore. The WWE has made a lot of mistakes lately that resemble the same mistakes as the WCW back in the day.
- End of 2006. I’ve caught up on the history of MMA through this site and old videos.
- I started watching wrestling when I was a kid. My dad took me to one of the first Royal Rumbles in Sacramento. I was hooked.
- I am a boxing fan. Boxing is quite compelling depending on who is fighting and the style of fighter. I like the Manny Pacquiao and despise fighters like Bernard Hopkins.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
thanks much!
my one man focus group.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I smell a new Kid Nate post.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
It would be an interesting post to see when we became MMA fans and what other combat sports we watched.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
yeah
I’m trying to figure out how to do it best
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I started watching mma when my friend and I accidentally ordered a Pancrase tape from the back of a ProWrestling Illustrated. It said hybrid wrestling…we made the assumption it was some blood and guts stuff from japan…boy were we wrong. 1996?
I saw Bas Rutten KO jason delucia with body shots and though, “hey, this isn’t a work!”
Glory.
by bigstupidsmile on Jul 19, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
My first encounter with MMA was through YouTube. I had heard of MMA through WWE when Shamrock was there.
After going on YouTube and searching “fights” I came across a highlight video. The first highlight tape I saw online was a tribute to Wand and I was hooked. I was convinced that Wand was the baddest man alive. Me and my friends started buying a few UFC PPV’s then after TUF 1 we bought them all. But Wand is the reason I started watching.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
It was "The Crow" for me,
with that dirty spinning back kick followed by the flying knee to the body on Charles McCarthy. That combo blew me away and I needed to watch more.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Cro-Cop for me, I started researching Mirko after watching him break Bob Sapp’s face in K-1….I remember being so shocked that such a little (relatively speaking) guy could thrash such a beast (pun-intended). I’m Proud that Mirko got me into the sport, but ashamed I always pick against him now :(
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Jul 19, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah Wand was 1 and Cro Cop was 1a. Wand just got me because he looked so mean and he looked like it wasn’t an act. It looked like he truly wanted to maim the person in front of him. Cro Cop was probably the second or third highlight tape I watched. Once I found out he was a former Croatian Special Forces officer I started liking him even more. It was almost like his badassness was verified.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
Wand is a bad man….I’m sure if Mirko had’nt of gotten me hooked Wandy would’ve. Either way PRIDE was the shit.
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Jul 21, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Cro Cop for me too (see sig)
My friend who worked in the supplements shop at my gym used to pass the time by watching youtube, and one day decided to show me what he was always watching. He said, ’it’s MMA, but I think you will be best off starting by knowing this guy. He says that his right kick will put you in hospital, and his left kick will put you in the cemetary’
several head kick KO’s and a brutal knee to someone shooting on him later, I was a fan.
Forever indebted to CroCop's left leg for getting me into MMA
by Well Read Idiot on Jul 19, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Mir vs. Sims II was the first fight I ever watched
It was my freshman year of college in 2007. And then over Christmas break when I went home, they were showing PRIDE on FSN late at night, and I saw Cro Cop and was hooked. When I got back to campus after Christmas I asked my roommate, this jacked-up hockey player from Chicago, to tell me which fights I should watch, since he had been into MMA for a while.
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 19, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny…My CroCop experience happened in my junior year of college…I guess Mirko attracts kids that have skull fulls of malted barley and hops.
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
"A good word that I got from the Mike Tyson Documentary... I'm going to absolutley decimate this motherf**ker, I haven't been in the dictionary to see what it actually means but I'm guessing it's going to be something in the way of just killing a motherf**ker." -Paul Daley (on the definition of Decimate)
by WeaponElDeem on Jul 21, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, I was thinking of doing something like this
But I shrugged it off as I thought people would lie and try to make it seem like they were following MMA during the early days of Pancrase.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 19, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
only on Sherdog where everyone is either a TUF Noob or have attended UFC 1
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
Perhaps I should do it
And make fancy charts with the results
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 19, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you use glitter
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
by DayGeaux on Jul 19, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dont know if you only needed/wanted 49'ers response
I’m 21 and first saw UFC/MMA when I was young bc my family had a black box (got all ppv for free) so I remember Royce Gracie, Shamrock, Tank, etc. I had always been a big wwf*/wcw/ecw fan. Went to many live wrestling shows. I stopped watching WWE religiously in I’d say 06ish give or take a year. I knew who Tito Ortiz was when he was champ but didn’t know much else and didn’t know when to watch mma. Then I saw a Chuck/Rampage replay in Pride & was immediately a Rampage fan. I’d say I didn’t start watching UFC again until TUF 4-5, but even then my mma knowledge Was/is based on a lot of the US mma scene. I try to use bloody elbow and YouTube as much as I can to go back and learn about what I missed.
by seanerk88 on Jul 20, 2010 4:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
After seeing more of your questions
I have a group of friends that order every ufc and everybody chips in but they’re for the most part strictly Zuffa fans. I live in Boston so other sports here are still very popular amongst myself and other friends. My closest friends don’t know much about MMA and have refered to strikeforce as UFC or “the fights”. I’ve always been a huge baseball, basketball, football fan and some hockey depending on how the bruins are doing. I’ve never been big on boxing or ordered a boxing ppv but have etched replays of big name fights. I’d rank mma as a squash with the rest of my favorite sports but would prefer to watch mma If a home team wasn’t playing.
by seanerk88 on Jul 20, 2010 4:06 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm the same age as 49er16,
and I have never been a wrestling fan. I couldn’t stand the story lines and acting and couldn’t just accept the fact that it was “fake”. I found MMA on youtube in early 2005 and was hooked ever since. I’ve actually watched more boxing since I started watching MMA as I become more of a fan of fight sports.
I think MMA is more compelling to my demographic because most of the guys look like we do, and we can go to the gym and work on the same things we see on PPV and even try them ourselves on a smaller show if we work hard enough.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
good feedback
very interesting.
were you a football fan before? soccer? baseball? basketball?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Let's see...
Hockey since a young child. Then football for most of high school (while I played). MMA since back when I started University. Baseball through University as a sport to throw on and have a few on summer evenings. Soccer since Toronto got a team in 2007. Basketball on and off with Toronto’s fortunes (we’re a bandwagon city like that).
My top five now would read:
1. Hockey
2. MMA
3. Soccer
4. Football
5. Baseball
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
My Canadian-ness
probably clashes with an American 22-year old. I’d guess a typical American my age would follow Football first, then MMA, then Baseball. We Canadians just like our fighting sports. Just youtube “Wendell Clark vs. Bob Probert” and hear Maple Leaf Gardens go wild for some hockey violence.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed
My friends and I switched to MMA because it’s more appealing. I’m sure kids still love wrestling, but people our age love MMA because it isn’t as convoluted at wrestling.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
Care for more replies?
Mine is a little backward, so it might be better written than in the above short format or in a poll. Or I could be smart and just save it for your poll post.
I'll do so as well in case you're curious
Age: 30
Into MMA: roughtly 5 years ago, which was around the same time I quit watching WWE, though it never really occurred to me that the 2 were related. I had watched WWE since I was a kid and I was never that into boxing, other than “everyone pitch in 5 bucks so we can watch Tyson” type of stuff.
Favorite sports now:
1. Football/Baseball
3. MMA—I have especially enjoyed the amount of quality coverage available online (Baseball has this as well, though in my opinion other sports lack in this area), which has helped ease the fairly steep learning curve. Most would probably agree that once you can really appreciate the ground the sport takes off for you. I don’t think that I could have developed that appreciate just through UFC PPVs where you learn nothing lol
4. Basketball
5. Hockey
why not
31, nyc area
First saw grainy clips of old fights back on the halcyon days of the internet back in the very late 90s and early 00s when i was in college… never really started to get seriously into it until about 2007 or so. I’ve since spent I dunno how many hours going back and looking at earlier fights both online and on dvd. I, in fact, just watched the full Quarry/Starnes fight for the first time (had only seen rd 3 previously) right before this.
Never was seriously into boxing. I’m aware of it and have a casual familiarity with it simply because I like all sports, but I’ve never watched a full 12-rd fight once. Used to love pro wrestling. being in NYC, there were always tons of WWF/E broadcasts, as well as WCW (WCCW), NWA and later ECW stuff on cable. Going to school near Philly let me watch ECW live a few times. I’ve since kind of grown out of it, and pretty much left completely when the last round of big stars (Rock, Austin, Lesnar to some extent) left the business. MMA has really kind of killed any serious interest in pro wrestling tho.
in order:
Football
MMA
Baseball
Basketball
uh… golf? soccer? I tried out for the volleyball team my senior year in HS and just missed the last cut! I’ll go with sports in general.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jul 19, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
for all the hate he receives
its amazing how many people starting watching MMA because of Tito. I got my start watching MMA with the first Tito/Ken Shamrock fight. I knew Shamrock from WWE and wanted to find out who this Huntington Beach Bad Boy was.
This would make a great poll.
I was a HUGE wrestling but stopped watching around 2002-2003 as it got stale. When wrestling peaked around the turn of the millenium, it was the best male-oriented soap opera ever devised.
WWE was consistently hilarious and action-packed, and the storylines and characters were built so that you always wanted to see what happened next, so the PPV’s were always worth buying.
For me, no moment in MMA has matched up to seeing Mick Foley (as Mankind) win the title from the Rock. Manufactured or not, it was amazing entertainment.
I went to a Monday Night Raw show in 2008. Amazing live production values but I was bored to death by the characters. Not one thing made me want to tune in for the next show.
The WWE is actually suffering from the alphabet soup syndrome with all the different brands – Raw, Smackdown, ECW.
by MMABookworm on Jul 19, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
For me, no moment in MMA has matched up to seeing Mick Foley (as Mankind) win the title from the Rock. Manufactured or not, it was amazing entertainment.
Agreed. The crowd reaction from the MSG crowd is something I doubt we will ever see in MMA.
The WWE is actually suffering from the alphabet soup syndrome with all the different brands – Raw, Smackdown, ECW.
Agreed as well. Too much saturation with the different brands. It was easier to watch when Raw was the only show every week.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
that was absolutely the peak of WWE
i guess for me, once I realized a few years later that they’d never top the Rock/Mick era I gave it up and don’t miss it all. the WWE monopoly really killed it for me as well, though I have friends who still try to sell me on TNA, so maybe wrestling is getting better now.
Word!
I feel the same way.
For me, no moment in MMA has matched up to seeing Mick Foley (as Mankind) win the title from the Rock. Manufactured or not, it was amazing entertainment.
One of my favorite moments was seeing Stone Cold’s face turn vs Bret at Wrestlemania 13. Hard to compare that to an MMA moment but Akiyama vs. Leben at 116 is pretty close.
I also agree about their lack of new and compelling characters. I doubt they’ll ever find another Stone Cold, Mick Foley or the Rock in this decade. The in-ring product has somewhat improved but the mic skills and personalities are gone. Where are the managers?
RIP, Coach Wooden.
Thank you, Geoff Petrie.
the UFC will also be taking a bit of a stab at boxing fans with James Toney's UFC debut at 118.
i can’t think of a better way to ALIENATE boxing fans from ufc then by throwing in toney against a 47 yr old wrestler who has no intention of making a fight out of it. the boxing fans who do tune in just to see couture rub his chest on toney’s face will probably get the wrong impression about the sport.
how is Couture's style NOT "making a fight of it"?
is only standing and banging fighting?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly.
I don’t know how much Dana wants to bring boxing fans to the sport rather than just humiliate them because he knows he doesn’t need them to keep growing MMA.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
well
that’s not quite true.
I think that a lot of the older 40+ year old boxing fans are a lost cause, but he desperately wants the 20-something Hispanics and African-Americans who still see boxing as THE fight sport to become occasional UFC watchers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
I know that demographic very well. I can’t speak for the hispanic boxing crowd (the most rabid), but the white, post-40 male crowd I know that have followed boxing for years have dived into the MMA pool. My Dad loves it, and he’s in his 60’s…
One way or another, they are a tougher market to crack.
Easier / more cost effective to get kids / teens / video gamers and keep them for 60+ yrs
than it is to convert 40 – 60 + yr olds and keep them for a fraction of the time
20-somethings interested in ANY trend is a lot more difficult to maintain
than an older group. they are much more likely to switch allegiances to the next “new” hot activity and sport. Sure, the younger demographic is more desirable advertising dollar-wise, but with the graying baby-boomers taking up more and more of the population, you have to tap into it if you can.
My Dad jumped right on board,
he and his group of 50+ guys get together for every PPV. I actually had nothing to do with it, I just assumed he would hate it and was surprised when he invited me to a PPV viewing party.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
to the pure boxing fans that tune in to the fight, yes. to the MMA fan, absolutely not as we can appreciate all styles/aspects of the “sport.” I have a few friends who live and breathe boxing and always put down MMA in favor of boxing. I’m afraid that the only thing that may sway their opinions on the matter is if Randy either KHTFO or ground and pounds him into TKO stoppage. even then though, you’ll always have the haters out there
"she told me she was on the pill." me
Rec'd
Wrestling is a mixed martial ard.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 19, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not what he meant
And you know it. He’s talking about the crossover appeal of the matchup.
It will not be a fight that leads boxing fans to leap to MMA. They will see two old men humping against a chain-link fence. It’s certainly effective and a legitimate MMA strategy, but this is a discussion specifically about the crossover appeal of such a fight, as it’s an attempt to branch out into a new market.
I see "chest humping" MORE in boxing.
I don’t see how Coulture gets discounted as a fighter when Evander Holyfield has done that style of fighting for the better part of his career?
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Jul 19, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Myth of Couture matches
I think boxing fans have the expectation that MMA has two guys with thin gloves on “unskillfully” defending themselves and banging it out directly in front of one another until someone falls out.
Boxing fans are kinda “elitist”, in my opinion and really don’t understand the complexities of the support and how MMA requires a fighter to have an all around game and not just a one-dimensional one. I say this as I have some very avid boxing friends who are slowly coming over to MMA, but tend to hold on to misconceptions as to why MMA is not “real fighting”.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Jul 19, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana is probably smart enough to know that boxing fans that aren’t already on board with MMA probably won’t switch. This is a spectacle designed to shout to the public that MMA has replaced boxing as the top combat sport.
by MMABookworm on Jul 19, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
have to disagree
it’s a shorter jump from boxing to MMA than it is from stick and ball sports. And with HBO saying there’s only a 5% overlap between boxing PPV customers and MMA PPV customers, that is a huge opportunity. Dana’s no fool, he wants to get those eyeballs.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Vince comments
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
by DamnSevern on Jul 19, 2010 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Love the Canadian representation,
especially in the thriving metropolises of Saskatoon, Winnepeg and Halifax. One of those three cities and Calgary should see the UFC before Vancouver gets a second card. Winnepeg already has an amazing venue for it in the MTS Centre, while Calgary has the Saddledome.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 12:40 PM EDT reply actions
One of those three cities and Calgary should see the UFC before Vancouver gets a second card.
QFT!
I can’t believe that Edmonton got the WEC instead of Calgary. I really wanted to go but just couldn’t make up there.
It’s surprising that so many of the western provinces are under-served for live MMA, Especially ones that are sanctioned for fighting already.
Under served for major-league MMA perhaps,
but you guys have a lot of regional shows/promotions to fill the void. Try living in Ontario, where the closest events are in a province that is trying to kill all MMA except for the UFC (Quebec).
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Indian Reservations
I’ve been to a couple shows on reservations here in Ontario but it’s pretty low rent stuff and you often see the cops waiting just off the reservation for the fighters and promoters so they can arrest them.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Yeah man,
it’s really sketchy. I looked into fighting on one of those cards back when I was training full-time and it just wasn’t worth it.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Where in Ontario are you from? I live in Toronto and a few years ago there was a really good write up in Now Magazine about the “Rumble on the Reservation” promotion and Ken Hayashi’s opposition to the sport.
A lot has changed since then but it’s a good article if you can find it somewhere online.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
I think I remember reading that article.
I’m from Oakville but trained when I was going to school in London.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
best per capita markets included Las Vegas, Calgary, Toronto, Minneapolis, Memphis, Dallas, Seattle, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Saskatoon, Halifax, Winnipeg, Honolulu and Cleveland.
Go Canada!
See above^^
hahaha, Dana has already admitted that we are the Mecca of MMA.
by gavingavinkindgavin on Jul 19, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd like to see Stu Hart's dungeon converted into an MMA gym.
He basically taught catch-wrestling there, anyway.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Graphs I would love to see
past 5 years on monthly increments, PPV buys for MMA, Pro Wrestling, and Boxing. I’d like to see each major category broken down into organizations (ie the MMA would have differeent lines for SF, UFC, Dream, etc), then a combination graph with a single line for each MMA, Boxing, Wrassling for comparison.
If someone could give me the numbers or show me where to get them, I’d do the visualization myself.
by Cocytus on Jul 19, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
UFC/MMA PPV numbers are unofficial. WWE makes a lot of money but it’s barely growing. And boxing, is, well, boxing. If they do Manny/Floyd, they get a huge temporary pop, then back to business as usual.
by MMABookworm on Jul 19, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
do a fan post and call for that data
I bet we can put it together
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I do not post much but I feel compelled to say nice artical.
by Noot on Jul 19, 2010 12:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
thanks!
always appreciated
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
… From a PPV standpoint, best per capita markets included Las Vegas, Calgary, Toronto, Minneapolis, Memphis, Dallas, Seattle, Phoenix, Los Angeles, Saskatoon, Halifax, Winnipeg, Honolulu and Cleveland.
Reppin Saskatoon since ’82 bitches.
YAMATO DAMASHII
follow me on twitter. http://twitter.com/RileyfromCanada
well I've got another post in the can
on that topic.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking forward to it!
It is a shame that 110 did such poor numbers, it was an excellent card.
I really think they did a bad job communicating that that card would not be on tape delay.
well trying to hype a show
when all the fighters and PR people are in Australia and 90% of the press is in the States was probably the biggest factor.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I am on MMA sites all the time, and I wasn't sure about a tape delay until a few days before.
Many of the people I normally watch with were sure it would be a tape delay and didn’t care to fork over the $$ / made other plans.
I agree that UFC 116 was huge for first time viewers. It was the perfect event for people to see and enjoy. A long time friend of mine who never watches MMA, and never understood the hype, came to see it that night at the bar with me and he was blown away at how crazy people got during the Lesnar match. But enough with the personal anecdotes.
The only way, in my mind, that MMA will become a cultural mainstay is when a) the new generation of kids are growing up wanting to either train in one or all aspects of MMA over traditional martial arts. And b) the mainstream media as we know it retires. And by that, I mean the media is run by dinosaurs who won’t ever give MMA a chance. When the old guard is eventually replaced with the new up-and-coming media darlings who are MMA fans, that’s when you will see a significant paradigm shift. Until then, I don’t think MMA will ever be taken seriously, or seen as being more than just a fad.
what a minute!!!
What about all of those posts we see on blogs & forums saying Dana White has taken the UFC as far as it goes? We’ve been seeing them for a long time…at some point they have to come true right?
/sarcasm
Totally unsuported assertion
These are the good times for the UFC. Here’s hoping they can continue to build slowly and steadily and help the sport penetrate the national consciousness. We’re still a generation or more from being a truly mainstream sport in the U.S., until that day, MMA will remain one disaster away from collapse in the States.
Literally who edits Kid Nate’s stuff sometime?? I’m fine with articles attacking Zuffa for being sketchy or unscrupulous. In those articles I don’t mind when Nate makes the case that Zuffa and MMA could collapse, but this article doesn’t support that assertion at all. Im fact this article if anything supports the idea that MMA is rapidly growing and the strongest American PPV sport. I think even one paragraph could have been used to justify that point if it even needed to be made in this article.
I didn't think it required supporting
do you think the UFC could survive an in-cage death on live tv?
do you think MMA in the US could survive the sudden collapse of Zuffa?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The collapse of Zuffa no, but I think there should be some support of why Zuffa can collapse although in my opinion that’s another article, but I guess that’s up to you.
A death I don’t know. I think that’s an interesting discussion.
A death I don’t know. I think that’s an interesting discussion
Since wrestling has already been mentioned a number of times, how would this compare to Owen Hart?
Some more thought on the Zuffa thing
I think MMA needs the UFC brand in the US, I don’t know if they need Zuffa. It would be a major, major blow if Zuffa collapsed, but as long as someone got the UFC brand I think the comeback PPV would still do 200K buys if I was running Zuffa. It would be a long road back and Zuffa has expertise, but not solely dependent on Zuffa. If the brand got help up in bankruptcy court then it might die.
That’s an entirely different scenario to me. He died accidentally in the leadup to a fake wrestling match. His death wasn’t caused by someone intentionally beating his ass. Death in an MMA match would typically be the result of someone getting punched, kicked or slammed. In other words, an MMA death is very likely to result from the MMA contest itself as opposed to an accident attendant with the contest.
"He died accidentally in the leadup to a fake wrestling match."
Does fake wrestling have more merit than real fighting though.
Would an in ring death there be more or less. Would the government want to prevent them from continuing there fight sport soap opera if someone died. Just curious about people’s thoughts.
The Benoit
incident had bigger repercussions for pro-wrestling, imo. There were “Dateline” type specials, hard-nosed interview grillings of McMahon, and real nasty publicity besides.
The fakeness of wrestling makes it easier to recover from an in-ring death
Wrestlers aren’t really trying to hurt each other, so when things like Owen Hart dying or even Droz being paralyzed due to a botched powerbomb happen it’s largely viewed as an unfortunate accident. Same goes for serious injuries/deaths in stick-and-ball sports. But someone literally getting beaten to death at a UFC event can’t be written off like that. It would get significant mainstream press, give lots of ammunition to the critics who want to see MMA banned for being unsafe/barbaric/too violent, and probably cause a lot of people who’ve never even watched a fight before to form extremely negative (though ignorant) opinions about the sport. I don’t know if the outcry would be loud enough to get a bunch of politicians lobbying for it to be banned, though.
Wrestling certainly rebounded from the death...
Though I seem to recall they did take a hit for a little while after that. It’s been awhile so I don’t know if I’m remembering that right though. It probably helped that people didn’t realize Owen was dead immediately when the accident happened.
it probably couldnt have done much because there wasnt the blogosphere of today to make a mountain or to make a mole hill out of it.
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies" - Omar Little
by The Omaplatapus on Jul 19, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess you haven't followed the business press much in the last decade
ANY corporate entity can collapse and quite suddenly, particularly if it’s privately held and there is no way to check the books.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The sudden business collapses also largely didn't have easily verifiable sources of income
Which the UFC obviously does.
Not afraid to nitpick
Great point
One that I’m a little ashamed I didn’t think of.
Giving this more thought, clearly UFC won’t just collapse on its own. There are too many revenues and the cost structure is very attractive(much to Kid Nate’s chagrin).
I also think the UFC could survive a death. Despite the impact some fans might actually like that aspect (sickening, but true). Sure it could stall growth, into the mainstream, but now the sport is significantly entrenched from a regulatory standpoint. As much as I hate cronisim in Athletic Commissions it creates a pretty strong incentive for the continued sanction of MMA events even if there is a death.
Zuffa could become over-leveraged as they siphon off capital for other ventures, but they have an atm machine in the middle east and from plenty of other willing investors.
The only scenario I can see is where legal challenges force Zuffa out of business and put the UFC in a lengthy bankruptcy proceeding. Extended time out of business could potentially weaken the UFC brand and mean that Dana, Fertitta, etc could no longer run the company. Then potentially a company could buy the UFC that had no clue (CBS) thus killing the brand.
So yeah I think its still not imminent at all.
I’m not optimistic about either scenario. The latter’s a little more different to visualize. The former, for all the regulation and pre-fight screening is probably still possible. I think if that happened, you’d see EVERY critic of the UFC/MMA come after it in full force. Maybe I’m just pessimistic though.
Nate
This isn’t what i’m used to form you. Where’s the “UFC in it’s death throes” article?! I need something to be outraged at here. That last line isn’t gonna cut it!
Heh, really though, good read.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Interesting read
I only have one microquibble:
the hype didn’t feel anything the hype for Evans/Jackson
Maybe this is a transatlantic thing but over here in the UK the hype for Lesnar-Carwin was massive (by MMA standards), easily eclipsing what surrounded Evans-Jackson. I remember looking at my f.book homepage that afternoon and being really stunned by how many people’s statuses were things like “WAR LESNAR!” or “GO CARWIN!”.
Possibly it’s just do do with Rampage and Evans being much less well known over here but I thought I’d throw that point out
"The Underground. It's the best site in MMA . . . It's kind of a go-to site for the fighters. I think it's the best forum." - Joe Lauzon
Only the top line was suppose to be blockquoted there
Man, I really am rubbish on computers…
"The Underground. It's the best site in MMA . . . It's kind of a go-to site for the fighters. I think it's the best forum." - Joe Lauzon
interesting
it just didn’t feel as big as UFC 114 here in the States. The 3 week prime time special for 114 really built the buzz.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It is possible that the yapping of Evans and Page appeal more to NA audiences as well.
Some fighters / character / personalities translate a little better is all
There was a bit of a "race" things that made it bigger here in the US
That probably didn’t translate well to other countries.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 19, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a combination of things.
Pro-wrestling is now like a spoof of MMA (movie hot shots versus Rambo)… and Boxing is an inferior product.
The WWE is transitioning back to the cartoon market (kids) and Boxing isnt generating any new fans from Zuffa’s target demo like they were…
UFC hasnt peaked yet in North America and it’s not even close. It will never go up in a straight line, But the metrics are so good that you’re gonna continue having an up trend then correction/consolidation followed by an uptrend for the foreseeable future.
When the 18-34 year olds of today become grandpas then we’ll be closer to the relative ceilings.
by mmalogic on Jul 19, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
ufc 121
As I stated on mma nation a couple weeks ago, if they throw page/forest or any top 10 fighter for that matter on 121 as co main event for lesner/velasquez that ppv will do record numbers. Better than 100
Just more proof that Brock is probably the most known MMA fighter in the mainstream media
The show didn’t get a lot of promotion and it didn’t need that much. The only places I saw mentioning the fight outside of MMA media were the ESPN interviews with Josh Elliot. Unless you put him up against someone who is completely horrible, Brock with the UFC belt is guaranteed to bring around 1 million buys IMO.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Probably?
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 19, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Good article Nate...
but didn’t Kimbo fight at UFC 113, not 114? I’d highlight that part from the post, but I’m on my blackberry.
Twitter.com/mmagroundnpound
www.mmagroundnpound.com
by bigtim on Jul 19, 2010 3:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
UFC 114 was built off Kimbo because
Rampage and Rashad coached TUF.
I should do a whole post on that because it’s pretty clever the way they buried Kimbo on UFC 113 and not 114. They drained him and passed his mojo on to Rashad and Rampage and then dumped Kimbo’s useless ass.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jul 19, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ah, I see what you meant. My fault, sorry Nate.
Twitter.com/mmagroundnpound
www.mmagroundnpound.com
by bigtim on Jul 19, 2010 7:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Have to give the man his credit Brock earned his huge payday. Anyone knows if Sexyama got a piece of the ppv?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
It won't be as huge as it should be though
He really should make 8-10 million as he drew the number by himself and was 600-800K over the UFC average. That’s an extra 13-17 million in PPV only revenue alone.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 19, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
my bet is that he did
there’s got to be a reason he’s only on the biggest PPV cards and wasn’t on UFC 110 for example.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
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