Strikeforce on PPV: Bobby Lashley and Dave Batista Are the Best Options Available
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 5:00 PM EDT
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This post is going to be a little like that ill-fated O.J. Simpson book. You remember, the one about how he committed the double murder? Now I don't believe Strikeforce is ready for Pay Per View. But if they did it, here is how it would happen.
First and foremost, I disagree with my colleague Brent Brookhouse. Strikeforce's biggest matchup isn't Alistair Overeem-Fedor Emelianenko or any other fight targeted exclusively at hardcore fans. That's the mentality that put Affliction under. A few hundred thousand care enough about that fight to watch it for free. A quarter of them might buy it on PPV. We're aiming higher. We'll cater to the hardcore in a bit, but first thing first:
Main Event: Bobby Lashley vs. Dave Batista
Lashley on his own isn't a proven draw. But as we've seen with Wrestlemania 23, he's capable of creating massive interest with the right matchup. This is that matchup. No one knows what Batista might bring to the game. He's a neophyte for sure, untrained and unskilled. But he's an excellent athlete, like most WWE stars. More importantly? He knows how to sell a fight.
There's little doubt that WWE fans have helped create the UFC boom. The fans left over from WWE RAW fueled The Ultimate Fighter's success and Brock Lesnar was an immediate factor at the box office for the UFC. Now we all know that Lesnar has succeeded in the cage because of his stellar amateur wrestling background and his work ethic. But that's largely irrelevant. If you're Strikeforce, you need to get on the radar and draw eyeballs. That's the part Batista and Lashley should be able to do and do well.
Co-Main Event: Fedor Emelianenko vs. Fabricio Werdum
At Bloody Elbow we can tell you first hand the name Fedor Emelianenko means something. Behind Brock Lesnar, it's probably the best name in the industry at drawing viewers to your site and can keep hardcore fans engaged in argument for hours. Adding Fedor to the card is perfect; Lashley and Batista can draw in a new contingent of WWE fans, while Fedor and Werdum rematch one of the most memorable upsets of all-time. I think this fight is a better fit than either man against the untested (at the box office) Alistair Overeem. Fans in the United States haven't gotten to know Overeem yet. We'll introduce him to the world on the undercard in a highlight package.
145 Pound Women's Title: Cyborg Santos vs. Erin Toughill
With due respect to Toughill, it doesn't matter so much who fills this slot against Cyborg. Cindy Dandois or another unknown face will do nicely as well. Women's MMA will immediately differentiate the Strikeforce product from the UFC and Cyborg never disappoints. Plus, unlike most Strikeforce cards, they can use this megacard to build another fight.
Gina Carano Tuneup Fight
If Strikeforce is serious about making this work, they need to come with guns blazing. Bringing Carano back sends a signal that this card is something worth watching. And, while you can't count on the MMA gods to cooperate, it is about time Strikeforce started building future main event on their undercard. This is one way to do it.
Dan Henderson vs. Gegard Moussassi
Coming off a devastating loss to Jake Shields, Henderson can fight at his preferred weight in a matchup he should likely win. The winner can fight Muhammed Lawal who should be positioned ringside.
Robbie Lawler vs. Melvin Manhoef II
It's always nice to start things off with a bang, isn't it?
That's a collection of matchups that I think can sell. Can it do well enough to make up the cost of all that name talent? That's the real question and the conundrum for anyone who isn't the UFC trying to enter the PPV market. There is enough talent out there outside of Zuffa's grasp to draw 100-200,000 PPV buys. But it's expensive talent, making the show cost prohibitive. My advice to Strikeforce is not to do it. Build some talent on your Showtime shows. Create an organic build to a fight fans care about. Let things percolate a bit. Some of the most successful cards of all time for the UFC have been the result of issues that were allowed to linger a bit. Your time will come. But if you have to do PPV now? Here is how it should happen.
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I agree they should have Fedor vs. Werdum co headline, but I think they should be the main event. Nothing wrong with having a borderline freakshow, but making them the main headliners takes a bit of cred away from Strikeforce (which they need to build, not give up).
Something weird about having two pro wrestlers put on a match too, maybe if both had been fighting for a while, but with Lashley still unproven and Batista being brand new… I’d feel like I was watching WWE instead of MMA.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
How many people will suspect a work when they hear two WWE guys headlining a MMA fight?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
some
The sad part is when they wrestle, some people think it not a work.
"You think you're too cool for school but I got a newsflash for you, Walter Cronkite. You aren't. "
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 14, 2010 5:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
mobile commenting brutal :(
"You think you're too cool for school but I got a newsflash for you, Walter Cronkite. You aren't. "
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 14, 2010 5:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A lot more than some. Heck there were people out there who thought Brock Lesnar’s fight was a work (and a terrible pro wrestling match). You put two pro wrestlers in there and hope that casual pro wrestling fans tune in then you are going to get quite a few people who end up thinking this is just crappy pro wrestling.
That was what I was getting at. People are dumb. But who knows? Bobby’s submission win looked a little suspect most people.
"You think you're too cool for school but I got a newsflash for you, Walter Cronkite. You aren't. "
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 14, 2010 9:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I suspect
That if that fight does happen, Batista will get worked.
That’s not even fair, putting up a guy with several pro fights and an extensive amateur wrestling backgound against a buff dude with no experience whatsoever. Big money fight though, I agree that those matchups together could sell a PPV. Probably for around what the WEC PPV did.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 14, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that Lashley would get worked
I disagree about the numbers though. I just don’t think anyone will do those kind of number outside of the UFC
I just have a lot of trouble w/this imaginary card because the Fedor fight is the only one I care about. Lashley and Batista as the main event seems laughable even if $kala were still running MMA shows. Manhoeff should probably not be losing to cans then getting PPV rematches and Henderson vs. Moussasi just doesn’t interest me.
I would be more excited for a Cyborg vs. Cyborg match than Cyborg/Toughill. Gina beating up some hand-picked opponent is just eye candy. The whole card lacks substance and relevance. If it is meant to prove the original point that Strikeforce is NOT ready for PPV then I completely agree.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jul 14, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Toughill past her prime?
She’s 3-0 in the last 2 years, hardly what i’d call washed up. Not to mention that one of those wins came against Cyborg’s last opponent.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 14, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
How does it lack substance?
Fedor vs. Werdum, Henderson vs. Moussasi, and Cyborg vs. Toughill are all meaningful matchups. From a competitive standpoint, Cyborg vs. Toughill is probably the most substantive matchup you could make in women’s MMA at this point.
om a competitive standpoint, Cyborg vs. Toughill is probably the most substantive matchup you could make in women’s MMA at this point.
Not really.
Erin is past her prime, if she ever had one. It’s been over a year since her last fight and she looked horrible in it. She had trouble with a 135 noob from Alaska. Cyborg should eat her up pretty easily IMO.
Are there any women out there that Cyborg wouldn’t eat up?
But if you are stupid, you will be beaten with a stick - Proverbs 10:13
by Ominous on Jul 14, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The fact that 145 is somehow the representative weight class for Women’s MMA really tells the story. Gina made a relatively talent-barren weight class important because she is hot(and couldn’t make 135). Cyborg is certainly a good female fighter but in a weight class where she will continually get under-sized, under-skilled opponents. Toughill has the size/boxing but we really don’t know if she can be competitive w/Cyborg at this point.
So, where does this fight lead us? Pretty much nowhere. Where does a one-off Gina fight lead us? No where. Where does a Hendo/Moussasi fight lead us? Back to King Mo who will out-wrestle both of them. Sounds exciting. Fedor beats Werdum in a rematch. Super. We are back to where we started. Still no fight w/Ubereem.
When you have a bunch of fights on a card that don’t set up future relevant fights and don’t lead anywhere then you have a general lack of substance. Maybe Coker can sell this PPV to WWE fans but once they see Lashley laying on Batista for 15 minutes they will not be as easily sold next time. This type of strategy is short-sited and has all the sustainability of a Gary Shaw run Elite XC.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jul 14, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That pretty well sums it up...
"Are you sure you want to bet the ranch on that hand?" WTF, its just a ranch - I'm all-in...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 14, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Cyborg vs. Toughill is probably the most substantive matchup you could make in women’s MMA at this point.
The most substantive fight in WMMA is next weekend burried in the middle of a free Challengers card where the #1 & #2 ranked fighter fight for the title Coker doesn’t want to admit exists.
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Damn straight
War Roxy
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 15, 2010 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I buy MMA PPVs whenever I can
If I’m not buying, I’m watching at a bar.
Take away Bobby Lashley vs. Batista and I’ll buy this one. But out of principle I will not pay for a card that has that fight as the main event.
by ruckus on Jul 14, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Thats silly.
You’d buy it… but not with THAT fight on it?
No one is ever rewarded for principles, buy the card and don’t watch the Batista fight.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Of course no one is rewarded for principles. That's what makes them principles rather than just prudence.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
A) Lashley created none of the interest in his match at WM23, and to say he had anything to do with the buys there would be false.
B) I wouldn’t put Lashley/Batista in as the main event, because you’re still promoting an MMA show and you have nothing to follow up your main event with. What, the Lashley/Batista winner taking on Fedor? No, you have to PROTECT your draws if you’re going to use the wrestling formula.
C) This is pretty much what I was saying in the other post. A perfect mix of good MMA and a fight that would curious viewers from another audience, and hopefully make them come back for more. Couture/Toney = Batista/Lashley in this way.
http://www.instrength.com
You are totally right about WM 23.
Lashely had nothing to do with that. In fact, people were pissed about his participation due to his limited ability as a worker.
This is really getting out of control. Strikeforce is accomplishing what with this? Nothing. This is classic Vince McMahon bullshit. Take two guys who are big as hell with lots of muscles and put them in a main event and watch the money roll in. Except the money doesn’t roll in. Because both of these two couldn’t work for shit in pro wrestling. How will it be any different in MMA?
It won’t. You cannont expect these two to put on a good fight. These two aren’t even good at promoting a fight. They are both really bland personalities. This is just ridiculous.
Nobody wants to talk about it, least of all me, but the fact is when you have two guys this size coming over from pro wrestling guess what happens? Steriods talk. These two are both gigantic and I’ve read a shit load of books about the business of pro wrestling and while I can’t substantiate any claims about it, I’ve never read anything that said these weren’t on roids.
How does that look as the main event of a PPV MMA show? It looks dirty. It screams work, even if it’s not. This just doesn’t feel right to me.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
by Geno Mrosko on Jul 14, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Batista was a great heel at the end and had quality matches with guys who he had chemistry with
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree with you there.
I loved the heel character that he turned into. Did it help translate into more PPV buys? Nope. He drew well initially when given his first run as champion but since then he has done very little.
This isn’t to mention the fact that he is old and has a broken down body. Injury after injury while he was with WWE. I really don’t think he adds much to Strikeforce.
If the UFC were behind the marketing they could get plenty of interest going in a fight with Bautista. With Strikeforce doing it? Not so much.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Nobody draws in wrestling anymore, not even Cena
Buys and ratings are pretty stagnant
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 14, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Plucking pro wrestlers to come over to MMA is not a good idea just for that reason alone.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
No one is plucking them
They’re getting penis envy.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jul 14, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lauzon should be up tomorrow.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 5:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Please change the title of this piece
to “If They Did It”
Thank you.
by Trysdor on Jul 14, 2010 5:16 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Nice post.
Makes a lot of sense. Lawler/Manhoef would get the crowd going nuts, that type of energy seems to be infectious.
"You think you're too cool for school but I got a newsflash for you, Walter Cronkite. You aren't. "
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 14, 2010 5:18 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Makes a lot of sense.
… which means strikeforce will do the exact oppposite.
by woooburn on Jul 14, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
You know what's really horrifying, though?
A signifigant amount of people would probably see “Strikeforce: Lashley vs. Batista” and assume that it was a pro wrestling PPV.
Strikeforce is probably going to try and bank on that retarded assumption.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 14, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
New sig
“I deserve to be blown first! Before the fucking Jacuzzi!”
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
There are so many quote worthy things
I want to use them, but I’d feel like I was ripping of your theme :p
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 14, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Mel Gibson quote and an I Ching picture my theme is fucked up feel free man
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Snowden, I’m with you 100% on this one, and I’m amazed people here don’t get it.
Lashley-Bautista has nothing to do with actual MMA fans. It’s all about pulling new eyes to the show and increasing the number of MMA viewers and, potentially fans of the sport. And this is exactly why Strikeforce should do it. I’ve certainly criticized Strikeforce many times, and I will do so many more times… but this is probably their best option.
However, I think Snowden should update his claim. Strikeforce may be the new King of the Cage, but they should be trying to be the new PRIDE. Give us a mix of legit fights that hardcore fans care about and freakshows that pull in the viewers.
Funny thing about Lashley is that people are so quick to forget that he has real collegiate wrestling credentials. Pretty sure it was the wrestling equivalent of the NIT instead of the NCAA basketball title, but still a legit background (even if it hasn’t really transitioned very well into MMA).
I wouldn’t be totally amazed if this card pulled in 200,000-350,000, which would be great for Strikeforce. Much as we all criticize Coker and company, they do seem to understand one thing… short-term survival is just as, if not more, important than competing with the UFC in the long run. The longer they stay alive, the more legitimate they become in many people’s eyes. This card is yet another way for SF to stay alive in the short run.
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree with what you’re saying, but highly doubt it’d pull anywhere near that. The core WWE fanbase that buys everything is only like 100k, and Fedor and all the stars in the world could only draw 100k in Affliction. It’d be a miracle if it pulled 100k total, but that might be enough to make the show profitable, depending on a few different factors.
http://www.instrength.com
I didn’t look at WWE PPV number, so you may be right. The part you’re wrong about is Fedor and all the stars in the world being in Affliction. Affliction is the perfect example of what happens when you cater a card to hardcore fans… you blow a ton of money and get a small number of viewers, losing money in the process.
Affliction put on awesome, stacked, relevant MMA cards for you, me, and about 99,998 other people. They were paying many fighters at least $1 per viewer, which doesn’t leave room for profit.
For any MMA company not called “UFC” or “UFC Presents:” to make a profit, they either need to cut the payroll (likely at the real cost of not getting fighters that people will pay to watch) or appeal to the non-MMA masses. The fact that Gina Carano, Kimbo Slice, and Herschel Walker have been in some of MMA’s most watched fights should indicate that a hell of a lot of people that don’t give a shit about MMA can be convinced to watch with a “compelling” match-up. And by compelling, I mostly mean freakshow (though, in Gina’s case, it should be hot freakshow).
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
though, in Gina’s case, it should be hot freakshow
facepalm
Gina is legit and has a good background to prove it. Lets not throw her into the same group as Kimbo and Walker.
by MMAGuard on Jul 14, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My comment was about how she’s perceived. I think she’s a great fighter whose real accomplishments get overlooked because she’s attractive. But I also know that there are a lot of men out there (especially in the target demographic) who will watch Gina Carano fight because (i) “chick fights” are “hot” and (ii) Gina Carano is “hot.”
And, in fairness, I don’t think the number of viewers who watched her is due to her extensive Muay Thai background or her MMA credentials. That’s not a jab at her at all. It’s just a comment on what draws viewers. (And even though this isn’t the place, you can easily see it based on the attention – and kind of attention – that Gina gets versus what Cyborg gets.)
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
people are so quick to forget that he has real collegiate wrestling credentials
The Jason Guida fight is a black hole that sucks in everything anyone has ever said good about Lashley.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
So let’s say an organization props up and decides it wants to compete with the US Open in Tennis…
Since they cant compete on merit they go out and get Brittinay Spears, Lindsay Lohan, etc.. and create a joke league. You think Tennis fans and media would sit around and say: “Oh look, this will get more eyballs to the sport. forget about the integrity of the sport”…
no, they would get blasted for being a joke.
by mmalogic on Jul 14, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Jose Canseco just boxed (and lost) to a 60 year old man at a minor league baseball game… I don’t think anyone blasted the baseball team for hosting such a spectacle. It’s what minor leagues do.
Strikeforce needs to take the next step and start hosting Thirsty Thursdays.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
maybe they’re trying more for “Harlem Globetrotter” status than “Toledo Mudhen”
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
Not a bad idea
I go where the drink specials are
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
by DayGeaux on Jul 14, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was at the Canseco fight...
For the record, he didnt lose.
It was 4 ninty sec. rounds. He could have murdered Gary Hogan (60 yr old baseball coach at a local college here) if he wanted to. Canseco only threy jabs, and weak ones at that. The entire fight was a joke, and they knew it. They “awarded” the fight to Hogan, but he obviously lost all 4 rds. It was all in fun.
But the “Canseco loses to 60 yr old” headlines have been funny to see.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
interesting… as a promotional ploy though, do you have any idea how it went over? I haven’t heard anything about whether they sold many more tickets because of it. Obviously the bigger goal was to get media attention and that part sure worked.
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
I really havnt… I know the daughter of the guy he “fought” but I havnt spoken to her.
Ill try and find some of that info out and maybe fanpost it later this weekend. Cuz I was real curious as to what Canseco was paid, and how they paid him… It was at our double A team’s park right before the game. Makes me wonder how he ended up doing that in Little Rock AR of all places, and if it means he’s going to do this more frequently.
It was a good crowd tho… I wish they would have waited to fight until after the game and given everyone time to have a drink or two… we’d have been much more brutal to Canseco im sure!
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I watched the video of that fight.Canseco looked like he does in every one of his fights.Hogan stuck a jab in his face the whole time while Canseco did nothing,which is his MO.He’s done that in every fight I’ve ever seen him in.He dances around and throws the occasional right cross.I don’t think he knows how to do anything else,to be honest.
I seriously doubt Canseco could “murder” anyone at this point in time,unless he was allowed to use his baseball bat.And even then it would be iffy.
Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit
by Brian Mayes on Jul 14, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I assure you...
He could have killed this old guy…
50 lbs heavier
5 inches taller
5x stronger
I dont know what video you watched, but this fight was all in fun. Jose didnt throw anything but jabs the entire fight. He even stunned Hogan early on with a stiff jab to the nose, and the rest of the fight he didnt once throw that hard again. Jose even looked angered that the fight was so lopsided and comical.
It was a 60yr old man… not like, Couture in a decade… but like, average human 60.
Jose IS a dick, but he CAN maul 60 yr olds.
Hey, the more ya know!
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 15, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
You really think Jose lost to this guy? Props for the old man gettin in there, but this was a publicity stunt for charity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XobFLN-X5X0
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 15, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
A better analogy
is legitimate poker tournaments that also bring in celebrity players to attract viewers. Poker fans know the celebrities are there to bring in additional viewers, and those additional viewers might result in more poker on TV to satisfy viewer demand. It’s “bad for the sport” since people aren’t paying attention to the best players and it’s not a showcase of skill, but it’s “good for the sport” since it brings in more viewers, demand for more product, more and better sponsors.
Nobody thinks Ray Romano is going to win the World Series of Poker. But average people are probably more interested in seeing him than they are in watching Phil Hellmuth play.
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Nice comp
Are you sure you want to bet the ranch on that? Why not, its just a ranch - I'm all-in...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 14, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there such a thing as “legitimate poker tournaments”? It’s guys gambling on a card game quite literally anyone with money can do it. Professional prize fighting and a card game are two entirely different things. Do you see the NFL bringing in celebrity running backs for the Superbowl? Do you see celebrity pitchers during the MLB playoffs? Does anyone actually consider celebrity boxing as a “legitimate” sport? You can’t seriously compare high level professional athletic events with guys sitting around a table with a deck of cards and a stack of poker chips.
I think the NAPT has guidelines for membership, ie certain performance benchmarks
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The World Series of Poker is a buy in event. The main criteria for participation is that your check clears the bank.
Yeah, the NAPT is different – it was responding to the idea that there aren’t “legitimate poker tournaments”
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
The example was Ray Romano in the WSOP and that has nothing to do with professional athletic competition it was just Ray wanting to play poker and buying a spot at the table. It was just a horrible example.
NAPT is legitimate in the sense that you have to win and buy in to qualify instead of just pay to get in but in the end it’s still playing cards and anyone can jump into the tournaments and give it a shot.
But they don't give Ray Ramono a guaranteed seat at the final table.
Put the fight on the card, fine… Put it as the main event? You have to be kidding me. Implying that a zero fight former professional wrestler is bigger and better than Fedor shits all over the sport and take credibility away from everyone else.
If they used it as a co main event, I could understand… but the final fight? That would be terrible. I am already pissed off about seeing title fights on the undercard.
It doesn’t matter when it goes on. It just needs to be heavily advertised.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, I don't have anything against the fight.
Calling it PPV worthy is stretching it IMO though, I think it would be a great fight for CBS.
I also think this fight headlining a PPV would demean and undermine ever bit of progress that that the sport has made in the last 17 years… I really hope Strikeforce doesn’t go that route…
That's the rub...
Lashley has credentials but he’s proven to struggle translating that to MMA.
A guy that maybe someday will be good but it’s doubtful vs. a guy who has 0 shot at being good seeing as he’s just starting training at 41 years old? Awesome fight.
Freakshows usually only work if one of the people is:
1) massively popular
2) very good at what they do
Taking two not-very popular guys, one who’s OK at MMA and one who’s going to be a shitfest and having them fight? That’s not a recipe for success.
It can’t be stressed enough that there’s a strong chance that Batista is 44.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
eh, folks said the same thing about the wec ppv, and they’ve done fine filling their cards going forward. granted strikeforce is not as organized as zuffa, but if they’re gonna make the leap to ppv, they’d be fools not to stack the card.
WEC 49 was a weak ass card
that happened to be entertaining.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
And they had the UFC brand slapped on the PPV, plus they marketed the hell out of the event
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
Was that meant as a reply to me?
WEC 48 was the PPV which was effing stacked, LW fights aside. Awesome card.
WEC 49 was Varner vs. Shalarous, and was just a piss poor card on paper. It’s the first WEC event since 33 that I didn’t care enough about to watch live. I was responding to the claim that the WEC could fill out their cards well after their megablast PPV.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
WEC 49 made us learn that WEC never has a boring show.
As soon as I say that I bet WEC 50 is a disaster.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
Shit sorry. Got my events mixed up.
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
Lashley on his own isn’t a proven draw. But as we’ve seen with Wrestlemania 23, he’s capable of creating massive interest with the right matchup.
ABSOLUTELY NONE of that draw had to do with Lashley. NOT ONE BIT. It took Trump and Vince to make that match compelling.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2010 5:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think he meant in relation to the focal point of the marketing
Anytime Vince is involved he markets himself ahead of the wrestlers. He puts them over, but pushes himself and celebs ahead of the wrestlers. I have not seen this particular card, but based on his history this reeks of Vince not believing the match could draw.
aw too soon
I'm better than you. Na na na boo boo, stick your head in doo doo.
by Earl Montclair on Jul 15, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions
WWE is like UFC
in that the brand draws viewers. No pro wrestler is the reason Wrestlemania sells. It sells because it’s a stacked card with lots of build-up… and it’s WRESTLEMANIA!!!
You can really see this with TNA’s viewership as Kurt Angle, Mick Foley, and many other joined their roster. I don’t think any of those guys pulled the eyes that TNA was hoping for, but it looks like TNA has good enough contracts (with performers, Spike, PPV, etc) that they are at least staying out of massive debt.
What you have to admit, though, is that Lashley – as a super muscular ex-pro wrestler – is intriguing to non-MMA fans. We all know he basically sucks at MMA, even if he has potential. But we know that non-fans will watch him for free on CBS. We don’t know if they’ll watch him on Showtime. And we have no idea if they’ll pay to see him on PPV.
I don’t doubt that he was a weak draw in pro wrestling. But I do suspect – given the track record of Americans to watch MMA freakshows on free TV – that he is a bigger draw for MMA than he was for TNA.
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Those guys were also shot to hell...
Wrestling’s boom periods are accompanied by stars that sold the product. Hogan, Flair, Austin, Rock..etc.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree a bit about wrestling's boom periods
John Cena is as huge as Austin or Rock. Hogan and Flair were in a totally different league at their peaks. The “Attitude Era” and ripping off the popular ECW style of matches was probably a bigger reason WWE had a boom at the time. Rock and Austin helped and became mainstream icons, but they had a symbiotic relationship with WWE. They got famous because of WWE and the Attitude Era, while WWE got bigger because of those faces out in the mainstream. The closest you see now is someone like a Couture or a Lesnar… they can – and do – sell additional units of the product, but they’re also only as famous as they are because they’re in the UFC.
As a hypothetical example, Couture-Fedor would’ve done pure shit numbers under the Affliction banner compared to what it would have done in the UFC.
Oh, and I totally agree about those guys being shot to hell when TNA picked them up, except maybe Kurt Angle. He got a quick release from WWE and signed with TNA even faster. He was past his peak as a performer, but he was still one of WWE’s big names at the time (even though they dumped him on their revived ECW bastard child of a program).
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Not. Even. Close.
John Cena is as huge as Austin or Rock
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 14, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You only need to look at PPV buyrates where Cena is in the main event and tv ratings to know that Cena is not the draw that Austin or The Rock were. I am a huge professional wrestling fan, and RAW these days hardly even gets a 4.0 Nielson rating, whereas back in the Attitude Era, RAW was getting much higher ratings on a consistent basis. Remeber when wrestlers back then did their pose in the ring and all these camera flashes would go off, now, you don’t see that.
by chrisbboy82 on Jul 15, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly… people look at Rampage/Rashad and the million buys and say “shit, that means 2 guys can sell a ppv now… durr” They forget the fight materialized when Rashad stepped into a UFC octagon which had ppv buyers watching, then hyped up on TUF which got to a fever pitch with UFC prime time and a gazillion commercials.
Or Lesnar/Carwin which instead of primetime had a robust viral campaign which had the fight trending on twitter hours before the program started.
by mmalogic on Jul 14, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Thank you.
I’m sick of the myth that we can use the superPPV numbers to gauge buys of anything else in MMA. The worst is people thinking anything will beat UFC 100 anytime soon. It had a HW title unification, which was a rematch of Brock’s (biggest draw in the sport) only defeat, and had great talk from both participants. Then there’s GSP (second biggest draw in the sport) fighting a guy who is the perfect matchup to beat him on paper. Add a whole season of TUF for the third fight. Then there’s the whole centennial show thing, a Fan Expo, and the biggest marketing push in the history of the sport.
This shit doesn’t happen in a vacuum.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jul 14, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Who thinks anything will top UFC 100 anytime soon? People on The Underground and Sherdog don’t count.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Carwin vs Brock 2 with another title fight (BJ or GSP to pull in the extra hawaiin buys or Canadian buys) would beat UFC 100 in todays market.
Yeah...
if Carwin rattles off 2 or 3 big KO wins and Brock gets through Cain and JDS/Nelson that’d be such a massive fight
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but that’s at least a while from now.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
This.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Some questions about the card
Carano: If her movie does well at the box office, what are her chances of actually returning to MMA?
Lawler: What about Lawler’s deal, too? Isn’t he on his final fight or is his contract actually up?
Does M-1 go along with the idea of letting their biggest star be overshadowed by two pro wrestlers?
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
Carano: If her movie does well at the box office, what are her chances of actually returning to MMA?
Zero. Gina could be a great action heroine if handled properly. Knows how to fight and looks good doing it.
Does M-1 go along with the idea of letting their biggest star be overshadowed by two pro wrestlers?
Something that should be answered.
is it even remotely possible that Fedor’s camp would let him fight Overeem? The best case scenario would be he wins and is then locked into a champion’s clause with Strikeforce. They were ducking Overeem before the Werdum fight, now M-1 is pushing that a rematch with Werdum is the only fight people want to see. If Fedor finishes he contract with Strikeforce by beating Werdum convincingly, he’d be in a solid bargaining position…
Getting bent out of shape over a fight promoter lying is like getting upset that a hooker won't kiss you. It betrays a deep lack of understanding of the nature of the profession.
Interesting Ideas...
The hardcore’s here will scoff at a main event featuring a boring, untested pro-wrestler vs. a laughably untested, 40 yr old ex-wrestler… but SF needs a Hail Mary right about now!
Getting all the matches signed would be tough (Gegard prolly doesn’t want a wrestler like Hendo before another wrestle-fest with Mo), but if it could happen, this seems to be the biggest seller they could produce.
Fedor as a “co-main event” will make the fan-boys heads explode, but its a brilliant move IMO. Let him do his thing, if he impresses and shows us some vintage Fedor, then the hard-cores get what they paid to see, casuals get a chance to learn more about him, AND they have WWE freak show fight to top the night off.
Carano will help give it some extra buys. Watching her sexy mug fight right before Cyborg mauls her next victim will spark interest in a rematch from the casuals.
and…. always start off with an exciting fight to get people pumped. Lawler vs. Melvin II is perfect in this role.
Great ideas Snowden… You’re growing on me.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
Lashley/Batista wouldnt sell shit on a TNA ppv and somehow an even more pathetic promotion in a different industry is gonna do gangbusters with it?
This card wont even do affliction numbers. The stink of desperation is amusing though.
by mmalogic on Jul 14, 2010 5:40 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Its a cage fight in SF, not a cage match in TNA though…
There is something about seeing two guys ACTUALLY trying their best to hurt the other one without a script that makes guys wanna watch.
Id watch them fight cuz iv watched them both wrestle… my casual MMA friends who’ve heard of the two would love to see them ACTUALLY fight.
This card wont even do affliction numbers. The stink of desperation is amusing though.
This is a hypothetical card. You don’t have to get into full character just yet.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are fights that would do great on Free TV and fights that are for ppv…. nobody’s gonna pay to watch this… It wont even do close to afflictions buy rate which was dismal.
Affliction doing 100,000 buys with no TV was actually pretty decent. They just spent way too much money to get by on 100,000 buys.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Right there you proved why it wasn't decent
If you have to spend out the ass just to get 100K buys, then you’ve failed miserably.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
I havnt said it would sell...
But its the best combination of fights that they could put together to try (if they’re going to try.)
Like Affliction, SF doesnt have the brand equity to sell on PPV, but if they tried, this would be their best bet.
Id buy it, but I fully understand that id be one of the few.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd put the over/under at about 50,000 for this card
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont know if this would be a great idea
this would be a huge high risk situation for SF,and while this may be strikeforces biggest option for a ppv, it’d really be an example of them going all in on this hand
if the gate numbers remain low and the ppv fails which is a distinct possibility, since noone has been able to promote a ppv that hasnt been under the zuffa umbrella in some time, this could possibly be strikeforces swan song. the salaries on this card would be astronomical and if the ppv revenues and gate fail i cant see strikeforce operating for much longer
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
If Strikeforce even thinks that this fight would be a main event
Dana will just press the “Counter” button and it will be all over.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
I think people are forgetting...
This would be a last ditch effort to keep SF viable.
They’ve tried to be the “anti-Affliction” and not blow their wad, TRYING to build young stars and intelligently utilize the big name talent that they have, but it hasn’t been working.
Im sure they’d prefer to not have to go this route, but they may have to… Their two most expensive stars (Fedor and Hendo) have proven they cant draw AND lost their last fight. Their hottest fighter (Shields) is gone. Plus their HW champ is a beast but most casuals couldn’t pick him out of a lineup much-less pay to see him.
If they want to sell PPV’s, its not gonna be on Fedor’s back.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
They don't know how to market stars
They don’t know how to set up title shots properly. Obviously they don’t know how to handle putting fights on CBS compared to Showtime. Now they want Lashley/Batista on PPV.
It’s a series of bad moves that will end up being their downfall.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
If they want to sell PPVs...
They need to change businesses. Consider that Strikeforce has a hard time selling shows on pay CABLE…fuck, in most markets you can add Showtime for $5 a month, and they’re getting the same amount of viewers that UFC gets in PPV buys on their lower tier cards.
I don’t care if they bust out with the most loaded card ever, they try to charge $50 for it and they’re going to get a fat load of nothing. Nevermind the fact that UFC would probably put on a better, more credible event against it for free on Spike.
I’m the type of guy who buys everything or goes to the bar if I don’t buy it, but this card would be a “Pirate it the next day on the internet” card for sure if it was PPV.
Maybe im not the best example...
I bought an Affliction show.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
As someone who bought both Affliction shows...
This PPV is a no-buy for me. Honestly, I can’t think of any combination of Strikeforce’s roster that would be worth paying $50 to watch. Or even $30. I like watching their events on free TV because they’re popcorn MMA…nothing too deep but some pretty entertaining fights. When they start asking me to shell out my hard earned cash, though? No dice.
Not to mention that the bars locally almost NEVER buy non-UFC PPVs. This one becomes a pirate on the internet card.
I guess I just prefer to watch them live, and I certainly prefer watching them in my own home, with friends, food and drinks. Some people drop me a 5$ or a 10$, some dont, but its my hobby so I usually don’t mind.
Im 24 and perpetually broke, but sadly MMA is worth 50$ about 14 times a year for me.
I should prolly get my priorities in order.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey
Ain’t you the fella that said Cerrone/Benderson was a slap in the face to PPV consumers? Presumably for lack of repute?
You funny.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jul 14, 2010 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 11 recs
Yes, he is. But he also explained that the “slap in the face” was that the fight was sold as two championship-level fighters when no real MMA fans think either guy could compete at the very top of their weight class.
Strikeforce isn’t going the same route with the marketing.
Though I do suspect Snowden will criticize Strikeforce if they try to charge $45 for the card by trying to pretend it has the same level of talent/entertainment as a UFC card/
by mma_critic on Jul 14, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember that!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Ain’t you the fella that…nope. Sorry. Drawing a blank.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/7/10/1562882/shinya-aoki-vs-gilbert-melendez-ii
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
just sayin he does contribute
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
While that’s cute and everything, it would be nice for you to illustrate how you can recommend – nay, champion – a PPV with a Batista/Lashley headliner and then shit on one that’s co-headlined by Cerrone/Henderson (and main evented by Aldo/Faber).
Of course, you probably can’t – not one that doesn’t involve some admission of bias against the WEC or for Strikeforce or against Zuffa or whatever – so I’ll just enjoy this comment while it’s still here.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, read his first paragraph
This post is going to be a little like that ill-fated O.J. Simpson book. You remember, the one about how he committed the double murder? Now I don’t believe Strikeforce is ready for Pay Per View. But if they did it, here is how it would happen.
He’s just fantasy booking. No harm, no foul.
http://www.instrength.com
Your time will come. But if you have to do PPV now? Here is how it should happen.
That sounds like a recommendation.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the best you can do? Change a word to attempt to pick it apart? subo, buddy…you’re better than that.
http://www.instrength.com
I didn’t change anything – that’s a direct quote from the end of the article. Snowden is arguing that going full freak show is Strikeforce’s best bet, and I disagree. To say that he’s not actually taking a position on whether this card should happen is a really backwards way to shield him from criticism. I also think the comment to Blackout was, at best, childish.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions
First off, this isn’t going full freak show. Not even close. I guess the reference to the OJ book at the start is lost on people, I dunno. But I don’t see this as “taking a position”. I see this as some fun fantasy booking as a direct response to Brent’s article below this.
As for his comment, well…Blackout’s comment missed the mark too, IMO. I think people take things a tad too seriously around here. He’s right, the WEC article was wrong, but…this isn’t the same thing. Not even close.
http://www.instrength.com
His reply to Blackout bothered me a little. Still like the guy but I thought it was a bit childish.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't disagree
I’m just saying Blackout could have probably provided something a little more constructive than what he said as well.
http://www.instrength.com
I think in this case with all the replies etc less is more.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just saying Blackout could have probably provided something a little more constructive than what he said as well
Wait so the guy who replied to my post below by making a MMAlogic crack instead of discussing any of the points is getting on to other people about not being “constructive” enough? That’s comedy gold :D
by who me on Jul 14, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But hey, at least he brought my unemployment into it – that NEEDED to be mentioned in the context of this discussion
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Just seeing this
…and speaking of taking things too seriously, you’re deriving your own point from my comment. My point is that he takes WEC to task for their semi-main and then cheerleads this kind of shit like it’s youth-giving sap from the tree of life. I neither said that I agree with this matchmaking nor that I oppose it. Truth be told, I’d order the shit out of the card he laid out above, but I’d hope more than anything that this silly sideshow fight doesn’t headline above fucking Fedor Emelianenko. But I also thought the WEC card, before I viewed it in all its glory, was a pretty great card on paper. Bump Cerrone/Benderson as the semi-main and slot in fuckin Danny Bonaduce vs Marshall Faulk. Less likely to be criticized or more?
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jul 14, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He’s not “cheerleading” anything, which is why I said you were taking it too seriously. And you’ve proven me correct with the witty tree of life line.
There’s very little correlation between the WEC post and this one. One was making a serious point (which was wrong, I agree with you) and the other is just clowning around a bit to temper Brent’s piece (this one). That’s why I thought your comment was pointless, and off-base.
http://www.instrength.com
All comments are pointless
Thanks for the therapy.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
Plus
I’m surprised you’re not advocating this idea. If it runs SF into the ground, all the best fighters will go to the UFC and you’ll be one step closer to the “one umbrella” idea you love so much.
http://www.instrength.com
I don’t want SF to die. I’d love for them to be what they were before – provider of steady jobs and potential launching platform for future UFC fighters. I’d rather them wise up than die.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You do realize that if they go back to be a regional promotion they would probably only promote 5 or 6 cards a year instead of the 16-20 they plan now. They also wouldn’t come close to paying what I estimate to be 100+ purses above the UFC median of $16,500. That is a lot of good paydays for a lot fighters lost.
I don't get it
Are promotions wormwood to you?
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
As in absinthe?
If so, the answer is yes.
by John Nash on Jul 14, 2010 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I have seen some comments that were green and absinthe is the only rational explanation.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions
That makes no sense as a response, but is the best answer possible.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jul 14, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The legal absinthe they sell in the states is useless, a lot of people don’t know the difference.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand
What’s changed? That they went national and got Fedor? They’re still providing exactly what you just described them as – steady income for fighters and a launching platform for UFC fighters. They just run a lot more cards now. If anything, that’s better in the long run.
Sticking to the subject, how exactly would running a PPV like this hurt any of that?
http://www.instrength.com
Well, it could fail.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
It's not gonna automatically sink the promotion though
Strikeforce doesn’t have to equal Affliction
http://www.instrength.com
Every little cut draws more blood. I doubt this failing would be any small thing for them, you know? It’d likely kill any chance they’d attempt it again.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
Okay
I’m just curious as to why one freak show fight on the card would matter so much. I agree that jumping to PPV and failing would be big…but that’s the jump to PPV, not Lashley/Batista itself. Why is this such a bad idea, when there’s at least SOME potential for viewership there?
http://www.instrength.com
I think the jump to PPV is fucked from Jump Street
The WEC proved that the WEC could sell a supercard because they have legitimate top five fighters at two weight classes. They didn’t show that Strikeforce can sell a main event that would have been laughed out of Vince McMahon’s office.
It’s not as fucking easy as people seem to think to sell PPV’s. Strikeforce can’t do it, Fedor couldn’t do it, and Bobby Lashley sure as shit can’t do it.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The WEC proved the WEC could sell a supercard by tricking people into thinking it was the UFC.
That was about all they proved.
I didn't assert that
And I’m not sure why it needs to be argued. A failed PPV is a failed PPV, on Lashley’s back or Coker’s.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
I wasn’t saying you asserted it, I was asking your opinion on it. This entire post is based on the (fantasy) idea of piggybacking a PPV on a freak show fight. I was asking whether it’s the main draw or the idea of PPV itself that was the problem for Strikeforce. I should have probably phrased it better.
http://www.instrength.com
Affliction, Strikeforce, WFA, Bodog. Pro Elite, etc…
all went under listening these fanboys cheerlead them to their graves.
Sign Dan Hendo… “YEAH”. “What a Coup”. distaster at the box office.
Fedor… “Yeah”… “What a coup” … “strikeforce is in a different league now”…. Disaster on so many levels.
We heard the same shit with affliction, wfa, and now hearing it with Strikeforce.
“Lashley/Batista”… “Yeah”… “will do awesome numbers” yadda yadda yadda.
Even if this fight were appealing enough for casual viewers to buy a ppv – it is VERY expensive to reach the casual viewers. Strikeforce doesn’t have 2 cents to properly promote their legitamate events – what are they gonna do with this?
Reaching the casual viewers and getting them excited costs a shit load of money and that will always be the case. That’s why a rampage vs Rashad wont sell dick outside of Zuffa and it’s distribution channels… because the casual viewers will never know about it.
That’s why Brock sold shit when he was promoted by showtime.
That’s why Bobby Lashley vs Batista will bomb at ppv.
That’s why no matter who affliction stole from the UFC they couldnt do it…
And that’s why no matter who TNA signs they cant sell a ppv… because they dont have the distribution to reach the casuals.
The UFC brand can become as watered down as sliced bread but nobody will ever be able to replicate or match it’s distributional control to the people who matter (casuals).
This whole notion of just slapping lashley vs batista on a ppv card and that will generate casual interest is flawed and just more cheerleading for the pavement of their demise.
by mmalogic on Jul 14, 2010 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
It's impossible for Showtime to promote a major name built elsewhere?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Who’s the major name?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions
PLEASE TELL US HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHO THIS BIG NAME IS IF YOU DON’T TELL US!!!!!!
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
Paulo Filho?
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
by RobertGBP on Jul 14, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
the problem is not as big as people are making it out to be, but it is a problem.
Strikeforce’s core audience is made up of people that spent a lot of energy whining and moaning about brock getting a title shot. these are people that won’t buy UFC PPVs because dana is evil or some other assorted nonsense. By going full freak show they risk pissing off the hardcore fans. It’s a problem because if they try to go after the casuals and fail (which is a strong possibility because they aren’t good at promoting) they might piss off the people that are supporting them now, which is a problem if they need to trying to promote real mma.
Zuffa can afford to tell the militant hardcore fans to fuck off. Strikeforce can’t, and I don’t think this fight will put them in a position where they can, so they need to be careful.
by Phildo on Jul 14, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now I don’t believe Strikeforce is ready for Pay Per View.
My advice to Strikeforce is not to do it
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
But if you do, do it this way? Do I have that part right?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
So I suppose this is you suggesting you’re more famous than me?
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
He’s just being elitist so he fits in with the rest of us. :D
From all reports she (Cyborg) pretty much only spars men, and has been known to put some out during training. - Rudinho479
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jul 15, 2010 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Fedor vs Werdum
is a terrible idea for PPV. People JUST got this fight for free, you can’t ask them to pay for it now.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Showtime is not free.
If you want to argue semantics neither is Spike or Versus, but you don’t pay extra for an individual cable TV channel like you do for Showtime.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
Showtime is less than $10 a month though and you get a lot more than just a fight. Hell, you could add Showtime for one night then drop it and get the fight for like a dollar.
Showtime is cheaper than HBO if I'm not mistaken
Now if Strikeforce could get a contract with Cinemax….
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
hire war machine when he's out of jail.
by Broke Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay...
People just got this fight for 10$ (maybe), they aren’t going to pay 50 for it now.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 14, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I would watch this, but I don't know if I'd pay
What? I didn't break it, I was just testing its durability, and then I placed it in the woods becuase it's made out of wood and I just thought he should be with his family.
Revenge of the Birds
If Strikeforce's last ditch image is to headline a PPV
With two WWE guys (one of them 41 and the other just starting his career) then they are a joke of an organization. It would reek of desperation, lacks little sense making the fight, and is mindless from a business sense.
Snowden I disagree strongly that these two are the best options. It further damages their credibility as an organization and Zuffa would bomb them with a free TV show.
The Dos Equis guy wishes he was Brock Lesnar.
Maybe something like
Werdum/Fedor – Overeem
Lashley – Batista
Mayham – Diaz
Herschel – Kimbo or Canseco
Hendo – Mousasi
Gina – TBA
A mix of relevent and irrelevent fights…
Are you sure you want to bet the ranch on that? Why not, its just a ranch - I'm all-in...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 14, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with the first 3
but would instead add:
Gilbert Melendez vs. Eddie Alvarez
Cung Le vs Melvin Manoef (or Robbie Lawler)
Gina Carano vs. Marloes Coenen
Hendo vs. Babalu
by BrothaDarkness on Jul 15, 2010 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Coker would be going old school since he originally started promoting kickboxing/k-1 matches. This would be a throwback to that era and you know that neither of these guys will go to the ground. It’d be interesting to see how Cung’s style matches up to Manoef’s.
by BrothaDarkness on Jul 15, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
OK I'm going to flip-flop on this
They could make it work. I think they should stick to Showtime/Free tv but maybe this is something they feel they have to do to pay stars or for contractual obligations. Either way, I have a strange feeling if they could do any sort of hype work (which they haven’t proven yet) they could sell a card of
Fedor vs Overeem/Werdum
Batista vs Lashley
Mayhem vs Diaz
After that it doesn’t really matter so why worry about driving up your expenses. Get affordable entertaining fighters: Santos vs Zaromskis II, Ammoussou vs Manhoef. Build the card up with a big CBS card in the fall. scheduling this card a couple of months later. A few weeks before have another CBS card with Gina Carano and Walker vs Kimbo, oh and maybe Hendo vs Babalu and Thomson vs KJ Noons (you know fighters that don’t matter) and turn the whole thing into a two hour commercial.
What Strikeforce and us have to be aware of are what their goal is. If their goal is to compete with the UFC then they are screwed. But if their goal is to be the number two pro wrestling promotion, behind the UFC but ahead of the WWE, then they got a shot. Because for a good chunk of the fanbase, mma is pro wrestling, only shoot and not work. If they can grab a percentage of the hardcore fans, a percentage of the UFC mma-sport fans, and a percentage of the WWE-spectacle fans, they might have a shot.
Calling the UFC the world’s number one pro wrestling promotion is an insult both to the UFC and the ghost of PRIDE, which is still the all time champ in that department. This is just going to fail miserably if they do it, and by fail, I mean they’ll lose money and never do it again.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would anyone be insulted? For all practical purposes it is pro wrestling, the only difference is that one is fake and one is for real. The UFC and MMA is the pro wrestling wrasslin’ fans have been waiting for their whole lives. It’s the Slam Bam Western-Style wrestling we were promised almost a century ago. And now it’s here under the name mma.
If Strikeforce is going to make money they’ll probably find an easier time picking off the WWE then they will the UFC.
That's a big difference
The company doesn’t get to decide who holds the belt, what styles are dominant, how fights turn out or whom the fans love.
Strikeforce was making money before they signed Fedor. They need to just get rid of everyone they can’t afford (read: Fedor) and focus on putting on fights that sell out arenas in San Jose and fans like us enjoy watching on Showtime. Not this freak show, circus, demeaning shit.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Correction
Read: Fedor and Henderson
Are you sure you want to bet the ranch on that? Why not, its just a ranch - I'm all-in...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 14, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
When you say fans like us your are talking about me, you, and 12 other guys on the forum. If they want to make money I won’t begrudge them – I’ll simply stop watching. But fans like me (and you and everyone else on here) are not that important to the bottom line. The bottom line is a lot of fans pro wrestling fans. They want mma to be pro wrestling but real. If Strikforce wants to make money those are the fans they should probably go after. It will be a hell of a lot easier than trying to go head to head with the UFC juggernaut.
The problem is the guys at Showtime do not want to finance a regional promotion with shareholder money… They want ppv dollars to embezzle out through a proxy like strikeforce.
Showtime will be out of the mma business as they are realizing the futility of that goal and strikeforce will be able to do go back to doing what you said on a network like hdnet.
What is the basis for your belief that Strikeforce is not making money?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Intuition.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
like pulling a carfax right away when the guy selling a M3 on craigslist answers the phone with “Da”
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
When was the last time Strikeforce sent you a press release about all the profits they’re making? EXACTLY.
Seriously though, an anatomy of all the expenses and potential sources of revenue for an MMA promotion like Strikeforce is something I would like to see written about.
by smoogy2 on Jul 14, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why would anyone be insulted? For all practical purposes it is pro wrestling, the only difference is that one is fake and one is for real.
Last I checked, professional sports aren’t close to the same thing as genres of fiction.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
What is pro wrestling? For close to 100 years it is a “worked” sporting event. They’ve been trying to create the illusion that it is a real sport (Only in recent times did they completely throw that out). When people starting watching the worked matches of the Gold Dust Trio they didn’t know they were fake. They thought they were watching some amazing new style of wrestling.
What is the UFC and MMA? It is almost exactly the rules that wrestling has, except that it isn’t fake. It’s the Rough and Tumble or No Holds Barred of over a 100 years ago.They could call it pro wrestling if it wasn’t for the connotation pro wrestling has. That’s what i mean when I say mma is pro wrestling. It’s the pro wrestling wrasslin fans always wanted when they were a kid. It’s real.
That’s the thing, MMA is what pro wrestling-MMA cross over fans want but for general WWE fans they just want to be entertained. Pro wrestling fans like to watch pro wrestling because they like pro wrestling, in terms of a pro wrestling experience MMA is terribly dull. Yes the fights are real but if you are expecting to be wowed by a pro wrestling style stunt show then you are going to be terribly disappointed (no one ever jumps off that cage with a leg drop).
The WWE has been feeding fans into MMA for 5 years now, what’s to say that there are all that more of them to give? Much of the cross-over audience has already crossed over and lots of WWE fans just don’t care about MMA.
On the spectrum of of sport to spectacle, the UFC has probably positioned themselves right in the middle. At the extreme on sport is Bellator and to the extreme on spectacle is the WWE. With the UFC occupying the best real estate, Strikeforce isn’t going to do much by flanking them on the sport side. To do that they would have to make a serious push to go after all the top fighters. It would be impossible by expenses alone. But they might have a chance at grabbing some of the market by appealing on the spectacle side. Here they can hope to draw UFC fans. WWE fans, and those fans that wish the UFC was more like the WWE. There’s a chance to capture some of the market there. On the sport side it is next to impossible.
I’ll of course be watching Bellator at that point.
I sort of think the tournament aspect of Bellator sort of puts them on the spectacle side just because of the issues involved with doing them in combat sports but other than that yea I agree. The problem for Strikeforce here is that they aren’t just trying to sell a single show they are trying to build a long term promotion. Batista may or may not pull an audience(there are no guarantees that he will draw in MMA at all) but I think we can be pretty sure he’s not going anywhere as far as this sport is going. There just isn’t any long term that can be built off Dave Batista.
Celebrity boxing can pop a rating but is that what Strikeforce is wanting to become? What do they do after they get their one shot bump out of Batista, do they go out and try to find the next freakshow bump? Do they just hope that people who tune into a show to see Dave Batista find Cyborg and Nick Diaz appealing too? Are they just trying to sell a quick PPV or are they trying to actually build something long term.
I put Bellator more towards the sport side specifically because of the tournament format. It makes the matchmaking completely dependent on fighters winning, getting rid of such things as arbitrary promoters decision, popularity, and matchup potential as a reason for a booking. Even the UFC, who take this more serious than any other promotion, has had such recent head-scratchers as giving Vitor Belfort a title shot off a victory at catchweight over Rich Franklin and Brock a shot after a single win over a gate keeper.
If Strikeforce goes this route, they had better be careful to make sure they schedule enough such gimmick fights until they can get fans to bite on some of the other names. Which also means they had better start working on building up some of their own fighters.
So if Batista vs Lashley is their next big gimmick fight, they can follow that up with Kimbo vs Pudz (steal it from Moosin), Kurt Angle vs Dan Puder, Walker vs Green Power Ranger, Shamrock vs Shamrock, and finish with Lashley vs Kimbo. That is a whole year in gimmick bookings right there with which to build up some new names for fans to start following Diaz, Jacare, King Mo, Mayhem, Overeem, Kennedy. Each of those guys could be turned into a star with the proper push. Of course, this would all be dependent on Strikeforce being capable of pushing them. They might not be capable of it, but if fans tuning in to see the gimmick fight ran across a promotional intro video of Tim kennedy that made them get caught up in his life-story and then witnessed him kicking ass in an awesome fight, I am sure many of them would be more aware of Tim. After a second such fight with Tim you’d have them hooked as Tim Kennedy fans.
I hate that I’m going through this thread again and I hate even more that I must repeat this, but Randy Couture chose Brock Lesnar as his comeback fight as one of the conditions for his return to the cage. Tim Kennedy will eternally be the MW Champion of the Circus if Strikeforce decides to just say “fuck it” and do Celebrity Boxing instead of the real thing.
Belfort, I’d like to see fight at 185 before fighting Silva (I like Belcher-Belfort if Belcher can get through Maia). See, I don’t always agree with Zuffa!
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 15, 2010 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I know it was Randy's choice
(and I know I am going to hate myself for picking on Captain America but) what you’re saying is that Zuffa let Randy skip over more serious contenders to cherry pick an opponent? I thought that only fighters outside Zuffa did that?
OK got my jab out of the way, but my point was
Even the UFC, who take this more serious than any other promotion,can book matches that seem not to place sport ahead of spectacle. First and foremost they want a fight to sell, which is why there is no official UFC rankings to get in the way of matchmaking. Marketable, exciting fighters like Belfort will always have a quicker path to the title than the less popular. Gray Maynard wins a boring decision and he gets moved behind Frankie Edgar, a man he beat. Lyoto Machida has to win 6 straight in the Octagon and get Rampage to turn down a title defense before he gets a shot. It is all somewhat arbitrary. In other sports, everything is clearly defined: you win the season; you make the playoffs; you win in the playoff and your the champ. In mma (not only the UFC) the formula seems to be that if you’re popular its two fights until a title shot; if you’re not popular, you have to win five or six straight for the same shot.
As for Tim Kennedy, if he beats Jacare, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler, and Luke Rockhold in his next 4 fights, what does it matter what Strikeforce does with their other fights? Won’t he have proven the caliber of fighter he is even if Batista is on the same card?
Not really
Because there will be a solid dozen or so guys in Zuffa that you would have to put as a favorite (or at the very least competitive) above him. Randy’s situation was legal and involved a long hold out, so I think the opportunity to do nearly a million buys helped lubricate both sides. The lack of official rankings is not flawless – you didn’t even mention Jon Fitch tying Royce Gracie’s winning streak before getting a title shot – but at the same time, it frees the promoter to do his job: make the fights people want to see.
I get on Dana and company sometimes because, like every MMA fan, I believe I am the best match maker on Earth. Belfort should fight at 185 before he gets a title shot, I didn’t like Shogun getting one after barely beating Coleman and KOing Chuck, and I too cried foul when Maynard was passed up. But I guess I prefer the freedom to shift fighters around to the rigidity of rankings (whose, by the way? BE’s? The promotion’s?), and unless they start getting really egregious and starting doing things like BATISTA VERSUS WALKER, my wrath is tempered.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 15, 2010 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions
My problem with tournaments is that they depend on the fighter not only winning but not getting injured. This is a sport where guys are averaging 3 fights a year not three fights a month, the quick turnaround in these tournaments is what turns me off to them because it adds in too many other variables and takes away from the sport. Guys who face easier rounds or get a quick knock out win have a huge advantage in the next round unless the fights are staggered to a more typical time between fights. If they did a tournament with the fights staggered two to three months between them then I would agree with you but not if the fights are two weeks apart and definately not if guys are asked to fight twice in one night.
Your gimmick fights are sort of scary although I would personally buy a Shamrock vs Shamrock PPV based on nostalgia. That wouldn’t of been a gimmick fight if it had happened when it should of happened 10 years ago.
They’re still completely different things. They can learn from each other in terms of marketing, come from common roots, and share both fans and participants without being the same thing. Pro wrestling is a genre of fiction (which the vast majority of people always knew wasn’t on the up and up) and MMA is a competitive sporting event (I don’t wanna use the word “game” unless I’m forced to). They’re only the same thing in video game form. Any argument for MMA and pro wrestling being “exactly the same thing except for one being real and one being fake” can be used and distorted to say a zillion other sports or genres of entertainment are exactly the same as them.
On that note:
http://www.cagesideseats.com/2010/4/29/1451019/more-wrestling-than-wrestling
http://www.cagesideseats.com/2010/6/8/1507593/more-wrestling-than-wrestling-judy
Anyone who seriously argues this point is either Dave Meltzer, a friend of Dave Meltzer, a devoted fan of Dave Meltzer, someone trying to cozy up to Dave Meltzer, or not thinking the debate over very thoroughly.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Obviously pro wrestling and mma are two different things.: one is real and one is fake. But again, what is mma? it is a combat sport where striking, grappling, and wrestling are all allowed. What is pro wrestling? A show where people pretend to compete in a sport where striking, grappling, and wrestling are allowed.
Pro wrestling is based on Slam Bam Western Style Wrestling. A set of invented rules intended to imitate No Holds Barred and Rough n’ Tumble fighting. If the Gold Dust Trio and their ilk had never seen fit to start fixing fights then we would have had something very close to modern mma 100 years ago. People were watching pro wrestling because they wanted to see that style of fighting. Over the decades more spectacle was brought in, but part of the appeal has always been the idea that it is all out fighting.
Fans of pro wrestling didn’t switch to watch boxing, K-1, or actual wrestling, but switched to watch the UFC and MMA. Why? Because it seems just like a real-life version of pro wrestling.
So when I say mma is pro wrestling I am not talking about Kamala taking on the Honky Tonk Man. I am talking about how mma is the combat sport pro wrestling pretends to be.
You asked for it.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
You don’t know about the “it’s still real to me” guy? You really need to educate yourself to this one :D
Crap
I remembered him being the “it’s still important to me” guy. How did I get that wrong?
Fail..
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jul 14, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, scratch that. The original version of Shooto (run by Satoru Sayama and oddly with little information about it anywhere) was the real version of pro wrestling since it was essentially pro wrestling rules, pinfalls and all. To a lesser extent, you can apply this to the original version of Pancrase.
by David Bixenspan on Jul 14, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Japanese pro wrestling and US pro wrestling have diverged quite a bit in the last 20 to 30 years. Hustle was Japan trying to do US style pro wrestling and it was a bit scary. Shooto was what classic pro wrestling would be like if it was real but US pro wrestling in the WWE mold is more Hollywood entertainment than even a fake sport anymore and has been for a long time. They aren’t just booking events full of wrestling they have professional tv writers scripting their storylines and shows.
So when I say mma is pro wrestling I am not talking about Kamala taking on the Honky Tonk Man. I am talking about how mma is the combat sport pro wrestling pretends to be.
Maybe in the days before Vince coined the term sports entertainment but it’s just not that way today. Yea old timers like me who grew up when pro wrestling pretended to be a sport but as it stands now it’s more live action soap opera for young males/stunt show than anything else. The WWE doesn’t sell a fight without building a storyline behind it to make people care and half a WWE show is outside of the matches. In MMA the fight is the focus not the story they are trying to tell, it’s a fundamental difference on multiple levels and not just that one is real fighting and one is fake.
If they’re trying to compete with the UFC they should not have let Their best fighter in Jake Shields go… and if they arent trying to compete with the UFC they should have never signed Fedor.
They are contradicting their own moves because they are unsure of who they want to be or where they want to go.
at the end of the day the guys behind the scenes who are financing this with showtimes are looking for some ppv money they can line their pockets with and unfortunately after years they arent close.
I would guess that if they do this PPV
They will already be planning to close the doors the next day for good…
Reopen as a solid regional promo…
Are you sure you want to bet the ranch on that? Why not, its just a ranch - I'm all-in...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 14, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s more about competing and surviving, they HAD to let shields go, he was already gone mentally.
by cagefightonacid on Jul 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They didn't have to let him go
While it’s true he never originally wanted to come to SF but was left with little other choice after having his contract purchased, SF could have, you know, actually promoted him. Instead they chose to put him in fight after fight with the hopes that he’d lose even going so far as to put him in a title match hoping to milk a little bit of equity from him that way.
Strikeforce completely botched their relationship with Shields when they didn’t have to.
"I thought I was getting raped by Freddy Mercury."
- Tank Abbot
on his decision loss to Dan Severn in 1995
Depends how you define "compete"
I don’t think they had any real plans to go head to head with the UFC. But after signing Fedor (which I still say was a planned loss leader) tI think the plan was to get enough recognition as being the #2 promotion putting on serious cards that they could do good numbers on CBS and Showtime and maybe 3 or 4 super cards a year on ppv eventually doing 200-500 k buys. But that was dependent on everything going their way and after Fedor, M-1, Shields, Hendo, CBS, the UFC etc, etc, it’s proving to be a lot more difficult.
They have a better chance of walking a fine line between relevant/entertaining matches (lawler/manhoef, Diaz/Santos) along with the gimmick fights and capturing a block of mma fans and wrestling/UFC fans.
Do we know that a fight between Batista and Lashley would get sanctioned? It isn’t an overwhelming chasm between the two in terms of ability, skill, and experience, but it is not out of the question to me that this could get canned. Knowing Strikeforce, it would of course happen at the 11th hour.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
I was following your lead
You’ve made pretty much all the other good ones in this article’s comment section. As a side note, I often times find myself agreeing with many of your points and appreciating your even handedness, especially given the hyperbolic nature of internet.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jul 15, 2010 2:32 AM EDT up reply actions
What are the Dudley Boyz up to these days?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:21 PM EDT reply actions
Getting fat, making their fat asses even fatter
For reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fe92m7nF7s
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
What a HORRIBLE IDEA!
This would leave only Overeem available to fight anytime soon. I know ST makes dumb decision, but I hope even they’d realize the absolute stupidity of throwing 95% of their big names on 1 fight.
Granted it woul make a great FAREWELL CARD. but not a PPV. Ideas like that killed Affliction
Overeem, Rogers, Diaz, Lawal, Melendez, MW Champ would all be available as well as supporting talent.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
And theres a very good chance most or all of them could be tied up in DREAM fights.
Either way.. you Never throw ALL of your big names on 1 card.
I just walked through a list of names that can fill in on the next show post-PPV. Not sure what you are on about. Didn’t even include HERSCHEL WALKER!
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
great job snowden
i’d buy that ppv in a flash if they could put it together, but switch main & co., otherwise u risk Alexander vs Kimbo as a main
by cagefightonacid on Jul 14, 2010 6:31 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Has Batista even signed a contract with Strikeforce or even got a manager to represent him?
They should have Batista fight Herschel Walker, it’s a win win, both guys are new, would be more likely to get sanctioned, and then they can get Lashley to fight Ron Sparks or whoever his previously hand picked opponent was.
Not a bad idea for a SF PPV actually—Draws both the casuals and is compelling for more hardcore fans.
Henderson can fight at his preferred weight in a matchup he should likely win.
This is the only part that I disagree with, unless Hendo shows up with WAY better conditioning and gameplan
Yeah
I find it highly unlikely Hendo beats Mousasi…
Are you sure you want to bet the ranch on that? Why not, its just a ranch - I'm all-in...
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 14, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
Hendo is not going to beat Gegard. I’d be surprised if he didnt get knocked out in that fight.
My Top Ten Favorite Fighters
1. Nick Diaz
2. Fedor
3. Carlos Condit
4. Jake Shields
5. Gilbert Melendez
6. Gegard Mousasi
7. Anderson Silva
8. Nate Diaz
9. Kenny Florian
10. Melvin Manhoef
by MasterWhiteTiger on Jul 14, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Never
This Mousasi love is just not going to die.
Wins at LHW: Babalu, Sokonojudo
Losses at LHW: King Mo
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Sokonojudo
FTW
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 14, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And Sokonojudo was making this over hyped fighter look stupid in the first round. I really don’t get the hype behind him. It all started with a well placed upkick…
From all reports she (Cyborg) pretty much only spars men, and has been known to put some out during training. - Rudinho479
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jul 15, 2010 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions
When Fedor falls into a triangle choke.
Actually, I think there’s less chance of Hendo being knocked out. Especially not by Mousasi, who is much more likely to soften Hendo up for a choke.
Sounds entertaining
but then what? They’ve blown their wad. On top of that, I don’t think the card you put together even needs Lashley/Batista.
Put Carano on ONE card and coast a bit with the other good matchups.
I like it
and must say, it’s a card worth $29.95
I really think this would be a mistake for Strikeforce. I don’t think it would be a disaster, because they aren’t paying people Affliction salaries, so they don’t need to what Affliction needed to do to be a success.
I don’t think Lashley/Batista would be a big success on PPV. “the right matchup” at WM23 was the possibility of Donald trump shaving his head. If WAMMA can get trump to put his hair on the line for this match, it will sell, if not, I’m not sure. Lashley/Batista will do anything on PPV. I do think that it could probably do ridiculous numbers on CBS, so maybe they could go that direction.
If they must do a PPV, I think the best bet is a HW match as the PPV. Maybe extend Fedor first and do a mini HW tournament. Get Carano and Hendo on the card, and learn how to promote a fight. It really depends on how their contracts are written. For a PPV to be a success, they don’t need to make a ton of money, they just need to make more money than they can get from CBS and SHowtime. And, if Fedor’s deal has the 50/50 split that was demanded of the UFC, who gives a shit if they lose money, send Fedor away owing people money.
I basically agree with everything you wrote but this here
learn how to promote a fight.is the key.
So a little help to Coker and Co.
1) Book Fedor vs Werdum and Silva vs Overeem in a 4-man HW tourney. Add Batista vs Lashley and you have a huge fall CBS show.
2) Now if you’ve got huge numbers of CBS look to book the winning HWs and maybe Lashley vs Pruder or Lashley vs Rogers and Mayhem vs Diaz for a ppv. Easy to sell fights for both the casual and hardcore mma fan. Save the Caranos, Walkers, and such for free TV.
But he’s an excellent athlete
?? Dave Batista? an excellent athlete? Dave Batista? The guy got injured jogging.
Adding Fedor to the card is perfect
Perfect if you want to pay M-1 Global half.
Nope it doesn’t matter at all because she’s just a marginal draw anyway.it doesn’t matter so much who fills this slot against Cyborg
Bringing Carano back sends a signal that this card is something worth watching
If they could manage to convince her to come back then yea she would be a big deal for the card. Still getting her to come back it the real issue here.
The winner can fight Muhammed Lawal who should be positioned ringside
This is Strikeforce, they are liable to try to push Babalu vs Mo again instead. That would be a good match up but before they push it as a contenders match hopefully they will actually ask everyone involved if they were ok with that.
It’s always nice to start things off with a bang
Hope they get Lawler signed long term first.
There is enough talent out there outside of Zuffa’s grasp to draw 100-200,000 PPV buys. But it’s expensive talent, making the show cost prohibitive. My advice to Strikeforce is not to do it.
So you do get what the issue is here, maybe you should of just called the article"Fan Booking a Strikeforce PPV" because that’s about how realistic this all is.
by who me on Jul 14, 2010 6:57 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
It's like mmalogic signed in under your account
If you didn’t spell the promotion name correctly, I would have thought he wrote this for sure.
http://www.instrength.com
nitpick much?
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 14, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Um it’s a MMA blog comments section all we do is nitpick. I mean isn’t that the point of all these discussions?
You guys should step back and look at the big picture like me – don’t get caught up in the details
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 14, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Big picture:
We’re having 3 #1 vs #2 fights in a span of a month after having Brock vs Carwin and Shogun vs Machida in the past two months… Zuffa dominated MMA is epic.
Chest Bumps Subo
Zuffa is epic. Exactly the word I used for Carwin-Lesnar.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions
is a terrible idea.
If Fedor wins – well, then he probably walks from Strikeforce. In any event, he has them right back over the barrel.
If werdum wins – well folks already saw that on TV, Fedor’s mystique is REALLY gone.
Plus they are missing the great opportunity to promote the fighters that are likely to stay with them Werdum and yes Overeem – he’s at least more likely to stick w/ strikeforce than Fedor.
heh
Of course Snowden puts out a piece defending a PPV main event like Lashely vs Batista after trashing Lesnar vs Carwin a few days ago. You’re so transparent.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Even Snowden says they shouldn’t do this in his article. I think he was trying to generate discussion.
But if you have to do PPV now? Here is how it should happen
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
That's the thing
Even if he realizes how horrible of an idea this all his, he can’t help himself. He has to rationalize it and make it seem like SF isn’t completely retarded. Take that, and combine it with the other shit he says like the Carwin/Lesnar or WEC stuff and so on, and it’s obvious where he’s coming from.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Pretty much anti-Zuffa
to the point of lacking objectively.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
What does this article have to do with Zuffa?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 14, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing,
but it keeps with your anti-zuffa, championing the competition theme.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Can’t a fucking guy play match maker for shits and giggles anymore without constantly getting bitched at? How in the WORLD is this post anti-zuffa. Snowden’s got no more love for Strikeforce than he does the UFC, THE UFC HAS ALL THE TOP COMPETITION IN THE WORLD FOR THE SPORT THE MAN WROTE TWO FUCKING BOOKS ABOUT. Do you really think he hates them? REALLY? I mean really?
From all reports she (Cyborg) pretty much only spars men, and has been known to put some out during training. - Rudinho479
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jul 15, 2010 7:01 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
chill bro
I didn’t say the post was anti-Zuffa, i said that’s Snowden’s shtick. And yes, i think he is biased against them. That is my opinion.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Jean Snowden...
I am not impress by your performance. I ’ave nodding to say ’ere.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
by Ubernoober on Jul 14, 2010 9:18 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Odder dan dat I am not impress, of course.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
I ’ought dat dis ’ould be de ’ardest challenge of my career, but i am not impress by dis performance.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Whenever someone types GSP and it’s not Ubernoober I read it in the voice of a 12 year old mongloid
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 14, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
i just wanted to be cool too.....
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
I’ll consider you Miles Davis
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 15, 2010 4:55 AM EDT up reply actions
If I was Lawler, I definitely wouldn't want to fight Melvin again, that's for sure.
Gegard v Hendo would be sick.
I hate freakshows so much
MMA does not need freak shows. It just doesn’t need them. At all. And when Pride involved them heavily in the schedule, look what happened. If your shitty little promotion can’t survive with legit MMA only, which is obviously possible to do, it’s better of dead.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
smfh
lashley wasnt even a draw for the wwe . he is nothing like brock and stikeforce should just give it up
The Red Wings will come back stronger
RESTORE THE ROAR 2010 Detroit Lions
What about Melvin vs Cung Le if Lawler decides against the fight?
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
Cung would die.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 15, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
It would be so fun, though.
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
when will Bloody Elbow 1 debut?
Unfortunately Showtime isn’t totally free…I still shows up on my DirecTV bill at least.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
No Way
Fedor only had 400,000 watch for free on shotime. SF will lose what ass they have left on a ppv. I thought they might have a chance to build a following with cbs/shotime. Fedor refusing to fight on cbs killed them. They dont have the names or talent to promote a succesfull ppv. The wec card did well, but they had a stacked card and ufc promoting it. No st isn’t tech. free but most pay a cable bill, how many will pay 50 more for an underrated ppv?
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