A DREAM Deferred: The Decline of Japanese Mixed Martial Arts
Jake Rossen lays out the lamentable reality of the state of MMA in Japan:
Dream has tried to change course. A cage introduced last fall was intended to mimic the format of promotions here, but fighters had little interest in it. (Kazushi Sakuraba entered his last fight with "We want ring" playing on video screens.) They dug into Pride’s bag of tricks and hosted a "Super Hulk" tournament with over-sized, under-skilled giants taking on smaller, more talented fighters: Jose Canseco was a participant. They even tried resurrecting the foolproof Gracie/Sakuraba rivalry by enticing Ralek Gracie to come fight the aging star. (He won.)
None of it mattered much. Ratings on TBS, one of Japan’s over-air networks, are not impressive. The trick bag is approaching empty.
More bad news? Dream is backed by FEG, the promotion behind K-1 -- Japan’s premiere combat sports league since the early 1990s. If they don’t have a handle on how to resuscitate things or the cash to make bold moves, the chances of a positive outcome are slim.
In many ways, it was the surge of the UFC in 2005 that started it: finally able to afford marquee talent, Pride had issues holding on to attractions. When the Yakuza scandal hit, effectively destroying that company in 2007, Japan’s audiences seemed to take that as a sign that the glory days were over.
This would be a good time to suggest changes, but the reality is, there may not be many to make. Pride built its foundation on the appeal of pro wrestlers fighting "for real," a resource that’s dried up in the wake of lower purses and fan apathy. Sakuraba always seems one bad break away from retirement: Norifumi "Kid" Yamamoto is aging in the ring.
The MMA market has contracted in Japan and done so in a very big way. It's time to recognize the reality of what this means: rather than servicing the pro wrestling impulses that launched MMA in Japan, the country's leading promotions, DREAM and Sengoku, are rapidly atrophying into little more than glorified regional promotions.
Japan does and will continue to develop marquee MMA talent, particularly in the lighter weight classes. The combat sports tradition is rich, and the country is a top factory of international-class judokas and amateur wrestlers. But in the overall landscape of featuring meaningful MMA, the balance of power in delivering the most meaningful MMA has shifted dramatically away from the East.
There are a few ways to begin assessing the problem. I'm personally drawn to the "divide and self-defeat" reality of top MMA organizations. It's a division of the meager ranks at the elite. It is not particularly clear what the value-add is of Sengoku at the moment, outside of discovering and launching Japanese prospects. Initially launched as something of a post-MMA corruption organization with more adherence to sporting parameters, the promotion now features bantamweight tournaments with fighters of almost zero recognizable name value to the hardest of hardcore North American fans. Grooming the next generation of Japanese talent is a worthwhile activity, but is inherently not first-class MMA and certainly not the most profitable or even entertaining enterprise. That's historically been the job of regional MMA and a glaring admission from the promotion about what kind of show they actually are. I don't want to gloss over some of the other contributions Sengoku has made (the rise of Muhammed Lawal, Khalidov vs. Santiago series, fantastic featherweight fights, etc.), but those appear to be declining in frequency and not by accident. They've improved their TV deal, but lost executives, key fighters and their gyms, sponsorship alliances and more.
As we witnessed over the weekend, DREAM is still capable of offering first-rate, high-level, important MMA. DREAM's lightweight and featherweight divisions still offer accomplished, highly-ranked fighters to say nothing of the use of familiar Japanese faces of those ranked outside of the top 10 - Kazuhiro Nakamura, Hiroyuki Takaya and others. But Sengoku's problem is DREAM's problem is Japan's problem. I do not believe Japan has the fan support or fighter supply to divide what little talent they actually have. It's far too crude to analyze the Japanese from that of an owner trying to cut losses and consolidate wealth. I'm not here to glibly suggest SRC should fold it's tent to support DREAM on behalf of Japanese MMA. But unless there are serious and substantive changes, that might happen by itself. As ousted SRC head Takahiro Kokuho said himself:
"Promoters must create an event which can be held without TV deals and sponsors. To do so, we are at the state where we have to restructure MMA by studying other sporting events and learning from them. Japanese MMA organizations are going to diminish if they keep competing against each other. They have to see the world and other kind of sports. There were good times in Japanese MMA. I think people are still seeing the mirage of the times in the past."
Emphasis mine.
Continued in the full entry.
The problem is significant and not one I can adequately cover in a single post, but here's a personal anecdote that I find illuminating. For my radio show, Japanese MMA is ratings cancer. As I said on the air in the above clip from last Saturday's show (Japanese rant starts at 6:06 mark of the segment), in no way whatsoever does it even benefit me a little to talk about DREAM, Sengoku or even American fighters competing abroad. The numbers not only fail to increase, they'll send ratings into a free fall if you talk about it longer than a handful of minutes. In terms of what matters to modern MMA fans in major media outlets, Japanese MMA is not even a minimal concern.
Even this site, which has an obligation to cover Japanese MMA in some formal capacity, isn't really serviced by coverage. When there is a lull in Strikeforce or UFC events, occassionally Japanese MMA can stand out as a traffic driver. We also have a healthy audience here in the BE Night Crew, so there is a portion of the audience that actively seeks out and participates with coverage of East Asian MMA. Generally speaking, however, it's of very marginal significance. While the quality of coverage would decline here, we could easily replace all coverage of anything Japan with anything Brock Lesnar and do far better numbers. I don't know what HDNet's numbers look like for DREAM and Sengoku events, but I'm incredibly curious to find out.
Ultimately what matters for today's Japanese MMA is that their shows produce television ratings, draw local crowds, sell merchandise, and attract sponsors at home. International expansion is not a top priority or necessity for them at the moment. They also don't need my radio ratings or traffic numbers to ensure their survival. And, in fairness, part of what makes attracting audiences here for what's going on there difficult is the national and cultural divide. But the issue isn't whether Japanese MMA is viable because it drives numbers in North America. What's at issue is the decline of the ability of Japanese MMA to produce fights, fighters and events that matter.
Japan was once the seat of power in the MMA kingdom, but when the polarity of power shifted to the U.S., the Japanese were left with not much more of a sport than what they themselves could personally muster. It's good, only occassionally great. Not what it once was. Not even close.
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ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Thanks for the bummer, Luke...
Not saying it’s not all true, just that it’s incredibly sad… not only JMMA, but also your misspelling of atrophy.
There's a WAMMA belt in my Cracker Jacks!
Tweeting @dmiller23
Good read
Very informative. I love articles about the business side of MMA here and abroad. Well done Luke.
Agreed. Very interesting write up.
For some perspective, as bad as things are over there though, are they worse than the UFC was pre zuffa?
All it takes is one man (or woman) with a good idea and the business savvy to pull it of and Japan MMA may see some sort of revival. There is still a market for MMA of there so long as it is promoted properly. The fans haven’t completely disappeared.
Maybe Dream gets a hold of one or two hot Japanese prospects that start to terrorize the competition, maybe Dream goes under and Zuffa or someone new builds a new MMA brand over there. Japan MMa is not done yet.
At current I plan to enjoy the free shows (with top notch production) that I see on HD Net and hope for things to get better. This is much more enjoyable than fretting over each disappointment. Japan MMA may be hurting, but it isn’t dead and I can’t see it dying completely. They just need their Zuffa or their TUF to build them back up. *Finger crossed.
Japanese MMA, specifically PRIDE FC, was destroyed by the Yakuza scandal. But the Yakuza is still around the Japanese MMA scene, right? How does that work? If a professional sport was tainted in America by heavy involvement with organized crime, they would have to completely irradiate all presences of organized crime involvement before they could work on making a comeback. But in Japan, even though the Yakuza destroyed their salad days, they keep them around (and the media which used PRIDE’s Yakuza involvement to destroy them in the first place remains silent about it). It doesn’t make any sense.
And how come Japan never puts on meaningful fights? They’ve had years to put on a Barnett vs Overeem fight, but instead whenever they use one of those fighters they always pit them up against a jabroni or has-been who has no chance of winning. That’s ridiculous.
And I could be wrong, but it was the larger than life characters like Cro Cop and Bob Sapp who took Japanese MMA to outrageous heights in the early 2000s, right? Why is Japan so focused on lightweight fighters at the moment, when they should be looking to create / hire the new breed of heavyweight fighters to mesmerize Japanese audiences?
Maybe I missed some along the way, but there’s been a long history of organized crime being involved in boxing and as far as I can tell, nothing has been shown that “completely irradiates” their perceived involvement.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
my understanding
is that the whole society is deeply entangled with the yakuza and it’s not so much the reality of yakuza involvement as the appearance of it that isn’t allowed.
PRIDE made the mistake of getting caught. That’s what people care about.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
From my understanding it would be like trying to work in southern Italy and not having organized crime ties. Or Russia, or any other tribal/underground economic ties around the world. It is that ingrained into the fabric of society.
I live in the middle of Bumfuck, Georgia and all the business have ties to organized crime
It’s called the Organization of Walton Churches, they meet the first Tuesday of every month
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree with the thrust of the article – large-scale JMMA is in serious trouble and needs to change, consolidate, something.
Couple small things, though:
A cage introduced last fall was intended to mimic the format of promotions here, but fighters had little interest in it.Dream 14 was originally scheduled to be contested in a ring, but changed to a cage at the request of Hayato Sakurai and other fighters.
Deep’s cage shows have proven rather popular, too. When the first one was held last year, bossman Shigeru Saeki said he was inundated with requests from fighters wanting to get into the cage. Also, for what it’s worth, while normal Deep shows can take weeks or months to make it to TV, the cage shows are often aired within days.
Initially launched as something of a post-MMA corruption organization with more adherence to sporting parameters, the promotion now features bantamweight tournaments with fighters or almost zero recognizable name value to the hardest of hardcore North American fans.Not sure I understand why the opening round of an all-Asian tournament — where the “big name” fighters from Shooto, Pancrase, etc. won’t even be seeded in until the third round — is supposed to have names that North American fans (or any fans) recognize? Sengoku has always been about developing prospects on the side; see the Japanese “Gold Cup” and Korean “Gold Rush” tournaments they held in Sengoku-affiliated gyms last year and televised on their weekly Sengoku-G TV show, a la The Ultimate Fighter.
by Chris Nelson on Jul 13, 2010 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ditto
Chirs you took the words out of my mouth. All my qualms with the article were addressed. I also wanted to state that i believe that the consolidation and the rebuilding that is taking place in JMMA is a necessary act. Although I wish changes that do take place occurs expeditiously. Except that i hope that JMMA does’nt altogether phase out the Ring.
Fair points
Let me briefly clarify. I don’t think SRC should or is supposed to have names N.A. fans recognize per se. What I am driving at is the quality of event, quality of card. If you compare SRC 13: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Victory_Road_Presents:_Sengoku_Raiden_Championships_13
That is not a card offering a great deal. Even some of the better cards of 2009 are offering decent to high quality MMA, but nothing that moves the needle. If Sengoku wants to do tournaments and air the results or make shows off of what the tournaments flesh out, fine. But that’s not going to save them anytime soon. I’d wager a lot that it makes them not a single yen. They can’t prioritize development building unless that’s the organization they are. Their main card fights are of respectable quality, but marginal significance and not building their brand. And prospect building should be financed by the larger revenue from the main shows. With suffering main shows, one has questions about who they are and what’s their priority.
And to my knowledge (which could very well be off), none of those Sengoku-G shows have done stellar numbers in part of because of their time slot. Developing prospects is a cost to high-level promotions, not just in terms of lost revenue but in manpower and hours. It’s a real opportunity cost for orgs to pursue development grooming especially when they’re already in dire straights.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Sengoku never had the greatest cards, but they’ve been on a sharp decline ever since Kokuho and J-Rock left the picture.
I guess I’m just selfishly enjoying their prospect-building while I can, since I’ve been expecting the promotion to fold since last fall.
by Chris Nelson on Jul 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Dire straights? Have you been playing poker lately?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting my flame-shield

My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
Ultimately
This – the all-but-complete disappearance of elite-level MMA from Japan – is a good thing for MMA.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 2:41 PM EDT reply actions
Bored? I think you’re lookling for something to do.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Japanese MMA keeps this pro-wrestling mindset which only holds back the best of the best from reaching their greatest potential.
Too much spectacle in Japan, not enough sport.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
Perhaps what you mean is the decline of a premiere Japanese promotion, but I’ll just go by the words you actually wrote.
It behooves the sport to have top-level competition around the world, in every market, so that athletes from Korea to Niger to Chile are rising to the top.
It’s unlikely Manchester United would have found Chicharito without the Primera Division to facilitate his ascension.
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It behooves the sport to get all that top-level competition as centralized as possible as quickly as possible.
I like Sengoku but I don’t like promotions doing the drug testing (imagine a scenario where, as a promoter, you have two positive tests, one with a guy you’re keeping and one with a guy you’re losing. How easy is it to sit on one and not the other?), and the bottom line is I’d rather have guys like Akiyama and the Korean Zombie and Gomi here as opposed to there.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Curious as to why It behooves the sport to get all that top-level competition as centralized as possible as quickly as possible? What happens if that doesn’t happen? What happens that is so special if it does?
I’d rather have guys like Akiyama and the Korean Zombie and Gomi here as opposed to there.I’ll give you this, it is refreshing to see someone who is so unapologetically selfish.
Imagine if the PGA didn’t exist and Phil Mickelson, Tiger Woods, Ernie Els and all the new up-and-comers played on different tours. How would you determine the best golfer in the world?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably with something like an International Federation of PGA Tours and a World Golf Championship.
Lame. I’d rather have the best competing against the best regularly, not annually.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t they do that at the four majors – Masters, US Open, British Open, and PGA Championship – where the PGA Tour, the PGA European Tour, and the Japan Golf Tour all compete?
Not much of a golf fan
But isn’t it generally accepted that the PGA is significantly more high level? Aren’t the vast majority of the players at the Majors from the PGA?
Regardless, even if there is a precedent for something, it doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, or the best way to do things.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
How would you determine the best golfer in the world?
WAMMA.
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
by woomikee on Jul 13, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I agree with Subo
I want all the best in one place. I don’t care where that place is (I would have rather it was PRIDE) but I want to always know how the absolute best in the world is, proven in a fight.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If we really wanted a best case scenario where we truly knew the best were fighting the best I would think we would have to go through some dramatic changes. 1) I would want to see some sort of fighters’ association running the sport along the lines of the PGA and the ATP. But that would mean Zuffa would be out. 2) We would have to move to some sort of seeding/tournament format. Otherwise how could we truly rank the players. And without an easily understood system to place fighters in a hierarchy then we would be back to booking superfights and could kill any association or union attempts.
It’s almost a catch-22. Personally I would like to see someone else capture maybe 30% f the market to Zuffa’s 70% and the weakening of the Champion clause. This will keep Zuffa honest with regards to pay, image rights, and overall treatment and also make sure that if the demand is great enough Zuffa will be able to eventually sign any top fighters that emerge outside their demesne.
by John Nash on Jul 13, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
if the demand is great enough Zuffa will be able to eventually sign any top fighters that emerge outside their demesne.
That’s kind of already happened, though. Give or take two or three guys, that’s already happened.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Nonsense
We don’t need all these convoluted new systems, all we need is the best guys under one roof. That’s it.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
"disappearance of elite-level MMA in Japan"
Obviously it’s great if they’re in the UFC for us as North American MMA fans. But the UFC is probably a quarter of a century away from having enough of a presence in East Asian markets to cull the talent that SRC, Dream, Deep, etc. are getting. Throw in your Art of War orgs, too.
If those organizations crash today, East Asian MMA is effectively dead. We lose those organizations, we lose that talent.
I think my soccer analogy still olds water here. The J-League, Brasiliero, etc. all have their place, while UEFA federations are sort of “the promised land”
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I tihnk your quarter of a century time frame is probably a bit unrealistic
The UFC China office is already open, and Zuffa has already showcased that MMA, in their hands with their brand, is capable of black athlete explosive growth. I feel things are well underway.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Nice read
makes me sad….
But hopeful that we’ll eventually see Minowa vs Struve, the only giant he has yet to vanquish…
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
Japanese need competitive MMA stars, if their biggest stars are being beat by mid level western cage fighters noone in japan wants to watch that. The main reason why Pride was so popular was that the fighters were considered the very best in the world. Even if you werent a japanese fighter in pride, fighters like crocop would be humble to the japanese and represent japanese mma. Now japanese mma is struggling to find any fighters that can compete at the highest levels and win.
BE night crew never dies
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of Japanese MMA...
Apparently Moosin is having a Chicago show with Kimbo v. Pudz and Sylvia vs. HMC in Chicago
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
Can’t tell if you are joking or not
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.mmaforreal.com/2010/7/13/1567717/moosin-lives-schedules-oct-9-event
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The live blog is going to be fucking amazing.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn’t here for Wargodz, so hopefully this is good. Seems a bit more freakshow heavy than their first event
I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope they have a raffle
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Freakshow, yes
But also a surprisingly good fight between Roxanne Modafferi and Tara LaRosa.
Is it wrong to be excited for this?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Nah
Moosin is what it is. They’re not claiming the best fighters in the world, they’re just putting on fights.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Butterbean is drinking Japan’s milkshake.
by WanderleiNoooooo! on Jul 13, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes!
A million times yes!
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Please don’t stop covering JMMA! Dream is what got me into MMA. I don’t see how you could continue to cover Strikeforce without covering two of their feeders, Dream and SRC. I love the UFC and I order just about every one of their fights, but there is something about Dream. Its just a different vibe and energy.
Bad news.
Shortly after this post was published, I was informed via email that all my posts going forward must focus on Brock Lesnar.
by Chris Nelson on Jul 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Up until a few weeks ago it seemed like there was a once per day Fedor article quota...
That rule clearly seem have been Brockinated.
Well, really,
that’s your bread and butter – your strong suit
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Not funny.

I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jul 13, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Bears don't tap.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jul 13, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Grizzly Jesus
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
au contraire

I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
This is what Tim thinks of your precious bears.

Lemonade was a popular drink, and it still is. I get more stunts and props than Bruce Willis- Guru
by Dr. Octagon on Jul 13, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Do not wrestle, do not tackle”
wtf?
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Jul 13, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lol... Nice. I had no idea what any of it said.
I just thought it was awesome!! What does the rest say if you don’t mind?
I'm not going to that place
If I saw a sign that said Caution bears are everywhere I’d shit my pants
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
I have been to places like that.
I have seen them while camping and in smaller Northern communities. It isn’t that unusual in some parts of Northern Canada. It can vary from year to year and in some places it is completely normal all the time. For the most part Bears are just as scared of us as we are of them though.
I have come face to face with a black bear about a dozen times. It isn’t exactly enjoyable, but each time the bear ran away. That said, I would shit if I saw a polar bear or a grizzly though.
Yeah
The regular-sized ones don’t really want to brawl. It’s the big bastards you have to worry about.
I had a mama grizzly and four cubs climb (read: destroy) my fence a long time ago. Went out on the deck to take a picture and she reared up and slammed the ground with her paws. Had to be over 500 lbs. My dog was like a statue.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
In BC, they put signs in all the toilets in the provincial parks that warn:
“Bears run fast. Cougars run faster. Both run faster than you.”
My best friend’s Japanese girlfriend, in Canada for the first time, saw one of those signs and just about fainted.
Also, true story: my wife’s cousin and his wife were mauled to death and partially eaten by a bear in northern Ontario while “extreme camping”. We felt little sympathy: they went into bear territory, and a bear objected…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
I used to live on the north tip of Vancouver Island, past Port Hardy. Bears sat behind my father’s car when he’d try to leave for work. They’d walk into through the back mudflapped doors of the mess hall. They were all over the place. You just get used to them.
Cougars though, you don’t fuck with them. They used to maul a couple people a year up there, and you just couldn’t scare them. Bears are relatively easy to bribe, distract or run off. Cougars? No fucking way. Once they zero in, you’re done for.
http://www.instrength.com
Cougars don't generally hunt humans though...
If they are hungry and you are convenient, they will take you out though. How do you get away from something that can run faster than you and jump 15 to 20 feet straight up in the air?
When I went to Yellowstone as I child I purchased a $10 cougar stick. I was told apon seeing a cougar to simply hit it in the face…I wonder how many idots besides me bought a $10 stick with yellowstone written on it.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
by DayGeaux on Jul 13, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are lots of animals that will give up if you fight back. The problem with Cougars is that they are very good and stealthy hunters.
You may not see them before they pounce and kill.
The SERIOUS aspect of the problem in places like Vancouver Island and the lower mainland is the new housing developments that cut right into cougar territory. The bastards generally leave people alone, but they ARE territorial, and the human presence also pushes away their prey. Humans become targets, and like you say, they often don’t realize it until after the fact…
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Perhaps they've been trained by Army...

I throw raps that attack like the Japs on Pearl Harbor/MC's be out like bank robbers/Fleeing the scene, to be a sole survivor/DJ the getaway driver/Tried to dip but he dive, I socialize on vocal vibes/On tracks stabbed up with razor sharp knives
by Anthony Pace on Jul 13, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Seen plenty of black bears in Alaska that just had no fear at all of humans, they roamed neighborhoods getting into trash cans and just didn’t care about the people around them. Sort of like 200lb racoons, they don’t want you they just want your stuff.
The bigger bears are a completely different story, to them you are a cross between an invader into their territory or a tasty snack. If they decide to be rid of you then you are a going to be gotten rid of.
Yeah we have some black bears down here and unless they have a cub around all you have to do is waive ur arms around and shout and they’ll run off.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
Cubs make all bears a different story all together.
Heck you aren’t even supposed to go near a moose that has babies if you want to live.
Grizzlies can become your friend..
…No worries….
Sincerely,
Timothy Treadwell
/seriously, that was one crazy film….very sad, dude had some major mental issues…
by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Jul 13, 2010 7:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I derived a great deal of sick pleasure out of that film. The first time I watched it, I intended to laugh right from the start.
The second time though, I really felt bad for him.
From all reports she (Cyborg) pretty much only spars men, and has been known to put some out during training. - Rudinho479
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jul 14, 2010 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions
stay out of Alaska then.
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
"what the f**k is the internet?"
Pain don't hurt...
More specifically
“Do Not PRO WRESTLE the bears, do not tackle the bears”
(I saw the “puroresu” part immediately.)
by Chortles on Jul 13, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So shoot wrestling is fine just leave the tables and chairs at home. check.
I get more rec's then a Toyota!
I'm guessing "tackle" was meant to cover the shoot wrestling part
The ‘puroresu’ katakana are easy as hell to pick out.
More specifically: “do not puroresu the bears”, so no fake knee bar. As I already said, bears come to fight, not to wrestle.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Initially launched as something of a post-MMA corruption organization with more adherence to sporting parameters, the promotion now features bantamweight tournaments with fighters of almost zero recognizable name value to the hardest of hardcore North American fans.
The Japanesse organizations don’t need to focus on the North American fans right now. What they need to do is get their own fan base working again. Don’t forget that Dynamite was still the biggest show last year. They have problems over there but it isn’t like every thing they do is a complete failure. What was the attendance on the last Dream show? I bet the gate was pretty good. You don’t have to have the best fighters in the world to make money. I’ll bet the XFC banked it hard at the last event.
The UFC has finished sucking up and spitting out most of the top Japanesse talent now. I think the UFC grabbing any one with any talent hurt MMA in Japan more than any thing else. Not only are some of the stars coming back but I think fewer of the Japanesse fighters on the way up are going to automatically make the jump to the UFC. That move really hasn’t worked out for many of them but has crushed some careers. Uno would be an example. . Because of that I have more hope for the Japanese scene than the article authors do.
HTML5 + WebM now! Death to Flash!!!
by j.villain on Jul 13, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Why is it that a majority of the Fighters from Japan that sign with SF or UFC or not Successful,
Do you think it’s by design?
"I'm Feel Good"
-Wandi
Those that design steroids
(hides)
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
because the majority of those fighters are in the wrong weight class
by pandaboy99 on Jul 13, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Wow, another “JMMA is irrelevant because I don’t care about it” article. Wow BE has gone to shit recently.
Hahahahahaha
That was brilliant. At no point was that said in the article. If anything it’s the hope that Japanese MMA can find it’s way back to the front.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Eh
There are a lot of great and exciting fights in DREAM, Sengoku, and Deep.
If you’re only going to cover the big events in MMA, that’s fine, but where do you draw the line? Even the UFC has meaningless fights. Example: Big Nog vs Mir, any Kimbo Slice fight. Hell you guys spent two shows and probably over an hour talking about Kimbo Slice, but you can’t make time for Aoki snapping a guys foot off?
Will you ignore the prelims on a UFC show? Or Strikeforce Challengers? Bellator? WEC events?
It’s your blog, so do what you want, but if it’s your decision to ignore fight promotions you’re just lowering the quality and depth of your own coverage.
I think fans will migrate accordingly.
I don’t think that’s what Luke was saying. Part of what he’s pointing out is that, even (or especially) in Japan, the fight scene just doesn’t generate interest. I think that all of the staff and writers here at least appreciate that there are great and exciting fights, but I think there’s also the recognition that top fighters aren’t staying or being generated in Japan; that’s at least partially a factor of the severe lack of energy, excitement or enthusiasm in Japan itself. The more the fans stay away, the less the advertisers pay, the harder it is for the promotions to draw or keep good fighters, the less exciting and relevant the fights become. It’s hard to dispute that the scene just isn’t as vibrant – on all fronts – now compared to three years ago, or five years ago, and the trend continues. There ARE exciting fights now, but for how long? And I you say “fans will migrate accordingly”, but the Japanese promotions are hemorrhaging fans; that’s exactly the point that Luke is making.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
I think.
This is just like all the blog writers rushing to declare the end of Fedor’s career, when he’s 2 years younger than Carwin, and only lost due to a technical mistake.
MMA blogs want to push a story and a narrative to get readers. That’s fine.
But you guys push too fast and too hard without taking everything into consideration.
Popular is subjective. I bet more people watch HDNET and Dream than actually respond to BE in a given day. BE is a big site but aren’t you just catering to a vocal minority? How about all the people that don’t take the time to post and just read the site?
If you guys are putting some stamp on Dream and saying it’s pointless you’re basically giving casual fans a big green light to ignore it to. That’s not how you draw a casual fan in and make them a hardcore fan, and that’s what really grows the spot in my opinion.
I don’t see how pointing out that MMA’s popularity within Japan has gone down and is far removed from Pride’s heyday (which has been acknowledged by pretty much everyone) is telling casual fans to ignore them.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Luke Said...
That he doesn’t talk about it because it’s “ratings” poison.
People don’t call in and he doesn’t get as much web traffic.
I.E. I don’t want to talk about it because it’s not as popular as Brock Lesnar’s tattoo.
If a leading MMA blog marginalizes Japanese MMA then what incentive does a casual fan have to learn more herself?
If nobody is talking about, why call in about it? Why not say the same crap every other caller is saying… the same boring bullet points the UFC have thrown out for weeks.
Luke also did a piece on edification and educating fans, and if he’s not educating fans he’s not doing his job.
Ignoring an entire region of MMA is not educating fans IMO and contradicts what he’s setting out to do.
And it’s not just Japan. We see great fighters from Europe, and Korean in Dream too. Guys that might make it to the UFC one day and we’ll have fans ignorant of their early careers.
by Tanhauser on Jul 13, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That he doesn’t talk about it because it’s "ratings" poison.
Luke’s been straight up about MMA Nation being aimed that casual fans. Which makes sense…if a radio show aimed at a niche audience is going to survive he’s needs as many listeners as possible. And unfortunately the vast majority of MMA fans in North America probably care more about Brock’s tattoo than whether or not Kikuno can become the next great Japanese LW.
I’ve never seen any proof of BE shying away from coverage of the fight scenes in other countries. And even if they went the Nightmare of Battle route and did nothing but Asian MMA coverage that still wouldn’t affect a single thing about what this piece is talking about. Pointing out that repeated articles about Brock would get more hits that a SRC card breakdown doesn’t mean that they are about to throw JMMA coverage out the window.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
You’re way over-estimating the influence of blogs like this in Japan, though. In Japan, MMA awareness – nevermind popularity – has almost completely disappeared from the social consciousness. It’s not like people are flying in droves from LA or Toronto to Tokyo for the fights; it’s not like any of us are tuning in to the Japanese television stations which are the connection to the Japanese advertisers. They really don’t care about MMA, and they really don’t care that North America and some of the rest of the world does care. No matter how interested we are, no matter how many fans are reached and made through this (North American based, English language) blog, the Japanese STILL don’t care, and that’s why the scene is dying. Hell, there are lots of people in Japan who wouldn’t tune in just BECAUSE people in North America like it (not many, but a few). The cultural and social dynamic is totally different, totally separate, and nothing that Luke or anyone else here does or does not decide to cover touches that.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Wait what?
So American MMA fans shouldn’t be educated about MMA in other countries because those countries care less themselves? So we shouldn’t care about Jungle Fights in Brazil because Brazil doesn’t care about Jungle fights and it isn’t on public TV? (Some UFC contenders have come from Jungle fights btw)
Sorry, but that’s really short sighted.
I think it’s over-estimating your reach and research to say nobody in Japan cares about MMA anymore. The market has shrunk because there isn’t a huge international Japanese star yet, but they still have 3 promotions running a few shows a year. For a country that size somebody has to care.
The last Dream had a giant billboard over a huge train station in a major city. I forget which one. They still fill 20,000 seat areans.
Is it PRIDE in 2003? Of course not, but it’s not dead.
Again, it’s MMA blog Hyperbole to want to declare eras over as quickly as possible, or starting as quickly as possible. I’m not sure why fans and writers want to jump into the future so quickly but we need to be less short-sighted.
I think it’s more about the Japanese fighters falling short in the UFC, more than nobody in Japan cares about MMA.
Wait what?
So American MMA fans shouldn’t be educated about MMA in other countries because those countries care less themselves? So we shouldn’t care about Jungle Fights in Brazil because Brazil doesn’t care about Jungle fights and it isn’t on public TV? (Some UFC contenders have come from Jungle fights btw)
Sorry, but that’s really short sighted.
I think it’s over-estimating your reach and research to say nobody in Japan cares about MMA anymore. The market has shrunk because there isn’t a huge international Japanese star yet, but they still have 3 promotions running a few shows a year. For a country that size somebody has to care.
The last Dream had a giant billboard over a huge train station in a major city. I forget which one. They still fill 20,000 seat areans.
Is it PRIDE in 2003? Of course not, but it’s not dead.
Again, it’s MMA blog Hyperbole to want to declare eras over as quickly as possible, or starting as quickly as possible. I’m not sure why fans and writers want to jump into the future so quickly but we need to be less short-sighted.
I think it’s more about the Japanese fighters falling short in the UFC, more than nobody in Japan cares about MMA.
Oh, hey, thanks for reading stuff into what I said that wasn’t there!
I never, ever said, nor does the article say, that American MMA fans shouldn’t be educated about MMA in other countries. That’s not the point; from a business aspect, we don’t matter. We’re not numbers. We don’t get counted. It sucks, sure, because there are probably lots of people here that love the scene over there; I’m one of them. But we aren’t buying tickets. We aren’t buying products that Japanese advertisers sell. We don’t show up on Japanese television ratings. Caring about/being educated about the sport on THIS side of the ocean, and being the target demographic that provides the capital that a promotion needs to operate in Japan are not intrinsically linked. IT’S TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.
It doesn’t matter how many people show up at a show IF it isn’t enough to make the sport profitable. MMA still has a hardcore base over there, but that base is not enough to maintain the profitability of the business in Japan at the high level needed to attract and retain top talent. MMA in Japan attracts some people, but there’s not cultural drive or impulse behind it now. 20 000 people watch an MMA event; 30 000 people watch the Edmonton Eskimos play. I like the CFL, but top guys leave for practice roster spots in the NFL, and that’s from a league turning consistent profits. At least some of the events run by the “3 promotions” you cite are LOSING money, and at least one of those promotions is almost dead.
Listen, if you want to piss into the wind and claim that all we have to do is talk about the Japanese scene more in North America and all will be fine, you’re welcome to take that position. I think that the data on declining revenue, attendance numbers and television ratings, the Japanese response to the death of Pride and the organized crime scandal, the isolationist and protectionist attitude of most Japanese business and cultural institutions, common sense, and just about any other measure of the situation suggests to me that you’re wrong. But since time is the only thing that will tell, feel free to watch and wait.
But don’t mistake one thing: I’d be just as happy as anyone else to see a Japanese MMA revival. But I KNOW that nothing we do over here will affect the business over there. That doesn’t mean I’m “short sighted” or don’t care. I’m just not egotistical enough to believe that, given present material realities, there’s anything you, me, or anyone else east of the Pacific can do about it.
Rest of BE: please help me out here. I can’t restate this any more different ways, and I’m certain that I’m right. Please tell me if I’m out to lunch. Either way, I’m done.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
The dude saw someone say something negative about something he likes and is misreading the whole topic. No where did it say they were going to stop their thorough coverage of Japanese MMA, Luke just pointed out that when he talks about Japanese MMA on his radio show people change the channel. The rest of this guys ranting is way off base and completely groundless, he’s just mad that someone took a reasonable view of the way things stand instead of loving the thing he loves.
I think Sengoku has the right idea
I’m no expert on JMMA but it’s my understanding that Japanese MMA fans want to watch Japanese fighters. Sengoku can’t afford to buy the services of the current Japanese stars so they’re trying to build new ones. They don’t have the money to compete at DREAM’s level so they have to create their own niche. They seem to be doing a lot to tap into the emerging Korean market as well.
It depends on what you are talking about when you say “Japanese fans”. The biggest draw the sport has ever had in Japan was Bob Sapp, he became a marketing machine over there. Japanese MMA fans probably do want to see Japanese fighters but the general tv audience that MMA shows play to just wants to be entertained. It’s that mainstream network tv audience that the sport is really missing right now not Japanese MMA fan interest.
I don't think a Bob Sapp level draw is a realistic goal though
Although maybe that’s what the TV execs want, in which case they need to lower their expectations. I highly doubt JMMA will ever reach those kind of levels again and even if it does, it’s not sustainable. Eventually people lose interest and if you can’t find a new spectacle to entertain them they just stop watching.
They need to find/develop the Asian GSP or Brock Lesnar, a highly talented athlete who is also marketable. Unfortunately, that might be just as hard as finding the next Bob Sapp and it’s certainly not going to happen overnight.
When you are dealing with network tv then ratings are what matters. I agree that more realistic goals are what they really need in Japan but when you are trying to be on primetime on network tv then ratings are going to be the measuring stick. TBS is going to be expecting the kinds of ratings MMA used to get if they are going to put it in the prime tv slots but Dream just isn’t able to generate numbers at that level. That doesn’t mean that Dream can’t generate numbers that would allow them to survive on a lower level (sort of like Strikeforce on CBS vs Showtime).
DREAM has always been on a collision course with failure. Since day one, they’ve aimed to be PRIDE’s replacement but never have come close to achieving it. They’ve tried to use all of PRIDE’s tricks even though the same tricks that helped PRIDE early just won’t work in the modern era. There’s no Nobuhiko Takada magic serum this time.
For DREAM to stay viable as a moderately sized MMA company, they need to rescale. Lower their expectations and begin to run smaller venues. As it is they run 10,000 attendance venues or more. Not to mention continuously running the Saitama Super Arena which can hold upwards of 38,000 depending on the arrangement. Then at the end of the show, the ratings aren’t very good and they lose money. DREAM is a drain on both TBS and FEG as it is. If they couldn’t sell out the Saitama Super Arena with Aoki/Kawajiri there’s no fight DREAM can promote that will.
But DREAM won’t rescale. It’s a pride issue. They would rather die failing to live up to PRIDE’s legacy then rescale and be a bigger Deep or Pancrase. Sengoku, for all that you can say about them, are attempting to do what they can to stay afloat in the Japanese MMA scene. DREAM will not do that. They will continue to run their Saitama Super Arena shows, doing at best half houses until there’s no possible way they can continue any longer. All the while hoping for the return of a Sakuraba-like star to carry them to glory.
by Hawk52 on Jul 13, 2010 5:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sounds like pro wrestling's mindset in Japan
At one point it was rumored that the only reason New Japan Pro Wrestling was holding their annual January 4th Tokyo Dome show (aka their Wrestlemania) was because the sponsors themselves wanted it… it took years for NJPW to rebuild, and it seems more to have returned to “head” of the industry instead of actually helping the industry overall. =/
“Rather die to aim high than to live and aim low”… yeah, that’s not unheard of in East Asian culture; not saying it’s a norm, but it doesn’t seem to be a Japanese thing exclusively, or even just Asian.
That’s pretty much it. In Japanese MMA IS Pro-Wrestling for the most part. So they share the same genes. They’d rather die then downscale.
New Japan’s still somewhat rocky, but they’ve rebounded nicely. They did exactly what DREAM will have to do. Find a core group of talented natives and push them. If NJPW hadn’t gone youth orientated when they did, they probably would be dead right now. Even a group like All Japan, as crippled as they are, holds a big show that doesn’t do well if only for pride reasons every so often.
It’s almost impossible to “book” MMA though. So DREAM’s got a hell of a mountain to climb. All they can hope is someone catches on at some point.
There's also the little factoid with NewJa
That they were able to utilize the preceding generation better than certain promotions*, and in any case seem to have had non-acrimonious departures, i.e. Masahiro Chono being the last of the three Musketeers to leave, and only because they couldn’t exactly guarantee what he’d be up to going forward under a new contract.
- See Pro Wrestling NOAH, though they were always screwed in this department I think due to the fanbase…
"It's good, only occassionally great."
Good is good enough for me.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
by Sergio Non on Jul 13, 2010 6:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

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