The Kingpin: The Best Fighters in MMA History
Yesterday I proposed the idea that, at any given time, one man will stand above all his peers as the definitive top fighter in the sport. He'll have a track record of success, superlative skillset, and that special something that just lights up the room (aura, presence, charisma, whatever you call it, you know it when you see it). Let's call this fighter "The Kingpin." He's more than a champion-he's the cock of the walk-and in the 17 year history of mixed martial arts, only a handful of athletes can claim this prize.
Pioneer Era:
Royce Gracie (11/93-4/95): No one ever stood on pedestal above his fellow fighters quite the way Royce Gracie did. Sure, he had some advantages: his family owned the UFC, they invented Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and he had been fighting his entire life. There were some significant disadvantages too. In an open weight contest, Royce's weight topped out at around 180 pounds. He wasn't anything special athletically. If you compared him to an NFL player, his metrics would match up with the kickers. One of the scrawny ones who only pretends to try to make a tackle on a kickoff return.
Yet, there he was, laying waste to oversized steroid-fueled specimens like Kimo Leopoldo and Ken Shamrock. From the day the sport started in Colorado at UFC 1 until the day he left it all behind when his brother sold his share of the company to SEG after UFC 5, Royce Gracie was, without a single question, the best in the business.
Ken Shamrock (7/95-5/96): Shamrock stepped into a vacuum with Royce's unexpected departure from the sport. It wasn't quite the same, as everyone had seen Royce make him tap in the semifinals of UFC 1. The aura of invincibility wasn't there. But, he had the physical qualities and the presence to seize the Kingpin mantle. A win over UFC tournament champion Dan Severn at UFC 6 gave him legitimacy-and a title belt to call his own, the UFC Superfight Title which he defended twice before falling to Severn in a rematch at UFC 9.
Honorable Mention: Rickson Gracie
Mark Coleman (7/96-7/97): It's hard to explain to people who weren't there the effect Mark Coleman had on the sport of MMA. He was like nothing we had ever seen. Imagine the body of Ken Shamrock, the wrestling skill of Dan Severn, all attached to the instincts of a pitbull. Coleman flashed across the cage like a dart, double legging anyone in his path, and then rained down punches and headbutts until someone made him stop. Maurice Smith proved he was human at UFC 14, but before that we had our doubts.
Honorable Mention: Bas Rutten
Cross Trained Era:
Frank Shamrock (04/97-09/99): For the first time since Gracie, the sport had a worthy Kingpin when Frank Juarez Shamrock took the throne from an exhausted Coleman. Shamrock had the star power and look of his adopted brother Ken, but added to the mix a level of fighting prowess that left all others in his wake. Shamrock was one of the earliest cross trained fighters, adding kickboxing and guard work to his already lethal catch wrestling submissions. The end result was the best fighter the sport had yet seen, unbeaten in the UFC when he decided to retire after his UFC 22 title defense over Tito Ortiz.
Honorable Mention: Mark Kerr, Igor Vovchancyn
Who followed Shamrock as the top fighter in the industry? Find out after the jump.
Kazushi Sakuraba (11/99-03/01): Kazushi Sakuraba barrelled into the opening provided by Shamrock's retirement like a freight train. At a little over 180 pounds, Sakuraba was too much for light heavyweights and even heavyweights to handle. His fight with Royce Gracie at the 2000 Pride Grand Prix was a historic moment: two Kingpins did battle in the ring for the first time. After 90 grueling minutes, the towel came flying in from Gracie's side and the sport had a new and definitive top dog.
Honorable Mention: Tito Ortiz
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (03/01-03/03): Sakuraba's loss to Brazilian Wanderlei Silva threw the Kingpin system into disarray. As dominant as Silva looked, he couldn't assume the crown: the memory of his loss to Tito Ortiz was too fresh in fan's minds to allow Silva to take the Kingpin mantle. Into the void came another Brazilian, heavyweight sensation Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Nogueira was the best submission artist, perhaps in the history of MMA, but that wasn't what made him a star. It was a tireless spirit and a will to win that saw him overcome all obstacles-except one. Fedor Emelianenko.
Honorable Mention: Matt Hughes
Wanderlei Silva (03/03-12/04): Nogueria's loss didn't immediately propel Fedor into the top spot. In fact, at the time most favored the Brazilian in a rematch. Instead, it was time for Silva to ascend to the pinnacle. Enough time had passed to erase memories of the embarrassing loss to Ortiz. There was also the matter of 16 wins and zero losses in the 2000s to validate Silva's claim. On December 31, 2004, everything changed. Silva fell to kickboxer Mark Hunt while Fedor beat Nogueira in the third fight of a stunning trilogy.
Honorable Mention: Fedor Emelianenko, B.J. Penn
Fedor Emelianenko (12/04-06/10): What can be said that hasn't already been uttered? Ten wins, four against championship level fighters. Skill at a level unmatched, not just among heavyweights, but by fighters generally. For five and a half years one man stood above all others as the Kingpin of MMA. That era is over.
Honorable Mention: Chuck Liddell
Modern era:
Georges St. Pierre (06/10-????): St. Pierre is the first third generation fighter to sit atop the entire industry. All of his significant wins come in the post The Ultimate Fighter era. He's taken the template Frank Shamrock and Don Frye created, the mold of the cross trained fighter, and shattered it. St. Pierre is a level above his predecessors in every metric: popularity, athleticism, skill. And that's the way it should be. In five years a new generation will enter the sport who have trained specifically for MMA their entire lives. Their role model will be Georges St. Pierre, the Kingpin of Mixed Martial Arts.
Honorable Mention: Anderson Silva
303 comments
|
3 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
kingpin of mma?
basically ur just listing the #1 p4p guy through the years and giving him a new title
snowden im still under the belief u write articles simply for the sake of comments
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
I like this piece, but the comments may be a little wacky.
All P4P discussions get people into a fuss, 9 of them at once will be even wackier.
Personally I enjoy the historically perspective of the whole thing. Nice article Snowden.
A) you’re really getting into a semantics discussion
B) " He’ll have a track record of success, superlative skillset, and that special something that just lights up the room" – That is not something usually factored in to P4P
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I was going to mention this as well. It’s not just the best fighter, its a great fighter than has the “it” factor that really gets people excited to watch them fight.
How did I end up on this bandwagon and why does everything say property of Chael Sonnen?
So this article would be based on a North American perspective I suppose...
Otherwise Bob Sapp might deserve consideration.
I don’t think so. There’s a difference between the top drawing fighter and the top fighter. Bob was never considered the top fighter or anything close to it.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough...
That "it" factor or “that special something that just lights up the room” is relative to the audience though… Especially when we are talking about cultures as diverse as Japan and the US. Kazushi Sakuraba would have probably held that title as the number one guy for longer in Japan for example.
It is all splitting hair at this point though. I enjoyed the article.
Isn't Don Frye normally credidted as one of the first cross trained MMA fighters?
At least he was before Shamrock, except maybe some of his Pancrase days.
And Wandy’s loss to Vitor was the embarrassing one, getting out-muscled by Tito holds no shame but what Vitor did to Wandy, he still has nightmares over.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Jul 13, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Frye was a wrestler who could strike, but he was absolutely screwed off his back. His strikes weren’t pretty, but he hit hard and fast, mostly because of his athleticism. But he didn’t even have a defensive guard at a time when guys were still winning by throwing up armbars from their backs on a regular basis, and he could be outstruck by more technical guys.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Some will quibble with your choices (other will rabidly call you names, but hey, it’s the internet), but I can’t see a lot to dispute here.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Its the internet people will find a way to dissect this list ten times over. No Machida Era? 5/09-5/10?
Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ultmma
http://www.ULTMMA.com
Joe Rogan is a Sad Panda
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Really
Anderson Silva is only an honorable mention? Baffled. Severely.
by Matthew DiRienzo on Jul 13, 2010 12:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed!
How is Anderson Silva an “honorable mention”?
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Jul 13, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
because demian maia
that’s how.
everything dana white says is a complete lie
by slantedwindows on Jul 13, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If you base your judgement on fights alone, Silva should be the modern era's "kingpin"...
If you base it on other facts, however, including drawing power, star power, business deals, brand, etc then I think Snowden is correct.
by funkywanderer on Jul 13, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
then it should be chuck liddell instead of fedor then
"How you expect to run with the wolves come night when you spend all day sparring with the puppies" - Omar Little
by The Omaplatapus on Jul 13, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
That is correct, but I was only disputing the Anderson Silva vs GSP ranking.
by funkywanderer on Jul 13, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Nahhh dog
He’s talking about ‘04-’10. Sure, that’s when Chuck’s legendary title run started, but Fedor was already amidst his legendary Pride run. Chuck’s brutal ass whooping at the hands of Rampage was still fresh in everyone’s mind. Not to mention that Fedor was dominant for 7 years as the ruler of his division. Side by side, from ‘04 to now, you can’t even mention Chuck and Fedor in the same breath.
Pride was king in ‘04; TUF hadn’t come out and barely anyone in the U.S. had any idea what MMA was.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 13, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
TUF came out in 05 if I recall...
Which fits in the 04-06 time frame. I guess it depends on who you’re polling for this question. If you poll the casual fan, then Chuck was without a doubt the kingpin. If you poll the hard-core fans then it will be Fedor.
by funkywanderer on Jul 13, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
who’s opinion are we going value more- someone who has extensive knowledge of the sport, or someone who casually follows it??
Basically, you’re saying that people who know what they’re talking about consider Fedor the best in that time frame.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"
"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler."
-Socrates
by ElliotMatheny on Jul 13, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think so. When the slot was open Chuck wasn’t even considered the best fighter in his weight class. The loss to Rampage really hurt him in the broader picture.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmm...interesting...
You see, the whole reason we’re on this debate is that I was trying to defend your select of GSP over Silva.
If you apply your own logic, then you must change your modern era select to Silva because GSP lost to Serra in 07.
I was simply trying to argue that brand, marketability, “star-quality” should weigh into the argument.
Given those arguments…you must select Liddell and GSP.
If we’re simply talking fight-bad-assery, then you take Fedor and Silva.
by funkywanderer on Jul 13, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Not at all
Because GSP has established himself as the top guy AFTER the Serra loss. The Kingpin slot opened up last month. By then the Serra loss was avenged and old news.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I mis-read your dates...
And now that I understand them, I believe the reign of Fedor should have ended in 2006, at which point Anderson Silva would have taken over.
I like Fedor, but I think he gets way too much credit.
by funkywanderer on Jul 13, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If GSP's success + draw > Anderson's success + limited draw
Then Chuck’s success + excellent draw > Fedor’s sucess + not so good draw
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The factors like drawing power, business deals – (as if he broker his own deals), brand is similar to stating that certain artists like say Justin Bieber is hotter than (insert any recording artist) because he sold an incredible amount of records at a young age, he’s a much bigger trending topic on Twitter, and he has so many great product endorsement deals than . . . Green Day.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jul 13, 2010 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry...I'm not sure which position you're taking...
Are you saying that you agree that GSP has those assets, and is therefore the kingpin?
Or are you inferring that whether he is “hot” or not is irrelevant because Silva is the man?
by funkywanderer on Jul 13, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m saying stating that an athlete has better drawing-star power, better business deals, etc. doesn’t really factor into making the fighter an MMA Kingpin. That’s why I mentioned Justin Bieber, is his music great because he’s been a hot trending topic?
GSP is “hot” and he’s very relevant.
Kenny Florian finishes fights! GSP would feel much better about his victories – as he said himself – if he finished his fights decisively. But in my opinion, that just goes to show the great level of competition that he’s against.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jul 13, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Well..
GSP is at least as dominant (I’d make the argument that his resume is more impressive) and a bigger draw and given that starpower is something Snowden brought up…there’s your answer.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I like your list
My only nitpick is only an honorable mention for Hughes. Hughes is one of the few to defeat GSP and he also defeated B.J. Penn.
"Even the Swedes are getting mad."-Randy Hahn
"It's very cozy in the sin bin."-Randy Hahn
Exactly! And GSP is "Kingpin of MMA"???
I don’t get that at all.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Jul 13, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Hughes beat him 6 years ago, then got crushed the next 2 times they fought. GSP is the current kingpin because what he’s done in the past few years is astonishing, and he’s done it against the toughest competition of any fighter at any weight.
by Hardcharger on Jul 13, 2010 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hughes is an honorable mention though?
For his timeframe, he beat the best of the best and beat some of the current considered-P4P fighters like GSP. Age eventaully overcame Hughes and sharpened a young GSP, not the fact that he wasn’t a better p4p than GSP.
That’s my argument.
I find it pretty biased to give a fighter like Matt Hughes or Anderson SIlva “honorable mentions” when you place them above fighters who fought through several different time frames.
This type of subjectivity is tough to pinpoint, IMO.
Semper Fi
by ChicagoMarine on Jul 13, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
“Honorable mention” in this context means the guy has an argument for an all-time top ten list. So I don’t think it’s the insult you are perceiving it to be.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Hughes was a bad mother for a long time...
It is hard enough to argue P4P fighters in the current time frame arguing them historically is even more tenuous. I think the goal here was to outline some of the best fighters of all time and fighters that were instrumental is shaping the sport.
Matt Hughes
I tend to overlook Matt Hughes like many fans just because he’s been beaten but when you look at his record and just take note that he fought in the dark ages and the modern era with an overall winning record.
There’s a strong chance that GSP will propbably not scratch 35 fights in his career. So yeah, GSP defeated Hughes soundly but comparing both fighters is really difficult when you look at Hughes’ entire career.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jul 13, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hughes was also the first IMO
To really be truly great at what is now modern, new-school MMA wrestling – elite or near-elite in all areas – takedowns, TDD, GnP, excellent submission and excellent submission defense.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude
This makes your last article make SOOO much more sense. Thanks.
You should do a full write up of Sakuraba.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. I really understand the other article better now.
by PlantingaFan on Jul 13, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with the GSP over Silva part, but the rest looks good.
Interesting breakdown and I enjoy the historical perspective of the whole thing.
You will probably catch a little flack for the fact that Pride dominates the list, for 11 years and there is some wiggle room there, but largely I like your selections.
Didn’t Bas have a grand total of three fights that weren’t in Pancrase?
Ya, I love Bas, but I don’t even think he deserves an honourable mention.
by CstBoog on Jul 13, 2010 12:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Because he was never a ridiculously dominant force like the others on this list? Because the overwhelmning majority of his fights took place in an org that you couldn’t throw a punch with a closed fist, let alone on the ground, and was known for working some fights atthe time? For having just a win over TK, then a controversial split decision over Randleman?
Again, I love Bas, but rationally speaking, he’s nowhere near any sort of historical “kingpin” of the sport.
by CstBoog on Jul 13, 2010 1:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In 1996-1997 people absolutely considered Bas among the very best. You may disagree in retrospect, but people in the sport and the hardcore fans certainly considered him in the conversation.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
So, in 1996-1997, before Bas had EVER had a fight in an organizationwhere you could throw a punch with a closed fist, where you couldn’t escape a submission by grabbing the ropes, he was perceived by many as “among the best”
and sure, he WAS “among” the best. But so were dozens of others in that era, Maurice smith, oleg taktarov, and so on. I don’t see how Bas’ prowess in slapfighting makes him stand head and shoulders above the other greats of that era.
by CstBoog on Jul 13, 2010 2:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That’s a valid opinion. Others don’t agree.
I certainly don’t agree with your contention that Oleg belongs anywhere near a list like this. In the time period we are talking about he got knocked cold by Renzo and Gary Goodridge and had one of the worst fights ever with Marco Ruas…
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I really dislike your usage of the word Kingpin.
Surely you could come up with something better than that.
by rainmaker6 on Jul 13, 2010 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
RANDY COUTURE???
the man won belts in 2 different weight classes.. surely he deserves a mention here hes MMA’s living legend!!
by MooreUNITED on Jul 13, 2010 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So did BJ Penn.
- - - - -
VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jul 13, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
His legend is more of sustaining a high level of competition and success – he never had a single period of dominance where he dwarfed just about every other fighter’s performance at a given time. Whether it was Enson Inoue, Ricco Rodriguez, or Chuck Liddell, there’s always been a foil to keep Couture out of the P4P #1 talk, or in this case, being the Kingpin.
by sBruce24 on Jul 13, 2010 1:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t get why some of of you are already complaining about the honorable mentions. He’s picking ONE person for a certain amount of time. They are either the kingpin or they’re not. The honorable mentions are the people that were right there, but not quite at the level. Everyone already debated the Anderson/GSP one in the last article he wrote, so if you’re not understanding why he picked GSP, go read that.
This discussion is gonna go downhill quickly.
http://www.instrength.com
A lot of people are thinking Hughes instead of Big Nog/Wanderlei in that time frame and there are some valid points for that. As for GSP or Silva well that’s one that can be open for debate too. Discussions of the subject aren’t all that big of a deal, heck it should be expected.
It is intended to be a discussion piece about all these great fighters!
I like Hughes a lot but there is a problem: during this era he was the UFC’s least successful PPV draw of all time. If you pencil him in, it is for a short timeframe. Once he lost to BJ it leaps over to Fedor.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I just see Hughes in cage accomplishments as being more important at that timeframe than his drawing ability, he was definately on top in terms of divisional dominance. I agree that after the Penn loss it would go to Fedor. I don’t really care for Hughes myself but it’s hard to discount what he accomplished in the sport.
I wasn’t saying don’t discuss it. Obviously that’s what we’re all here for. When I wrote the comment, all anyone had said about the honorable mentions was along the lines of “I don’t get it”, and weren’t offering up much of a discussion. In the Hughes case, 49er16 did make one small statement, which was fleshed out a little better by others after what I said.
I was referring to the fact that people weren’t understanding the point he was trying to make, rather than arguing the validity of his choices. And trying to temper GSP/Andy round 2 a bit, because that’s already been done.
/overexplanation
http://www.instrength.com
"weren't understanding the point he was trying tto make"
By “he”, I meant Snowden. Just to be clear.
http://www.instrength.com
I like the Era designations more than anything
We call the present the modern era, but 10 years from now what will it be called?
People do not like to think. If one thinks, one must reach conclusions. Conclusions are not always pleasant.
- Helen Keller
You forgot this guy

█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
by thetakeover on Jul 13, 2010 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
-----------------------

a life: it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come -Lester Freamon
by eastcoastatlas on Jul 13, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
the greatest one-gloved fighter OF ALL TIME
by Body Triangle on Jul 13, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
who in his camp
said “Yeah Art going out there with one glove is great idea. Go for it!”
Follow me on Twitter http://twitter.com/ultmma
http://www.ULTMMA.com
has anyone else ever lost by submission (bad position) before?
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Mythical Top Fighter
Jonathan, I love that you listed Nogueira over Hughes. I disagree, but I like it all the same.
For those wondering about Couture’s exclusion, he was never the best in any era but was among the best across several eras. It is a “whole greater than the sum of the parts” circumstance.
Oh, and I think you’re just hating on Anderson Silva, to which I am largely sympathetic.
Twitter @brettcjones
"BJ on the BE" - Kierkegaard
What I don't understand...
All those guys were beat brutally, or left.
Except for Fedor.
He lost due to a technical mistake, not because he looked really slow and old like Coleman, or has no chin like Couture.
Fedor is younger than Carwin by two years, and Brock is only one year older.
Sorry, but he’s not done yet, and as much as pundits want to write his demise to make up blog posts and get traffic, his story isn’t finished… yet.
Also, Silva is much more dominate than GSP, mostly because he can finish a fight, but also because he can dominate guys above his weight class, and not below it.
could not agree more ...
its comical to hear people think because Fedor fought in Japan he was not big … 70 million people there … they used to outdraw world cup games on tv … let alone Korea, Russia, Europe … he is the best known fighter of all time … and the best of all time imo …
Fedor
Was never the top draw in Japan
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions
But he's never going to get that status back outside of the UFC.
Even if he comes back to beat Wedum and Alistair, those are really the only top-level guys left outside of Zuffa (Bigfoot is good, but not there yet IMO). The dominance displayed by GSP, and even Silva, has been at least parallel to Fedor recently. But if they lose, they can bounce back and prove themselves against the very best competition in their weight in the next fight. I don’t think Fedor can do the same outside of the UFC, so his era is effectively over for now.
by sBruce24 on Jul 13, 2010 2:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Who is really more dominant?
Silva has wins over the current #4, 6, 7, and 24 middleweights #6 and 11 (x2) light heavyweights (although the Franklin wins should be counted at middleweight.
GSP has wins over the current #2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12 welterweights and #2 (x2) and 9 lightweights (both at 170).
Silva has one major win over a light heavyweight (Griffin) and that is nowhere near as impressive to me as GSP’s second win over Penn.
Finishing fights isn’t particularly important in this conversation to me.
And GSP is a much bigger draw.
It’s pretty clear he’s the man right now.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Exactly
First of all, you’re absolutely right about GSP vs. Anderson. I don’t see it as very close.
Second, if Brock beats Cain, he might become the new “kingpin”. He’s certainly the top ratings draw, and he might very well become the face of MMA very soon.
by PlantingaFan on Jul 13, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep.
People on here just love to shit on Snowden. Even if he makes a good point they twist it. Brookhouse, just like Snowden, is on the money with this one.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
by Geno Mrosko on Jul 13, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think it's "clear"..
GSP or Anderson? That’s tough to call.
Humiliating and whooping Forrest unlike any other top LHW has done before is as good of, if not better than GSP’s win over BJ Penn, though the latter is a bigger fight. “Nowhere near as impressive” is pretty ridiculous considering Forrest beat Page and Shogun only 2 fights back. Lets just call that a wash right there.
And when GSP lost to Serra, Anderson was already defending his title.
Like p4p, everybody’s idea of which criteria weighs more heavily than others will cause differences in opinion, but saying GSP is the “clear” top dog right now? It’s not clear.
If we use the poll from Jonathan’s last article, it should be somewhat of an indication that GSP’s performances (and perceived lack of finish/dominance) do factor into what people think of being the top fighter.
It is clear to me. That’s all I can speak for. I can’t speak for clearness to anyone else, but to me GSP is clearly ahead of Anderson in the context set up by Jonathan.
The Forrest win is a very good win, but it’s not like Forrest was factoring into the P4P conversation like Penn against GSP. And given that the Shogun Forrest beat was rusty and hurt and the fact that many people think Rampage won that fight it’s hard to be too high on those wins (although they are great wins, I’m speaking in a relative context)
I think GSP is the far superior fighter. I’d probably take Silva head to head but weight plays a big factor into that.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Forrest was bigger than Anderson and had been champ at that weight class less than a year ago
GSP was essentially fighting a smaller man he outweighted by 15 to 20 lbs who hadn’t won a match at that weight in 4 ot 5 years. Anderson’s is a much bigger win.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Penn was out of his weight class and hadn’t fought at 170 in over 2 years.
GSP wearing him out and then pounding him was impressive.
I’m not a Forrest fan, but Anderson toyed with him and then KO’ed him.
But equally as impressive, or maybe more so, was moving up and doing something Shogun (submitted), Rashad (easily lost first 2 rounds) and Rampage (decision) couldn’t do regardless if he was rusty or not.
GSP is clearly ahead of Anderson in the context set up by Jonathan.
And that’s really the issue. It’s Snowden’s article, and he built the framework. Some people seem to be objecting to the framework, which is fine; write your own article with a different framework. By Snowden’s criteria, it’s pretty clear.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Jul 13, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, this guy nailed it.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
One of the big things for me about GSP is that he has really become a template for what a great MMA fighter should be. Anderson Silva’s natural ability is uncanny but fitting into the same mold as GSP really is something that fighters seem to be training to get to now. GSP really embodies where the sport is heading in the future, he’s like a dictionary definition for MMA fighter.
Going through brutal wars ages a man quick
just ask Big Nog,
█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
i believe you forgot to mention
The Pre UFC era dominated by the world’s first death fighter, James Toney’s father
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
Ummm
I seem to remember at the time, “most” certainly did not favour nog in the rematch. I recall the mood on the UG being that, while not a foregone conclusion that fedor would walk through Nog again, he was definitely the favourite
by CstBoog on Jul 13, 2010 12:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I see (with my other senses besides sight) what you did there….
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
In the early days
whenever someone won a tournament, much less two, I always came away thinking “Man that guy is the best EVAR! Nobody will ever beat this guy!” I only say that because it’s hard for me to wrap my mind around an era, per se. Things were evolving and changing so fast, I could only ever pick a guy as the best from one moment to the next.
Honorable Mention: Harold Howard
Let’s not forget about the first man to ever beat Royce Gracie. He invented the idea of cross-training by incorporating Karate aspects back to Ju Jitsu.
by Bandaka on Jul 13, 2010 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
He doesn't deserve an honorable mention
during any of those time spans. All the honorables were better than him during that period. Which isn’t to say its amazing what he’s done considering his age, but he took too many losses and fought too infrequently to be in this list.
When would you fit Couture in? There isn’t a time frame where he wasn’t dropping fights right and left.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
so would Fedor if he had fought top competition for more than a few years
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
tired argument is exhausted
Even when I'm laying on my back I'm never backing down
by Austin Martin on Jul 13, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
This argument just tends to make people look bad. I wish you an some of the other good commenters would not make it.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree.
Though I agree with amadeus; I’m as tired of having to point it out as the other side is as tired of seeing it.
I seriously don’t think that it’s far off base to think Fedor would have lost if he had come to UFC right after Pride way before now. Personally, hearing people try to defend his less than stellar years hurts the years he was truly at the top of the heap in HW MMA. And he is still one of my favorite fighters.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
Personally, hearing people try to defend his less than stellar years hurts the years he was truly at the top of the heap in HW MMA
I don’t necessarily agree with the rest of your point, but I find this statement to be remarkably true. Not just with Fedor, but when we fail to acknowledge the fails of a sportsman I don’t think we really appreciate their greatness.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Though it bothers me that again, someone has to take the stance of "if you don’t agree with MY facts, then you don’t know anything about mma… i.e. “look bad”.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
At this point
..you make yourself look bad by junking up every conversation with the same tired talking points. The same fighter who Randy Couture beat to cement his legend, the one Nogueira beat to make him relevent again-suddenly loses all status when he departs the Octagon.
We get it. Everyone knows what your position is. Maybe step back a bit?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s harder when you say right in your coronation of him that he was fighting a “championship-level opponent” about once every 18 months or so. I don’t think GSP will hold the mantle for five years if he does a freak show fight in between every title defense, or fights the loser of a #1 contender’s match.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right. He’s fighting in a different era. Viva MMA!
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
My point has never fully relied on Tim Sylvia. I don’t think I’m the one that needs to take a step back man.
Although yes, beating a fighter when you take his championship belt might be in a different place than beating him after he is cut from the top org. and is on a losing streak and sinking fast.
Though in the end, me pointing out that Fedor’s era should not extend as long as you have it listed or saying that he might have lost sooner if he had come to the UFC really isn’t that huge of a stretch or that big a deal. And doesn’t take anything away from his actual era in Pride.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
It does get tiresome, and both sides seem to go from one ridiculous extreme to the other
One side thinks Fedor would lose to anyone who every fought in the UFC, in any weight class, and the other thinks Fedor could easily beat Lesnar and Carwin at the same time.
Reality is, the UFC’s HW division was mostly nothing to speak of prior to 2008 – there was no one to duck. Did Fedor fight his share of Leites’, Cote’s, Lutter’s and so forth? Of course. But who else was he going to fight 2005 – 2008 that were widely considered more worthy (Barnett fight was scheduled and fell through due to no fault of Fedor)?!?
The guys everyone looks at as cans now were, for the most part, looked at as legitimate challenges at the time of the fights. The HW division overall was even more shallow than it is now.
Its easy to look back now, but 2 years ago there was certainly no consensus than Lesnar, Carwin, Cain and JDS were going to top-5 guys.
Bottom line – Fedor is neither god nor can, but he evolved before any other HW and had the good fortune (or misfortune) to fight during an era when there were few well-rounded HWs…
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think everyone needs to chill the fuck out personally.
I didn’t say Fedor sucks. Why is it someone cannot make a simple and most probable statement without everyone jumping on sides and attacking.
I said Fedor would have lost sooner if he was fighting better competition…is there something not true about that? Maybe he would not have, but I don’t think it’s crazy to call it likely.
Did I come on here and say “what the hell is Fedor doing on this list? He sucks?” NO, I did not.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
And I wasn’t in any way implying you were. My only issue is that the really polarizing people (Fedor, Lesnar, Carwin) seem to bring out the greatest extremes between the two sides, so much so that the majority on both sides are far removed from the reality of the situation.
I have posted numerous times to refute those who diefy Fedor, and a few times to refute those slamming him.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, I was getting on your personally either.
But I think some, like Snowden; who are aware of my feelings on Fedor instantly take every criticism as the start of a new battle on how good Fedor is. (Which is odd for me anyhow, b/c I think he is a great fighter). Sometimes, the criticism is just about a specific thing and not about the entire battle of Fedor’s legacy.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
The portion of my post that was germaine to your comments about “fighting better competition” was that, prior to 2008, what competition were you referring to?
Its easy to look now at the UFC’s HW class and see that there is no way Fedor goes 6-0 against say Mir, Nelson, JDS, Cain, Carwin and Lesnar – its just not realistic to imagine otherwise.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, to get into my main argument about Fedor… with all the fight fixing and paying fighters bonuses to lose that Pride and RIngs did, I’m a little skeptical of anyone hanging their hat on a record from there. Though I do feel like their big name fights that he was involved in the last few years there would not have been influenced by that. So IMO, I feel like the Fedor era would be the few years at the end of Pride when he was the HW champ. From there I don’t consider Hong Man Choi, Brett Rogers or fighting barely once a year against UFC rejects a big deal for someone who is supposed to be the #1 HW and P4P fighter in the world. That guy should be fighting the best of the best every fight and a couple times a year. And if he doesn’t care enough about his status to sign with the promotion that has the best of the best fighters for him to fight; then we should not be worried about his status either.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
That is a very valid arguement
If nothing else, his era should have ended when he took less money to go to the minor leagues instead of coming to the UFC. I can understand why they (M-1) preferred that option, but still, his era effectively ended then, if it hadn’t when he went to Affliction.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
But really, all I was getting at was that Fedor’s era was smaller and was commenting on Snowden pointing out Couture’s record… I don’t feel like holding a protected record up against someone who fights all comers means a whole lot.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
Totally agree
I really consider BJ, who’s obsessed ex-gf routine with GSP kind of wore me out, to be a better example of how to challenge yourself fighting up and down in weight classes, MMA and K-1, from fighting Machida to Hughes to GSP to…
If BJ had GSP’s work ethic and desire to be the best, there would be no question IMO.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Just out of curiosity...
Whom do you think Fedor would have lost to in the UFC? The only candidates I can seriously consider are Brock, Cain, Werdum, and JDS, and he wouldn’t have fought any of those (save Brock) until this year. I highly doubt he would have lost to Nog, Monson, Sylvia, Arlovski, Big Country, Kongo, Mir, Duffee, or anyone else I can think of off the top of my head..
by PlantingaFan on Jul 13, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, you did throw out some names I would have said; but I don’t think Fedor is as good as some people think; so I think we would all see more “werdums” than expected and I’d add a few names to your list of guys there.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
The thing about Werdum is that he is truly top of the heap in BJJ. Also he actually beat Fedor. But I don’t think we’d see any more Werdums because no one else is at the top of the heap in a single skillset like he is and to think there’d be more Werdums is like thinking there’d be more Matt Serras. Conceivable, but I certainly wouldn’t expect it.
by PlantingaFan on Jul 13, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the people acting like Werdum is the only guy capable of beating Fedor are the same people that were fooling themselves before Fedor’s loss thinking nobody could beat him. So I don’t agree there, though I realize Werdum is at the top of the BJJ heap at HW.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
No we just think the argument that he hasn’t fought any top competition since Pride is just flat out wrong and mostly manufactured by Dana White to try and discredit him and M1. It gets extremely tiresome to see it repeated ad nauseum by the UFC zealots every time his name is mentioned.
Sylvia was a good win, Arlovski was a very good win. If you want to in hindsight discredit those and even Rogers as legit wins I could easily do the same with a lot of Anderson’s or pretty much anyones opponents.
I coulda sworn that all of those (sans Lutter) were ranked fighters
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Quite possibly, but that just further makes the point
Aside from the “freak show” fights, which most any fighter would do if the price were right, his opponents were ranked at the time as well.
Unfortunately, with their respective divisions being to shallow and weak overall at the time, just because Cote, Leites, Lutter or Maia for Anderson, and Sylvia, Arlovski, Rogers, etc for Fedor are highly ranked it doesn’t make them great fighters – just the bigger fish in a very small pond.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 6:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No they weren't.
Coleman (2x), Randleman, Fujita, etc.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
your criteria is confusing to say the least you put things like popularity into play which should take Fedor off the top spot it seems to me that after the Gonzaga fight Couture was the man and pretty much the face of MMA
None of the other factors come into play if you don’t have a valid case as the best fighter in the world.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
how do you make a valid case that you are the best fighter if you aren’t fighting the best in the world or even world class opponents
It would be hard. Luckily we haven’t ever gotten to that point with any of our Kingpins.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
are you trying to say Hong Man Choi and Mark Hunt aren’t the best fighters to face off against the #1 HW in the world?? that’s crazy talk man
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
Japan is Japan. You can love it for what it is, or you can be insufferable on the internet. You’ve made a choice…
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah...Japan is Japan
What a great fallback.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It is what it is. Dudes were going to fight pro wrestlers and kickboxers. It’s like Couture fighting James Toney, only if anyone actually cared about James Toney.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly
If Florida State starts playing Division i-AA schools after winning the National Championship, they aren’t going to be number 1 anymore.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Boy..you gave your own statement a bit of a nutshot
FSU will kick off this season with a game against…Samford of the FCS
Last year’s national champion Alabama? They open the season with a tough game against San Jose State (2-10 in 2009) and have a wicked tough game late in the season against Georgia State (1-AA).
Florida came back last year to really take the hard road against teams like Charleston Southern and taking on the always tough Sun Belt teams like Troy (and don’t bullshit me about how good Troy is) and FIU.
What matters isn’t always facing the best, it’s establishing that you are the best and then facing just enough tough competition to remain in that spot.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I meant that last statement in NCAA football. And I think it applied to Fedor also. He established he was the best and he just had to face guys who were relevant at the time like Sylvia (at that moment) and Arlovski (at that moment) and even Rogers.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how it applies and for the record I’m not talking about his fights with Elite XC or Strikeforce he spent two years fighting guys who you could definitely make an argument weren’t world class opponents the equivalent would be if the lakers started playing in the NBA-D league for two years would you still consider them the best basketball team in the world while they played there?
He never fought for EXC
and this “two years” thing is imaginary.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not really what semantics is...
Because it WASN’T actually 2 years, dude. Only in 07 did he have no ranked fights.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea I know
That’s not actually semantics either, but it doesn’t matter.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You don't see how it applies...
Yet when Mr. Black Lesnar used the NCAA analogy you gave it a “rec that?”
Also, there were no EXC fights.
I’ll say that yes, 06-07 wasn’t “great.” But Hunt was a legitimate fight at that point where he had beaten Silva and Cro Cop. There’s not a ton of defense for Lindland, HMC or the second Coleman fight. Although they were trying to ride Coleman’s big win over Shogun at the ironically titled “PRIDE 31: Unbreakable” into the rematch with Fedor. Maybe he should have fought the UFC champ in ’06 instead. Who was that? was that Tim Sylvia?
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay you can argue the Hunt thing but the fact is that there’s still a year where his ranking as #1 let alone the fighter to beat is in question even when he beat Sylvia it was still after he was coming off a loss in the UFC
Yeah, but I mean, let’s not pretend he got his ass kicked. He beat the shit out of Nogueira and got caught in a sub. Why people choose to act like that is the worst thing in the world I don’t know. When Cro Cop did the EXACT same thing why didn’t anyone go “well…we can’t take this guy seriously. He’s coming off a loss to nogueira where he beat the shit out of him before getting caught”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
oh I don’t think Noguera kicked his ass I think Sylvia takes a lot of shit that he really doesn’t deserve but he did get his ass kicked by Couture
Yeah, but so did Gonzaga yet beating him is sold as a huge win for Carwin and JDS.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah I see what you’re saying, man how much of an upset was that Couture fight though I mean after that fight I could not count Couture out of another fight
Yeah...
I’m not saying you can’t have your own opinion on Fedor. By all means, go nuts thinking he sucks or is great or is good but not great.
I just think certain things get said that are a little overplayed and ignore other realities in the situation.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
From January 1st 2005 - January 1st 2008, Fedor fought 2 ranked/relevant fighters
Hunt and CroCop. C’mon now.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Is he missing Mark Coleman?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
How so?
Who else? HIs opponents:
TK, Mirko, Zulu, Coleman, Hunt, Lindland, Choi.
3 years, 2 ranked opponents, who else was ranked? Don’t say Coleman.
September 2006 HW Rankings
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Mirko Filipovic
3. Josh Barnett
4. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira
5. Tim Sylvia
6. Andrei Arlovski
7. Aleksander Emelianenko
8. Mark Hunt
9. Fabricio Werdum
10. Jeff Monson
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 14, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
those are the only two options?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Super cool
Anyone can dispute a fighter on that list but on a whole the list is pretty close to perfect. It brought back memories.
Root for the home team jack ass
by KING FEDOR on Jul 13, 2010 1:35 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
the only part i really disagree with is picking gsp over anderson
im not sure we can define that yet
divisional dominance has to be what we use for ranking and anderson has beat every good fighter at middle weight , he has a higher finishing percentage than gsp and his title run has been better (he didnt lose his belt)
i think at some point one will lose and drop off and then we will know for sure
by Richard Doughty on Jul 13, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions
But would you say Anderson’s competition has been better than GSP’s? As ridiculously dominant as Silva has looked, to the point where he just gets bored and makes an ass of himself no less, I would argue that the talent at WW, at least at the top, has been better and more dynamic than at MW during their time at the top of the UFC.
by sBruce24 on Jul 13, 2010 2:15 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Franklin 2x
Marquadt
Griffen
I think stacks up very well against who GSP has fought.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Apparently, the UFC Undisputed facebook page linked this story.
My avatar has Bas Rutten and Terry Funk in it...therefore it's the manliest avatar on SB Nation.
Really enjoyed this
1. I like assessing fighters by era rather than getting into debates over who was the best ever. The former debate is usually more fruitful.
2. GSP, ftw.
Frank Shamrock
I have a hard time feeling he was “Kingpin” over Igor or Kerr. What’s the thinking for having Frank about either of those men?
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
Frank just fought better guys prior to and during his UFC title run. As much as some might want to dismiss Pancrase, it had a lot of the best fighters and grapplers during the early years. Igor is an all-time great, but I think Frank fought the better guys before Igor moved to Pride. Kerr never fought anybody during his time in the UFC even though the competition was there (Couture, Belfort, Coleman, Mo Smith) and wilted against decent competition once he left the tournament format for Pride, save for his win over Enson Inoue.
by sBruce24 on Jul 13, 2010 2:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
People also...
really tend to underrate how good the guys Frank was fighter were because he basically crushed their careers or retired them.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. Beating Zinoviev was a pretty big deal.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Beating Kevin Jackson was a pretty big deal...
Jackson was supposed to be the future.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not disagreeing with you guys about Franks quality
he was awesome. Bas owned him and Bas doesn’t make it to “Kingpin” (rightly so). I just think, at the time, Igor was the best/scariest/icon the sport had.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Frank quit in his prime
To me, all time great = Talent + Longevity
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Frank did quit in his prime. That’s why he wasn’t The Kingpin after UFC 22. See?
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Igor > Kerr, but Kerr did win two UFC tournaments. He was generally considered the scariest guy on earth, not named Igor. I also think he had a bit more “star power” then Igor, though it’s tough to say in those days when the sport wasn’t really popular at all. I might be giving a little to much credit based on his crazy sub. wrestling record.
Igor though, Igor I think would be Kingpin over Frank. Igor was f’ing terrifying and I think had that “mythical mystique” more so than anyone since Coleman lost it. Nobody wanted to fight him (much like prime Kerr) and he crushed them. I don’t remember people being afraid of Shamrock.
Shamrock means so much to the sport because of his crosstraining etc. but I don’t think he carried enough intangibles to be the kingpin when guys like Vovchanchyn existed.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice writeup
I have little to disagree with here.
Too bad I didn’t get into the sport till 3 years ago, seeing people like Coleman or Sakuraba in their prime must have really been amazing.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
It's never the same in retrospect
but it’s really worth checking out the old vids just to get a glimpse.
check this out, http://www.f4wonline.com/content/view/1056/124/
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Love that article
Watching Minowa and Sakuraba made first got me interested in catch wrestling which I train now along side my boxing.
Thanks for the link to the article!
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
You're welcome
It’s hard to get newer fans to really understand how impossible what Saku accomplished was. Glad you liked it!
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
But...but...
BROCKLESNARRRRRRRR
Por isso eu tomo ópio / é um remédio / sou um convalescente do momento / moro no rés-do-chão do pensamento / e ver passar a vida faz-me tédio
The Real Problem.
The real problem, I think, is in trying to crown somebody to be “the Kingpin” in the post-Fedor period. GSP, Silva, etc., have all been “right there” (or ahead of Fedor, depending on your point of view) for the last couple of years — but neither has even fought once since Fedor lost. So if Fedor’s era is really “over,” what good does it do to try to crown a successor before the candidates even fight anyone? What if Silva was crowned and loses to Sonnen? Would the Silva era then be considered 06/10 – 08/10, a time period in which he didn’t even fight? Same thing for GSP. What if he loses his next fight? His “era” would be a brief period during which he didn’t compete.
I think overall this is a pretty good list, and a good platform for some discussion of the historical greats. Maybe instead of “honorable mention” you should just say “also considered” to avoid the negative connotation of “honorable mention” — usually the top spot and the second (sometimes even the third spot) are all pretty close and subject debate, so no need for that negative connotation. I just think it would be more effective long-term to stop with Fedor and leave the post-Fedor “era” open until we see what is going to happen and how these guys are going to perform in the near future.
EDIT: In effect, declaring GSP or Silva as the “post-Fedor Kingpin” is basing who is the new “Kingpin” on what they’ve done during somebody else’s time at the top, not on what either has done in the post-Fedor era. That’s what I mean is the problem.
You are right. In five years, it will be a lot easier to look back and see.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Article
I really enjoyed this, but some of the commenters obviously didn’t understand what you were saying or your system. There are dates for the reigns of each fighter, such that one passes to the next. How would Randy Couture get in there? If people are complaining about “honorable mentions” for Matt Hughes or Anderson Silva, don’t they understand that you’re just saying that they were not or are not the kingpin at the time? Should Matt hughes be chosen over Noguiera or Wanderlei? What’s the problem?
I can see why people are arguing for Anderson Silva over GSP, but it is silly to complain about his “honorable mention” as though this were something different from just having picked GSP.
I really think Silva should be in between Fedor and GSP
You could argue that Fedor’s reign ended when Pride did. He was fighting questionable fighters from that point on. At the same time Anderson Silva was fresh off of his upset victory over Chris Leben and his utter destruction of Rich Franklin. GSP wasn’t eligable for the spot at the time, suffering a loss to Matt Serra.
This was argued above but
Who would Fedor have fought in the UFC that was any better then who was outside the UFC until Lesnar came along?
Root for the home team jack ass
by KING FEDOR on Jul 13, 2010 3:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A Couture fight would have been huge when he first came over; I know that’s what Randy was interested in. A Nog rematch would have been big too. By then you would have had guys like Mir back and Lesnar, Velasquez popping up depending on how often they got Fedor to fight.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
The same Frank Mir
who’s only ranked wins in the past six years are over Zombie Nog and Cup Cheick? Whatever.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Holding a win over the current world heavyweight champion doesn’t mean anything? I know you said “ranked” wins, and Brock wasn’t ranked at the time, but that must count for something.
http://www.instrength.com
Beating a guy who's 1-0 is not a quality win.
Brock grew into a monster, that’s true. But are you excited to watch Joaquim Ferreira because he beat Junior? How about Luciano Azevedo? He definitively beat Jose Aldo.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Brock was already a monster in that fight, despite having a lack of sub defense. You can find many exceptions to the “not many fights” rule you’re stamping on it. I’m not saying it’s worthy of him getting a spot on this list or anything, but it should definitely count for SOMETHING.
http://www.instrength.com
At the time, Brock was a total freakshow.
There’s a reason he was unranked, and it’s not pro wrestling hate. He had only beaten Min Soo Kim, putting him on par with fellow MMA freakshow Bob Sapp. Not to mention that Kim was on a 3 fight skid before the Lesnar fight.
Beating a 1-0 guy, even if he is an insanely good athlete, doesn’t mean much of anything. It’s not like we are giving Tim Sylvia credit for beating the worlds strongest man (a world class athlete in his own right) who was 2-0.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
You’re not looking at it with any perspective though, you’re just looking at it as it was the day it went down.
I’ll agree to disagree. I think it does mean something now. The day after the fight? No. Today? Yes.
http://www.instrength.com
Every fight Brock wins makes Mir’s win over him more impressive.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 13, 2010 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Not really...
Carwin crushes Mir.
Brock crushes Carwin.
A guy he’s 1-1 with (the win being controversial and the loss being brutal) just submitted a guy who nearly killed him with the [lack of] help of Big Dan. How does that make Mir look good?
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
He submitted he current heavyweight champion of the world. You can do MMAth to discredit Werdum’s victory, for example, as well. That doesn’t negate the validity of it.
And on top of that, it’s not the original point you were making. You were saying that subbing a 1-0 Brock meant nothing. MMAth didn’t come into play.
http://www.instrength.com
I was replying to subo's point directly, not expanding on mine.
Mir and Carwin both lost to Brock. But Mir also lost to Carwin. I fail to see how Mir getting beat by Carwin, who wasn’t good enough to beat Brock, makes Mir look good. And it’s not MMA math, and although using similar terms would probably illustrate my point better, it would get shredded for looking like MMA math.
And yeah, Mir did beat a world champ. But Ryo Chonan and Daiju Takase also submitted Anderson Silva… before it meant much of anything. Nick Diaz’s win over Gray Maynard seems totally forgotten, since it meant nothing at the time. Jeremy Horn KO’d Forrest Griffin, but we don’t give him credit for how much of a monster he became.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Well, NATE Diaz’s win over Gray did count for something, because they rematched them in a sanctioned UFC fight to see if he could do it again. The first one was considered an exhibition match.
And I’m not sure why you’re glossing over the fact that Carwin was inches from beating Brock himself, which sort of takes the shine off the Mir hate.
And we don’t give Jeremy Horn credit anymore? When did that happen?
http://www.instrength.com
Dammit. Nate Diaz. My mistake, and I apologize.
Although I’m sure one of the Diaz bros is on his way to slap my in my bitch mouth for that.
Dude, I was totally pulling for Carwin in that fight. Lost a bet on it. And I’d be inclined to take him in a rematch. But he definitively and without controversy lost that fight.
And I was saying we don’t give Jeremy Horn credit for beating Forrest saying “Holy shit, he knocked out a guy who turned out to be a champion!”
I’m just not a big fan of going back and giving guys credit for wins after the fact when they beat somebody else. 1-0 Brock vs. 5-1 Brock would be a total mismatch. They aren’t the same fighter. And I don’t think Mir should be given tons of credit because Brock is such a good learner.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
And kudos to you
for being a wonderful dance partner.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I didn’t say this was a list of guys that would beat him. But if Frank Mir (who was the interim champ at one time) was an interim champ or top contender, they would have made the fight.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
Yeah... and it would have been an awful fight.
Sylvia and Arlovski were both better fights at the time than Mir was. And the only thing Mir had going for his was beating a shell of a guy Fedor trounced twice. So yeah, they might have made the fight, and it would have been awful matchmaking.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I suppose. Though i think calling it worse match making than anything else Fedor has been in the last few years is a stretch. I think Mir would have had a shot; but I would expect Fedor to win. I’d rather see that fight than Hong Man Choi.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
The Hammer
Since you gave Fedor honorable mention before his reign, it seems like there’s good reason to give Mark Coleman honorable mention during the Sakuraba period.
Nah
Coleman had a one tournament Cinderella run that year which WAS a huge and seemingly impossible (Ending Igors 1billion win streak) accomplishment considering how far his star had fallen, but it was so short lived and I don’t think anyone believed he was the same monster he once had been.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but
I’m not saying he was just as big a monster as the first time around. He just made himself the #1 heavyweight again. Also, don’t forget, he buzzsawed Alan Goes, before going down to Nog.
by Philosophy Pro on Jul 13, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He for sure was the #1 HW
but by that time Saku was already the best.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I know you love Fedor but there is definitely a gap between when he started fighting irrelevant guys to the heavyweight division and his loss to Werdum when Anderson was crushing everyone that the Spider was the “kingpin” of the sport.
I also think Chuck should have a period in the middle of Fedor era until he got KO’d by Rampage – at which point the second Fedor kingpin era occurs.
Other than that I think you did an excellent job.
How did I end up on this bandwagon and why does everything say property of Chael Sonnen?
Snowden, playing to your strengths!
And I applaud you— I’m not here to say bad things about the more controversial ‘current events’ opinion pieces, but this is top notch: introspective editorial that regards the storied history of MMA as a whole. I don’t think fans of the sport are treated often to ‘sports writing’ that feels educational past recapping what happened this week.
This right here is your Koscheckian ace-in-the-hole. Sure you like to stand and trade with angry community members about the hot-button issues, but every once in a while don’t forget to play the “Jonathan Snowden, published MMA historian” card with one of these. Anyway, great work.
by LBo on Jul 13, 2010 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
And well put. Snowden, please keep the historical-perspective pieces rolling.
by Philosophy Pro on Jul 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand it isn’t all about wins and losses, but it has to factor in some. You can argue honorable mentions and so on, but you lost me at Mark Kerr.
During that time period
Kerr was unbeaten and seemed totally unbeatable.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
in what way?
having him an honorable mention or not having him as the top guy?
Because Kerr was a fucking monster before drugs crushed it all.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Forgive my ignorance, but who has he beaten? And I’m sorry, I may be an idealist, but I think drugs have to come into the equation. If you are considering things besides the won/loss record, imo, you also have to take the bad into consideration as well.
I may be alone here, but I don’t consider him a great of the sport, but rather a what might have been.
He won 2 UFC tournaments
Which is a huge accomplishment alone, he has an INCREDIBLE sub. grappling record. Seriously, it’s ridiculous. You might not remember some of the names that got him to 12-0 but at the time it was legit competition.
And beating Enson was a big deal.
He will still ALWAYS be a “what might have been”, because he was a freak athlete. Don’t let that fool you into thinking he wasn’t a killer regardless.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
He's not an "all time great"
but he is very much a guy who was a great in the period where he got mentioned. I mean, yeah, I wouldn’t include him in an “all time great heavyweight” context but I’d consider him in a 97-99 context
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
When Kerr went to PRIDE
a LOT of people thought he was the best in the world. Which, I think, in the context of this article makes him a perfect guy to be in the argument for “kingpin”
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep...
the loss to Fujita really deserves a lot more love in the “biggest MMA upset” conversation.
As for who he beat. Fabio Gurgel is a hell of a BJJ talent and the win against him to win his first tourney WVC 3 was solid. Hugo Duarte wasn’t a bad win. Dan Bobish. Just to name a few of his early wins. I mean they weren’t the top guys in the world but they were decent wins at the time.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You read my mind
the loss to Fujita really deserves a lot more love in the "biggest MMA upset" conversation
I was hunting around these posts for a good place to bring that up. Fujita had " no chance" in that fight. Igor/Kerr was supposed to be the finals, clearly. To settle who the best was.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Greg Stott had world class RIP. World Class.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. A Greg "Ranger" Stott reference.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Modern Era should start with end of Pride.
I agree with some of the above posters. In the case of Fedor’s era, I think it ends not with his loss but Pride’s demise. You can’t compare what he did over the last few years to GSP or Silva. Once there is a clear number one promotion in Zuffa, the landscape changes. Otherwise guys like Aoki, Kid Yamamoto and Urijah Faber would have to be in the mix as well just because their records were as good as anyone else’s at certain points.
by sBruce24 on Jul 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Goood read. Really enjoyed the reminder of great times and fights. An “MMA where are they now?” ever been done?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
Sherdog has done some. I think a lot of them were on one-hit wonders like everyone’s favorite, Harold Howard, and Mark Shultz.
by Philosophy Pro on Jul 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
We can do that here if there is an interest in it.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Community questions for any interviews?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
We could do that…sometimes I just run into guys, but any scheduled interview we can do that way. The Lauzon one for tomorrow is also looking very good.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Crocop for honourable mention?
If there was one PRIDE star that crossed over to the N.American scene, I would argue that it was CROCOP. And even though he lost to Randleman and Fedor, his manner of destroying fighters should count for something IMO.
True
When he won the open weight GP people thought Fedor was ducking him and he was the uncrowned PRIDE champion. He was always more popular than Fedor.
Interesting to think about.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
My only issue is Hughes. He fought everyone and won. He has victories over 3 current and future Hof. The Trigg II fight was the greatest comeback in MMA til recently. Otherwise this is great stuff.
Recd for giving Coleman his due, that man scared the hell out of me.
When?
Would you take the title away from Nog or Wanderlei in order to give it to Hughes?
by Philosophy Pro on Jul 13, 2010 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Great piece Snowden!
As much as I disagreed with some of the post 116 chatter, it was wildly entertaining to read and discuss.
This article was the same; interesting, thought provoking, and just a real fun read!
I think at times many people (myself included) are much quicker to just bag on an article and try to pick it apart because we disagree, than we are to praise an article as interesting as this one.
After all, that’s what we’re her for… news and discussion.
Very good piece, one of the countless reasons why BE is the shiiiiiz!
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 13, 2010 4:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Fedor lost the kingpin in October of 2007 to Anderson Silva
after Fedor signed to fight HMC and Anderson beat Rich for the 2nd time.
GSP gained it when he beat BJ Penn at UFC 94.
I would be accused of bias if I said who I think will take it from GSP (if it hasn’t already been taken) in the next few months.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 4:51 PM EDT reply actions
Actually, Fedor lost it to Chuck after Chuck beat Randy for the 1st time in April 2005
and lost it in May 2007 when he lost to Rampage. Anderson picked it up from there.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you lose it as long as you are active and winning.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Being "the guy" in MMA, I think you do.
If the shine starts to fade, you lose it. If your drawing power fades, you lose it.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
this is the flaw… you act as if it doesn’t matter who you fight; as long as the record has some W’s in it.
It matters more who you fight as much as whether you win or lose.
"Jeremy Shane.. Easily the best writer on BE with initials J.S.!" - mmarazorback
Everyone on the list was fighting relevant fighters throughout their reign. If it had gotten to the point that Fedor was only fighting HMC level guys, it could have come up for discussion. As it is, he lost it in the cage, which is only right. Crisis averted.
by Jonathan Snowden on Jul 13, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
No.
After August 2005, Fedor was not fighting “relevant fighters”. Chuck Liddell was fighting relevant fighters AND drawing a shitton of money AND becoming the face of MMA.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm
Does it concern you at all that this might be a very US-centric perspective and that there is a whole world out there that doesn’t necessarily care about spike TV? In 2005, the ufc was just starting to breath. Fedor was still the man. He still was headlining pride events and on a streak of domination.
by Philosophy Pro on Jul 13, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
For example
And I’m not saying I really know the answers here, but do you think that fans in, say, Germany, France, Australia, or Brazil thought more of Chuck Liddell or Fedor? How much did coaching on TUF 1 do for Liddell in those and other countries?
by Philosophy Pro on Jul 13, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
PRIDE was available on TV as well has having...uh, sinister elements involved
Was Fedor watched by more people? Yes. So was Nakamura. So was everyone in PRIDE. Fedor wasn’t a big draw in PRIDE. Wand, Saku, even Nog was a bigger attraction than Fedor due to their styles (which was more important to that audience than results per se). So while Fedor was “undefeated” and headlined because he was the HW champ, he was not the face of Oriental MMA.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
more available
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Sylvia, Arlovski and Rogers were all relevant fighters. All legitimate top 10 at the time of the fight.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jul 13, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Rogers may be the HW version of Zaromskis
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 13, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Those came too late and he had the mantle stolen by then.
He didn’t fight Sylvia until July 2008.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I totally agree with Snowden here
The best can’t be knocked of the pedestal unless they are defeated. Once Fedor established himself in that position he would have to lose, retire or fight complete cans for years.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe in the HW division
but to be the “Man”? That’s bass ackwards. You mean the so-called man can fight subpar fighters while someone else can fight the best time and time again and draw much more money and not “overtake them”?
(insert gif of Jeremy Piven)
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Because he was still fighting
and the “subpar” fighters thing is totally overblown. It would be once thing if he spent the rest of his career doing that, but he didn’t. He had a couple squash matches for his fans in Japan, which was cool, and got right back to fighting top 5 guys.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
It wasn't 2 years...
and it doesn’t matter if other guys were out there, he had a couple easier fights and then came right back against tough guys to prove he still deserved his spot.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
technically it was more then two years and not fighting world class opponents or relevant fights should definitely affect your ranking status
No, it wasn't
Hunt was ranked when he fought him. 07 he had no ranked fights. 08 he fought a ranked Sylvia.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
He was ranked because HW was a thin division at the time. Sounds silly now, but it was what it was.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess so but it still leaves a year where realistically he shouldn’t have been ranked number one let alone the fighter
Well think about it, bro
PRIDE had just been bought out. He had no place to really fight so he had to make due with what he was given. Had he come to the UFC the champion was Sylvia.
I think he showed people keeping him at #1 that odd year was correct considering he ROLLED Tim when he finally got a chance to take that fight.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
A couple?
He fought 2 ranked fighters (Hunt, CroCop) in 3 years. How is that a couple? Name another champ with that pisspoor a run at the top.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 13, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Sherk?
Florian & Franca
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 13, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
LOL, That was his reign.
Did he have the belt for a year? LOL.
Cause there's only one, and that's me
You understand? for all that fighting, you understand
That sucka think he good, that sucka think he can whoop me
And i know he can't whoop me, Ay boy, the n**** whole style is chump
by S.C. Michaelson on Jul 14, 2010 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Won the belt 10 Oct 2006 (Florian)
Defended it 7 July 2007 (Franca)
Stripped of it 9 Dec 2007
Challenged for belt and lost 24 May 2008 (Penn)
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jul 14, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
The Jon Jones Era
has already begun, but few realize it yet.
"Daydreams of a 'fair' world which would treat him according to his 'real worth' are the refuge of all those plagued by a lack of self-knowledge." -- Ludwig von Mises.
Perhaps
Personally, I view Jones like Mike Tyson when he began his run.
As you may recall, that started as a HW title unification series on HBO, but Tyson would not be denied and was like a wrecking ball with his unorthadox peek-a-boo style he used then.
by BigDNotDallas on Jul 13, 2010 6:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Whoever is Kingpin now....
…is only holding it another year MAX.
Two more fights (assuming wins over Cain and Dos Santos) and Brock becomes Kingpin and won’t be dethroned until he loses.
How is Shogun not in here?
His run between his losses to Babalu in 2003 and Forrest in 2007 was incredible (freak injury loss to Coleman notwithstanding).
Because
Wand and Fedor existed.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jul 13, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions

by 
















