Lack of New Talent in Japan Still Apparent Despite DREAM 15's Success
Japanese mixed martial arts may be on a decline in contemporary times, but the two-headed attack of World Victory Road's Sengoku Raiden Championships and FEG's DREAM series of events continues to provide the Asian market with an outlet for a sport that has grown exponentially in the West. While World Victory Road's product has concerns as to whether it will be able to continue competing with the more casual fan-friendly, star-packed promotion like DREAM, both casual viewers in Japan and hardcore fans in the United States can see some value in both promotion's cards over the past year.
One of the major criticisms that has come to the forefront of discussion about the decline in Japan's popularity has been the lack of rising talent in the Asian market. Most notably, Japan lacks an amateur sports structure like that of North America to feed their demands for talent, and there have only been a handful of amateur wrestlers, judo players, and Kyoshukin Karate converts to enter the sport with success. In the United States, amateur wrestling has produced huge numbers of successful fighters, but Japan has some other major roadblocks that really hinder the growth it can attain besides simply lacking a huge amateur structure to feed their ranks.
One of those problems has long been the obsession with popular figures in Japanese culture that simply don't have the skills or background to compete at a high-level immediately in the sport. Fighters like Norifumi "Kid" Yamamoto obviously had the wrestling background and brutal power to be highly successful, but those popular figures of Japanese mixed martial arts are now fading into the darkness without anyone to replace them. The Bobby Ologuns, Akebonos, and Bob Sapps of the past generation won't cut it now.
DREAM.15 featured one of the very few rising stars in Japan that seems to have a little buzz behind with mixed martial arts fans in "The Land of the Rising Sun". Katsunori Kikuno, the crescent-kicking Kyoshukin Karate convert, was defeated by Brazilian lightweight veteran Gesias "JZ" Cavalcante by a close split decision in one of the evening's headlining battles, but he managed to show a solid stand-up game throughout the first ten minutes of the bout, frustrating the once-considered top five lightweight in the world. As mentioned during HDNet's broadcast of the event, Kikuno has found some popularity from fans due to his background in a more traditional martial art like Kyoshukin Karate, which originated in Japan.
Shinya Aoki also comes from a somewhat traditional background in that he does incorporate a black belt in Judo with his very creative Brazilian jiu-jitsu grappling skills, but Aoki's popularity mostly stems from the fact that he can pull off incredible submissions in an awe-inspiring, edge-of-your-seat manner and he's a top-flight fighter with proven success. He's entertaining, yet good at the same time. Kikuno is still a work in progress as evident by his grappling prowess against both Cavalcante and Alvarez, but winning fights isn't necessarily my concern right now.
With the Japanese mixed martial arts scene struggling, it seems a bit dangerous for a promotion like DREAM to rely on an up-and-coming fighter like Katsunori Kikuno to draw fans, and it actually makes me believe more trouble is brewing down the road. For as great as it is to see Kikuno's Saichin Dachi stance move from zombie-like to a flurry of explosive punches, I feel like Kikuno's obvious lack of other skills may eventually bring him out of the very light "up-and-coming" group of fighters and into an "never going to be a top fighter" group, limiting his popularity and drawing power for a promotion like DREAM.
Obviously, DREAM shouldn't be relying on Kikuno as a drawing power as of yet, and they still have more than enough relationships with camps throughout the world to bring in top prospects. But the Japanese fans want a Japanese representative who can compete at the top of the sport, and right now -- that's Shinya Aoki. Aoki is only 27 years old, but he can't foot the pressure of being the sole man to assault the North American dominance of the sport in his weight class.
I think there is a concern among both promotions as to the lack of new representation in their country, and to be perfectly honest -- Kikuno seems like a fill-in fad for the time being until he develops a more well-rounded game in which he can actually compete with the top fighters. The real questions are whether there is any pressure in Japan from the networks to find new Japanese stars, and whether or not these mid-level talents can produce enough draw to get Japan through these hard times in the market and stop the networks from cutting mixed martial arts altogether until someone can convince them otherwise.
Don't get me wrong. I found DREAM.15 highly entertaining, but I'm not quite convinced that this level of an event can be maintained without some sort of infusion of talent from Japan. Kikuno and Aoki can't fight ten times a year, and this card seemed to be lined with the stars we're used to seeing from a top notch Japanese event. Will we see some sort of change in how fans perceive these events in Japan? Will talent be found? What about a merger? We can only hope.
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But seriously ...
… I wonder if beating Manhoef will give Mizuno any kind of lasting love from the Japanese fans. Melvin getting whooped by a Japanese guy has to be a positive thing for DREAM from a business perspective.
It isn’t that positive since he has to now fight Gegard in the final, and Gegard will trounce him.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
To be honest, he should have. Mizuno looked awful early, and he simply got lucky he didn’t take one right on the chin. Mizuno got clipped a few times, but not dead on his chin. Ahh well…
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn, you’re sore. I was telling everyone in The Channel That Shall Not Be Named that Mizuno was a lot tougher at 205 under Hume’s guidance. I figured if he could survive early, he could take over the fight eventually. And what actually turned it was a counter right hook from Mizuno that stunned Manhoef in a flurry. Good times.
I didn’t think he could survive early, but I knew he had the acumen on the ground to be a threat late. Once he outlasted Manhoef’s early rush, I knew Manhoef was fucked.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Every time Melvin loses
a part of me dies. :(
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
ZOMBIE!!!
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 11, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The dreaded Black Zombie!
“Brains! Gnome sayin?”
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
“I want dem brains, run dat shit cuz!”
"With great power comes great responsibility" -Spiderman's Uncle
“Yo word is bond, let me hold dem brains for a minute son.”
"With great power comes great responsibility" -Spiderman's Uncle
“You tryin to let me eat dem brains?”
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 12, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
In my mind, Melvin represents something awesome about MMA and kickboxing.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s his number of ko’s tattoo
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 11, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Does he really have one? That’s the most gangster tattoo of all time. Besides Cyborg’s tattoo of Tyson’s face. Which the only tattoo of another tattoo I’ve ever seen.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Tyson’s Che tattoo is pretty epic and it was pre cliChe era of today. Someone should post the pic I think it has a side for MMA and another for K1
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 11, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
That's clever.
cliChe, nice. At his heart, Tyson really is an angry intellectual anarchist with a soft and reflective side.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
angry intellectual anarchist with a soft and reflective side.
Actually, that’s me.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Detective Scrotes I thought I told you not to come around here
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 11, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
UFC needs to go to Japan and have a TUF style event. That should help open up the gates and the fans can see the guys on tv and fall in love with them then. Then the first UFC PPV in Japan could have Wand, Akiyama, possibly Cro Cop and Mark Hunt.
But DREAM and SENGOKU should try to hook up with these gyms in America and have their fighters train in America.
This my 4th account. Dont ban me bro!!!
Zuffa has much bigger problems in Japan than just marketing the fighters.
Booking venues and getting TV coverage is their biggest problem.
Collusion?
Would the existing Japanese MMA powers-that-be simply block UFC, or make it known their displeasure to networks thinking of showing it? My understanding was Japanese MMA organizations aren’t exactly in a position to demand anything from TV networks there.
Or is Dana White in danger of getting his kneecaps broken if he shows up in Japan?
"Overdrive the sound and make it sound pretty rude." - Jimmy Page
It’s a combination of not having a relationship with the Yakuza which controls the arenas and the networks being sour on MMA in general.
Not having a relationship with the Yakuza? They bought PRIDE from the Yakuza.
by smoogy2 on Jul 11, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think Zuffa wants a rematch with the Yakuza
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 11, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a more wide-spread problem than that.
The problems are multiple and exist both within and without the MMA community. Japanese MMA fans have thus far been largely uninterested in supporting non-Japanese promotions, and since the fall of Pride, tend to be openly hostile to the UFC in particular. Rightly or wrongly, the UFC has been painted as having engineered the death of Pride, which actually had much more to do with shady or corrupt business dealings; in a lovely twist of logic, the UFC also gets the corruption-by-association tag too. Then there’s the matter of the wider Japanese business and economic community tending to be very protectionist: they will work with foreign corporations, but having one show up on their doorstep and open up shop is a totally different issue. Many aspects of the business community which the UFC would need to provide infrastructure and support simply ignore or make life difficult for organizations like the UFC. Add in the way that the interest in Japan in MMA has seriously cooled, it’s a matter of disproportionate effort for some very questionable returns, especially for an organization that really doesn’t seem to understand the complex ins and outs of the Japanese business culture and climate.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Yep even on the best day with a company that is beyond reproach one does not just walk into Japan and set up shop. They are a very protectionist based economy and it’s hard for a foreign company to gain any traction. Of course the UFC carries a lot of baggage too which makes it even more difficult. For Zuffa to gain a foothold in Japan it’s going to take years of work behind the scenes(if not decades) and even then there is no guarantee of success.
Aoki is only 27 years old, but he can’t foot the pressure of being the sole man to assault the North American dominance of the sport in his weight class.
Despite the loss, I still think Kawajiri could be Japan’s best bet to make a little hay over in North America. Since he is not much of a draw in his homeland anyway, DREAM should start using him as their go-to guy whenever Strikeforce comes looking for a LW to put on one of their shows.
kawajiri cant win the big fight
and frankly if he was in the UFC i’d see him being sub .500 and getting cut
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Of course there is still hope, but he’s going to have to build himself back up not only as a fighter, but as a draw. The loss to Yoshida and his subsequent disappearance from the Japanese MMA scene have seriously deflated a lot of the excitement about his MMA career.
From what I hear, there’s also been a real turn on Ishii not as a figher, but as a person. He’s not reviled as a draw the way that Sexyama or Wandy were, where fans will shell out to see him lose. He’s almost shunned; people don’t want to see or hear from him at all because he’s considered a bit of a disgrace. Fair? Not sure, but he’s looking at a hell of a hard road back to relevance, and may have a better shot at reviving his career in America.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Japan can’t produce any top talent because their lack of solid training partners and their sub par gym facilities. Japanese fighters need to put their nationalism aside and train in the states; otherwise, they’ll continue to struggle in US promotions.
Lemonade was a popular drink, and it still is. I get more stunts and props than Bruce Willis- Guru
Or find a way to bring over some American training partners and adapt some up-to-date training methods to Japan.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Strangely enough Japan's problems with stagnation remind me of them at video games
And… well… much of modern Japanese culture. =/
Article here on the video game end of things.
As for reduced interest in MMA, there’s also less disposable income to support MMA (i.e. PPV buys or tickets), and Japan’s demographics ain’t helping…
yeah
that’s the big picture stuff people aren’t talking about. Japan is literally the oldest society in the history of the Earth right now. They’ve been economically stagnant for almost 20 years. It’s just not a vibrant society right now. If history is any indicator, it’s countries on the upswing like China and Brazil that will likely produce most of the dynamic talent, in every field.
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Asian trained fighters in general will never be considered top fighters because they will almost always be smaller than their weight cutting western counterparts. Dream would do well to implement a system which prohibits weight cutting.
The ring, weight cutting ban, 10 min first round rules, yellow card system will make asian mma so different it will be like rugby vs football and thus remove the notion that asian fighters are inferior as they are playing by a totally different set of rules.
I actually had a conversation about the same exact thing.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean everyone knows that most asian fighters fight near their natural weight class. How many times have you seen a japanese UFC fighter look like they are totally in the wrong weight class leading to devastating results. Akiyama, caol uno, yoshida, etc etc.(except maybe okami).
These fighters will never be world beaters in the UFC as where we’ve come to realize, size matters. Its almost like asians in the NBA, unless your a freakish yao ming, you wont be competitive in the nba. So give it up and embrace what japanese mma can offer thats different from the western ufc as much as possible.
Well, I’m with you except for the “give it up” part; many of those fighters COULD cut weight and fight less unballanced matches. But the non-weight-cutting attitude is a hold over from a decade ago, and it just puts them at a horrible disadvantage against fighters from gyms that are actively trying to improve their methods rather than just doing the same things that they have always done. It’s a question of dynamic innovation vs. formulaic repetition, and that can be changed with some will.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
Dream would do well to implement a system which prohibits weight cutting.
Or Asian athletes could learn to cut weight just like everyone else.
Asian wrestlers have no problem cutting weight for the Olympics. Guys like Kawajiri, Okami, and Dong Hyun Kim are gigantic for their weight classes. If they can cut weight, so can everyone else.
I don’t mind the rules/environment differences (though I do believe the cage is MUCH better suited to MMA). If the promoters feel that is the best way for them to go, by all means they should keep that stuff.
I’m less concerned about what the promoters do and more concerned with the athletes bringing themselves up to date.
Most orgs in Japan use 3 5 min rounds
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
The cage is already starting to be implemented in Japanese MMA
And put bluntly, the ring should be abolished in all of MMA. It’s not suitable for the sport.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former - Albert Einstein"
- Goonisis
Japan making a move to isolate themselves from what others are doing around the world and creating a different MMA structure in Japan doesn’t really help them all that much it just creates a more isolationist atmosphere that pushes foreign talent that comes there to fight out and makes Japanese fighters who go overseas even less prepared and looking even worse in those fights. Weight cutting is a real part of the sport that goes back to the amateur wrestling side of things, you can’t just turn that off now because some of your local fighters don’t want to do that. This is a global sport and their guys need to be able to compete on a global level.
they didn't really isolate themselves
the ring is a holdover from pro wrestling & boxing, so in a sense its more traditional than the unified rules cage. and in a way i still like to see ring fights, because it keeps the sport interesting.
the UFC would draw more Japanese fighters & fans if they added lower weight classes, which is puzzling since they bought the WEC…not sure why they keep holding onto the facade of WEC.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
I don’t think they are isolated at all now, and they shouldn’t move in that direction. They do use a ring and they have different rounds but for the most part the sport is still the same. Guys can and do make the switch between ring and cage and the difference in rounds isn’t an issue when guys go overseas to fight, nor is the difference in elbow and knee rules that big of a difference.
Now weight cutting is a big deal and even the Brazilian fighters have latched onto that quite well (some of those guys are absolutely huge in their divisions). Another huge difference is in training, it’s just obvious that a lot of Japanese fighters don’t cross train as much as fighters outside of Japan do, they just aren’t as well rounded and prepared for what is out in the sport currently. The move that would better the sport isn’t to shun the rest of the world and to keep doing what you are currently doing it would be to grow in the same direction.
As far as them still holding on to the WEC, yea that does seem sort of odd now that they have been able to get the UFC onto Versus for some events. I would bet it’s only a matter of time before the lower weight classes move to the UFC.
the WEC still exists cause of tv contracts
the ufc can only air so many UFC shows off of spike and spike only takes so many UFC shows
since theres not currently enough UFC events to properly add the fw and bw divisions they keep the WEC which is still a profitable organization to air events with those fighters
however i think they should implement the fw and bw fighters while dropping some lower tier fighters to the WEC to make it an effective minor league but i dont run the UFC so my opinion means jack shit
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Oh it’s definitely about tv contracts it’s just that now that the UFC has made it to Versus too the purpose the WEC was started for is rapidly fading. I’d like to see them keep the weight divided between two networks but change it all to UFC. Imagine a UFC on Versus that only showed the lighter weight class fighters and brought over the UFC lightweight class talent to that network. The talented smaller guys would still have a separate home to showcase on but they would get the UFC rub and be on UFC PPV’s too.
Versus would still get the same mix of exciting weight classes(WEC shows kick UFC shows ass in terms of pure exciting fights) and some better name talent and Spike TV would still be the main home for the UFC like it is now and be exclusive for the larger and more popular weight classes. It would be as simple as changing WEC to UFC II (I like UFC-light but it sort of sounds like a cheap beer, maybe UFC-electrify or UFC-excite or UFC-BJPenn) provided they could get Spike to allow it.
I hear ya, but
I’m not a businessman or UFC brass either, but why buy a regional promotion & not include it into the parent company? UFC bought WEC in 2006 and the contract with Versus started in 2007. You don’t see a Pride or IFL ‘minor league’ running under a Zuffa banner. Besides, they folded the heavier weight fighters into UFC, why not the light weights too?
It just doesn’t make sense when you don’t have all the weight classes 125-265 of unified rules and you are the premiere MMA organization.
Are you kidding me with the “not currently enough UFC events” line? Not enough on 20 cards a year with +/- 10 bouts? They could have a championship bout on every show (instead of PPV non-title cards, which is bogus IMO, show those on Spike or Versus) and have the prelims on TV.
Guess I’m getting off track, but if the UFC had 125-145 classes we would most likely see more top international talent in those divisions.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
The UFC isn’t the parent company Zuffa is. UFC, WEC and even Pride now are just brands under the Zuffa umbrella. Zuffa is the premiere MMA company in the world with their two brand name products.
correct about the Zuffa/UFC bit
thought it was a given by this time in the MMA world…apologies
but that still doesn’t explain why they can’t be merged to make a stronger brand. I know I’m barking up the wrong tree, but it is puzzling to see ZUFFA still continuing the charade. From what I understand, WEC on Versus was set up only to thwart IFL from a cable deal. Since they purchased WFA, WEC, Pride and (possibly) IFL, could they not have merged before the Versus contract was renegotiated?
I guess I just perceived the buy out of WEC and elimination of the 155+ classes as a sign that it was an impending merger and here we are almost 4 years later and the UFC still doesn’t have the lower weight classes…where there is awesome talent. It just sucks to see WEC fighters not get the rec, exposure & money that UFC fighters do, even though they are also part of ZUFFA, LLC. Only they know I guess.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
well fighting with completely different rules in a ring already kind of isolates them. The J-league of mma is almost a different sport to me anyways.
The rules aren’t completely different, heck they are 90% the same and while the ring is a difference it’s not that big of a difference. It’s not that hard for guys to cross over from Japan to the US in terms of rules or ring to cage but weight cutting and cross-training are two very big issues that stand out.
It’s not that different, it doesn’t use the ten point system but it does use three judges scoring the fight. Same basic format just with different criteria. Telling highway speed according to miles or kilometers is two very different measurements but in the end you are still driving a car. Fighters fight the same way using the same skill sets with the same exact goals in mind, the only differences are in a small handful of rules. The nature of the sport is exactly the same outside of Japan as it is inside of it, this is still the same MMA. This is more akin to Canadian vs US football as opposed to being a different sports.
The thing is… Japanese athletes are now starting to cut weight, and that’ll, at the very least, instill itself on the up-and-coming generation of fighters. Ishida should be a very, very tough fight at featherweight for anyone. He should have cut years ago.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed.
As more guys like Ishida and Omigawa turn their careers around by cutting weight, the more other Japanese fighters will realize that weight cutting is not a bad idea.
Imagine Shinya at FW or Akiyama at WW.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Shinya is huge for a LW
he does cut weight, he looked much taller and bigger than Melendez. If he trained in some striking (with the Diaz brothers?) he would terrorize LWs stateside
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
shinya's not huge for LW
hes like 5’9" but hes scrawny.
check out his weigh-in photo with kawajiri.
then take a look at lightweights in the UFC like gray maynard, gleison tibau, tyson griffin.
shinya’s by no means a huge LW
agree to disagree for LW
but he definitely wouldn’t make FW…and he’s 5-11
he couldn’t add muscle mass to his frame & make FW, and would really have to cut to make LW. Regardless his game & frame aren’t like Maynard, Tibau or Griffin- those guys are all compact wrestlers, he’s more like Nate Diaz using his length for subs…he just needs to learn to use it for striking, like Diaz.
Who's the only one here who knows illegal ninja moves from the government?
How do you propose a “ban” on weight-cutting? Surprise weigh-ins at random one month up to the fight? They won’t even do that for drugs right now. No going to the bathroom for 12 hours prior to weigh-ins? Outlaw plastic weight-loss gear? No jogging prior to weigh-ins? Implement a minimum amount of food that a fighter must ingest in the 36 hours preceding the weigh-in?
Japanese athletes have had pre-fight weigh-ins in Japan at least since the early 1950s when boxing started to become popular, and that’s just the earliest example I can think of. It’s not like it’s a new concept, they just never took it to extremes the way Americans have with wrestling. Americans actually only have made such a fine art of weight cutting because wrestling meets are a team affair, and you need exactly one guy at each weight class, forcing a lot of weight cutting to make the best use of available talent as a team.
You realistically cannot put a “ban” on weight cutting anymore than you could put a ban on pre-fight sweating. What you could do is have a second set of weigh-ins the following day where fighters can only way 9% above the originally agreed upon weight for the fight from the first weigh-in. So two LWs who were fighting at 70 kg can weigh 76.3 kgs max the next day (it wouldn’t matter if they actually weighed in a little below 70 kg or not). Why not same-day weigh-ins or a smaller gain allowed? Because I’d rather people continue the practice of weight-cutting then gaining it back than cutting weight and then fighting in a condition where they’re dehydrated and more susceptible to serious brain trauma from a knockout. This would, however, put a cap on the sort of truly ridiculous weight-cutting done by people like Thiago Alves who cut even more than that, without compromising their safety (if you gain back 9% of your bodyweight you are reasonably hydrated), and hopefully forcing them to fight in their natural weight class.
The UFC actually has the highest rated MMA show on Japanese TV this year
These ratings suggest the UFC could run a succesful show in Japan. Which could be done with the UFC’s large stable of former PRIDE stars and with the help of Yuke’s which owns NJPW and has relationships with many arena’s in Japan.
I couldn't disagree more with this statement
Most notably, Japan lacks an amateur sports structure like that of North America to feed their demands for talent
Shooto has an extensive amateur structure, focusing on numerous areas of the country and emphasizing appropriate experience and safety as competitors ascend the various amateur classes. Other organizations also cater to developing regional talent. The fact that the products of these organizations aren’t the best in the world right now can be attributed to any number of possible reasons, but the idea that it’s just for a lack of low-level MMA events is a little inaccurate.
Not what I was referring to, but okay. I was more in line with the collegiate wrestling programs versus any program that Japan has produced. Japan certainly has wrestling and Judo, but not at the level of wrestling in the States.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I should note that I can’t really disagree with the idea that Japan lacks a structure like that of North America.
I think that quality MMA talent doesn’t necessarily have to come from parallel sporting endeavors or even via the North American paradigm. I don’t think that leftover competitive edge from amateur wrestling experiences is what’s driving the new wave of prospects emerging from Brazil. (That being said, I wouldn’t imagine that Japan can emulate that particular set of circumstances either.)
Brazil’s amateur push into MMA seems to come from BJJ and their history of fight sports, for some reason that just doesn’t seem to occur in Japan. You just don’t get a lot of guys coming out of Judo or Karate into professional MMA in Japan, heck a number of their former big stars came out of a pro wrestling background as opposed to an amateur sport. It does seem that when a fighter comes out of Judo background he gets fan interest in Japan.
Exactly. Brazil has a solid feeder system from grappling.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 11, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
but Japan's feeder system is better
with Judo taught in the high schools, competitive Olympic boxing and wrestling programs, one of the world’s richest martial arts traditions and most importantly the deepest network of regional MMA promotions in the world. The various Shooto orgs, Pancrase, DEEP, ZST and Cageforce should have produced a bumper crop of talent over the last decade but they just seem to have stalled out over the past few years.
One thing that I obsess over is why is there so much parity in the smaller Japanese orgs? There are lots of talented fighters with 8-6-3 records so they never get really considered as prospects by the bigger orgs. Kikuno was a rare exception in that he rose thru DEEP without picking up a single loss. Not something you see guys doing in Shooto or Pancrase very often.
I think the overall lack of dynamism in their demographics and economy has more to do with it than anything to do with their training habits or feeder systems.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Japan’s feeder system should be better but it just isn’t. I’m sure there is a whole article that could be written on why that is but in the end the system just isn’t working like it should have. Japan should be chock full of top level MMA fighters and should of developed at least some younger talent that could catch the eyes of the casual fans by now but it just hasn’t.
In Brazil the system churns out prospect after prospect even thought the sport of MMA isn’t even that big there and in North America MMA has all but killed off the Olympic hopes in amateur wrestling due to it’s huge draw with those prospects and it has even started to pull athletes who didn’t cut it in the NFL but in Japan where there is actually a MMA feeder system in place to fill the ranks, not to mention how big Judo is, it’s a wash out. Canada produces more top prospects than Japan has been recently.
I would like DREAM
to be a feeder channel for the growth of Chinese MMA.
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
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