DREAM.15 Analysis and Afterthoughts: Shinya Aoki Confirms He's the Number One Lightweight in Japan
by Kid Nate on Jul 10, 2010 2:45 PM EDT
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DREAM.15 is in the books and despite not managing to get a fight for Alistair Overeem and barely getting a fight for Gegard Mousasi, FEG managed to put on one of their better cards of the year tonight.
Quick thoughts:
- Shinya Aoki has confirmed his status as the uncontested #1 lightweight in Japanese MMA by beating Tatsuya Kawajiri. If Aoki can somehow finagle a rematch against Strikeforce champ Gilbert Melendez in Japan in a ring, he might take it.
- Aoki is very similar to Shane Carwin. Both are supremely dangerous, if deeply limited fighters, and are threats to beat anyone in their division in the first round.
- Kawajiri is now firmly established as the guy who just can't win the big fight. Going back to his 2005 loss to Takanori Gomi, he's come up short every time he's faced elite competition, whether it's Gilbert Melendez, Eddie Alvarez or, now, Aoki.
- I'm glad Gesias "JZ" Calvalcante picked up a win before heading to Strikeforce. He struggled a bit more on the feet against Katsunori Kikuno than some expected, but thoroughly dominated on the ground. He'll be a worthy addition to Strikeforce's lightweight division.
- I'm sad Katsunori Kikuno came up short for the second time against top-tier competition. He acquitted himself very well on the feet against JZ, but didn't have the grappling to hang in the end.
- If Kawajiri's leg isn't seriously injured, I'd be interested in seeing him face off against Kikuno, but won't object if both men get easier competition in their next bout. Either man would be a great addition to Strikeforce's LW class as well.
- Gegard Mousasi vs Tatsuya Mizuno is an utterly non-compelling finale for the thoroughly botched light heavyweight tournament. There just isn't enough top-tier talent in that division that isn't with the UFC or too busy with Strikeforce to participate.
- Oh Melvin.
- What the heck was Jake O'Brien thinking coming in that much over weight? He's already had his run in the UFC so utterly blowing it with DREAM isn't smart thinking.
- Mitsuhiro Ishida vs Michihiro Omigawa could be a very compelling featherweight scrap, although either man would be a solid challenger for Bibiano Fernandes' title right away.
- Kazuhiro Nakamura showed that he remains a formidable gatekeeper. His Sengoku run showed he won't be a contender at middleweight, but there's plenty of fight left in the Judoka. I'd love to see him pay a visit to Strikeforce.
- Karl Amoussou didn't have an answer for a good Judoka. He needs to work on his wrestling, but he remains a middling prospect.
Luke Thomas keeps insisting that the Japanese MMA scene just isn't big enough to support two major promotions. I've been a long-time backer of Sengoku, but it's clear that they have failed in their quest to provide a more sporting alternative to FEG's DREAM.
UPDATE: And no, Aoki didn't announce a fight with Melendez, that was a mistranslation apparently.
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Thoughts on the Nakamura fight?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
Any Judo chop action from last night aside from Aoki?
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
not really
Lots of fighters looked good but nothing really jumped out at me.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I was half in half out after 1:00 and thought I might have missed something.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Nakamura
impressed me.
USMC vet. MMA nut.
Sea-Town stay down!
Rousimar Palhares is a dirty fighter.
Pain don't hurt...
You could do a Judo chop on improbable yellow cards and awkward reffing...
Manhoef’s head pinned underneath the rope was bizarre.
How about doing a judo chop on Jake O’Brien’s sweet single leg takedown of Mousasi?
1. Grab leg
2. Sit down on ankles
3. Wait for guillotine
4. PROFIT
by Steve4192 on Jul 10, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That was pretty weird. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. At times, he looked dead.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 10, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s called the Filho Defense.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jul 10, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
nice one
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
MMA in a ring
I guess MMA in a ring still has its supporters, but I just don’t understand it…..how is it OK for photographers, corner men?, etc to be pushing Melvin’s head, pulling on the corner pad, etc?? That is “sport”? Um no, it’s not. People in the ringside area should really keep their hands off of the athletes and the competition area.
I also remember watching Alvin Robinson and his opponent roll right out onto the floor below the bottom rope in some regional show a few years back. MMA in a cage is vastly superior for the reasons.
As far as the show was concerned, that was quite a performance by Mizuno (he absorbed some big shots in the first minute), and his post-fight emotion was very cool to see….nice touch to thank “all of America” (loose translation) for Matt Hume’s training as well…
Mousasi is my favorite fighter, but that sure wasn’t much of fight from O’Brien….was hoping for a good battle…
by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Jul 10, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I used to HATE NHB in the ring
back in the day, especially when PRIDE first started. But eventually after they put on so many great fights I really came to dig everything about it.
The cage is an artificial environment too, don’t forget that.
If I had to choose only one, I’d take the cage in a heartbeat, but I have come to appreciate MMA in the ring and wish we could have more of a mix.
In real combat, the environment is a key part of any battle. I think the changing settings of MMA fights adds to the simulation value.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Good point...
I prefer the cage, but I like to see fights in both. Its cool to see DREAM switch occasionally to a cage and watch how the fighters respond or change their game plans.
I think that could be one of the cooler features of EA’s MMA game… being able to fight in so many different environments.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 10, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
for example
watch B.J. Penn vs Machida and think about how badly he would beat Frankie Edgar’s ass in a ring where he could trap him in the corners.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Edgar’s quick and has good footwork. What makes you think he would get trapped in the corners, assuming he had time to adapt his game to the ring?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Jul 10, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Penn could walk him down
Machida is quick and has excellent foot work. Penn trapped him. Edgar’s quicker obviously, but I think Penn rapes him in a ring.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Frankie IS quick, but I think Penn could cut the ring off. Im a novice to most boxing technique but it seems like Penn could negate Edgar’s movement if he had 4 corners to back him into.
That being said, Im glad they’ll obviously be in a cage for the rematch. I want to see what Penn changes/improves on from the first fight.
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 10, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
How is Carwin deeply limited?
He is a huge threat standing and in the clinch, and has good wrestling. Let’s not forget his TDD looked great against Brock. All we saw from him is that he blew his load trying to finish Brock. The only thing that might be limited is his gas tank.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
by Noah'sArk on Jul 10, 2010 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
you nailed it
the gas tank.
Also no indication that he can fight off his back.
Right now I view Carwin as a near irresistible force in the first round, but not much else. I also think he’s too old to improve dramatically.
On the other hand, I give him excellent chances in a rematch with Lesnar.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Just Lesnar?
I think that’s really unfair to Lesnar. I’d give him a similar chance with just about anyone. Sprawl and brawl with that sort of power? I wouldn’t merely limit that to what happened last weekend.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
Junior could be a really bad fight for Carwin
and so could Overeem. His chin didn’t look great against Gonzaga and his boxing defense is nearly non-existent. If he puts his paws on you first, Carwin can win it in the first. It’s really about who gets the best of the first exchange.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I wouldn’t question Carwin’s chin because Napao broke his nose with a clean strike. Dos Santos can’t wrestle with him. Overeem might be able to, but notice I said “just about anyone”. I’d give him one of the better chances.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
I don't see any reason why
JDS or Overeem couldn’t replicate what Gonzaga did, and each of them has a better ability to avoid eating the short punch that ended it.
Not trying to discredit Carwin in any way, mind you. He’s a top 5 HW and dangerous to anybody. I just think that Junior or Overeem can put him in the same trouble Gonzaga did with their greater power, accuracy, defense (less so for Junior), and footwork.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
It seems to me that you’re almost arguing that Cigano has a better chance than Lesnar. I don’t agree with that, much as I love Cigano. I think the size/wrestling could be an issue for him.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
I think Junior has a very different chance than Lesnar does, not better.
There are other weaknesses in Carwin’s game that he could take advantage of much more effectively. Carwin could come out and dirty box, but he’s only done that once in the UFC and it was against a plodding, too-cool-to-care Mir. It would be a very tough fight for both of them.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
JDS leaves himself to get hit a lot in his fights as well which could be big trouble for him against Carwin. Also, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Carwin do to JDS what he did to Mir. Carwin felt Mir had the technical advantage on the feet so he pressed him against the fence to avoid that. He might do the same to JDS.
Anyhow, I don’t give JDS a chance to saty off his back against Cain, Brock, or Carwin
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
Carwin gained lots of experience from that fight and it may help him greatly in the future. Experience is a bitch though you only get it after you really really needed it.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
oh sure
Carwin is a legitimate threat to beat anyone on earth — in the first round.
I assumed that you’d get that he’d have to win some come back fights to get a second shot at Lesnar.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Oh, I’m not arguing his road back to a title fight, but I do have a feeling that it won’t be too arduous (and neither will Mir’s). I don’t think they’ll fight one another again or any combination of Dos Santos/Velasquez, unless Lesnar takes a lot of time between fights. I was thinking of drawing out a potential timeline, in fact..
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
We have no idea how Carwin is off of his back becasue he was completely wiped by the second round and never attemplted to do anything.. Also, I’d argue that anyone could wear themselves out completely doing what Carwin did in the first round to Lesnar, no matter what weight. You hear Joe Rogan say it all the time, along with the trainers, and it’s not to blow yourself out throwing heavy punches going for the kill.
Carwin can adjust the things he did wrong in the Lesnar fight and mainly do so by excercising patience in a moment like that. Changing thing up like his diet and othe tweaks will help too.
But to say he is deeply limited like Aoki, who is one dimensional as they come, is just silly. Carwin has a much better all around skill set that can win him fights.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
my main point is that both guys
are a threat to beat anyone in the first round.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
But I see the mistakes Carwin made as something he can fix and that was moment he can learn from and be better for it.
Unforunately, I think we won’t have a chance to see if he does unless he rematches with Lesnar. I just don’t think anyone else can survive against him in the first round because of his power.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
time will tell
but until I see Carwin go into the deep rounds and hold his own on the ground, I’m sticking with my assessment.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I would have to agree with that assessment as well...
We can only objectively judge based on his in-ring performance, and what has been shown is that if one can survive the initial onslaught, they can take advantage of Carwin and finish him.
I find the critique of carwin a bit silly
He’s only had one fight that went beyond the first and in that he was punching almost constantly. Now the problem with carwin is mainly a mental thing. He just need to see fights as longer than five minutes. I doubt his body is incapable of three to five rounds.
by Kim Hvid Johnsen on Jul 10, 2010 4:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I disagree with this.
Also, I’d argue that anyone could wear themselves out completely doing what Carwin did in the first round to Lesnar, no matter what weight.
It’s about knowing your body type and using it to your advantage. Clay Guida, Urijah Faber, Nick Diaz… they don’t need to stop and don’t because that’s what their bodies are built for.
Carwin is more like Alistair, who has struggled with his gas tank frequently. What fixed that? Partially not cutting weight, but really Alistair changed how he fights. He’s very careful picking his shots and only throws when he knows he wants to. Jon Jones currently has the same issue. You can’t just argue that anybody would gas in that situation without mentioning the difference in body types and the necessity to fight a different game plan because of it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I absolutely agree Carwin’s body type made it more difficult for him and wore him down moreso than it would say someone like Guida. But at the same time I think even a 155 pound guy would be pretty tired out if they stayed that busy and threw that many heavy shots for the time period Carwin did(hence the 10-8 rd), but probably not to quite the extent Carwin did.
Carwin’s biggest mistake is he didn’t use patience in picking his shots and tried to stay busy thinking the fight would be stopped. It didn’t help that he said he wasn’t really controlling his breathing during that flurry.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I love that you compared Aoki and Carwin, perhaps the MOST dissimilar fighters around
and better yet, the comparison worked! They are kinda similar! (well, for polar freaking opposites)
I’d say a limited gas tank is a very deep limitation… IMO now that we know this, wrestlers like Cain/Brock need to keep hammering the takedown in order to gas him out, Brock only tried the 1 td in the 1st, if he kept doing it I’m sure carwin wouldn’t have been as much of a threat on the feet.
by kanodogg on Jul 10, 2010 3:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I’m also of the opinion that Lesnar wouldn’t be as gun-shy in a rematch after knowing that he could take Carwin’s best and survive. At times he seemed less hurt by the striking and more trying to avoid being hurt.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
I thought I saw him smile while he was on his back
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Would Gilbert melendez take a shot at Aoki’s Dream title (in a ring & in japan) over “fantasy” match against Eddie Alvarez?
by intro820 on Jul 10, 2010 2:59 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
who knows
guess the money would make the difference. I would think that Alvarez would be a tough fight for him, but so would an Aoki rematch in Japan.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Tough in DREAM with Aoki because of bias referees? Did you notice every time in the Melendez/aoki fight was stood up Aoki turned his back like he didn’t know there isn’t a five second pause like in Japan.
by intro820 on Jul 10, 2010 3:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
different rule set
and more than that the ring vs the cage.
Aoki is a master at trapping guys in the corners and forcing a grappling exchange.
He also can’t be pinned up against the cage an immobilized like he was against Gilbert.
And yes, the crab walk is allowed. But it ought to be allowed in the States. There’s nothing in the unified rules that says you can’t crab walk.
And then there’s the grappling pants…
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
the pants. Haha. Longtime reader of the site. Just started posting. Kid Nate. Thanks for the input.
by intro820 on Jul 10, 2010 6:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Aoki is very similar to Shane Carwin. Both are supremely dangerous, if deeply limited fighters, and are threats to beat anyone in their division in the first round.
Are you seriously comparing Aoki to Carwin? They are radically different fighters; Aoki is about as one-dimensional as it gets whereas Carwin is actually a mixed martial artist. Excellent wrestling (clinch, TDD), boxing, and power.
Kawajiri is now firmly established as the guy who just can’t win the big fight. Going back to his 2005 loss to Takanori Gomi, he’s come up short every time he’s faced elite competition, whether it’s Gilbert Melendez, Eddie Alvarez or, now, Aoki.
I disagree with this completely. He may have lost to those fighters but you have to dig a little bit deeper. He was beating Alvarez before he decided to stand and trade and most people argue that Kawajiri won that fight against Melendez.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
well if I'd said "Kawajiri gets blown out anytime he gets near top flight competition"
you’d have a point. Come back at me when he actually wins a big fight.
As for Aoki and Carwin, I don’t think you disproved my point either. Both men are supremely dangerous in the first round. Both men have big limitations.
For Carwin it’s the gas tank, for Aoki it’s the limited take down abilities.
But Aoki has shown he can outstrike a BJJ guy like Shaolin and he has a wide variety of ways of getting the fight to the floor. They don’t work so well against a top notch wrestler like Melendez, but that doesn’t mean he has no take down game.
Aoki has spent some significant time in Thailand working on his Muay Thai. He’s not trying to be one-dimensional.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Gotta agree with Nate here...
Partly cuz I got all the arguing out of my system last week with Snowden…
And partly cuz Nate is spot-on.
I think Aoki and Carwin is a great comparison… There’s not a HW alive that Carwin doesn’t have the ability to finish in the first round, if not the first 2 minutes. And Aoki is a threat to do exactly what he did last night to all but a couple of LW’s in the world. They’ve both got big gaps in their games but both are good enough to overcome them almost every time out, by using the things that they are so great at (Aoki putting your joints in a vice-lock, and Carwin beating the shit out of people.)
As for Kawajiri, the proof is in the pudding… Every time he gets a chance to beat a big name and elevate his stock into the elite LW’s in the world, he comes up short… It doesn’t matter if its just a tiny bit short, he’s still not getting it done in his biggest fights. But I like The Crusher a lot, really fun to watch (usually.)
A true MMA fan from the great state of Arkansas.
by MMArazorback on Jul 10, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I've spoken to a pretty decent name on the roster of Sengoku
who gave up on them completely near the beginning of the year. Knew he wasn’t getting fights and that it wasn’t gonna happen. He’s shopping around some local promotions now.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Yerp, a lot of fighters and managers (Shu Hirata, in particular) decided to head elsewhere when Kokuho was ousted and Booker K installed as matchmaker.
by Chris Nelson on Jul 10, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
All the featherweights… which should leave so I can see them pound out some better competition.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jul 10, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
featherweight champ Marlon sandro. Jose Aldo’s training partner.
by intro820 on Jul 10, 2010 3:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ishii, the Pancrase contingent (Sandro, Blanco, etc.), a bunch of Brazilians… ummm… Sanae Kikuta?
by Chris Nelson on Jul 10, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I wanna see Marlon Sandro in DREAM
USMC vet. MMA nut.
Sea-Town stay down!
Rousimar Palhares is a dirty fighter.
Pain don't hurt...
The only problem with sending him to the WEC is that he won’t fight the champ.
I’d like to see him do a victory lap in Japan with DREAM first.
Aoki is now 3-1 against the sort of top-position-minded heavy punchers that everyone thinks should beat him. Will people learn not to pick against him so confidently? No.
I think the ring is the secret sauce
Aoki has to rebuild his game to compete in the cage.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
against Kawajiri?
No.
And he very nearly tapped Melendez in the first round of their fight.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Excellent comparison to Carwin.
I thought Kawajiri would be able to stay upright and win the fight. As soon as Aoki grabbed the leg, you could see he had no intention of giving it back in working order. When Kawajiri started kicking him and he grabbed the second ankle, it was just a matter of time. The way Aoki wrapped his whole body around his left leg would get most LW’s to the ground. So damn impressive. I haven’t seen many grapplers with his ability and thankfully, his mean streak.
Is Aoki wearing short just to prove he doesn’t need pants?
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 10, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
that's my assumption
although it drives me crazy that grappling pants aren’t allowed in the states. total bullshit.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Makes no sense.
As if people don’t wear pants. Where did they get that from? I understand having to be shirtless, but pant-less? Maybe its under the assumption that pants worn by grapplers would be a gi.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 10, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think its hilarious to think at such high level MMA wearing pants can make all the difference in the world. I cant wait to hear someone in a bar say"your lucky im wearing shorts, or else id beat your ass!"
by pandaboy99 on Jul 10, 2010 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I think it's just the opposite
With two A-level grapplers, the margins for error are that much smaller, and even the smallest advantage can spell the difference. Do you think BJ wishes he could’ve worn pants for the GSP fight?
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
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by Derek Suboticki on Jul 10, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. At the highest levels a small edge makes all the difference.
But if everyone was free to wear pants it would matter. I just don’t understand why they aren’t allowed. There’s no real reason to ban tights. How many other contact sports only allow shorts and no other clothing or footwear?
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 10, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s what I don’t get: pants are legal in ADCC. That’s where the highest-level grapplers meet, and so presumably where the margins of error are smallest, submission-wise. You think everybody would wear the pants if they offered such a great advantage. But they don’t. Why is that?
Not all guards
need or want the pants….not all guards are the same.
USMC vet. MMA nut.
Sea-Town stay down!
Rousimar Palhares is a dirty fighter.
Pain don't hurt...
This is more or less what I’m driving at. It’s not like wearing pants gives you +5 grappling points. They’re probably good for some things and bad for others, just like any other legwear you can name.
Some styles of guard
do get added help from pants. I wish pants were allowed in the US……Gi’s too.
USMC vet. MMA nut.
Sea-Town stay down!
Rousimar Palhares is a dirty fighter.
Pain don't hurt...
it was something that wasn't even thought of when the unified rules were written
so it’s an inadvertant ban.
and grappling pants don’t retard the action, cause unnecessary injuries or give anyone an unfair advantage.
MMA gloves fuck things up for BJJ guys an enormous amount. Grappling pants hardly disadvantage anyone and have the outcome of increasing submissions, which is good.
If they have to wear gloves to give strikers an edge and disadvantage grapplers, let the grapplers have their pants.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You’re stating diametrically opposed arguments.
1. Grappling pants do not (hardly) give an advantage.
2. Gloves give an advantage to strikers, so let the grapplers get their advantage from pants.
If the pants don’t give an advantage to a fighter, I don’t see the point in allowing them.
I hope this gets greened by our homophobic contingent, but if it wasn’t for “public decency” legislation, I’d just have these guys go at it naked.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Jul 10, 2010 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
the grappling pants give an advantage and a disadvantage
they make it easier to do some rubber guard stuff and get leg locks but also make it easier to get caught in a leg lock.
but what i’m missing is the compelling argument for banning them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You’re not really providing me with a compelling argument for why they should be allowed other than it gives an advantage (or not?) to a very small niche of fighters.
It’s not like arguing for knees to the head on the ground where one could make the very obvious point could be made that the current rule, as written, allows guys to purposely take a knee and put themselves in worse position in order to take advantage of a loophole.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Jul 10, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Gotta go with Fagan on this one.
They clearly give an advantage to the grappler. And if you’re gonna argue that they’ll increase the chances for a sub, then you’re on a slippery slope of changing an bending rules to modify the natural flow of a fight (ie time-regulated stand-ups, etc.)
by Applejack McNeil on Jul 10, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
but why should they be banned?
if we were starting from scratch they wouldn’t be banned. the unified rules basically banned any clothing that wouldn’t be allowed in a boxing ring. for no reason other than that’s how it was done in boxing.
I’m fine with gi’s being banned, they’re ungainly and fighters get tangled up in them (see Hackney vs Royce, UFC 4), but I have yet to hear a single reason why grappling pants should be banned.
just like the crab walk — why does Yamasaki think it’s illegal? unlike butt flopping, it’s a perfectly valid way of advancing the action in a fight. no move that advances the action should be banned unless it’s unreasonably dangerous.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I remember disagreeing with you about the butt scoot thing in the Melendez fight, but I’d like to go back and rewatch it to see how quick Yamasaki made them stand.
In the meantime, if Aoki dropped to butt scoot and Melendez just kept his distance, would you argue that the referee should just allow that to continue uninterrupted?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
not butt scooting, crab walking
the thing with aoki’s crab walking is he will walk his opponents down and leap into all sorts of crazy submissions and take downs. melendez won’t be able to keep his distance without running — in which case he’s pulling a kalib starnes and should be docked points.
Melendez could chose to hit and run, but with no kicks to a downed opponent he’d basically have to dive into the guard with punches, which = action in an aoki fight.
butt scooting is when you move back, maybe throwing up defensive kicks. crab walking is when you’re down but advancing on your opponent. and aoki can do it fast.
i’m against any rule that prevents a fighter from executing a cool and effective techinique. the only exception is head spikes, etc that are too dangerous.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Ick. “…one could make the very obvious point that…”
Losing train of thought mid-sentence FTL.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
why should they be banned?
that’s the question.
you haven’t given a single reason why the ban is justified. not one.
the pants (may) slightly increase the number and variety of submissions we see pulled off. In real life, with pants and boots, leg locks are far more effective than they are in mma.
in my naive mind the sport is about simulating unarmed combat as realistically as possible.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
In real life, eye pokes and groin shots are extremely effective. This isn’t real life. It’s MMA, a sport.
I haven’t made it explicit, but my ideal MMA dress code wouldn’t allow for any variation among fighters. Make ’em fight nude. In light of that, old school pro wrestling or Team Jackson bike shorts.
The current rules are pretty close. Board and bike shorts are pretty interchangeable.
If we add grappling pants, why don’t we allow gis? Or singlets? Or shoes? Or boots? Whatever line we draw is going to be arbitrary and there’s nothing wrong with the current rules.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
by Mike Fagan on Jul 10, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
there are reasons to disallow every other garment you mention
1) gis — too easy to clinch up and stall and also gi tops get tangled and created ridiculous ugly messes.
2) singlets — too easy to get choked with singlets — no one would chose to wear singlets. they have disadvantages in mma and no advantages.
3) shoes — too dangerous to allow kicking with shoes
4) boots — see #3
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I have no problem with the pants, but the ban doesn’t bother me that much. George Sotoropolis has already shown you can cobble together a pretty close facsimile thereof and still remain within the rules. Does it really matter if you gain the advantage through a pair of spandex pants as opposed to a pair of compression shorts and two sets of knee and ankle sleeves?
But if this is all about simulating a real life fight, I’m not sure why any of the arguments holds water?
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
again simulating within certain rules
and we’ve agreed that clothes that encumber or entangle or that can be used as a weapon are not allowed.
But you have yet to give ONE SINGLE REASON they should be banned.
do they give an unfair advantage? NO
do they slow or distort the action? NO
do they endanger either fighter? NO
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not sure if anyone’s paying attention, but…
I have given a reason. If we set up MMA rules tomorrow, I would push for the rules in which the garb would have the least influence on the fight. No gis, no shoes, no pants. I would prefer that fighters be limited to one of the following tiny pro wrestling trunks, bike shorts, or board shorts. The equipment, in my opinion, should be standardized for everybody.
I’m comfortable in the current world. Board shorts and bike pants pretty much just cover dudes’ junks and give them ad space. Allowing grappling pants would change the actual fighting. So, keep it out. Or it wouldn’t change it, and there’s no point in allowing it.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
I’m in the other camp. Allow Gi, allow pants, shirts, ect,
Street fights happen fully clothed.
"what the f**k is the internet?"
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
sigh
it used to be, I miss those days. :(
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
"what the f**k is the internet?"
Pain don't hurt...
You lost me at "Kawajiri can't win the big fight".
He should have had the W over Gil and that fight with Eddie Alvarez could have gone either way, neither of them were embarrassing losses where he was exposed or something.
not winning the big fight
means not winning the big fight. I didn’t say he gets blown out in the big fight, I said he doesn’t win the big fight.
I think Melendez won that fight, so did the judges. Kawajiri fought great, but he didn’t do quite enough obviously.
And bringing up the Alvarez fight as an example? He got KTFO’d. How is that winning?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jul 10, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Possible fights for Kawajiri going forward:
—Kikuno (as noted)
—Joachim Hansen (the featherweight sojourn hasn’t gone well for him, and these two can pick up where they left off back in 2006)
—Rematch w/ Eddie Alvarez (maybe at a catchweight if Bellator demands to do it on their turf)
—K.J. Noons
—Josh Thomson
—Heavily anticipated rematch with Melchor Manibusan
So now beating Kawajiri = beating Melendez...
Well, that sure is an opinion, I guess. I, myself think that it is a flat out terrible comparism. Kawajiri hasn’t come close to facing the competition that Melendez has over the last couple of years. Just because Kawa offers a boxing/wrestling base, it is plain old silly to compare them. I am guessing that this was posted to get some cheap hits and I took the bait.
by bloodied_but_unbowed on Jul 10, 2010 4:01 PM EDT reply actions
If Aoki can somehow finagle a rematch against Strikeforce champ Gilbert Melendez in Japan in a ring, he might take it.
This is comparing Melendez to Kawajiri, or definitively saying Aoki would win the fight? Sometimes I’m not really sure what people are reading..
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
?
Kawajiri gave Melendez everything he could handle when they fought. They’re very similar stylistically. And Aoki very nearly tapped out Gilbert in their fight.
If Tatsuya had escaped this initial blitz, he very well may have whipped Aoki soundly.
But let’s not pretend that the cage and Yamasaki didn’t help Gilbert too.
But that’s not to denigrate Melendez’ performance. He’s a supremely talented fighter and I was even more impressed by his revenge wins over Thomson and Ishida. Everyone just shit all over Aoki for losing to Melendez, but no one gave Gilbert the credit he deserved for making Aoki look helpless.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jul 10, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
(chanting)
RULE NUM-BER FOUR! RULE NUM-BER FOUR!
by Chris Nelson on Jul 10, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
too late
the guy is on his fifth banned account.
don’t even get to invoke rule #4
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
FIVE?
That’s pretty intense.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
I was lucky to get this one back. Let’s forget that second one ever happened.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 11, 2010 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was a pretty entertaining event.
It’s amazing though, how much a fight and our perceptions of a fighter can hinge on one thing though. As Nate mentioned, if Kawajiri had survived the initial submission, he might have Melendez’d Aoki and we’d all be talking about the downfall of Shinya Aoki.
Same way had Aoki secured that triangle in the first round against Melendez), we’d have been talking about Aoki as the no. 1 in the world.
That’s what makes a rematch with Melendez interesting. Either one can make the other look really bad.
Gegard Mousasi vs Tatsuya Mizuno is an utterly non-compelling finale for the thoroughly botched light heavyweight tournament. There just isn’t enough top-tier talent in that division that isn’t with the UFC or too busy with Strikeforce to participate.
I think having a Japanese fighter, on a Rocky-esque comeback might be more compelling to the Japanese fans than Mousasi / Manhoef II.
true but mizuno
is the furthest thing from a star. can see your point if he beats Mousasi though.
but the tourny was botched as soon as it was a fourman tourny featuring a middleweight.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If Mizuno wins it will be a big deal and Mizuno being in the final
after besting the popular and scary Melvin might sell a few tickets.
American audiences should be secondary.
that's true
but getting to the finals of the thinnest GP in history isn’t much to get excited about.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Agree on Rocky-esque
Many other fighters would have had their lights turned out pretty early by sone of Melvin’s bombs…..love that post-fight emotion as well…Kid Nate is being a real black cloud on Mizuno…..we all know Melvin made some big mistakes, but give some credit where it is due….
by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Jul 10, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to diminish the guy's performance
but c’mon, compared to the LW GP they put on a couple of years back this is just the palest imitation.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Aoki almost submitted Melendez.
Carwin almost TKO’ed Brock.
Chuck almost got a doctor’s stoppage against Franklin.
Gore and Kerry almost beat Bush.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 10, 2010 4:35 PM EDT reply actions
This was almost clever.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
Much like Aoki’s failed submission attempt in the first round of a 25 minute drubbing.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 10, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Watching Dream just reminds me how utterly significant the outcome of the fight can be due to 10 min first round and ring.
If anyone is familiar to tennis its akin to the clay court and Nadal vs Federer.
that's one of the reasons I hope the ring doesn't die out
I like the idea of the MMA circuit having different fighting surfaces and rules modifications. lets more types of fighters shine. I’d like to see some big time mma fought on wrestling or judo style mats too.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
That show showed as many reasons to love the ring as it showed to hate the ring
Nothing bad to say about 10 minute first rounds though.
I don’t know I am really undecided about the ten minute rounds. The first two fights could have been totally different if they had three five minute rounds.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Hate the ring...
see comment further above, but exactly why is it ok for dumbshit photographers and whomever else happened to obtain a ringside pass to touch the athletes (pushing Melvin’s head) or the competition surface (adjusting the corner-pad to make Melvin’s head more visible) ? How the F is that true sport? Sorry, it’s just not.
Two athletes and a referee…that’s MMA, anything else is bordering on WWE….
by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Jul 10, 2010 5:17 PM EDT reply actions
I didn’t see any cameras in the Dream officials hands but then again I was easily distracted while watching that event.
"I am going to burn your fucking house down, but you will blow me first"
by Barack Lesnar on Jul 10, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
it may not have been photographers at DREAM 15..
…but it’s been photographers at many other Japanese events I’ve watched…..doesn’t really matter if in this instance it was the VP of Production pushing Melvin’s head., the point remains the same….keep your hands off the athlete’s and the corner-pads, and let the ref do his job…
Better yet, just fight in a cage. MMA in a ring should go the way of the single goalpost at the front of the endzone….it’s just awful…
by BrothersGottaAndyHug on Jul 10, 2010 6:26 PM EDT reply actions
So its not ok for people outside of the ring to interfere with the fight, but its completely ok for the fighting surface to completely change the way the fight is fought? The cage restricts the movement of the fighter on the bottom allowing a fighter who could be far less technically skilled to win, as long as they have more physical strength or cut more weight. The BEST fight surface would be an open mat, but that isn’t likely to ever happen.
by Gallow Glass on Jul 11, 2010 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Is it cool to like Aoki again?
Can I come out of the closet? (Aoki closet)
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
You can as long as you don’t compare him to Carwin, Aoki is about as one dimensional as they come to try and compare him in anyway to Carwin is silly. No other HW aside from Brock would have survived at UFC 116, there is no comparison between the 2 one is a top HW and the other is an overated LW.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
well you still haven't refuted the comparison
they’re both exceedingly dangerous in the early moments of a fight.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Aoki's post-fight comments translated...
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/gryphonjapan/20100711
I caught and submit him at first,I heard"BAGI BAGI",destroy sound,but He did not tap.I thought “OK,this match become death fight!”I was going to destroy his leg.
Also says he wanted to fight Kikuno if they’d both won, but now hopes to participate in Deep’s 10th anniversary show in October.
by Chris Nelson on Jul 10, 2010 7:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
“OK, this match become death fight!”
I’m going to say this often.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Until the student became the teacher
and he was forced to kill him. He cried for months afterward.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Shinya Aoki has confirmed his status as the uncontested #1 lightweight in Japanese MMA by beating Tatsuya Kawajiri. If Aoki can somehow finagle a rematch against Strikeforce champ Gilbert Melendez in Japan in a ring, he might take it.
I really have to wonder if Kid Nate has ever actually watched any of the Dream fights. Aoki announced in the ring that he is fighting Melendez at Dream 16. Exactly how did you miss that?
HTML5 + WebM now! Death to Flash!!!
guess i'll need to update for those who weren't following Chris N.
that wasn’t what aoki said.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Gotta laugh at everyone that kept saying Kawajiri was going to knock Aoki cold
Aoki took his foot home with him and he did it while wearing SHORTS!
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
The biggest shots he hit were after the fight
when Aoki was standing over him and talking to him. Wonder what he said.
Forget it Donny, you're out of your element.
Aoki told him thank you
and that he gave his all cause he respects Kawajiri so much. He also said he appreciates him and the way he lives his life. And that he’s his favorite fighter.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 5:05 AM EDT reply actions
I wish
I could speak Japanese….but it’s soooooo fucking hard to learn. I gave up.
USMC vet. MMA nut.
Sea-Town stay down!
Rousimar Palhares is a dirty fighter.
Pain don't hurt...
My girlfriend's FOTB.
I gave up trying to learn it a few years ago. Writing it is just ridiculous.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I never
even considered writing and reading it, Jesus no.
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
I mean this in the least racist way possible:
It appears to be random squiggling or chicken scratch. It blows my mind that it actually contains information. I guess our writing probably doesn’t look too ‘normal’ to other people either.
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
'It blows my mind that it actually contains information."
Made me laugh. :)
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
Aooooooookiiiii
Shhhhhinnnyaaaaa!
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
Mellllllbiiiiiinnn
Maaaannhoooee!
by B.H. Farnsworth on Jul 11, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Booooooobbbbuuuu
Saaaapppppppuuuu!
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
One-dimensional blog.
I usually don’t post and just read BloodyElbow… but what’s with all the Shane Carwin hate around here? The article earlier this week that was completely biased, and now this thinly-veiled swipe at him during a Dream write up? Really?
He’s one-dimensional even though he has quite a few submissions to his W column, stopped all of Brock’s take downs in the first round, and has a great striking game? Yeah, Carwin gassed, and maybe you worship Brock’s crappy tattoo’s, but that doesn’t mean Carwin is a crappy fighter.
He Certainly doesn’t deserve constant snipes from BE. If anything is considered fighter hate or disrespect I’d have to say these constant hit pieces would qualify.
Anyway, Dream 15 was a great card.
Melvin Manhoef and Zaromskis are probably in the same boat right now. Highly overrated and exposed by more well rounded competition.
by Tanhauser on Jul 11, 2010 7:31 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Background is necessary
The author of this post loves Shinya – I think it’s a favorable comparison.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jul 11, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
thanks Subo
although I don’t “love” Aoki. I think he’s behaved awfully on numerous occasions — faking injury against JZ, flipping off Hirota after breaking his arm, etc etc
In fact I’d have to say he’s one of the least admirable people in all of MMA.
I do have great appreciation for his fighting abilities though, the guy is a submission machine!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I don't see how saying he's a threat to finish anyone in his weight class
in the first round is disparaging in any way shape or form.
It’s pretty fucking high praise in my mind!
But he’s also shown no indication that he’s a particularly well rounded or complete fighter. He’s a force of nature and a pretty skilled wrestler, but he’s not GSP or anything as a technician.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Highly overrated?
I think before Manhoef’s limitations at MMA became very obvious… so him getting outdone on the ground and submitted was no surprise, it was Mizuno getting the better of him (eventually) on the feet that was.
yes
I agree, AMC pankration fellas!
Come up to Seattle and learn ya’ll. You can sleep in my basement!
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Jul 11, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
and
ladies ;)
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Jul 11, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Too much hate
in general on BE, sadly.
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
Pain don't hurt...
by RolloTomasi on Jul 11, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you just going to keep posting that?
Or will you leave eventually?
Because that – what you posted? – that isn’t constructive or helpful, let alone interesting.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
you again
go away troll
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
"what the f**k is the internet?"
Pain don't hurt...
Wait a minute - is that hate?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
only for you
;)
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
"what the f**k is the internet?"
Pain don't hurt...
So the person responsible for the "Too much hate" on BE
…is you! I know how to solve this problem!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Do you
just come on the internet to pick fights?
anyway i’m over it.
Goodbye.
God help me, I have a problem. I'm a Shinya Aoki fan. I don't know what to do about it...
"what the f**k is the internet?"
Pain don't hurt...
Isn't that why it was first sponsored by DoD?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Two things
“Shinya Aoki has confirmed his status as the uncontested #1 lightweight in Japanese MMA”
…how much that means is up for debate.
And when Kawajiri was kicking Aoki in the face, was The Voice saying, “Now taste my feet”? OR “How’s taste my feet”? Because the first is just cute, but the second would be AWESOME.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
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