The Fertitta Files: The UFC's German Experiment Off to Shaky Start
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 2:51 PM EDT
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It was interesting listening to Lorenzo Fertitta last weekend. He gave a keynote speech at the UFC Fan Expo, the day after Dana White and in front of a much, much smaller crowd. Yet, in a prepared speech and a fan question and answer session, Fertitta said much, much more. Fans asked Fertitta much braver and more insightful questions than most reporters manage and Lorenzo was up to the challenge.
One issue that jumped out was the UFC's intention to become a worldwide brand: and why that has turned out to be such a complicated task. The UFC has struggled in the United Kingdom, angered their new partners in the middle east, and failed to launch in Japan. But it is Germany that stands out as the UFC's biggest failure-and it's biggest challenge.
After drawing a meager crowd of just 12,854 for their German debut at UFC 99 in Cologne (in an arena that seats from 18,500-20,000 depending on the setup) the event was subsequently lambasted in the German media. A crusading politician named Norbert Schneider sought to get the sport banned on German television. With allies in the boxing and professional wrestling communities, he succeeded. Despite an 11 PM timeslot, the sport was deemed unfit for public consumption. DSF was forced to pull all UFC programming after the Bavarian state office for new media used a "human dignity" law to justify overruling the ratings board who decided MMA was in good company with porn ads and other late night fare.
To the Fertitta's, "no" is an unacceptable answer. They battled politicians and a hostile media here in America-and won. Zuffa is an aggressive company. Like former President George W. Bush (who Fertitta once donated money to), Zuffa practices a distinctly American form of cowboy style diplomacy. Don't want them in your community? Too bad. Banned in Toronto, they decided to open an office there. Banned in Germany? Well, they're coming anyway.
I appreciate the enthusiasm, but in this case it could backfire in a big way. The UFC is currently banned on German television. Their network partners DSF are batting for them and the case is pending in court. Pushing German politicians is a bad idea. The battle could start at a local level politico and spread like a horrible virus to a state level operator. It's not much of a logical leap to say that an event that is inappropriate on a 52 inch Sony is also inappropriate live and in person. A politician looking to make a name could score an easy political victory by running the company right out of town.
Sometimes pushing hard works. Bullying fighters, agents, and competitors-that's just good old fashioned American capitalism. But bullying politicians in Germany isn't a winning proposition. For once Zuffa needs to concede the battle in order to win the war. Otherwise they may see themselves banned in Europe's most combat sport friendly country.
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Politicians and bureaucrats
They’re just waiting to have their palms crossed with some silver. Make a “donation” to their “political campaign funds” and the UFC will be good to go.
by Pantherhare on Jun 8, 2010 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Germany's
not quite as corrupt as we are in the U.S.
As a political consultant who’s done some lecturing in Germany, it was very disheartening to learn how little money is involved in German campaigns. Bully for them, but bad for would be international political operators like me.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
As a political consultant who’s done some lecturing in Germany
lol wut. is George Clooney gonna have to play Kid Nate in a movie?
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
sadly
I think rick moranis would be more like it
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Jun 8, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are. I lived in Germany for four years and worked primarily with major touring acts from concerts to the WWE. I am lucky to know some folks with pertinent opinions.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Is Germany Europe's top combat sport supporter?
I thought that award would go to the UK. From my perspective, I would even rank the Netherlands (Holland) before Germany.
Yes, I know, but boxing is big in UK and kickboxing is big in Holland. You can’t argue with the fact that the UK has richer boxing tradition. Me being an American and living across “the pond”, I just hear way more about the UK and their admiration for boxing and likewise with Holland and kickboxing.
Boxing is much bigger in Germany than it is in the UK and both are significantly more popular spectator sports than kickboxing is in Holland.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Its ok Dana will just go over and tell the To F" themselves over and over again until he gets his way
by nsiegel on Jun 8, 2010 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
France are chomping at the bit for the UFC. I’d like them to divert their attention there if Germany continues to be such an arse-ache.
I don't think they can. The MMA rules France passed would ban the UFC, I believe.
- There will be no "Cage" events; all events must be held in a ring.
- There will be no kicks to the body or the head on the ground.
- There will be no knee strikes to the head on the ground, but the body is allowed.
- There will be no elbow strikes on the ground.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 8, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
No elbows on the ground is my least favorite rule
its one of the most effective ways to GnP
Strikeforce is just limiting what wrestlers can do
by TheBiggertheyare... on Jun 8, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Except the part about no "cage" events...
Strikeforce uses a cage too.
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate...
Aleksander Emilanenko was supposed to fight in Paris recently, don’t know if it happened.
The UFC is getting popular in France lately, since they started showing TUF and recent UFC events for on the cable. The game worked very well to, pretty unexpected for me. They should sign a deal with Eurosport, it could open many doors.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Am I right about the rule set? I don't know if that article is outdated.
If websites like this are any indication, France is salivating for a live show.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 8, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Directly to the east of Germany
there’s a country that would welcome the UFC with open arms
Follow @MMARocks and @tjmarciniak
by greco-roman airlines on Jun 8, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Hush
Because Philiipines have so much more disposable income, right?
Follow @MMARocks and @tjmarciniak
by greco-roman airlines on Jun 8, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The UFC was packed and ready to go to Manilla before the economy dumped.
Follow @MMARocks and @tjmarciniak
by greco-roman airlines on Jun 8, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
It would help if they had any German stars (Dennis Siver is the only German fighter they have I believe), although that’s a relatively minor issue compared to the obstacles they have right now.
I don’t think they should go directly for Germany. Focus on countries in Europe adjacent to them that may be more receptive first. The Polish are huge fight fans, and they’re right next door (I’m too lazy to make any WW2 jokes here). KSW has had some success as a Polish promotion, as much as any other European promotion I can think of. The UFC should try and get Mamed Khalidov and do a show in Poland. Maybe do a show in Denmark; Copenhagen is a huge market and German fans could come over the border to see a show there. Holland shouldn’t be too hard to get into. And continue to try and get on German tv before trying to run a show in the country.
by Chromium on Jun 8, 2010 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
MMA is not that big in Poland, Mariusz Pudzianowski is. KSW barely did 4000 attendances without Pudz.
UFC also won’t be able to do a 1mln $+ gate here, as Poland is much poorer country than Western European ones. No one would pay more than 50$ for a ticket.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
Not to be Debbie Downer
But I’m not sure Poland is the way to go, what with basically their entire government dying earlier this year
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
4000 for a C-league is still quite respectable (Bellator would kill to get 4000 people at a show), and even in a relatively poor country like Poland I would suspect there are enough MMA fans who are well-off financially that they could do a good gate in Warsaw, even if it won’t be the sort of gate the UFC got at UFC 114. Anyway they should still try and get Khalidov. I know Pudzianowski is like a national icon and Khalidov is just another fighter, but he’s still one of the best unsigned MWs out there and would be a good acquisition because of that alone, plus a few local guys who are good always helps get people interested.
The UFC should try to get Mamed Khalidov anyway
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
Khalidov
should cut out the flashy stuff and just fight. Only reason why he isn’t Sengoku MW champ is because he wasted gas on flashy crap.
I find it amusing that government officials in Germany are using "human dignity"
as a shield against MMA, when their own small businesses are selling some of the most filthiest smut. (If you’ve ever been to Germany, you’ll understand where I’m coming from when it comes to the porn they sell. Human dignity, it does not embody). This is mostly a money issue, with politicians that have a hand in the boxing and wrestling jars wanting to protect their piece of the combat sport pie.
The second show in Germany is reportedly booked for November 13th in Oberhausen
https://twitter.com/GNP1de/status/15671116353
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
"angered middle eastern partners"
hadn’t heard about that, could you elaborate?
by IpullguardIRL on Jun 8, 2010 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I saw it
But I missed the part where their frustration was on screen lolz
by IpullguardIRL on Jun 8, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
A poor performance by a headliner doesn’t equate to angering you business partners causing expansion issues similar to Germany. Sno – please elaborate on why mid-east partners have been angered?
by pwrcartel on Jun 8, 2010 2:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I didn’t get a good sense of WHY things were in a bad way, just that it was a tense start to a new partnership. I don’t know the details.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
With the exception of one awful performance by a jackass who I will refrain from naming, I didn’t see anything wrong with UFC 112. I seriously doubt that the UFC’s partners are going to be ‘angered’ by one subpar performance in the cage.
BJ and Anderson are arguably the UFC’s 2 most exciting finishers and neither of them put on anything close to an exciting performance, would you have been happy watching that after sinking $200 million dollars into the company?
by ufc4 on Jun 8, 2010 3:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So you are saying ONE card is what these guys will judge the UFC on? Really? Come on now, I am sure they are a little more informed about the product.
by Darren Watkins on Jun 8, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
lmao
The Sheikhs aren’t new to MMA, they’ve loved it since pretty much the beginning, especially submission grappling.
You think they would buy a stake in the UFC without knowing it’s entire history?
These are the guys that run ADCC, they love this stuff as much as we do.
They knew the score going into it and although I’m sure they were disappointed in Anderson’s performance they aren’t jumping ship anytime soon.
I am seeing a few oddities here...
First: “the UFC has struggled in the United Kingdom”
Continued growth, a upward trending fan base and sold out shows are good things. In what way have they struggled?
Second: “angered middle eastern partners”
Sensationalism much? Or did someone go on record stating that the main event of their most stacked card of the year really piss of their investor?
Third: “Germany that stands out as the UFC’s biggest failure”
Sure the event didn’t do all that well, but it was their first attempt at a show in Gernmany. Was the response any worse than what happened here when the American government got involved?
Is there any evidence to suggest that Fertita is over there bullying political figures, or is is possible he is meeting with politicions and having diplomatic discussions to inform the misinformed? Have you heard that he is over there going about things the wrong way.
There are a few assumed thoughts here that I have never heard anything about. Do you hav reason to beileve these things or are they assumptions?
by truck on Jun 8, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I have reason to believe all these things. Pushing a live event while banned on television is a VERY dangerous game there.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
You want me to substantiate future events? I have reasons to believe these things, mostly conversations with Germans in the entertainment industry there. I lived in Germany for four years and still have friends there who were interested in the UFC’s predicament.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 9, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I am talking about the assumptions made about the past / current.
1) You say they have “struggled in the UK”, when most think they have succeeded.
2) You say they have “angered middle eastern partners”, do you have a source that confirmed this or is it an assumption based on AS and his antics.
3) You say that “Germany that stands out as the UFC’s biggest failure” even though it is admittedly a work in progress in the very early stages.
4) You assume they will put on another show without further diplomacy. Has this been suggested?
5) You assume that Fertitta will use no strategy beyond bully tactics, do you have an in at the meetings? Do you know this to be true?
These sound like off base assumtions to me…
by truck on Jun 9, 2010 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you for bringing facts to where they are vastly needed.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Jun 8, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oberhausen is in the state of NRW. We had a election 2weeks ago and could possibly face a more liberal administration which could help a lot(old administration was conservative)
But all of that wouldnt help to get the ufc back on tv because DSF has his place of residence in an other state, and regulations are statewise.
Just curious, Jonathon, but is the UFC struggling in the UK? (I thought they were popular, but I’m about as far out of that particular loop as can be)
Also, what did they do to anger their Middle Eastern partners (I assume you mean Abu Dhabi)?
How dare you...
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
UFC 112
and Anderson Silva’s performance embarrassed everyone involved, ESPECIALLY the Sheiks who were hosting their first UFC.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
People keep saying that
but I see precious little evidence supporting the claim.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on Jun 8, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
not really
If one event wasn’t that great but it still made money and projected profits for future events is pretty good, it’s not so obvious that someone would be angered
by IpullguardIRL on Jun 8, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think they’d be angered that this huge new investment they made in the UFC had them looking kind of stupid after the first ever event in Abu Dhabi? It seems kind of obvious to me they’d be angry because the show turned out pretty terrible.
by Johnnynumber5 on Jun 8, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
How much money did they make?
I think that would be a much better indicator of their mood.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
Let me reverse it a little
Do you think they were more likely to be happy or angry? That kind of represented the government of abu dhabi all over the world since they had just purchased a 10% stake in the company and had their first show there.
by Johnnynumber5 on Jun 8, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Knowing how the sheik probably bathes in money
I’m not sure.
However, from a fan’s perspective the Anderson fight was pretty bad.
The BJ Penn fight, no complaints from me, Edgar had a strong performance against someone thought to be practically unbeatable at LW, especially with his new level of motivation.
by pickleofguatemala on Jun 8, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Being embarassed by an employee’s theatrics is one thing, but how dies that slow internation expansion like German laws, French laws, etc which have a direct impact on the UFC’s ability to put shows on there? It’s apples and oranges.
If Sheik Tahnoon is impeding the progress of the next planned mid-east show that is one thing, but if he was just embarassed that one performer didn’t deliver it’s not a valid point.
To be clear, one less piece of supporting evidence doesn’t change theconclusion.
by pwrcartel on Jun 8, 2010 2:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
As best I can tell the conclusion is:
“I assume the UFC is trying to bully the German regulators, so they should give up now. If they don’t give up npw, they might be banned… Oh wait they are already banned. What are we talking about again?”
ufc in uk is not struggling
Jonathan, i would like to know where you base this assumption on but as far as i know, this is entirely false. UFC 105 for example completely sold out, not far away from record numbers for the venue if i remember correctly.
Hail Hail! Come on Celtic !
www.fullmount.co.uk
by Liam Sherry on Jun 8, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The UK is not the money pit it once was, but I am interested in how London does with a subpar card.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
German media loves boxing
They consider it the civilized way to pound enough brain damage into someone.
However MMA = horrible barbaric sport
by pickleofguatemala on Jun 8, 2010 1:59 PM EDT reply actions
This already came up back with Joe Louis vs. Max Schmeling
Complete with claims of Americans using 4-ounce gloves for eye gouging…
Not a failure in the UK
First off, the UFC definitely hasn’t failed in the UK. MMA is by far the fastest growing sport here and I expect it will over take boxing in terms of popularity within the next 5-10 years.
Secondly the UK is part of Europe, and is definitely not behind Germany as a ‘fight friendly’ country.
I think
it was more talking about how hard the struggle was to turn MMA in the UK into a viable market. It wasn’t always looking as good as it is today.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
The UK market looks great
114 was the highest rated show on ESPN last week as was 112 in April (112 trashed an SPL game in ratings). UFC 105 had a bigger gate than 104 and the video games have sold like chocolate covered cunnlingus machines.
In short the UK loves the UFC although we don’t care for Strikeforce. Seriously an epsiode of the first series of TUF was more popular than Fedor vs Rogers.
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 8, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummmmmmmmm...
The first game sold great, the new one? Not so much.
by ufc4 on Jun 8, 2010 3:17 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No 3 overall behind RDR and the World Cup Game.
http://www.chart-track.co.uk/index.jsp?c=p/software/uk/latest/index_test.jsp&ct=110016
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 8, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
as i stated above, the UFC has went from strength to strength in the UK. The amount of press mainstream press coverage (‘highbrow’ broadsheets such as the telegraph having an mma corespondent ), tv ratings on espn doing very well, and excellent gate numbers & merchandise sales.
Hail Hail! Come on Celtic !
www.fullmount.co.uk
by Liam Sherry on Jun 8, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why don't they just try Russia instead...
Oh wait… They don’t have that guy -———————————————————————————————>>>
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Because M-1 holds too many stacked cards in Russia for the UFC, Strikeforce, or Bellator to gain any ground
They could never touch M-1’s cashcow market.
by pickleofguatemala on Jun 8, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait a minute
M-1 makes money other than by screwing Fedor?
by ufc4 on Jun 8, 2010 2:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
m1 puts on fights in places like Finland, etc.
’Course, some of their fighters, like Valtonen, are swastika-tatted bums.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 8, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I realize that, the part I’m questioning is his assertion that M-1 is making money hand over fist on these shows.
by ufc4 on Jun 8, 2010 3:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
maybe not hand over fist
but I’ve seen some of their stuff on like Sportsouth or whatever and they’ve had some fairly full arenas
they’re not in the tank, is what i’m saying
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
Because M-1 holds too many stacked cards in Russia for the UFC, Strikeforce, or Bellator to gain any ground
M-1… stacked cards… this is a joke, right? I mean, I do think the UFC could benefit from picking up a few Russians fighters even if they can’t get Fedor, but the way you put it is a joke, right?
Huh
What a strange and directionless article. Just heaps upon heaps of propagandizing conjecture and an abrupt ending. If this is the controversial article you teased last night, it was a worse payoff than a major Zuffa announcment.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jun 8, 2010 2:32 PM EDT reply actions 10 recs
There is conjecture (this is commentary) but ...
I think he makes a good point about how using traditional Zuffa tactics could hurt them in their expansion efforts in Europe and specifically Germany. Strange? Yes. Directionless? Not so much.
by Johnnynumber5 on Jun 8, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Lacking direction, then
If you want to be picky.. You can warp perceptions and dance around hypotheticals no matter the subject. It was limp.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
by Blackout612 on Jun 8, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It did seem to be lacking the ammunition necessary for backing up his stance about Germany.
by Johnnynumber5 on Jun 8, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The article offered no context of why those tactics would hurt the ufc. No insight to how German politics work, how the public in Germany reacted to the fight and the media back lash. Maybe have some more facts and data to back up the point that is being made.
by Darren Watkins on Jun 8, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s a blog post, not a book. I think most readers here know what was said in the German press about the UFC event there.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok sorry for expecting more. I didnt need a book but I dont know what was said in the German post and I have been reading here for over a year.
by Darren Watkins on Jun 9, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry. Try this…
http://www.watchkalibrun.com/2009/6/17/912160/german-media-brands-mma-blood-and
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 9, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
"What a strange and directionless article. Just heaps upon heaps of propagandizing conjecture and an abrupt ending. "
Do you expect more from BE? MMA Journalism is still very very much in the non to low-paid rough early stages, and you get what you pay for.
by pickleofguatemala on Jun 8, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm not here to argue the merits of MMA journalism
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
@pickle
Blogging is more commentary than straight journalism.
by Johnnynumber5 on Jun 8, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
maybe it's just because i'm from germany and the fact that i'm pissed about not getting more ufc live action over here
but i liked the article.
Go big red!
Oh, you can do better than that.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
Maybe. I just don’t want to wind up smashed on the right side of the page 500 comments later. And banned.
Because something about me has led you to believe I’m sensitive? Don’t flatter yourself.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
Honestly, stop taking yourself so seriously. You’re on the internet.
"I have trained to fight an army. There is no way one man can stop me if many cannot." -Georges St. Pierre
You have cooties.
Circle circle dot dot…
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Jun 9, 2010 3:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Zuffa should focus on North America (including Mexico)...
MMA isn’t even an established sport in America. How about solidify your presence here, then move overseas. Over-expansion too quickly could come back to bite them in the future. First get your home market together. MMA is still a niche sport here.
by Akorn on Jun 8, 2010 2:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A crowd of nearly 13,000 is meager? How many paid fans did UFC draw to Royal Albert Hall in 2002 and how are they doing in the UK now?
it must be noted tho that there was next to no promotion going on, at least not in the mainstream media/TV
i had to learn that the ufc is coming to germany through american blogs. :D
Go big red!
A crowd of 13000 for a debut in a 19000 seat building? With rumors of heavy papering? Yeah, that’s meager.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Its will known that throughout history the Germans have been a peace loving nation and would never condone violence against his fellow man
by pandaboy99 on Jun 8, 2010 2:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
it’s really sad how people can’t immediately figure out how to post pictures; we’re supposed to be the fuckin internet generation. do you not scroll over the little buttons above the text window to see what they are? does your technical intuition not tell you that if so many other people do it, it must be some simple thing staring you right in the face?
sorry for the vitriol, i just hate seeing people be under the impression that they can’t figure something out without being told.
find the picture you want, right click it, hit properties, copy the URL. hit the little tree picture, paste the image url. boom.
by Stillberry on Jun 8, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
'Europe's most combat sport friendly country'
What are you smoking? The UK and Holland are both far ahead of Germany in their love of combat sports, boxing comes from England!
Poorly written article.
by mcicp19 on Jun 8, 2010 4:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Would like to add that boxing existed in Egypt / Rome and Greece
thousands of years before England existed…
Obviously he was talking about modern boxing
In Ancient Egyptian or Ancient Roman Boxing, you might as well guess if wore cestuses or rattlesnakes for gloves, hairpulling, biting, and sand throwing probably got you points on the judges scorecards.
by pickleofguatemala on Jun 8, 2010 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Germans love boxing. I’ve spent plenty of time in Holland. They love kickboxing the way Brazilians love Jiu Jitsu. I.E. most of them don’t give a crap.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 8, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. Divide that interest by 50. Now you are picturing kickboxing in Holland. Divide it by 500. Now you are picturing BJJ in Brazil.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 9, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea
so I’ll have to take your word for it. Hard to imagine people caring so little about what so man of their countrymen are so good at.
Perhaps all any country needs to gain interest in a sport is probably the same every country needs, a big star.
Red Grange supposedly saved professional football from complete extinction. Bird, Magic and MJ saved the NBA. Jack Dempsey and Babe Ruth made boxing and baseball explode in the Roaring 20s. I wouldn’t know because I wasn’t around for any of it.
Perhaps all Germany needs is a German Chuck Liddell.
Grrr... Snowden... You were just starting to win me over and then this... :S
I don’t really follow your train of thought here at all and I am not sure what you are trying to say.
I inderstand this:
Instead of using bully tactics the UFC should conceed or else they risk being banned. That makes perfectly logical sense.
But…
It only makes perfectly logical sense if we assume that:
The UFC is using bully tactics (are they? how do we know?)
The UFC isn’t already pretty much banned (they are)
Putting on another show will be met with opposition (from who? a hypothetical politician?)
Making no effort is better than making an effort / the issue will resolve itself (how?)
Not putting on a show is beneficial (is any backup for that?)
There is a legal mechanism for them to fight the television decision. People in the know there tell me that pushing a live event in the country while this is going on will likely lead to a confrontational pol getting an easy win.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 9, 2010 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Has anyone suggested that they are gonna go right back
without so much as a discussion with anyone from a governing body? It is all fine and dandy that going back could be seen as offensive by some, but that isn’t the whole story and there is no reason to believe they are going to go about it the wrong way.
Clearly there was a major error made the first time, but to suggest that very savy and sucessful business men will move forward without a seconds thought towards a new strategy is one of the silliest things I’ve heard.
There are reasons to believe they are going about it the wrong way. Some people in that country believe this is a mistake.
Also, those savvy business men sure seem to spend a bunch of time in bankruptcy court. ;)
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 9, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
There are reasons to believe they are going about it the wrong way.
What are those reasons? If there are legitimate reasons to believe this, that would be the news. When making an argument or an opinon based on “believed reasoning” that nobody (especially the readership group) has ever heard anything about, one should expect a confused reaction.
I'm from Germany and my take on the whole thing is this:
German governments have developed a tradition of censoring things that are considered to be too violent. they usually aren’t very rigid when it comes to nudity (full frontal nudity on TV isn’t much of a problem, after 10PM they’re even airing softporn on DSF [UFC’s TV network partner in Germany) but for instance every video game (first person shooters especially) that is published in Germany is checked by a government agency and, as a rule of thumb, if it shows violence against people, it’s pretty much rated R (18+, legal age in germany) and if it’s gory it has a good chance of being banned completely.
Recent school shootings have started a similarly uneducated trend, video games and other interactive content wich shows violence is subject to even stricter laws now. And that whole hey-look-at-us-we’re-so-peaceful-drive which has become a political doctrine over the past years is exactly what’s holding back the UFC promotion in Germany.
That, and the fact that there are some ‘Fightclub’ kind of underground tournaments (especially in eastern Germany) but they usually have strong ties with militant, local nazi groups or at least the local hooligan culture – and of course no politician wants to be put anywhere near that, especially in Germany.
German politicans are very good at picking up on things like that, every 6 months or so we have a rather uneducated and straight up retarded media trend enabled by politicians which leads to some sort of restrictions. Some 18 year old guy drank himself to death, now we can’t buy alcohol past 10PM at gasstations in some states in the south. A child gets killed by some awol Rottweiler, new laws for ‘dangerous dogs’ are under way. Some guy goes postal and also happens to be playing counterstrike, as a reaction they enforce stricter laws, ban more videogames and obviously honestly think it’s going to help anything. All that accompanied by a heavily biased media and politicians trying to make something of the situation and trying to get some attention by the media.
It’s pretty much hopeless. I’m just glad they haven’t installed a china-like internet firewall (yet.)
I’m staying at home tonight, so if anybody feels like it, i’m open for a Q/A. :)
Go big red!
by pornflake on Jun 8, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Very solid info
Any imput on this article then?
Is bringing a show to Germany a bad idea? Would it be considered bullying? Will it make a difference in the long run? If the media and political base is completely sensationalist what works and what doesn’t for cracking through?
Is bringing a show to Germany a bad idea? Will it make a difference in the long run?
Personally I’d say no. But considering that the UFC can pull a crowd 4 times as big in the US with possibly even higher revenues (depending on how much promotional build-up there is) I’m tempted to say that at least from a business point of view it wouldn’t make too much sense. Maybe in the long run, but I’m not too sure about that either. Boxing is big in Germany, that’s true. But since the (government induced or at least fostered) public opinion is ‘peace at all cost’ I don’t see that happen (and thus the stance toward mma in general and the UFC in particular) any time soon.
Would it be considered bullying?
The politicians who picked up on it the first time had some successful media coverage and I think more of them will follow down that road. It’s a simple and cheap way of positioning themselfes in a way their potential voters would think. And as far as ‘all things violent’ goes, I think MMA is facing a (negative) cross-party consensus here. ;)
If the media and political base is completely sensationalist what works and what doesn’t for cracking through?
I study business and I’ve actually thought about that the other day, too. Promotional tools like UFC Primetime would never work in Germany. ‘Promotion’ itself has a bad connotation over here. As a rule of thumb you could say that Germans tend to turn products down which are sold overly agressively. UFC Primetime would probably be considered a commercial break which you use to get up, take a piss and grab a new beer. So there’d probably have to be a move towards establishing the UFC as a sport where everybody’s wearing ties and says nice things about eachother. But generally, if a sport enters the German market that isn’t about 22 morons chasing a ball it’s pretty much bound to fail.
Go big red!
by pornflake on Jun 8, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You don’t think bringing the UFC to Germany, while the event is banned on television for being “too violent” opens up the doors for politicians to take steps that will set the sport back a decade in the country? Others in Germany seem to think the TV ban will make convincing politicians to go after a national ban easy for the UFC’s powerful competitors.
Thoughts?
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 9, 2010 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
As of now, it’s been the thing of local politicians from Bavaria, I wouldn’t give them too much credit. Getting involved with a Bavaria based company was a mistake. The UFC can pretty much pick any venue in the northern part of the country (everything north of collogne should be okay really) and get away with it and if they want it to be aired in Germany they should probably consider talking to people from Sky or Premiere and sell it via PPV. It indeed is a bad idea to air it on public television (the equivalent to Spike) these days. I mean we used to get K1 and Pride fighting on Eurosport (DSF’s competitor) back in the day but I think now that all that focus is on the UFC I think a move to PPV would be smartest.
Go big red!
Thanks for that insight
Demagoguery is a time honored tradition in human history. Politicians can further themselves very easily by presenting a “crisis” and proposing a solution. People rarely judge these solutions by their actual results but by their “intentions”.
In today’s internet world people will get what they want. The growth can be hindered, but, not stopped without really draconian controls. I assume when you mentioned the “China-like firewall” people can watch the UFC on the internet.
Do you feel that people’s perception of Germany’s history, specifically WWII, is part of the national reaction to violence as opposed to sex?
Wouldn't be surprised if nukes (hypothetically) were involved too
There’s some debate about whether Japan was always going to be targeted first or whether Germany might have been the original target… and if you’ve ever read any of Stuart Slade’s work, nukes are fucking HORRIBLE.
Do you feel that people’s perception of Germany’s history, specifically WWII, is part of the national reaction to violence as opposed to sex?
I’d say so, yeah. Thats where the ‘no violence, no war’ attitude stems from. It’s just weird how at some point it started to affect everyday life in a way that they started taking away from the entertainment media with that reasoning.
Go big red!
Also, in addition to that I'd like to second the analysis that bullying as a marketing/diplomacy strategy cannot be applied in Germany
Public opinion on US based companies, the US government and Americans in general is, that they’re bold, unfriendly, ignorant and hard to deal with. I’m not going to go deeper into that, there’s nothing to know about that but that Germans love stereotyping and can be rather close-minded when it comes to foreign influences. At least that’s what I’ve learned in my 25 years of life. :)
Go big red!
I understand that bullying isn't well percieved...
Plus germany isn’t the only country with similar feelings toward the American government.
My beef was more with the assumtion that the UFC IS using bully tactics and is incapable of doing anything else. I was also curious about how putting on another show would be percieved. Would the German government take that as a big FU, or was the banning from television just the norm for political figure heads in Germany and is there a place for negotiation?
It certainly would be a big FU towards the politicians who rallied against the UFCs first appearance in Germany.
It certainly would be a big FU towards the politicians who rallied against the UFCs first appearance in Germany.
But those guys just need to be reasoned with. There’s a potential room for negociacion with state governments. To my knowledge, no law prohibiting MMA to be shown on TV has been passed on a national level.
It was a bad idea of the UFC to go to a TV partner, who can be made responsible under the law in Bavaria. Bavaria is Germanys most conservative state. They have a political party there which can only be voted for in that one state. And they have always gotten the majority of the votes. Bavaria’s crazy, it’s like Texas, Nebraska and Alabama on steroids. If they picked a TV partner that would operate in some other state (further north. much further.) there’d probably be fewer problems.
Go big red!
by pornflake on Jun 8, 2010 2:32 PM PDT reply actions
Go big red!
So... Correct me if I'm wrong...
1) There are some ways around the bans that are already in place, things just have to be gone about in a slow cautious manner and through the right people.
2) If the UFC uses the right steps and deals with the right people there is room for progress and to build MMA in Germany?
3) If the right steps are followed, another show is doable without complete banning.
yes, i would think so
the problem was, that the sports channel DSF (which cooperated with the ufc on that one) operates from bavaria and is a publicly available channel which falls under bavarian jurisdiction. and that’s bad. down there, they probably still chop your hand off if you’re caught stealing. ;)
i don’t think it’d be any problem at all to sell the fight via PPV through allready established PPV systems like premiere or sky.
Go big red!
the questions, however, remains: will germany draw enough ppv's just because it's held there
i mean the crowd in collogne wasn’t exactly massive.
Go big red!
As far as the UFC is concerned,
a minimal profit or even a minimal loss is probably acceptable on these type of ventures. Whether the event is a PPV with a marginal buy rate or a free to air event on Spike (which they do sometimes anyways), the first few events in a new market can easily be chalked up to marketing. As long as there is a gain in attention and revenue in the future it should be acceptable for the present to take a hit.
Most Germans I’ve met (never lived there, but visited several times, have lots of German friends, and my parents lived there for a bit back in the day) have a pretty positive attitude toward the US in general.
Yeah, like the rest of Europe they don’t like our foreign policy, and think of us as ignorant and unsophisticated, but I’d say they have a mostly positive view of us, on the whole.
Much more so than say, France, or Russia.
Thoughts from a german
The UFC should make sure to have a reliable Arena and city.
The XFC planned an Event at the Max-Schmeling Hall in Berlin and was thrown out of the Arena.
O2 has some experience with the UFC in London and Dublin.
So, the O2 Arena in Berlin would be rather safe.
Oberhausen would be good as well because the city is dead broke and could use the money a UFC event brings in
-stay away from southern conservative states like Bavaria
I think Germans are also the only ones that are at least at times willing to pay for a PPV sports event
Go big red!
WTF
The UFC’s biggest failure has nothing to do with Germany. Germany is nothing but another brick in the wall for the UFC and it will do nothing to alter the MMA landscape whether it succeeds or fails in that country.
The UFC’s biggest failure by a MILE is buying Pride, the 2nd largest MMA promoter in the world and then shutting it down. Seriously, who could forget that? Not only did they dispose of the amazing fights they were putting on, but they also killed the superstar machine that recruited mad talent from all over the world. Who gives a fuck about the UFC succeeding in Germany, sigh.
Neither is a failure drawing 13k for a first show and introducing the product free of propaganda and growing their band is never a bad thing. People came to the show and they put on a great card, they showed that it wasn’t what the media claimed it was as the show went off without a hitch. They sold some merch and laid the foundation to having more shows there mission accomplished on all counts as far as i’m concerned.
As far as buying PRIDE was a great move, it eliminated their only competition and basically made them the only powerhouse in mma. They also took their library which they have used to make more money and made sure that they didn’t give anyone access to any highlights to promote their shows.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
The UFC shouldn't be lobbying to politicians...
…they should be lobbying to people. And try to get their face on the news instead of that of a politician who knows nothing and just uses it for brownie points with footballmoms (no, not soccermoms… soccer doesnt exist… its called football!)
and for the obligatory "come here instead" message:
by Anton Tabuena on Jun 9, 2010 8:51 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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