Make the UFC Fighter Pie Higher, Dana White
by Nate Wilcox on Jun 4, 2010 10:28 AM EDT
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Ben Fowlkes has an important piece talking about Leonard Garcia and how he spent his first big MMA paycheck, a $35,000 Fight of the Night bonus for his 2007 war with Roger Huerta:
"I just blew through that money real fast," Garcia said. "Coming from being in the smaller shows and then getting all that money all at once, it seemed like it was never going to run out. I just rode it into the dirt."
He did do some good things with the money before it was all gone, like helping his mother pay off her car. He also traded in his own ride and got a Corvette - a car that's now, three years later, finally close to being paid off.
Then there were the days where he walked out of the mall loaded down with shopping bags, convinced that this lavish lifestyle would last forever.
"I had a different pair of sunglasses for every day of the week there for a little while," said Garcia. "I just thought the money was never going to run out because I had gotten it all in one big chunk. I learned real fast that it does run out and you need to learn how to manage it. I learned a lot from that one bonus."
Garcia has learned from his early mistakes:
"I try and look at when my next fight is going to be and then add three months to it, just in case something happens," he said. "Right now, my next fight is supposed to be in September, so I have to plan to pay all my bills up until November or December."
When he pocketed an extra $65,000 bonus for his "Fight of the Night" performance against Chan Sung Jung at the WEC's first pay-per-view event in April, Garcia made sure not to make the same mistakes that depleted his first Zuffa bonus check.
No fancy cars or shopping sprees this time. Instead he opened a three-year CD, renovated the bathrooms in his house, and began looking into an IRA.
The real importance of this story is that all MMA fighters, even the ones like Garcia who fight for the top promotions, live a feast or famine existence.
Managing large amounts of money is a very difficult hurdle for many fighters, one few are lucky enough to have to try and clear.
If you enjoy watching great athletes compete at MMA, it's in your own best interest as a fan for that career to be as financially rewarding as possible. Right now MMA fighters are dramatically under-compensated as a % of the overall revenue of big events like UFC 114.
As our own Micheal Rome wrote when analyzing the numbers from UFC 104:
I've done a lot of research into sports overhead, my guess is the UFC is probably spending between $3 and $4 million in overhead costs for the average event not including salaries.
They spend $500,000 on the countdown show, a six figure fee for the arena, between 500 and a million to broadcast in-house, then you have a very high cost of hotels and flights for all their staff and all the fighters, and finally all the money they spend on ad spots.
This is ignoring all the salaries they pay to staff and such, going to assume those as year-end expenses and not event-specific expenses.
My overall guess ahead of time here is they bring in about 12-13 million and spend 5 including salaries and bonuses. It's a very healthy margin.
In that same post he estimated the UFC keeps 90% of the revenue and the fighters get 10%:
That's roughly half of the entertainment and mainstream sports rule of thumb of 20% of revenue to "talent".
Zuffa may, or may not, be investing that money wisely in efforts to build the sport world wide and get it regulated in the big markets like New York and Ontario, but ultimately that does fighters at the end of their careers, like Jens Pulver no good.
Fans need to realize that what is best for the fighters is what's best for the sport and the fans. Not what's best for Dana White's bottom line.
Note: The headline refers to one of my favorite bits of wisdom from President George W. Bush.
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When i saw that headline
I thought Nate had a typing seizure.
(Dana raises a pie, made out of fighters, high over his head)
by judonerd on Jun 4, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Shitfarce just had an entire card of preliminary fights where not a single fighter was paid… get your priorities in check. Guys making 6 figures a year don’t need your tears.
I don’t think it was the very few fighters making 6 figures a year that Nate is talking about.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 4, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well even those fighters
only make six figures a year for a very few years. Imagine forced retirement at some point between 30 and 35 with no pension plan and very little opportunity to save any real money. I certainly wouldn’t advise any kid I cared about to get into MMA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Very Few? more than 100 UFC fighters make six figures a year or just shy of it. that’s more than a 1’3rd. Garcia, the example he used will make 6 figures this year. Jens made six figures when he was fighting. The majority of the rest make more than the national average. So what example pray tell are you talking about?
Even if the average UFC fighter has a 6 year run – he’d have more money than necessary to buy a franchise and never have to work a “job” again.
Shitfarce just had an entire fucking prelim card where they didnt pay a single fighter. If you care about fighters get your priority in check or if you want to talk about fighters who are actually getting paid teach them how to manage their money better.
The trajectory of fighter pay in Zuffa is very healthy for such a young sport which hasnt matured yet. You want jens to make more money? then a guy in china wont have an opportunity to make it a career in MMA. So you care about one fighter but not another?
The money isnt going under Dana’s mattress… it’s going to work. Long term more fighters will get paid, the industry will be more stable while pay will continue to increase in a logical manner…
How much are the writers on this blog getting paid? Is Mike Rome getting paid anyting or a pension? This site will be worth millions in the future if Kid Nate doesnt continue to fuck it up… Do the writers have stock options? seeing that it’s there content which makes up the majority of the value for which the site will be purchased for.
Leland Roland creates a good chunk of the content on here… so he better get some options. It’s about the real writers… not the tabloid trash we have to read every other day.
Share the pie fat boy.
by mmalogic on Jun 4, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 26 recs
This was hilarious
I hope Nate doesn’t get too angry with it.
Agreed.
Sometimes when people say stuff on here, especially when it’s articulated with such… grace, it’s like you could almost see the steam blowing out of Nate’s ears.
by pud333 on Jun 4, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
?
this isn’t the sort of things that bug me.
Seeing the readers inevitably side with the promoters over the fighters on the other hand…. that skeeves me out.
Logic is doing his job. He’s a shill and he’s fucking great at it. No beef with him except when he logs in drunk and goes overboard with the name calling.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Are we SURE he isn't Dana?
I wonder sometimes.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
“Side with promoter” = good for the growth of the sport = good for the fighters. It’s a simple logical progression, right?
The only reason i wouldn’t be cool with that logic is if the fighters were suffering such horrible conditions right now. But plainly put they are not.
this attitude reminds me of what i've seen in business and politics
over the last 15 years of my professional life — management is always right, big donors are always right everyone else can get fucked.
People who once worked for Enron and thought the management were geniuses got fucked hard.
Same for Bear Sterns.
Same for BP.
I’m generally opposed to concentrated power.
Everyone else seems to love to bow before the overlords.
Keep scraping along on your knees peasants.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jun 4, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are taking 3 companies that failed
Most companies don’t you know.
they all fail in the end.
And did you miss the economy going down a black hole 18 months ago? Our whole economic model is pretty precarious right now.
Keep grazing sheeple.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Ok our economy stunk. The dow lost 20% of its value and unemployment went from 5-11% or something like that. That hardly means that you know capitalism and free enterprise doesn’t work or that large corporations don’t create jobs, innovate or add value.
no
but it does mean that i’ve learned the hard way to stop trusting those in authority to do the right thing or even what’s in their own self interest.
I remember back in 1998 confidently sitting in the corner office of an Austin Texas based lobbying firm with close ties to Bush and looking forward to him winning the Presidency. I’ve learned a lot of painful lessons since then.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Nate, the Economy went down the black hole because of regulators trying to overcome the natural cycle of business. It was Allan Greenspan and others flooding the market with low interest rates that flooded the economy and created a real estate bubble. In a free market that wouldn’t have happened.
Enron was created through fraudulent acts.
If anything people who work for these companies should take a page from Dana and the UFC. Have a strong bottom line, make sure your product is healthy and growing, make sure your fighters are compensated based on the market competition, stash a little away in case of a rainy day, etc. Recessions happen, so be smart with your money and don’t take it for granted.
Not only that, but as long as the UFC is healthy, it will continue to grow, and make the way for a bigger pool of mma stars. Trying to fix the cost of their salaries contrary to the market has blowbacks of the kind you mentioned (economic recessions etc).
I know that for some reason you refuse to acknowledge that reality despite plenty of evidence in support of it (Affliction being killed off almost singularly because they were paying their fighters too much).
But seeing all your posts about/against Dana White is starting to look like a parody. I’m surprised I even came in here to comment, but alas, here I am.
by Dooda on Jun 4, 2010 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
What planet are you living on?
The market was extremely deregulated in the last 10 years.
How else do you think people were able to buy houses so easily and trade securities backed with the mortgages of those crappy house deals?
Live in reality before making dumb comments.
Fannie and Freddie taking 50% of that mortage risk off the market and into the G(SE) system had a lot to do with that
Of course the deregulation in removing the barrier between investment banks and all that played a large role as well.
There isn’t one cause or one angle to look at: the Fed, the backwards incentives for executives, the deregulation, some over-regulation (mark to market), the GSEs and outright fraud combined to form that shitstorm.
Not afraid to nitpick
The market may have been de-regulated, but it was regulation that caused the economic collapse (the regulation of interest rates thus the regulation of money flow). The population didn’t just decide “hey, screw savings, let’s blow it all on real estate”. The market HAD to because interest rates were so low the money had to be spent or suffer the devaluation caused by the inflated money supply. The reason there are thousands upon thousands of pages of regulation in the first place is to deal the supply of money that is artificially being regulated. In a true free market this wouldn’t have happened. Fannie and Freddie (quasi government agencies) buying up mortgages removed risk from the banks realizing said mortgages (more regulation causing the problem) they wouldn’t have made had they no guarantee that Fannie and Freddie not guaranteed they’d secure. Then you have the pressure created by Clinton and later Bush on the banks to make high risk loans to high risk customers (a certain # of their loans had to be to lower income customers).
However, none of it would’ve happened had the money supply not been inflated by Greenspan and later Bernanke trying to avoid the recession. Go ahead and look up how many pages of regulation there is on the financial sector and then come running back here telling me how dumb I am. Better yet, talk to someone working in the financial sector and ask them about how much they enjoy working in such a massively de-regulated sector. They’ll laugh in your face.
I suppose talking out your ass on the web is normal, but talking shit and calling someone else dumb when it’s painfully obvious you don’t know what you’re talking about? That’s a whole other level. Keep your stupidity hidden. Don’t flash to some stranger like some kook who get’s his rocks off on that sort of thing.
the market reality in all other sports and entertainment
is 20% to the talent. the UFC has a near monopoly and is doling out 10%. They’re also massively in debt. I hope they prevail, but I worry.
I’m also relentlessly critical of Dana and the UFC because NO ONE ELSE is critical of them at all.
Someone’s got to at least raise these issues or it’s all a big echo chamber shouting DANA IS GOD.
HAIL DANA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
There is nothing to worry about since the UFC isn’t in debt and hasn’t been in years let’s not start gonig down that road again.
by Nightwhistler on Jun 4, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
the UFC is in massive debt
here’s from the Las Vegas Review Journal:
Zuffa carries $450 million in debt, including a $25 million credit facility due in 2012 and a $425 million loan due in 2015, according to a November report issued by Moody’s Investors Service. Moody’s, however, said Zuffa’s income, which comes largely from events and pay-per-view receipts, should be sufficient to make its debt payments.
Moody’s said Zuffa’s financial outlook is stable with good growth prospects.
You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Almost every non-tech large corporation is in "mountains" of debt
Walmart is in $47 billion in debt, Procter and Gamble $30 billion in debt, GE has $517 billion in debt. Having some amount of debt on your balance sheet is in some ways a positive, not a negative if you are operating in a high growth area (like say for example, MMA). If the UFC’s equity value is something like 1.5B, $450 million in debt is very acceptable.
Not afraid to nitpick
So?
You say this like it’s a bad thing. If you are borrowing at say 5% and earning 10% on what you spend, you’d be wanting to borrow as much money as humanly possible. There’s a reasonable chance they are playing it safe by having a relatively low debt/equity.
Having corporate debt to make investments with is not the same as being “in debt” like an individual paying off their credit card and framing it like they are “in debt” implies risk of insolvency, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
Not afraid to nitpick
Zuffa could double its payroll
and still be in the black.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
I like that we're so sure about these 10% numbers.
It’s pretty cool.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Jun 4, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn’t take a whole lot of research to come to general figures. The exact figures are hard, but Zuffa is intentionally hiding the ball on them. Companies don’t hide the ball on what they pay their employees/ICs when they are proud of the numbers.
Out of the actual PPV revenues the number is higher than 10%. But the videogame, international TV deals, action figure deals, DVD deals, mag deals, etc…Zuffa does very well there.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently unfair or wrong in them pursuing their own interests. Their job is to get as much as possible while paying as little as possible.
Still, when you have an olympic gold medalist like Henry Cejudo openly saying he was going to do MMA, but he won’t now because he realizes there is no money in it, you have to wonder how many incredible athletes are choosing to avoid MMA because the money isn’t great.
I think Zuffa could eliminate a lot of these problems without increasing their payouts by that much.
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Isn’t what you said or were talking about but i’m not surprised since you continue to throw out false myths like Station Casino’s troubles having anything to do with Zuffa.
by Nightwhistler on Jun 4, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I still fail to see how the failure of parent company that financed
the original $40million the Fertittas sunk into the UFC before it started making some money is unrelated.
Obviously there isn’t a direct financial link, the money has to be paid to the Fertittas from Station before it can be invested in the UFC.
But the point is that once upon a time those guys had a big cash machine that made them billionaires and allowed them to sink a vast fortune into the UFC before seeing a return.
Now, while they remain rich, they don’t have the cash machine anymore so there won’t be any more huge cash infusions coming from the Fertittas. In fact the Fertittas are taking money OUT of the UFC rather than the other way around.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Because the Fertittas aren’t the majority owners of SC’s and since the UFC started making money it doesn’t need Daddy’s cash to prosper.
The UFC is self sufficient it makes money it allows them to spend money it will succed or fail no it’s own SC can disappear and the UFC will continue to chug along.
The fact is The Ferttitas aren’t cash strapped they have more than enough money and thanks to their new deal their expenses as far as expanding the sport will be lessened. Things are about as rosy as there is for any company out there. This is one of the few corporations that is thriving in the worst economy in decades how you get gloom and doom out of that is astounding.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Jun 5, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Out of the actual PPV revenues the number is higher than 10%
Based of some quick estimates you could say it is higher than 10% too…
For example UFC 114
920,000 buys x $50 = 46 mill
Using a 50% take home = 23 million
Gate = 4 mill
Total in = 27 mill
Total fighter salaries 1.37 mill disclosed
Two main event fighters are expected to equal over 3 mill so lets round it up to
4 mill total
4 million of 27 million is closer to 15%
How many of those buys are just home buys?
Bars pay well over that $50. The one I go to is charged more than $1K to show a UFC fight card
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
The problem isn’t finding some harmony between fighter % and promoter % for the sake of fairness and harmony.
The problem centers around the sport of MMA growth. Growth is partially dependent upon on top athletes deciding to purse an MMA career. If Zuffa is only using 10%-15% of it’s revenue to attract talented athletes than they are being outgunned by the NFL, MLB, NBA etc who spend nearly 40% of revenue on labor. This is a main reason why boxing is perpetually in trouble.
They’re not “in debt.” They are doing standard and very safe debt financing, which is what they should be doing.
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Which is to say, it’s true they have debt, but they’ve assumed it by choice for financial structuring and tax reasons.
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
One of the main advantages of being a private company is you dont have public shareholders opposed to debt that will hurt their equity value. Debt financing allows companies to be more aggressive in pursuing acquisition targets, but more importantly, it allows companies to deduct carried interest on the debt and effectively reduce their taxable income.
This is worth tens of millions of dollars to Zuffa in tax benefits, and it’s debt they will easily pay off.
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
That’s the smartest comment ive read. If everyone understood what you wrote this country would be thriving like tit cakes.
But alas, we have brain washed keynesians running amok.
Irrational exuberance.
Give me bernanke any day.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions
And thank God for Keynesians
and progressives or 95% of us would still be in the factories with locked doors making $1 a day working a 13 hour shift 7 days a week. But the owners would flourish, so it would be the right thing to do.
If Dana could pay these guys $100 a fight, he’d do it.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
That's a classic cherry picking of facts to wedge youself into a predetermined conclusion
Yes the Fed was lowering interest rates to grow the economy . . . at the behest of Wall Street. Anyways the lower interest rates was starter fuel, not the fire.
If I drop your interest rate from 6.25% to 4.95% on debts than I’ve increased your purchasing power, pretty simple. Of course the market balances out because nothing has improved on the actual resource side. That house you wanted to buy at $300k at 6.25% is now $340k at 4.95% because now you neighbor gained the same purchasing power. In the end, that house is still costing the same final price just with different sticker price and interest rate, no +/- gain actual cost/wealth. The smart financial people make money during the fluctuation and market adjustment, i.e. Wall Street.
The actual problem wasn’t the interest rate but loans the private sector decide to hand out with the better rates provided by the Fed: Negative amortized loans, balloon payments, variable interest rates. The standard locked interest rate loan was taken off the shelf, you had to beat a mortgage broker over the head for them to offer it. Of course mortgage brokers didn’t care if you could pay off those crappy loans they were offering because they were paid exclusively by a bonus when a the loan was signed. They would get $10k for the shit loan and only $3k for some safe/conventional loan and assumed no risk if the loan went bad . . .gee wonder why they pushed the sale of the shit loan?
Of course what about people accepting the shit loans . . . we make these rules and laws to protect us from the stupid people because they are stupid.
Finally the shit loan goes into a computer program that would split the debt into tiny little debts to be sold and packaged in investment portfolios. Of course no one from the investment side had much insight to these transactions because all the purchases and sales were made by computer programs but soon enough all the mini shit house loans were tied to everyone’s portfolio.
Finally, when negative amortized loan cancels because the debt expanded, the balloon payment is due or the variable interest rate goes up and the home owner cannot pay the bill than the string of yarn unravels. Hey, who needed regulation looking over these private business decisions to see the big picture? Eff it, it’s the Fed fault for lending and what does this have to do with UFC or Dana White?
When the mortgagers were making these loans, they made them because there was a virtual guarantee on them by Fannie and Freddie (and they were right, as shown by the immediate bailouts). So mortgagers were out there trying to realize as many loans as possible because, basically the government was guaranteeing them.
The money supply though basically made saving impossible because inflation ruined savings. Enter the Real Estate bubble. The money had to go somewhere. If there was no money, there would’ve been no issue. Too much risk. That’s what makes the most sense to me, but I know a lot of reasonable people who understand it entirely differently and so be it. It seems like most people talk about symptoms (rregulation etc) rather than the cause.
Most people at those companies lost thier jobs and just moved on to new ones
like many americans have over the past few years.
to lower paying jobs
ever ask a 55 year old Wal Mart greeter what his last job was?
What planet are you living on? Economic opportunities are dramatically diminished.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
They have diminished because people spend beyond thier means
and how do you know what jobs the people moved onto?
the statistics are pretty clear
many many many high paying jobs have vanished and not been replaced.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
but how many high paying jobs are there?
most people that work at those companies are not highly paid employees, they are admins, HR reps, janitors, clerical people all of which have moved on to new jobs. sure maybe a few people in managment had to take a pay cut to move somewhere else but thats life.
EVERYONE GOT FUCKED
excuse the yelling. but when a company like Enron goes down in flames, lives are ruined. R-U-I-N-E-D.
Some recover, many don’t.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Show me the study that says that?
like I said 90% of the people in the company were worker bee’s who most likely have moved on. Sure lives have been ruined of some but its not the majority.
everyone at enron lost their retirement
since their pension plan invested almost entirely in enron stock. believe me kid, I know these people. Enron left a huge scar in the economic life of Houston and the U.S. and it’s just one of many.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Can't argue with that
Enron royally fucked everyone involved with them. The lesson is never put all your eggs in one basket.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Jun 4, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
and MMA is putting all its eggs in the Zuffa basket.
Would you trust the unelected dictator of Abu Dhabi with 10% of anything you cared about?
How about two grandsons of a gangster who drove their family business empire into bankruptcy? They own 80% of the UFC.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
When football, baseball, basketball and hockey effectively put all their eggs in one basket (all of their best eggs anyway), it worked out pretty good for them.
no
those are leagues with dozens of independent owners. They are incomparably more financially secure than the UFC.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
How is MMA putting all their eggs in the Zuffa basket?
Sure Zuffa is the largest promotion but last time I checked Bellator and Strikeforce are still around.
MMA doesn't get to decide where its eggs go
Cuz…its not an intelligent entity.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
From the Depart. of Numbers I Pulled Out of My Ass.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
When I worked at Wal-mart in college, we had a botanist that was an Iraqi international who said he was a doctor in Iraq. Reminds me of The Office and the Chinese guy who claims he’s a nuclear scientist.
No actual useful information here.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 4, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I work at a university
LOTS of forign scientists are medical doctors in their home country, but can’t get licensed here.
Great, smart, hard working folks. However I think that medics in many countries are not the 4-5 years undergrad/science + 4 years med + 2 years residency or whatever horrible schooling US doctors have to subject themselves to.
So they come here and do other brainy/technical stuff and make 10x the money and don’t seem to complain over much
by hardlyworking on Jun 4, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually never doubted this guy. He actually told me very detailed accounts of open heart surgery where I was like:
“Wait a second… can he be making this shit up?”
“What was that body part he just said? Is that real?”
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 4, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Many of the foreign docs who aren’t doctors here tend to be older people who became doctors in the ‘70s and ’80s. It’s a pain in the ass to go back to the grind of studying for the boards, going through residencies and all the newly certified doctor training stuff.
So they find ways around it by taking medical field jobs that don’t require as much certification and time. A pair of my older cousins are doing this route.
Ribbit.
Missed the point
Enron, BP and Bear Sterns are fucked but that doesn’t matter. There are still oil companies and Banks because there’s still profit in oil and money.
In the "Side with promoter = good for the growth of the sport = good for the fighters" progression you grow the sport of MMA to a similar point. To the point where the fighters are like the oil and such a profit can be made off of MMA that it doesn’t matter if the UFC fails, which they will if they try and treat the fighters so unfairly.
The UFC will have been transcended by the sport and forced to evolve logically and fairly or risk being abandoned for another medium that the sport will embrace. And the sport will indeed eventually be big enough to do just this if the UFC is allowed to grow it unimpeded.
Of course Dana and co would be aware of this so that’s why i’m sure they’re treating their fighters accordingly and plan to in the future as well with goals like making MMA the biggest sport in the world.
"Side with promoter = good for the growth of the sport = good for the fighters"
Now, replaces
“promotor” with Andrew Carnegie
“sports” with steel industry
and
“fighters” with factory workers.
Tell me how that worked out for them. I’ll give you a hint – Army units had to be called in.
It’s this “The owner must always be right” mentality that led to the abuses of the Industrial Revolution.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
Whoa Whoa Whoa
Not comparable situations. Not in the least.
The fighters aren’t the workers, they’re the product. Honestly, this is all really quite silly.
Why would you assume
the ownership is treating the workers fairly? When has that EVER happened in a large coprporate setting? Ask a Bethlehem Steel employee how they were treated. Or a Dresser Wayne employee. Or any number or retirees whose employer unilaterally decided to bankrupt their pension plan and cut off benefits.
Why would a worker EVER have any confidence in an owner acting int the best interest of a worker? It’s against the owner’s financial interest to do so. That’s the way capitalism works.
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
And i’m assuming ownership (Zuffa) will treat the fighters fairly and keep them happy, because if they don’t, someone else will.
except anyone else who might have
has been driven out of business. MMA in the States and around the world could easily go the way of MMA in Japan. We’re just one Zuffa financial disaster away from that.
They’re smart guys and they’ve done great, I don’t expect them to fail. But there is a real chance they will and it makes me nervous to think they’d sink the whole sport with them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
“I try and look at when my next fight is going to be and then add three months to it, just in case something happens,” he said. “Right now, my next fight is supposed to be in September, so I have to plan to pay all my bills up until November or December.”
So he fights once every three months, and only worries about the bilss for THOSE THREE MONTHS. Yes, fighters deserve raises, but maybe Leonard Garcia should learn some financial responsibility too. He chooses his own path through life, same as you and I. He just seems to choose the one that leads to Armani Exchange.
Sounds like a peasant talking
Seriously, if you let the peasants run these businesses, they would ALL fail.
Yes, you get some that are going to fail due to bad/evil leaders. But there are MILLIONS of businesses being run by good, hard working leaders. Having been an executive for a very large international corporation, I can tell you the difference between a successful branch office and a poor branch office was the General Manager.
It wasn’t the “peasants” that matter, it was the leader. We could take a good leader and he would turn the crappiest branch around into a great one in 2 years. We could take a poor leader and it would be the opposite.
by Bob Loblaw TX on Jun 4, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not one or the other
While I appreciate that in the larger scheme of things, more money going to the fighters means better athletes in the sport, in a real world context advocating fighters get paid more just doesn’t register with most people.
Look, my wife and I both work full time at good jobs. We still have to pay a mortgage, car payments , bills, student loans, etc… and unless increased fighter pay results in those same fighters giving me money to pay my bills, I quite frankly don’t care.
It’s not a very sympathetic argument to me or most people working away at their normal jobs.
If you want to increase fighter pay it will come from an increase from the PPV fee not from the UFC’s pocket. Short of legislation or a union both of which look highly unlikely. The fighters who will get paid more will be the Brock Lesnars and GSP’s. Ask any one if the want to fork over more money for Brock and the answer will be a resounding no.
At least at one point the head of Disney made more money than his 5000 lowest paid employees combined. Did he really do more for the company than 5000 employees? No. Pay is seldom based on value. It is usually based on who makes the rules, in particular the rules about how the money will be divided.
by j.villain on Jun 4, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great piece Nate. It is really disturbing the lack of compensation the talent gets.
Root for the home team jack ass
by KING FEDOR on Jun 4, 2010 5:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I need to hire you to negotiate for us
with SBN.
But once again you’re mostly changing the subject rather than answering my post.
Why should Jens Pulver be expected to subsidize the future of fighters in China?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
he isn’t. zuffa pays that out of their own money. pulver agreed to fight for X amount of dollars.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jun 4, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
What prevents Jens from getting another job?
I go to work 5 days a week and will until I’m probably 60.
Sorry, champ, but your being able to do something does not mean everyone else is able to.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jun 4, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
For starters, employment in your current job is not likely to directly lead to brain damage.
by VirtualBalboa on Jun 4, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Doug Dedge seems like a good answer. How about Sam Vasquez?
by VirtualBalboa on Jun 4, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
They're not old enough yet
But I’ll bet dollars to donuts that Chuck Liddel, Wanderlei Silva, Randy Couture and such WILL have pugilistic dementia the older they get. Its unfortunate, but thats what happens. Happens to football players too.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
that is
if you don’t already notice how messed up chuck is
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I...what?
but…they just got older….
there! they did it again!
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Also Rampage
I mean, he was always weird…but notice the way he mumbles now, its uninteligible.
oh…and fucking look at JT…he’s a walking corpse as far as speech is concerned.
I’m pretty sure he’s an unlockable zombie in Resident Evil 6: MMApocalypse.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You replied to a comment containing Wanderlei, Chuck and Randy. That’s why he’s confused. pretty sure you were talking about Vasquez…?
ooooh...
shit you’re right. He was talking about Dedge and Vasquez… my bad sir Nate
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Really?
MMA as we know it is less than 20 years old, which means that the oldest veterans of the sport are still in their 40s.
Meanwhile, extensive studies have indicated that suffering repeated concussions and/or repeated blows to the head over an extended period has caused serious long term damage to boxers and football players.
While one could argue that MMA fighters absorb fewer head-shots and knockouts thanks to the style of fighting, head-shots and knockouts remain a huge part of the game, and as such a huge threat to the health of MMA athletes down the road.
To suggest that MMA doesn’t put fighters at risk of long-term brain injury because there haven’t been any MMA-specific studies to prove it is sophistic and silly.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 4, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah...
damn it, you got your post in before mine.
Also, it was better written.
fac
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing says that fighters can't work at all after MMA...
Fighters choose to get into MMA with no promises for a long term job. They should know that they are working within a limited window of accelerated earnings.
Sure some of the fighters could probably use a raise, but nobody makes them sign a contract or become a fighter to begin with. They have chosen that life.
Looking at a few recent cards, I’d say (on average) half or aleast 40% of the fighters pull in at least $32,000 / fight. Considering that is the average a normal person makes in a year, I am not that upset about it.
Salaries have increased and will continue to increase especially if Strikeforce or other competing organizations stick around to help force bidding wars.
US labor department states that today’s college graduates will have 3 to 5 CAREER changes and 10 to 14 different job changes by the age of 38.
A fighter can fight from their late teens till 38. If you’re good the majority of those years you can make 6 figures. And if you can manage your money you wont ever have to work again after that.
by mmalogic on Jun 4, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I don’t look at this from standpoint of feeling sorry for fighters, so much as from a standpoint of wanting to attract the best possible athletes to one of my favorite sports. While I think the dominance of the UFC has been a net positive for MMA, it has some downsides, not least of which is that the organization can behave like a virtual monopolist in its dealings with talent. All the UFC has to do is pay more than lesser promotions — not a big challenge, given its economic position — and it demand what it wants from the sport’s top athletes.
Without a fighters union, or some other counterweight to the UFC’s power, the UFC has no real incentive to dramatically increase salaries. Now I’m not going to waste too much time crying for guys who are being well compensated to do something they’d probably do for free, but if MMA and the UFC wants to attract the best athletes long term, they’ll need to put more money on the table, which, again, probably won’t happen unless a) another major promotion rises to the UFC’s level (not likely) or b) fighters form some sort of union to strengthen their bargaining position (less likely).
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 4, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
/\
this
My argument is an entirely self-interested in one. As a fan I want to see as many Garcia vs Jungs as possible.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
So it would be safe to say that MMA doesn’t need to have the best possible athlete to have the best possible entertainment value.
Just BE.
lol
garcia vs jung wasn’t the ideal example.
you win. let’s not pay the fighters anything and while we’re at it just sign over our bank accounts to Dana so he can grow the sport.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I just don’t think it’s reasonable for the UFC to look to compete with all the major sports for the best possible athletes. Especially at this point in time almost every athlete going in to those sports started playing those sports at a very young age and have played those sports for years growing up to to be considered a great athlete in that sport.
So having said that I think the concept of competing for the best possible athlete isn’t a real possibility at this time. I mean it’s not like there is this whole crop of great athletes every year that hit 20 years of age and then pick and choose what sport they want to play. All the great athletes got that great label by growing up playing that sport. Meaning MMA isn’t going to all of a sudden get the best athletes because those athletes are still going to go in to the sport they grew up playing.
The only way MMA is going to start getting those great athletes is if they start training as kids in MMA like they start playing football or basketball as kids. Which means I could make the argument that the UFC might be taking the proper steps to making that happen by spending money to grow their business and the sport exactly the way they are presently.
Just BE.
Also another big problem with the young kids coming up is that its really hard to measure what will happen to an MMA prospect. In hockey crosby and ovechkin walked into big contracts because it was a pretty good sign that they are going to own the league.
In MMA it is much harder to really sign a young prospect to a huge deal. For example that judo guiy from japan (cant spell his name isshi???) he was one of the biggest prospects out there and the UFC offered him a deal and it was probably some where in the 20 to 30 grand area. Dream came and pay out the ass for him and look what happened.
Yes im well aware that he was put up against a guy that was way to experenced for him at the time but the money that was paid to him he had to be the main event. You cant have a dude getting that kind of coin to be the first fight of the night.
http://www.cracked.com/funny-5031-jamarcus-russell/
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Here's an attainable goal
Create an environment in which a young, talented boxing prospect might chose instead to go into MMA.
Just because MMA can’t currently compete dollar for dollar with the NFL doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be trying to become more competitive in the search for elite athletic talent.
We all like physical freaks like Jon Jones and Brock Lesnar, so let’s encourage more of them to take up MMA as a profession.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Jun 4, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that what the UFC is accomplishing by growing their business and the sport in the process?
That is why Brock Lesnar is in MMA now isn’t it? Brock has stated in the past MMA wasn’t a viable option for him coming out of college because pro-wrestling could pay him so much more. He took the better paying option back then. The UFC grew and he took another look at it and decided it was now a viable option.
The UFC growing their business is already starting to appeal to some of the those type of athletes. Which means the UFC investing money in expansion and growing their business could be the answer to getting more athletes like Brock Lesnar. I mean look at all the top level collegiate wrestlers that are now transitioning into MMA.
Just BE.
you're a little slow today with your logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks
I expect better of you logic.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Everyone needs to learn how to manage their money....
When I was in the military, I saw people all the time re-enlist for a higher paygrade because they couldn’t pay their bills…only to still not be able to pay their bills. Hell, when was the last time that a big time lottery winner didn’t waste all their money and end up ruined?
All that said, the fighters themselves must do what they need to protect their futures and themselves. I would love to see Zuffa proactively work to raise what fighters earn so that they get a better share of the profits. The sad truth is that a lot of fighters in MMA, even with massive paydays, could end up like a lot of athletes (cough, cough Tyson, Conseco).
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace"
by UMBC Oriole fan on Jun 4, 2010 10:35 AM EDT reply actions
, the fighters themselves must do what they need to protect their futures and themselves
…unless what they determine to be best for them is to not sign with the UFC.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 4, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
What do you mean by that?
If fighters can get a better pay day and secure their future by signing somewhere else, why the hell should they sign with the UFC?
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace"
by UMBC Oriole fan on Jun 4, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
It was a joke. Re: Fedor and the fact that when it comes to Fedor and his decisions over what is in his best interest he is a coward who is ducking the ufc. Just a joke…
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
by the way, just to be clear I don’t think Fedor is a coward…
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 4, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Please let me know where they would sign then Brent that is paying more on average right now better then Zuffa does ? not to many choices are there now
please see above response. just a joke
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I have a problem with this line:
Fans need to realize that what is best for the fighters is what’s best for the sport and the fans. Not what’s best for Dana White’s bottom line.
I have no problems with fighters getting paid more money, they should absolutely make as much as the promotion can handle, but the bottom line is this, you cannot say for certain what the UFC’s bottom line is. You can make educated guesses, but at the end of the day, they are still guesses.
Moreoever, what are fighters getting paid in other lesser promotions? My guess would be that it is not as much as Zuffa fighters? While the overall number may not be as impressive as us MMA supporters would hope, I reckon that it is in step and relative to other promotions.
You can lambast DW or Zuffa all you want, but the reality is, you really don’t know what’s going on. Granted, neither do I, but when you write things like the quote above, I think you’re giving unfair criticism.
As a side note, I imagine most of these guys do pretty well, I would MUCH rather see Zuffa providing health insurance and benefits as opposed to a salary bump.
by WestbergIDFC on Jun 4, 2010 10:37 AM EDT reply actions 6 recs
I totally agree with you.
Michael Rome writes,
I’ve done a lot of research into sports overhead, my guess
His guess. I can sit here and speculate that some MMA fighters in the UFC with 6 – 10 fights under their belt make WAY more than a boxer starting out with the same number of fights. On top of that, boxers DO NOT HAVE the opportunity to compete in an event like UFC 100 and earn a $100k bonus for (Fight of the Night, Submission of the Night or KO of the Night) see Tom Lawlor.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
- - - -
"I'm not afraid to say it: I'm not a brawler, and I'm not a coward. I'm not going to trade punch one-for-one with a guy. I'm going to hit the guy and not get hit. That's a smart way to fight." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 4, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
You’re probably one of those guys who says that a fighter should “just retire”.
And do what? that’s his job for most of his adult life. It’s not just entertainment.
Go to school and get an education? Find a job like most adults, that doesn’t require them to retire at a premature age? Save, and invest their money? I can’t believe that guys who are making approximately 50-60 thousand dollars a year are living a lifestyle that expensive. Listen to what Garcia had to say…
just blew through that money real fast," Garcia said. "Coming from being in the smaller shows and then getting all that money all at once, it seemed like it was never going to run out. I just rode it into the dirt
Maybe instead of blowing through 35 thousand dollars, if he would have invested it, or whatever the case may be, he wouldn’t have to worry about the next pay check.
Maybe instead of blowing through 35 thousand dollars, if he would have invested it, or whatever the case may be, he wouldn’t have to worry about the next pay check.
So that link proves....
that no matter how much money you give someone, willfully stupid people will mismanage it?
People who don’t have money and suddenly get a ton of money lack the perspective necessary to think long-term.
Well thats a pretty general theory. I’m sure there are hundreds of former athletes from the NBA, NFL, MLB ect that came up with nothing and were able to save their money.
His story would prove your theory wrong..
Yes, it’s a bit general/broad, but what I’m saying is Leonard Garcia, our case study, falls into that group. Look at Antoine Walker, or any of the former NFL’ers that are auctioning off super bowl rings to pay their creditors.
The benefit of the players unions in other sports now is that they force their rookies to go to seminars on investment and savings, trying to give them a reality check on how much money $X million really is. MMA doesn’t have that; they have to rely on educating themselves which isn’t always as easy as it sounds.
There are plenty of players who have done fine after being raised impoverished, but it’s not everyone. For every Vlad Guerrero there are two Antoine Walkers or Leonard Garcias.
Wait a second
What does having access to UFC financial records having anything to do with bringing this up for argument. It’s an educated guess with evidence to back it. This 100% certainly rule about the bottom line is a faux pas. How often do you apply this in your life?
a normal person makes around $50k a year and if they work 30 years thats around 1.5 million. if a “normal” fighter makes $30k a fight and fights twice a year for 5 years thats only $300k. then what?
Fighters either need to invest better or get on Dana’s ass. A guy like Mayweather is walking away with $40million a fight and he is just a big shit talker.
The only fighter in the UFC that is getting rich is GSP
Well shit - it's a good thing all boxers are making Mayweather money then!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Jun 4, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I never understand this either. People always bringing up Mayweather’s paydays but never seem to give a thought that there is a whole lot of other boxers making very little. I would like to see a comparison of the average boxer salary compared to the average MMA fighter salary. Then there might be an argument to be made there.
Just BE.
I saw the salaries on a boxing card about a year ago and there were 5-8 fighters making 5K or less and a few making around 1K
by swells2048 on Jun 4, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
so fighters should be paid for 30 years of work, but only be responsible to put in 5 years of work?
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jun 4, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Can I get in on that action?
Pretty please?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
i mean really. why do “famous” people deserve more than you or me? because they’re exceptional at something? i know the greatest forklift operator in the world. he could scratch your back with his forks and not hurt you. but you wouldnt trade your salary for his any day of the week. he’ll work till he dies. why does someone else deserve to retire so young?
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jun 4, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
well without gettin too much into socio-economics...
He doesn’t deserve anything, nor do I. I was just fortunate enough to be born into a family that could afford an education, which he probably wasn’t. No, he doesn’t deserve to work ’til he dies, but then again, how did I deserve this education?
I mean, if you want to count on the hard work of my parents/grandparents, then yeah i deserve it, but just saying.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
i’m not against people making lots of money, and i’m not saying you don’t deserve what you make. everyone has to make the best of their opportunities. you could have decided to be a bum, and you would deserve your minimum wage salary if thats the route you had taken.
i’m arguing against the entitlement side more than “deserve” i guess. you weren’t entitled to anything. you may have had more opportunities than others, but you got the grades, you worked to get where you’re at.
but just because someone is a fighter, does not entitle them to retirement at age 35
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jun 4, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah
Look at Randy!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
your right on...
If they wanted to continue earning money past the age of 35…then get a different career.
Yep. totally agree.
and for that, a rec sir micah.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Deserve's got nothing to do with it...
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
by duck on Jun 4, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent referrence.
"I see him beating Anderson Silva. I see him picking him apart. Him at a 131 years old...(trails off)." - Tito Ortiz on Vitor Belfort at Affliction:DOR
by Rundownloser on Jun 5, 2010 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, if he can get somebody to pay to watch him give forklift backrubs...
Wait – did I already see that on America’s got Talent?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
FAIL
How about the following:
BROCKLESNAR
COULTURE
RAMPAGE
CHUCK
BJ
I’m not saying they make Mayweather $$$, but they’re definitely in the 7 figure range!
by JONBONESJONES79 on Jun 4, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
When did the US inact a law that says No MMA fighter is allowed to get a job after fighting in the UFC?
Fighters make the choice to make MMA a short-term career knowing that it will not last forever, if they don’t have plans for thier post MMA career than thats a them problem not a me problem.
by Grey Suit on Jun 4, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Average income in the US for 2009 was just over $32,000
Looking at the same UFC 104 card that was discussed above…
These people didn’t fair too poorly:
Machida took home $200,000
Shogun got a solid $155,000
Stevenson banked $94,000, including a $47,000 win-bonus
Cain Velasquez received $70,000 (with $35,000 win-bonus)
Ben Rothwell took home $50,000
Gleison Tibau: $38,000 (includes $19,000 win-bonus)
Antoni Hardonk: $76,000 (includes $60,000 Fight of the Night bonus)
Chael Sonnen: $54,000 (includes $27,000 win-bonus)
Jorge Rivera: $36,000 (includes $18,000 win-bonus)
Stefan Struve $74,000 (includes $7,000 win-bonus and $60,000 Submission of the Night bonus)
those numbers are all GROSS not net
Fighters are independent contractors, that means they have to pay their cornermen, their trainers, their gym, their coaches, their nutritionists, their manager, their agent, etc etc etc
They’re probably taking home 40% of those numbers.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Bu how much more do they get in sponsorship money?
by Grey Suit on Jun 4, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
shhhhh, they don’t like to talk about additional revenue.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jun 4, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Fighting is great for additional revenue
Sponsors, Gyms, Seminars, Commentating, after party attendance. Its not nothing. If a fighter can’t leverage his UFC brand to make additional money that is his problem.
It's not as great as you think.
Most sponsors work on a fight-by-fight basis, not a salary. So when Lyoto was injured for 9 months after Shogun whipped that ass the first time, he got zero pay.
The fighters with smart management (which is shockingly few and far between) get at least the primary sponsor to pay salary over a time frame with a guarantee of x many fights and work some bonuses in. Royalties are usually a pittance, not because of low percentages, but the market is too small to provide a ton of sales per fighter per shirt. Many of the major brands avoid the salary and beef up the royalties to trick the fighters into thinking they have a good deal. The best sponsors will do a salary with fight bonuses, but those are rare, hard to get, and few managers know well enough to aim for that.
And that’s all assuming the fighters aren’t getting fucked by their management and/or trainers. Which also happens.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
A pattern
Most of that has nothing to do with the UFC and what they pay.
BTW, just noticed your quote. Never thought i’d find another XKCD fan in the MMA fandom.
"Never thought i’d find another XKCD fan in the MMA fandom."
Count me in, too.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that fighters need to be entrepeanurs
Obviously there is evidence they aren’t. A lot of them squander their money much less leverage their brand to make more, but my point is that being in the UFC can lead to profitability if a fighter leverages it correctly.
I don’t know what that means about a value judgement with what the UFC pays them, I’m only saying that some fighters need to wisen up.
So fighter shouldn’t only train every waking minute to compete at their optimum level, but should be expected to have a strong background in accounting, business law, and self-promotion. And I thought they all wanted to be fucking fighters?
And that’s all assuming the fighters aren’t getting fucked by their management
I think this played a part in my response.
which they wouldn't be
if they got a good manger. If they can’t manage that much, they have bigger problems.
You work on the assumption that it's easy to do in MMA.
Most managers are fighters who either washed up or couldn’t cut it, and they found a way to stay in the industry despite marginal business knowledge. Either that or they are trainers who have a trusting relationship with their student, but don’t have the business savy to really leverage anything properly.
The good managers are making big dollars on royalties in the NFL. In fact, one of the most successful managers (and easily one of the most professional) in MMA is a former NFL manager who crossed over. Because he grew in an established industry and truly mastered the trade, he’s picked up more high level fighters than anybody else in the sport. He was ranked one of the top 10 most powerful men in MMA two years ago, I shouldn’t have to name him.
Now, aside from him, I can think of two other very good managers in the sport. Neither of which will likely be names that leap to your mind.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jun 4, 2010 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Shari Spencer?
This is an interesting point though. And one that if it really is an issue and i’ll take your word for it, will organically handle itself as the sport grows. As the UFC vaults the sport to greater and greater heights the high-powered quick maneuvering businessmen will come a knocking as more and more money is available to be made.
Shari Spencer is indeed one of the two, well played.
She knew she had something special with GSP and has done an fan-fucking-tastic job with him. You’re a true hardcore to pull that name out, kudos. The other person I have in mind is less obvious though, mostly for things that aren’t common knowledge. One of the most caring people in the sport though.
You’re right, the amateurism problem is something that will be fixed organically, but it could be expedited artificially as well. Only problem is the UFC reaps rewards from poor management, and has worked to get between fighters and strong management on more than one occasion. It’s in their interest to.
But in the end, yes, as the sport grows so will the profit for managers, and greater talent will arise.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jun 4, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
pdl thats not how it work at all for a fighter the staus like Lyoto has. His sponsors will have him show up at Seminars, Store openings, all kinds of shit like that and he gets paid for it all. Alot of fighters make more now from Gym openings, Seminars, coaching other fighters, etc then they do fighting today.
Yeah... that's just not true.
Appearances are usually negotiated in as part of a contract when dealing with a sponsor and are required during the fulfillment of the contract, not extra pay. Things like gym openings and paid seminars are negotiated between a manager and the gym, sponsors rarely have anything to do with it.
Lyoto wasn’t getting anything from Silver Star, and I don’t think he got more than a few purple hats and a couple 12 packs of cans from Bony. He was just one example of a trend anyways.
Unless you have some recent info directly from him and his camp, then you’re absolutely wrong.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jun 4, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
OK...
So they take home 40% of that money…and they probably fight 3 times a year, so…
Tibau makes $38,000 @ 40%= $15,200
Then $15,200 × 3 fights = $45,600
So he makes approximately 45 grand a year, then you add in the Sponsership money, and money for seminars that they may host at a gym….
= Not a bad life.
The average income stat is gross not net as well.
So what’s your point?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Jun 4, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Exactly.
I was just going to say that. All income stats are based on gross and we have no way of calculating the average persons overhead to come up with a net figure.
by Brandon Starr on Jun 4, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
fordracingguru,
You omit the fact that Floyd Mayweather has over 90 amateur fights and well over 30 professional fights before he saw HUGE paydays.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
- - - -
"I'm not afraid to say it: I'm not a brawler, and I'm not a coward. I'm not going to trade punch one-for-one with a guy. I'm going to hit the guy and not get hit. That's a smart way to fight." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 4, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But also that most of those other 120 fighters he fought don't make diddly.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I really doubt amateur boxers make ANYTHING. The purse for boxers just beginning their careers without any name value (Olympics or Golden Gloves) is probably less than an MMA fighter in the UFC. At least an MMA fighter in the UFC has the potential to win a fight BONUS.
There’s a HUGE potential to earn something in the UFC. It’s a dog-eat-dog world in boxing.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
- - - -
"I'm not afraid to say it: I'm not a brawler, and I'm not a coward. I'm not going to trade punch one-for-one with a guy. I'm going to hit the guy and not get hit. That's a smart way to fight." - GSP
by VeeisAnimated on Jun 6, 2010 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
As a nice squishy liberal, I hate to say this...
…but isn’t that something the market will figure out? I mean, if there’s money being left on the table that could be going to fighters, won’t other promotions be able to easily double their fighter salaries and pick up the good guys?
Or are we going to claim that the UFC has some kind of special first actor mojo that prevents all that?
(Not to mention the fact that these numbers are all guessesestimates and may or not reflect reality…)
To be clear: I’d like to see fighters making more, but I can’t get upset at the UFC when they appear to have no trouble signing fighters at all talent/fame/career levels day in and day out. If this were such a raw deal, how would they do that?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Jun 4, 2010 10:40 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I’m a libertarian and tend to share your instincts. The only thing to think about is whether the UFC’s dominance is an antitrust issue. There are strong arguments out there that a variety of tactics they use to compete, most of which go unreported (such as pressuring sponsors not to work with competitors or threatening to blackball) are antitrust violations, and the reason the market can’t work is there’s an illegal monopolist on top of it.
I’m not saying I buy the case, but something like the threat to fighters over joining EA looks like a clear violation of antitrust law to me.
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sort-of
For example, the top fighters are likely to be in the UFC because the UFC will PAY for those fighters. The problem is the middle to low fighters on the UFC’s rosters. Those fighters are unlikely to get a decent raise from other promotions (they’re not worth it for low-profit promotions) and even a small raise is likely to be rejected in favor of the greater publicity the UFC provides compared to other promotions.
so Jemaleddin, the UFC has no problem signing people at all career levels because if their pay level is even COMPARABLE to that of lower promotions, its more beneficial for a fighter to take the UFC deal than some other deal due to the greater publicity..
Well Jemaleddin
If you’re going by a liberal economics interpretation instead of what politics has equated liberalism too, then that’s correct. Liberal economics supports open markets and such, the invisible hand, yadda yadda.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I know - but you have to phrase these things for the crowd
My wife is a Hopkins Economist. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
holy shit
I also attended that fine university. I was econ but switched to international relations and spanish.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, she's not a student.
She’s faculty.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I'm reminded of Dominick Cruz's one-room apartment right now.
I know the UFC’s money helps grease the wheels of the sport as a whole, but these fighters need looking after. I wonder how many blow their money like Garcia did? Who won’t have decent medical coverage later in life? The best thing about having an accountant for my father is learning to keep track of every last dollar towards something useful.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2010 10:41 AM EDT reply actions
when a fighter retires @ 30-35 having only made $30k/year, i have a hard time feeling like they deserve to be set for life because they chose a certain career path. get a job when you’re done fighting, i’ll be working till i’m 70 – 75 (social security is DEAD), why are they entitled to be finished working at such a young age?
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
by MicahW on Jun 4, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Good point
They know the risks of being a fighter and one of those at this time is long term financial stability. Hopefully they are smart, start a gym or can do commentary. If the sport continues to grow there will be more opportunity on ESPN/Fox/CBS, etc to make money post career.
i’m not wishing anybody in the world ill will. but life is set up to where MOST people work till 55+. but atheletes & movie stars “deserve” so much money that our entire life earnings should be put to shame by what they make in their 5 – 10 year career? WHY?!
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
because people spent that money
the money we spend on watching UFC or movies will go to some one. The entertainment and sports industry standard is for 20% of that to go to talent — who are the primary reason we are spending the money in the first place — the UFC appears to be paying 1/2 that rate.
Why should faceless corporate executives get that money instead of the talent?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jun 4, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would argue that 20% would be low. Take UFC 114 for example. If it did 900,000 ppv buys that would mean with gate that it brought in somewhere in the neighborhood of $27 million for the UFC. That is not including foreign rights, merchandise, video games, Spike rebroadcasts, DVD sales, etc. And what was Zuffa’s expenses? According to Michael’s estimates $6 mil max plus payroll. So with Rashad making $1 mil, Rampage $2 mil, and everyone else no more than $2 mil, that means the UFC walked away with $17 mil + so we could watch Rampage vs Evans. Think about it: we spent out money specifically to watch these two men fight, but 60% of the money went to a small group of men who weren’t fighting. If no one wants the fighters to get the money why aren’t they demanding prices to go down?
by John Nash on Jun 4, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
/\ this
but everyone loves Dana since he gives the big “Do you want to be a fucking fighter?” speech.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
No. I want to be a fucking promoter.
by John Nash on Jun 4, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I've worked on the back end of fight promotion.
And dude, you do not want to be a fucking promoter.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
it's true
lol.
unless you’re zuffa or K-1 or golden boy or mayweather you don’t want to be a promoter either.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
100% agree with you there. This is the career path they chose. While I would like to see fighters get paid more, considering they are fighting for our entertainment, most people have to work until they’re 65-70 at least. In Canada, less than 20% of employers provide a real pension plan, and none of those pension plans are guaranteed. Making 30-35K a year – that’s what most of my clients are making now, and they’d be lucky if their pay manages to even remotely keep up with inflation. Most people’s careers don’t lead to a path where they have the potential to be rich and famous. Fighters need to be paid more. So do most people. Welcome to the club.
I want fighters to get paid more because in general I want everyone to be paid more in principle, but we all know the world doesn’t work that way. What these fighters need are good financial planners.
by pud333 on Jun 4, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I'm not saying they deserve to be set for life
I’m just trying to point out what a brief window of earning opportunity they have as fighters.
Not to mention the fact that fighting can cut into education and training opportunities as well as leaving a fighter with serious injuries.
It’s one thing to jump careers if you’re college educated, relatively young, etc etc but if you’re old and injured and untrained, it’s pretty hard.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
thats the risk of going for a dream. if we took the risk out of going for your dream, no one would actually work.
if they want more money, they need to hold out for more when they sign a contract. if they’re scared someone else would take their spot, they need to decide if this is the right career path for them.
I'm old school hating Lesnar, I've been hating Lesnar since '08
do you want to see the best athletes in the world in MMA or not?
that’s really the question.
Right now the NFL and NBA and boxing are far far more attractive career options.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Not if you don't get out of college
Which is where most of the hopefuls get stuck in those sports.
Its not like many college basketball players leave with an education
This is silly
A kid doesn’t want to be a pro athlete in any one particular sport because it’s a more attractive career option. If that were the case the NFL would fold. Their contracts aren’t even guaranteed!
by Goonisis on Jun 4, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Seriously
The average NFL player’s career is 3.5 years, and those guys aren’t making millions.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Jun 4, 2010 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
it's still way more money than the average heavyweight MMA fighter
or even the average UFC heavyweight.
Plus they have a union, a pension, a health care plan, etc etc.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The NFL has also been around for almost a century
They’ve had time to develop all of those things, on top of an infrastructure that gets kids 6-7 year old started on the sport.
I’m going to guess if you look at where the UFC is right now relative to where the NFL was at the same stage in it’s development, the UFC is light years ahead. You can’t put the horse in front of the cart no matter how fast mma is growing.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Jun 4, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Another thing on this point...
NFL retired players are in a BIND because they dont have health insurance and many of them were not making the Millions of dollars as many are today… The million dollar athlete started in the 80s after decades of being underpaid…. Just give MMA some time and the fighters will rake in more and more money!!!
The 53rd player on the NFL bench is making $300k per year. He’s also not paying expenses for training, equipment, medical, etc. while employed.
But who's fault is that?
Fighters make their choice. A lot of them choose not to get that education because they’re naive enough to think that fame and fortune awaits them in the cage. And then when that dream fails them they hold on way to long and leave a physical wreck.
The sport is still in its infancy. Players in the early days of other mainstream sports also had it tough. If the UFC does expand globally the way they want then 10% is laughable, but as of now I believe this is the way it has to be.
With 100 events a year it would be easier to pay the fighters what they need to be paid.
Look at what other fighters make. it is far less than what the ufc offers to a lot more fighters than other organizations. Why get made at the ufc for keeping there cost low? Yes i care about the fights and they need to make a living, but they have to negotiate what they think they are worth.
Nobody is forcing them to fight. If they dont like what the market is offering then dont fight. Not that hard.
Didn’t the UFC go over money management at their fighter summit last year? I think I remember some of the fighters talking about it.
I think it is also important to note that many of the fighters start gyms. Those gyms will hopefully be their life line after retirement. And due to the UFC popularity and the exposure they get the better for their gym.
To me salaries for the undercard guys, and medical benefits are the big things. Page making an estimated $2 million for his last fight is fine
estimations estimations...
no mention of the cost of advertising, no mention of the back end points that pay the upper tier fighters the majority of their money. at this point we’re really just guessing and those guesses are always going to be biased towards giving the fighters more money.
lots of us work as contractors, job to job, paycheck to paycheck. we all have to budget money based on when we hope our next job will be. but most of us don’t have ten grand plus a month to allocate like garcia did. most of us consider ourselves damn lucky to make a tenth of that. zuffa pays more fighters more money than any other group or org in the world. are they trying to make a profit? of course, but if a business model can be successful treating the fighters better, i have no doubt someone will come along and steal zuffa’s fighters away with their bigger paychecks. but i don’t think that will happen any time soon.
don’t try to make me pity a guy who blew a 35 thousand dollar check. not when i’m struggling to make a few hundred a week. fuck you and fuck leonard garcia. if he finds himself poor and punch drunk ten years from now he has no one to blame but himself.
by K Krush on Jun 4, 2010 10:49 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
you were fine up until the "fuck Leonard Garcia" part
the guy just put on one of the best fights in MMA history.
you’re banned.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Dang.
Dear K Krush,
Next time try something like this:
“It’s hard to feel sorry about a guy not having any money when he admits that he blew a great deal of it on stupid shit.”
Jemal
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
You may not like his last line… but that’s exactly how a consumer thinks. Consumers dont give a fuck about anyone but themselves and saying “what’s good for the fighters is good for the sport” is, one: not true, and two: nobody cares. If you really care pay your garbage man a couple thousand extra this week because he surely works harder and makes way less money than the average UFC fighter. You wont pay him because you dont give a shit either when it comes down to it.
Dont fight reality.
by mmalogic on Jun 4, 2010 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Wow!
“fuck you and fuck leonard garcia
"
While that comment was not as eloquent as it could’ve been, to ban him for that seems highly unreasonable.
no fighter bashing or insulting the staff is one of our main rules
that’s pretty much the definition of both.
BE is my house. My rules.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Fans need to realize that what is best for the fighters is what’s best for the sport and the fans. Not what’s best for Dana White’s bottom line.
Ahh why? This is a totally unsubstantiated claim? I think ultimately fighters making money will mean better training camps and better athletes coming into the sport.
At the same time though, labor disputes and weak promotions aren’t good for the promotion either.
To be honest I’d rather have a one UFC and poorer fighters than lots of Afflictions and richer fighters.
This is why UFC domination is a good thing Nate
Even if right now the UFC is being too greedy with the revenue, which is just speculation and conjecture since we don’t actually know what a UFC fighter actually makes when considering locker room bonuses and what not (most fighters seem pretty happy to me though), the fact is, what’s good for the UFC is what’s good for MMA. The bigger the UFC gets, the sport it promotes will grow hand and hand. As more money gets into MMA these fighters will be just fine. It will happen organically.
It’s not really conjecture if you take the time to look into the expense of being a fighter and what these guys actually make. How wealthy do you think Gray Maynard, top 5 lightweight is after his training camp expenses? Do you think his net income is above the poverty line after those expenses?
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
that’s a good question. I’d like to see how the financials work for Maynard, if we had access to those numbers.
He made 44K from his fights in 2009 (20K in his win over Miller and 24K in his win over Huerta) He made 40K in his win over Nate but that was in 2010.
My understanding is he is a trainer at Xtreme Couture and gets paid and also sponsorships…Not sure what those numbers are.
I know a top level fighter
who even after sponsorships and running his own gym is barely above the poverty line. Zuffa fighter, spends responsibly, former top p4p. And the dude just scrapes by. Can hardly afford his training camps.
Then again, there are guys like Diego who are gonna be broke because they make themselves broke.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
This part is just local common knowledge;
Up until about 6 weeks before the Hathaway fight, he was out in clubs just about every night of the week buying drinks for anybody who bothered to tag along. Lots of club owners in Pacific Beach were seeing him drop over 1k in a night.
There’s a lot more to it that, out of professional courtesy and responsibility, I will not air in public. If you’re just curious, we can talk via email. Off the record, of course. ( =
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
If it’s not out of line and you don’t mind revealing it, how do you know all this? What’s your connection to MMA? Just curious.
I prefer to not go into detail
as I am pretty outspoken here and don’t want my opinions to be reflected upon any companies, promotions, individuals, or sponsors I have worked with/for. I think Luke is the only person on here who I’ve told, and that was since I met him in person. I’m sure you understand.
Just for a vague description: I work as a professional within the MMA industry, and have done so in more than one capacity. Through that, I’ve become friends with fighters, refs, and others who love the sport. Not to create a blanket statement since there are some absolute shitheels anywhere you go, but lots of these people are the absolute salt of the earth.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Jun 4, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I love how “salt of the earth” means they’re good people, but “salting the earth” was a brutal tactic from the Roman military. Interesting language use there…
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you know the answer to that: they aren’t shitforce fighters. Those fighters are not under contract to Strikeforce or shitforce or whatever you want to call them. All the prelims on Challlenger cards are a one-time amateur bout contract.
But if you want to do comparisons how about comparing a percentage of the revenue the fighters on a Strikeforce card make compared to that of a UFC. I am willing to wager you that Strikeforce’s pay take up a much higher percentage of the revenue than the UFC.
what these guys actually make
That’s the thing. Do you know? Do you have the hard numbers? Because i don’t.
The expenses of a whole training camp are a whole different matter altogether as well though, aren’t they? A fighter with even a tiny bit of name value should be able to set up arrangements with sponsors and even the gyms themselves to have that taken care of.
Also how much more does he get from his sponsors for being on a UFC card
than he would if he was fighting for someone like Bellator.
Yes I think it is
Maybe not too much just off the salary. But off of working at Xtreme Couture, sponsorships, etc. I think he does pretty well.
Above the poverty line? Yes fighters who make over $10,830 before they pay taxes (and if this is all they make they will get some taxes back) are living above the poverty line.
Come on. Your argument for better pay would be better received if the ploy of painting the fighters as sympathetic and the promotor as evil.
Fighters are paid what the market will bear. I trade commodities for a living and we have a saying, the most important trade you make is the one before you start your job, its the contract you negotiate. So long as there are PPV points contracts out there, fighters can make what they are worth, but they have to negotiate for it first. Whining about it does nothing.
Fans need to realize that what is best for the fighters is what’s best for the sport and the fans. Not what’s best for Dana White’s bottom line.
So should we boycot t UFC PPVs? I don’t get what the message is here.
by Grey Suit on Jun 4, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The message here is...
There hasn’t been an article trashing Dana / Zuffa for at least a few hours now…
by truck on Jun 4, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I do hope that fighters salaries keep going up and up, but just the beginning of the Leonard Garcia bit shows that it’s more about fighters learning how to manage their finances. Just because he blew through his money with unecessary purchases doesn’t mean he should be paid more, because in all likelyhood the same would be done with that. That is a personal responsibility to the fighters, not the organizations paying them. Just take a look at boxing and there stories of millionaires who wasted it.
Since 2005 and the MMA Boom here in the United States I actually like the UFC’s gradual rise in fighter salary. Yes, there are still some prospects and TUF show members getting paid little to show, but we also have heard and know about the lockerroom bonuses, etc that aren’t accounted for in the salary reports. I’m glad there is a gradual rise to these because it secures the future of the promotion they are fighting in and not just giving loads of money to the individuals, which if some don’t like to admit it is good for the sport – just look at any other successful “league”.
by ACCBiggz on Jun 4, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Granted, these examples are from back in the day...
but if you compare what MMA athletes get paid in the relative “age” of their sport to say baseball, nfl, etc they are doing a lot better than many sports in their infancy. The entire “black sox” scandal was due to a crooked owner refusing to pay his players a living wage. And being a Baltimore Colts fan, it was terrible seeing a broken down Johny U (the man could barely use his hands) living off his tiny pension and promotional bits. The man got paid nothing compared to what athletes get paid today and he invented the timing route and the 2 minute drill.
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace"
by UMBC Oriole fan on Jun 4, 2010 11:06 AM EDT reply actions
I don’t think the comparison fully applies. If you are computer programmer or bio-engineer does that mean you compare your salary to factory workers of 1910? Both relatively new professions but salary derived from modern context and market. Of course the issue with MMA salaries isn’t that it is new but currently operates under the market reality that it’s monopolized by one company.
You have to remember that LeBron James, Roger Federer, Tony Stewart, and Peyton Manning don’t make their living playing a sport. They make their living being popular enough to rake in endorsement money.
You misunderstand. Top athletes make more money off sponsorships and endorsments than they do actually playing the sport.
by sadface on Jun 4, 2010 12:51 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
And you’re missing the point that Manning, Lebron et al make millions from the sport they play.
by Worldisart on Jun 4, 2010 1:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What is the issue?
They make millions from the sport they play. May not be their entire fortune but its a chunk of it.
by Body Triangle on Jun 4, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't forced into my job and I knew what the benefits and pay were when I willingly took the job.
For me it’s about perspective. It’s not hard for me to compare the salaries for fighters 5 years ago in the UFC to where they are today. Over that time there appears to be a steady climb in fighter pay. So I’m fine with the way things are progressing.
Do I wish fighters had full time health care… you bet I do. But there is a lot of people working jobs right now that aren’t being given full time health care benefits. I wish those people could get it too.
Bottom line to me is there isn’t any fighter in the UFC that didn’t choose to be there. If they don’t like the pay or the level of benefits they are getting… get a different job that meets those needs. That is what I would do.
Just BE.
You won't ever see a big push for fighter pay.
At least not by the general public. Most people have to work until their 60’s and 70’s, and don’t have the opportunity, however slim it is, to retire early or get rich and famous. The only way you’ll see fighters start to get paid substantially better or treated better, is if a) A fighter’s union is created, but that’s hopeless so long as the top guys don’t give a shit. b) There is a general public outcry big enough to spur some sort of change. Which you won’t see, cause the average Joe is also underpaid and not treated as well as he would like, so their first response to a woe-is-me fighter would be, “Cry me a fucking river.”
I don’t mean to be crass, but it is what it is.
Reminds me of a saying
I heard this years ago and when I hear people crying poor for fighters it seems appropriate:
They want sympathy?
Get a dictionary and look between shit and syphilis.
I disagree. While I think undercard fighters making less than 10k guaranteed isn’t enough, top level fighters making 500k is about where it should be for a while. The thing is, once fighters start making big money, you’ll have something similar to boxing where fighters hand pick their opponents and the fights you want to see won’t ever happen. The whole “whoever that UFC wants me to fight next, that’s who I’ll fight” will be gone. There’s a reason why MMA tends to put on fights people want to see without much trouble and on the rare occasion boxing does, it takes like 2 years with a lot of dragging of the feet.
Zuffa owes $450,000,000 as of January this year
$425,000,000 (Expansion, PRIDE, WFA Purchases etc) due 2015
$25,000,000 (Refinancing) due 2012
These debts have to be paid.
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Credit Report
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Zuffa currently has a BB- credit rating for futher info
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And the reason is due to event risk. Zuffa’s majority revenue stream are its PPV shows. When evaluating a company’s credit worthiness revenues from on-going operations are golden, revenues from one-time events are discounted. In other words no promoter will ever get a AA++ credit rating, its the nature of the business.
Zuffa’s debt is really a nonissue, it is appropriate for the size of their business and has yet to encumber any of their on-going operations.
New dead horse please.
which is why they had to bring in the Abu Dhabi investors
they are cash strapped.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Given the fact that they are in a debt situation,
increasing fighter salaries right now will not help them and it won’t help anyone in the long run if they go under. They are probably not allowed to increase fighter salalries as a drastic percentage without their lenders approval anyways. Salaries have increased with time and will continue to do so. They aren’t appauling now though. I don’t see what the fuss is about.
again the fighters
aren’t responsible for Zuffa’s decisions to go into debt.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
You can switch that around pretty easily...
again Zuffa isn’t responsible for the fighters decisions to go into debt.
by truck on Jun 4, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
exactly
but you guys won’t even hold Zuffa to the same standard you hold the fighters to.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Zuffa is going into debt
to create a better infrastructure for the sport in new places to grow the sport. This potentially greatly helps the UFC, but also the fighters in the long run. More events = more money = more fighers = more trainers and so on. They are laying the ground work for the future.
Yes, this is probably screwing the mid-low level fighters right now, but this happens in every sport. The guys who went first and got a sport off the ground never reap the benefits that the athletes who play now receive. But in the long run it should pay off for everybody.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Jun 4, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Corporate debt and person debt are apples and oranges. I’d buy a Kid Nate guide to Judo Chops, but would pass on Nate’s business handbook.
Kid Nate is so astute he’s arguing that Zuffa will be out of business in 5 years and in the same breath he’s arguing that it should double it’s payroll… Tito Ortiz can’t make as much sense as this.
you are the king of putting words in my mouth
I said “there is a CHANCE” that Zuffa could go bankrupt in 5 years.
I’ve seen more than one Black Swan in my day and Zuffa could easily run into a flock of them.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Agreed
But you are trying to argue that the athletes interests are also the best interests of the sport and that is not true.
Zuffa most certainly could pay the fighters more. A lot more. But in order to do so they would have to cut back on their investment in the future of the sport. That is NOT in the best interest in the sport.
we'll see
i personally don’t think Zuffa is the best steward of the sport. I think there’s a very good chance that Zuffa is busted in five years.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
lol
rec’d
follow me twitter.com/GotaHemmi
by Brian Hemminger on Jun 5, 2010 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions
This
was my reaction when Overeem blasted through Rogers and I thought of Logic’s comment about throwing 25k on him because it was a SURE THING
by TennesseeTopTeam on Jun 4, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you think this?
Honest question. I know they are in major debt, but they seem to have a pretty healthy influx of cash coming in.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Jun 4, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
one more massive economic downturn
could kill them. and i don’t see anyone in the world who’s doing anything to prevent another 2008.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Wasn't 2008 a year of huge growth for the UFC?
UFC 91 and UFC 92 are sill two of the companies biggest events to date.
but that's also the year that Station Casinos
went broke. And the money that built the UFC came from Station > Fertittas > UFC. There’s no more sugar daddy in Vegas for Zuffa. Hence the quest for a new sugar daddy in Abu Dhabi.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Zuffa is self sufficent in terms of revenue.
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree, but we can turn this argument around.
They still have plenty of equity to unload for funding if they need it and cash flows were resilient even during the worst recession of our lifetimes. Sure we could have a double dip recession and we can argue about the severity, but unless we have a situation where most business and huge amounts of capital are wiped out Zuffa will continue to support itself and even if they struggle with Debt they can find another equity partner.
Also doesn’t this logic also justify why Zuffa has to screw fighters? If their financial situation is so precarious they need every dollar they can get. Zuffa imploding would set the sport back 10 years so how on earth would that be good for the sport
by SES 84 on Jun 4, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Something about that makes sense to me.
It really hurts the argument that Zuffa should be paying fighters way more if they are in such a precarious situation that there is a very good chance they could be out of business in five years.
I mean if I thought there was a pretty good chance that Zuffa would collapse in five years I don’t think I could make the argument that they should be paying out more money. I think my argument would be they need to be saving money to protect themselves against another potential downturn.
Just BE.
Sugar Daddy? everyone keeps thinking Zuffa sold because the Fertitta’s needed the money because of the trouble with station.
Frank bought a 30 million dollar beach house after the news of stations troubles and way before the stake in Zuffa was sold. If the fertittas needed money to save station why would Frank buy a 30m house?
The fertittitas have over a billion dollars in liquid assets… they can build a tower, fill it up with cash and swim in it like scrooge mcduck.
Abu Dhabi is a strategic move. Overseas there are lots of big players with entrentched interests like Mcmahon, boxing promoters, the yakuza.
It’s hard to overcome… but when you have Abu Dhabi it’s like walking around with brock lesnar in the bar down the street. People stop fucking with you.
well I hope they enjoy
when the Arab Brock Lesnar takes them out in the desert and runs them over with an SUV.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I’m not here to argue much of anything being discussed, but anyone who thinks the sheiks of Abu Dhabi are smart, self-made businessmen is an absolute clown. We’re talking about people living in mud huts until the 1970s until oil money bailed them out, entrenched tribal power and undermined any hope for meaningful democracy.
Are they rich? Sure, but so are rednecks who win scratch-off tickets. They got lucky with the lottery. These aren’t natural born winners by any measurement.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Let’s just ease off the next fighter or promotor to make an off-color comment about another race of people, eh?
And I know my history of the region, the 17 sword scars the first king of Saudi Arabia showed FDR when they met from the battles he had partaken in to create his kingdom. Your comments aren’t without any merit, but to write off an entire area as all rednecks, etc is quite an overreaching statement. There are some brilliant minds in the middle east and some actually have done quite well for themselves through their ability to leverage the natural assets they have.
My mother is from Lebanon
This isn’t racial and I owe the people of the UAE nothing but my honesty.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Fine, then your honesty is offensive. Your right to free speech, not a crowded theater.
Just live and let live next time a fighter, promoter, etc says something you find offensive. I know some very sharp businessmen in the oil business. I have also worked in the US and Canadian oil business and trust me the UAE aren’t the morons you are calling them.
I've lobbied for the oil business
Of course there are bright people in oil. Who said their wasn’t?
The sheiks of Abu Dhabi – and that’s who i am talking about – are not self-made. They got incredibly, incredibly lucky. They are not revolutionary businessmen who’ve made fortunes from scratch. They are precisely the opposite.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Not to be offensive in any way to your mother or her heritage, but isn’t being from Lebanon and being from the UAE like being from Montana vs. Florida. Same general region of the world, but distinctly different in many ways. Just saying the Mediterrian coast and the Arabian Peninsula are apples and oranges.
And there are plenty of brilliant minds in the middle east
But none of them historically have come from the UAE. Baghdad was the literary center for a time and Cairo and Alexandria have been deep commerce centers. I’ve been to all of these places. I know my history. The UAE’s are the nouveau-riche en la rue.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
You’re talking old school… Those sheep herders in the 70’s had kids.. and those kids went to the top schools, and cut there teeth with business projects since they were sucking their momma’s teet. They are now running shit… they’re smart enough to know that they dont know everything and that’s why they invest in smart companies like Zuffa.
The smartest of them are in Abu Dhabi… Sheikh Tahnoon is no dummy. He’s got a sick protfolio. You’re talking of stereotypes and stuff you see on youtube.
Regardless, what they have is leverage and that’s all Zuffa needs. Zuffa already has the brains… it just needed the international muscle. Now just get out of the way and put kid nate on a leash.
Well put. I met oil services representatives who ran circles around their Canadian counterparts that I worked with. I suppose I could conclude that all Canadian are morons and all UAE oil reps are pimps, but that would be a rash generalization, something I thought we should avoid.
Luke's original comment refers specifically and solely to the rulers of Abu Dhabi
aka the investors of the UFC. He’s not talking about the people of the UAE. You’re conflating his statement in a gross manner.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
When u describe “a bunch of people living in mud huts up until 40 years ago” it goes beyond a specific critic of their business acumen. Insulting a general group of people through ad hominem attacks is something worth noting as offensive.
I’m no conflating anything. Hell the comment started with an ad hominem attack on a reader who might actually disagree. Its the pattern of resorting to ad hominem attacks on commentators who simply have different opinions that gets old man.
except that it's literally true
the tribespeople in that area were living in mud huts 70 years ago.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
example:
Former Governer Pataki has no fucking clue what MMA stands for or what it is… yet somehow all of sudden there’s an article of support.
What pataki has is a consulting company and guess who one of it’s clients are?
How much money do you think Abu Dhabi is investing in china? South Korea? India? Brazil? and every other emerging market…
Yakuza in Japan and Mcmahon in the EU are being neutralized as we speak.
the value these “ragheads/rednecks” – as you’d like to portray them – bring to the table is such that Zuffa could have given them 9 figures AND the stake in the company and it would still be ahead.
Maybe the deal make sense
I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’m just not going to portray these sheiks as savvy businessmen. They’re not.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
I wasnt arguing that they were savvy (although I could)… Zuffa is Savvy enough… I was arguing that they have resources, leverage and contacts Zuffa or any company could only dream about.
They were savvy enough to realize that this is a UFC wave and the best way to make money was to ride it rather than all these other “geniuses” who thought they could compete.
They were savvy enough to play their cards right during the economic meltdown whereas europe is burning. They are the larget oil producer yet they have the largest cash reserves in a buyers market… that’s usually called genius.
That is because they are the largest liquified natural gas producer in the world as of 2 years ago. So they have more than just oil revenues. Look at those moron businessmen diversifying their revenue streams….
lol
now you’re saying that their luck in “owning” huge mineral deposits somehow makes them savvy businessmen. geesh.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
No dumbass, their ability to extract a resource and process it cheaper than anyone else. Are you familiar with LNG, the technology involved, the size of the operation the UAE undertook 5 years ago.
We have more NG in North America than the UAE has, yet they have financed, installed, and dispatched the technology to monetize their resources in an area we have not fully.
So yeah, I consider someone that actually extracts their huge “luck” instead of being the one that imports it.
Geeze
"Justice is the whim of a judge, check his chest density
It leaves much room for error, and the rest left to destiny."
-Sage Francis
by DamnSevern on Jun 4, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Would you like to lay money on that?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Fighter Pay has increased massively under Zuffa despite the debt take Rich Franklin as an example
UFC 44:
$10,000 ($5,000 for fighting; $5,000 win bonus)
UFC 88:
$100,000 ($50,000 for show and $50,000 win bonus)
If your payrise is 20% per year your doing well
GSP
UFC 46:
$6,000 ($3,000 for fighting; $3,000 win bonus)
UFC 100:
$400,000 ($200,000 for fighting; $200,000 win bonus)
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
GSP and Franklin are stars, of course they’re getting paid well. How about the guys who fight in the prelims and take home 3K (+3k win bonus)?
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jun 4, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
They’re either not very good or on their way to making more money. Like a AAA baseball player.
by Goonisis on Jun 4, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The lowest Paid fighter at 114 was Jesse Forbes at $5,000
He also recieved several thousand dollars in sponsorship pay.
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
These guys are taking a shot at being stars
They don’t get paid a lot, but they are taking a shot at being GSP. Its their choice to participate in the MMA lotto.
Zuffa's Pre-Tax Profit in 2007 was $76,000,000 on $190,000,000 of revenue
The Low mark for Zuffa’s PPV revenue last year was $349,000,000 the high about $365,000,000.
by Mat Parker 116 on Jun 4, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d rather Zuffa continue to spend their money growing the sport by expanding it to other countries and working lobbies to get MMA sanctioned everywhere in the US instead of spending it to give six figure (not counting endorsements and other monies made) making athletes a little bigger cut.
I can understand a fighter having difficulty managing money like that; but giving them more of it won’t solve the mismanagement issue. Even I have issues with that working contract to contract where one month I make plenty of money and the next I make hardly any and I have to not blow through it and run out and buy corvettes.
I’d rather Zuffa continue to spend their money growing the sport by expanding it to other countries and working lobbies to get MMA sanctioned everywhere in the US instead of spending it to give six figure (not counting endorsements and other monies made) making athletes a little bigger cut.
Unless they are bribing the shat out of politicians what percentage of their income do you think goes to getting places sanctioned? That card gets way over played all the time.
Lobbying kinda is like bribing I guess; but money does have to be spent on staff and other things like that when working to get things changed. But that comment was kinda tacked onto the more important comment I made that you decided to ignore in your quote…
They spend a shit ton of money opening up offices like they are in Canada and eventually other markets hopefully. And like I said, I’d rather them spend that money on growing the sport internationally, than just giving a six figure fighter another ten or twenty grand a year.
Lobbying
Is nothing like bribing. It’s actually necessary for democracy to thrive. As a guy who has been a lobbyist and never done an unethical act in the course of that job, I can assure you what I am saying it’s true. The primary role lobbyists play is informally educating lawmakers and key issues and concerns of their constituents. Don’t believe me? Ask their staffers. These are all public numbers.
Free lunches and car trips are fun, but I’ve worked with a lot of legislators who never voted the way my clients wanted them to even after several fund raisers. Attacking lobbyists is just a convenient scapegoat for frustration which is more caused by political inertia which is itself caused by structural impediments to change in our federal system.
So, be careful attacking lobbyists. A lot of them actually do really good work.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Jun 4, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow, sorry man, while I have no problem believing you personally were an ethical lobbyist, no way can you claim lobbiest are these educational do-gooders. I live in Denver where MMS is “lobbied” all the time at lunch, dinner, local strip clubs, etc. And the result… lower environmental standards (cheaper) for drilling deep sea wells. That worked out well. How about finance reform? 80% of Americans back it, can’t be passed.
Look man, I have family members that have been lobbiest in CA state politics. They aren’t bad people, but it is bad for the system. When money (corporations who influence legislation via lobbiest) can be louder than voters it is no longer a Democracy.
Its not the lobbiest fault per se, but they are a key to what is wrong in the system… but that has nothing to do with much so I digress.
MMS by definition can't be lobbied
they are regulators, not legislators. They can be influenced or bribed, but not lobbied.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The lobbying/bribing comment was a joke. I’m very familiar with lobbying; I’ve had to work with a couple photography associations about lobbying for crap in digital rights, etc. But I was just trying to blow past the bribing the shit comment he made b/c it made zero sense in taking a side against the entirety of my statement.
I heard an interview with Willie Brown when he was mayor of San Francisco...
…and they guy asked him how he could justify taking more money from tobacco than any other local-level politician in the country and enact the strictest anti-smoking laws and he said:
“If you can’t take somebody’s money and fuck ‘em, you don’t belong in politics.”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
UFC lottery
We need to remember that lots of sports have a lottery aspect to them. Essentially only the few top guys ever payback their investment. Its why going into sports is a pretty risky proposition.
I mean what do you think minor leaguers in baseball get paid? How about college football players. I bet all these guys are left with nagging injuries and not much future career prospects because they want to get RICH. Of course the upside in the UFC isn’t as great and the lack of union doesn’t help some of the lesser fighters, but that explains what’s going on.
That also explains why the UFC doesn’t have to pay the middling fighters much. They are interchangeable and if you want a shot at GSP money then you have to be in the UFC.
First of all
I want to thank Michael Rome for that estimate. I have linked to it at least a dozen times (as recently as yesterday) since that was published.
Why do the deserve to make more when they are already paid more than the average worker?
That is true, but who are we paying to watch? I am hoping it is the fighters and not the commercials or ring girls or the promotion’s executives. Which means if we are paying to see them, shouldn’t the money being going to them?
Why do movie stars make so much? There are two parts to this answer. One: because they sell tickets. Two: Because if one studio doesn’t pay them what they want, another will which is how they determine their ridiculous value. Apparently we fans think it is alright to pay to see Will Smith and Sandra Bullock in a movie, but want Michael Lynton and Sony to keep all the money.
The simple truth is Rampage and Rashad got screwed. It is hard for many of us to fathom since they supposedly walked away with $2 mil and $1 mil respectively. But their drawing power is what helped sell a reported 900,000 buys. With gate that is $27 million dollars for Zuffa’s coffers. Now subtract Rome’s estimated cost of $5 million plus a payout of no more than $5 million and some wealthy people made an additional $17 million. And this isn’t even counting foreign rights, rebroadcasts, DVD sales, merchandise, and other auxiliary forms of revenue. Without those two headlining, any other non-title match does 400,000 buys, They added $13 million dollars with their presence. Now that is a great investment, paying two men $3 million so you can make $17+.
Now if fighters don’t deserve more money than why aren’t we asking for prices to come down? Shouldn’t ppv and ticket prices be cheaper if everyone is supposed to do this for the love.
Now many are going to say, “well obviously you hate Zuffa”. But I don’t. I really respect what Dana has done. A little over a decade ago the man had nothing and now sits atop an empire. That is inspiring. But It doesn’t mean it is optimum for everyone involved. I really think competition is necessary to keep everyone honest, the only problem with that is no one wants competition. Fans don’t want it. For some reason they want everything under one umbrella even if it isn’t the best solution for a particular fighter.
by John Nash on Jun 4, 2010 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
But their drawing power is what helped sell a reported 900,000 buys
Did Zuffa not do a great deal in order to help creating that drawing power?
Did Zuffa not give those guys a vehicle to create the hype?
Did Zuffa not and invest an entire season of a reality show in building that fight?
The Ultimate Fighter is extremely successful as a way to build fighters and each Rampage and Rashad has benefitted from two seasons of TUF.
If neither fighter had been of TUF of appeared in previous UFC broadcasts, would anyone have cared about them?
Without the UFC business model would $900,000 people have paid to see them?
How many people watched Arlovski vs Fedor?
by truck on Jun 4, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Everything you wrote is true truck
which is why I included these statement:
who are we paying to watch? I am hoping it is the fightersand
I really think competition is necessary to keep everyone honest, the only problem with that is no one wants competition. Fans don’t want itMost people really buy the UFC only. If Lesnar vs Fedor and GSP vs Jake Shields was booked tomorrow in Madison Square Garden under a generic banner it would do half what it would do with the UFC. That is true but i also think that is kind of sad. Our interest seems to lie with three letters and not with the fighters.
it's the same scam the WWE
pulled. And when they won and became a monopoly pro wrestling fell off a cliff.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jun 4, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t get why so many people are obsessed with everything taking place under one acronym. As a guy that came over from boxing that makes no sense to me. If I am interested by who is fighting I’ll watch it anywhere (maybe with the sound off if it is Showtime). And then I remember that the UFC fanbase came over from the WWE when it was first on Spike and I think that goes a long way in explaining this mindset .
I don’t get why so many people are obsessed with everything taking place under one acronym.
Because it’s what’s best for the sport.
Really? Having a single monopsonistic power is best for the sport? Or by sport you mean for those viewing it and not the fighters.
NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL
When it comes to pro sports, single monopsonistic powers are what works in this country.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Jun 4, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
But none of those are monopsonies. Each has a revenue sharing plan with their respective players’ unions and actively compete with other teams over players.
Plus, comparing team sports with an individual sport is silly in my opinion.
Competition for players? So what? Athlete salaries in they respective sports are only what they are because of hoe successful the sport is. Let the UFC grow MMA into something truly mainstream and extremely successful and watch them doll out competitive paydays. If they don’t, someone else will jump into the established MMA game and do it for them.
That’s how it will work. Fighters DO NOT have it that hard. They WILL be payed competitively.
Athlete salaries were kept low in pro sports until Curt Flood. Ever hear of him?
by VirtualBalboa on Jun 4, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup
I’m a huge baseball fans as well. Not sure what your point is though? Flood helped usher in free agency, but if the sport isn’t big enough, it doesn’t matter.
MMA is presently “killing boxing” says Dana White. Now compare the headliners in each sport and what they make when they sell a million PPVs.
by VirtualBalboa on Jun 4, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Name 10 boxers who can draw over 1M
Because if you’re not making millions, you’re making $10k if you’re lucky. There’s a reason more guys are going into MMA than boxing. Yeah, Mayweather and Pacquiao are currently making obscene amounts of money and this is broadcast to the world. Everyone else in boxing makes jack shit.
If in MMA Brock and GSP made $30M and every other guy made $10k I strongly doubt people would be on websites talking about how fair it was.
by Jason H. on Jun 4, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Boxers can make a million dollars without drawing a million PPV buys. Amir Khan is guaranteed at least 1.25 million every time he steps in the ring by Golden Boy. Clottey made $3 million guaranteed when he fought Pacquiao, and that only sold 750,000 PPVs.
by VirtualBalboa on Jun 4, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
who are we paying to watch? I am hoping it is the fighters
It is a combination of the two. Sure people watch football for the players, but players come and go, the NFL stand tall and will find replacements. NFL salaries are stupid anyways.
Most people really buy the UFC only.
Most people watch the NFL only. Most people believe there should only be one major league and get confused beyond that.
But we are not watching a team league sport where they compete in a season to see who is that years best, we are watching a competition between two individuals. For a century boxing has been able to successfully promote fights. And even the PGA and the Tennis Grand Slam are not part of a privately held promotion.
Fans obsession with having a single league – the UFC – sprang out of the WWE.
Fan obsession with a single league has nothing to do WWE
I could care less about the WWE.
Fans want to see the best compete against the best. It doesn’t matter if it is individuals or teams. The NFL and AFL merged to end confusion and competition. The NHL and WHA did the same thing. The ABA and NBA did the same thing. People want to see the best face the best it is as simple as that.
A huge advantage that MMA has over boxing is the ability to stack a card. When is the last time you saw a stacked card in boxing? Or two relevant title fights on the same card? I don’t want a free lance MMA product at that cost.
by truck on Jun 4, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So apparently the only solution for this is for everyone to fight in the UFC? That to keep us fans happy fighters had better give up any hope of a competitive labor market? Why is it that Zuffa, a small privately held company, should have complete ownership of a whole sport? Because we like the acronym? Because they had the fortune of broadcasting The Ultimate Fighter? Because we think Dana is cool?
It’s become abundantly clear that this is not what you want to hear, but the answer is because it’s good for the sport, and by extension good for the fighters. ESPECIALLY good for the next generation of fighters.
And a competitive labour market would not be sacrificed. If when MMA is at it’s zenith the UFC is not handing out competitive paydays and keeping its fighters happy, somebody else will.
By that point it will be easy for big money to get into the sport Zuffa grew into a proven popular mainstream source of huge revenue but was unable to maintain because it was too stupid and greedy to treat the fighters right. It will all happen completely organically.
So let me get this straight:
1. The UFC should be the only major promotion, because people will only accept the best fighting the best like the NFL or the NBA
2. With no other competitor the sport will see a massive growth
3. Because of this massive growth the UFC will see fit to share its largess with the fighters, Because if they don’t
4, Someone else will make the massive investment to start a promotion that no one will watch because everyone only watches the UFC?
Have I followed you correctly? You do realize that there is a reason that the UFC goes hard after every competitor, and it has nothing with defending the integrity of the sport, or even actually worrying about Elite XC, Affliction, or Strikeforce overtaking them as the next major, It has everything to do with not allowing a promotion enough space to grow where they can begin to compete over fighters, thus handing fighters the leverage in negotiations. Currently, with the exception of Fedor and a few Japanese fighters, there is only one buyer and that is a world they intend to keep.
1. Correct.
2. Correct.
3. Correct.
4. It won’t be that massive of an investment. The UFC will have already done all the hard work in establishing the sport and bringing it to the mainstream. All whoever will need is big money and the opening to use it. It will be a large investment strictly monetarily speaking, but one that makes sense if the the product that generates this massive source of revenue (the fighters) are not happy with the current pro-level medium.
People will watch if the upstart was able to get the unhappy product away form the UFC because, and this is an important point here, MMA will have transcended simply the UFC by this point. We won’t be in this state that we’re in right now that the brand is the main draw because the sport will have truly arrived in the mainstream. Joe Blow will know who Rampage Jackson and Rashad Evans are and they won’t need the UFC brand to know what they’re getting. Much of MMA will also be on free TV, and that hurdle of getting people to plunk down 45 bucks or head out to a bar to watch will no longer be there.
And no matter how much they want no competitors, if they grow the sport to the extent that they wish to, that’s simply impossible. for the reasons above, if the UFC isn’t on top of it and keeping their fighters happy, big money will come along and do it for them, and they’ll lose everything. Even if it’s only the potential of competition, that will still keep them competitive. To become complacent when operating with such a valuable product would mean the death of the UFC. But Dana a co are smart, good businessmen, so they won’t let their company die. They will ensure it’s survival by keeping the fighters happy and giving out competitive pays days.
Like i keep saying, it will work itself out organically.
I am saying one major company makes things easier
and that is what people want, I didn’t say it solved all the issues. Clearly a formation of a fighter union would be nice to change the balance of power, but that is a ways away yet regardless .
Having all the consensus top talent in one place might make this easier for the fighters though. The fighters will have a closer connection and quality scabs would be harder to find.
The problem with union talk right now is that the top fighters are already making big money and don’t need it, while the lower ranked fighters have little to no power…
I think your best bet to have any sort of collective bargaining agreement would be if there were two or three competitive promotions. This would give the fighters the leverage to basically decide which promotion would be the major league. The promotion that gave in to a startup union would be the one that would now enjoy a monopoly on the best talent, while the others ones would be left in the cold unless they settled as well. This settlement would also probably mean a merger of some sorts as the fighters union would want to protect the number of slots available.
I have rec'd you, like, 4 times already today.
We need to just give in and be honest with ourselves. It’s guy love. We should get Best Friends Forever bracelets.
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"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
You know the saying:
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
The flip side is that on their own, without the UFC, these fighters simply don’t draw. How much would Rampage-Rashad do outside of the UFC? 200k? The UFC adds a LOT of value, they are not just generic management.
The thing that bothers me more than the salary is the lack of revenue sharing on things like the video game outside of a few top stars.
A company that goes out of its way to keep everything secret in terms of salaries/bonuses shouldnt get the benefit of the doubt on those secrets. Secret bonuses are a classic 19th century management tactic to keep workers in the dark about what their co workers make, and to make sure they dont complain, because, you never know, maybe they could get one if they keep behaving well!
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 12:01 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
and with that
it’s off to class, have fun here!
by Michael Rome on Jun 4, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
you sure you're a libertarian Micheal?
You’re sounding like a Wobbly battling against the Trusts.
;)
But yeah I agree the video game rights are possibly the biggest screw job the UFC is pulling.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Totally
Rome needs to get in touch with Monson for the bi-monthly Eugene Debbs reading. I hear that Habermas and Zizek will moderate discussion, and Pete Seeger will perform Solidarity Forever and other selects from the little red songbook with the ghost of Woodie Guthrie.
…sorry, my anarcho-syndicalist friend and I have been out of touch and I needed to vent this pent up mockery.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
My god, Zizek and Habermas on BE…
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
by dancingChicken on Jun 4, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I misread “Pete Seeger” as “Peter Singer” and wondered who would be lusting after the animals.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Boy, that escalated quickly… I mean, that really got out of hand fast. It jumped up a notch.
Kid Nate killed a guy. Did you throw a trident? Yeah, there were horses, and a man on fire, and he killed a guy with a trident.
I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that. You should find yourself a safehouse or a relative close by. Lay low for a while, because you’re probably wanted for murder.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Jun 4, 2010 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
rec'd
I always know when i’ve struck a nerve because someone we ban starts calling my house.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
wtf?
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
what I said
or they’re signing me up for every email newsletter on earth or threatening me via twitter. etc etc etc
And I don’t even get half the shit Brookhouse gets.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Jun 4, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well...damn....
that’s crazy.
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
I remember getting all pissed off at Nate about a warning back in the day, but who fucking calls someone’s house?
I've often wondered why y'all use your real names when that could happen so easily
But who would be petty enough to do that?
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Jun 4, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I read an article a few months ago that said Zuffa has two loans that still are being paid off. One for $25 million, and one for $425 million, those are some pretty significant chunks of money. The big one needs to be paid off by 2015, If you want my bet when fighter pay really is going to take off, it is when that big loan is paid off in 4-5 years.
Another anti ufc post by KNate
What a shock…..his standard slant is do old.
So many better writers out there. BE has some great talent but not KN. Bias journalism is so tiresome and lazy. It takes no balls.
by banter on Jun 4, 2010 12:30 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
i'm curious how many people who pile on during these "fighters should make more" discussions, actually pay for the ppvs they watch
based on most of the live results posts on here… not a majority (see the 30 second lag in comments when watching on a stream).
here are better ways to make a career
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
So funny that people attack Fedor for being with M-1.
But he makes his money. Then when reports like this come out that DW is indeed screwing his own fighters for greed everybody wants to point fingers the other way.
MMA fans must just be that fickle or unable to formulate connections.
A key difference would be this...
The UFC constanly puts on good fights…
M-1 constanly prevents good fights…
Why do people so fervently side with DW?
The fighters should be making more of the revenue generated, end of story. I don’t see how you can even argue with that logic.
http://www.dumb-out.net/2010/06/axis-of-evil-three-promoters-fight.html
http://www.dumb-out.net/2010/05/ufc-touts-international-expansion-while.html
Nuff Said….
There are much better arguments being made right here in the comments than what is behind those links.
Just BE.
but that wouldn’t lead people to his site
by DayGeaux on Jun 4, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
So which is it...
Is the UFC making too much money and not sharing enough with the fighters, or are they running bad business by doing too many shows, diluting their market and wasting the momentum of UFC 100?
One day you’re writing that the UFC has peaked and that’s it for them, the next day you’re saying they’re making too much money and they need to spend more of it. It can’t be both ways.
One of the great things about words is that...
…you can put them in any order you like!
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
But not that order.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Worth keeping in mind, as well...
Is that we don’t really know how much these guys are making. It’s generally accepted that guys are getting PPV points, and back end bonuses, and who knows what else. How much is that? Who really knows. Did Rampage make only 200-300k? Did he get a million or two off of the ppv? We don’t know.
The odd thing about boxing is they seem to really enjoy paying their fighters one huge lump sum and advertising that amount out to the world. Before the fight happens we know Mayweather made $30M (or whatever he makes for fight abc). The UFC tends to operate more like a traditional employer, where everyone doesn’t know exactly what everyone else makes because it’s not really anyone’s business but the fighter and the person paying them.
I don’t think the headliners are hurting for money in any way, shape or form…or could be considered anything else but wealthy.
The mid carders? Most people would do pretty well making 20-100k 2-3x a year. And that’s just disclosed pay directly from the UFC, nothing counting sponsorships etc. etc.
It’s easy to paint the UFC as an evil empire and since we don’t know how the money is spent, all we can do is speculate and all of us are going to bend our speculation to fit the point we’ve already decided before looking at it.
The way I look at the issue is this:
1) UFC is making a lot of money, and has run consistently successful cards for nearly ~2 years now after running at a loss for a long long while
2) More fights are being put on than ever, which means more fighters than ever, and more and more guys are making solid money in the sport. Guys like Leonard Garcia are scraping by when they they’re fighting for Ring of Fire and then getting 10k to make their UFC debuts. This typically represents 5-10x what they were making per fight in the prior show, and doesn’t include all the extra opportunities being in the biggest organization in the world present to you. Not to mention that if you win, that money ramps up very quickly.
3) The disclosed pay for headliners and everyone else on cards has been going up consistently. UFC 114, which wasn’t exactly star studded, had disclosed payouts of 1.4M. 2-3 years ago the total payouts on cards was half that amount.
4) More guys than ever are able to make their living as full time fighters without having to work day jobs. This number is increasing all the time as UFC increases the amount of cards they put on, despite calls from sites like this to put on less fights (So the fighters can get paid less often?)
You notice the only guys you really see complaining about money are the guys who are making a ton of money and realize they’re losing a step (Tito Ortiz, Dan Henderson).
I guess I'm getting lazy...
but I’m not going to read through every single comment. The biggest problem I have with the argument against concentrated power vis a vi private business is that I see, really, no viable alternative in most cases. The fighters can’t be equal partners with Dana and the Fertitas. It’s not about equal rights, equal say or equal pay. It’s about turning risk into money. The owners are taking the vast majority of the financial risk thus they will be rewarded most highly.
Who decides what’s equitable? Sure, some are going to get the short end of the stick, so to speak. If there were some overlord or panel who decides who should get what, people would still get screwed, and the whole process would be vastly more corrupt.
Making people aware of what’s happening along with making your case is the best that you can do. If the fighters aren’t making enough, they’ll leave and the product will suffer. The fighters aren’t forced to fight for X amount of dollars. They don’t have to fight at all. Though no one wants to believe that a top fighter (or a lower level fighter) might leave the fighting world, it is an option that all promoters must deal with.
Things are pretty easily controlled inside the octagon or on the field. The same is not true in a world that’s slightly less manageable. In my opinion, the shit really hits the fan when busy bodies try to control that which is not meant to be controlled.
by Cannon Jacques on Jun 4, 2010 2:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is the argument I made above
There’s a market for fighters. Fighters will charge what they think is a fair price. Promotions will pay what they think is a fair price. Given that (outside locker room bonuses and the particulars of a few top fighter’s contracts) there’s a great deal of publicly available data on fighter salaries, we’re not talking about an information-poor market here.
Hence: this is probably a pretty efficient market. If the UFC were paying these guys half of what they ought to, they’d be working elsewhere.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I have now seen your argument.
Since it tracks with mine, I must endorse it. You know, everything about fighter pay and such isn’t pretty or necessarily fair. I’m just not sure what those who are criticizing Zuffa want. I’d really like to know. If they give a bigger percentage of revenue to fighters, what amount is the right amount?
My feeling is that MMA isn’t where most of its competitors in the sports world are in terms of its life cycle. That means that many of its pioneers may continue to struggle financially. There are a number of financially broke and physically broken men from the NFL’s early days. It’s unfortunate, but things have obviously changed for the better. And as you alluded to, the fact that a lot of information is readily available only helps the fighters. Let me be clear that I’m not saying that the UFC is putting the screws to its fighters. It’s hard for management to hide a lot thus the market is at least reasonably efficient.
Who knew one of my allies in this argument would be a “squishy liberal.” The world’s an amazing place.
by Cannon Jacques on Jun 4, 2010 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I know what people would like Zuffa to do differently
a) Pay Fighters far more than they currently do, and then
b) Go out of business.
Because, you know – that’s what’s going to happen. Part of the reason that early pioneers in baseball, football and basketball didn’t make any money is that there wasn’t as much money to be made in their sports. SHOCKER. The same is clearly true in MMA.
Here’s the thing: I’m not happy with the current situation, and (squishy liberal alert) I think the answer is probably a fighter’s union. But that’s 10 or more years down the road. But I certainly don’t want Zuffa to go broke at this point since they’re the only promotion that takes MMA seriously.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I think the best situation
Would end up being the credible threat of the formation of a fighter’s union. I think if that threat is there then they do have to give on some issues to break the will to really organize but don’t incur the full cost of collective bargaining. A strike for a PPV based company running a small number of events would be absolutely devastating I think and that would manifest itself in some industry damaging provisions that would supposedly be pro-fighter. (Heartless economic conservative alert) Unions have a tendency to go overboard, especially when they have dominant leverage like say the public unions.
Not afraid to nitpick
Well put, both of you. How many employees does Zuffa employ and how would a 10% cut in revenues impact their work force? Moving money is a zero sum gain. Without an evil empire to point to give up all the cash others need the argument goes downhill in a hurry.
We can all arbitrarily claim any class of workers is underpaid. And no more than America’s teachers, but that’s not the point. Discussion about who is the most deserving of more pay is as pointless as arguing who the ugliest girl in the room, its all in the eye of the beholder. Everyone deserves more.
But thankfully Dana and Zuffa can be cast as the evil empire so the BE default position can be once again promoted.
Isn't this why guys pay their managers 10% or more?
To manage their careers and money?
I guess everyone has to go through this, big money or not. Anyone can get a credit card with 5k on it and take years to pay it off during college.
Learning to manage money is a tough life lesson for most people. Fighters are no different.
Maybe it's because where I live it's different
But 35k is a years worth of a good job where I live.
I’m guessing the cost of living in the US has shot up dramatically
I don’t know what is worse the actual article or the continual misinformation being trotted out about Zuffa being in debt. This has been covered already and debunked by people who actually know about business and numbers. Yet leave it to Nate to continue to rant about how Zuffa is losing money and in financial trouble, seriously it’s one thing to write shock articles. It’s another to blatantly lie about facts, that is simply unacceptable on all counts.
by Nightwhistler on Jun 4, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
And the fact that Nate is stating that despite UFC being “massively in debt” they need to be spending MORE money? How does this make any logical sense?
Dear BE,
I am massively in debt. What should I do?
BE: Pay more people a larger percentage of your income! That’s the ticket!
by Jason H. on Jun 4, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
they carry about $450 million in debts
Zuffa carries $450 million in debt, including a $25 million credit facility due in 2012 and a $425 million loan due in 2015, according to a November report issued by Moody’s Investors Service. Moody’s, however, said Zuffa’s income, which comes largely from events and pay-per-view receipts, should be sufficent to make its debt payments
From the las vegas review journal
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Sorry man but $450 in debt isn’t really that big of a deal for a company with annual revenues of $250 million. They have the cash-flow to carry this debt. In the world of big number fiance, everything is relative. Yes, $450 million in debt would freak me out, but if I had Zuffa’s cash flow I’d say its a healthy leverage ratio.
i didn't say it was a huge deal
i’m responding to people saying they’re not in debt. they’re in fucking debt.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
So is every company, its a nonfactor unless it impacts their business.
by pwrcartel on Jun 4, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
every company is NOT in debt
some companies MSFT, Google etc have huge cash reserves.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Which is an attribute almost exclusive to tech companies for a variety of reasons
Not afraid to nitpick
You did say it was a huge deal. You’re saying you worry about Zuffa, even predicting they’re fall in 5 years at one point, and are citing their debt to support your view.
by Goonisis on Jun 4, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I said there was a CHANCE they could fall in five years.
quit putting words in my mouth.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
dude there's a chance that a meteor
hits the Earth and kills us all in five years. Grow a brain.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Damn, don't let the media know.
Swine flu didn’t kill anywhere near what the regular flu kills a year, but fuck the headline were great!
by Riney on Jun 4, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
don't start me on the swine flu
for once the health professionals did a great job of getting vaccines out there and saving a ton of lives and people bitch.
The flu virus is super dangerous because it mutates really fast, if H1N1 hadn’t been nipped in the cradle it could’ve picked up some of the virulence of the bird flu strain that was going around Hong Kong a couple years back and turned into a real motherfucker.
The 1918 flu took a trip or two around the world before it became the deadly killer it evolved into.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
In fairness you did say
I think there’s a very good chance that Zuffa is busted in five years.
Very good chance and meteor striking earth are not on the same level
There’s a tremendous difference in being in debt because you are mismanaging your company and creating a debt to expand your company.
People are saying that Zuffa isn’t in debt like someone who has maxed out credit cards, is behind on their mortage and will never make enough money to get out of the red.
Buying the remains of PRIDE, expanding to the UK, creating a Canadian branch, etc are things Zuffa is doing to expand the company and the sport. They aren’t buying shit up left and right because the company is in ruins and is unstable and prime for a collapse.
by sadface on Jun 4, 2010 5:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
very well said.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Jun 4, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually buying Pride was a horrible reason to incur debt, expanding the UK just turned positive in the past year (though I could be wrong there), etc. So there are questionable investments which would lead one to question if the debt level is okay, but the answer, as always, is in the cash flow. So long as cash flow keeps generating $100+ positive cash flow the $450 is not an issue.
it doesn't matter why they incurred the debt
the reality is that their debt load makes them extremely vulnerable to business reversals.
Buying PRIDE was also a TERRIBLE waste of money. They straight up got jacked by some yakuza on that one.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Glad
We agree on at least one point. Actually their massive debt really isn’t that bad. Think about it this way, assume Zuffa has positive cash flows annually of $112.5 million and their current debt of $450 due mostly 2014. When the loan comes up they will refinance, its not like they need every cent of profits for the next 4 years to cover the $450.
Even if annual income drops to say $60 million, their bank will refinance them. They will get different terms, but when you have substantial positive cash flow from on-going operations it is easy to get refinancing. No leveraged company is over “out of debt”.
Think of it this way, around UFC 100 there were reports that Zuffa had an enterprise value of around $1 billion. Now this enterprise value is a theoretical number some investment banker intern put together and I thought it was hight to begin with. However with $250 million in revenues and over $100 million in earnings a 10 P/E raitio is reasonable as well as a 4 Enter/Rev value which is probably high. So lets call Zuffa as worth $800 million. So their Debt/Equity ration is under 1. This is not a highly leveraged company. They are creditworthy and if necessary could secure additional financing. Not unlimited financing, but the point is they are no where near a cash crunch.
You have to get past what is on the surface of those debts. There is no intention to pay them back in full at the appointed time. At least not without incurring new debt. I’ll trade you a disk full of judo chops for some of my finance books?
Wild ass guess
They could probably end up getting several billion dollars more in debt financing depending on what interest rates they’d be able to sustain.
Not afraid to nitpick
Actually buying Pride was a great move it eliminated their only competition and made them the only brand in mma that matters and regardless of what some thing they dind’t pay nearly what people think they did.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Jun 4, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
No it doesn't
Their debt load is relatively low.
Yes buying the PRIDE brand was a waste of money though the fighter contracts was a big deal.
Not afraid to nitpick
Excuse me for not ...
… shedding tears for a guy who blows his bonus money on designer shades for every day of the week. The fighters take the risks and get the rewards.It’s not UFC’s job to babysit them and tell them how to use their money.
by andherewego on Jun 4, 2010 3:43 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
PPV % not included
Sure salaries were about $1.3 million on $12 – $13 total revenues, but Rampage gets around $2/PPV from what I have gathered (please correct this Rome if I am wrong) and Rashad has a PPV clause as well. If Zuffa paid out around $2 million total in PPV shares to the headliners then the payout ratio is closer to 25%, not 10% Plus there are the infamous locker room bonuses and other benefits of being a UFC fighter that aren’t reported by the athletic commissions.
Here is the real key to fighters securing their futures; make it so Dana’s bottom-line is dependent on them, and their bottom-line is dependent on Dana. Only by having mutual necessity will their be “fair” sharing. If the fighter needs Zuffa more than Zuffa needs the fighter, its business. Not bullying, business.
by pwrcartel on Jun 4, 2010 4:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Okay, but your facts back up my point. But here is the bottom-line PPV points on fighter contracts are the largest single form of fighter pay at any PPV. What he know is that salaires are roughly 10% and then there are other payments we don’t get to know about. So it is accurate to say that fighters are getting at least 10%, not only 10%.
Lets break down the last UFC card, UFC 114:
- estimated ppv sales 900,000 × 50 × 50% (UFC cut) = $22,500,000
+ gate of $3.8 million = $26,3000 in revenue. This is excluding all other forms of revenue, which according to some sources could equal 50% their gate and ppv numbers.
Now expenses.
According to Michael Rome it is $3-4 million, but we’ll go high and say $5 million without salaries. Now throw in salaries – $1 million for Rashad with ppv bonuses, $2 million for Rampage (with bonuses) and less than a $1 mil for everyone. To be conservative we’ll say a total of $5 million for total payout, including bonuses.
So $10 million in total expenses for $26 + million in revenue. And this is gate and ppv only. And of that $26 mil less than 20% is for payout. if we include other forms of revenue the payout percentage drops down around 10-12%.
And forget the 10%. the real point is that the people we are supposedly paying to see are getting 10-20% of the payout, while a small cabal are walking away with 3 to 4 times as much. Now multiply this by 12 or 13+ cards a year. I don’t know why fans are so adamant that Dana and the Fertittas make so much.
Good breakdown, much better than my 1st quarter ass attempt. Fighter pay distribution is a better point to breakdown, but as you show on average fighter pay is 10 – 20% of gross rev. Is it unfair that the breakdown is more like 5% of the fighters get 15% of the gross revenues and 95% get the other 5% (in a perfect 20% world)? Yes its fair, because that is what the market will bare.
Like it or not dudes are willing to sign contracts to fight for $XX amount, that is what they are worth. Same as every other job.
As for asking Dana and the Fretittas to fork over a little extra chedda, who was paying Zuffa to fight in the UFC back when the Fretittas had sunk $40+ million into their business venture. They took the risk, the get the reward, they own the gold. And the golden rule is that he who has the gold makes the rules. Fair or not, UFC fighters are “worth” what their contracts state their services are worth.
I am not asking for Zuffa to hand over extra money at all. They’re in business and should be looking at their own bottom line. What would help if their was a competitive market for the fighters services, but – judging from most of the comments – there won’t be. Fans have an attachment to the UFC, more so than they do the fighters. For most fans it is either the UFC or nothing, so I hold out little hope of anyone getting what I think the market would actually bear.
And a curious thing about the $40 million Zuffa sunk into the company in the early days. Everyone likes to question the payouts because Zuffa is a private company and the actual pay isn’t reported, but no one questions that figure. The only evidence we have of it is that Dana and the Fertittas claim they went that deep into debt. But if one looks at the number it means they loss $ 2 million + on every show they did, up until UFC 52. They also claim that $10 million of that debt was for the first season of TUF. $1 million an episode for a 3-camera man reality show with no large talent fee? Having worked 16 years in the entertainment industry, I can tell you that is about twice what a cable reality show was costing in 2005.
Just something to think about.
The market will actually bear what the contract says it bears. That was my point, it is irrelevant what anyone thinks the market should bear. I mean Dana can say Kos is worth $100k a fight and Kos can say $250k and you know what? They are both wrong. Whatever the contract states is what the market can bear.
Even in a monopoly so long as their is implied competition in the form of a new entrant, then monopoly rents cannot be consistently extracted. Fighters can leave the UFC, so the market is as far as it can be. And in the end, they are worth their contracted number.
Interesting on the early years claims. I question the $10 million as well because that was the upfront money the Zuffas spent to secure the show, but they didn’t do that until they pre-sold the ad time to BK and others. And of course that $10 million returned quite well no matter if it was guaranteed or not via pre ad sales. The way I recall it thought it was $40 million before the $10 million for TUF, so just call it $40. I can believe that, in 4 years they blew through $10 million a year. Remember, they weren’t just putting on PPV, they were building the organization, the production staff, etc. Start-up costs are always surprising. Could it be more like $30? For all I know, sure. But I think the point is that the Fretittas did dump at least $20-30 million at this before they saw a return. That is not normal investor behavior. So they got the gold. And now they make the rules. And so it goes.
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