Brock Lesnar, Shane Carwin and the UFC's Deep Talent Pool Mean Fedor Emelianenko's Time as Number One Is Almost Up
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 23, 2010 7:19 PM EDT
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Another Fedor fight, another build-up based around Fedor's place in the rankings. Strikeforce continues to be poor in the promotion department and it's left up to the media and fans to create the narrative of the fight. I haven't heard any Strikeforce reps building up Fabricio Werdum to establish him as a legitimate threat or even to talk about his credentials. That job seems to have been left up to men like Jonathan Snowden and Kid Nate. And yet again the mainstream media that so many claim are enchanted by Fedor Emelianenko is deathly quiet about Saturday night's contest.
While fans continue to struggle with the legitimate challenger status of a man who was knocked out cold by one of the UFC's rising stars and eeked out a narrow win over the good-not-great Antonio "Bigfoot" SIlva, Brock Lesnar and Shane Carwin prepare for their titanic clash. I don't think with Fedor/Werdum that "the challenger" has a realistic shot to pull off a win. Carwin and Lesnar are meeting in a bout where it can not be said with any level of certainty what will happen. Right now I think that can be said of a bout between any two of Lesnar, Carwin, Cain Velasquez and Junior dos Santos.
Just the fact that the level of competition is so much higher in the UFC makes for a simple truth: Fedor Emelianenko's time as the best heavyweight in the world is almost at an end.
The only thing keeping Fedor on that pedestal right now is the fact that Lesnar, Carwin, Velasquez and dos Santos don't have the established resume yet, but one of them will within six months. Assuming the Lesnar/Carwin winner faces Cain Velasquez in 4-6 months, it would be an absurdity to think that the winner of that fight is not the world's current #1 heavyweight. The UFC "big four," representing 4 of the top 5 heavyweights in the world, are all going to continue to battle it out in the UFC shark tank while Fedor hangs out in the lazy river with marginal top ten fighters. At some point the competition a man faces has to matter in determining who the best in the world is at that moment. Once one of the UFC heavyweights has established himself and gotten the two big wins they need, it will be time to re-evaluate who is the heavyweight top dog.
This is not intended as a slight to Fedor, you're not going to find a bigger PRIDE fanboy than me. In my mind no one will even be in the discussion with him as the best heavyweight the sport has ever seen for years while the UFC's divisional hierarchy is established. He will still hold that crown based on his dominance in PRIDE when that was "the place" for top heavyweight competition. Watching Fedor fight was always special and I think it still is. Sadly, now it is only special because of the show he puts on rather than the men he does it against.
If we see another long layoff by the Russian following this fight, Saturday night will probably be the last time in MMA that we see a bout featuring a fighter considered the world's best taking place outside of a Zuffa promotion. Enjoy it and realize that you're watching history unfold over the course of seven days.
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Coker has talked up Werdum a little bit, though not as much as you might expect.
"We don't need no water, let the Badr Hari burn!" - Michael Schiavello
Werdum is a glorified tomato can
He lost to JDS. If he beats Fedor, Fedor will be exposed badly. The trouble is, there is no chance in blue hell he can beat Fedor.
by SheepleBuster on Jun 23, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions
"Werdum is a glorified tomato can"
Chael?
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Tomato Can
I wonder if half the people on this site even know what that term means.
Werdum is definitely not in any way shape or form, a tomato can.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
He is a skinny version of Zulu but knows Jujitsu.
No. Seriously. Does any sane person think Werdum will win this? It’s unsane, insane, and psychotic to give Werdum a chance. This is like an ant arm barring an elephant.
by SheepleBuster on Jun 23, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Learn your terms
The fact that the odds of him beating one of the greatest fighters of all time are low does not make him a tomato can.
by Shaun32887 on Jun 23, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I know you ahve your gimmick and all
But it still doesn’t change the fact that Werdum is not a tomato can.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
It is possible, but very unlikely.
Werdum doesn’t have to armbar him to win, he could take a decision.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
I agree with you
but I thought Antonio Silva actually beat Werdum. I think Werdum will be sleep 2 minutes into the fight
by SheepleBuster on Jun 23, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
A decision based on positional dominance and G&P and fishing for a cut TKO is Werdum’s road to victory.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
hmm. can't see it
I think Werdum is going to let Fedor hits him. And once that happens, his insomnia will be cured.
by SheepleBuster on Jun 23, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I understood what you were saying...
and just because you called Werdum a Can doesn’t mean that you were trolling in my book. You just don’t have a clear understanding of the term. I have the same opinion of the point you were trying to make… Werdum only has a chance in hell to “Matt Serra” Fedor (just by upset, not by means). This is one of the most unanticipating HW main events this year. Btw, I loved this piece by Brent. Good job sir. Very unbiased, which is rare.
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac
IF YOU CANNOT WRESTLE, FIND ANOTHER PROFESSION...
Like an ant arm barring an elephant?
I thought you were talking about Werdum against Fedor, but you were obviously talking about Feder against Lesnar…or Carwin…or Overeem…
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 23, 2010 10:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
james thompson is a tomato can
werdum is by no means a can
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
Pudzianowski is a can.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
No, they are not cans
I am not sure how this term came to be put upon MMA. Because it rarely fits anyone that is called it by the so called MMA “Hardcores”.
The term Can refers to its full term of “Tomato Can” which started in the 1930’s to describe fair skinned boxers that would bleed easily, and had nothing to do with their skill level in most cases and many of them, such as Rocky Graziano, Jake Lamotta, Bobo Olson, Tony Zale, Carmen Basilio(the list goes on forever), won most of their big fights with blood streaming down their faces.
The proper boxing term for an unworthy or lower caliber opponent would be a “Stiff” or a “Bum”
yeah but in MMA
it refers more lovingly to cans being “crushed”. A can is an opponent who has no business being in the cage/ring. Dos Caras= Can, he had no idea what he was doing and was brought in strictly as highlight reel making material for CroCop
by Body Triangle on Jun 24, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
but you are correct
none of the fighters previously listed should be cans. except perhaps thompson, but he’s more of a “journeyman”.
by Body Triangle on Jun 24, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
i also dislike
how any underdog is considered a “can” on these websites. Andrei Arlovski a can? you freakin kiddin me? Werdum a can?
G.
T.
F.
outta here.
by Body Triangle on Jun 24, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
lawl @ the best HW grappler being a glorified tomato can
troll harder
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
No, Werdum
and it’s not even close. 2 time ADCC champ and 2 time Mundial champ. No one will ever argue Rodrigo’s heart or prowess on the ground, but like Joe Rogan likes to say there are different levels of jiu-jitsu and Werdum is on a different one than any other HW fighting in MMA. In fact, on a different level than anyone in MMA other than Maia and Jacare.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
In terms pure grappling yes, but lots of people think that Nog has the best grappling taylored for MMA
100 agreed
werdum is a great pure jiu jitsu grappler but nogs game is much more tailored to mma
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
I disagree
I think Werdum’s game is just as suitable for MMA as Rodrigo’s is. His guard, sweeps, and sub’s are all just as dangerous, if not more so, than Nogueira’s. What separates the two is Nog’s heart and chin. Could Werdum have pulled off that sweep (and eventual sub) against Sylvia? Who knows, but I’m leaning towards no… but not for lack of talent or for lack of “tailoring” his game towards MMA.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
except that he fought at LHW
I would totally agree with you thought, if he fought at HW
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
It’s better to burn out, cause rust never sleeps.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
by Ubernoober on Jun 23, 2010 7:01 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
same old neil young, brah. he’s got like 40 albums for you to choose from!
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor won’t lose… he’ll just fade away.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
how about
And I know [Fedor]‘s living there
And [Fedor] loves me to this day
I still can’t remember when
Or how I lost my way
this = favorite neil young song
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Good one for Fedor's opponents:
Helpless, helpless, helpless, helpless.
Helpless, helpless, helpless, helpless.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
Hey hey, my my
E-me-lianen-ko never dies
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2010 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fedor's biggest mistake was not signing with the UFC
1. It cost him and M1 tens of millions.
2. He will be largely forgotten within five to ten years as a result.
Lousy blog. . . .
. . . . filled with slanted opinions and somehow found the nerve to claim them as “truths.”
Fedor’s decision not to sign with the UFC left all of you little beyotches with hurt vaginas. You guys actually claim to be men??
by MMAMathMustDie on Jun 23, 2010 7:10 PM EDT reply actions 12 recs
lol, rec'd
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s what i was going for
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions
It's green because they don't allow
schmucks like yourself to vote it down.
by MMAMathMustDie on Jun 23, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
you won't last long here friend
you might be the new contestant on Making the Ban
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
by DamnSevern on Jun 23, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
ahhh, right about here is where the moderator deleted several comments
including mine, but I never got a notice as to why
by SimplePsych on Jun 24, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
there was an inappropriate argument between members, as soon as one comment is deleted everything that branches off of that goes with it. Unfortunate casualties
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 26, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I experimented this and it actually seems to work.
Ignoring a troll doesn’t work, he just keep trolling.
Responding to a troll doesn’t work, for obvious reasons.
But Rec’ing a troll is surprisingly effective. It’s like a green light for banning.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Jun 23, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The flag will get the attention of a mod and work just as well.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
I can’t flag everything I find stupid though. But I can make an obvious sarcastic rec. I flagthings like insults and hateful stuff (which make me thing I could have flagged this guy lol). I just don’t take this whole thing that seriously.
I'm a lover not a fighter
same boat
but i’ve never actually flagged anyone
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I flag from time to time
Although the funniest one I’ve flagged is the weird chick who told me to kill myself during Strikeforce: Nashville.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
I hate the "just ignore him" moniker on most websites
Because it never works. It’s basically ignoring the problem and assuming they will go away by themselves. I had that problem as a mod on another site and instead of banning trolls we had the “ignore the troll”.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
is that what was going on, can’t hate on that I guess then
(btw, your icon looks like a nipple when I am scrolling by quickly)
YOU MAD?
I’m not resting until I’m officially Anderson Silva status.- Jon "Bones" Jones
by AfroSamurai on Jun 23, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately Fedor will probably never fight in the UFC
This isn’t because he doesn’t want to fight in the UFC but rather because the UFC will not share in the profits. Dana has repeatedly said he has tried to negotiate, however, he begins his negotitation with, “you are a third rate organization that brings nothing to the table, I refuse to share profits and will not co-brand, so let’s negotiate”. Dana’s persona is what is in the way with Fedor fighting in the UFC. I am a huge fan of Fedor but I don’t think he can beat Carwin or Lesnar as they are just too big. I do think Fedor would be unstoppable at 205 though. Let the attacks begin!!!!!
Dana is right on this one
No way would any sane businessman or corporation co-promote with M-1. No way.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
by duck on Jun 23, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Someone with a bit more finesse than Dana “F-Bomb” White might have gotten Fedor without co-promotion. Not certain my any means but possible.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jun 24, 2010 12:33 AM EDT up reply actions
This person you speak of does not exist. Fedor insisted on co-promotion even when every other demand was met.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly
I would think less of Dana if he was like ‘hey guess what guys, I bent over for M-1 to get fedor & bankrupted the company but the good news is we get to see an unknown eastern European fighter in every fight on every one of our cards til we have to shut up shop! Also we aren’t called the ufc anymore, now we are M-1 Global presented by vadim finkelstein feauturing the ufc! But it was totaly worth it right?’
Be like water..
by theredoctober on Jun 24, 2010 2:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry my last reply was to mr duck
Be like water..
by theredoctober on Jun 24, 2010 2:45 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Brent, I’d save this for after the Overeem fight if it ever comes to fruition. Then it’s time to say there’s no other top guys for Fedor to fight.
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
I second this.
I feel that Overeem has an excellent chance at defeating any of the top 4 in the UFC. If Fedor beats Overeem, it should silence a whole heap of the nay-sayers on the ’net.
by MMAMathMustDie on Jun 23, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
How so?
He’d still have the big 4 of the UFC he’s never seen. Are you suggesting Brock Lensar or Shane Carwin or Junior Dos Santos or Cain Valesquez aren’t “top guys”?
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
top guys outside the UFC
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 11:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The point was that 4 of the top 5 guys in the world are battling it out in the UFC. Fedor taking on a #8-10 guy is not the same as if Lesnar takes on Carwin and Cain back to back.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I put Overeem at #6 and Werdum at #10. That’d make 5 straight top-10 guys for Fedor, three of whom were top-6 at the time.
What people have to realize is that this newly developing heavyweight scene is currently evaluated more on perception than accomplishment. If it were the other way around and in a perfect world, Cain, JDS and even Werdum (I guess Dos Santos/Werdum is the only part of this scenario that has played out, and likely will be the only one) would be fighting to challenge Fedor while Brock, Carwin and Overeem look to shore up their resumes. But this is only if I hadn’t wasted my third wish from the genie on the Roast of David Hasselhoff…
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 24, 2010 4:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
all great points on the HW devision. Fedor has done nothing but fight top 10 competition sence the Choi fight. At the time Fedor fought these fighters hears where they ranked according to sherdog Arlovski #2 Tim Sylvia #5 Brett Rogers #8 and the Werdum is #9 right now. If anything no HW inside or outside the UFC has faced top 10 competition like he has. Broack only top 10 W’s are Mir and Randy and Carwin only Mir.
If Junior beats any two of the big 4 in the UFC, he's #1.
He’s already cleaned out most of the division. I think Lesnar needs to defend three times before he could take number one, largely because of how thin his record is. Carwin needs at least two, so does Cain.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
It’d go something like Roy Nelson —> Lesnar/Carwin loser —> Winner of Cain vs. Champ
That’s a fuckin murderer’s row right there
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he gets another middle of the roader after Roy.
Kongo or Rothwell will work. Also, the UFC is not above ‘punishing’ a guy for derailing somebody marketable (Paulo Thiago was booked to fight Kos, Fitch, then Alves in a row from his debut), so I wouldn’t rule out feeding him Russow.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
That’d be brutal for Russow, but the dude is made of cast iron so it’d be fun to watch. I like the Kongo fight myself.
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Russow is a dead man in that fight.
Junior doesn’t throw the same combinations over and over for the whole fight. He’s got more experience, more power, and better (although clearly far from perfect) technique than Duffee, and wouldn’t give Russow the option to stay awake.
The only thing I don’t like about the Kongo fight is I don’t want Junior getting kneed in the balls over and over. Then again, who’s left? Mir would get torn up and he won’t fight Nog so… yeah. He’s cleaned the division out other than the guys being protected (Carwin, Cain) and not getting his title shot.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
JDS would blast him in seconds.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
But I think dos Santos is stronger than Kongo, whereas Cro Cop wasn’t, so he won’t be bullied so much
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Frank Mir, Cheik Kongo, and Ben Rothwell is all they have left to put up against him if they want to actually give him a relevant fight.
Mir is the only one of those I'd consider even remotely relevant.
Rothwell in the past two years has been blasted by Arlovski and had a completely uncompetitive showing against Cain with an awful slopfest win over Gilbert Yvel as icing.
Kongo is only relevant in the UFC HW matchmaking sense where any guy coming off a win against anybody with half a pulse is considered a fringe contender. The division is still thin, regardless of how great the top end has gotten.
Mir… I guess is relevant kinda. I was never sold on his resurgence personally. His ‘submission before position’ style of jiu jitsu combined with nearly non-existent wrestling is not a strong combo. Throw in his always questionable cardio and you have a guy who’s unreliable. Factor in the terrible ring IQ… yeah, throw a flying knee while a wrestler is trying to take you down! You’re not Urijah, and you aren’t that good. Junior would do well in the scrambles if it ever touched the ground and would destroy Mir’s rudimentary boxing.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
As far as fighting someone inside the top 25, those are the only names they have. Personally, I think it has to be Mir (after Nelson), and that he’ll kill him. I think Mir’s standing is grossly inflated based on entering the top 10 with a victory over a 1-0 unranked Brock Lesnar and beating a lethargic Big Nog.
Exactly.
Quite frankly, Junior’s UFC resume is way more impressive than anybody else in the division at this point. If you don’t buy the belt hype, he should be ranked above both belt holders and Cain… he just can’t prove it since the UFC knows the division still isn’t deep, it’s just top heavy and they need to preserve the illusion.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Cain’s win over Nog is the singular most impressive win amongst the young UFC heavies/
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
BUT DON'T YOU KNOW NOG WAS WASHEDUP
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Jun 23, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I was a huge Cain hater before that fight
and he shut me the fuck up. That was an awesome win for him, and even though Nog has been on the decline, Cain was brutally effective in that fight. I also think Werdum, beating Cro Cop and Yvel standing, then absolutely crushing gatekeeper Gonzaga is a better resume than decisioning Kongo, outhustling Rothwell, and the one stellar win against Nog.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I actually got into a huge argument with some guy I had just met at the bar for UFC 101 that Nog had the much better striking standing, and that Cain had no power, a weak chin, and shotty defense. It didn’t end well for me. Luckily I never saw that guy again.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2010 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I kept saying that Cain hasn't fought a real submission fighter
and he didn’t have the power to put Nog out, so once he got sloppy in his GNP he’d get caught. I was so fucking wrong. Went into the next rankings post and put up a picture of a dinner plate with a crow on it. Part of me still thinks that Cain knew what I said and wanted to shut me up personally.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Quite frankly, Junior’s UFC resume is way more impressive than anybody else in the division at this point.
Going by wins alone, Dos Santos is clearly behind Velasquez and Lesnar.
Herring > Kongo > Cro Cop
Mir > Nogueira > Werdum
Couture > Gonzaga
(and of course Mir beat Nogueira and Kongo, and Carwin beat Mir and beat Gonzaga first, so they’re in the running as well)
I don’t think the way Dos Santos beat the guys he beat is enough to make up for the deficit here. But then again, I don’t usually tend to put stock in those kinds of things unless I’m forced to—a win is a win, in my mind.
Werdum vs Nogueira: July 1, 2006
Werdum vs Vera: June 7, 2008
All that happened between Mir and Werdum is that they swapped fighting partners in 2006 and 2008.
Not sure what you’re getting at.
Mir beat Nogueira in 2008. That was a big win, and more recent than his loss to Vera by two years.
Werdum beat Vera in 2008. That was a relatively minor win, since Vera had kinda flamed out at heavyweight by then.
In the relevant time frame, beating Mir > beating Werdum.
The best-case scenario for JDS at this point:
JDS / Nelson and Mir / Big Nog with winner vs. winner (i.e. JDS vs. Mir).
Winner of that (i.e. JDS) then takes on winner of Lesnar / Cain (yes, Carwin has the proverbial “puncher’s chance”).
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 12:44 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I myself have always thouhgt Mir’s ranking was highly overrated. Sure he can beat most any top 10 HW at any time but the man canalso loose agasint any HW at any time he is horrible at taking a hard shot and damage. Its almost like as soon as he gets it hard his heart is taken right from him. I mean just watch the Marcio Cruz , Brandon Vera and Ian Freeman fights. None of them shoul of beat a fighter with the skills like Mir but as soon as he took damamge real hard shots in each one of those fights he just crumbled.
Junior will be the #1 heavyweight within 3-5 years
Then again I’m a JDS fanboy.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
I’m a fanboy, too, and I think it’s 2 years tops
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I want to see how long Brock fights before he walks away
Because JDS/Cain/Carwin…maybe Duffee looks like a murderer’s row. Holy crap that’s worth setting up a tournament.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
i think jds will be the guy to put a HURTIN on brock. i can see carwin catching him and knocking him out, but i can see lesnar, face torn to shit after a fight with jds. i want to see jds beat the crap out of lesnar for 5 rounds. badly.
here's to the rubble...
Brock would take it to the ground immediately
How would JDS get up when Brock is laying on him?
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
When the commision guys help him up.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
by Ubernoober on Jun 23, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Rec'd for awesome visual
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
I am the Ernest Hemmingway of MMA blogs.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
more like the Garcia Marquez
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Marquez for the win
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
I ain’t no messican
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
by Ubernoober on Jun 23, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
some ppl wont get the joke
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Joke?
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
by Ubernoober on Jun 23, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Gabriel Garcia Marquez is a joke?
One of the greatest writers of all time. I’m confused
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
true enough
he’s also Colombian.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jun 23, 2010 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps Uber wasn't joking?
But then again my lit teacher in high school also thought he was Mexican until I said something about it…
Wikipedia was young then… but still… a lit teacher??
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 9:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A middle school art teacher of mine once informed the class Picasso was alive and working
This was in 1983 or so. We called middle school ‘junior high’ in those days.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jun 24, 2010 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Funny you are such a big Lit fan yet you have trouble reading.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I love how the Ref waits to see if he’s out lol
Behave with confidence
by Postpubescent on Jun 23, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think JDS is very good fighter, but man is he overhyped
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I’m blowing a raspberry at you right now. Overhyped? Are you kidding. He has been a murderer. And he has a ridiculous resume.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not saying he’s not a beast or overrated, but a bit overhyped by a lot of people who think he’s going to be champ. I don’t see him beating Lesnar, Carwin, Cain.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I completely agree
As outstanding as JDS may be, he is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Had he brought his skillset to the octagon in say, from 2004 – early 2008, he would have likely already been a dominant champ…he and Fedor might have already had a rubber match.
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 1:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I love you Brent
I mean in a brotherly way.
Does that mean you're into incest?
Fake Emcees, we always act hard, but won't walk the streets without our bodyguards.
What in the blue hell are you talking about?
I don’t even know what that means!
by SheepleBuster on Jun 24, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
How old are you?
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac
IF YOU CANNOT WRESTLE, FIND ANOTHER PROFESSION...
Better watch it...
Confirms the suspicions of many I guess…
You are going to get into trouble for those “inappropriate” comments to a minor…
LMAO…
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 2:50 AM EDT up reply actions
In six months...
one of their resumes will help them surpass him? I’m not saying that as far as rankings (largely unneeded anyway) go he might not be trumped in terms of current relevancy/activity, but his whole body of work is still on his “resume”. And that “resume” is something any of the current fighters would love to build. It’s not happening in six months.
by silent.bisonte33 on Jun 23, 2010 7:15 PM EDT reply actions
On top of that. . . .
. . . . what if the four of them kick the sh*t out of each other, back-and-forthe? What will that prove? Did the blogger who wrote this article not account for that at all?
Assuming the Lesnar/Carwin winner faces Cain Velasquez in 4-6 months, it would be an absurdity to think that the winner of that fight is not the world’s current #1 heavyweight. The UFC “big four,” representing 4 of the top 5 heavyweights in the world, are all going to continue to battle it out in the UFC shark tank while Fedor hangs out in the lazy river with marginal top ten fighters. At some point the competition a man faces has to matter in determining who the best in the world is at that moment. Once one of the UFC heavyweights has established himself and gotten the two big wins they need, it will be time to re-evaluate who is the heavyweight top dog.
Thanks for pretending to read though.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I did read
So two wins and they jump Fedors resume? I get it now.
by silent.bisonte33 on Jun 24, 2010 9:49 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Back to back wins over top 5 competition and they’d be ranked above him in the CURRENT rankings. That’s what people seem to keep forgetting. I’m not talking about who is better over the course of their career. There’s no anything resembling a case for anyone but Fedor right now as the #1 heavyweight to date in the sport. But if you’re talking about the “hear and now” rankings, that’s a different ballgame. And I think two wins over two of the ufc big 4 trumps beating Werdum and Overeem.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
If Lesnar (or Carwin) runs through Cain then JDS I will probably have no problem declaring him the current number one HW. Same with Cain or Carwin. The only wrinkle would be if:
- JDS ( or any of them) loses to Roy Nelson. The fight lines now put Jeff Monson and Andrei Arlovksi above JDS. And without a solid third HW to build the resume, Fedor might stay on top if he gets a victory over Overeem.
- Overeem really jumps up. If before facing Fedor, Overeem kills Bigfoot Silva and Josh Barnett and proves himself a top 5 fighter, then a Fedor victory over Overeem is going to matter.
- Fedor starts fighting a lot more. If he puts in 3 or 4 fights a year beating top 25 fighters, even if they’re not top 5, that still means something.
- A curveball. One of those top HW jump leave the UFC.
The only guy I could see jumping ship is JDS under Soares’ guidance, and that’s a stretch. It’d be a cataclysmic shift for the HW division, though.
What do you think about an Overeem/Bigfoot Silva match before the K-1 GP, or an Overeem/Barnett match in DREAM?
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
PPV would be the key. If the Overeem/Fedor fight does really good numbers than I could see it happening for the money, but I don’t see the number s being that great, so I don’t think anyone should be losing any sleep over it (Dana is, but that’s just his personality).
As for Overeem/Bigfoot or Overeem/Barnett, I would be all for it. 1) Fedor always takes 6 months after every fight so why wait to see Overeem fight again. 2) The last big HW left from the previous generation is Barnett, so either he stays in the mix or we narrow the list down to Overeem. Either way it helps clear up the picture.
The PPV will settle the crucial question of whether or not name fighters > brand and vice versa. If it’s the former, that blows the roof off the whole equation.
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. If it is the former expect Lesnar vs Fedor by the end of 2011… for the WAMMA Heavyweight Championship!
yus!
"/>
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor is a non factor anymore.
1) He not fighting the top competition any more.
2) He talking about retiring while still under contract.
3) Hes in Strikeforce, after many attempts by the UFC to bring him on.
4) He doesnt care about the sport, or the unification of the belts.
5) In 5 years, no one will even care about him because he never proved himself in the big leagues (UFC). He will largely be a PRIDE hall of famer, and thats it. He will be more known for not joining the UFC at a time when the best competition what in the UFC.
6) Everyone is tired of M1 and his Russian mob connections.
7) A lot of fans believe he is damaging the sport, turning it into boxing, where is tough to know who is the #1. The UFC has largely done away with that problem, and Fedor is only adding to the problems. Fan are tired of him, Dana is tired of him, enough said.
by Jesse Taylor on Jun 23, 2010 7:24 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It's always lovely to see people...
…pick-and-choose facts. Easy to spin things in one’s favor. You ought to be a politician! :)
by MMAMathMustDie on Jun 23, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Just one mans opinion.
He’s loosing popular vote here in North America I feel. Not coming to the UFC has made some of us not care about him. If he doesnt care about us. Forget about him.
IMHO, in 10-20 years when he thinks about what he could have done in the UFC, it will be Fedor who wishes he showed more respect to the UFC and the major sport is has become, and not us fans who will have a new hero to rally around and who will surely take over his legend – more importantly, prove his legend against the best of his respected time as Fedor has dodged as of late.
Everything else is AAA, or lower, AA or A
UFC = The Major Leagues to most MMA fans.
by Jesse Taylor on Jun 23, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
STFU
Thales Leites whipped your ass
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Psssh....that was nothing compared to the Peruvian Necktie
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
i remember trying to tell myself CB was the next big thing at one point
sigh
Kuwabara Kuwabara
by J. B. Maddox on Jun 23, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Very nice post...
you summed it up quite nicely.
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac
IF YOU CANNOT WRESTLE, FIND ANOTHER PROFESSION...
Sheeeeeeeet negro
Dana is tired of him, enough said
That’s all you had to say!
by hardlyworking on Jun 24, 2010 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Rec'd
How is saying that the guy has reigned for seven years and that every era must end disrespectful? Methinks the Fedornistas are incorrectly aiming their venom here.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2010 7:25 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
There are fans of MMA
and then there are fans of Fedor. I’ve long been of the mind that there isn’t all that much crossover.
Okay maybe that’s a big harsh.
In any event there aren’t a lot of Fedor fanboys who will listen to any arguments that don’t end with a hot creamy load of Last Emperor.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
You can’t dare say anything about Fedor that doesn’t mean he equals a god. I constantly talk about how much I love Fedor but don’t think he is the best ever and to his fanboys I might have well have taken a shit on him.
Best ever, absolutely...Best right now, not so much
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions
What happens if Carwin beats Brock then Cain beats Carwin then JDS beats Cain then Brock beats JDS and so on
by Tats16 on Jun 23, 2010 7:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The Troll presence is high nowadays.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Jun 23, 2010 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Is Fedor's time as #1 up?
And btw.
Cain will be Fedor’s only successor.
He’s destined for greatness
by KOQ24 on Jun 23, 2010 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Cain is pillow fisted....oh wait.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
cain will get ktfo against jds. at least, i think so.
here's to the rubble...
by imalebowski on Jun 23, 2010 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cain has a concrete head and the good sense to shoot for a TD when he gets cracked.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
That concrete head nearly got him knocked out by Kongo
If Kongo had a semblance of a ground game he’d have won the fight.
But no doubt Cain is a top 5 UFC HW.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
Guy has a wrestler head, like Tito and Brock.
I was really hoping for a JDS/Cain showdown to co-main 116. that would have been amazing.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
Have you accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as your personal Heavyweight Champion?
Indeed
Much like sticking Florian/Maynard on 118
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
I think they're trying to develop their prospects separately
So sorry but no Jon Jones vs. Phil Davis anytime soon.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
It was weird how everyone agreed that Cain had pillow fists
Then people were like “wow so you can acquire KO power after all!?” lol stop kidding me.
I'm a lover not a fighter
What truth?
That’s Brent Brookehouse’s personal opinion.
The Fact is that, NO ONE has a better resume at HW than Fedor
by KOQ24 on Jun 23, 2010 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Reading this
makes me suspect you didn’t actually read the article.
I have accepted BROCKLESNARRRRRR!!!!!!! as my personal Heavyweight Champion!
Baptized in Coors Light and Jack's Links jerky!!!
Dressed in my heavenly DeathClutch robes!!!
by Worldisart on Jun 23, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fact is you beat 3 of the top 5 HW’s in the world you deserve to be #1. Fedor can’t bogart the throne just because of past accomplishments. It isn’t fair to the other fighters in the divsion who are taking the bigger risks. Fighting your ass off amongst the best HW’s in the world deserves more then a #2 ranking imo.
"I’m the UFC heavyweight champion and I will be until the day I decide I don’t want to be. And that isn’t anytime soon." - Brock Lesnar
by MMA_PITBULL on Jun 23, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fedor fought Arlovski when he was ranked #2, rogers when he was #8 and now werdum who is #9.
Brock fought randy after a long layoff and who is now a LHW and is 1-1 with Mir who is over rated.
by philibuster968 on Jun 23, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmmmm?????
ive been thinking about this hard and long>.<
of the four top ufc guys, i could see all of zem losing to one another, so if carwin beats brock and then cain fights and beats carwin and then dos santos fights lesnar and lesnar wins and gets a rematch with carwin and beats him and he fights cain and beats cain and then dos santos fights cain for a title shot and dos santos wins and dos santos beats lesnar for the belt what exactly would that mean for the rankings, all these fighters have recent losses on their records.
and fedor is still on his streak beating werdum, megareem, and possibly josh barnett.
fedor would still be no. 1
this is all hypothetical tho.
"I WILL RAPE YOU TILL THE ROOM STINKS"-Jon Fitch
by TobikanJudan 6 6 6 on Jun 23, 2010 7:47 PM EDT reply actions
MMA is the only sport where arguments over current rankings include accomplishments from 2005.
Admittedly, this is largely because of the relatively few contests involved, but this speaks to the silliness of rankings in general. Fedor beat Nogueira in 2003 in a spectacular win. What the hell does that have to do with him being the best heavyweight in the world in 2010? At least in other sports rankings reboot.
by Michael Rome on Jun 23, 2010 7:47 PM EDT reply actions 13 recs
Can you tell us the exact data that Lesnar won his first fight please so we know when to start counting from in order to get the answer you want.
by j.villain on Jun 23, 2010 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd so hard.
Past history carries way too much weight in rankings, IMO. It’s important, for sure, but I think too many people are living in the past when it comes to Fedor.
Chicago Bulls are the best team in the NBA
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
by DamnSevern on Jun 23, 2010 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think its more the fact that theres no one else who has accomplished what he has, no matter the competition level he’s managed to stay undefeated in some 30 bouts in the most unpredictable sport there is. Any thing can happen at anytime right? he hasnt even really come close to losing by decision for the matter. Faced massive, huge men in their prime, Champions of various sports an pedigrees ect ect. All Unblemished. Is there anyone else that has gone undefeated since 2003? If he was never that good, especially how Dana make’s him out, he should have been defeated at some point at least by decision no? Thus his ranking never goes down. Now I do agree that the rankings are a little shoddy so to speak, but to think that one of those four can do enough in 6 months to impact them and his Legacy is plain rubbish imho.
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
His legacy no, his current ranking yes
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 3:01 AM EDT up reply actions
For some people, this is a distinction that some people are completely incapable of making.
by Michael Rome on Jun 24, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
It certainly seems that way...
The vast majority seem to agree on his overall GOAT status, but the debate on his current ranking seems to range from one ridiculous extreme to the other…from “Fedor couldn’t beat any of the top-10 UFC HWs” to “Fedor could easily take Lesnar and Carwin – at the same time…”
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Here is what I don't get
So Kid Nate comes out and claims Fedor is the best fighter in the history of the world (even though half of his fights are against lousy opponents. Then Brent comes and writes the best piece I have read on this site and Fedor fan boy are offended?
by SheepleBuster on Jun 23, 2010 7:52 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Love it Brent
Rec’d for truth
We all love Fedor but his time is coming to an end pretty quickly.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
why do people think we are going to forget about Fedor in 5 years??
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com and MMAFighting.com, mma enthusiast
he’s not going to be completely forgotten, but if he doesn’t go to the UFC he is not going to be remembered by the majority of people in the future the way that we think of him now.
The UFC is going to shape the history of the sport unless something drastic happens, and they are definitely petty enough to omit the fedor chapter.
That’s sad. That would be like NBA refusing to acknowledge Connie Hawkins’s ABA credentials or MLB not acknowledging what Satchel Paige accomplished.
It’s not going to be that overt at first. But if he doesn’t sign with them they will have no reason to talk about him, and he will be left out of the story by omission. Maybe one day they will talk about it, but they will have no need to tell the fedor story in the near future, and it’s going to hurt his legacy.
It's a subtle difference, but
I’m pretty sure Satchel Paige would’ve signed the deal Fedor turned down.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 23, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Because most people don’t know who he is now, in 5 years only the Pride fanboys and ultra hardcore fans will even talk about him.
The thing is Fedor’s time as #1 is already over, the UFC has the best talent and fighter in the HW division whoever stands atop of that murderers row is the best right now it’s Brock.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
Reply button buddy
And in response to your point I only have two words
DON FRYE
Who the hell has he fought lately? Where has he fought? Bet you can’t answer, but he’s still talked about, he’s a legend.
Fedor has a much, much larger mythos built around him which will keep him in the minds of casuals and hardcores alike for as long as this sport exists.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
lol
only hardcore fans know who Don Frye is. New fans and casual have no fucking clue who Don Frye is, despite his moustache.
Haha
True, EVERYONE knows the moustache
I’m just saying that with his short career in the limelight people remember him.
With Fedor it’s way bigger and people will be comparing other fighters to him and such for a long long time.
I apologize for my never-ending assault on the English Language. I feel like Qui the promoter from Jade Empire...
Doubt it...
I bet that more people know who Don Frye is than know who Fedor is in America.
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac
IF YOU CANNOT WRESTLE, FIND ANOTHER PROFESSION...
To become a man in Texas
you have to do a 5 page report on Don Frye. True story.
So after Fedor retires does anyone else think Zuffa will cash in on all those fight videos from the old PRIDE days?
depends on whether fedor retire under the ufc brand, if not nobody will even remeber fedor in 10-20 years time,
people remember
the American Basketball Association, Negro League Baseball, etc.
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jun 23, 2010 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions
oopth
I see this point was already made upthread
http://fightdrinker.blogspot.com
by some schmuck in texas on Jun 23, 2010 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I haven’t heard any Strikeforce reps building up Fabricio Werdum to establish him as a legitimate threat or even to talk about his credentials.
Too bad you missed Strikeforce: LA, they brought Werdum out for the crowd and Mauro did a promo with him. He lauded Fabricio’s ground game as “second to none”.
I meant in the media build up week. Not the underwatched, poorly produced, 11:00pm on a weeknight show.
But yes, they certainly did that.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
They’re doing plenty more media. Plus I’d bet ya a dollar that TUF pulled in a couple more eyeballs than that Strikeforce card.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
...well..um...shut up. ;)
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 26, 2010 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
the GOAT debate will never end
because a huge part of fedro’s legacy will be the fact he never fought in the UFC, to casuals anyhow.
"Live fast, die."
sorry i know this is way off topic but
has anyone ever bet on bodog before? i would appreciate any feed back,.
What do you need to know?
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
Seriously though...
How do the big four undo a decade of winning? in 6 months?
I think they’d have to defend a title for a few years at least.
We’re just now seeing the birth of the new UFC HW division.
Not saying that it does.
But that was then and this is now. We are in the now. This isn’t 2004. There’s a new wave of talent that have surpassed the previous generation. If you want to stay relevant, you have to fight someone that’s relevant.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Jun 23, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
End thread.
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
by DamnSevern on Jun 23, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Relevant?
JDS biggest wins are against Werdum(who Fedor is fighting) and Gonzaga who lost to Werdum decisively twice.
Lesnar’s biggest wins are against Frank Mur and an old LHW coming off a year+ lay-off.
Carwin’s ONLY relevant wins are against Gonzaga(name keeps popping up) and Frank Mur. Hmmm, I see a pattern developing.
Cain has beaten an overrated and one-dimensional Kongo, Ben Rothwell and past his prime Big Nog.
What is it about any of their records that suggest they are poised to succeed Fedor? Fedor is fighting the same level of competition as these guys but because the UFC hype machine is not behind his opponents, they are seen as less relevant.
If one of these 4 guys emerges as the clear #1 HW in the UFC in the next couple of years, then perhaps it will be time to crown the successor. As of right now, they are just 4 very talented HWs with lots of potential and a couple of solid wins under their belts.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jun 23, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Did I say that someone is taking his title of Best Heavyweight ever? No
A record does not make a fighter. Their skills and performances do. Fedor looked less than mythic in his last fight against a very one dimensional Brett Rogers. That performance coupled with Русская мафия M-1 Global’s “Management” have tainted his worth. You can’t be #1 forever in this sport. Whether it be time or an opponent, you will get caught eventually.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Jun 23, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And as of today, Fedor had overcome time and all his past opponents. Meanwhile, the top of the HW division in the UFC has yet to fight each other.
So if Lesnar beats Carwin is it because of Lesnar’s greatness or that Carwin really never was the dominant monster that he is portrayed to be(by Zuffa and a willing media)? Does beating Shane Carwin and going .500 against Frank Mur mean you are better/more relevant than Fedor is right now?
Had Fedor’s last 3 fights been under the Zuffa banner, this discussion would not even be taking place. He would be the clear #1 HW in the world, the most dominant HW of all time and Dana and Rogan would be hyping him in their sleep. Since he is not in the UFC, all his opponents are cans/washed up. He doesn’t deserve to be #1 because he isn’t fighting top UFC competition like Gonzaga, Kongo, Rothwell and Mir.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jun 23, 2010 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor’s last 3 opponents ranked #5, #2, and #8 (I think). Let’s not forget his bout with Barnett that was cancelled.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
And those rankings were for convenience
Arlovski wasn’t a true #2 and Brett Rogers’ was based on a knockout of Arlovski with no other quality wins.
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
Also please check out SBnation's Red Bulls blog @ www.onceametro.com
by Matthew Roth on Jun 23, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Yup I guess Randy Couture’s ranking was for convenience too so Brock’s ranking after defeating him meant nothing. Give me a break.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
No it’s pretty widely accepted that the rankings of AA and Tim were manufactured by WAMMA
Follow me on twitter @thisredengine
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by Matthew Roth on Jun 23, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Man we can go up and down this all day (and have) but Arlovski had as good a claim to number two as anybody. And the point stands that if you want to question Andrei’s ranking you would have to question Randy’s at the time of Lesnar, Nog’s at the time of Cain, Gonzaga at the time of Junior and Carwin…
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is that if people are discrediting rankings for an argument then it has to work both ways. It can’t just be used to discredit the UFC fighters when the same logic can be used to discredit a fan favorite like Fedor.
At the end of the day rankings are complete horseshit but my point remains that you can’t decide which facts are true and which aren’t when you can play the same game with anyone.
And for the bozos using MMAmath, since Fedor lost to TK and TK has lost to Mike Pyle, I’d like to point out that Fedor would lose to Pyle.
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by Matthew Roth on Jun 23, 2010 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Who’s rankings did I discredit?
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I'm referencing MyFistYourFace
This just happened to be in the string of the conversation.
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by Matthew Roth on Jun 23, 2010 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he was arguing that the top UFC heavyweights were fighting cans, just that Fedor’s fights would look more legitimate in the UFC. Which, whether or not you think Fedor is fighting elite competition, is true.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on Jun 23, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
And I agree with you but it just so happens that Zuffa is a lot better at creating the next Flavor Of The Month HW than anyone else.
My original point was that if you look at who the UFC’s top worldbeaters at HW have actually fought, you see there is very little difference in caliber compared to the guys Fedor has faced recently…other than being outside the UFC.
So, why is he about to be dethroned?
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jun 24, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think the Arlovski that fought Fedor is getting confused with the Arlovski that fought Rogers. If Arlovski wasn’t # 2 then who was?
Root for the home team jack ass
by KING FEDOR on Jun 24, 2010 1:28 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Prior to Mir, Carwin was in the same boat as Rogers and I saw no one complaining about that
Food goes in here
the thing with Fedor is he will cling on to that spot for maybe another year, once the UFC log jam gets cleared away it will tell us the new #1. Fedor is never going to fight anyone who is above 7 on the list now (Overeem may crack it with a win over Barnett who knows) but the UFC has the other 4 top fives guys battling it out right now. The guy standing on the mountain after all the dust settles will be the New number one
If Brock or Carwin win it will be their 2nd top 10 ranked win. Hardly worthy of being number 1 imo.
Food goes in here
re read what i said. I never said who ever comes out on top after July 3rd. I said that Fedor will probably hold the sport for another year and a half maybe two depending on how long it takes, but once the UFC’s HW division takes a solid shape (right now theres no clear top dog only a champion who no one knows for sure how he will fare against the other three guys below him) with one clear guy on top he will be number one.
This has quickly become a Zuffa conspiracy argument.
Therefore it is no longer worth arguing.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
FWIW
JDS biggest wins are against Werdum(who Fedor is fighting) and Gonzaga who lost to Werdum decisively twice.
Lesnar’s biggest wins are against Frank Mur and an old LHW coming off a year+ lay-off.
Carwin’s ONLY relevant wins are against Gonzaga(name keeps popping up) and Frank Mur. Hmmm, I see a pattern developing.
Cain has beaten an overrated and one-dimensional Kongo, Ben Rothwell and past his prime Big Nog.
FWIW
I would pick any of those bolded guys in a fight with Rogers. I might even pick Rothwell.
I’d probably pick most of them in a fight with Sylvia or Arlovski at this point too…
I know hindsight is 20 – 20, but it does count for something in people perceptions.
A decade of winning makes him the best ever
it doesn’t make him the best right now.
by simpsycho on Jun 23, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Damn.
One sentence, and you win the thread. Well done.
"If you go up there clueless, you're going to come back [to the dugout] clueless. It's that simple." - Nick Markakis
It doesn’t. He would still be historically a better fighter with a better resume. But in terms of pure “in the now” views…I’d drop him.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
So, who would you drop him for? And on what merit has his replacement EARNED a #1 HW ranking? Can you become #1 by beating Frank MIr? Is that who Fedor has to fight to retain relevance and his ranking?
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jun 24, 2010 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Brock, Shane, Junior and Cain are considered the best heavies not named Fedor. Since Fedor won’t fight any of them, how can he remain the top dog? I really don’t see how you can’t understand this.
by sadface on Jun 24, 2010 3:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Could unfold in one of several ways, but
IMO, if Fedor crushes Werdum as easily as he should, Overeem crushes bigfoot while waiting, and then Fedor overwhelmingly destroys Overeem, then I can see a case for him staying #1 for a while.
However, if whoever wins Lesnar / Carwin (Lesnar BTW, and rather easily) goes on to destroy Cain and JDS in fairly one-sided fights, then anything short of total dominance by Fedor in the scenarios above should cause him to drop to #2.
by BigDNotDallas on Jun 24, 2010 4:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Ya. I agree with you and with Brent’s post. The only issue I have is with the time he lays out. I think it’ll be a little longer just for the reasons you gave, Fedor fighting Reem and possibly Barnett. After that, who can he fight that he hasn’t smashed and is somewhere is the top ten?
by sadface on Jun 25, 2010 2:30 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, it was also almost up in 2008:
Brent Brookhouse: This is a hard fight to call. Generally we know what we’re going to get out of Sylvia but what do you get from Fedor in 2008 against a top 10 heavyweight? I’ll tell you one thing, I don’t buy this idea that the fight goes clinch, takedown, sub early in round 1. It took Fedor 2 minutes to sub Hong Man Choi and I think that Sylvia is a bit more of a challenge. I’m going to follow my gut rather than my brain and take Sylvia by TKO (cut stoppage) Round 3.
…and 2009:
Brent Brookhouse: I’m sticking by everything I’ve been saying up until this point. Arlovski can (potentially) work from the outside and do everything in his power to avoid the clinch. If he can get it into the second round I think he can land a shot that hurts Fedor and put him away. It’s a risky pick and one that may come back to bite me in the ass. But…Andrei Arlovski by TKO, round 2.
Just a matter of time until you’re right buddy!
by Sink on Jun 23, 2010 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Anybody got a Ron Simmons "Damn!" gif?
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 23, 2010 11:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I've never hid those picks...
In fact, I’ve often pointed them out when people talk about predictions.
For what it’s worth the Sylvia pick came the same night that I picked James Irvin to beat Anderson Silva. It’s probably the most amazing job of predicting two fights on the same night ever.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
at least you know someone out their is closely following your work.
by Bob Boblaw on Jun 24, 2010 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do you feel it’s a bit of a contradiction to talk about Fedor not fighting good fighters when you picked them to beat him?
Please direct me to where I said he hasn’t fought good fighters. I never said that. I thought Sylvia’s height would be a problem for him, it wasn’t. I thought Arlovski would outbox and cut him up. He did outbox him but he got knocked out something fucking fierce. I base picks on matchups and the way I see the fight playing out in my head (also, I like to occasionally make picks to get people talking).
Sylvia and Arlovski were very good fighters. The issue isn’t that Fedor is fighting bad fighters, it is that he isn’t fighting THE BEST fighters.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 24, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
le sigh...
Let’s take an objective look at things.
Werdum is the 4th top10 opponent Fedor has faced IN A ROW.
Now let’s contrast that with the current resumes of ‘the big 4’ (are these guys the Celtics now?)
Brock Lesnar – Carwin is the 2nd ranked opponent he’s ever fought
Shane Carwin – Lesnar is the 2nd ranked opponent he’s ever fought
Cain Velasquez – 1 ranked win streak
Junior dos Santos -1 ranked win (Werdum), zero in a row
Obviously these are great prospects, but these unproven guys are fighting for #1?
Why?
And so what if they beat each other. What does that prove?
Now obviously rankings are subjective as well, but if you don’t use them then what do you use? Revisionist history is easy when you have no context.
This article just seems short-sighted to me.
Agreed!
But don’t start using facts to support your argument.
"It would appear that the strain was more than he could bear".- Doc Holliday
by MyFistYourFace on Jun 24, 2010 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Fedor is fighting fringe top ten guys and will continue to as long as he’s not in the UFC. Brock, Shane, Cain and JDS will be fighting each other and (whether you like it or not) they will be ranked higher. This isn’t that hard to understand.
If Jordan decided to play in a euro league instead of playing baseball, people would eventually start considering other players to be greater. The longer MJ stayed away the more people would question if MJ was on top simply because he wasn’t playing in the league that is accepted as the best basketball league with the best talent.
Fedor is the best, but he’s not in the top league, so we have to question if there is another fighter who we can now consider the best heavyweight fighter. Because that fighter is constantly fighting the highest level of competition, but Fedor will not be.
by sadface on Jun 24, 2010 4:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't give a poop about rankings...
Roger was ranked 8 when Fedor beat him, but I am confident that Kongo would destroy Rogers and his entry level striking, poor footwork and no gound game.
as of late… the dude is nothing but a glorified can crusher. fedor will be irrelevant soon, wasting his time with strikeforce and m-1. totally disgusting!
That of course assumes that you have to buy into rakings that have been a joke for years and have guys like Barnett incredilby high when he hasn’t beaten anyone to earn that ranking.
The repeated way people trot them out like their gospel is ridiculous, the fact is the UFC has the best HW’s so whoever is holding their belt is the best period. You can’t live off reputation in a sport that changes by the year that’s the disconnect alot of us seem to be having here people wanting to cling on to the past and not dealing with the now.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
Have Fedor fight a live Bear!
Problem solved.
"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard
He did and this was the result...
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
by Noah'sArk on Jun 24, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You guys think Fedor lovers are bad? Watch this...
All paths end at Brock Lesnar. The man is going to eat Carwin, and then shove Cain into the turd that Brock dropped after Carwin was digested. JDS is going to get derailed by Roy Nelson and all you love will have been misplaced.
BROCKLESNAR!
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 24, 2010 12:12 AM EDT reply actions
For the record, I don’t really think all of that. But people are doing some serious overselling of Carwin as a fighter. On top of that, I don’t feel that Cain would fare any better than the rest of Lesnar’s opponents. I honestly think that if any one of these guys are going to sit atop the Heavyweight division for any stretch of time, it’s Lesnar. And if Carwin catches him and ends his title reign, get ready to see what we’re seeing in the LHW division, a bunch of hot potato with the belt, tons of champs with one or two defenses before losing.
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 24, 2010 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
And yeah, I’m taking Roy over JDS too. I’m also thinking Werdum is gonna crash the Fedor party. Pretty much everything that people expect to happen, is gonna get flushed down the shitter.
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 24, 2010 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I think whoever wins the Carwin/Lesnar fight is pretty much going t stay the champ for a long time.
Also, I think people are doing some serious underselling of Carwin. Let’s just say Carwin manages to stop Lesnar’s takedowns or gets up and knocks him out, I don’t see how anyone in that division can possibly beat him.
Same goes for Lesnar. If he manages to takedwon Carwin and hold him there and GNP to a victory, nobody is stopping him.
The only person I would ever pick against those guys is Fedor if he manages to win his next two fights.
"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" - Philippians 4:13
I’m not sure why I’m getting into it, I made a fanpost breaking down the whole Lesnar/Carwin fight. One of my personal favorites.
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 24, 2010 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions
So far Brock has beaten only one active top 10 opponent
Min Soo Kim – Non Ranked – Win
Mir I – Non ranked on Feburary 02 2008 – Loss
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-11182
Heath Herring – Non ranked on August 13th – Win
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-14022
Randy Couture – Non ranked on September 11th ( due to M-1/UFC conflict and inactivity, previously number 3) – Win
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-14364
Frank Mir – Ranked number 4 on May 28th 2009 – Win
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/2/Sherdog-Official-Mixed-Martial-Arts-Rankings-17654
Food goes in here
he retired Herring in his third fight
amazing
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
So Herring went downhill post Lesnar so by Anti-Fedor logic that victory means nothing because people are trying ti discount the Rogers, Sylvia and Arlovski wins because they went downhill. Double standard no?
Food goes in here
We don’t know if he went downhill or not, we do know that he has not stepped in the cage since. Was Herring ranked when Brock beat him like a five year old in K-mart?
He was not ranked
And he looked fat and sloppy in that fight, not the same Herring that fought Fedor
have we all forgotten Jake O'Brien?
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 24, 2010 12:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We're trying to
I rarely tweet
I less-rarely write
"I ain't having it" - Buster Posey, hosing folks down
unless he fights in the UFC
he won’t be the best ever. PRIDE is old and dead…long dead now. Strikeforce isn’t nearly the same sort of competition the UFC is. He could just switch to the UFC, but he cares too much about playing chess with his kids and praying in church…obviously the words of a true top #1 heavyweight…he doesn’t have to prove anything to anybody, just do whatever he wants and simultaneously be the best ever…makes sense.
BTW you fedor lover’s obsession borders on homoerotic. Just give it up already, jesus christ.
I really do think he'll go down as one of the greatest ever if not the best ever
I really just feel like the story of this part of current MMA isn’t told until he fights some if not all of the top 4 UFC HW and Overeem.
Just get kinda tired of trolls and fanboys who find any way they can to deny it, mostly due to veiled resentment of the UFC, which was probably born from veiled PRIDE resentment from other trolls lol.
Don’t care, just make the fights.
Great article
The survivor of Carwin/Lesnar/Cain/DosSantos will be the top in the sport.
www.mmaranting.com
Question is though, what if there is no one survivor, what if it’s: Carwin < Lesnar < Velasquez < dos Santos < Carwin? Or something similar.
Then so be it. Look at the light heavy division; Chuck —> Rampage —> Forrest —> Evans —> Machida —> Rua. The UFC is the brand, the champion is fairly irrelevant.
by sadface on Jun 25, 2010 2:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
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