Why Fedor, Contrary to Fan Claims, Still has "Something to Prove"
by David Castillo on Jun 21, 2010 6:57 PM EDT
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Print"Fedor has nothing left to prove"
It's a statement as odd as it is misguided. For one, it ignores the principle of what it means to be the champ. Being the champ isn't just about the belt that symbolizes your position at the top: it's also about the signals it sends to each challenger who would enthusiastically dare to take it from you. Right now GSP is the champ in a division he's essentially cleaned out. But people rightfully give him props for not just putting an inedible stamp on the division, but for maintaining it. Some people don't like it, and would prefer to see him at MW, but regardless, there's something to be said for excellence. For achievement sustained, rather than temporarily attained.
This doesn't apply to Fedor directly, but there are indirect implications.
Between 2003, from when Fedor captured the Pride HW belt, up to 2005, when Fedor beat Mirko in their epic fight, Fedor was the greatest HW up until that point. This is beyond dispute. But everything past that gets somewhat murkier:
Win Brett Rogers TKO (Punches) Strikeforce / M-1 Global - Fedor vs. Rogers 11/7/2009 2 1:48 Win Andrei Arlovski KO (Punch) Affliction - Day of Reckoning 1/24/2009 1 3:14 Win Tim Sylvia Submission (Rear-Naked Choke) Affliction - Banned 7/19/2008 1 0:36 Win Hong Man Choi Submission (Armbar) Yarennoka - New Years Eve 2007 12/31/2007 1 1:54 Win Matt Lindland Submission (Armbar) Bodog Fight - Clash of the Nations 4/14/2007 1 2:58 Win Mark Hunt Submission (Kimura) PRIDE - Shockwave 2006 12/31/2006 1 8:16 Win Mark Coleman Submission (Armbar) PRIDE 32 - The Real Deal 10/21/2006 2 1:15 Win Wagner da Conceicao Martins Submission (Punches) PRIDE - Shockwave 2005 12/31/2005 1 0:26
I don't think it's valid to say I'm being hyper-critical when I call this resume up to present day, somewhat questionable. Let's ignore what's behind the numbers and names for a second. Zulu didn't belong in the ring with Fedor, period. Neither did Colemen in the rematch nobody asked for. In fact, neither did Hunt (who had just lost to Barnett), Lindland (not a HW), or Choi (also not a HW, technically speaking). Imagine GSP beating Hughes in the rematch, and then fighting Carlos Newton, Chris Leben, and then Houston Alexander, and that's pretty much what you'd get for a WW equivalent. There are two traditional counter arguments to this criticism, a) that this was just Pride being Pride, and b) that there was no one else at the time. The first counter argument is, to be blunt, just stupid. The fact that Pride had an aversion to number one contender matches for their champs (one among many reasons why Pride's death is a wound that quickly healed for me) is no excuse, nor is "cultural relevance", whatever the hell that means. Just because Japan "loves freakshows" shouldn't be reason enough to see Fedor fight someone not worth his time, or even the time of a jobber like Butterbean in Zulu's case.
The second counter argument is true in some cases, but it dismisses two fighters who were very much in their primes while Fedor was crushing the odd can: Sergei Kharitonov, and of course, Josh Barnett. Kharitonov might be a punchline these days (although Overeem might disagree), but back then, he was considered a potential, if not outright contender. If you saw his close but epic fight with Nog live, it was never more clear than in that fight, where he displayed a well roundedness unheard of for a HW in that time period: crisp boxing, a solid ground game, and a rugged gameness that I think would have made him a good fight for Fedor. A matchup with Josh Barnett goes without saying, and I'll waste my time and respond to the fanboy defense that "but Barnett lost to Mirko and Nog" by saying that a) he also beat Nog and b) this is hardly valid for any type of champ, let alone someone considered a P4P king. Fitch beat Alves before GSP fought the latter, but this didn't make Alves less of a contender, who made a better go of it than Fitch did. I hate cliches, but styles make fights, and Barnett, with his adequate standup, and a grappling game that wasn't chiseled by Hammer House would have also made for an interesting matchup.
Fedor's last three fights were certainly a step up, but even we if we ignore criticism in retrospect (like how Nog has done in the UFC, how Sylvia was liquified by Ray Mercer, and how Rogers was absolutely tooled by Overeem), Sylvia was 1-2 going into his fight with Fedor, and Arlovski, while on a nice win streak, still had the back to back Sylvia losses (Rogers is still green enough that much can't be said one way or the other). They're good wins, but they're not the definitive achievements of Fedor's P4P contemporaries. While the P4P debate is an argument for another day, compare that resume to GSP's last seven fights: Hardy, Alves, Penn, Fitch, Serra, Hughes, Koscheck. Or Anderson, who has fought nothing but contender fights since his reign as champ, and who has seen success in 3 different weight classes, and could add another when all is said and done. Do these guys have something to prove? Not by Fedor fanboy logic. But that's untrue, of course.
Werdum is a solid HW, but not a number one contender except by Strikeforce standards. Overeem is clearly talented, but there's little we know about him in the way of whether or not he's cleaned up his deficiencies: like his tendency to gas, or take a punch when the going gets tough. The fact is, the UFC has the bulk of the world's HW talent, so if we were to change the question to "does Fedor have something to prove against today's HW elite?" then yes, Fedor would have something to prove, as any great top fighter does, night in, night out.
This isn't to attack Fedor's legacy. He was the best HW Pride ever had, and they had a great stable of fighters. But this is to attack the notion that Fedor's current history is somehow beyond reproach. MMA observers have this weird desire to stick achievements on things like it's a game of monopoly. "Hey quick! Put him on the P4P list so can he defend his title twice and then go down in the history books as the greatest FW eva!!" Kid Nate's piece on BE's front page is one among way too many examples of MMA journalists/bloggers who want to contextualize history like it's got an egg timer. Fedor won't be the greatest fighter ever in MMA if he beats Overeem and Werdum, and to be honest, it's ridiculous to even label ANY fighter as such at this point in time (he would, however, be the greatest HW up to this point, which goes without saying). MMA's history is simply too short. Andrei Arlovski is 31, yet he's thought of as an MMA relic. Miguel Torres is 27, who only a year ago was considered a P4P contender, yet whose game is already considered somewhat outmoded. Let history take its course people.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Why is this a question people think needs asking at this point in time?
Again, I have no clue why people can’t just say “well, fighter A was the best HW in MMA up to this point, but perhaps the best HW fighter in MMA history has yet to be seen”
by David Castillo on Jun 21, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
History involves things that have happened in the past. Saying someone is the best heavweight “up to this point” is the same exact thing as saying he was the best in MMA history. That’s what MMA history is: things that have happened up to this point. Fedor can be the best MMA Fighter in history without preventing someone else from securing that mantle in the future.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 21, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
I maintain that the best answer to that question is
“We can’t tell.”
Because Fedor hasn’t faught top competition at a time when top competition has improved tremendously prevents us from measuring him against the top heavyweights of today.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Agree with a lot of what you wrote. Especially:
it’s ridiculous to even label ANY fighter as such at this point in time (he would, however, be the greatest HW up to this point, which goes without saying).But I do have a minor objection; the complain that Lindland nor Mark Hunt belonged in the ring with him. While this is true, it ignores the fact that Lindland was a replacement for Jeff Monson, who had Visa problems. And that Mark Hunt was scheduled as Fedor’s opponent only after Josh Barnett and Mirko Cro Cop both turned the fight down.
Do you remember their specific reasons? Not being snarky. Just asking.
Although it should be said, Fedor has always been carefully managed. The idea of him ducking fights is too silly to even address, so I’ll just defer to Luke Thomas’ blackjack analogy when it comes to Fedor’s management.
by David Castillo on Jun 21, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree with the fact that it’s too early in the short history of mma to say any fighter is the goat. up to this point he is definetly one of the greatest ever and the best hw up till now, but fighters like jack johnson and jack dempsey were once considered the greatest hw boxer’s of all time, but were eventually surprassed by the likes of joe louis and muhammed ali. to think fedor will never be surprassed is jumping the gun a bit.
i think 10 -15 years from now, whomever is considered the greatest UFC hw ever will be considered the goat hw BY THE GENERAL MASSES. as will the greatest p4p fighter.
Saying he’s the best of all time doesn’t in any way negate the possibility of someone surpassing him in the future.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 21, 2010 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Finally someone who isn’t just itching to say Fedor is the best fighter of all time. It’s crazy how that can be on the front page, like there’s no arguing with it or something. Anderson IMO has a better resume.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jun 21, 2010 8:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
indeed
"Players are gods, the stands are the pews, football is the new religion."
by DamnSevern on Jun 21, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
This I like.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 22, 2010 2:24 AM EDT up reply actions
"Pride's death is a wound that quickly healed for me"
You and me both, brother.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 22, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
No Carwin love?
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Jun 22, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor has nothing to prove to anyone.
He is one of the greatest ever, mainly because he dominated the infancy era of MMA as a fighter who is basically what the mold of fighters is today. He was WAY ahead of his time. Not sure exactly how he has anything to prove to anyone. Simply because other fighters exist in this new era of fighting? He’ll go down as one of the all-time greatest fighters ever, period.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 21, 2010 9:10 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
You said what I wanted to say in actual words that make sense.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
A good comparison for Fedor may be Babe Ruth. Have there been better players since him? Many would argue that he would have a hard time competing with Mays, Mantle, Williams, and Bond (before the steroid scandal discredited him) in their respective eras, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that he represented a seismic shift in the way and level the game was played.
the articles about how fedor isn’t proving that he’s still the best heavyweight in the world. he actually addressed what you said, that he is an all time great but it is unkown whether or not he is still the best and he has to prove it. : /
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jun 21, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This was already addressed but I guess we'll give it another shot
I don’t understand how people continue to miss the point.
Fedor doesn’t have anything to prove as a legend of the sport, or as the best HW this young sport has seen up until this point. I’ve said as much, word for word.
However, he has as much to prove as EVERY fighter that steps into the ring/cage. He has to prove that he’s still capable of competing. What more is there to this very basic concept? GSP has nothing left to prove at WW. Should he up and retire just so fanboys can call him the GOAT, while prospects are never given the chance to prove themselves against the best while GSP is in his prime no less (?)….some may argue Fedor isn’t as good as he once was, but if he has, he’s shown very few indications.
It’s not about what Fedor has to prove historically, so much as it’s about what Fedor has to prove intrinsically. It’s like you deliberately ignored the basic premise of my fanpost. I don’t get how people can be fine with him fighting Rogers, and Werdum, yet when it’s asked if he can fight in the UFC division, where most of the best HW’s are, oh well “but Fedor doesn’t have anything to prove”. It’s one of the lamest copouts. It’s why people won’t be satisfied with Floyd’s career if he doesn’t fight Pacquiao. This isn’t to compare the two cases so much as it’s to emphasize that the best should always be fighting the best, and Fedor hasn’t always done so. It’s not meant to surround Fedor’s career with questions marks, so much as it’s to surround the idea that Fedor is the greatest fighter to ever live, past, present, and future with question marks.
by David Castillo on Jun 21, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
people here
have a knack for missing points
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jun 21, 2010 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
people for some reason get really defensive when it comes to Fedor
probably from years of defending PRIDE back in the day.
I completly agree with you, rec’d
"Your not gonna jab and shoulder roll your way away from Brock Lesnar; He is gonna fuck you." - Joe 'High as Fuck' Rogan
Buddy, I think you're misinterpreting what "has to" means.
“Has to” is basically a demand, an obligation that must be met, a requirement. Your whole argument is based on a subjective requirement that you have.
I don’t think he “has to” do anything, but that’s mainly because I view this sport (and all sports) without a sense of entitlement. I’m just glad I got to be a part of the experience.
Dude, Fedor has been fighting for a DECADE. For TEN YEARS he has eaten, breathed & slept MMA and won all of his fights (don’t even bring up Kosaka, it’s beneath you) . He does not “have to” do a DAMN THING. He has proven to his contemporaries that he is The Greatest, and that is all that intrinsically matters.
Yeah, I looked up intrinsically. I had to, to make sure it meant what I thought it meant. You’re seriously arguing that Fedor still “has to” prove that he “belongs to the essential nature or constitution (Webster’s)” of MMA or being The Greatest?
Fedor doesn’t celebrate. He doesn’t gloat. He has composed a record that will likely never be matched. He is a positive influence in the world of MMA. His contemporaries regard him as The Greatest. He’s respectful and a good sportsman. He’s chubby. And he likes ice cream. And Cosby sweaters.
Fedor Emelianenko is the greatest for more reasons that just his record.
As for the whole Brock/Fedor thing, look…Even if Brock beats Fedor one time (I doubt it, but I’m biased), it doesn’t necessarily make him the better fighter. I mean, is Daiju Takase (no offense) better than Anderson Silva? Is Matt Serra (no offense) better than Georges St. Pierre? Is Jens Pulver (no offense) better than B.J, Penn?
3 more things :
1. Full disclosure, I am a huge Fedor fan.
2. Sorry about the long rant.
3. Sorry if I’m coming across as overly aggressive, I’m just a bit cranky today. :P
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you're misinterpreting my entire point with semantics
I understand what Jordan Breen means when asked “who has the worst fans? GSP, or BJ Penn?” to which, Breen, always the pragmatist, answers: “Fedor fans”.
This is the bagillionth time my posts have been responded to with lame slogans about Fedor’s greatness, and what the man personally thinks, or what others think of him. He makes a living beating people up with his fists. The way his fans speak of him you’d think he was Richard fucking Feynman.
Yes, I’m cranky too so I’ll repeat myself for the third time and make it short: having something to prove as a prizefighter means acting the part of the professional fighter. It means, you train, sometimes harder than others, make weight, and collect your paycheck with a violent display of martial arts. If you’re a prospect, you fight cans until you’re ready. If you’re a gatekeeper, you stick around to be the litmus test for the contenders. And if you’re a champion, you fight the contenders until they’re done with you, or you’re done with the sport. It’s all that intrinsically matters in sport: the spectacle of competition.
by David Castillo on Jun 22, 2010 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
“all that intrinsically matters in sport: the spectacle of competition.”
Fixed it for ya buddy, free of charge. :)
And I get your point. By your standards, Fedor should go out of his way to fight the best. If he doesn’t, then by your standards he’s not The Greatest. I get it. What I’m arguing is that your standards are a subjective viewpoint and just because you state your case with conviction it doesn’t necessarily make it fact. He obviously still has “something to prove” to you as stated in your title, but again, that’s your own issue that you’ll have to resolve internally.
I stated plenty of reasons why Fedor is regarded as The Greatest, and you chose to ignore them all. That’s cool, I didn’t really expect much else, considering the authortarian tone of your whole piece. (It was well thought out and well written though, kudos)
I just feel that the people who are active participants in any given medium are the ultimate authorities of said mediums, and in MMA, Fedor is regarded by a large majority of his peers as The Greatest. Thats enough for me.
It may just be that sports fans in general are a very entitled bunch and will just always see things their way. I can dig it, different strokes I guess. I just don’t feel a sense of ownership over these people, nor a need to tell them what they should and shouldn’t be doing to “prove themselves”. I think being the only mixed martial artist ever to go 10 years without honestly being defeated is pretty fucking amazing. Never happened before, and probably will never happen again. But hey, that’s just me.
By the way, in all the fights you posted in your article, Fedor finished all of his opponents inside 2 rounds. Just sayin’.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions
The only lame slogan here is:
He has to prove that he’s still capable of competing.
If he signs a damn contract to fight someone, sure. But if he’s on hiatus with tons of fans blabbing about how he should fight Brock Lesnar, he doesn’t have to prove a thing.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 22, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Totally agree...
brave of you to post this. Definately a tender subject.
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac
IF YOU CANNOT WRESTLE, FIND ANOTHER PROFESSION...
Why does he HAVE to prove he’s still capable of competing? I don’t understand this ridiculous methodology at all. Everyone is in an uproar over his management, but the fact of the matter is that Fedor has NEVER seemed enthusiastic about fighting. In fact, he’s probably one of the few who really shows no huge passion to beat the shit out of guys on a day to day basis while trying to attain the “GREATEST EVER!” moniker.
It’s a new era, and Fedor isn’t an idiot. We can sit around blabbing about how he’s ducking this guy or that guy, but at the end of the day — Who gives a shit? If he doesn’t want to fight those guys now, so be it. It’s up to him. He doesn’t HAVE to do a damn thing for anyone.
It’s pretty easy to be fine with him fighting Rogers and Werdum. Fedor himself doesn’t really care about the titles, belts, or fame. It’s rather obvious in interviews that the man answers to noone, and has no real interest in these discussions. Why should he give a shit about any of us? He’s fighting for the money, and that’s it. Sure, he talks about fighting for Russia, but in reality — he’s always said he didn’t see it as a passion.
yet when it’s asked if he can fight in the UFC division, where most of the best HW’s are, oh well "but Fedor doesn’t have anything to prove". It’s one of the lamest copouts. It’s why people won’t be satisfied with Floyd’s career if he doesn’t fight Pacquiao.
Lamest copout? Who gives a shit about whether or not Fedor fights Lesnar down the road? It’s not up to you or me, and if he doesn’t… oh well. That’s the problem with everyone. They act like Fedor owes it to them to fight all these top guys. Maybe the guy doesn’t want to. Maybe he thinks he will get beat. So what.
It’s like people trying to send Ken Shamrock off into the sunset a couple of years back. Newsflash: It isn’t up to us. It’s up to the fighter and the commissions allowing them to fight. Fedor can do whatever he wants. He doesn’t have to prove anything to anyone. It’s his life, stop trying to dictate to people that he HAS to prove something. Nobody has to prove anything.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Jun 22, 2010 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i dont get why this is green. it completely misses the point of the article.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jun 22, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Quick question
I know this you addressed this in your final paragraph, and that’s fine. But lets say Fedor goes through this class of heavyweights and goes let’s say, 1 and three. Does that hurt his legacy?
I would answer no. It just means he got old and couldn’t compete with a new generation. He still dominated his generation like a champ.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
That would make it clear that while Fedor was the best of his era, his era is over.
The problem right now is that we don’t know if Fedor’s era is over. It’s possible that he’d dominate all of the UFC’s heavyweights just like he’s dominated everyone else. That Lesnar and Dos Santos are miles better than Tim Sylvia ever was might not get them close enough to Fedor to challenge him.
But we just don’t know that.
Given that Fedor has avoided (purposefully or not) top competition over the last several years means that we cannot tell whether he was simply the best at the time, or whether his greatness transcends eras.
No one disputes that MMA has changed a lot since 2005. If Fedor can dominate both then AND now, then he truly is the greatest ever.
But we haven’t seen him dominate now.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
thank you for that breath of nice clean fresh air.
I’m getting sick of the emotional and nostaglic connection some people have to this guy that clearly indicates to the non-deluded eye the psychological bias these individuals are guilty of without even being aware of it. Of course the man was the greatest, but there are too many ifs, what’s, could haves and should haves. Too many things left unproven and unknown. I know that there will always be a guy out there left to fight, but in this case there are about 7 I’d like to see before I’m ready to put my soul on the line and say he is the best right now. Not to mention how much it tears at my heart that I may never get to see the fights to answer those questions. Lastly, I do have to admit that where credit is due, credit is given, and he is the man. Period.
by Opposites Attack on Jun 21, 2010 9:13 PM EDT reply actions
I feel that the article really undersold Andrei Arlovski. Arlovski’s 5 fight win streak was his best in his career, and it is a good Heavyweight streak even in today’s standards: Cruz, Werdum, O’Brien, Rothwell, and Nelson. Stating that Arlovski was coming off back-to-back losses to Tim Sylvia and barely mentioning his win streak came off as just a way to try and discredit Arlovski which in turn discredits Fedor and his win over Arlovski.
Personally, I don’t think that Fedor has to really prove anything. It is obvious from interviews with Fedor that the fans care more about Fedor’s legacy than Fedor does himself.
gotta agree with that . two losses to sylvia is pretty terrible though.
by Hendo_One-Shot on Jun 21, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Why? When Arlovski lost to Sylvia, Tim entered that fight 20-2. Even when Arlovski lost to Fedor, Sylvia was still 24-5 with losses to such “cans” as Mir, Arlovski, Couture, Big Nog, and Fedor. Hard to argue there was anything terrible about them at the time.
by John Nash on Jun 21, 2010 10:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
the bar for measuring sylvia was pretty low at the time.
given todays standards I think that 20-2 would be more like 14-9….there just weren’t the people to show how bad he was due to lack of depth and talent. I don’t think sylvia declined I think the competition revealed who he truly was all along. Just my opinion tho.
by Opposites Attack on Jun 22, 2010 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s hardly proper to blame Timmeh for the lack of talent in the weight class. That’d be something like saying the ’90s 49ers were crap ’cause the AFC was so weak at the time.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jun 22, 2010 5:47 AM EDT up reply actions
You forget that
Randy Couture is 16 – 9 (or whatever it is now). It’s not great.
18-10 at the moment – but when you look at his record, few if any have fought such a list of fighters. Among those he’s lost to: Rodriguez, Barnett*, Liddell, Lesnar and Big Nog. Those he’s won: Belfort, Smith, Horn, Randleman, Rizzo, Liddell, Ortiz, Sylvia and Coleman.
You don't like wrestling in MMA? Go watch K-1.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jun 22, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s a combination of Arlovski’s losses to Sylvia, and what has happened since. While it’s not always fair to judge wins/losses in retrospect, AA has since lost by weaknesses he’s always had: his chin, and shoddy defense. This hasn’t changed. Arlovski is a talented HW, who just happens to have some serious flaws. Like I said, a good win, but not the type of win that deserves excessive cliches of achievement (“wow, now Fedor has nothing to prove to the UFC haters too!”).
by David Castillo on Jun 21, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem I’m getting is that it doesn’t seem like fights are being looked at during the time that it happened. A top Heavyweight like Junior Dos Santos had only one fight in the UFC, and Cain Velasquez was still an unaired prelim fighter with only two fights in the UFC. Arlovski was coming off a five fight win streak, and while he is now three losses in a row, I don’t see how that factors into his relevancy or lackthereof when he fought Fedor. It is a good win, but looking at that specific time period, and where Arlovski was ranked during that time (top five and some had him as the number two Heavyweight), I feel that this win is being overlooked because of what has become of Arlovski now. It took fighters like Carwin, Dos Santos, and Velasquez months if not a year after the Fedor vs Arlovski fight for them to really be in that top-tier Heavyweight ranking.
I love Fedor
but goddamn, I hate the TOPIC of Fedor. ENOUGH.
by judonerd on Jun 21, 2010 9:58 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
yeah
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 22, 2010 12:59 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Ummmmmmmmm…
Fedor does not give a flying f*ck about proving anything. He doesn’t care about rankings and the UFC and big fights. The guy is insanely humble and has basically said that he fights to take care of his family. It’s not about glory for him.
So the new defense against any type of criticism against Fedor is what the man is thinking? He also thinks there’s no place for women’s MMA (which has some great fighters), and believes in God. Are you a religious misogynist too (I kid, I kid!)?
by David Castillo on Jun 21, 2010 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Criticize him all you want – the problem is he just doesn’t care about what anybody thinks.
by MMABookworm on Jun 21, 2010 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You sure do...
enough to curse on an mma thread in defense of him.
Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac
IF YOU CANNOT WRESTLE, FIND ANOTHER PROFESSION...
Great article, the myth and delusion that surrounds Fedor sometimes is amazing to me sometimes. People get so caught up in trying to cheerlead that they can’t step back and look at things the way they are. You want to claim to be the best and you’ve not only taken off years from top fights but also don’t fight for the best org and division you can’t be the best. Fedor has alot to prove just like every guy people claim is the best, you don’t get to retire your crown after a couple of wins you have to keep winning and beating the best to continue to be called the best.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
The fact of the matter is that if Fedor doesn’t fight what is overwhelmingly the highest level MMA organisation since Pride went under, his status as GOAT is always going to be under debate. For his time? Most definately. Of all time? People will argue both sides, and legitimately.
If he came to the UFC and omgwtfpwned 2 or 3 top HW fighters, GOAT status would be assured and only the most rabid anti-Fedor types would argue otherwise.
slightly off topic but it does have to do with fedor...
does anyone know what he finds so negative about the ufc? Not speculation or opinion, but what he truly thinks. I guess that it’s the way they hype the fights by focusing on feuds, focusing on trash talk and tearing down the opponent rather than being respectful. But truly, for every trash talker there is a GSP, a franklin, a carwin, and while brock may rub fedor the wrong way, what about carwin? Cain? Jds? These guys are respectful class acts, professionals that are great ambassadors to the sport.
and I see a lot of people saying he doesn’t owe us anything. I find that patently false. If you are a guy with the resume as fedor, the hype, the title of worlds best, I think that comes with a certain amount of responsibility. Responsibility to not bend over backwards for the fans, but fans make the sport. We pay the bills, we keep the sport alive. If the greatest fighter on the planet doesn’t owe the fans anything, then nobody else possibly could. If that’s what you believe so be it, but then don’t you think title holders, champions owe the fans a title fight? It would not be fair to run off with the title, and while I don’t expect nor want a fighter to take a liddell approach, I do expect someone of his level, caliber, with his reputation to live up to the will of the fans, the ones that worship him, the ones that pay him and elevate him to the status he has. To say he owes no one anything leaves me feeling cheated and I cannot be the only one. My heart truly hurts thinking that all my dream matchups are getting flushed down the toilet and each and everyone of us will be left wondering what would have happened. How would those fights have gone down. It’s just not fair and if you have passion for the sport and seeing the best fight the best how is it that you don’t feel the same way? How can you let him walk away with so much on the table, so many fights that I don’t just want to see but need to see. Not only for my own sake but the sake of every mma fan on the face of the planet.
can we start a fedor petition? So that he knows how many people need him, to quantify the level of disappointment and hurt he will cause by leaving us with these question marks. I am out of ideas but I’m just not willing to let go of that last strand of hope that he will do one last thing for the fans, not just for himself, but for us, and maybe that is selfish of me but so much energy and emotional has been spent on that man that I’m not ready to let go. I can’t let go. Please fedor….pretty pretty please with two scoops, chocolate syrup, sprinkles and a cherry on top. In TWO ice cream cones with a brand new sweater to get ice cream all over. I’m going to cry myself to sleep now.
by Opposites Attack on Jun 22, 2010 1:59 AM EDT reply actions
I say blame Dana White. Co-promotion with M-1 for 1-3 fights will not hurt the UFC. And they will not lose any money. Especially with Zuffa’s legal team behind the contracts.
UFC agrees to Co-Pro with M-1 til Fedor loses or retires, with the standard Championship clause included. After that the relationship ends. Fedor fights, wins or loses, questions are answered and it’s over. Easy.
Problem is, Dana doesn’t want it to happen that bad, otherwise it’d be done already. I understand where he’s coming from but hey, when it comes down to it, it really is that simple. Fedor’s not looking for the UFC. The UFC is looking for him. They simply don’t have the power in this particular instance.
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Conversation: Ed Soares and Dana White
White: The fuck do you want?
Soares: Just wondering if you’d like to have Anderson Silva defend your belt again.
White: What? He’s under contract to us!
Soares: See, that’s the thing. We noticed that you co-promoted with M-1 and gave them half of the gate, so we just filed the papers to form the Spider Fighting Championship. He’ll happily continue to fight for you… under the rubric of co-promotion.
And on and on and on and on and on and on and on
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 22, 2010 2:57 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Damn it’s nice to have you back.
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 22, 2010 4:16 AM EDT up reply actions
My question is, if this hasn’t happened to Strikeforce after co-promoting, why would it necessarily happen to the UFC?
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Jun 22, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, you didn't write Dana's reply to Soares
So how would Dana respond to Soares’ ultimatum?
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana's response?
Get the fuck out. The organization comes before the fighters.
When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com
by Derek Suboticki on Jun 22, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
That's exactly my point.
Dana would call his bluff, Ed would back down because he knows where the money’s at, and it would put all other high level fighters on notice not to try that shit. I think Ed’s smarter than that though, and would never even come at Dana like that in the first place.
Dana could do a one-off if he wanted to, it’s just not worth it to him. And Fedor is the only one who would possibly have that negotiating power because he : a) is considered the greatest P4P b) doesn’t have a pre-existing relationship/contract w/ the UFC and c) honestly doesn’t care whether or not he ever fights for the biggest MMA company in the world. That my friend, is hand. :)
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn you Subo.
Good point.
I forgot about precedent. :(
The only argument I have is that there’s not really anywhere else to go for the kind of money (contract & sponsorships) that Anderson gets in the UFC, especially considering his average viewer totals in comparison to the other UFC championship fighters,and even for the other champs, all the money fights are in the UFC. Fedor v Brock/Carwin/Dos Santos/Velasquez etc. has a way higher monetary appeal than would any fight(s) involving Anderson (except Anderson v GSP/Fedor…Imagine!?)
Like I said, I understand Dana’s POV, and I wouldn’t want to jump through all those hoops and deal with all the headaches and backlashes either. But when it comes down to pure nuts and bolts, Don Dana has the power and is smart enough to make it happen. It’s just not worth it to him. And I’m ok with that. :)
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 3:16 AM EDT reply actions
The funny thing is that Werdum is way more dangerous than everyone on that list of post-PRIDE opponents.
I think Fedor’s gonna lose to Werdum.
I make Fedor a 3:1 favorite
But bigger upsets have happened. 25% is still a decent chance. Fabricio could catch Fedor in a submission, it could happen. Fabricio could win by riding out a decision.
I think it’s more likely Fabricio gets KTFO going for a takedown, but anything can happen.
Fabricio is not a guy you want on top of you, just ask Gonzaga, Vera, Overeem and Fedor’s brother Aleks.
Someone that thinks like I do, what a surprise. Werdum isn’t gonna be the best in the world, but he sure as hell has enough skill to take out an aging Fedor.
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 22, 2010 4:18 AM EDT up reply actions
dangerous in what area?
Certainly not on the feet. And is he any better at BJJ than Nog? Babalu? Arona? Fedor’s eaten up BJJ dudes during his run. I don’t see any way Werdum wins this fight other than one of those fluke things that happens in MMA from time to time.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 22, 2010 6:13 AM EDT up reply actions
k bro, I’m sure you thought Matt Serra wasn’t dangerous to GSP in any area, especially not on the feet.
Oh, and there’s nothing fluke about winning by knocking your opponent out or submitting him.
With the arrogance of Fedor fans I hope Fedor gets KTFO.
Matt Serra's win over GSP is THE highlight of a Fluke Thing
You argue my point of “no way he wins other than one of those fluke things that happens in MMA from time to time” by highlighting one of the biggest flukes of all time. Brilliant, sir, brilliant.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 22, 2010 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
blah blah blah
underdog wins its a fluke, blah blah blah
by Body Triangle on Jun 22, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
nono
9-4 fighter who’s biggest career wins were over Yves Edwards, Jeff Curran and Chris Lytle KTFO’ing Georges St. Pierre is a fluke. +1000 betting underdog winning is a fluke. Having GSP win the rematch decisively proves it was indeed a fluke. I like Matt Serra. He’s a funny fucking guy and fights a fun style to watch. Off the top of my head, I can’t think of a bigger absurdity in this regards.
(in before Petruzelli/Slice, thanks Gus Johnson).
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 22, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
haha nah you're right
but i hate the term fluke. There are plenty of factors that go into a win, but it pisses me off to hear fluke. Yeah, you let your guard down GSP, you fucked up, and you paid the piper- better learn from it. Which he did, to ceremoniously beat the snot out of Serra’s ribs (which were previously full of snot).
I know that statistically it may be a fluke, but there’s a lot that goes into the sport that saying fluke takes something away from the fighters.
but i mean yeah, you’re right, it was a fluke by any stretch of the word
by Body Triangle on Jun 22, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Punching a guy in the head until he taps out is not a fluke. It’s what Matt Serra does for a living.
fluke
and you’re a terrible troll. try harder, kid.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 23, 2010 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions
lol okay
You’re discrediting a guy’s win by calling it a fluke…….look in the mirror, bro.
Let’s use a dictionary.
Fluke: 1. A stroke of luck. 2. A chance occurrence, an accident.
Let’s look at number one. Was Matt Serra knocking GSP down with a punch and then punching him about 50 times until GSP tapped out luck? How was the punch lucky? Did he close his eyes and say a prayer? Was it some crazy Ryu flaming uppercut punch? Nope, it was a simple right hook that landed in the general area targeted. Was GSP tapping out luck? I don’t see how.
Now for number two. Was it a chance occurrence? Well, yes. Everything is based on chance. Was it an accident? Can’t say Matt Serra accidentally punched GSP in the head.
It was unlikely, but it was not a fluke.
fluke.
keep on tryin, at least you looked up a word on dictionary.com this time. you’re still either a) a moron who can’t apply it or b) a troll who ignores it.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Jun 23, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think your vastly overestimating Werdum, he has a chance if he can get it to the ground but I see him getting picked apart on the feet and KTFO by Fedor.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
I would love to see Fedor in the UFC
I doubt we ever will but I can’t understand why some of the UFC heavyweights are valued so highly over possible non-Zuffa Fedor opponents by a large segment of the fanbase.
Werdum is a very solid heavyweight who I put on the same level as Frank Mir or Roy Nelson, not the best opponent to fight Fedor but certainly a credible challenger.
I think Overeem would do very well in the UFC, I don’t think he beats Cain Velasquez but I think Overeem vs Lesnar, Carwin, or Cigano are all very close fights.
In my opinion, Overeem is a more dangerous fight for Fedor than Cigano, Carwin, or Lesnar. Overeem has the size and strength, but he backs it with a dangerous well rounded attack that we haven’t seen from any of the top 4 UFC HW’s besides Velasquez.
Don’t get me wrong Lesnar and Carwin are both dangerous standing due to the power they pack but neither have nearly the technique or comfort fighting there that Overeem does, nor do they have years of submission grappling which could be vital for them against Fedor. Let’s be honest, Carwin has never had to defend submissions and the only meaningful submission thrown at Lesnar was Mir’s kneebar. Can anyone honestly write off the danger Fedor presents from his back?
Overeem has shown durability flaws in his career but Lesnar and Carwin haven’t handled heavy adversity yet so I wouldn’t be to quick to give them a pass.
Cigano is probably decent on the ground working with the Nog’s, but until I see him there i’ll always have doubts about his chances against someone with a dangerous ground game who can put him on his back. I hope some questions will be answered in the Nelson fight. Until then, I have trouble viewing him as a huge threat to Fedor.
This may not be a popular opinion but I think Josh Barnett from a talent and skill perspective is still top five in the world. Good wrestler, good striker, great chin, excellent submission grappling game. I think he’s a quality win on par with the top UFC HW’s.
I would love the see Fedor in the UFC and i’m not trying to discredit anyone, but I think Fedor still has top quality opponent’s to keep his spot at number one without the UFC, for a couple more years anyway.
You sir are making a whole lotta sense!! Werdum and Mir are both very comparable fighters in my eyes and I think Overeem would be Fedor’s biggest challenge too! I’ve been hanging for that fight for such a long time now. I hope Fedor can get through Werdum to give us the best chance of seeing that fight. Agree with you about Barnett too and let’s not forget bigfoot either. He looked so much faster against Arlovski than he had in the past.
And whilst I agree that Fedor deserves to be a clear favourite against Werdum, Im glad to see him matched up with a solid grappler. We haven’t seen Fedor’s ground game tested in a long time………..not since Mark Hunt nearly Kimura’d him. I still chuckle when I consider in the grand sceme of things how improbably Hunt beating Fedor by Kimura was yet how close he came.
If Fedor was fighting cans, Id be rooting for him to join the UFC as well but Im just as happy watching him fight Werdum, AA, Overeem, Rogers, bigfoot or barnett as I am seeing him fight Lesnar, Carwin and Cigano.
Were there all kinds of "Fedor doesn't owe us anything" posts back when the UFC was courting him last year?
or did anyone prefer he sign with SF to fight their heavyweights?
All I could find was this:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/7/30/968968/the-ramifications-of-fedor
I see both sides of the arguement..
I would agree it’s fair to state that:
Fedor is “one” of the greatest fighters in MMA history.. Win lose or draw from here on out..
I also agree that it’s a bit premature to label any fighter the greatest of all time, greatest in history, etc.. History is rather short in terms of years of competition at this point. 17 years is not that long in sport competition history; regarding MMA.
We’ve yet to see the greatest athletes perform in the sport, IMO.. Give the sport another 10-20 years when kids grow up training in the sport and go on to become professionals. Let’s wait to see the kind of pure all around supreme athlete take his or her chances in the sport while grooming for it since childhood years.. Spend years of time dedicated to fusing their athleticism with their trained skills..
Lersnar is a great athlete, GSP is a great athlete.. But they are not the greatest of athletes out there, even today. They are just the greatest available to MMA at this period..
Fedor is hands down one the best, if not the best fighter in MMA. But as much was said about Bill Russell in his prime, Babe Ruth in his prime, Wayne Gretzky in his prime.. Every great athlete in their respective sports has been surpassed at one point or another..
I understand the semantics involved with the term: “Greatest in MMA History”
But I think a more fair label would be “one” of the greatest in MMA history.. We can always use the fact that MMA never offered Fedor any true athletically gifted fighters.. Sure he’s had some great fights against tough competition, but he was ahead of his time.. He has never faced a “real” athletically gifted HW fighter.. Stick around long enough, and you run into someone younger, faster, stronger, and better than yourself..
Whether he retires or not, he owes nobody anything. He’s done what he needed to do and cemented his place in the history books from here on out. He could lose his next two fights and still, he will always hold his place for his accomplishments thus far. No one can take away what he’s already accomplished, even if his opposition is subjective to some. He did his job.. He fought who was in front of him and he beat them all up to this point. That has never been accomplished thus far.. He will always be remembered as the “first” of his kind.. There will be others that will eventually surpass his level of accomplishment.. Whether sooner or later, it will happen.. But he will always hold his spot as one of the greatest and the first to do what he’s done..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
Good post, and good points. Just one thing....
No one has surpassed Wayne Gretzky, nor likely ever will. He’s the owner of the most disgustingly lopsided records in all of sports. Sid the Kid’s great, but he’s not The Great One. :)
"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"
by RearNakedChoker on Jun 22, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The only way I see Fedor losing anytime soon, is/will be under either the SF or UFC rules. Probably a decision. If it were to be under Pride/Japanese rules, I doubt he’d ever lose tbh. The vicioussness of head stomps, knees to the head of downed opponent..elbows, ability to act without hesitating/consequences ect. ect. lead to Fedor being able to unleash an almost surreal beatdown on opponents, He didnt have to hesitate when an opponent 1st goes down. Heck you can see it in the Rogers fight when Rogers 1st goes down, Feds looks like he was about to let the kicks fly, but then stops himself/hesitates, Then pounces. unfort. Hesitation kills. With the tighter rules, he just doesnt have that ability to just go out an react. Either way, I dont think he has anything to prove to anybody, save himself, if thats even the case. I also have a hard time believeing that alot of todays top HW’s would be able to handle the Pride rules, especially the wrestlers/lay n pray peeps. Rules today I think have slowed things down abit too much, also Im just rambling on now, lack of sleep will do that lol…
How do you Know where Im at? If you dont Know where Ive been...Understand where Im coming from??
very good post. completely agree. and for the people out there saying fedor has nothing left to prove, yeah ok he’s already going down as the best hw in history (or up to this point as David said) because he’s had an amazing record and has beaten the best IN HIS PAST and accomplished things noone else has done YET, so yeah he really doesn’t have anything left to prove, but if he still wants to be considered the BEST NOW, #1 IN THE RANKINGS AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, he should be fighting with the UFC. cuz yeah back in the day PRIDE had the best hws and he took em out, but now UFC does, and if he wants to prove that he’s still currently #1, he needs to go over there. its like david said, if your the champ, your fighting to prove your the best and you should be fighting the best
what would help this arugment
is if you provided the Win/Loss record for the last 5 fights of each opponent fedor faced here to give greater perspective for how strong they were at the time of the fight. Were they on a winning streak? and if so, based on what fights? We they losing? Where were they in their career? I’d really like to see that information included here to make a better judgment.
by Opposites Attack on Jun 25, 2010 5:10 PM EDT reply actions
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