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Around SBN: VIDEO: Veterans Share Favorite Sports Memories

Strikeforce Channels King of the Cage: Fans Treated to an Amazing Show

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In 1999, as the entire sport of MMA in North America ground to a halt in the face of political pressure and cable company shenanigans, one man had a dream.  Terry Trebilcock didn't just want to promote MMA shows-he wanted to promote wacky and fun shows. At Indian Casinos. Whether it was raining or not.  And he wanted to package those shows into giant DVD sets that he would sell at Best Buy for the bargain price of $10.

King of the Cage was something special in those early days. I loved watching King of the Cage DVD's. They were singular in their ability to be both fascinatingly great and truly awful, all in the same two hour block. The mix of talent was, to say the least, unusual. The promotion featured local talent, plenty of fat super heavyweights wearing t-shirts to cover their heaving man boobs, MMA stars in between gigs, and fistfuls of rising stars (Quinton Jackson, Joe Stevenson, Diego Sanchez, and Rashad Evans were all King of the Cage stars before moving on to the bright lights of bigger shows).

Strikeforce_live_medium

More (and some classic fights) after the jump

Star-divide

It struck me last night, watching Strikeforce, that Scott Coker's promotion isn't a UFC clone-it's a new age King of the Cage. The amazing card last night was right out of Trebilcock's playbook.  Gritty So Cal guys throwing down with reckless abandon? Check. Former UFC star past his prime fed to a young lion on his way up the ranks? Check. Obscure foreign stars trading wildly in front of a confused crowd unsure who to cheer for? Check. Former UFC stalwarts doing battle in a main event that was amazing, but also probably inconsequential in the scheme of things? Check.

That's what makes shows like this so great. It doesn't matter that Renato Sobral is no longer a world class fighter, that he's never likely to challenge Shogun Rua to a rematch of one of the UFC champ's handful of losses. It doesn't matter that Cyborg is a one-dimensional brawler who wouldn't crack the top 10 fighters in his weight class on his very best day. With a show like this you can just simply turn your brain off. No worries about how this changes the MMA landscape.  It doesn't.  It was just guys throwing down in a cage.  And it was awesome.

It's  foolish for Strikeforce to allow comparisons to the UFC. By that measuring stick, they will always look second rate. But if you think of them as guys just trying to put on an entertaining Trebilcockian show—it changes the equation.

In celebration of this nisei KOTC-some diverse King of the Cage classics:

Charles Bennett v Jeff Curran - KOTC Redemption on the River (via fightrumors)

Urijah Faber vs. Bibiano Fernandes (via Rossonero1)


Quinton Jackson Vs Marvin Eastman 1 (via uk9951)



Super Heavyweight KOTC : Travis Fulton vs. Ricco Rodriguez (via FightXtreme)


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Faber! As soon as I saw KOTC, Faber’s who I thought of. His fights with Fernandes (that you linked, bravo!), Crazy Horse, Valencia, etc were all awesome.

You’re right in making the LOTC comparison to the current Strikeforce product for their smaller cards. I hope Coker continues down this path. A lot of hardcores want relevance, but THESE are the types cards that will attract casual fans to the promotion IMO. The heart of any promotion is quality fights.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 12:39 PM EDT reply actions  

Agree 1000%. We were talking last night and someone brought up how foolish it is for Strikeforce to allow comparisons to the UFC. By that measuring stick, they will always look second rate. But if you think of them as guys just trying to put on an entertaining Trebilcockian show—it changes the equation.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope they can keep this up. A 420k-ish gate is nothing to scoff at, and you’d have to think the show was profitable. A lot of people didn’t see the reasoning in running this show 10 days before the Fedor card, but I think they’re forgetting that this was originally supposed to be Mayhem/Lawler, which makes sense in that market.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they get the full license fee from Showtime for this event, I’m thinking it was definitely profitable. Payroll can’t have been more than $350,000. And then throw in the fact that the whole thing was an ad for EA Sports.

by John Nash on Jun 17, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

A friend of mine got to spend some time with the EA game. Says it murders the UFC game…

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've heard that from a lot of people I trust....

I’m still waiting to get my hands on it to make a decision.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 17, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

The videos...

aren’t doing it any favors. All the striking looks like the guys are underwater or gassed guys in the UFC game. The graphics don’t look particularly impressive either..

Maybe it’s got a world beating career mode/online mode that will make it worth playing. I think sales are going to be abysmal though without the UFC license. Even that’s not helping 2010

by Jason H. on Jun 17, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Babalu and Lawler alone cost almost $200,000, but you may be right. The way Coker was talking, it sounded like EA underwrote at least part of the cost of the show

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guessed at closer to $225 k for those two and $40,000 for Prangley/Kennedy, $50,000 for Zaromskis/Santos, $40,000 for Noons/Heun, and maybe $10,000 for the two undercards. So maybe a little over $350,000.

The EA thing is the best thing Strikeforce has going, as far as getting their brand out and carving a niche for themselves.

by John Nash on Jun 17, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Coker has never said they want to take on the UFC. In interview after interview he uses the same line. “We just want to put on entertaining fights that the fans want to watch”. It is a small overly vocal portion of the fan base that keeps trying to make is sound like SF is trying to take on the UFC. They are just trying to carve out a place for themselves. Dana talks about world domination all the time. Coker is far more likely to talk about co-promotion.

by j.villain on Jun 17, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s also 99% of the MMA media that never lets up with the comparisons, for better or worse.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure what LOTC means though. Lord of the Cage?

KOTC, obviously.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

This guy is LOTC

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like that Strikeforce is having these ‘fun’ fights. However, Kennedy beating Prangley actually has some meaning as far as his growth is concerned, and the fact that it was on this show and not a Challengers card gives hope that he and other Challengers fighters will be on the bigger Strikeforce shows. The Noons fight was his first fight in Strikeforce, so this was a good way to showcase and introduce him. If Strikeforce mixes in these prospects like Kennedy and Noons on the card with the established talent like Sobral and Lawler, then they could have something going for them.
As far as relevance is concerned, what could Strikeforce really do considering that they hardly have any top fighters? Besides pushing the prospects harder, I don’t really see HOW Strikeforce can mean much in the bigger MMA picture.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 17, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's just it

I don’t think they have to. They are, as a friend said, a super fight promotion. Why pretend to have divisions and titles and crap? There aren’t enough guys for it. Book the best fights you can and fill the undercard with crazy scraps. Like this…

Listening to idiots who want a “narrative” is going to put them out of business.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Listening to idiots who want a "narrative" is going to put them out of business.

I am sure there are a lot of readers on here who won’t appreciate being called idiots.

Fun fights are always a good thing, but at some point fans and more importanly the fighters themselves want to fight for something…

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fighters..........

…….want to fight for money.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Are you really implying that competition and being the best aren’t factors?

I think a lot of fighters would find that attitude disrespectful. Sure some guys are in it for the money, but like every other sport there is more to it than that.

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I don’t care if fighters find it “disrespectful” or not.

The superfight structure looks for the best fights and the best competition. It just doesn’t pretend that a promotion with a handful of fighters under contract needs a definitive list of contenders and what not.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Still though

Even KOTC had titles and a hierarchy. You can’t say that stuff is completely irrelevant. I agree that, if marketed as such, it doesn’t need to be the biggest factor in the promotion though.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

All sports thrive off competition and how competition drives the athletes. Putting on exciting fights shouldn’t be all that is required. Winning fights, challenging yourself and trying to become the best are important as well.

Super fights are fine, but without some structure how do you determine who is super enough for the fights? Almost every fighter in the world wants to win a title. That won’t simply go away because it doesn’t fit a business model.

Bellator is thriving because the format makes sense, there is just the right amount of structure and the fights are exciting. You can’t ignore structue and titles, those are a big part of the game.

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pride did it as as well. They hosted a whole lot of tourneys, but their belts weren’t the centerpiece of the promotion. Half of the time, the champion was in non-title fights.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that fighters want challenges. But the structure people are trying to impose on Strikeforce doesn’t work for what they are now. Pride is a good example of a promotion that looked to put on great one-off fights. That’s what Strikeforce should be looking for.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Funny story...

A friend of mine just did some work with Bobby Green, who recently won a title in KOTC. He was actually looking to try out for a TUF show, and couldn’t because being a champion kept him contracted to KOTC

Fun times

by Jason H. on Jun 17, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

KOTC titles had hierarchy? What is the schedule for mandatories? What were the top 15 rankings like for Warpath’s World Native American Heavyweight Championship?

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 17, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

You mean a ranking system like this?

“titles anda hierarchy”. They’re not mutually exclusive.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah, yes. Random and incomplete rankings. I like Mike Guymon: Champ most. Keeping the belt warm for him to come back to when he loses in the UFC next time out?

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 17, 2010 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

No one said anything about them having to be updated on their webpage. You were just implying there’s no hierarchy. There is.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

The hierarchy is meaningless. Its a facade. KOTC makes belts out of thin air all the time and just as quickly eliminates them. No one complains because no one cares. No one watches KOTC to see who is going to be the #2 contender to their light welterweight title belt.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 17, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the spirit of love and togetherness

I will change that to read “misguided but wonderful people” who want a narrative…

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

The critics are going to critique, but Strikeforce doesn’t have the brand recognition like the UFC where people will watch it just for the brand name. I don’t find a problem with Strikeforce having divisions and Titles though. Outside of pushing prospects harder (and the last Challengers show did just that) and having a stronger unaired prelims, I feel that Strikeforce is doing what they should be doing considering the shallow talent pool that they have.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

I think 100 thousand people that tune in for the Challengers cards religiously would say there’s some name value in Strikeforce. It might not be much, but there’s awareness of the promotion is growing (albeit slowly).

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is free MMA, so it doesn’t surprise me too much that the Challengers cards get 100 thousand viewers. I’m not saying that there is no name value in Strikeforce, and obviously, many MMA fans are aware that the product exists.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 18, 2010 4:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

I too, have several KOTG videos and treasure them...

and I really enjoyed last night’s show. I hope that they continue this way. Not trying to challenge the giant but instead put on good fights against good fighters. Never the best of the best and that is fine by me…

Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac

"The Iceman has officially melted..."

by punchdrank on Jun 17, 2010 12:41 PM EDT reply actions  

"KOTC", that is... spellcheck cannot help retarted ppl like myself...

Take ONE Karate class, if you're so into Karate... - Charlie to Mac

"The Iceman has officially melted..."

by punchdrank on Jun 17, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I LOL'd

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

that’s one of my favorite chains of self-correction ever. Bravo punchdrank!

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 17, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno if I’d call it an oversell. I’d just say it was successful in doing what it was designed to do…offer the viewing audience some entertaining fights. I’d say they failed pretty miserably in promoting the 6/26 show though.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really?

I enjoyed every fight. I NEVER enjoy every fight!

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, I enjoyed all the fights. I’m just saying, I didn’t wake up this morning thinking anything was particularly memorable.

by pud333 on Jun 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Obviously, the card being good, great or terrible is totally subjective. I thought the Noons fight was great, but I thought that every other fight was good. I don’t really see how any fights were slow, plodding, or particularly boring. There are SO many fights with the UFC, Strikeforce, DREAM, etc every month, so I feel that it is very difficult for a fight to truly be memorable.

by chrisbboy82 on Jun 17, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

You might have a case there. I might be a bit spoiled lately with the amount of riches in sheer numbers of good fights, that my level of expectations has gone up a notch.

by pud333 on Jun 17, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks Jonathan for posting these videos, I had never seen any of these. Fun to watch.

by WestbergIDFC on Jun 17, 2010 12:52 PM EDT reply actions  

There are SO many. We used to each watch one of the discs in one of those KOTC box sets and then report back. 85 % was horrible stuff…but it was worth it to share those few gems. Any promotion that consistently employs Charles Bennett is OK by me!

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I developed a straight up hatred of Joe Stevenson....

based on KOTC & GC tapes and DVD’s. At that point in my fight watching life the last kind of guy I wanted to watch was Joe with his straight up repetitive takedown, scoot to cage, GnP game. I’ve developed into a fan of his over the years but during that period I really could not stand watching the guy fight.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 17, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you even have to scoot to the cage in KOTC? Isn’t it only like 7 feet wide?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brent, I thought you loved wrestling?

:p

by judonerd on Jun 17, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

I've never actively disliked wrestling....

but for some reason Stevenson’s fights ALL being the same exact thing just pissed me off. Of course it may have just been a case of “golden boy” syndrome where the guy the promotion was trying to push just got annoying.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 17, 2010 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

yo brent

whatever happened to the Late Nite Classic Fights?

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shit, I forgot about that. That was fun.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

If people want them back I'll bring them back...

I enjoyed them but got side tracked by a personal situation and didn’t return to them like I intended to.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on Jun 17, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

bring em back, I say

hope your personal shit is resolved

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you got the time, I say bring em’ back. They were cool.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very nice piece!

The card was a goon night of fights and Miletich was a big step up on the booth.

That said, some of the odd side show aspects of the broadcast were not my cup of tea. I appreciate what they were going for, but I don’ like it.

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:04 PM EDT reply actions  

I was confused by Mauro starting the night at the podium and doing his best Don West impression. And the interview girl not only missed her cue, but then clearly had no idea what to ask King Mo. Is it too much to ask for talent that at least pretends to follow the sport?

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah.

That part was irritating.

They should try to hire Logan Stanton to do those interviews!!

If Dana won’t do it I will gladly watch her on Strikeforce.

Mauro gets on my nerves more and more each time I see him. I am forced to see every week too. He does a throw to the Bellator cards that we Canadaians get a day late. It sucks.

Not only do we have to watch Bellator a day late but we are also subected to Mauro. :(

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mauro IS Canadian. That’s the worst part.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I didn't know that...

Now I feel dirty… :(

Excuse me while I go vomit!

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yup, grew up in Abbotsford, BC. He has sullied my province’s good name with his lame catchphrases.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Werdum make Mauro look like Benavitis

by j.villain on Jun 17, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

just for using the term “Trebilcockian”

Good stuff!

But if you are stupid, you will be beaten with a stick - Proverbs 10:13

by Ominous on Jun 17, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions  

How is this news?

Good post, but Strikeforce has always relied on the formula of booking entertaining fights with what they have available.

Strikeforce Miami with Diaz-Zaromskis and Lawler-Manhoef, Strikeforce Evolution (Smith-Le) and Shamrock v Diaz were all entertaining cards that delivered. That’s always been SFs MO and yesterday proved it well.

by cyke on Jun 17, 2010 1:14 PM EDT reply actions  

It doesn't claim to be news

It’s not news. It’s opinion and analysis.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Duh, what I meant was last nights card wasn’t some major revelation. Its just the way things have always been with this org.

by cyke on Jun 17, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it's not

For God’s sake Strikeforce put on some absolutely horrid shows…

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

????

Did you not see the ones I mentioned above?

by cyke on Jun 17, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Of course

But this…

Its just the way things have always been with this org.

makes me angry after sitting through Bob Sapp in Tacoma.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do not besmirch the name of Jan Nortje! : )

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now defend that awful tournament with Bobby Southworth!

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hope you’re not referring to “Strikeforce – Four Men Enter, One Man Survives”. That was possibly the raddest pre-Showtime card they put on

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

SF ran a Challengers card in Kent last year, and are having one in Everett on July 23rd.

War Sarah Kaufman.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

The King of the Cage mascot looks very similar to the early UFC mascot doesn’t he?

"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard

by Bandaka on Jun 17, 2010 1:32 PM EDT reply actions  

KOTC had a real life guy who looked like he had swallowed every steroid in the state of California at once…

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

The mascot looks like a ripped Bas Rutten

by truck on Jun 17, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

The first show was “Bas Rutten Presents King of the Cage”. Really.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 17, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

There seems to be this ongoing meme of trying to put SF in a box. Why can’t Strikeforce be Strikeforce? They’ve carved out a pretty unique place in the MMA world.

The KOTC comparison is pretty insulting and anachronistic when you look at some of the joke fights they regularly put on. If we’re going for anachronism, I’d say Strikeforce is more like UFC circa 2005-2006: Obviously they aren’t experiencing the explosive growth the UFC did in that time frame, but their fight product is very similar. They’ve got stars on top of every division, and right now their priority is to create some order in each division so they can identify the top challengers and prospects. That search is going very well at 185 and under. The idea that they have no depth or “continuity” does not hold up under scrutiny. Even at 205lbs they’ve got something to start with. Considering they have talent at each weight that is highly coveted by the UFC, I’d say their importance is at an all-time high.

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 1:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh man...

I don’t think they compare with the UFC circa 2005-2006 at all.

This is a promotion that just kind of randomly imports overseas guys, has UFC washouts at the top of many weight classes, and somehow signed the best fighter in the world.

You’re right that they are unique, but KOTC is the vibe I had. You are right that it may not exactly be a compliment…;)

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

gonna disagree there

Heavyweight: Fedor/Overeem
LHW: King Mo/Mousasi
MW: Jake Shields, Jacare, and a surprising amount of depth
WW: Nick Diaz, okay he’s not a washout but was a UFC mainstay
LW: Gilbert Melendez

Strikeforce has cultivated or found some top-end talent that have no connections to the UFC

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’ve named one or two guys!

Arlovski, Henderson, Diaz, Lawler, Smith, Thomson…these are the kind of former UFC guys that would roll through KOTC as well.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

HW
Bigfoot
Brett Rogers
Shane Del Rosario
Sergei Kharitonov

LHW
Feijao
Antwain Britt
Roger Gracie

MW
Cung Le
Melvin Manhoef
Joey Villasenor
The “Afghan Killa”
Karl Amoussou
Tim Kennedy

WW
Andre Galvao
Okay, this division is pretty fucking thin from top to bottom

LW
Shaolin
KJ Noons
Lyle Beerbohm

My point is, it’s not a weak roster if you take away the people who’ve been affiliated with the UFC. And while I’d consider mid-2000s UFC slightly stronger, I think it’s wrong to slight Strikeforce for having fighters from the UFC. I mean, Nick Diaz and Robbie Lawler signed with Strikeforce in their primes and Dan Henderson did at the highest value of his career. If you’re gonna do that to Strikeforce, you have to do the same for the whole period up until 2007 when guys were shifting between the UFC and PRIDE

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's amazing

That you list three or four guys per division, some of whom are not anywhere near the top of their weightclass, and think you are making the point that these are NOT weak rosters.

They are.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

But not for a company that isn't even close to being the premier organization

I’ve just listed 23 guys that are either elite fighters, up-and-coming stars, or just plain exciting dudes even if they’ll never be a UFC champ.

What exactly makes this roster “weak”?

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s weak from the perspective of someone trying to slot fighters into some grand top 10 list of contenders and construct some narrative that leads a fighter up the card.

It’s great in the sense of taking puzzle pieces and putting them together to form these great and meaningless fights like Cyborg-Zaromskis

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won’t argue that their title pictures are usually quite murky. But anyone who suggests Strikeforce operates with a “weak” roster is flat wrong. Not saying you were doing that, but that it came off as though you were knocking them for being filled with random foreign guys and some UFC washouts.

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

They ARE filled with ex-UFC guys and random foreign dudes! That’s what makes the fights so interesting. It’s a weird mix.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL

I just think we’re on different wavelengths here

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I think he is saying is that because of who they use (UFC washouts and random foreign dudes) they just put on fun, bizzaro shows. That makes for better shows than trying to make everything a storyline.

I think we can illustrate this easily. Jon and you both can respond – which would you rather see? TUF 11’s finale at The Palms or Ken Shamrock fighting Pedro Rizzo in backwoods Australia?

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 17, 2010 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm a leg lock man

…All right minded people would see Shamrock-Rizzo.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

It depends on what kind of drugs I can get

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

No dice.

I’m staying home and watching The Big Lebowski

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

If MMA had a patron saint, he would weep. I nominate Jamie Jara for that position.

by VirtualBalboa on Jun 17, 2010 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who are you and what have you done with Jonathan Snowden?

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 17, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Knocking Strikeforce for using capable ex-UFC fighters is like saying UFC should be embarrassed that “Affliction’s sloppy seconds” are not only populating a bunch of their PPV events, they’re actually moving up the card.

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not knocking them for using those guys. They are good fighters.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, Lil Nog looked like a fucking world-beater last time out. Besides, nobody got bounced out of Affliction.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 17, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not kidding here

Bobbys good. Damn, kid lists them by weight divisions. I am impressed.

by taz66 on Jun 17, 2010 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

“UFC washout” is a pointless derogation when you consider that the UFC would love to have Thomson, Diaz, Lawler, Henderson, Arlovski, Werdum, Babalu etc… at their preferred price point of course. And hell, most of them didn’t even wash out in the first place, they left on contract disputes and disciplinary action.

Scott Coker comes from a kickboxing background and Strikeforce is aired on a boxing platform, so it shouldn’t come as a surprise that his cards are booked somewhat like kickboxing and boxing cards. The boxing sensibility is represented by the no-name prelim cards, but the main cards usually resemble a good K-1 or It’s Showtime card, only with MMA fighters. Yes, they will bring in overseas standouts with little fanfare and throw them right in with the domestic stars. In the future it might behoove them to build up those imports with showcase fights first, but the immediate payoff in the form of super fights is part of what I like about Strikeforce. They fill the main card of their flagship events almost exclusively with fights between stars, veteran contenders and young fighters with championship potential. They’re also working hard to build up their own crop of prospects and homegrown talent, but those fights mostly happen on the Challengers cards. Over time, the continuity from one big fight to the next in each division will only improve.

I’m not sure exactly when “relevance” became a rhetorical weapon in MMA (probably during the EXC days), but the constant potshots at Strikeforce are without merit. Their big fights are as relevant as anything, even if they aren’t generating the same kind of revenue as the big UFC fights. Sure, some of the matches they put on don’t carry a lot of meaning in relation to their title pictures, but the same applies to about 80 percent of UFC bouts as well. Considering Strikeforce probably doesn’t make even 1/10th the annual revenue the UFC makes, I think they do a great job of making world class fights on a regular basis.

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

In the future it might behoove them to build up those imports with showcase fights first, but the immediate payoff in the form of super fights is part of what I like about Strikeforce.

Me too! Did you not read my post?

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Except I’m not trying to portray those fights as quaint or pointless. Lawler vs. Manhoef, for example, was an important fight. It had real implications in Strikeforce’s middleweight division, and the world middleweight division. Just because it wasn’t built up with a reality show or a pair of showcase fights beforehand doesn’t mean it was less relevant than a comparable UFC fight (if there is one).

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lawler didn’t fight Manhoef on this card. He fought a past his prime light heavyweight at a catchweight. It didn’t affect the world picture one iota.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Manhoef/Lawler didn’t affect much either in the world picture, and wouldn’t have if Manhoef had won either.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

but it was a sweet fuckin fight

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m happy to say I was there and my jaw hit the floor. Could be the greatest come from behind win in MMA.

by rask4p on Jun 17, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lawler vs. Babalu was a lot like Franklin vs. Belfort — a make-work fight designed to fill a main event slot that needed filling. Neither of them really represent the norm for these promotions.

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don't know

Strikeforce loves to have fighters bounce all over the weight class map.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Franklin and Belfort were both coming off of wins, which is always nice for a main event.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 17, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like Franklin and Chuck?

Or Randy and Nog? Or Ortiz Griffin 2?

Chop bustin’.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Jun 17, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

chops = busted

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

MMA For Real

by Anthony Pace on Jun 17, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

They’d love to have Werdum and Babalu back?

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I lol’ed when he followed it up with “at their preferred price point of course”

by Bob Boblaw on Jun 17, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Babalu's banned for life

And “as relevant as anything” is as puzzling a phrase to describe Strikeforce’s “big fights” as I’ve ever seen.

When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are in a confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift
Fightlinker.com

by Derek Suboticki on Jun 17, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Im surprised KOTC hasn't expanded beyond smaller shows

They were the perennial minor leagues of MMA before Strikeforce or anything else came along. They were essentially a UFC feeder as a lot of their guys went onto fight there.

Its surprising they didn’t move on to larger shows or have more fan recognition with the DVD sets and everything.

by cyke on Jun 17, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

They have an interesting business model. Maybe I will write about them at some point.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

That would be interesting.

by cyke on Jun 17, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The HDNet deal will surely help them expand at least a bit.

http://www.instrength.com

by Tim Burke on Jun 17, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

The thing with KotC shows is they’re done very smart. I live near the Soboba Casino and KotC has shows there all the freakin time. I also trained for a bit at a gym locally, and tons of guys would fight there.

Their basic plan is this:
- Stack the card with local talent and up and comers. Guys who are thrilled to be fighting pro anywhere and don’t care that they’re only making a few hundred bucks
- Often times, the guys get deals where they actually have tickets to sell. Almost like a pay to play sort of thing
- Get a few guys that are fairly well known, and pay them a few grand to show up
- Plaster the area with billboards, and advertise in the local MMA scenes

The fighters alone bring in a huge amount of people to watch them fight…family, friends, guys from their gym who roll out to support…you sign guys from 4-5 local gyms and you’ve got half the guys at each of those gyms buying tickets.

The events are low cost to produce and the tickets are still $35 and up. Plenty of people go and I think they’re making a tidy profit on each event. It’s a model that works, and keeps them out of the targets of the big boys. Nobody is trying to snipe their talent, they’re not paying out the ass to sign some big “name” that they need to fight, and they’re not getting stuck in contract negotiations with big name primadonna fighters.

It’s a pretty solid model. From what I’ve seen of the people running the show they’re doing quite well for themselves

by Jason H. on Jun 17, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting

Its still a big player in the minor leagues. These promotions are important for bringing young talent up.

by cyke on Jun 17, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Better to be king of the minor leagues and making a decent profit than overspending like hell to try to compete with the majors and going under after 2 PPV events.

Plus, as you said, it’s important to have a place for guys to hone their records. Hell, Joe Stevenson had over 30 pro fights in these local shows before he moved up to UFC. Guys are moving to the big leagues faster and faster these days, but with more and more talent coming in there’s a ton of guys to fill cards for the local shows

by Jason H. on Jun 17, 2010 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great info, I can also say, Strikeforce gives their smaller local guys tickets to sell as well. Deal is, you sell tickets at a discount to your friends/family/locals, you get a cut of all the tickets you sold. I love that for the smaller pro’s out there, not the biggest paycheck, but you can rack up some extra cash and helps the organization fill the seats.

"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi

by Kaleb Kelchner on Jun 17, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

KotC is kind of like Pancrase or Shooto. They’re content with their place in the MMA landscape, I think.

by smoogy2 on Jun 17, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree completely...

I like Strikeforce. I like being able to come home on a wednesday night and have a bunch of entertaining fights on my DVR that aren’t the best guys in the world, but they’re well matched fights.

I think where Strikeforce falters is when they get these delusions of granduer and try to grab top contenders. Strikeforce is a B-Level org….not an insult, but just a reality. The KOTC comparison is apt, although I’d put the level of talent above that a bit.

What gets frustrating is when you get guys like Fedor tied up in this org, and them being trotted out on network TV like they’re an actual top level organization. They’re not, and really they never will be. Stop trying to be a UFC competitor and stick to what you’re good at, Strikeforce!

The bigger they try to be, the harder they’re going to fail, methinks.

by Jason H. on Jun 17, 2010 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

" Obscure foreign stars trading wildly in front of a confused crowd unsure who to cheer for?"

This line makes me laugh and it is what I was thinking during the fight. I love Strikeforce events. I don’t understand why Strikeforce gets hated on by UFC drones. If you love MMA then why not love Strikeforce? Hopefully your attitude and refreshing outlook helps others gain admiration for this promotion. Thanks.

"Stop smiling you are about to be punched in the face !"

by Warhand on Jun 17, 2010 2:18 PM EDT reply actions  

It was cool and I'm a Babalu fan

but this and Leland’s gushing article is a stark contrast to declaring UFC 115 a bust before it even happened, citing scalping concerns as a big reason.

#Imjustsayin

by Revolver on Jun 17, 2010 2:29 PM EDT reply actions  

This is about the action in the cage. It couldn’t be further removed from an article about the UFC’s business troubles in Canada.

"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer

by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 17, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

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