The Fertitta Files: Sayonara Pride Fighting Championships
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 10, 2010 12:30 PM EDT
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We've talked about the UFC's foreign adventures this week, discussing mostly Lorenzo Fertitta's plan to bring the UFC to Asia and into mainland Europe. It's an exciting time to be a fan of MMA-this decade we could be looking at hundreds of fight shows taking place every year all over the world. But before getting worked up, it's important to remember the lessons learned from Pride, the UFC's first major Asian entanglement.
Last weekend, in case anyone had any wild pipe dreams, Fertitta killed the Japanese promotion. The UFC's owner put a stake in the heart of any potential Pride comeback:
Originally, when we bought Pride, we were going to keep it running. In fact there was an event scheduled and we were going to try to pull it together. The deal got hung up and we had to cancel that event. One thing led to another and it didn't make sense to keep going...you never say never, but right now we don't have any plans to bring back Pride. It's a cool brand and we are selling a lot of the merchandise. But one of the things we've found is that it's hard to rebuild that momentum.
Josh Barnett blamed the UFC's failure in Japan on a cultural divide. MMA fans in Japan already had a product they were comfortable with. They wanted Pride, not a UFC event with merely cosmetic changes and a different logo:
"The Japanese had no interest in it after Dana White said they were going to make changes to the regulations to make it like the UFC," Barnett explained. "Basically, everyone told me, `That's it, we don't want this. We won't support this. Pride Worldwide is basically just UFC in Japan, so we don't want anything to do with it.'"
This is what concerns me about the UFC's efforts in China and Germany. The UFC can promote successfully in a variety of locales, but they will have to make concessions to local style and custom. A cookie cutter approach won't work. The lessons of Pride loom over all future expansion efforts. Has Zuffa learned them?
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I kinda thought the Pride brand was hurt in Japan before the UFC came along.
by JeremyShane on Jun 10, 2010 12:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It was – had it been healthy, Zuffa might have never been able to buy it – but that’s not the point. The point is that simply trying to use the same kind of product – in UFC’s case, merely staging the same kind of event with the same look, sound and feel as they have used in the US – might not work everywhere.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Jun 10, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Hasn’t part of the point with MMA in Japan since Pride’s fall been it’s connections to Yakuza, tainting of the industry there a bit. Even Dream isn’t exactly a soaring company right now.
I’m sure they would have to repackage their branding, look and feel of what they do when they move to new markets, but I think it’s more than just “it’s the UFC” that’s a problem.
by JeremyShane on Jun 10, 2010 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re missing the entire point here. He’s not talking about why the Pride brand name is damaged. He’s talking about how the UFC needs to take history and locale into account when promoting a show in a foreign country.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
UFC needs to take history and locale into account when promoting a show in a foreign country
That is pretty much a given…
Jeremy even said
I’m sure they would have to repackage their branding, look and feel of what they do when they move to new markets
Uh, okay? I don’t get what you’re pointing out here. JeremyShane is missing the point by talking about Pride as a company and how it’s name is damaged. That’s not what this post is about.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I think you are missing the point...
You told dude that he didn’t understand and then you repeated the exact same thing that he had just said…
If you read the whole article, there is a quote by Josh Barnet talking about why the UFC was unable to continue with the on with the PRIDE name. This relates directly to what Jeremey said. Why are you condemning a guy for adding something to the discussion?
I’m not condemning him for adding anything. That’s quite a leap from me just saying I thought he missed the point. What I’m saying is that the article is addressing how much resistance the UFC received when they tried to run a revived Pride show there. So much that they ended up just killing the idea. Did the show die partially because of Pride’s past issues? Maybe. But it was his last sentence saying:
I think it’s more than just "it’s the UFC" that’s a problem.
where I thought the point is missed. I understood that statement to be along the lines of “Stop blaming the UFC for everything”. I was trying to say that wasn’t really the point of the post at all. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong….I certainly wasn’t condemning anyone though.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
When I did the “ufc” in quotes, I was trying to sum up the Barnett quote. Sorry if that was misunderstood.
by JeremyShane on Jun 10, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
How Pride was damaged as a company does work directly into the problems the UFC faced trying to run Pride in Japan and that is what the article talked about. You can’t say that Zuffa failed with Pride in Japan due to them wanting to change the rules a bit but leave out that Zuffa also failed in Japan with Pride due to the fact that the brand was so damaged to start with that it was already 3/4ths into it’s grave when they bought it. I mean seriously are we going to believe that Zuffa Pride failed entirely due to Dana announcing that they would use the unified rules like the UFC did?
I was just disagreeing with and discussing the angle of the second half of the article where Barnett was being quoted. Not with the whole article itself.
by JeremyShane on Jun 10, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If def won't work everywhere...
Events in each country would have to be catered to the home audience, especially when dealing with vast cultural divides. The same goes for all different kinds of businesses. Anybody with any type of business sense knows this.
There are some countries that will accept an Ameican mold a little easier than others, but Asia is a completely different ball game all together. That said, fighting as a product largely speaks for it self. People want to watch it or they don’t.
If you know you don’t have to / can’t doctor the product (rules), a lot of thought has to go into presentation. Presentation on TV shows and presentation at events. Everything from the lighting to the entrances, to the jumbo tron displays have to catered the local audience.
If things are done the right way, there is no reason that the UFC can’t be successful internationally, they just have to be diligent in their research and application.
well said
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jun 10, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Royale w/ Cheese
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 10, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
It was all but dead in Japan before the UFC bought it and it’s demise came by it’s own hand not Zuffa’s. The Japanese who wanted no part of a UFC’ized Pride were the people in the industry, by and far the general public was already disinterested in the product after the Yakuza scandal and Pride not having it’s prime tv contract anymore. In Japan any outside company is going to get a lot of resistance coming in, that is to be expected. Heck it probably didn’t matter if Zuffa had left Pride exactly as it was, they were going to get a push back just because they are foreigners buying a Japanese company. They may even have an easier time bringing the UFC into Japan than trying to run a former Japanese company under their umbrella there.
I definitely agree with this. I’m not sure if it applies as much to other locales that don’t have a rich history of MMA, but the cultural divide is definitely something they should be working at overcoming. Or at least acknowledging. That was one reason I found the ring girls in Abu Dhabi kinda funny.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Josh Barnett also says:
The UFC should be doing my laundry and feeding me breakfast in bed
Despite the fact that he isn’t a name that the masses care about and has tested positive for steroid 3 times. Never mind the fact that he isn’t even legally allowed to fight in the US.
Given the fact that he doesn’t seem to have a grasp on the realities of his own life, I wouldn’t think he would be able to speak for all of Japan.
Barnett's been in Japan for ages
I would think he is familiar with Japanese culture.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jun 10, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
He's been failing steroid tests for ages
I would think he’s be familiar with steroid tests…
by truck on Jun 10, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 13 recs
lolololol
come on, buddy.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jun 10, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Its crazy to think you would just take Barnetts word like that, eh? I mean its not like he has an axe to grind or anything. Its probably his unbiased opinion, but how can you really tell he isn’t making shit up?
by sadface on Jun 10, 2010 5:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He’s familiar with the parts of it that interest(anime, pro wrestling, etc.) him and he probably does have plenty of contacts in the fight industry but lets not act like he’s some kind of cultural expert here because that would be giving him too much credit.
right
he’s familiar with parts of it that interest him, like MMA.
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jun 10, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
He understands Japanese culture better than 99.3% of us commenting on this. I think that’s a given. And MMA is something that interests him…so I don’t see what point you’re making here.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
He understands the culture a bit better than my anime obsessed 13 year old daughter does, perhaps we shouldn’t be tossing around the word “culture” so readily here. Yes he does know the Pro Wrestling/MMA industry there (those two are basically the same) and yes on those aspects he would have some insight but on what the average Japanese television viewer would or wouldn’t watch on their TV sets I wouldn’t put much extra stock into his opinions. You don’t have to get all worked up trying to defend the guy here, lets just keep it in proper perspective.
Has your 13 year old daughter lived in Japan for years? I doubt it. I’m not getting worked up, I just find it funny that people would dismiss Barnett’s opinion because he’s a steroid user. The guy has some insight into the people and their leanings because he’s lived and worked there and has immersed himself into their society. Not a real stretch.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
No but then I’m pretty sure Josh Barnett lives in Seattle, he just works in Japan. It has nothing to do with his steroid use it has to do with the fact that we know we have to take anything the guys says with a grain of salt and that just because he has worked in Japan it doesn’t mean he knows what the average guy on the street there will or won’t accept out of their casual entertainment. Bob Sapp has worked in Japan for just as long if not longer but would we just accept his word on why the UFC couldn’t get Pride to work in Japan? Would we just accept it if he said that the Japanese wouldn’t accept a US product(being that he is a US product himself that became huge in Japan)? The big differences between Barnett and Sapp is that Barnett’s a better fighter but Sapp is much better at making money in Japan, still would we just take Bob Sapp’s word on anything Japan related?
So I'm not the only one with a 13-yea-old anime-obsessed daughter
Is yours teaching herself Japanese, too?
When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey
Actually she’s got into the vampire crap lately, I prefered it when she was more anime crazy because at least I could enjoy that too :D Of course the last time I saw her (she lives with her mom) she was talking about going to a cosplay convention and wanting ideas on who she should dress up like, a bit scary but at least she wasn’t talking about vampires.
I wouldn't call Barnett and expert on Japanese culture.
Barnett doesn’t even understand American culture and he largely talks out of his ass. PRIDE was failing before the Zuffa purchased it, if it wasn’t failing it wouldn’t have been for sale. Politics got in the way, not fans being mad about possible (yet to be applied) rule changes. That doesn’t make sense.
Noone in particular... I was speaking in general terms
I wouldn’t call Barnett and expert on Japanese culture.
I wouldn’t consider Barnett as a credible source of information on Japanese culture.
Especially when he is talking out of his ass…
He’s spent more time in Japan then pretty much all of us have. And he fought in these promotions. You don’t think he might have an opinion worth mentioning?
I don't think he should be considered an authority on the matter because:
1) He has a history of talking out of his ass
2) He has exhibited a clear anti UFC bias in the past
3) He ignores the fact that PRIDE was already struggling
4) He sources “everybody”, which means he sources nobody
I doin’t have a problem with the quote being mentioned, I have a problem with people taking as gospel.
Especially given that:
1) All initial reports stated that PRIDE would still run as PRIDE in Japan, with occasional crossover fights.
2) The exact changes that Zuffa was going to make in a UFC does PRIDE show to my knowledge were never released.
3) The idea that everybody who watched PRIDE turned their back on it because they didn’t like the potential changes that theoretically could happen, but were never reported doesn’t make a lot of sense.
It has nothing to do with me liking or disliking Josh Barnett...
It has everything to do with him not being a credible source and the facts not adding up on his statement.
No one's calling for Rampage to head up UFC Japan
And he’s probably just as knowledgeable about it as Barnett. Also, his characterization of Japanese girls I read a while back was HILARIOUS
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on Jun 10, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but are 99.3% of us being quoted above the line as some sort of an authority?
He isn’t a promoter, he isn’t Japanese, and he’s hardly neutral as b/w Pride and UFC.
I agree for the most part with the article, but come on Snowden, don’t quote Josh Barnett. Or if you really want to quote him, get an expert on Japanese MMA – not just some American fighter who likes japan – to comment as well.
Of all the gaijin fighters, he probably has one of the best perspectives because he’s seen many different facets of the game over there. He does hold some bias towards the UFC, but the point he’s making is sound in this case.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I think the UFC quote is also Josh slipping into his prowrester persona. Just like Dana, some of the things coming out of certain fighters’ mouths have to be taken with a grain of salt.
There was a quote from him a couple of years ago talking about how anyone who got into MMA to make money made a bad decision (and the actual quote made a lot of sense) but then you compare that to how he likes to talk about how much money he should be making in the sport too. Josh Barnett has Josh Barnett’s own best interest at heart and that is the way you have to look at pretty much everything he says.
anyone who got into MMA to make money made a bad decision
anyone who got into MMA to make moneymade a bad decisionshould try to avoid failing 3 steroid tests and burning your bridges with all the North American promotions
Think about it this way, would Josh Barnett be in favor of US style regulations being impemented in Japanese MMA? He does seem to have a personal reason for talking against it.
On another note though...
Is there any evidence that these changes were on the way? Did anyone in Zuffa suggest it?
Is there any reason to believe that the Japanese masses rebelled because of possible rule changes in a theoretical event that didn’t happen?
The card didn’t happen, therefor the card didn’t fail based one rule changes…
The Barnett quote is the only one I had seen that had said they failed because they were going to change the regulations in Pride so I have no clue about whether that was backed up by anyone else or not. Of course the prevailing internet opinion when this topic came up over the last couple of years was that Zuffa bought Pride just to squash it and never had any intention of trying to run it at all and even the Barnett quote goes against that arguement.
I can tell you with certainty that Zuffa didn’t buy Pride to squash it.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 11, 2010 12:58 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Zuffa had Dan Hardy’s Om and Lotus tattoo airbrushed off the UFC poster against GSP, would you consider that more as political awareness or cultural? Just curious what your opinion would be.
Political
Technically, Tibet is part of Chinese culture
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jun 10, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
that is correct
Facts don't come with points of view.
by Robert Livingston on Jun 10, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
starting a different comment since this idea is different from my earlier one...
It also seems to me the time fighting was biggest in Japan was when it was more about the show than the actual fight result. From it’s earliest roots in other orgs that branched off from pro wrestling and on even into Pride, fights were either fixed or influenced. They seemed much more concerned with the spectacle than the actual contest. UFC (and MMA as a whole), as much as it is entertainment; is a pretty different product than even pride was to the japanese.
Too bad UFC couldn’t use the Pride brand wherever (not just Japan) for some sort of tournament style shows for up and coming talent. I know they said they don’t like tournaments, but just thinking about the amount of various shows they might put on going forward in other markets. Having a Pride GP set up that travels to different locals and puts on tournaments might be kinda cool and different from what they normally do.
One thing this reminds me of
As a big former pro wrestling fan, this reminds me of the WWE’s takeover of ECW. They brought back the brand but it was essentially just WWE events with a different name slapped on it. People were turned off by the ruining of the brand they loved for so many years. I see the same thing here, UFC events with a PRIDE banner put in the ads.
This analogy would work better if the UFC had bought DEEP or Shooto, not Pride.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 11, 2010 1:00 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I didn't think they could pull that off anyway.
They should do a season of TUF in Japan.
Don't care
Bring back the Knees to a downed opponent and I would love soccer kicks and stomps but I could live without them.
by derreckla on Jun 10, 2010 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Alright, it's official.
PRIDE is dead. Maybe those of you who live in the past can join the rest of us and shut the hell up about PRIDE. It was fun, but it’s over.
Your one big ball of joy, i bet you shit in kids sand boxes and piss in people gas tanks.
by Riley_96 on Jun 10, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
No more of a killjoy
than all the people bashing the UFC all the time and talking about how much better PRIDE was.
So we can’t have opinions and discuss them because you don’t like it? Get real.
by sadface on Jun 10, 2010 5:58 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
pride>ufc
i love the ufc and all but it needs to intergrate soccer kicks and knees to the dome. the only thing that annoyed me about pride besides that woman announcer was no elbows to the head.
I half agree with this article
The heavy handed approach personified by Dana White will probably not work in all markets, but I think that they are aware of that at least. He’s not over in Dubai telling the Sheik what’s what.
Things like marketing and business practices are certainly things that can be tweaked for various markets, but they should NOT cater to different markets with different rules. It would take away from their attempt to legitimize it as a real sport rather than a spectacle.
Would the World Cup use larger goals in the U.S. because fans here like to see more scoring? Heck no. Would basketball use a lower hoop in a country where people aren’t as tall? Nope. If you want to change the rules of the UFC they should be changed for all events everywhere.
They could have MAYBE kept Pride running for a while, but long term they are better off having all fighters fighting under the same set of rules in all Zuffa-promoted events.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
funny how we continue to beat a dead horse about a promotion that went out business at the hands of the one were trying to say is failing/going broke/making all the wrong decisions
ufc hasnt needed japan till to get where it is now, so why all of a sudden the flurry of articles about UFC needs japan or it will go bust? (broader comment than just this article)
also, your comparing the UFC going into a market which had a established view on how they like their mma compared to brand new markets who dont have a bias on the format of mma (article specific comment)
Some of these markets do have a preference for how they like their martial arts presented.
"The best book on the real history of MMA that I've seen," Dave Meltzer
by Jonathan Snowden on Jun 11, 2010 1:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
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