Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: UFC 146 Results: Junior dos Santos TKO's Frank Mir

Politics, More Than Health, Behind Double Weigh-Ins

Photo

Massachusetts State Athletic Commission staff met yesterday in a meeting in which one of the major topics of discussion was the "double weigh-in."  From the meeting agenda here are the points that were set to be discussed:

3.  "Double weigh- in" issues

      A.  Is the practice of "cutting" weight safe?

      B.  If so, is there a maximum amount of weight that one can generally safely cut?

      C.  Are there health risks associated with cutting weight and putting weight back on in a short period of time (i.e.- between a weigh in and a fight)?

      D.  Any recommendations relative to the best way to address this issue (e.g.- double weigh ins)?

This, of course, revolves around the new trend in athletic commissions to institute double weigh-ins with a "maximum gained weight" allowance.  In the state of Massachusetts a fighter is to weigh no more than 1.0625 times his contracted weight at the time of his bout.  So for MMA that means a fighter contracted at 155 pounds would be able to weigh no more than roughly 164.5 come fight night, 170 pounders roughly 180.5, and so on.

I've written in the past about the dangers of significant dehydration on the brain and its ability to absorb damage, so I can understand the concern over fighter safety when it comes to this topic.  However, I have plenty of concerns with same-day weigh-ins simply leading to fighters being overly dehydrated on the night of their fight as the fighter mindset is one of "fight at the lowest weight you can."

Star-divide

The MSAC actually did a smart thing and reached out to members of the very experienced New Jersey State Athletic Control Board for their informed opinions on the double weigh-in.  I have been given copies of two of the letters sent out by respected and experienced NJSACB members.  Due to their length I'll shorten them down to just highlight specific points.

First in a letter dated April 21, 2010 NJSACB's Nick Lembo said the following (excerpts from the larger letter):

I have been with the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board since 1995. New Jersey has been regulating mixed martial arts on the professional level since February 2000 and since December 2005 at the amateur level. Last year, New Jersey hosted 45 mixed martial arts events with an average of fourteen bouts on each card. I have also been involved with various committees within the Association of Boxing Commissions involving mixed martial arts.

In summary, at this juncture, I am not in favor of the practice of "double weigh-ins" or same day weigh-ins".

...

In theory, the concept that contestants will properly cut weight because of the added weigh-in or same day weigh-in is a nice concept. In practice, I fear that a high enough percentage of contestants will not change their weight cutting habits. Thus, we will have even less hydrated contestants in the ring or cage at greater health risks.

...

While the NCAA wrestling model and the ASCM guidelines recommend weigh-ins as close to the contest start as possible, they ignore the stark realities of many mixed martial artists and other combative sport athletes. This athlete is sitting in a sauna in a rubber suit, exercising in a rubber suit and possibly taking diuretics or fat burning pills while cutting 10 or more pounds in the 48 hours prior to the weigh-in. This weight loss is water, not fat or muscle.

...

A fighter should not have to worry about getting to another weigh-in. He or she should not have to repeatedly keep checking their weight after drinking some beverages or consuming food and make ongoing decisions as to how much more they can consume. They should rest their bodies and prepare mentally for the contest.

...

Most commissions who perform 2nd or same day weigh-ins do so on the morning of the event. This is due to the fact that you have to allow time and re-hydration for a fighter who has to cut after the 2nd weigh-in and so all parties involved can finalize the card and move on to other responsibilities and obligations. If the goal is to ensure that a 155 limit fighter is 155 when they enter the cage or ring, how is this accomplished? What proof is there that the fighter may not gain several pounds after the 2nd or same day weigh-in?

Mr. Lembo goes on to make recommendations that include increasing fighter and trainer education.  A big point in the discussion is the idea that all commissions should be working together with a unified set of rules as well as an organized effort between all state commissions to "educate proper weight loss techniques, dangers of dehydration and improper cutting, and selecting a proper weight class."  He even goes on to explain to the Massachusetts commission about the fact that there is no real proof that a less skilled fighter gains a significant increase in his winning probability from being "bigger" on the night of the fight.

The second letter (dated April 22, 2010) was from Dr. Sherry Wulkan, a NJSACB ringside physician.  Here are some excerpts from her letter to the MSAC:

I have acted as a ringside physician for the past 15 years, covering both professional and amateur boxing, the finals of the Golden Gloves at Madison Square Garden, muay thai boxing, kick boxing and mixed martial arts events, and am a licensed physician for both the New York State Athletic Control Board and a lead Mixed Martial Arts Physician for the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board. I had recently been asked, and accepted, an advisory and supervisory position for the Texas State Athletic Commission for the the Pacquiao - Clottey event at Dallas Cowboys' football stadium. I am currently the medical chair of the ABC Mixed Martial Arts MMA Rules Committee, and have acted for the past 10 years as team physician for the Serra-Longo MMA Competition Team. I have also performed pre licensing medicals for several championship caliber professional mixed martial artists. Having spoken with hundreds, possibly thousands of combat athletes over the years about weight cutting and weight management, I must respectuflly say, that at the present time, I am not in favor of either the two day weigh-in policy or a same day policy.

...

While in theory, the concept of same day weigh-ins or two day weigh-ins seem logical and theoretically correct, current weight cutting practices by most combat athletes could conceivably heighten the medical risks to these athletes rather than diminish them.

Dr. Wulkan goes on to give pages of medical information about the dangers of dehydration to fighters as well as the amount of time that it takes the body to properly redistribute liquids.  The most important passage from the remaining portion of the letter may be the following:

It takes time for the body to redistribute fluids to the right compartment, even when using IVs. (IVs are medicines; different compositions are used for different reasons, depending for example on the age and body type, amount of fluid loss and pre-existing medical conditions such as diabetes. I recently had discussions with several elite athletes who practice IV hydration and was appalled that they did not know how many bags of fluid to use and when to use what fluid. Too much fluid given too quickly can make a fighter feel stiff and sluggish). Replacement of 2-3% body weight can take 24-48 hours. Replacement of depleted carbohydrates can take up to 72 hours. Under the two day weigh-in system, a fighter who usually walks around at approximately 190-195 lbs, but who fights at 170lb (two elite fighters with whom I have worked fit this category), would only be allowed to replete aproximately 10 lb of body weight prior to the next day weigh-in. They would therefore, by definition, have to be both dehydrated and carbohydrate depleted at the time of the second weigh-in. After that weigh-in, they would have only a few hours to replete their stores, and would either enter the competition even further behind in carbohydrates and fluids thant ehy should be, or very sluggish and stiff.

Some of the short term risks of dehydration (and carbohydrate depletion) may include:

Increased risk for brain injuries such as concussion and contusions (brain bruises) and possibly subdural and epidural hematomas (bleeding caused by ripped blood vessels).

Basically, again, the idea is that the mindset of many fighters is one where they are more likely to still make their cuts and remain dehydrated until the second day weigh-in than they are to decide to move up to the next weight class.  This is especially true when weight classes are distanced as far apart as they are in MMA.

Now this is the part where things get even more interesting.  Massachusetts still went ahead and kept the second weigh-in in place.  Here is the wording on the rule:

2.  Except as otherwise provided by 523 CMR 9.05(3), at the time of the scheduled match, no unarmed combatant's weight shall exceed 1.0625 times their maximum contract weight. 

An unarmed combatant whose weight exceeds the maximum amount may, at the discretion of the Commission, be allowed to lose up to 2 pounds of their existing weight, or shall forfeit the contest and/or be subject to further penalties and sanctions, including, but not limited to, forfeiture of their purse, a fine, suspension, and/or revocation of their license.  This subsequent weigh in shall be conducted at the venue of the event, prior to the commencement of the event, as directed by the Commission.  Each fighter, or their designee, may be present to witness the weigh in of their opponent.

3.  The unarmed combatants scheduled to compete against one another may mutually agree to waive the provisions of 523 CMR 9.05(2).  Such agreement must be evidenced by a provision in the respective bout agreements and initialed by the unarmed combatants.  The provision shall also provide notice to the unarmed combatant that there will be no restriction as to the amount of weight that their opponent may put on after the initial weigh in and before the scheduled match.

A couple things jump out here.

1) 1.0625 is a very specific number.  One could only assume that this comes from medical research, correct?  Wrong.  I have asked around for the medical reasoning for the number and have been met with responses of "there is none." So I was left to assume that the number came in the most political of ways, a group of men sitting in a room throwing out numbers and arguing to the fourth decimal point.  When I asked one experienced athletic commission member if this was the case they replied "You are closer than you could imagine."

2) "The unarmed combatants scheduled to compete against one another may mutually agree to waive the provisions of 523 CMR 9.05(2).  Such agreement must be evidenced by a provision in the respective bout agreements and initialed by the unarmed combatants."  Yes, that means exactly what it says.  This rule, which was put in place under the reasoning of protecting the fighters, can be waived by the fighters.

What is the point of the rule if the very men who would most want to ignore it are allowed to?  Is what is most important here fighter safety?  Or the illusion of fighter safety?

3) Okay, so just because a fighter can waive does not mean that he will waive.  Right?  To date, every single fighter with the opportunity to waive, has waived.

I don't mean to suggest that there is no need for changes in the sport to look out for the health and safety of fighters, but weigh-ins the same day as a fight only serve to do more harm than good.  Both Mr. Lembo and Dr. Wulkan both bring up the following technique as something to explore in the future (taken from Dr. Wulkan's letter):

One idea currently being utilized by the World Boxing Council for proper weight management is the 30 day, 7 day and one day prior - to fight weigh in technique. The percentage of weight lost is set for each weigh-in., thereby regulating a less rapid weight cut, and more likely, a diminution, at least in part, of total body fat as opposed to solely fluid and electrolyte losses.

It's not perfect, especially with the severely distanced weight classes in MMA and the need for guidelines for late minute replacements, but it is a much more effective method for ensuring safe body weight cuts rather than cuts based almost entirely on last minute dehydration.

Really what it comes down to is that same-day weigh-ins are dangerous and having provisions that allow fighters to ignore them entirely makes them pointless as well.  It would be fantastic to see all athletic commissions get on the same page to create a united front and take strides that focus on fighter safety, not commission image.

Comment 85 comments  |  8 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I seldom comment, but allow me to be the first to say +100 for hitting the perfect note on this, Brent.

by Jordan Breen on May 7, 2010 5:03 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree...

but just so anyone knows, you guys do know what this will lead to right?? More weight divisions, the one thing most MMA fans dont want. Jr this and Super that, its coming because of this. All these guys like Irvin, Wandy, Frankln, Tibau are in betweeners, its bound to happen. I dont mind honestly cuz I’ve been a fan of Boxing for years, so Im kinda used to it, but its coming guys so brace yourselves.

by Cestus84 on May 7, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

seldom indeed! you should come around here more often!

www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology

by GregS123 on May 7, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the las comment I read from you,

was “ZOMG DON’T MAKE FUN OF MY HAIRZ!” or something like that, when you responded to a reader a long time ago. haha.

by Anton Tabuena on May 8, 2010 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm assuming this is going to happen in 90% of fights.
2) “The unarmed combatants scheduled to compete against one another may mutually agree to waive the provisions of 523 CMR 9.05(2). Such agreement must be evidenced by a provision in the respective bout agreements and initialed by the unarmed combatants.” Yes, that means exactly what it says. This rule, which was put in place under the reasoning of protecting the fighters, can be waived by the fighters.

Drinking Sunny D because the purple stuff is rank.

by P Brady on May 7, 2010 5:04 PM EDT reply actions  

yep, i'd agree

i can see that happening in almost all the fights.

visit my website: http://bobthewriter.com

by bobthewriter on May 7, 2010 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Very interesting read Brent. Great work!

Fighter safety is very important and I am glad to see that there is research and a thought process working to improve things here. Good stuff!

by truck on May 7, 2010 5:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Great read

I’m more impressed every time I read/hear Nick Lembo. The NJ Athletic Commission seems to even be a step or two ahead of the NSAC.

by woomikee on May 7, 2010 5:18 PM EDT reply actions  

One point of contention

“However, I have plenty of concerns with same-day weigh-ins simply leading to fighters being overly dehydrated on the night of their fight as the fighter mindset is one of “fight at the lowest weight you can.” "

Except that the fighters will always find their best balance, just as water does once its vessel has been altered. After a handful of fighters attempt this and lose because they are still too drained, fighters will stop cutting so much weight. Like any rule in any sport, the people involved adapt, and it is that adaptation that the commission should be counting on. Cutting weight is fundamentally a way to try to one-up your competition.

Personally, I’d rather have people fighting closer to their natural weight anyways. While it is a feat that Tibeua can cut something ridiculous like 40lbs before a fight, I’d rather see him fight people that are more his weight.

by Cocytus on May 7, 2010 5:22 PM EDT reply actions  

what do the HW guys who need to cut weight do in this case?

I guy like Brock Lesnar, or even Mir at this stage if he keeps gaining mass will be killing their organs to try to stay low enough for the fight. I believe if a fighter wants to cut down to a division and it is something he is unable to do properly it will show in his proformance. Case and point James Irvin, the man basically drained the life out of himself and then got smashed in the fight due to being drained.

If a fighter tries to drain out their once in a 24 hr period to make weight he will pay in the fight with loss of carido and poor proformance. If a fighter cuts twice in 24 hr period it is unnessicary damage done to the body. Let him learn a lession by getting his ass handed to him, not by a hospital visit and IV being put in.

by Riley_96 on May 7, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

New weight class for Super Heavies, and adjust heavyweight. 206-245 then 246-285. Sure there are logistical problems with this in that their may not be enough fighters to create depth in both divisions. The situation with the HWs though is already reaching a similar problem. All the lighter heavies are getting beat by the heavy heavies. In a few years I wouldn’t be surprised if no one in HW fought lower than 245ish and the lighter heavies all tried cutting to LHW.

Mir is a bad example though, he used to fight around 235 or something. He only gained the mass because of his obsession with Lesnar, and that mass gain actually didn’t help him much.

by Cocytus on May 7, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cain fights at like 235 or so and hes a wrecking machine, also Fedor is a very pudgy 230 yet he is considered the best HW in the world. You are right there isn’t enough depth to split the division, its only recently the division has started to rebound from years of being paper thin.

by Riley_96 on May 7, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cain fights at 245, and of his last 4 opponents, only Ben Rothwell was heavier (at 265). Minotauro, Cheick, and Stojnic all fight between 230 and 245. We’ll see how he fares against the highly talented 265er’s soon enough. Same with JDS. They could totally blow my theory out of the water, and hopefully they do because the HW division cannot survive a split in the foreseeable future.

Until Fedor fights a 265 lb legit top talent HW, his relevancy in the future of the HW division still a question mark to me. For those that may misconstrue this, no I am not saying he’s a nobody, Im not ignoring his past achievements, yes he is one of the greatest hw of all time.

by Cocytus on May 7, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

People need to give up on new weight classes thing

There aren’t even 20 quality heavyweights, hell it’s not even easy coming up with a good top 10 list, if you split it further the division would become a farce. The only thing that is happening right now is that the better athletes are beating the lesser ones.

by Hatertorade on May 7, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

265, 264.5, 245, 251, 255, 255, 254… when was this 235 period?

People are greatly overreating to Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar winning a few fights. Throughout the history of the hw division, smaller guys have always been able to beat bigger guys.Being light wasn’t a problem when Randy was throwing Gonzaga on his head, or punching the shit out of Tim Sylvia.

When the division is full of monsters that can’t beat the people at 230, then you make the split. That time has not arrived.

by Phildo on May 7, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You mean like Anthony Johnson?

Who got subbed after signifcantly missing weight against Clementi, missed out on earning a KO of the night bonus against Yoshida after significantly missing weight, and then ran out of gas in the second against Koscheck after reportedly passing out earlier in the week because of his strenuous weight cut?

Sure, Gouveia eventually learned his lesson (after missing twice and subsequently getting the boot) and Irvin is going back to 205 (which may be because Dana said he wouldn’t book him at 185 again). But most fighters will still take huge risks to their health to have a size advantage. Don’t like it? Go to Japan.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on May 7, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s only two fighters. And in what, a 1 year time span? I’m not saying the change would naturally happen over night, but it would inevitably happen as more and more losses occur. Actually, Johnson is the perfect case for double weigh-ins leading to fighter’s fighting closer to their natural weight. The rules, as they stand, are what allowed all of his follies to occur because they’ve allowed this culture of weight cutting to grow and sink in. A change in rules will be proceeded by a change in the systems behavior and we won’t get ridiculous imbalances like Johnson.

by Cocytus on May 7, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, that's just the first things that come to mind and only from the last year.

What about Lutter, Alves, and Cyborg? Hell, they moved the limit from 140 up to 145 mostly to stop Carano from missing weight. There’s obviously others I can’t rattle off the top of my head, and that’s just the missed weights, but that’s besides the point.

Long health is not the primary concern of these guys. Being as big as possible simply matters more. A rule change won’t change the culture that’s already established and many of these guys were raised in through wrestling.

I’d much rather have fighters weigh in the day before and be at lower risk for cuts and brain damage during the fight.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on May 7, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cyborg? Hell, they moved the limit from 140 up to 145 mostly to stop Carano

Carano and Cyborg are special cases. Yes, they’re being unprofessional missing weight, but at the same, they can’t move up in weight. There is no 155 class for them to fight in.

by MMAGuard on May 7, 2010 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

the point is that Johnson will learn the hard way. If he keeps losing due to carido problems he will get cut and realize that if he does not fight at the proper weight class he will never get to the elite level. Rumble is also a guy who can be a big MW if he put on some mass. Johnson has the frame to pack on some muscle and become a beast at MW, but thats up to him.

by Riley_96 on May 7, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, Gouveia eventually learned his lesson

LOL

He just missed weight AGAIN … at 205 this time

by Steve4192 on May 7, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh shit, he did!

I didn’t see that yesterday. At least he’s not going for 185 anymore, but holy hell that boy needs to get his head straight. Good catch, sir.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on May 7, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem isn’t that they will attempt and lose.

Who cares if they cut too much and lose? The problem is being dehydrated while fighting has serious health risks.

by Phildo on May 7, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I agree with this completely. The practice of weight cutting has essentially developed from a loophole in the weigh in procedure. If you think about the whole system at its most basic level, weight classes were developed to ensure a fair match between comparably sized opponents. Weigh ins were conducted to test that the classes were being adhered to. Weight cutting occured when opponents realized they could actually enter the ring heavier than their opponent if they cut weight without any real negative impact. Everybody became aware of this and it became common practice.

If weigh ins took place 30mins or 60mins before the fight and some foolish fighters decided they would cut weight and be at their most dehydrated as they stepped into the ring, they would learn pretty soon that 1) their energy levels would be depleted SUPER quickly and their performance ability would be greatly reduced. But perhaps MOST importantly, they would have absolutely NO size advantage over their opponent at all given both guys are stepping into the ring at essentially the same weight. Considering having a size advantage is the goal of weight cutting, why would people still do it in this situation??!!

There is no logical reason I can see that weight cutting is something that should be valued or encouraged. Fighters and their teams have a responsibility to ensure their own safety just as much as the athletic commissions.

by GeeDub on May 8, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

One idea currently being utilized by the World Boxing Council for proper weight management is the 30 day, 7 day and one day prior – to fight weigh in technique. The percentage of weight lost is set for each weigh-in., thereby regulating a less rapid weight cut, and more likely, a diminution, at least in part, of total body fat as opposed to solely fluid and electrolyte losses.

My favorite, mostly because I’ve advocated something similar in the past. It also might provide a bonus in making sure promotions sign fights at least 30 days in advance.

by John Nash on May 7, 2010 5:24 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I don’t get how this is any different. Instead of cutting once fighters will be cutting three times for one fight. That is asking for alot. Don’t think they would try it? Think again.

by MichaelJ1985 on May 7, 2010 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Im with you on this one. Many fighters would absolutely cut multiple times to gain an advantage.

The only time that I can see, where there is no incentive to cut weight for a weigh in is when that weigh in is essentially at fight time. If there’s no time to rehydrate before the fight then the negatives of cutting the weight greatly outweigh the positives.

by GeeDub on May 8, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think the day before weigh in alone is the best option. From experience, same day weigh ins suck(unless the other guy cuts a lot and gasses quick then they’re pretty sweet). If someone wants to cut an ungodly amount of weight, who are we to deny them that? You don’t stop fat people from eating at McDonald’s.

by bla10cow on May 7, 2010 5:28 PM EDT reply actions  

DAMN!

Rumble is one ugly mofo.

"Well... You're damned if you do, and You're damned if you don't."- Bart Simpson

by poundnground on May 7, 2010 5:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Rec? Really?

And are you really interested in seeing pictures of me? like seriously. Highly doubt it.

"Well... You're damned if you do, and You're damned if you don't."- Bart Simpson

by poundnground on May 7, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nick Lembo

I was going to post that I agree with everything he said but, as it turns out, I simply agree with the entire article.

Of all the things that could improve MMA, why try to fix something that isn’t broken?

ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.

by Chris Barton on May 7, 2010 5:31 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Because it is? It’s completely unfair as it stands.

You have 185 pound fighters cutting down to 155. Just look at the recent Tibau/Uno fight. There was no way Tibau was 155 by the time they fought. He was twice as thick as Uno and he basically won on size alone. It was a mauling.

Look at Thiago Alves who cuts even more and fights at 170. He looks like he’s past 205 when he actually fights.

Then the logic is “Well (enter name) should cut down!” which only results in a cascading effect. So now say Uno moves down, and he’s big for whatever weight he’s at. Thi will cause others to move down themselves which in turn causes the next weight down to move if they can. So on and so forth.

by Hawk52 on May 7, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfair?

It’s not like Tibau and Alves have been indestructible wrecking machines in their respective classes.

You could add a lot of Japanese fighters to the list (size differences between Aoki/Melendez and Akiyama/Belcher being key examples) when talking about size differential as well. I don’t think weigh-ins should be changed just so smaller fighters in the weight class have more of a chance.

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on May 7, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would only be unfair if those other fighters weren’t allowed to cut down to a lower weight as well. Since they are allowed it’s a completely level playing field.

ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.

by Chris Barton on May 7, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

it's only level

if the fighters’ frames happen to line up with where the arbitrary weight class cut-offs are.

some people are small for a given weight class, some people are large. that often leads to an advantage for the larger guy. but, like the man said above, splitting the weight-classes is not something I’d look forward to.

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 7, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t believe in this. We have Penn , Edgar, Shogun, Machida,Anderson Silva and Fedor who are top of the heap in their respective weight classes who cut little to no weight.

by MichaelJ1985 on May 7, 2010 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry.

 Anderson Silva cuts A LOT of weight to stay top of the heap in his weight class. Not as much as some of the monsters like Alvez or Johnson, but he looked bigger than Irvin for their fight at 205.

by castleeb on May 8, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Silva said that was 185 lbs before getting on a plane to Abu Dhabi.
He hit the scale at 182 lbs against Leites. When a guy cuts a lot of weight he doesn’t lose extra pounds of water.
Besides, his S&C coach said that he was 210 lbs in fight with Griffin, and he looked softer that at MW.
He’s got deceptive physique.

by dancingChicken on May 8, 2010 5:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Anderson Silva in shape is a small guy at least weight wise. He is definitley not cutting more than 5 or 10 pounds for either division.

You do know the difference between cutting weight, walk around weight, fighters who get bloated and all that good stuff right?

by MichaelJ1985 on May 8, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree completely. At its core, weight cutting is a completely unecessary process. If all fighters are doing it and nobody is gaining an advantage, then do what we can to scrap the entire process as it is achieving nothing. If some fighters are doing it but not others, then scrap it because it is creating unfair fights. Whichever way you look at it, actively seeking to stop the practice is the best move.

Im with you on the Uno/Tibau fight. That was a disgrace. The Rumble/Yoshida fight was the same.

by GeeDub on May 8, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hang on a second!?!?!? Brain damage and death!?!?! wtf?!? Is this coz 180lb fighters are going to cut to 155lb an hour before the fight and crawl into the ring dehydrated and exhausted???

What is the motivation for a fighter to do that? If you were a fighter, would you do it ?!?! You’d have no size advantage, you’d be severely weakened and gas out by the end of the first round. If any buffoon decided to try, the entire MMA community would learn pretty quickly its a bad move if you want to win the fight.

Weight cutting isnt done so fighters can weigh in as light as possible, its done so they can enter the cage as heavy as possible to gain an advantage. Take away that advantage and you take away the motivation, no?

by GeeDub on May 8, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

How about we require fighters to have a specific gravity in their urine for the day before weigh-in? You’ve basically got to “piss clear” (water colored piss) and then step on the scale at weight.

Would this change the composition of the current weight classes? Yes. Most guys would have to lose ten pounds of muscle to make it at these weights.

But if this was the rule for the entire sport guys would have no choice. Outside of cheating and using someone else’s urine, there would be no way around this test. Fighters would be forced to come in completely hydrated the day before the fight.

by kellemonster on May 7, 2010 5:40 PM EDT reply actions  

nj high school wrestling does that

all the wrestlers get hydration tests that they have to pass at the start of the season and they cannot wrestle 1 or 2 weight classes (not exactly sure) below what they weigh on that day

basically what would happen is everyone would move up a weight class, edgar could stay at 155 but hed have to fight off aldo, bj would be 170 champ, gsp would be the 185 champ, anderson silva 205, and the lhw division would be fucked over cause theyd have to go fight the bigger guys so they’d prob make a cruiserweight division

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on May 7, 2010 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hate the idea that “Fighter’s will still do it, so we shouldn’t change it”. That’s illogical. That’s like saying we shouldn’t have laws for safety belts because people will still break them.

If someone stupid does that, and then gets shellacked in the fight, maybe they’ll learn to not do it again. Instead of it being “Work around the system so you can come into the fight with a ten to twenty pound advantage” as it is.

by Hawk52 on May 7, 2010 5:44 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

It’s more than just “people will still break seat-belt laws” it’s like saying “people will drive faster than they used to when they were not required to wear seat-belts because now they have a false sense of security and by driving faster more people will actually die than if we didn’t pass a seat-belt law” (and there is at least some evidence of this).

So what is being said here is that fighters will be even more dehydrated if we do the two-weigh-in method which will lead to even worse injuries.

by kellemonster on May 7, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

And that is they’re own stupidity doing it. All they’d be doing is hurting themselves. It would be a fairer playing field for a competitive sport between two people who should be fighting at the same weight.

I stand by learning. If you do that and come in thena get mauled because you are tired maybe you won’t do it again. And if it happens enough people might stop doing it.

This discussion shouldn’t be about “protecting idiots from themselves”, but instead “Making the sport fair”.

by Hawk52 on May 7, 2010 5:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Except when you are the one making the regulation you are taking a positive act. If you know that your act is going to cause someone else to do something stupid (when, “but for” your act they wouldn’t have done something this stupid) then you’ve “caused” the harm that the person does to himself.

Now, we can start to argue whether the fighter’s own action “breaks the chain” of causation between the promulgator of the regulations and the fighter’s harmful act to himself, but let’s be clear that the regulator will have caused the act.

by kellemonster on May 7, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

the brokeness is

that there are weight classes, but people don’t weigh the same amount for a fight. the argument is that people often have a big advantage when they get to fight littler guys.

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 7, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

That seems like the littler guys problem, not the commissions.

Did you see the size of that chicken?

by Heenan on May 7, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think the idea

is that the commission is there to try to make the fights as fair as possible.

To be honest though, I don’t see any way around this as long as the weight classes are so big. And I don’t want more weight classes (except possibly in HW).

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 7, 2010 7:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Weight cutting is part of a fighters skillset. We’ve all seen what a bad cut does to a guys stamina and reaction time (as the post outlines). It’s just as necessary to compete as wrestling is. Lyota is one of the few that remains immune to the problems when facing larger fighters (due to his speed).

Did you see the size of that chicken?

by Heenan on May 7, 2010 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear you, but it handicaps people whose natural weight doesn’t align with the weight classes.

An example would be that if the lightweight cutoff was 150, and welterweight was 165, Tibau would probably have to fight welterweight. That would benefit guys like Josh Neer who couldn’t compete with Tibau.

The point is that it’s arbitrary who gets screwed by the weight classes; it’s not just a skillset.

But I have to admit that I don’t see how this solves that problem.

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 7, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boxing weigh ins used to be the same day. They moved them back for a reason. Whatever reason there was then, still applies.

I don’t care when wrestlers weigh in because they don’t get punched, kneed, and kicked in the head.

by Phildo on May 7, 2010 6:08 PM EDT reply actions  

And yet even though they don’t get hit in the head, the way they do weigh-ins requires them to be more hydrated than fighters that do get hit in the head.

by kellemonster on May 7, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don’t care when wrestlers weigh in because they don’t get punched, kneed, and kicked in the head.

That’s not true.

They don’t get punched, kneed, or kicked INTENTIONALLY, but accidents happen pretty damn frequently during scrambles. I ate plenty of knees, wrestling shoes, and hammerfists to the grille during my wrestling career. Had my nose broken twice too. Once from a knee, once from a forearm across the chops.

by Steve4192 on May 7, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand it happens eventually, but they aren’t intentionally getting hit in the head, and it isn’t the purpose of the event.

by Phildo on May 7, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

SO we should refuse to move weigh-ins

because fighter engage in stupid behavior? So, instead of giving a equitable weigh-in regulation that would encourage more responsible weight cutting, we’re just gonna throw our hands up and say “Screw it, everyone’s stupid, we’ll leave it the way it is.” Sounds like a parent who looks at a liquor cabinet and says, “Ah, hell, I’m not gonna fix the lock, they’re just gonna drink anyway AND I’ll have a broken lock when they get done.”

It is possible that fighters would start making responsible choices.

But the WBC model sounds like a great compromise that accomplishes much of the same goals as a same-day weigh-in..

"Oh, and Joe? If Brian hits any of your delicate millionaires, know that he meant it." - Stacey

by duck on May 7, 2010 6:28 PM EDT reply actions  

No, it’s the problem of partial reform. You add in a day-of weigh in without providing some sort of check on dehydration levels you are going to make things worse. If you are going to do day-of weigh-ins we need to add some hydration tests.

by kellemonster on May 7, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

when the punishment for them not making the responsible choices is death, then I say we go with the option that involves less death, that’s just me though.

by Phildo on May 7, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed. I think that dehydration is a major factor, but it wouldn’t be as big of a factor if guys JUST FOUGHT IN THEIR STUPID NATURAL WEIGHT CLASSES. But no, they prefer to beat up on the littler guys. The whole thing could be avoided by just having them weigh in a week beforehand and then the actual day of the fight. That way the body adjusts to the amount of fluid and it prevents people who are naturally a weight class higher from competing. What’s healthier – 170 pounders fighting or 182 pounders dropping to 170 pounds overnight to fight?

by Tim the Enchanter on May 7, 2010 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Any comparison to wrestling and day of (or even hour before) weigh-ins ignores the other part of the regulations: you get caught with a rubber suit on or any other “tricks” to lose too much water weight the day of the weigh in and you’re done, you don’t even get to wrestle that day.

by kellemonster on May 7, 2010 6:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Heavyweights

I assume the Mass board is still cool with the 40 lb. difference in some heavyweight contests, right?

I’m not sure why they’re splitting hairs on this one.

by superflat on May 7, 2010 7:28 PM EDT reply actions  

If there is a 40lb difference that is the smaller fighters fault for not cutting down in weight.

by MichaelJ1985 on May 7, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

1.0625 sounds like a very specific number...

…unless you know fractions and realize that it’s just the decimal form of the fraction 1/16.

Is it is still a very random number that’s probably not based on good medical evidence? Sure. But it’s hardly like the scenario postulated in the article, of guys in suits arguing down to the 4th decimal place.

"I want to tell me what you see, let's go ahead and see by in the fight, what you saw, in the ring." - Tito Ortiz

by CasualMMAFan on May 7, 2010 7:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, I phrased it in an extreme way. But from what I’ve been told by people IN THE KNOW it was basically people arguing back and forth just picking number after number for reasons that aren’t based on any sort of medical evidence.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on May 7, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great post

I like the 30 day, 7 day and day before model. I have been wondering what the long-term effects of severe weight cuts will be on fighters 10-20 years after they are done fighting.

Whatever will keep people fighting close to their normal walking around weight is best for long-term health. But that has to be a system that can’t be abused. As soon as “the other guy” is cutting 20 lbs to get an edge then everyone will start doing that again.

Tricky to figure out a good system but I think it can be done and it’s well worth the effort.

by Django Z on May 7, 2010 8:05 PM EDT reply actions  

The more I think about this, the less I think that this is solving any problems. If everyone fought at their “walking around” weight, we’d still have big weight disparities.

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 7, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

maybe the argument

is that at walk-around weight, people would have better stamina?

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 7, 2010 8:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

This will be 3 weight cuts instead of 1 like I said before. This is a failed concept as well but it does look good at first.

by MichaelJ1985 on May 7, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

I took the 3 different weight cuts not as weighing the division limit each weigh in day, but gradually losing weight over a 30 day span.

Fighter A, who 30 days out weighs 195 for a 170 fight, has to weigh 180lbs 7 days before the fight, then the night before the fight has to weigh the bout limit.

by cubsin2010 on May 8, 2010 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

background and clarification

I’m not directly involved with what’s going on with the commission and rules here in MA, but I do follow it as much as I can. With that caveat, here’s my understanding of the history behind the double weigh-in and re-hydration rule and why the “fighter option to ignore this rule” was added:

When the bill was passed to regulate MMA in Massachusetts, the officials involved had to set up shop from scratch. There was nothing formal in place – nothing. All of the local MMA promotions had been self-regulating themselves for the past several years, and there was an event every other week or so. It’s a relatively vibrant MMA scene with a lot of activity and a lot of promoters and fighters who are trying to make a living for themselves.

Once the bill was passed, if a promoter wanted to run an event, they now had to do it by the new rules and under the supervision of the commission. Except there were no rules and regulation in place! This meant you couldn’t promote an event.

As a result the new commission was under a lot of pressure to get the system up and running and in place FAST. Evening meetings, Saturday meetings, and lots of hard work for a bunch of people, most of whom didn’t know much about MMA, through no fault of their own. They were simply under pressure to get this thing running, and in all honesty they did a fantastic job in moving very quickly.

They thought the re-hydration rule would be a good thing for fighter safety. Again this was part of a marathon rule-making session, when these people would have rather been at home with their families.

All the local fighters and promoters were displeased when these rules were released. And again, to the credit and flexibility of the new commission that is in place, they immediately listened to those concerns and added the additional language that fighters could agree to opt out of the re-hydration rule.

It sounds like a weird frankenstein combination of rules because it is. They patched it up and fixed it as best and as quickly as they could. To go from no regulation of MMA at all, to having all the local shows clamoring to get going again, and then Bellator+Moosin+UFC, is a lot of work for a lot of people. They haven’t done everything perfectly but they deserve a lot of credit, in my opinion.

Anyway, that’s just my understanding. Might not be 100% accurate but hopefully you get the point and don’t bust my balls if I misstated something.

www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology

by GregS123 on May 7, 2010 8:52 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

also, the ability for fighters to waive the double-weigh in rule was voted in on March 13th, over a month BEFORE the dates on those letters above.

www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology

by GregS123 on May 7, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I should have made it more explicit in the language but it says that after the letters they “kept the rule in” i.e. it was already there and the letters did not result in the removal.

Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com

by Brent Brookhouse on May 7, 2010 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

cool i don’t think these guys are saints or anything, but just wanted to stick up for them a little bit. these people got bill lumbergh’d.

“yeah… i’m gonna need you to come in on saturday, and uh, set up MMA regulation”

www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology

by GregS123 on May 7, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Always got to rec an office space reference. Also, thank you for the back ground info on the MA MMA legislation.

by castleeb on May 8, 2010 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Brent,

While it seems you are opposed to same day weigh ins (with good reason), do you believe any sort of guidelines should be put in place to engender an environment hospitable to fighters who do not prefer to cut weight?

 I don’t think same day weight cuts are the answer, but I think if all fights took place at walk around weight, fighters would be healthier, and the fights themselves more energetic and exciting.

by castleeb on May 8, 2010 12:23 AM EDT reply actions  

For those who decry the weight cut

Do most of you honestly beleive size=win. In extreme cases yes, but I am here to tell you that may times that is not the case. When you cut you sacrafice muscle mass as well, not to mention the guy who cut less is going to be more hydrated than you.

Guys have been cutting weight for years in boxing, in mma, judo and wrestling. Even at an olympic level. It’s part of combat sports. Just because a guy is 20 pounds bigger than me it doesn’t mean he will win by any means. It’s not the same as if we hadn’t cut and he had been 20 pounds bigger than me. He sacrafices stamina and endurance for added mass.

There is a great equalizer. Guys that cut unreal amounts of weight will always suffer in their performances. The system is fine as it is.

by JaeeJaee on May 8, 2010 8:58 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

"I'm working on the intricacies of details of maneuvers that he still doesn't even know the names of." - Frank Mir

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Chilli_pickle_283g_hot_small
Junior Dos Santos' Worst UFC Win is Stefan Struve
Wario_small
BECW3 UFC 146 Recap & Live Post discussion
Wario_small
BECW3 UFC 146 Live Post
Madmen_icon_small
Dan Hardy: The Outlaw (Short documentary film)
Me_2_small
Farewell Frank Mir

Recent FanPosts

Small
USA chants during ufc fights!?!?!?!?!?
220px-johnnycash1969_small
Fighters you aren't sold on ?
Small
Duane Ludwig's chasm...ouch
Rousimar-palhares-picture_small
An Appeal to SBNation
Lebowski_excited_grin_small
Top 5 Potential Replacements for Vitor Belfort Against Wanderlei Silva
Obp_small
Help me get a job

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

MMA Rankings

USA Today / SB Nation Consensus MMA Rankings