A Different Perspective on Overeem
Originally posted at HeadKickLegend.com -- Promoted to the Front Page by Anton Tabuena
Over the past months, much has been written on Alistair Overeem. Sadly, while there's no shortage of Overeem articles out there, there's something about the Demolition Man that makes normally sound people become irrational. As a result, almost every Overeem story comes down to one of two things: he's ducking people, or he's on steroids. Sometimes both. The problem with this approach is that it focuses on the sensational and fails to address Overeem as, you know, an actual FIGHTER. Which is a shame, because there is much worthwhile to discuss about Overeem the fighter. So, in the hopes of setting aside any more steroid talk, let's take a look at exactly what you can expect from Overeem's return to America soil on May 15. And we'll start with this:
Alistair Overeem is now one of the best, if not THE best, Heavyweight strikers currently in MMA.
Before getting out the torches, let's look rationally at Overeem's recent career. Most MMA fans like to harp on his less than stellar opposition in recent MMA fights, and understandably so - after all, this is the sport he is more known for, this is the sport he is returning to, and this is the sport more fans follow. And it's true that his 2009 MMA challenges have been less than inspired. But to focus solely on his recent MMA history is to ignore what makes Overeem so dangerous - his K-1 record.
After a pair of random, smaller K-1 fights in 2001 and 2004, Overeem made his K-1 return at Dynamite 2008. Brought in as a Dream representative in the MMA v. K-1 themed show, Overeem had the unenviable task of taking on K-1's #2 fighter and KO expert Badr Hari. In 2 minutes, Overeem managed to shock the kickboxing world and knock Hari out. Beginner's luck, right - maybe Hari underestimated him?
From there, Overeem moved up to a main event fight with then champion Remy Bonjasky. Overeem stayed close to Bonjasky the entire fight until being dropped in the 3rd and losing a close decision that a lot of people felt he should have won. Still, there were excuses - Remy wasn't himself, was injured, etc. It was the next fight that seemed to really silence critics, as Overeem easily defeated the legendary Peter Aerts (ranked #3 at the time), ending Aerts's epic 16 year run as a Grand Prix participant. He followed that up with a brutal KO of Ewerton Teixeira (#7 at the time), a loss to Hari (#2) and a win over Dzevad Poturak (#25). This is a huge run of wins, but they mean little to the MMA fan as these are just names with no real significance. So, to put it into perspective, let's look at the equivalent MMA HW fighters using the SBN Consensus rankings.
According to the current rankings, this would be like a fighter coming into the UFC and, in essentially his debut, knocking out Brock Lesnar in one round, following that up with a close, controversial decision loss to Fedor, then defeating Carwin and Big Nog before losing to Brock, and finally beating Stefan Struve to rebound from that loss. I think we can all agree that such a resume would be pretty impressive.
The obvious counter-point to this argument is that Overeem's big wins have come in K-1, and kickboxing and MMA are two different sports because of the ground game. This is true, and yet, if your opponent does not do the ground game, are they really that different? And Brett Rogers does not do the ground game. On May 15 Overeem will face a man who is, essentially, a pure stand-up fighter. The exact skills Overeem used to rise to the top of K-1 will be in use here. When he faces a fighter like Werdum or Fedor, the difference between MMA and kickboxing will become more clear, but against Rogers (or Arlovski down the road) it remains, in many ways, a kickboxing fight.
So what makes Overeem such a feared kickboxer? Three things:
1. Power. This can not be stressed enough. Overeem has developed brutal knock-out power, which he has dispalyed in defeating Teixeira, Fujita, and Poturak, all from nasty knees. And this power is not limited to his strikes - Overeem can throw his opponents around with little trouble. Rogers's size will make him tough to ragdoll, but once Overeem grabs him, it may be hard for Rogers to get away.
2. Accuracy. This is an oft-overlooked part of striking in the MMA game, but one of Overeem's strong points is his ability to connect perfectly with that KO shot. He doesn't throw tons of strikes, hoping one connects - instead he grabs his opponent, lines up, and hits the one strike that takes them out. This is a hugely important skill, and is very reminiscent of, dare I say, Fedor.
3. Tough chin. In all his recent K-1 fights, Overeem has only been stopped by Hari and knocked down once by Bonjasky, and in neither of those fights was he truly out of it (the Hari stoppage was due to being knocked down twice in a round, not being unable to answer the 10 count). He's been in with tough strikers, taken their best, and has not been KO'd. If Rogers connects with his heavy hands, he'll definitely test that chin, but don't expect Overeem to go down easily.
Some MMA fans eagerly look forward to Overeem losing, or failing a drug test and proving them right. But what they should be looking forward to is one of the best HW strikers on the planet making his return to the US and to top 10 MMA competition. Anyone who looks at the Overeem who fought at LHW, or his recent MMA opponents, and decides that he is all hype with no backing is sorely overlooking what makes this man so dangerous - and such a welcome part of the Strikeforce roster.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Excellent write-up. Not many people are giving Overeem the proper respect he deserves and I have a strong feeling that May 15 is going to be his coming-out party.
"Referees, be sure to step in and stop the fight on time tomorrow, because I might get carried away in the moment and my many punches may end up destroying my opponent." - Tatsuya "CRUSHER" Kawajiri
If you are talking about Strikeforce he signed a new contract with them earlier this year that includes some wording about how often he has to fight if he is the champ. That is some thing the old contract didn’t have. If I remember right Coker also said that it committed him to more than one fight this year.
"Tough chin"
Well, you had me until that. He has been KOed 9 times (6 in MMA, 3 in K-1).
agree
MMA striking much different than pure kickboxing. Overeem has proved in the past that his chin does not stand up to heavy assaults. His K-1 exploits have given me no reason to reconsider either. Let’s see him take some shots from Rogers before we write off the KOs from LHWs.
by CrowCrucifix on May 6, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
His problem was more do with his conditioning
and then taking shots. His chins average but it isn’t anything like Arlovski’s or James Thompsons.
Food goes in here
Yes cardio was a big issue with Overeem at LHW . I don’t know if still is because none of his recent MMA fights at HW have went into deep waters and he has not been pushed in any of his HW MMA fights eather. You are right Pandanus His chin is not the greatest but it was more of just like Overeem gave up ounce he got tired and started to fade. It really was like someone turned a switch off when he would fade and just plain out give up. He would just go from kicking ass to getting his ass kicked within seconds. I have never seen a fighter fade faster then Overeem did or maybe still does, This Rogers fight will tell us alot and should be a great test ? Is he really a top HW or just alot of over hype fighting inferior opponents ?
allistar is 6'5
that cut to 205 had to be brutal. Plus when you dehydrate yourself like that you should be easier to KO due to less Cerebrospinal fluid supporting the brain. I would think his chin should be a bit better at HW.. but who knows.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Not to mention
that the added muscle will prevent as significant of ‘snap’ when he gets hit. And dear lord has his neck gotten thicker. I think I remember seeing a video of Mayweather actually strength training his neck (literally) to improve his chin (figuratively).
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by pdl on May 6, 2010 1:37 AM EDT up reply actions
this is true
jaw and neck training is very common for strikers. Jack Dempsey would chew on pine twigs.
Also a common thing to do is attach weights to a rubber hose. like you would use for a fish tank bite said hose and lift the weight with your neck in a curling type motion.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
One 4-time state wrestling champ in MD
would string weights to his head gear and do reps of lifting his chin while he watched match tapes on his TV. That’s hardcore.
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Jack Dempsey chewed on pieces of whole bark, if I remember correctly in the latter stages of his career. That’s nuts.
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by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
And does Rogers really anything bring anything the likes of Aerts, Badri, Remy, Everton don’t in terms of pure striking?
Sure this is an MMA fight, ok then. Well Overeem already has the vastly superior ground game.
Food goes in here
Didn't Liddell knock him the "F" out at LHW?
that wasn’t conditioning.
Day-man! Fighter of the Night-man! Champion of the sun. You're a master of Karate and friendship for everyone!
"Charlie"
Actually it kind of was. Overeem was getting the better of the striking exchanges until Chuck took him down and wore him out a little bit. When the fight got back to standing Overeem was noticeably slower and sloppier.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
It was 3 minutes into the fight...
Day-man! Fighter of the Night-man! Champion of the sun. You're a master of Karate and friendship for everyone!
"Charlie"
My bad... A little over 5 minutes.
Day-man! Fighter of the Night-man! Champion of the sun. You're a master of Karate and friendship for everyone!
"Charlie"
stupid argument. Chuck was clearly winning the fight before the KO, and brutally kneeing him in the head.
I disagree
Allistar was taking it to him standing.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
yup
He rocked chuck, that fight could of went either way.
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by Thats It For you! on May 6, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but how does this reflect well on Overeem? Winning thirty seconds of a fight before you get your ass beat and then get knocked out at the three minute mark isn’t exactly anything to write home about.
to do well against The Iceman when he was still frozen
Is something to write home about IMHO. Allistar had better technique but that was back when chuck had an adamantium jaw and thunder in his hands. Go listen to the interview chuck gave after that fight its amazing how crisp chucks speech is compared to now.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on May 6, 2010 12:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He clearly gassed against Liddell. Watch the fight again. That’s not to excuse his performance, but it does appear to have been the primary cause of his loss. Liddell clearly was losing the fight until then, a fight that admittedly had not gone on that long.
by The Darkness on May 6, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
He didn’t gas. Chuck knocked him silly with that overhand and Alistair couldn’t get his legs back under him for the rest of the fight.
At the three minute mark Overeem was clearly already starting to gas. At 3:23 Chuck clocked him and then about 10 seconds later finished the job. I should have said “was gassing” above. When you’re gassing it’s very difficult to defend yourself. Given that he wasn’t knocked down from that blow, I would guess that if he hadn’t been gassing he could have survived, but you never know, and we’ll never know.
by The Darkness on May 6, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
A TKO in K-1 is different than one in MMA
Watch the Badr Hari fight and tell me if he was even a little out of it, as he wasn’t.
He and his management have always claimed that near the end of his LHW run in 06/07 he was having huge problems cutting down to the limit, and since moving to heavyweight it is really hard to argue.
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He said he was peeing blood,
on the last few times he cut to 205… and oh god, what I would do to see Badr compete in MMA.
by Anton Tabuena on May 6, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Dude I don't have time to google
But didn’t he have an mma fight at a K-1 event a year ago or so?
Be like water..
by theredoctober on May 6, 2010 3:28 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Watch the fights bud
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Overeem has an iron jaw, but it’s far from glass.
-Chuck must’ve hit him with the hardest overhand right i’ve ever seen, up there with Fedor/ Arlovski and Rashade/ Chuck; he then drilled him like 4 times with huge shots to put him down.
-Bobby Hoffman scored a pretty spectacular KO over Reem but that was early in his career, and Hoffman is one of the most natural MMA fighters i’ve ever seen.
- Shogun’s KO over him was the result of a leaping shot from the open guard that would’ve put down a fucking elephant.
- Sergei KO’d him with a bomb to the back of the head.
He doesn’t have a granite chin, but as other people have said most of those KO losses were due to conditioning problems, and in most he wasn’t even straight KO’d
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by ElliotMatheny on May 6, 2010 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He was gassed against chuck and gassing against Sergei, if I remember correctly. In the latter case, his gassing may have been partly induced from the damage Sergei was inflicting.
by The Darkness on May 6, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
With 10 oz gloves in K1 Overeem chin stood up. But I would not call his chin in MMA Tough at all when it gets cracked. Also the k1 chin comparison really does not homd that true, the only fight he over got hit solid in when fighting in k1 was the 2nd Hari fight.
the only fight he over got hit solid in when fighting in k1 was the 2nd Hari fight.
…which is even more of a compliment than having a good chin. The gloves definitely play a role but his defense has gotten quite good.
by HarmlessNinja on May 6, 2010 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Good article
Dont agree with it, but looking forward to the fight never the less. I feel Rogers is going to prove something to everyone
well I don't see these two
rolling around for 3 rounds. somebody is getting knocked out. maybe submitted but probably knocked out.
by doublewithcheese on May 6, 2010 12:20 AM EDT reply actions
If it does go to the ground Ubereem will destroy him
Overeem was always a grappler first and foremost, which makes his improved striking all the more scary.
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Fedor didn't destroy Brett on the ground
I don’t mean to say Brett won the exchanges there, but Brett showed some proficiency against one of the finest MMA grapplers, so I’m not sure its clear cut.
I think that was more due to strength
and he won’t have that advantage this time.
"Justice is the whim of a judge, check his chest density
It leaves much room for error, and the rest left to destiny."
-Sage Francis
Strength is helpful, but its not enough to neutralize Fedor Grappling
You need to have some technical skills which Grimm had.
Mean Guillotine Choke
Don’t forget Alistair has a good guillotine that is probably twice as nasty given his current size.
How good is K-1 Striking
The lack of overlap between K-1 strikers and MMA fighters really hinders our ability to judge the quality of Overeems wins. The evidence above could also be used to conclude that K-1 striking is overrated.
I’m not fully read up on the economics of K-1, but I’m pretty sure you’d rather be the best MMA fighter in the World as opposed to a K-1 fighter from a financial perspective.
I’m really just not sure how much better K-1 level striking is then “Some” of the striking in MMA.
I don’t think its inconceivable that Rogers could also be a proficient K-1 Fighter.
All that being said, Overeem should be favored in this fight.
Besides the last five seconds
The Manhoef/Lawler fight was a good example of good MMA striking vs good K1 level striking. Manhoef was picking him apart and would likely win a rematch.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
That is actually a great example.
Although it should be noted that Melvin is nowhere near top of the heap when it comes to K-1.
.. this should concern people, haha
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Do it.
DO IT
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by Damon O. on May 6, 2010 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
awesome post
thanks …. there was soo much precise precision.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
and Rec'd
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Good ol' Daniel Ghita...
Destroying fools with leg kicks.
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by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions
but still
isn’t saying a great k-1 fighter is the best striker in mma (hw division at least) like saying the most successful amateur wrestler is the best wrestler in mma? this isn’t k-1, just as it isn’t amateur wrestling. the game is different. i appreciate that badass k-1 fighters are badass, but i haven’t seen much proof badass k-1 fighters are badass mma fighters.
Melvin is nowhere near top in K-1, because he’s a 185 lbs fighting HWs.
Is Pete Stratt’s leg kick destruction of Lawler also the proof of K-1 level striking dominance?
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What I don't like about K-1 is the clinch/knee rule.
and the two knockdown rule. Kinda lame, (in my opinion).
by Anton Tabuena on May 6, 2010 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Two knockdowns is only in tournaments
In superfights it is 3 knockdowns per round.
Personally, I like the longer-form fights like they did with Masato/Souwer.
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5 OZ gloves
I agree melvin was destroying him, but 5 OZ gloves do allow for an MMA fighter to kinda wait for the perfect accurate strike as opposed to K-1 where there is more of a premium on volume. While MMA fighters could benefit from the ability to throw more combinations, there is a premium on one strike power with accuracy.
K-1 Striking is *very* good
Check out the Schiavello interview with Rogan from HDNet last week where Rogan goes on and on about that. I’ll put it this way, Cro Cop went on to become a legend in MMA and known as one of the best pure strikers and he was nowhere near the best in K-1.
From a financial perspective it is actually a whole lot more lucrative to be a top level K-1 fighter than even a UFC fighter. K-1 is a global brand, unlike any other martial arts promotion. What is funny is the only place it is really lagging in promotion is the United States.
Overeem and his management told me they were really happy working with K-1 because of all the sponsorships Overeem was getting. They had a ton of leverage because K-1 is aired in influential countries in Asia and Europe, which means more $$$. That is on top of the money K-1 was paying, which was substantial.
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America is completely bizarre with it’s sporting habits. Our most popular sport (Am. football) is largely ignored everywhere else. We do NASCAR, everyone else does Formula-1/open-wheel. We ignore soccer, rugby, etc. Odd.
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by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah seriously
So it is always harder for people to understand just how popular sports in the rest of the world are.
Kickboxing is like a global thing, America has just never seen real value in it and has yet to really produce a strong name in it. Until we do, nobody will care.
It is the same thing with soccer, nobody cares until the US strings together a strong team for the world cup, but hell, we never make it that far anyway.
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I don’t even like football that much, but I like the Saints. It’s a cultural thing.
I have trouble following team sports – too many people & positions to remember.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
The U.S. could win the World Cup
…and Americans (myself included) still wouldn’t care for long. We get interested in soccer once every four years, kinda like the olympics, but it just isn’t part of our culture.
When every kid in America started playing soccer in the 1970s and 1980s, people thought that would translate into appreciation of the sport at the highest levels. That hasn’t happened. I played soccer for years as a kid and don’t watch it at all now.
The reality is — and remains — that elite American athletes don’t become soccer players. If you make it to High School and you’re a stud athlete, you get snapped up by the Baseball, Football, Basketball, Wrestling (and in some northern states) Hockey teams. Soccer in this country is for undersized suburban kids who aren’t fast enough to run track or strong enough to tackle a wide receiver.
Twenty years from now, soccer will still be a niche sport in this country, because there simply isn’t any real force for change that hasn’t failed already.
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by Dave Strummer on May 6, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Love it.
I’m always peeved that Am. football is seen as the most macho of sports here, but they hide under all that padding. I get why hockey or lacrosse players wear it – their respective projectiles can reach +100mph. But football without the pads is just rugby, so why bother? Aussie-rules players don’t need it. Rugby players don’t need it. Soccer players don’t need it.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Just don’t think anyone has actually answered this yet.
Suffice to say, you get hit harder and more often in football.
Rugby is an endurance sport, that lifts and slams, and no
doubt it hurts. But on the line football, every play is smashing
guys into each other…couple that with the fact rugby players
aren’t 300+ lbs of muscle running 4.2 40’s and then spearing you.
It’s endurance vs. explosiveness.
Rugby players get hit…but they don’t get checked like football guys do.
Suffice to say, a hit from a pro football player w/o pads is likely to kill someone.
-——
On the Roidareem issue; I think he beats rogers in two.
by Paytience on May 6, 2010 3:41 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
LOL…
Try playing hockey then. Instead of running, you’re on skates hitting 50 mph and running into another guy going 50 mph. You die. I’ve been on the brunt of so many hits, got put through glass once, and have a solid amount of stitching scars in my eye area.
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by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Hockey and lacrosse are, in my mind, tied for the most physically brutal and gruelling non-combat sports around, with American football and rugby close seconds.
Though you could make the argument that lacross especially is a combat sport.
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Lacrosse is pretty brutal, but they can’t get the speed that skates on ice give ya. I never got completely knocked out cold in hockey, luckily. But I did get put into the board pylon by the benches once, and through some glass another time. I took a puck in the eyebrow off a slapshot that careened off the boards, and I ate a 98 mph shot in the center of my back in a tournament in Ohio. I literally went limp for 2 or 3 minutes. It was like an adventure if my team needed me to play power forward and stand in front of the goalie.
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by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
The thing with lacrosse is that the rules allow for essentially using a weapon when you hit. Lacrosse hits can be especially brutal if they are unexpected, too, because the hitter can completely plant their feet. I’ve seen people take hits in lacrosse that looked a lot like they ran as hard as they could into a telephone pole. There certainly isn’t the “blast you into outerspace” hits that you get in hockey, but the gruelling, grinding slashing and cross-checking combined with the occasional monster hit makes it a really nasty game. Every game I’ve ever been in finished with half my team bleeding, wearing ice packs, and wrapping multiple joints.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
NHL has really become strict in use of the stick. Hits are a bit more strict too, but I remember when hooking a guy’s wrist wasn’t illegal at all. Now they actually call that as hooking.
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by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Blame the Swedes: the neutral zone trap nearly killed hockey.
I’m not sure about the new rules with respect to hits. I mean, something had to change because guys’ careers were ending left and right thanks to blind side, shoulder-to-head hits. But I really want to make sure the physicality of the game isn’t eliminated. I seem to recall a movement to get rid of the hard plastic shoulder pads a while back, and I think that’s a good step, but I don’t remember what happened with that.
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you've clearly never played football
The hits in football are much harder. I’ve played all of the sports you named, albiet AFL wasn’t at all serious – football players take much harder hits because of the extra padding.
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by Cory Braiterman on May 6, 2010 5:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Football hits harder because a) the players are larger, and b) the padding dissipates the energy the hits. A rugby hit is concentrated on one spot, while you feel a football hit throughout your body. See the physics here. If they eliminated my least-favorite thing about football (all the stoppages of play), the massive linesmen and tacklers probably wouldn’t have the stamina to play all 60 minutes. You’d see a shift to leaner, faster players, like a team full of running backs.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
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by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
stoppages in play >>>> continuous sloppiness
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on May 6, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Rugby and soccer aren’t any sloppier than any other sport.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
The failure rate in soccer is astronomical. Measured against football, the number of game changing mistakes (as measured by turnovers, missed shots on goal, botched runs) is through the roof.
Maybe things would be better if they stopped to call a play…
…and used their hands.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on May 6, 2010 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see how that equates to sloppy play. Thats like saying “a high batting average is .300, so he misses 70% of the time – what a sloppy batter!”
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Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Using that example, a soccer team that scored on 30 percent of its attempts would be the best the world has ever seen, right?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on May 6, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No clue – how would that compare to other teams’ scoring rates?
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no real way to measure an “attempt” in soccer. This is what pragmatic football fans will never understand. Football is a simulation of war, soccer is artistry on grass.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Oh, is that what it takes to appreciate it.
Like Pink Floyd. Gotcha. :-)
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Are you dogging on Pink Floyd?
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
No, I'm just saying that it needs some help to be truly appreciated.
Herbal help, at a minimum.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I’ve played both rugby and American football, and the difference is speed. American football is faster with more breaks, so people hit harder and can suffer a lot more damage. Honestly, the worst sport I’ve played, worse than either of those two, is Aussie Rules. I have no idea how those guys don’t die.
by Tim the Enchanter on May 6, 2010 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions
You know that on average one person dies every year playing American Football, yes?
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EXACTLY.
Except wish there were some way you could have made “with” all-caps, double-bolded and 4 times bigger.
I get that people like different sports – that’s fine. Admittedly, the only thing I have time to pay attention to anymore is MMA. But deciding that an entire sport is stupid because they wear pads shows that you don’t understand medicine, biology or physics.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
My biggest complaint about football is that it’s too slow – during the Superbowl, there was a total of 15 minutes of actual playing time. Out of a three-hour broadcast, they moved the ball the same about of time as one MMA fight. I understand that there’s a lot of strategy that goes on, and much of the game is played at the benches between the coaches, but I don’t get how that got to be the dominant sport when there are so many more with constant action.
As for the pads, I know why they wear them – because it’s such a slow game, played in sprints, the 250-lbs bruisers don’t have to worry about gassing and hit hard each time. I just don’t like the perception that these are the most macho athletes when there are guys just as tough, if not tougher, playing rougher sports.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Well...
That kinda depends on hat you mean by tough. I mean, the biggest, strongest, fastest guys in America are always going to try to be professional football players. That’s just being smart and going where the money is.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
True. I can't fault them for wanting their paydays.
I’ve played both soccer and hockey, and was a starter in both sports. I remember how grueling it was, playing the entire game with few stops, constantly getting jostled by the other team (especially hockey, where I once got slammed head-first into a board). I was knocked out during a soccer game after getting kicked in the head. It’s bizarre to me to think I played longer in one game of soccer then Drew Brees and Payton Manning combined during the Super Bowl. In the time it would take to watch the SB condensed to actual action, I could watch Guida/Sanchez or Fedor/CC or Garcia/Zombie, etc.
Why does Am. football have so many stoppages? Is there a reason? I honestly don’t know.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Why does Am. football have so many stoppages? Is there a reason? I honestly don’t know.
Lots of reasons…
When a player runs 40 yards down field to catch a pass and misses, he needs time to run back 40 yards to the line of scrimage, huddle with his team and then get back into position for the next play.
While this is going on, the coach much choose a new play, relay that information to the quarterback and the quarterback must relay the play to the team.
Once the play is picked a quaterback like Brees will analyze the defense and attempt to determine what they are going to do and at this point he will make adjustment according to what he sees. For example he will switch a run to a pass or have a reciever move to a different position or run a different route…
All of that is done within the 40 seconds between plays
The amount of strategy, film study, play design and game planning that goes into football is beyond almost anything you will see in almost any sport. That’s why I live american football.
Good point. I think baseball might be the only sport with more analysis to it – look up sabermetrics to see just how involved it can get.
I’ve slowly come to appreciate the mental aspect of Am. football, even more than the physical side. I really do recognize the strategy involved. When I start to study grand strategy, though, I turn to military history. The stakes are higher, the consequences more dire, and the calculations more complex. It’s just that from a sport, that’s not what I want.
I like MMA because it’s pure sport to me. Tactics are necessity to adjust to each and every opponent. You have your corner giving you advice from their vantage point, but fundamentally, it’s you versus someone else who will profit from your suffering, so you must defend at all costs.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The two things that take up the most time in my life are:
NFL Football and MMA
Thankfully, my lady likes to watch both!!
I follow football all throughout the offseason and MMA all the time…
As for the studying, the fact that football teams have a week to get ready for eachother and they have dpeartments that breakdown film on each team / player a week or two before that I still think football has more analysis.
Pitchers study a lot and I know players watch tape on batter and pitchers etc, but there is only one direction to run the bases…
Read Moneyball - you’ll see just how insanely detailed baseball analysis can be. Look at the number-crunching at Beyond the Box Score. It’s like a sport for middle managers!
I like team sports, it’s just so damn hard for me to keep track of that many players. I’d love to follow hockey or int’l soccer or rugby, but I get so confused.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, the go into some crazy detail there...
I was talking more about game tape analysis though. Where NFL team personel will reiview footage on individual players to find slight tells based on posture head movement, handmovement to determine if a receiver behave differently when he is gonna get the ball.
Or to determine what plays are most likely to come out of certain formations, or how a quaterterback reacts to a certain defensive formation so they can bait the player into a bad decision.
The play to play analysis if the NFL is crazy…
Yeah, the diving’s a bitch…
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to point out real rugby (not Aussie-rules) has got to be the most macho sport out there. If you haven’t watched a match, do it. I played football in college and after I graduated played 4 years of club rugby. That is a fun sport man. The best part is after you beat the crap out of each other to get drunk with the other team. Its great.
There’s also cricket, where you drink with the other team DURING the game!
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
My high school had a rugby team instead of a football. It was awesome. Legion Rugby FC!
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you really want to say that K-1 stars are making more than UFC stars? Really? Or do you want to say that K-1 stars are making more than average UFC fighters?
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On average, yeah.
I don’t think anybody is making Brock money, no.
With sponsorships they do extremely well. For a guy like Overeem it helps him a lot, K-1 paid him a ton to participate in the WGP and he got some big money sponsorships out of it.
I mean there is a reason why a guy like Badr Hari has a single sponsorship in Kia as opposed to MMA fighters with some energy drink on their ass and some blog on their leg.
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Hari is the only guy with Kia sponsorship and I bet he’s not making anything near GSP money.
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You can bet on BetClic. Bring some facts to back it up or stfu with those speculations out of your ass.
Neither me, nor D.W. knows exactly how much GSP or Hari makes, so we’re both speculating.
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Yep.
I only know what I’ve heard from managers I’ve spoken to. Your average K-1 fighter will make more than your average UFC fighter, your superstar UFC fighter will probably make more money, obviously.
… and jin, be nice to Venom, he is a good dude.
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Isn't the stable of K-1 figthers way smaller?
I think that would explain that pretty clearly.
k 1 striking is on a different plane. Which is obvious considering this is all these guys train at. Watch a k-1 match and you will see fluid footwork/headmovement , proper use of the jab (very underused in MMA) , and one of the most notable differences is hand/kick speed.
I've watched K-1
Not as much as a lot of the people on here and I don’t question K-1 strikers technical superiority, but we need to acknowledge some differences.
1. K1 strikers are more free to throw kicks since they don’t have to worry about takedowns.
2. In MMA with smaller gloves (i.e. you can hit harder and have less ability to cover up) there is more of premium on 1 shot timing (watch Anderson Silva, Fedor, Jose Aldo or Paul Daley)
I’m not saying, at all that K-1 Striking isn’t better or that K-1 striking skill won’t translate, but it’s not that simple. I don’t think Manheof would have a striking advantage over Anderson silva for instance, and I don’t think anyone would say that.
What I’m saying with Roger’s isn’t that he’s favored, but he can grab a kick and land a few massive GnP shots…This will retrain Overeems kicks a bit which could allow rogers to get inside and unleash pretty solid boxing with Big power.
I’m just tired of K-1 fanboys refusing to acknowledge any meaningful differences between the two.
by SES 84 on May 6, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
They are obviously different.
As you mentioned, not much worry about takedowns or ground fighting.
Rogan brought this up last week and it is true, not every elite K-1 fighter could translate to MMA. Peter Aerts would never fight MMA, he spent his whole career kickboxing, learning grappling would be pointless.
Anderson Silva is an exception to everything, so saying Manhoef wouldn’t have an advantage over him means nothing. I think I’d love to see like Manhoef vs. Vitor Belfort, though.
Focusing on one thing let’s you master it, so not being concerned with getting taken down means a kickboxer can focus on the meat and potatoes.
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Manhoef- Lawler
Is actually a good illustration of the difference though. Not to say that Manhoef wouldn’t be favored in the future, but Lalwer showed how with 5oz gloves the mma striker can time one shot. So under MMA rules, I’d favor Alves, Daley, or Belfort standing just because of the threat of a takedown and because of the small gloves which change the game.
It should be noted regarding Overeem
That he was a good MMA fighter to begin with, then became elite at K-1. He had diverse skills before hand, then polished his striking to a world-class level
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
What we haven’t seen from Rogers is the bad ass kicks the K1 guys have. He reminds me a bit of Buentello in that regard and that could turn out to be areal problem because that will allow Overeem to control the distance.
i agree, that Overeem has a technical striking advantage but Brett has a path to victory, despite the striking advantage. If Brett steps inside he can still unleash massive fists and in combination that can take Overeem out. He can also catch one of those kicks (something K-1 Fighters don’t have to worry about and hence why they throw a lot of them) and take Overeem down. Sure Brett isn’t a grappler, but he can uleash some of that vicious GnP we saw before.
Sure Overeem might be better at a “Natural” weight, but huge muscle guys like that often gas. If Rogers the fight goes to the ground we could easily see Overeem get gassed.
It’s the knees he needs to worry about. One or two of those to the body and you die of internal hemorrhaging; if you take one to the head, well, see the .gifs below. (Note that Fujita’s head is generally considered to be just mildly softer than a diamond.)
by The Darkness on May 6, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
DEATH



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by Damon O. on May 6, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Alistair, what is best in life?
Overeem: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on May 6, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I want to see Overeem rematch that little girl with drug testing before I make any judgments.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
by Neil Manich on May 6, 2010 12:45 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I heard she was on HGH. I demand olympic style testing.
by The Darkness on May 6, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, you thought we wouldn't notice?

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@deowade
I've drinkin' the kool aid...
and I like it. I think that Overeem is going to go all “shock and awe” all over the entire Strikeforce HW division.
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I’m with punchdrank. Assuming he tests negative, I don’t think Rogers comes out of the first round. You can’t tell me that friggin knee isn’t the most lethal thing you’ve ever seen. It’s combination of leverage, mass and speed is completely without equal.
I reserve judgement on the juicing until he tests for it. Until then I’m just going to enjoy watching him terrorize people.
I'm picking Overeem to win but...
I think Rogers size keeps this fight competitive for a couple rounds. Rogers is plenty big and strong in his own way and Overeem isn’t going to be able to just throw him around right off the bat.
Overeem KO, round 3.
completely agree with you guys. I love Rogers, but I think people are going to be amazed when they see how out classed he is. I don’t think he will get that knee unless it goes into latter rounds (which I doubt). Rogers is pretty strong to get pulled down like that and I don’t think he will go for the takedown.
Can't say anything bad about his skill set, but...
I don’t think he belongs where he is on MMA rankings.
Unless voters are going 100% subjective and transferring his K-1 to MMA, there is no way to justify a top 10 ranking. That is a plain simple truth.
I agree top 15 Yes top 10 No. Very hard to put him in the top 10 on the HW talent he has beaten. Sure alot of highlight reel KO’s the last few yearsa at HW but look at the names.
So when he beats Rogers then..
Would you say top 10?
Rogers is top 10 right now and honestly, if Overeem beats Rogers I see Overeem taking his spot.
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Definitely top 10 if he beats Rogers.
but on MMA accomplishments, he doesn’t deserve to be in the top 10 right now… (skills wise, definitely)
by Anton Tabuena on May 6, 2010 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions
This is also why I'm not a fan of rankings, generally
Overeem is clearly, skill-wise, top of the heap.
The fact that Randy Couture is considered a better Heavyweight at this point is really funny to me, but according to how rankings are done he is.
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yeah I agree.
but I think the best way to do it is if you based on accomplishments just to take out all the bias, and subjectivity… trouble is, some rank objectively, some rank subjectively, some rank using both.
by Anton Tabuena on May 6, 2010 1:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I always figure in awesomeness to my rankings
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
but yes,
Ubereem would run through Randy like he does with sushi.
by Anton Tabuena on May 6, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
probably because Overeem has next to no quality wins in MMA
ever.
ever.
His best wins have come against: Buentello, Belfort (when he was in his dogshit era) and Kharitonov (and cro cop I suppose, shrug?). With the possible exceptions of Belfort, Kharitonov and CC, EVERY time he’s stepped up in competition, he’s lost. Lidell, Lil Nog, Werdum, Arona, Rua, and a rematch to Kharitonov. It’s fine to think that he’s going to dominate people, but until he goes out there and actually does it, the record speaks for itself, which is also what the rankings should reflect. Let’s put it this way, we all thought Lesnar was going to be a beast when he beat Kim and lost to Mir the first time. He wasn’t ranked in the top 10 at that time.
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by Cory Braiterman on May 6, 2010 5:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Lidell, Lil Nog, Werdum, Arona, Rua, and a rematch to Kharitonov
The X-factor here: how many of those fighters are 205ers? He fights differently since moving to heavyweight. Kharitonov is, I think, the only real HW on that list, and he’s 1-1 with Overeem.
I’m not saying the hype’s legit, but there’s been a lot of changes in his recent career.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
And like you said Kharitonov avenged that loss to Overeem. I might be wrong but weren’t bolth the fights fought at 205 LHW not HW ? Thats a fight I really want to see a rubber match. I really thought FEG would give us that fight at Dynamite eather this year or last but no we get Fujita instead of Overeem fighting Sergei, Arlovski or Tim Sylvia.
Talent only goes so far and should not have any say at all as to where a fighter is raqnked in his devision. And Randy Should be considered a more established HW then Overeem on competition he fought at HW and the names of his wins. Overeem has fought no one at HW besides CroCop and that was a no decision. He has to fight top competition and beat top competition to be a top HW in MMA bottom line.
"Unless voters are going 100% subjective and transferring his K-1 to MMA"
This.
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by punchdrank on May 6, 2010 1:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd....I enjoyed the article but my main problem
is that MMA keeps getting brought up and yet, none of his MMA fights are mentioned. People call him out for his weak record (as far as opponents are concerned) in MMA not K-1 which are completely different kinds of beasts.
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uhhhh
brett kinda stands no chance in this fight, its gonna be kinda like that sylvester fight, overeem is gonna land one nasty punch and rogers is gonna be so overwhelmed and just try and survive after that, only brock, carwin, and FEDOR could really legitimitly murk him.
i got overeem by first round tko starting off with a nasty knee and just pounding on his fat head till z ref cums in:)
by TobikanJudan 6 6 6 on May 6, 2010 1:50 AM EDT reply actions
Either Rogers comes in all guns blazing or he tries to get this to the ground fast. If the game plan is for him to stand for 5 rounds with Overeem then his coaches will need to be charged with criminal negligence causing death.
Check out how many sub wins Allistar was. If Rogers takes him down he will probably get submitted. I haven’t seen any of the submissions but the record should really say something about his skill set. Its more well rounded than people are giving him cred for.
Did you not watch the Fedor fight
Rogers could deal with Fedor’s grappling. Not to say that Brett could have spent multiple rounds with Fedor on the ground and survived, but Fedor is one of the best MMA grapplers and Rogers could deal with him and even do some of his own damage on the ground
Overeem’s grappling is no where near Fedor’s Brett can take Overeem down lay on him for a bit and deliver some GnP without being instantly submitted.
Also think its you know possible, that all that muscle and kboxing training has hurt overeems grappling
Overeem’s grappling is no where near Fedor’s
What? Overeem was a grappler first, kickboxer second. Fedor is a chubby 230lbs, should be fighting at 205 if he cut. Rogers won’t be able to throw Overeem around like that.
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I think you need to get reacquainted with all Fedor's wins by submission
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Fedor-Emelianenko-1500
Also Sambo is a form of grappling so Fedor has a pretty decent background in that.
Yes, I'm perfectly well aware of Fedor's grappling
I’ve also been to Sherdog.com before, which is weird, right?
to say nowhere near Fedor’s grappling is crass, to say the least.
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Crass AND accurate.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Sorta defeats the meaning of "crass"
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Crass:
- without refinement, delicacy, or sensitivity; gross; obtuse; stupid
Not from what I see. You can be accurate and indelicate. That’s actually sorta my schtick.
Here’s the thing: Junior Dos Santos (and Forrest Griffin, and…) started out doing BJJ before he ever got into throwing punches. Does JDS have a better chance against Fedor on the feet or on the ground?
The fact that Overeem was a grappler first doesn’t somehow make him a grappling wizard. And it doesn’t make him better than Fedor on the ground.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Fedor subbing shlubs means what, exactly?
Fedor has a bunch of submission wins, totally, over guys with not so impressive grappling backgrounds.
Overeem has still been in the ADCC grappling championships, subbing everybody in qualifier and has faced way better grapplers (was subbed by some a few years ago).
Also, really, accurate but obtuse and stupid? I uhhh.. Yeah.
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a) Great job on the reading comprehension. I usually skip the middle bits too.
b) Yeah, it’s not like Fedor is subbing all the top competitors in Sambo tournaments. OH WAIT.
Say what you like, but Overeem would be a fool to go to the ground with Fedor.
Luckily for you, we’ll probably never find out because after the Werdum fight M-1 will negotiate Strikeforce out of existence.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Somewhat related, if you haven't seen this kickboxing match, you're missing out...
K1 Max Final 2008 – Andy Souwer vs. Artur Kyshenko
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 6, 2010 2:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well…it’s no Garcia/Korean Zombie:) Honestly, thanks for the link, that’s one of the best matches I’ve ever seen.
by Kwisatz Haderach on May 6, 2010 3:11 AM EDT up reply actions
honestly garcia and zombie might be the most insane mma fight we'll ever see
We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!
It’s obvious that Alistair is a better striker than Rogers, but who would be surprised if Brett hit him with one punch and Overeem’s wheels completely fall off.
I’m pretty amazed that K-1 experts here didn’t notice what’s Overeem real asset in K-1 bouts. He fights like a MMA fighter in K-1, wearing down his opponents with (illegal) throws, takedowns and in the clinch. He also covers really well with the big gloves.
Also Alistair wasn’t hit by many big punches in K-1. Only Hari cracked him hard in the second fight and it was pretty standard Overeem loss, when he was hit flush, everyone knew he was not coming back in this fight. Yeah he beat oversized Teixeira & Poturak, clearly shot Aerts and a bunch of cans, but I’d take Fedor or Cigano to knock him out every day of the week.
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He did use a lot of sweeps
They are not illegal, they simply do not score points. Big difference. Your average Muay Thai fighter uses a lot of trips and throws as well, but same deal, they don’t score points.
I don’t think I’d take Cigano over most people, his form is so so so bad.
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Seriously, don’t even explain this shit to people.
Hari does the same damn thing, and people get in an uproar over it. They aren’t i llegal by any means. Watch Pramuk in K-1 MAX, he does the same thing too.
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by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, I didn’t say anything about sweeps.
http://www.k-1.co.jp/en/what/rules.html
foul techniques:
4. Delivering wrestling or judo throwing or submission techniques.
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What throws did he get busted for and penalized?
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions
oh no, incompetent refs in K-1, how it is possible?
http://www.mmarocks.pl
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Incompetent referees? More like the promotion doesn’t care. That rule has never really been enforced.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
So I guess they’re still illegal, even if K-1 promoters don’t care.
http://www.mmarocks.pl
https://twitter.com/mmarocks_pl
I don’t actually remember him “Delivering wrestling or judo throwing or submission techniques.” in a K-1 fight. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t remember any of that. I do remember some throwing, but K-1 seems to not care about anyone doing that. Hari does it frequently.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Show me a single wrestling or judo throw Overeem used
He used Muay Thai trips and sweeps, giant difference.
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I wouldn’t.
Overeem’s style isn’t going to be a K-1 in a MMA fight, guaranteed. And you can really see what he’s going to try to do from his previous “can” fights in MMA. He’s going to try to bury guys in the clinch. I highly doubt he’ll try to stand and trade for lengthy periods of time.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions
KICKboxing
Theres something else that Overeem has that most other kickboxers in MMA don’t have…
PROPER KICKS! He steps out for his kicks making them exponentially more powerful.
This video explains it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5iTWCwlZyM
Shogun is the best example of proper kicks in MMA today.
Manhoef is a kickboxer first, MMA fighter second.
by HarmlessNinja on May 7, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Deo Wade posted the gif of Andy Hug’s awesome spinnin back kick to the lower thigh/upper knee
So I thought I’d post this highlight vid of Andy Hug here because he was my fav K1 fighter.
Even though you could easily say Overeem hasn’t had a win against top mma guys, I think everyone should watch the fights not just look at his record. In alot of those fights he was doing great until he gassed.
It appears that alot of that was due to the weight cut. As long as Overeem hasn’t lost his grappling ability since concentrating mainly on K-1 I see him being a massive force in the Heavyweight division.
Cutting gasses people
But so does being the incredible hulk…not sure we can assumed improved cardio
I think the reason people tend to pass over talking about his fighting skills and focus on things like ‘roids with Overeem is b/c when a lot of your power comes from cheating, it makes it hard to gauge whether or not you are that great. If he has been on steroids the past few years, then it’s not really all Overeem when we look at the fights for examples of his abilities. It’s a legit concern. Especially when one of the big points you make are that we should be talking about his “power”.
Second, the striking aspect. Being a good K-1 striker is about as good as being a good Boxer in MMA. Very useful if you have good enough mma game elsewhere to work your game. But all three sports have different things to worry about in the striking game and often someone overly trained in one of them will miss some basics in the other simply b/c its not as natural to them. That being said, at least K-1 overlaps closer to mma IMO. And if he can stay on his feet and make it a K-1 fight, he would be vicious.
And his chin? I don’t know that I’d say he has a glass jaw; but he isn’t known for walking through big chin punches in mma fights either. I’d go with average at best here.
"I'm going to strip them of their health. I bring the pain, a lot of pain."" - Tyson
Overeem’s mma competition may not belong in the ring with him but at least he’s going out and proving it by beating these guys in a minute… unlike other top fighters that I could name.
To me, he handles lesser fighters the way that a fighter of his caliber should and that means a lot.
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by exsanguinator on May 6, 2010 7:57 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
This
Fantastic point.
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K-1 guys, IMHO you are too excited about Overeem’s MMA future. He will lose badly once he faces serious competition (I’m not talking about Rogers).
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How about this..
We’ll see?
He destroyed everything in his path the past few years, has been training incredibly hard. I mean, if people see a future for Cigano uhh, well, you know.
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The difference between Dos Santos and Overeem
is Dos Santos is beating people who are borderline top 10, 15 and 20 in the HW division as opposed to borderline top 50 (being very generous with that, too). Again, results count. Overeem can squash all this talk with a win, but until then, the results have to be counted.
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by Cory Braiterman on May 6, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That knockout on Werdum was hilarious
Random hockey brawl uppercut, like what the hell.
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over-rated
overeem always lost to the better MMA opposition. so what if hes’ knocking out over-the-hill guys lately. look at his record when he was REALLY fighting MMA in 2005, 2006, 2007. loss, loss, loss, loss, loss, loss.
heart, will to win, being able to take a punch… these are things overeem has never really displayed, and i don’t expect it to change anytime soon.
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come on mate, some people here are trying to prove that gaining muscles will help your cardio and your chin
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That’s pretty bad logic.
He was fighting at a weight class in which he was completely drained out of his mind at weigh-ins. Heavyweight is to his advantage.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, people should stop drinking this Bas Boon kool-aid. Overeem lost badly to Werdum and Kharitonov when he wasn’t completely drained.
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How is this drinking the Bas Boon kool-aid? It’s obvious that Overeem’s extra strength and size make a HUGE difference. We’re not talking about a technically bad striker with a decent ground game anymore. We’re talking about a guy who have KO power in his knees, fists, and legs, and his weight is a huge factor.
I’m not saying Overeem isn’t beatable. He can be punched, and people saying his chin is granite are a bit over-the-top with that assumption. And I don’t think he fairs well against a black belt on the ground, but that extra size and strength would make a difference.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Nope, you were saying that Overeem’s losses where due to him being drained after weight cut. In fact he lost his major HW fights in the same fashion as his LHW bouts.
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What major HW fights? He lost to Kharitonov in his second full-time fight at HW, the second time around. He never had the physique he had today along with the striking he’s displayed recently back in those days. His first stint, he lost to Werdum… who was highly ranked, and he still wasn’t completely bulked up in that era either.
Personally, I think he needs a major fight now that will prove whether your assumptions are correct or not.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
He lost both these fights because he gassed badly, so I’m pretty sure his gassing had nothing to do with the weight cut.
You’re right the jury is still out there about Overeem future at HW, but I don’t think that fact that he bulked up a lot of muscles automatically resolves his stamina problem and chin issues.
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i seriously don’t even think it’s really about stamina and chin. rather, when the going starts to get tough, overeem gives up. it’s a question of heart. if overeem can quickly overwhelm or catch his opponents he looks like a world-beater. but when someone comes to really give him a fight, he loses.
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I think he needs to be pushed to answer those questions, so I suppose you’re right in that regard. I don’t want to get into a subjective debate over it because basically… we have differing opinions on the matter. I think his chin is a been susceptible, but I also think he’s improved. I think the tank is an issue however, so it should be interesting to see if Rogers can take him farther.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 6, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
here's what i'm saying...
some fighters find a way to win, even when they should probably lose. think fedor. even matt hughes, even though it’s an odd example. some dudes are born to be fighters.
other fights fight a way to lose, even when they should probably win. that’s alistair overeem.
it doesn’t matter what weight class or how much weight cutting did or didn’t take place. some guys win, some guys lose. alistair doesn’t have the heart of a champion.
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Personally...
If he devastates Rogers quickly, I’m picking Overeem and betting good money on him over Fedor. I love Fedor, and I have been a fanatic of his for years… but as time drags on… I don’t see how he’ll handle a 265 lb. behemoth like Overeem. If Rogers can actually prove how to do it, I’ll change my stance, and that’s why I’m interested in that fight.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
And this power is not limited to his strikes – Overeem can throw his opponents around with little trouble.
I disagree
Overeem can throw around kickboxers with no grappling training. Whoopee! Let’s see how he does when he is facing guys who are trained to resist those techniques and who aren’t completely washed up. He certainly wasn’t ragdolling guys when he was competitng at LHW, despite the fact the he was one of the largest men in that division.
The obvious counter-point to this argument is that Overeem’s big wins have come in K-1, and kickboxing and MMA are two different sports because of the ground game. This is true, and yet, if your opponent does not do the ground game, are they really that different?
Are you kidding?
MMA striking and K-1 striking barely resemble each other. Standing grappling and the threat of takedowns play a HUGE part in MMA striking.
Also, how can you say Rogers doesn’t do the ground game after watching him ground & pound Fedor? How quickly people forget that Overeem’s defense off his back is awful. I’m sure Brett & his team have watched the Shogun & Arona fights and are definitely considering putting Overeem on his back.
Rogers did well against Fedor on the ground but there’s no way I see Rogers going for a takedown, especially considering how dangerous Overeem’s guillotine is. Its not Rogers’ style, I think he’ll try and take Overeem’s head off, which is what I’d tell him to do rather than try a style that is unnatural to him. I think there’s enough doubt about Overeem’s MMA striking that Rogers will go for the KO
"If I had a green shirt on, a pink shirt, a blue shirt, If I had a fuckin' tie-dyed Hawaiian shirt from 1952, Bobby still won that fight" Forrest Griffin
there’s no way I see Rogers going for a takedown, especially considering how dangerous Overeem’s guillotine is
I’ve never seen Rogers shoot a double. The few takedowns I have seen from him have come from the clinch. I would not be the least bit surprised if he pushes Overeem up against the cage and works for a trip, and even if he doesn’t, it is still a threat that Alistair has to keep in mind.
I liked the article
but you’ve essentially taken MMAth, that does not work, incorporated K-1 stats, and created some sort of bastardized MMAlgebra. But other than that, I can appreciate you making your argument for Allistar.
From now on whatever event I am planning will be know as the ‘Bas Rutten Invitational ____’
Outstanding Article
I loved the ‘what if Overeem had done this in MMA’ hypothetical.
I think many MMA fans do not fully understand what a scary fighter Overeem has become.
Overeem really needs to come to the UFC, who wouldn’t want to see him rematch Chuck Lidell at HW?
"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard
Sure - why not?
Liddell’s an awfully big LHW as it is.
Plus, if he fought in Asia for a couple years first, I hear it wouldn’t be difficult at all for him to put on 30 pounds of muscle.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I had a reply typed out
when I read this a second time and realized it was sarcasm. Well played, went over my head the first time.
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by Cory Braiterman on May 6, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you, thank you.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I dont mind Overeen as a fighter. I just get irritated with people acting like he’s a top HW. Potential to be? Absolutly. But right now the guy has almost no HW record.
Although seeing how well Rogers did against Fedor on thd ground, taking Overeem down might be an effective and unforseen strategy.
They need to just get Fedor-Overeem out of the way. Its the last major fight SF has
by Paradoxx on May 6, 2010 3:49 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think if Overeem was a new up and coming guy he would get a shit ton of more respect even though him being in the business for a long time should get him that respect.
If you took a guy who was 250 monster of muscle who was one of the top K-1 Strikers in the world who had a ground game I mean cmon man. Thats some serious stats there.
Overeem Rogers should be a stand up war. Rogers has enough power to lower the advantage skill wise. This is HW there is no substitute for power time and time again we are shown this at least in this division. This could go either way and Im talking in a pure standup battle that I expect it to be.
Anyone know the odds for the Overeem fight? WTF?
Does anyone have odds for the Overeem vs Rodgers fight? Every site I looked on (bodog, mmaodds, and others) skips that strikeforce card all together…
What gives?
Sorry in advance if this is a stupid question, but i could easily find odds for every other fight I looked for except the entire SF card…
My prediction....PAIN!!!!!!!!!!

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