Strikeforce's Lack of Depth, Imminent Departures Fuel Matchmaking Dilemma
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 1:53 PM EDT
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Scott Coker and Strikeforce have certainly had better times. In the fifteen years that Strikeforce has operated, four of those years have been spent successfully promoting mixed martial arts in California. Major events such as Shamrock vs. Gracie, an event that broke an attendance record at the time, fed off the buzz surrounding the sport in the region, and that buzz translated into regional success that vaulted the promotion into talks with major networks.
In the last two years, Strikeforce has not only secured a network deal with CBS, created a home on Showtime, and bought out EliteXC's existing contracts to bolster their roster -- but they've also managed to promote some solid cards that brought great ratings and good revenue. Unfortunately, times are beginning to change once again.
After a lackluster event marred by a post-fight brawl in Nashville, Strikeforce's stock has dropped substantially. While the brawl was the focal point of criticism by some writers and fans, the event's matchmaking has come under fire as being the sole reason why Strikeforce failed so miserably. The most recent conference call with Strikeforce confirmed that sentiment as some of the questioning revolved around matchmaking, more specifically -- the reasoning behind Brett Rogers' ascension into a title contention role after being defeated by Fedor Emelianenko.
Coker finds himself in a continued matchmaking dilemma. He can either create match-ups like that of the Nashville card that fill the demand from purists who want to see quality fights that provide answers to many of the questions that hardcore fans have been asking for years, or he can create entertaining fights that don't necessarily have the importance within the divisional rankings or in the landscape of the sport. They do, however, puts asses in seats and attract casual fans.
The Nashville card did provide hardcore fans with interesting questions, albeit the fights didn't deliver excitement. They did give off a sense that they could turn out to be boring technical battles before the fights took place, but most hardcore fans are attracted to the intricate technical battles. The question as to whether Japan's great submission grappler in Shinya Aoki could compete against a top ten lightweight American wrestler/puncher was answered. Could Muhammed Lawal's wrestling be the kryptonite to Gegard Mousasi's striking and grappling? Did Jake Shields have the skills to compete in the upper echelon of the UFC? We got our answers.
But from a casual fan standpoint, those questions didn't need to be answered. Those fans wanted exciting fights, and Strikeforce's Nashville line-up provided nothing during the broadcast with the exception of an in-cage brawl following the fights.
How does Coker remedy the problem? Strikeforce's Heavy Artillery card is a step in the right direction. Not only does it have a few battles that interest hardcore fans, but it does have the potential to be an explosive card for casuals. While fans have criticized Coker's instinct to match Brett Rogers against Alistair Overeem despite Rogers being defeated by Fedor Emelianenko, the results will more than likely end in spectacular knockout fashion. Andrei Arlovski vs. Antonio Silva, Ronaldo Souza vs. Joey Villasenor, and Roger Gracie vs. Kevin Randleman all have premonitions of being quick affairs as well. They also have foreseeable boredom angles as well, but we'll hope for the best.
Coker is in a hard place. He doesn't have the depth in some of his key divisions to create great fights. The middleweight, welterweight, and lightweight divisions need some infusion of talent, and it's going to be a tough endeavour with promotions like the UFC and Bellator gobbling up talent. Shields' imminent departure doesn't help, and most of his Cesar Gracie stars are setting their sights on the UFC as well. Can Strikeforce survive?
It's tough to say. I don't think Strikeforce will ever break out the numbers to give the UFC a run for their money, but they may be able to, at the very least, produce a Fedor vs. Overeem match-up. After that, they'll have to rely on the talent they've acquired to put on spectacular displays to increase their stock and attract fans.
The UFC is at a major advantage because their dominance in the sport. They not only have a mix of punchers who are willing to entertain for a sizable paycheck and chance to increase their fanbase, but they've got so much depth that even when champions route contenders on their way to a "boring" decision... another match-up is there to please the rest of the crowd rooting for blood and looping power.
They've also established stars through their reality series, and hyped coaching match-ups that weren't necessarily great fights to begin with. The UFC has a multi-faceted attack that gains interest from fans one way or another, and Strikeforce simply doesn't have that marketing department or a partner like Spike TV.
Depth is ultimately the problem, but Strikeforce is going to have massive problems continuing in the future. Another sub-par card on CBS will sink their network deal, and the lack of depth plays right into that reality as they don't have the fighters to create truly interesting fights. Personally, I'm only interested in seeing Overeem vs. Fedor within their heavyweight division, and while I'm a hardcore fan at heart -- it's tough to get excited about Strikeforce's prospects in the future.
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I was going to say...
…cue the chorus of anti-Zuffa fanboy singing the praises of Strikeforce and proclaiming that it has more depth than the UFC in any number of divisions to be named later because oh look at the time, I have to run, exercise for the reader.
But then weo^3 sorta beat me to it.
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Strikeforce is really fighting an uphill battle
Their matchmaking options are just so limited. But they also just make some straight up boneheaded decisions such as this Robbie Lawler/Babalu catchweight fight.
Lawler is their KO guy – he’s already floored Manhoef, and now he’ll probably do the same to Babalu. It’s entertaining and attracts eyes.
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by Scott C. Broussard on May 3, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s still a silly fight to plan. It’s a catch weight, so it doesn’t really do anything to help further anything along. And if Lawler is really thinking about leaving, it’s a meh-lose situation. Because Having a LHW beat a middleweight doesn’t really do anything for anyone, and a MW beating a LHW and then going to the UFC is a disaster.
Sobral is pretty much the only LHW they can match up against King Mo...
Sending him to slaughter would be a silly idea…
pretty sure they're training partners or something
so that matchup wont happen anyway
Hmm... I Guess they will have to build a shelf to put Mo on then...
Dude doesn’t want to fight in dream either… Aside from Hendo, who is left.
Lawler vs Babalu is a good fight. Just not headline material.
Scott Coker booked San Jose to promote the next Nick Diaz fight.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Meh
I don’t like that fight. It stinks of a setup the same way Hendo-Shields stunk of a setup. They suspect Robbie is going to bolt as soon as his contract is up so they put him in the cage with a much bigger guy who is a specialist at Robbie’s weakness (submission defense). I’m sure Chou & Coker are expecting Babalu to bully Robbie up against the cage, take him down and submit him. Then they can put out a press release crapping all over him as not being ‘Strikeforce caliber’. Once again, Strikeforce is betting on the outcome of a fight and hoping to tarnish a guy on his way out the door.
I think you are looking too far into it.
They announced Lawler has the headliner of the card but did not announce an opponent. The folllowing day, the DREAM LHWGP got cancelled and Babalu was free so they booked the match. Random match up but not betting on the outcome.
Strikeforce catchweight fights are a trademark.
There are plenty of other MW’s to choice from. SF was betting Manhoef would KO Robbie, now they’re betting on Babalu subing him.
Really?
Manhoef/Lawler was Strikeforce betting on Manhoef to KO Lawler? It wasn’t a replacement fight because both Benji Raddach and Trevar Prangley got injured and where unavailable to fight in December? Nor did the fact that Lawler turned down a fight with Jacare have anything to do with it? Or that Mahoef/Lawler was one of the fantasy matchups Coker had been discussing ever since the Dream/Strikeforce co-promotion was announced?
And now Strikeforce has set up Lawler against Babalu because they are betting on Renato to sub Robbie? Then was Miller an obvious attempt by Strikeforce to get Robbie a loss by decision?
Yeah...
When you have a very limited number of options for title challengers, risking two of them at once in a catch weight fight is really shortsighted. Especially in a situation like this where it isn’t a matchup anyone was begging for to begin with.
The problem is the cross weight class fights. Putting Lawler in against Babalu is just dumb, and it could backfire. Lawler could win somehow, and his stock rise. He’s already disgruntled, and he’ll probably move the UFC at some point. A rise in his stock would help his case to leave.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Lawler could win somehow, and his stock rise.
Babalu’s chin hasn’t looked too sturdy in his last couple of losses. Like many of the pre-TUF MMA stars, all that wear and tear seems to be finally catching up to him.
Also, I totally agree that the cross weight class thing is bunk. This fight is a former WW fighting against a former HW. If Babalu wins, everyone will just say he was too damn big for Robbie, but if Robbie wins, everyone will say Babalu is washed up. There really is no upside to this fight and the potential is there for a pretty substantial downside if Robbie wins. It is pretty much a carbon copy of the Shields-Hendo fight.
a cung le vs Scott Smith rematch also makes absolutely no sense… It’s such a dumb fight to make now. They are trying to be WWE without having the capabilities of scripting. At the end it’s only gonna bite you in the ass like it did the first time (when cung ducked Robbie and Shields to then get beaten by a hand picked opponent) and just recently when Shields upset Dan henderson.
They are trying to script fights and if the fight doesnt go as planned re-write the script as a “reboot” with a stupid rematch hoping people forget about the first one… instead of just making sensible matchups and embracing the winners.
a cung le vs Scott Smith rematch also makes absolutely no sense
I think they booked that fight because it is one of the few matches that Cung is willing to take. I basically consider him retired, as acting seems to be his primary focus these days. Offering him a chance to avenge a loss might be the only way they could convince him to put his acting career on hold and step into the cage one more time.
Instead, let me just point out...
…that I look forward to Mayhem joining the elite ranks of Fedor and Barnett and becoming the first middleweight to be blamed for killing a promotion.
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Solid article. I think you’re right and it’s obvious that a large aspect of Strikeforce’s current matchmaking problems is the amount of fighters that will look to jump ship to the UFC once their contracts are up.
At the same time, I have to disagree with the assertion that Strikeforce lacks depth in the middleweight division. While there are definite contender problems with LW and WW, I don’t see the same problem at MW. Here’s a list of the top Strikeforce 185 pounders. While it obviously lacks the elite level talent of the UFC, there are a few elite fighters, some exciting fighters, and some fighters with name value.
Strikeforce Middleweight Division
Jake Shields
Dan Henderson
Robbie Lawler
Cung Le
Jason Miller
Ronaldo Souza
Scott Smith
Melvin Manhoef
Matt Lindland
Frank Shamrock
Tim Kennedy
Benji Radach
Toss in some possible quality signees (like Hector Lombard, Jorge Santiago, Mamed Khalidov, Paulo Filho, or Thales Leites) and the division will only get better.
So....
Welterweight
Aging Light Heavyweight.
Puffed up Welterweight fighting at 195
Old and disinterested
Puffed up welterweight
Fine but uninteresting.
UFC Washout and one-trick pony.
Already used up for their purposes as of last year
Hahahahahaahahaahahahahaha the definition of old and busted.
DITTO x Infinity
Who?
I’d forgotten about his existence, to be quite frank.
Which I would call a GREAT lineup.
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by jemaleddin on May 3, 2010 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude you can literally do that to anything. You just sat there trying to find reasons to dismiss everybody in the division. Solid job, negative nancy.
Jacare is possibly the best fighter not named Fedor under the Strikeforce banner.
He is right up there (and IMO higher than) with Mousasi, Melendez, Diaz
but he didn't have to try that hard
and that’s the problem. The thoughts that he listed for each fighter are the first thoughts that come to mind. It’s not like he was reaching.
“Fine but uninteresting” are not my first thoughts about Jacare.
by JRN on May 3, 2010 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
It's hard to dispute the rest though, isn't it?
And that’s just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
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Tim Kennedy is a top notch prospect that’s 11-2 with a win over Mayhem and just recently was able to start training full time.
He has quite the marketable backstory too, I might add.
US Army Ranger with combat experience in Afghanistan should play well with the fans…now if Coker can just be trusted to develop the guy….who am I kidding. He’ll ride his contract on the un-filmed undercard and eventually jump ship.
Hendo is a LHW that blew through UFC’s MW division with the exception of Spider.
Lawler is a true middleweight cutting too much to make welter
Miller is an emaciated and near death Welterweight
Souza uninteresting? You haven’t seen many of his fights maybe?
You only have solid points about Lindland and Shamrock, the rest is classic armchair criticisim. You could do that to any division of any promotion.
Hendo is a LHW that blew through UFC’s MW division with the exception of Spider.
Huh?
He went 2-1 in the MW division. He hardly blew through it. He put on a vintage Decision Dan performance against Paul Harris and blasted Bisping. That’s hardly running through the division.
He also beat Rich Franklin (I know it was catchweight but it still works) and he beat the Brazilian kneebreaker, luceres or something. It was pretty clear that Hendo was the #2 guy in the UFC with maybe the exception of Marquardt.
the Brazilian kneebreaker
That’s Palhares’ OTHER nickname (see: “Paul Harris” above).
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 4, 2010 4:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Besides listing one guy twice,
…I would dispute that he beat Franklin.
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but what are they doing with this?
Shields is on the way out. Lawler is fighting a light heavyweight and is rumored to be leaving Cung Le and Scott smith are fighting each other again, for some reason. Frank Shamrock is not fighting. Lindland is fighting some prospect on a challengers card. Hendo just lost a definitive fight to a welterweight.
you claim this is their division with depth, but even if you are going to call this a deep division, they are fumbling the ball when it comes to this division. None of those fights I listed will do much to help the division, and 7 of them are not scheduled to fight in the near future.
This is one of their most “stacked” divisions, and they have absolutely nothing resembling a plan that will help them go forward into the future.
See the problem is that Strikeforce has done a poor job promoting said MW with the exception of Scott Smith. Jake Shields is leaving, Hendo just got embarrassed, Lawler will be leaving, Cung Le was pushed but 2+ years away means no one knows who he is, Mayhem needs to get a televised win, Jacare needs to be televised, Manhoef was a one off, Lindland is on a challengers card, Frank is essentially done, and the other 2 are completely unknown.
While the talent is there, the fact that they aren’t promoting them means you may as well not have the division.
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The only thing that Leland would need to add to the article is the fact that due to limited funding, they can’t push these fighters like the UFC can. They can’t afford massive contracts on a challengers show and they don’t understand pacing to actually show more then 3 fights. There is no reason why people wouldn’t know who Jacare is, but Strikeforce has dropped the ball.
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I think he sort of touches on this.
They’ve also established stars through their reality series, and hyped coaching match-ups that weren’t necessarily great fights to begin with. The UFC has a multi-faceted attack that gains interest from fans one way or another, and Strikeforce simply doesn’t have that marketing department or a partner like Spike TV.
by dropkick101 on May 3, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Paulo Filho and Thales Leites are liabilities
Leites lacks the excitement factor that Strikeforce so desperately needs, and Filho…..well that doesn’t really need an explanation. These are things that they don’t need. I also see the UFC snapping up Lombard, Khalidov, and Santiago (maybe not Santiago) just to keep them from going to Strikeforce.
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@deowade
Well, their champion.. Jake Shields is likely gone. Henderson at the top doesn’t do much because I think he trounces most of the competition. There are some compelling fights. I’m not high on Le though, and Smith is simply an attraction, even though I love his style.
Souza is the best guy in that division in terms of giving Henderson problems, but I imagine he leaves the promotion if he attains that level. Manhoef vs. Smith or a rematch with Lawler would be attractive fights. I also think Kennedy is highly underrated.
If Strikeforce can grab Santiago, Lombard, Khalidov, Filho, or Leites… it definitely adds more, but I think the gap between contenders and champions will always be pretty wide.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
i honestly think SF will only pick up 1 or 2 at best of the other mws
the UFC needs mw contenders, that division is very stagnant for them, the lombard filho winner is basically a lock for the UFC, leites will be back, and khalidov and santiago im really not that high on but i can imagine them getting picked up as well
Your right Leland.
Moreover, Hendo wasn’t brought in to fight MW anyway. He was brought in to win the MW belt from Shields(who was presumed to be leaving), then challenge Mousasi for LHW belt and finally fight Fedor. The idea was a solid idea on “paper”, but, the whole thing blew up in Coker’s face. I wonder what the talk around these boards would be “if” Hendo won, Mousasi won and Fedor was ever gonna fight again? I like Strikeforce when they stick to what they know. They appear to be completely out of their league with respect to Fedor. If Strikeforce can just put on some entertaining fights, they can continue to carve their niche in MMA. But, stop thinking they are ever gonna compete with UFC, hell, WEC would be a better comparison IMHO.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
To add, I do feel that Strikeforce needs to pick up some more mid-tier fighters. It seems that with most of their divisions, there are prospects, lower-tier fighters, and then a few quality fighters on top, but no one in the middle. Of course, Strikeforce needs to make sure that their fighters get fights, and get them frequently as well (it took how long for Shaolin and Beerbohm to get a fight?).
Sorry but your list is full of match-up issues.
Shields is gone to the UFC to take him off the list
Hendo lost in an embarassing domination that makes it difficult to market him to casual fans or get him back into title contention
Le is more interested in making movies and is trying to squeeze fighting between filmings. It makes it difficult to build him to title contention for fear he walks away with the belt.
Manhoef is actually signed to Dream and not Strikefroce
Lindland is old, has zero fan interest, and finds himself on Challenger events because he has not won a fight since 2008.
Shamrock is impossible to build into a title contender considering he has lost 3 of his last 4 fights, hasn’t won since 2007, and only has interest in high profile fights
Strikeforce hasn’t used Radach in over a year and he was 1-2 in his last 3 fights
That leaves a MW division featuring Lawler (who wants to leave), Miller, Jacare, Smith, and Kennedy (who they refuse to promote). That looks pretty thin to me. Maybe 4 years ago names like Shamrock, Lindland, and Henderson can carry the division but not today.
Strikeforce does have three of the top young MW prospects in Tim Kennedy, Karl Ammoussou and Luke Rockhold. Throw Ronaldo Souza in that mix and they have a very solid foundation. Now they just have to find a way to start promoting them.
I think Rockhold has some serious potential along with Kennedy. Amoussou worries me, although I like his Wanderlei-like style. But that’s exactly it. Aggression can get him sub’ed against top guys.
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by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That's why he's called the Psycho
And maybe he’ll get subbed against he top guys but he has yet to lose a fight by submission. And in fact won his first five fights by submission, so I wonder if he’s overly confident in his sub defense.
He hasn’t fought the strongest competition. Definitely like to find out if he can continue that pace and aggression though. He might pan out.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
YUS!
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I completely forgot about Rockhold. What they need to do is put guys like Rockhold and Kennedy in with guys like Lindland, Shamrock, or Henderson. Fights like that become a win-win for the organization: if the prospect wins, you have a new contender you can build up and market. If the veteran wins, they get thrust back into contendership.
Fights like the one Lindland has coming up does nothing for Lindland or the organization. If he wins, he beats a guy with limited experience who no one has ever heard of. If he loses, he seriously tarnishes his reputation, pretty much ruins any future career he might’ve had fighting, and he’ll do so at the expense of a guy that will likely never turn into much.
Amoussou looks like a WW to me.
He looked noticeably smaller than Linhares in their fight and Lucio was muscled around by both of his UFC opponents.
Mousasi still looks like a MW
and Fedor looks like a LHW
Maybe it is an M-1 thing… Fighting abvove your proper weight class is crazy unless you are Fedor / Spider good…
My Questions were answered!
Just like the article said I wondered could King Mo’s wrestling and GnP neutralize Mousasi’s offfense? Check. Could Aoki submit and or defeat a high level American wrestler? Check. Could Jake shields handle the power of Dan Henderson? Check.
I watched the event with two of my friends. One a hardcore fan like myself, and another casual fan. While my hardcore buddy and I were not bored but content with the evening, my casual fan buddy was bored out of his f’ing mind. So yeah, Strikeforce is treading on tricky waters and I’m curious about a long term plan to keep fans around.
I don't want to be too mean to Dan here, because I like the guy...
… but the question Leland actually posed about Jake Shields was:
“Did Jake Shields have the skills to compete in the upper echelon of the UFC?”
And if the way we were supposed to find out the answer to that was by fighting a 39-year-old guy who went 3-2 in the UFC (and one of those 3 was a robbery/gift) that Zuffa couldn’t wait to get rid of, then I’m not sure I understood the question.
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Nah, Leland’s right. Henderson was still an elite level fighter going into that fight. His losses were a stoppage to the top p4p fighter on the planet and a close decision loss to Rampage, the champion at the time. He had a close victory, but still a victory, over Franklin who is still regarded as a top guy, a dominant decision over still-rising Rousimar Palhares, and a destruction of Bisping, who came into the fight with a 7-1 UFC record.
By your logic, anybody who isn’t a champion or the top contender in a division is not a member of the “upper echelon,” and that’s simply wrong.
I would counter...
but again, keep in mind that I don’t enjoy bagging on old Dan, that I feel like his performance is dropping off a cliff as he approaches 40. He just looked OLD against Jake.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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I think you’re absolutely right. Dude looked effin old and shitty after the first round. But what’s the saying? Hind sight is 20-20? Something like that. Point is, after his performance against Shields, you can argue that Hendo’s days at the top level are numbered, although that remains to be seen, especially if he wins big in his next bout. But I don’t think you could argue that going into the fight Dan wasn’t an “upper echelon” fighter.
Hendo’s performance was similar to Shane Mosley’s performance last Saturday.
by Polyhedron on May 3, 2010 4:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Up until the moment the fight started
…people who hadn’t realized that Hendo was pushing 40 could be forgiven for thinking he was the upper echelon of the UFC. Once he started moving, it became clear that
a) he should NEVER cut to middleweight again, and
b) he’s lost a step. A BIG step.
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Well, you could make that argument.
I’ve always thought Bisping was being touted above his ability by the UFC in their efforts to expand into the UK, and let’s face it – Hendo was WAY above his level.
But Hendo had those old man pecs in the Shields fight – watching him fight reminded me way too much of hanging out with my grandfather at the pool.
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Well, that’s not necessarily what I asked myself, but casual fans did. They know the UFC, and the hype around Shields was that he’d be leaving.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes Strikeforce has some issues with match making. But right now we have a massive piling on, judging every thing about Strikeforce past present and future on their last event. It is like when a fighter fights and then the next day every one claims they are the P4P champ if they win or their career is over if they loose. When the truth is some where in between.
Strikeforce has trippled the number of fighters they have under contract in the last year. A lot of that talent has been higher end talent like Souza, Manhoef etc. They could pull an Affliction and spend like there is no tomorrow but I prefer them like this. They have stepped up the number of shows they are doing in a year by quite a bit. If they are making money on those shows it will give them money to hire more talent.
They really need to start moving some guys off the challengers cards and onto the main cards though.
I don’t think this article is judging Strikeforce based on it’s last event. I think this is a serious look at the myriad of problems Strikeforce has going forward based on everything that has led them to where they are now.
Just BE.
by mattman73 on May 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The solution to any problem is a Grand Prix
Strikeforce HW Grand Prix: Alistair Overeem, Brett Rogers, Josh Barnett, Antonio Silva, Andrei Arlovski, Tim Sylvia, Fabricio Werdum, and Sergei Kharitonov. And also a challengers tourney with Shane Del Rosario, Lavar Johnson, Bobby Lashley, and Daniel Cormier.
Strikeforce LHW Grand Prix: King Mo, Gegard Mousasi, Dan Henderson, Babalu, Rafael Cavalcante, Stanislav Nedkov, Roger Gracie, and Antwain Britt.
Strikeforce 16-man MW Grand Prix: Mayhem Miller, Robbie Lawler, Ronaldo Souza, Melvin Manhoef, Tim Kennedy, Cung Le, Karl Ammousou, Traver Prangley, Matt Lindland, Joey Villesenor, Scott Smith, Luke Rockhold, Benji Radach, Jorge Santiago, Hector Lombard,
Strikeforce WW Grand Prix: Nick Diaz, Marius Zaromskis, Jay Heiron, Joe Riggs, and ? Ok need work.
Strike/Dream LW Grand Prix: Gilbert Melendez, Josh Thomson, KJ Noons, Billy Evangelistaa, Lyle Beerbohm, Shaolin Ribeiro, Shinya Aoki, Tatsuya Kawajiri, JZ, Hellboy, Eddie Alvarez,
by John Nash on May 3, 2010 2:03 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The answer is a grand prix but not of the guys you have listed. They need a grand prix of new talent. The winner then carries some legitimacy and can be thrown in with the rest of the pack with the expectation that people will want to see those fights.
I was being facetious with the Grand Prix
but if I did do it I think I’d focus more on the challenger card fighters.
They need to venture more into WMMA.
Gina, Cyborg, Marloes, etc… they always bring exciting fights. I can’t think of a time, other than Kaufman vs. Hashi, where a womens bout was boring.
There just aren't enough "High Level" female fighters to make it really work.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
It a niche that the UFC doesn't have, and SF can easily exploit it.
They already have the best 135’ers and 145’ers under their promotion already.
Name the Top 10 Female Fighters at 135 and 145
I’ll wait……
nottheface is right in saying that there just isn’t enough interest in it. WMMA right now is what Women’s Pro Wrestling was in the 70’s and 80’s. A side attraction that lacks “credibility” in the eyes of many. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again. WMMA won’t be big until the UFC creates Womens Divisions and does a TUF-esque show on Spike.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
WMMA won’t be big until the UFC creates Womens Divisions and does a TUF-esque show on Spike.
Holy crap! Could you immagine the drama in that house?
Women’s MMA without Gina Carano is completely useless from a business perspective. Unless Gina is fighting, no one gives a shit.
by Steve4192 on May 3, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s a chicken-egg scenario, though. The division won’t be big until it gets more coverage (TUF-esque or otherwise), but until it’s big there will never be enough fighters to justify the coverage.
Someone is going to have to make a bold business move at some point and try to create the market – supply, demand and all – or it will never get going.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on May 4, 2010 4:55 AM EDT up reply actions
bq.
In the fifteen years that Strikeforce has operated, four of those years have been spent successfully promoting mixed martial arts in Southern California. Major events such as Shamrock vs. Gracie, an event that broke an attendance record at the time, fed off the buzz surrounding the sport in the region, and that buzz translated into regional success that vaulted the promotion into talks with major networks.
Strikeforce needs to differentiate itself somehow.
The UFC has many, obvious tangible and intangible benefits going for it. The WEC specializes in the lower weight classes and does so brilliantly with some of the best fighters in the world. Bellator is doing the whole tournament style thing and is focused on treating MMA more like a traditional sport. Strikeforce? They’re trying to be a mini UFC with nothing that really makes it stand out except Fedor and a few fighters who will most likely jump ship to the UFC at some point. The free fights on CBS are great for people who keep up and know what’s going on in MMA but they don’t have frequently enough to have the casual fan stay excited about the promotion. They’re too far and few between. Plus they’re promoted awkwardly. To me Strikeforce needs to fight it’s focus and stick with it. Their strategy as of late definitely needs to be re-examined if they want to stay in the game for a while longer.
….and Fedor has deepsixed likely yet another organization.
Gatti. Dekkers. Pele. Aoki. Kang. Vanderlei. Basillio. Harry Greb.
by theworldsoldestsport on May 3, 2010 2:30 PM EDT reply actions
What's Strikeforces Competitive Advantage?
Maybe I’ll try to flesh this out at some point in a fan post, but here is the beginnings of the thought.
With any business I ask what’s your competitive advantage. Or what’s your business model? I’m a little unclear what Strikeforce’s is?
I think the only thing they really have going for them are.
1. They were more willing to play ball with Network TV, but they will soon lose this as they couldn’t draw.
2. They will co-promote. This was required for signing Fedor, but with Fedor’s management becoming increasingly difficult what’s the big advantage there? The other potential Co-Promote fights don’t seem that good.
When you look at the Japanese promotions, Belator, WEC they have distinct business models and reasons why they are differentiated from the UFC and therefore could succeed. I just don’t see any of this with the Strikeforce.
I think Bellator is running their ship extremely well...
I can see them growing substantially into something special…
by truck on May 3, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, when Strikeforce first got the deal… Coker stated he wanted to create entertaining fights and not necessarily compete with the UFC. Now, that’s somewhat changed. So, their business model is more toward ratings versus quality fights, but as with the last card… that really wasn’t what we saw.
And ultimately, this is a problem in MMA. Many fans want the quality, but promotions pander to the casuals. Eventually, the negativity starts to drain on the hype.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Just like anything else, there needs to be a balance. You don’t have to pick either exciting fights or quality fights; you can have both simultaneously. That’s what the UFC does for the most part.
The UFC has other ways to bolster hype though. Strikeforce simply has marketing and hope that the card pans out correctly. The UFC has better marketing, the reality show, and other revenue streams. Strikeforce doesn’t.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
The UFC has a 13 year head start
Surely that has something to do with the Brand recognition advantage the UFC enjoys.
I still think Strikeforce is ultimately good for the sport.
Anybody that provides top shelf content for free or really cheap is good in my book. Especially because they pay a fair wage to the fighters.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Oh sure. Not saying it doesn’t.
Strikeforce is good for the sport, but I question how well they can do in the future. Especially with another promotion like Bellator doing well and the UFC sucking up talent all the time.
I think they’d be much better and viable with just the Showtime contract and being a regional promotion personally.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
THey will probably never catch the UFC, but they have no competitors for the spot of second big MMA organization.
The sport is big enough and the UFC not big enough. They will do fine because they are actually run by smart guys who have no debts, unlike EliteXC. Strikeforce is the only big MMA organization outside the UFC who is not losing money. That’s quite an achievement and will make sure they will stay.
There will always be fighters who can’t reach terms with the UFC, like Fedor, Overeem , or who are in bad terms like Babalu, Hendo, Diaz. We need Strikeforce for them.
by HelloR on May 3, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly my point
This will especially be important as the sport grows.
20 UFC cards per year will just not be enough spots for eveyone to get the fights they need/want.
20 UFC cards
20 Strikeforce cards
Will better serve both the fighters and the fans.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
"Strikeforce is the only big MMA organization outside the UFC who is not losing money."
You know this how? Hell mmajunkie had an article up a few weeks back saying they lost money on the Strikeforce: Fedor vs. Rogers show.
Look I’m all for Strikeforce but there is simply no way you know how much Strikeforce, Dream, Sengoku, Bellator are making or losing.
Of course they lost money on Fedor vs Rogers
Fedor adds an extra 2 mil + to your payroll. But they are using him as they always planned to, as a loss leader. Fedor’s purpose is to draw eyes to their product and make it seem legitimate. He does that when he’s fighting, Now look at their other cards, except for Miami (which I think was an aberration since it coincided with the probowl and a massive amount of comps where given away) every show where the gate has been given has been around $600,000-750,000. Throw in the $700,000 Showtime license fee and a purse that runs from $500-750,000 and it’s a formula for some profit.
They just need an angle to compete long term
and i don’t see what their angle is especially with Fedor refusing to fight on a reliable basis.
I think they can probably do a decent job as a medium size promotion with Showtime as a home, but if you ask me they are as far from challenging the UFC as they have been in a long time.
People spend too much time worrying about being #1
Strikeforce shouldn’t be out there trying to kill off the UFC.
They should be out there putting on great cards and turning a profit.
No reason that Coke and Pepsi can’t co-exist.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Well how do you put on consistently great cards?
I think you need a deep stable of capable fighters, but what fighters are they going to be able to sign and keep? UFC cast aways? Right now if the UFC wants a fighter they will have them save Fedor.
Strikeforce needs an angle. What do they offer fighters that the UFC can’t or what areas can they thrive in the UFC is ignoring. They aren’t doing that consistently right now.
Sign UFC castaways or up and comming guys
The UFC is only rostering about 200 guys right now. I can assure you that there is more than 200 good Mixed Martial Artists in the World right now.
As the sport grows the number will grow.
Plently of room for a handful of good promotions.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I think they’d be much better and viable with just the Showtime contract and being a regional promotion personally.
News flash, this just in. Showtime is a national channel not a community channel. Strikeforce is also carried internationally.
Strikeforce taking their show on the road is like a band going on tour. You don’t necessarily need to make money for it to be a big success. All the free media attention when the circus comes to town is designed to drive interest in their main product which is the TV side.
Strikeforce did exit polling in Miami and Sacramento and it showed that 1/3 of the people at the show had never seen an MMA fight either live or on TV. That is good for both Strikeforce and the sport.
Under your theory Microsoft and Apple should never have started because IBM existed. Google should never started because Altavista already existed. Altavista should never have started because Yahoo existed etc, etc.
Strikeforces niche is they put on good quality fights for the 80% of people that can’t afford a massive PPV bill every month. When you can buy a stack of movies that the family can watch multiple times for the same price as watching one UFC event that you only get to watch once, the choice is easy for lots of people. If Dream, Strikeforce and Bellator go away I will probably stop following MMA. The UFC puts on a good product but I for one can’t afford it.
All those companies had an angle
Google could do search way better than Microsoft. Apple realized that IBM’s personal computers were impossible to use. I’m not totally sure what Strikeforce’s business model is now. Can there be a #2 national brand? Probably, but I don’t see the coherent plan to get there.
Initially Strikeforce had Fedor and that was an angle. They also had Gina and that was another. With the problems they’ve had they need to huddle back up and figure out what their angle is.
Strikeforce did exit polling in Miami and Sacramento and it showed that 1/3 of the people at the show had never seen an MMA fight either live or on TV.
They polled people as they were coming out of voting booths?
by HarmlessNinja on May 5, 2010 4:26 AM EDT up reply actions
UFC took this away
I think at one point Strikeforce had an angle.
They’d use women, they could sign pseudo-freakshows, they could sign movie stars.
Unfortunately for Strikeforce the UFC signed Kimbo and now Toney, even if they want to play a freakshow angle they don’t even have some of the best pieces to play with because the UFC has been very willing to play defense.
2. They will co-promote. This was required for signing Fedor, but with Fedor’s management becoming increasingly difficult what’s the big advantage there? The other potential Co-Promote fights don’t seem that good.
WRONG!
SF already co promoted with EliteXC (Shamrock vs. Baroni) and FEG (Dynamite USA)
Bellator is saying that they would like to see Melendez v Alvarez. I for one hope Coker takes them up on that. I personally think the best chance the organizations out side of the UFC have is to figure out some way to rank the fighters between them and get them fighting. That will help to get them all more attention. WAMMA seems to have cratered but some thing like it is needed. I know I am going to take a beating for saying that but thats the way I see it.
The problem with Strikeforce is that they barely have any homegrown talent. They’re not pushing any of the prospects besides Woodley and Cormier. The Challengers series was supposed to be for the very purpose of building up prospects and creating new stars. But, in reality, Challengers has been nothing but random fights from fighters you may or may not see again.Strikeforce should be building up prospects on Challengers then moving them onto the main shows. If Strikeforce wants to add depth then I think Challengers is the answer, but I feel it’s being misused.
PS- I don’t consider Bobby Lashley a prospect. He’s just a joke.
Lemonade was a popular drink, and it still is. I get more stunts and props than Bruce Willis- Guru
They're pushing Cormier?
They got me fooled considering they left him off the last challengers card (tv portion) even though his match lasted all of 1:20.
The lack of promoting Tim Kennedy is unfortunate
Considering that they had him main-event a Challengers card with his name on it and north-south the fuck out of the previously undefeated (10-0 I think??) but hapless Zak Cummings, which in and of itself should have been something that they could work with.
Strikeforce should not be criticized too much
And I am glad the second part of that articles make some points to counter the first part.
Strikeforce do some random match up (Jacaré vs Villasenor, Babalu vs Lawler) that you can question the interest, but they are trying and doing a good job at putting some meaningfull fights and exciting fights.
I don’t think you can blame them for King Mo LNP, theguy was very exciting in all of his fights, same for Mousasi. They just did not perform that night. Or Aoki vs Melendez, that was an excellent match up on paper.
The Heavy artillery card is perfect in my opinion concerning theses points. Some of the best fighters in the world, very intelligent match ups, and a probable fireworks in excitement. I don’t criticize them for putting Rogers vs Overeem, that fight has a build up who goes as far as one year ago. Two big and top HWs who dislike each other and want to claim something. It won’t go the distance, I am very interested by this fight.
I am willing to bet that none of the main card fights will go the distance. When the fight that has more chance to go the distance is Arlovski vs Antonio Silva, you know you will be excited.
I don’t think you can blame them for King Mo LNP, theguy was very exciting in all of his fights, same for Mousasi. They just did not perform that night. Or Aoki vs Melendez, that was an excellent match up on paper.
I’m not going to blame them, but it was pretty apparent that Mo wasn’t about to stand around striking with Mousasi. Unless they figured Mousasi would just truck him with punches and kicks, they should have saw that type of fight coming. Should they have not done it? No, I wanted to see it play out. But that’s the debate here. Should they have?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, Mo was not going to strikes with Mousasi, that was clear. But his LNP was not predfictable. He was killing his previous opponents with GnP and Mousasi was a killer as well off his back. I personnally would not have predicted a so boring fight, I expected a lot more.
You can’t have always the Manhoef vs Lawler type of fights, who are a given in term of excitements. I think they were very unlucky that their three big fights were all underwhelming. It could have been much more. Much more :(
I don’t agree completely. I was under the impression that Mousasi was good enough off his back to make it tough for Lawal to beat him down, and that’s essentially what happened. Mousasi wasn’t terribly effective, but he was effective enough to stop most of the big shots.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you can blame them for King Mo LNP, theguy was very exciting in all of his fights
Not really.
Prior to the Mousasi match, he had faced one opponent who was able to present him with some problems, and he spent the whole fight hugging Kawamura the same way he hugged Mousasi. The only difference was that Kawamura kept getting back up rather than chilling out and throwing hammer fists, which enable Mo to at least get a few sweet slams.
Strikeforce should be fine
People are always wanting to get hung up on the “who is where right now today” debate.
As the sport grows and more athletes gravitate towards it. New stars will replace the guys Leland is hung up on right now.
Look at 2007.
Tim Sylvia
Chuck Liddell
Rich Franklin
Matt Hughes
Sean Sherk
Held the major UFC titles. Not one of those guys are close to any title contention a mere 30 months later. Its the natural evolution of the business.
All Strikeforce needs to do is stay alive and continue to put on entertaining cards on Showtime and CBS if possible. Eventually there brand will grow and they will create a permanent niche.
The problems they are having right now, seem to stem from trying to please a fickle “hardcore” base that really has no idea what will be best for the sport going forward.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I disagree with one aspect of the article
Strikeforce Nashville did provide Hardcore MMA fans with answers to questions
How well will Japanese superstars fair in the US pond
Who is better mussasi/Lawal (great fight)
Can shields overcome overwhelming odds against him and survive Hendo
Huh? That’s what I said.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
How well will Japanese superstars fair in the US pond
I don’t think that one was answered at all. Gilbert Melendez, for all practical purposes, is a Japanese fighter.
I wasn’t going to list every single question that could be asked. Damn, you guys are needy.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 3, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor is so badass that
if you last a round with him you get a title shot.
j.villain is correct here.
MMA fans seem to use a tiny window of time, i.e. the last 5 minutes, to make drastic judgments on the long haul. Everything except the UFC is criticized using the UFC, i.e. the best possible example, as the standard of comparison. Its funny how everything turns out be be inferior when you compare it to the best.
Why is Henderson washed up and old now? It’s a little deeper than “he went 3-2”: the losses were to Rampage (former #1 LHW and UFC champ in a fight I thought could’ve been a draw), and Anderson (#1 everything, still). He kicked the shit out of Bisping and Palhares, and the Franklin fight (former #1 MW and UFC champ, top 20 LHW) was close.
Personally, I think it makes more sense to surmise that Shields is truly the under-rated force that many have heralded him as, and showed the elite level of his wrestling and ground technicality.
RE: “What is Strikeforce’s competitive advantage?” Really, none. They can’t compete with the UFC. The legit differentiators they have are co-promotion, which is beyond huge (think what their current state would be without DREAM) and I believe the single best avenue towards anyone or anything realistically nipping at the UFC’s heels. They have women’s MMA, which is a big gamble. It’s tough to kick-off and who knows what the market bears for it, but it could also be enormous if they stuck with it.
I completely agree with nottheface on the GP; what a great opportunity lost. I’ve been whining about tournaments in the states for years… it seems like such a no-brainer, as the hardcore fans would surely eat it up.
I also agree with the cat who pointed out that the UFC has a 13 year head-start; and they also had the advantage of not having an established and dominant king of the market to tangle with while trying to get a foothold.
The non-UFC talent is scattered between MFC, Strikeforce, Bellator, and DREAM; and Shine Fights deserves a big nod here as well. I would like to see all of them agree to co-promote together in a big fuck it all, blaze of glory power-move. Otherwise, any org other than the UFC is on borrowed time and fighting a losing battle, as much as I hate to admit it.
I guess for any of the other optimists out there, we can only hope they survive and start getting some more support.
The non-UFC talent is scattered between MFC, Strikeforce, Bellator, and DREAM; and Shine Fights deserves a big nod here as well. I would like to see all of them agree to co-promote together in a big fuck it all, blaze of glory power-move
I will go you one further. They should also have a big blow the doors off match of the top contenders twice a year. If Dream sticks around that would be Dynamite for NYE and a similar big block buster in the summer in the US broadcast on PPV. If it does well do it 3 times a year and throw in Europe.
WTF are you whining about
Nashville was a great card on paper with fights every MMA Fan wanted to see.
It didn’t turn out “casual fan friendly” but UFC 112 did neither.
Heavy Artillery looks incredible also.
If they don't change things
soon, they are going out of business.
That’s exactly my point.
Nashville was a great card on paper, but didn’t deliver at all on a network televised show. Now, some of those names are probably going to leave… with the most imminent being Shields. They also have dilemmas with other divisions.
Heavy Artillery does look great, but I still wonder about the rest of their cards this year.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 4, 2010 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions
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