Dana White Is Right: Floyd Mayweather and Manny Pacquiao Would Lose in MMA
by Kid Nate on May 24, 2010 4:43 PM EDT
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In an interview with Dan Patrick, Dana White talked about the prospects for the world's hottest boxers in MMA:
Patrick: "If I put Pacquiao and Mayweather in the Octagon, could you tell -- from their boxing skills -- how they would be in the Octagon?"
White: "I'm a huge Pacquiao fan. Pacquiao is a more aggressive fighter and his fights are more fun to watch, but either one of those guys would get beaten in mixed martial arts."
Michael David Smith begs to differ:
Obviously, White isn't going to say that Mayweather or Pacquiao could just waltz into MMA and beat the best fighters, but it is worth noting that it's far from unprecedented for an accomplished athlete in one combat sport toget into MMA and find success quickly. Brock Lesnar, after all, was an NCAA champion wrestler who won the UFC heavyweight title in just his fourth professional MMA fight.
...
Ultimately, I think White is underestimating how Mayweather or Pacquiao would do in MMA -- and in fact, I think Pacquiao would have an excellentchance of winning a championship in MMA if he ever wanted to try it.
...
But Pacquiao is a different fighter altogether. For starters, it's important to remember that Pacquiao is boxing above his natural weight class because after he dominated all the guys his own size he didn't have anyone else to fight. If Pacquiao were ever going to try MMA, he'd do it at 135 pounds. And the top 135-pounder in MMA, WEC bantamweight champion Dominick Cruz, would have his hands full in a fight with Pacquiao.
Cruz would try to use his superior reach to land some kicks against Pacquiao and then try to take him down, but Pacquiao is such a fast and powerful puncher that I would give him a real chance of knocking Cruz out in an MMA fight.
Now I have a great deal of respect for the acumen MDS, but I think he was off when he wrote this one.
Yes, Brock Lesnar did come directly into the UFC from wrestling and won the title in his fourth fight. But here's the thing: wrestling is the best foundation upon which to build an MMA career. Wrestling allows a fighter to determine where the fight takes place -- on the feet or on the ground. This means that a good wrestler can immediately nullify the offensive skill sets of both strikers (by taking them down) and grapplers (by keeping the fight standing).
Obviously, it takes more than wrestling to be a top MMA fighter, but it's a great starting point. Also, as the host of ESPN's "Sport Science" John Brenkus told Luke last night on MMA Nation it is much easier to learn good boxing technique later in life than it is to learn wrestling.
That's not all, boxing isn't even a complete striking art. Historically pro boxers have fared dismally when they've tried their hand at kick boxing. Leg kicks are a world of hurt for boxers who haven't trained to check them. It doesn't help that boxers have to get inside kicking range to land punches either.
There have been fighters from pure striking arts that have done fairly well in MMA -- Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic most notably -- but no one coming from a pure boxing background has excelled in MMA.
Some of this has to do with the dramatically greater earning opportunities in boxing which keeps boxers in their prime out of MMA competition. But nevertheless, I stand with Dana White in saying that pure boxers will never excel at MMA.
An as for Manny Pacquaio vs Dominic Cruz? Please, Cruz was a D-1 wrestler and would put Manny flat on his back in no time. From there it wouldn't be pretty.
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Kid Nate: Dana White Is Right
What game are you playing at here KN? I see through your tricks…
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 24, 2010 3:03 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
This whole article is a giant mindf*ck
To get us to believe he likes Dana and likes the UFC. I’m not falling for it!
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
Agreed - but what the hell is MDS smoking?
Sounds like MDS is arguing with Dana for the sake of arguing, which is boring.
I disagree with Nate’s description of boxing though. First and foremost, neither Botha and Mercer were approaching their expiration dates when they entered kickboxing. They were well passed it.
But, secondly, and more importantly, aside from wrestling…I think pure boxing is starting to integrate itself better into MMA, becoming as much of an asset as it is a necessity. Guys BJ Penn, Anderson, and Fedor are supernatural with their hand speed, and defensive movement and so I think are bad examples of my argument (yet are examples nonetheless when we look at boxing prowess in MMA), but look at the more workmanlike fighters by comparison: Edgar, Cruz, Griffin…achieving high levels of success with boxing fundamentals, whether it be Cruz with traditional feints (even though he looks uncoordinated while doing it), Edgar with his head movement and footwork (Edgar doesn’t get enough credit for being a dyed-in-the-wool boxing technician: the guy is masterful for an MMA fighter), or Griffin with just proper combinations.
Jordan Breen made the observation during the Sotiropoulas/Stevenson fight: look at what George was able to do to a very high level gatekeeper with just a proper jab, and a straight right. Nothing fancy, and George isn’t even particularly fast or powerful, but was able to outclass a solid fighter with boxing 101. Boxing also provides the advantage of using a striking style that leaves you less prone to takedowns, and to top it off, guys are becoming creative with it (or trying to) as well, like Mo Lawal with “The Cuban”.
by David Castillo on May 24, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Great response! I would even add that a lot of Anderson Silva’s success comes from exceptional boxing skill/technique. His fight against Griffin was all Ali-esque slips and counter punches.
"You go to hell! You go to hell and you DIE!!"
David and Mr Hat, I agree.
I would like to add to the original post. The problem FMJr and Pac Man would have in MMA is take down defense, sure, both men possess incredible footwork, speed and atheletic ability. But, being in a Greco clinch is much different then in a traditional boxing clinch. While both men would have an overwhelming advantage in the hands department, I would love to watch either fight a top level K-1 kickboxer.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
His boxing is not what I would call exceptional for boxing, but it’s exceptional for MMA for sure.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 24, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Although I'm not a big fan of his
I think Nick Diaz has excelled once he developed a Paul Williams-like stand-up game complete with head movement(for the most part) and what would likely be 100+ punches in a 3-minute boxing round. Of course it helps that he’s a black belt level grappler with underrated takedown defense, I just don’t think his boxing prowess gets much love when compared to other boxer-based stand-up fighters such as BJ and Edgar. I think that given his chin and punching output, he’d do fairly well as a professional boxer (not a champion by any means though.) A friend of mine is a 21-0 professional boxer and #1 contender for one of the alphabet soup organizations, and he told me that he was surprisingly impressed by both BJ and Diaz after I sat him down to watch a few fights.)
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
I never said that boxing
wasn’t a very effective part of a well-rounded fighter’s arsenal.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I didn’t say you did.
By “description” I meant your overall impression of boxing in MMA, which I assumed to be ‘unfavorable’, correct me if I’m wrong. You point to our examples of boxers trying their hand across different combat sports, and I think their poor performances are due to the fact that they were poor athletes by that time. As opposed to it being indicative of boxing as somehow not as efficient as other striking arts.
The great equalizer in this debate is athleticism. Look at Antonio Margarito, and Kermit Cintron. Margarito beat the piss out of Cintron, took his best shot, and made him quit inside of 6 rounds…TWICE. Yet who would doubt that Cintron would do better in the cage than Margarito (with or without illegally wrapped gloves)? That’s what intrigues me the most: boxers in their prime with the style, talent, and drive to adapt to the MMA arena.
It’s not the technicians that interest me from the ring to cage…like Mayweather, or Hopkins…it’s gonna be guys like Berto, Cintron, or Bute that have the potential to be the real threats (IMO).
by David Castillo on May 24, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I have the strangest feeling that Ive heard this somewhere before
myspace.com/tbma <--- Give it a listen, let me know what you think.
Proud conductor of the Shane Carwin hype train.
Shane Carwin hits you and even if your payin the bill it doesn't matter. Your lights are gettin shut off.
by II SMASH II on May 24, 2010 3:04 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
You left out the best part of MDS' article
how Dana said Floyd and Manny would get beaten but is gonna try and sell everyone that James Toney has a “chance” to succeed.
I think either fighter could succeed in mma especially if they could keep it standing but having to prepare for leg kicks, knees, takedowns, and submissions makes things a lot tougher.
See Koscheck/Daley if you cant stop a wrestlers takedown it’s not really gonna matter how well you can strike.
I don't think that Dana is trying to show that Toney has a chance.
I think Dana is trying to sell “Come watch Toney get his ass beat.”
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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by jemaleddin on May 24, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
James Toney is getting Randy Couture right out of the starting gate, it’s a definite “put up or shut up” move on White’s part. I would imagine that if Toney gets embarrassed in there that they will cut him after the fight, heck with Kimbo gone what else do they have for Toney to do in the UFC after Randy beats him?
It would take work
But I could see both of them being able to at least be competitive with people.
UDDDDAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
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E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!!!!!!
"fuk u i hate peas"- CNCITINFO (Random BGN troll)
given unlimited time and training, sure
they’d likely never be great at wrestling, but i don’t doubt they could put together a decent mma game.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
There are plenty of fighters out there though
that are terribly one sided. All they would really have to learn is kick blocking and basic takedown defense. They wouldnt win a lot but certain people they would be able to make exciting fights. Doubt it happens though.
UDDDDAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Η κόλαση δεν έχει μυστικά
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!!!!!!
"fuk u i hate peas"- CNCITINFO (Random BGN troll)
Provide an example of a successful boxer in MMA.
And preferably one that doesn’t wear one boxing glove.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
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Im not saying they would be successful
Im just saying it wouldnt be a slaughter. The majority of people would beat them, but there would be some fighters out there that have terrible ground games that they would be able to just brawl with.
UDDDDAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Η κόλαση δεν έχει μυστικά
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!!!!!!
"fuk u i hate peas"- CNCITINFO (Random BGN troll)
Provide a single instance where a world class boxer in his prime
has any incentive at all to compete in MMA. This is the problem with this debate…and with Nate’s kickboxing example.
The world’s best boxers (of which Manny and Floyd are 1 and 1a) have never competed in kickboxing or MMA, because it would be tantamount to taking a 90+ percent pay cut.
Clearly they would be at a disadvantage learning the ground game, but those guys are otherworldy athletes. No MMA fighter has ever contended with head movement like Floyd’s and no athlete on earth has Manny’s motor and power.
This is one of those questions that won’t be answered until there’s a good reason for the boxing elite to try their hand at MMA.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
To paraphrase: "Everybody talks about head movement..."
…But let’s see how that head movement works when you’re being choked out.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
quick visisualization exercise
Remember what Anderson Silva did to Forrest Griffin when Forrest tried to put his hands on him? Now picture someone who can do that to everybody on earth.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Well, as long as everyone on earth has a better game plan than "stand with Anderson Silva," that's just fine.
I mean, it’s telling that your example is probably the worst instance of planning since the Maginot Line.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Marcus Davis
20-1-2 in boxing and 9-4 in the UFC, featuring a 6 fight win streak.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
yep
And Davis isn’t in the Floyd-Manny solar system.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Nor is he in the GSP-Anderson Silva solar system.
Davis was a successful boxer who became a successful MMA fighter. So what if he’s never been number 1-2 in the pound for pound rankings of either sport? That’s just epic moving of the goalposts, because Davis meets the previously stated criteria.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I think I was agreeing with you
My point is that Davis, a middle of the pack boxer, made a successful transition to being a middle of the pack MMA fighter. So it’s hard to put a ceiling on what a Floyd or Manny could accomplish with some training.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
but only after he spent years
training BJJ and wrestling did Marcus become a middle of the pack fighter.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Right, but Davis’ physical gifts pale in comparison to Manny/Floyd. Nobody is suggesting (I don’t think) that they could walk into a ring tomorrow and hang with top competition. But give either of those guys a few months of intensive training and they could pose a serious, serious problem to the guys at their weight(s).
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
it'll take more than a few months
for them to contend at the highest levels.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
That's fair
I just think that their skill sets and natural gifts would carry over extremely well into MMA, should they ever choose to try their hands, which, again, I don’t see them doing.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
What I believe in-their-prime professional boxers possess that isn’t being taken into account is their ability to push their bodies absolutely to the edge of physical constraints (something we often attribute as a clear advantage to wrestlers). A 25 year-old high level professional boxer with an excellent amateur record and 3-5 years of mma specific training could certainly be the type of fighter that could win a UFC title.
I think we have to draw a distinction between a professional boxer with adequate training in mma and a high level pro boxer who has 2-3 months to learn the mma game. A pro boxing base would be terrific for any fighter were he to have 2-5 years to work his wrestling/jiu jitsu/clinch game with a decent camp. Marcus Davis has been brought up as a fighter that fits this description, but he was far from a top fighter, so that would be akin to comparing how a Wilson Gouveia would do were he to enter professional boxing, as opposed to a GSP or BJ Penn.
I’m obviously in the naive minority, but I honestly believe that, given a 6-8 month camp, Manny Pacquiao or Floyd could beat an entry level UFC fighter coming off of the regional circuit (caveat: not a former collegiate wrestler). When it comes to preparation, both Floyd and Pacquaio are on another level.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
A few months isn’t going to cut it. Heck the Marcus Davis example is a prime example of what it takes. Davis started professional boxing in 1993, he started training in grappling in 1995, it’s not a few months worth of training it’s that he has been training grappling for 15 years. Guys who make the transfer from one to the other can do so because they have been training in both long term.
How did Davis’ UFC career start out?
Getting completely outclassed by Joe Stevenson, cut to ribbons by Melvin Guillard, and summarily dismissed by Joe Silva until he rounded out his game.
If Manny & Floyd put in the kind of effort to learning a new craft that Davis did, then I have no doubt they would be successful. Both guys are world class athletes who have already demonstrated their mental fortitude to become a world class competitor in their chosen sport. But they would have to put in the work on their grappling or they would get smoked.
The notion of either guy just stepping into MMA and being successful with just their boxing skills is ludicrous. They would need to become well-rounded fighters, and at that point they would cease to be ‘boxers’ and instead would be ‘mixed martial artists’.
by Steve4192 on May 24, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well…there’/s the fact that Davis was a “successful” boxer against rather crap competition. Whereas Manny and Floyd are the best in the world. They’d absolutely need to spend time learning the game but I think they’d be more successful with their core skillset than Davis was.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 24, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
But where this all falls apart is that...
Manny and Floyd wouldn’t want to debut at “ISCF – Friday Night Fights” like Marcus Davis. They’d be starting out – and losing – at the top of the food chain.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I think you're setting the bar pretty low on "successful."
He’s not top 25 in MMA and he was never top 25 in boxing.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I think you're factually wrong.
I checked a random month when he wasn’t coming off a loss, and Marcus Davis was ranked number 13 in the BE Consensus rankings of February 2009. May have been higher at other times, I just googled one month and that was enough to show that your fact checking sucks.
And seriously, you don’t thin that winning 20 professional boxing matches with only one loss is successful? He was never a world-beater or contender but he certainly wasn’t a scrub. You’re setting the bar pretty damn high if you ask me… but you aren’t exactly big on facts so I figure you’ll only counter with opinion from here on out.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I said, and I can't believe I have to quote this:
“He’s not top 25 in MMA”
Which, if you check, you’ll find to be accurate. He’s not in the top 25. Right? Because one of the nice things about ranking lists is that they – in theory – get better over time as our information about the relative strengths and weaknesses of fighters changes over time. Marcus isn’t in the top 25 today for a number of reasons. Part of the reason may be that new people have joined the sport that are better than him. But in his case, it’s more likely that people have gotten a more accurate view of his overall skill set and that they’ve seen him face more competition which allows us to better judge his place in the rankings. And 13 was WAY TOO HIGH.
The point stands though: He’s not on anybody’s top 25 list, right?
(You do understand the present tense, yes?)
And:
“…he was never top 25 in boxing.”
Care to provide any evidence to the contrary?
Regardless: you’ll note that Marcus has more submission wins than KOs. What does that tell us?
Also, it’s cute the way you get so worked up over this and yet display problems with reading comprehension. :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
My mistake, you are technically correct (the best kind of correct) and either intellectually dishonest or flat stupid.
I guess Heath Herring, Jeremy Horn, Cro Cop (following the JDS loss, but not after the Perosh win), Matt Lindland, Ricco Rodriguez, Frank Shamrock, Jens Pulver, Kid Yamamoto, and Mach Sakurai are not successful MMA fighters since they are not CURRENTLY top 25. Idiot.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Those guys are at the end of their careers,
…and Marcus Davis is in what should be his prime – who exactly is being intellectually dishonest?
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
You are.
Davis is 36, losing his hand speed, and both his chin and power have faded. He’s spent the last 17 years competing at a professional level in combat sports and is clearly past his athletic prime. I’m not even bothering with ad hominems, you’re doing better than I ever could at making yourself look bad.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Oh, right. I'm the one bringing the ad hominem. Right.
Your second response said:
“your fact checking sucks.”
And:
“you aren’t exactly big on facts”
Your third response:
“Idiot.”
And that last one has:
“you’re doing better than I ever could at making yourself look bad.”
Is that what you call taking the high road?
My point stands: Marcus Davis is a terrible response to my original question: “Provide an example of a successful boxer in MMA.”
A) He was never a successful boxer for the purposes of a discussion about Floyd and Manny.
B) He’s best win in MMA was a split decision over Chris Lytle. (28-17-5)
C) He spent years training with MFS before going into MMA (10 years ago).
So you know, thanks for playing and all, but I hope you’ll be happy with a parting gift.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Just because Pacquiao hasn't trained in wrestling doesn't mean he would get dominated.
Some people are naturals. For example, BJ winning the BJJ world title in only 3 years or GSP having never wrested collegiately. You can’t really say anything until you see them in action. Who knows? Maybe Pacman has supernatural balance like BJ or just really good natural instinct.
by HappyLittleTreez on May 24, 2010 3:15 PM EDT reply actions
Oh, so you think that he's a natural wrestler?
What, other than fandom, would you base that on?
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What makes you think he isn't?
It’s all speculation…just like the entire article.
by HappyLittleTreez on May 24, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Believing that DOESN'T exist when there's no evidence to support it is called "REASON."
Believing that something DOES exist when there’s no evidence is called “FAITH.”
I’m going to stick with reason on this one – let me know how faith works out for you.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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I think he wasnt saying that it IS gana happen, just that you never know.
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
Ummm..ok? But until he has an MMA match neither of us have evidence, so what’s your point?
I used words like “Who knows” and “Maybe Pacman…”. I was just speculating that maybe he has some natural ability. Just like you and the article are speculating that he has no TD or wrestling ability. Really, I’m not sure what you’re arguing here.
by HappyLittleTreez on May 24, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, gotta call you out on this
At least in science, you don’t believe something doesn’t exist because there’s no evidence to support it. You have to be open to the possibility that it does exist, otherwise you’re just proving a negative, which is bad science.
^this
Also, it’s not merely a hypothetical possibility that some athletes exist who are intrinsically on a different level when it comes to their bodies in the form of balance, strength, etc. It’s an absolute fact. Happylittle is simply speculating that a Pacquaio (or Mayweather, or Floyd, or Cintron, or Emmanuelle Agustus, doesn’t matter who, just someone in the boxing world) could be one of these athletes, and if this is the case, they would be able to use their inherent abilities to pick up the mma game quickly and effectively. This is actually a pretty good argument that doesn’t rely on faith. Believing that the chubby kid up the street could pick the game up quickly is faith. Believing that a world-class athlete such as a top boxer, given adequate training, could do so is common sense.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
Shit, why don't you put down some money on Manny winning the Tour de France then?
I mean, he might be a natural!
Oh, you wouldn’t do that? Really? Me either.
The point is: you don’t make decisions based on ZERO evidence, and there’s exactly ZERO evidence that Manny or Floyd can wrestle. Suggesting that they MIGHT is still acting on faith.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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Ugh
The suggestion isn’t that they can wrestle, the suggestion is that, given their world class athletic abilities, it’s possible that they can pick it up extremely fast if they’re willing to put in the time. There’s plenty of evidence that a world-class boxer could pick up wrestling/jiu jtisu/muay thai, etc. in a much shorter amount of time than we may think, namely that they’re freakin WORLD CLASS BOXERS. Any jiu jitsu/grappling instructor will tell you that high level athletes pick up the sport extremely fast, regardless of their athletic base. Sure, it helps if it’s wrestling, but keen athletic ability and work ethic translate.
Using the Tour de France as an example is a classic straw-man argument. I’m not suggesting that a Mayweather or Pacquaio would be able to get on a bike and win the tour (although they’d likely pick up the sport fairly quickly, albeit not at a professional level). We’re talking about combat sports here, in which boxing is an important aspect. Sports such as cycling and boxing require a mastery of a specific discipline. By definition, MMA does not. A pacq or Mayweather wouldn’t need to win an Olympic gold in Greco in order to compete in mma. They’d simply have to learn solid takedown defense and a scrambling jiu jitsu game.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
“They’d simply have to learn solid takedown defense and a scrambling jiu jitsu game.”
Things that boxers in particular have had trouble learning in MMA.
Go back and read the original comment and tell me if you can support that statement – the statement being that maybe Pacman or Floyd are “naturals” at wrestling.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
Things that no elite level boxer has ever attempted to learn due to the revenue loss they’d suffer if they ever decided to attempt mma. We’re talking about a hypothetical situation in which either Floyd or Pacquiao were to train mma. There is a possibility that either of them would be naturals. Of course it isn’t a given, but given their status as elite level athletes, I’m merely arguing that they’re far more likely to take to wrestling naturally than a mid-level boxer or other martial art practitioner due to their work-ethic, gameness, hand eye coordination, balance, etcetcetc. They’d have to adapt and be willing to learn the game, but it’s certainly not that much of a stretch to believe that either of them could be naturals in either wrestling or jiu jitsu.
So yes, I do in fact support the original statement. It’s nearly impossible to argue against due to the hypothetical nature of the argument. One needs to accept that it’s a possibility that either of them could be naturals at wrestling. You can argue that the possibility is either slim or close to nil, but given their physical attributes, I think it’s a fairly decent possibility.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
In essence
in my earlier post, I was replying to your argument that it’s impossible and almost unscientific to believe that maybe Pacq or Floyd would be naturals at wrestling. Of course you skipped the entire first paragraph that focused on the original argument and instead replied to another statement of hypothetical possibility (that they’d have to pick up takedown defense and some jits for mma) that I brought up to expand the topic. You also conveniently ignored the straw man comment. Either way, I don’t think you’re going to change your opinion regarding this topic, even though your logic regarding hypothetical possibilities is pretty flawed.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
Sure if Pacquiao or Maywweather wanted to put two or three years into intense wrestling/MMA training they may be able to develop a basic takedown defense and a bit of ground fighting but honestly does anyone expect either of them to dedicate two or three years to intense MMA training? Just because they are world class athletes doesn’t mean they are going to pick up a completly foreign fighting skill in a couple of months worth of training and I don’t think anyone here would disagree that they could turn out to be competent MMA fighters if they did two or three years of dedicated MMA training. Does anyone actually believe that either of these two guys could develop a solid takedown defense and a scrambling jiu jitsu game in less than a couple of years worth of intensive training? Of course that’s not going to happen nor is it the point of this discussion of how they would fair in a MMA cage currently.
No, No, No.
You don’t give weight to something that might exist with no evidence.
I’m not saying that Manny isn’t the world’s greatest wrestler, I’m saying that we shouldn’t presume that he is because there’s no evidence that he is. Acting like he might be because you’re a fan of his boxing is acting on faith.
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If the best boxers out there in Pacquiao and Mayweather would not do well in MMA, and that is being said by Dana White, then what is he doing signing a past-his-prime boxer in James Toney (This is a rhetorical question)? I’ve said this before, but any sane MMA fighter would simply leg kick or take down a pure boxer.
then what is he doing signing a past-his-prime boxer in James Toney
Proving his point.
He has no intention of James Toney being the UFC for the long haul. He’s using Toney to prove that (formerly) elite boxers cannot compete in MMA unless they develop other skills. Toney will be shown the door after one or two losses.
Fedor or Overeem vs Klitchko plz!
Mauricio "Shogun" Rua: UFC LHW CHAMP! Justice is served, 2-0 against Machida!
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
I think MDS missed the point
Dana said they would get beaten in MMA, he didnt say they wouldnt stand a chance. Brock came in and in his second pro fight, lost, but he went on to win the belt.
I told you not to f*ck with me.
And after devoting himself to BJJ and MMA for literally years.
He’d put two years into MMA by the time he got the belt.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
MMA is like a decathlon.
Usain Bolt would win the sprints but come in last place in the pole vault, long jump, high jump, etc.
Pac would win a striking battle (maybe without kicks) but obviously get smashed in all other aspects of the sports.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com and MMAFighting.com, mma enthusiast
by ekc on May 24, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sprinters do well on the long jump
Back in high school, one of our long jump guys couldn’t make a meet, so we sent our best sprinter to try it, no practice at all, and that bastard set a district record.
There's a lot of layers to this...
- - Okay then. Georges St. Pierre would badly lose at super middleweight if he gave boxing against guys in the Super Six a go.
- These discussions are always so weird. As I told Luke earlier…it’s like debating if Albert Pujols would be good at cricket. It involves a bat and ball and the swings (depending on how it’s bowled) are fairly similar. But am I assuming that he is playing a high level cricket game right now? In a month? Has he been trained by a high level coach? Does he get 6 months of high level instruction? It’s just such an ambiguous statement. I could have said without a doubt that Lesnar, while competing in the WWE full time would likely not have had anything resembling the success then that he has had now in MMA, and I would have been right. Because I highly doubt that old wrestling technique and size would have done much for him if he didn’t go to a real camp and learn how to fight in the sport in question.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 24, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
I dunno...I'd think he would beat Arthur Abraham by DQ.
"It's fourth and fifteen and you're looking at a full-court press." - Lt. Frank Drebin, Police Squad
Odd story
At the US Open a few years ago, they took Andy Roddick, James Blake, and a few other professional tennis players out to Shea stadium for batting practice a few days before the tournament began. Most of them had played when they were kids, but none of them had played since before high school. The onlookers (including some of the Mets) were shocked when after a getting warmed up and comfortable at the plate, a few of the tennis players started hitting home runs. Granted, these were merely practice pitches and don’t resemble a honest to goodness MLB pitch. However, a typical person would never come close to hitting the ball out of the infield, let alone over the fence after a few minutes of practice.
The point is that a high level athlete is a high level athlete. The tennis players have honed their hand eye coordination since they were children, so translating those skills to hitting a baseball was feasible. Alternately, a good pro boxer has not only been honing their sense of timing and hand eye coordination, but also in some cases, their gameness or ability to flat out fight.
I agree that the discussion is weird, because ultimately what matters is the individual. These arguments seem to be a nostalgic attempt to bring back some of the mystique and aura of the earliest UFCs, when style vs. style actually meant something. There’s no such thing as a “true” stylist at the top or even mid-tiered levels of mma. Everybody has become a hybrid. Were a top professional boxer to cross-over into mma and have an mma training camp, they would no longer be pure boxers, but rather an mma fighter with a boxing base.
"The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world..."
A better question would be...
How would Floyd and Pac do in K-1? MMA is just to different for these guys, perhaps if they started training rigorously in mma principles for a couple of years they could be a threat to some of the lower level mma guys.
"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard
Weeellllllll.
Brock could prolly give Manny a run for his money.
But thats just me taking your argument to a ridiculous level.
your right though
UDDDDAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Η κόλαση δεν έχει μυστικά
E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!!!!!!!!
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Kid Nate you’re being a little bit disingenuous when you say pro boxers have historically failed in kickboxing. What you should have said is that completely shot pro boxers, unable to compete at top level in boxing, have tried kickboxing and admitedly flopped. Frans Botha and Ray Mercer were taking serious beatings in boxing before they ever fought a kickboxer. Nate, were you bullied by a boxer as a kid? I can’t understand your bias against the sport.
Mercer was lasting deep into fights against high level boxers
and was beaten with one strike within 20 seconds of round 1 against Bonjasky.
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-Randall Munroe
eeeeh…in 2004 he beat Shawn Robinson in 3 rounds (robinson was far from a high level boxer), in 2005 he went 10 rounds with Darrol Wilson who was 6-7 years past being a semi-relevant heavy, he also got KO’ed by Shannon Briggs who was experiencing a career resurrection at the time but was far from an amazing force.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 24, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
True, and that's fair,
but none of that says he was done as a combat athlete and explains the one-hitter-quitter that Bonjaski laid on him. He was a boxer who didn’t prepare for kickboxing, not a totally shot combat athlete.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Oh I agree...
I didn’t mean to suggest he was a turd. Just that I’d be iffy about saying he was hanging in there with “high level” guys
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 24, 2010 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
true story
That’s revisionist history saying Mercer was the bottom of the barrel when he fought Bojansky.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on May 24, 2010 4:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
lol
boxing is great, i’m a huge fan of the 70s and 80s era boxers. It’s a hugely effective element of an mma arsenal, it just doesn’t make for a great sole discipline in mma.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
manny n floyd would ko em
any mma fighter that traded punches with manny and money would get ktfo. MMA fighters know this so they are going to work on taking them down.
In order to counter this, manny and money would have to learn bjj and use it like shogun used it against machida- to stand up and beat the shit out of their opponent.
Checking kicks isnt hard to learn – you could go to a muy thai academy in thailand for 2 months and be proficient -
shitting boxing in mma?
when are you going to write an article on the lack of boxing skills in mma?
that is a pretty bottomless topic
frankly it’s far more interesting to talk about the rare occasions when someone shows good boxing technique in mma. Jabs and body blows are all too rare. As are combinations.
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MMA fighter vs Boxer tool kit
MMA fighters just have too many tools to beat boxers.
by snakecharmer1340 on May 24, 2010 4:12 PM EDT reply actions
This metaphor works a million ways
Do you want your general practitioner diagnosing your nagging cough or a highly specialized neurologist?
To quote the great Heinlein: “Specialization is for insects.”
The thing is that boxers are specialists in punching. They aren’t fighters in the same sense that MMA fighters are.
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by jemaleddin on May 24, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'd prefer a highly specialized ENT to diagonose my nagging cough...
over a ham’n’egger family doctor who decided to get into the lowest paying field in medicine.
This “boxers aren’t fighters” argument is vexing to the point of being offensive. MMA is not street fighting, it is a combat sport bound by a strictly enforced set of rules, just like boxing.
And if were going to lose a professional fight, I’d much rather lose it to a wrestler who would quickly take me down and tap me out, than to a professional boxer who would almost assuredly do irreversible brain damage.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on May 24, 2010 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
a) Good luck with that cough then.
My wife’s colleagues over at the Hopkins School of Public Health are TERRIBLE at that sort of thing. :-)
b) MMA is CLOSER to street fighting than boxing is, yes?
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Closer in what way?
Certainly there are far fewer holds barred in MMA than there are in boxing, but most of the street fights I’ve seen have essentially been fistfights. Which is to say, it is a really, really bad idea to pick a street fight with a good boxer.
I feel like I’m arguing a side of an issue that I don’t really support. I find MMA on the whole far more interesting and entertaining than boxing, at least now. If boxing resembled the sport that I grew up with, maybe that would be different, but in today’s world the MMA product is just far more compelling. I do not want to be in the position of arguing the virtues of boxing over MMA.
What I object to is how dismissive many MMA fans are to boxing. Boxers are, in my opinion, the best-conditioned athletes in the world. They possess a skill set that is directly applicable to MMA (they hit you, you fall down). And I believe that a great boxer could become a great MMA fighter in about the same time it takes a great wrestler to become a great MMA fighter.
In the near term, nobody will be able to prove that point, one way or another. The economic reality dictates that no elite boxer in his prime will make a serious transition to MMA. We can extrapolate from the experience of the Marcus Davis’ of the world, but even he’d tell you he wasn’t from the same planet as Manny/Floyd types.
As MMA gets bigger, and boxing gets smaller, and MMA purses start to challenge boxing purses, I look forward to seeing what a top boxer in his prime will be able to do with some solid MMA training. Until then we’ll just have to keep noodling it here, which I guess is fun in its own right.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on May 25, 2010 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Contrariwise
Most of the fights I’ve seen (gotten beaten up during) looked more like sloppy GnP until could stand up and start kicking.
And I’m not being dismissive of boxing – I’m being dismissive of how well pure boxing translates to MMA, which is a position I don’t think you’d disagree with. Any boxer who steps in the ring with an MMA fighter with the good sense to take the fight to the ground is going to lose.
Try to imagine Tyson Griffin vs. Floyd Mayweather, and I think you’ll see what I mean. :-)
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Well, you did say boxers aren't fighters
Which is pretty dismissive. I tried to imagine what my boxing coach would do to my poor brain if I said something like that to him.
As long as we’re making generalizations, I would suggest that boxers are more likely to come from rough backgrounds, and get into the sport by way of street fighting, than MMA fighters who, as a class, tend to come from more affluent backgrounds, and approach it from a purely athletic standpoint.
From a purely technical perspective, I agree that a pure wrestler would be in a better position than a boxer to survive an MMA fight without any additional training, but I firmly believe that an elite boxer with the proper training would be able to compete at the highest levels of MMA.
I also believe we’ll never know, because, as I mentioned above, it just doesn’t make any sense for an elite boxer to train in MMA.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I said:
“They aren’t fighters in the same sense that MMA fighters are.”
Not that they aren’t fighters. Do you disagree?
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I do disagree
As I said, I think a boxer has as much fighting spirit as any athlete on earth. Boxers are more likely to be bred and groomed in hard, dangerous circumstances than in affluent Midwestern college towns. While a well-rounded MMA fighter has a more complete skill set, I still might be inclined to take a boxer in the heat of a street fight, because they’re more likely to have been there before.
Boxers are certainly more specialized, but I think you take the argument too far when you suggest that an MMA athlete is more of a “fighter” than a boxer.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
What I object to is how dismissive many MMA fans are to boxing. Boxers are, in my opinion, the best-conditioned athletes in the world. They possess a skill set that is directly applicable to MMA (they hit you, you fall down). And I believe that a great boxer could become a great MMA fighter in about the same time it takes a great wrestler to become a great MMA fighter.
I don’t think people in this discussion are being dismissive on boxers they are just pointing out the realities of the differences in the sports. Yes a great boxer could become a great MMA fighter in the same way a great wrestler does and that way involves going through several years of intense training in multiple disiplines. Heck look at Brock Lesnar, yea he has become a very good MMA fighter but I think people tend to forget that he started MMA training in 2006. World class Wrestling or Jiu-Jitsu or Boxing as a base is fine but it takes years of cross training in multiple disiplines to make a competent MMA fighter.This was never a discussion about whether Mayweather or Pacquiao could or couldn’t train long term to become great MMA fighters it was about how they would do in a MMA fight now.
We can extrapolate from the experience of the Marcus Davis’ of the world,
Yes we can extrapolate from Marcus Davis, he’s been cross training multiple disiplines all his life and has been doing MMA training for a decade and a half. He’s not just some boxer who made the switch he’s a guy who has trained grappling since 1995.
Prior to boxing, Marcus did martial arts from the age of eight.4 In 1995, Davis, then based in Massachusetts, started grappling training with Joe Maffei. In 1997, he moved back to Bangor and opened up an MMA school, while running a bar. The doormen took classes at the school, one of whom was Tim Sylvia. After Tim joined Miletich Fighting Systems in 2000, Marcus quickly followed. More recently, he has trained with Mark Dellagrotte and his own team in Bangor, Team Sityodtong.5 He also frequently visits Jorge Gurgel’s main MMA academy in West Chester, Ohio.
Why would a wrestler tap you out? Would getting repeatedly punched in the head on the ground do more or less damage than getting punched standing up?
Boxing is a great sport but it is so very specific in what they train, punching at an opponent from the waist up and defending against an opponent punching at you from the waist up. This isn’t just about striking vs grappling it’s about about one highly focused specific form of punching to a specific area of the body vs striking anywhere with hands, elbows, knees and feet in any position standing or on the ground and grappling and submission martial arts all in combination. This discussion isn’t a knock on boxing it’s just the obvious fact that the two sports are very different in focus and scope. The vast majority of action in MMA standing and on the ground not only is illegal in boxing it just doesn’t exist at all in terms of what they train for. It’s not just about submission defense, how many boxers train to even be aware of kicks or knees or clinch fighting or takedowns or defending themselves from ground and pound? Their years of specialized training actually works against them when the fight goes outside of that specialization. There is nothing offensive about this discussion towards boxers it’s just pointing out that their highly focused specialization doesn’t prepare them for the more generalized and unfocused combat sport.
I’d prefer a highly specialized ENT to diagonose my nagging cough…
But would you go to a specialized ENT if you had a broken leg or a stomach virus? How about if you didn’t have a clue as to why you were sick or what was wrong with you? A ENT isn’t going to diagnose a general illness he’s going to see you after a regular doctor has diagnosed you and refered you to him. His specialized focus actually makes him less able to do general medical work because of his lack of experience in other areas. If your just sick a “ham’n’egger family doctor” will give you better care and have a greater chance of diagnosing your problem.
I love that quote.
I try to use it every time the boxing vs MMA debate comes up.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 24, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I think any boxer will always have that mercer/sylvia shot of winning the fight. They punch much harder than their mma counterparts. But it’s much more likely that the fight will end up like mercer/kimbo. (this is all assuming they are still full time boxers and fighting art jimmerson/ray mercer style)
By the time someone reaches the world class level at boxing, I think too much time will have passed for them to develop adequate skills in the other areas to be a top flight mma fighter, but if they concentrate on the clinch and some sprawl they could greatly increase their odds in a particular fight, and might be able to put a few wins together, but I don’t think they will dominate.
They punch much harder than their MMA counterparts is a very broad generalization.
Certainly some do, especially at the highest weights, but there are plenty of boxers who don’t have one shot stopping power. Their technique is certainly much better, but to simply say “they punch much harder” is sort of silly.
by Trysdor on May 24, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no it’s not. All they train is punching, and they are used to wearing bigger gloves, gloves which serve to protect the hand. Any pro boxer will punch harder than pro mma fighters in their weight class.
Did you watch that show where they measured Rampage
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CRAP - this is what I get for changing keyboards so often...
Did you watch that show where they measured Rampage’s punching power? He delivered over 1,800 pounds of force with an overhand right. That’s more than most EVERYBODY, boxers, fighters, what have you.
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Tell that to a Major League hitter.
A young Ken Griffey Jr. used to brag that he couldn’t bench press his weight and he hit 400+ foot home runs like they were pop flies. Excellent technique allows a boxer to hit much, much harder in a much, much shorter window.
While it is true that a guy like Koscheck can land a pretty devastating overhand right on those occasions in which his opponent is accommodating enough to wait patiently while it arrives, a guy like Manny Pacquiao can knock you out with either hand from any position on the mat.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
We're just talking power.
Hand eye coordination and speed are different story. That’s what helped Griffey. Bat speed and hand eye is huge. But an MMA hook is pretty similar to a boxing hook. What I’m saying is that if two people of equal power were to throw a hook. The boxer wouldn’t be leaps and bounds more powerful than the MMA fighter’s hook.
Just like you can train takedowns for years and not catch up with an elite wrestler, you can train lead hooks for years and never catch up with an elite pro boxer.
A good punch is no different than a good baseball swing. The economy of movement, hand speed and accuracy all play a huge role in how effective the punch is. Anyone can throw a powerful left hook, but only very special people can throw it with virtually no wind up, from any angle, accurately and with knockout power.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Agreed. Throwing a punch against a bag is one thing. Setting the punch up, positioning yourself properly, executing at the exact moment without hesitation, are another.
Specialists can go much deeper and approach a level of mastery that generalists, by their very definition, cannot. On the flip side, generalists can approach a problem with a wider perspective and more diverse skill set.
"You go to hell! You go to hell and you DIE!!"
Exactly. And I’m not arguing boxing over MMA. I train in boxing, but I watch a lot more MMA than I do boxing. I’m just saying that people are pretty quick to dismiss the skill sets of some of the best athletes on earth. Floyd Mayweather is a once-in-a-generation type athlete. His vision, speed, power and boxing IQ is just an insane combination. If he applied himself I think he could be a beast in MMA.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Good to know I’m not the only MMA fan who trains boxing! You box with your hips, your legs, your footwork, all coordinated movements coupled with a highly stressful situation.
I think that the athletic potential and ability of someone like Mayweather cannot be denied. Imagine if he grew up watching MMA, training martial arts, wrestling, jits, AND boxing!
"You go to hell! You go to hell and you DIE!!"
“Anyone can throw a powerful left hook, but only very special people can throw it with virtually no wind up, from any angle, accurately and with knockout power.”
And that list doesn’t include ALL boxers. Not every boxer has the ability to knock somebody out in that way – many rely on wearing people down as opposed to getting it done with one punch.
What Phildo said was:
“Any pro boxer will punch harder than pro mma fighters in their weight class.”
And that just isn’t true. Trying to talk about KOs is missing the point – he (and I) was talking about force, not technique.
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Any position on the mat?
Like, say, off his back? :-)
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
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If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
b/c rampage uses good boxing technique
see cyril vs rampage kickboxing match – rampage knocked him out with punches – he didnt throw one kick (in 1st fight -he threw like 6 knees in the 2nd fight) and he did a shitty job of checking kicks too – but his boxing skills prevailed – not many (if any) mma fighters have comparable boxing skills to rampage
seriously though
this is like some scared white republican chastising that new fangled rap music…..in 1998
dude, we get that old wrinkled mugwumps are ascared of hip hop
and we get that one dimensional boxers would get tooled in mma
everyones favorite whipping boy
Isn't this obvious....
If the assumption is that a top ranked boxer was stepping in without substantial training in other aspects of mma to fight a comparably ranked mma athlete, they would lose. I.e. a pure boxer has a low probability of beating an mma fighter.
Consider even how often do boxers end up in a clinch? Often. What happens in those circumstances? The fighters are separated. What would happen to them if they end up in such a clinch in an mma match? The pure boxer would be out of their element, and not separated from their oppionent, giving a huge advantage to the mma fighter. The fight can go to the cage, the mat and all the aspects of fighting that a boxer has no training in become more important than punching.
If the question is, can a pure boxer learn the mma game, train in it and become successful, then of course the answer is yes they can. Mayweather and Manny are great athletes with a basis in one aspect of combat sports that they can use as a foundation.
Why is this even a debate.
by 1Mandos1 on May 24, 2010 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Jose Aldo vs. Manny Pacquiao
I have Aldo winning by brutal kicks.
Damn, this is rare
a BE article that isn’t trying to stir up drama like the Hills and actually is using rational arguments.
by pickleofguatemala on May 24, 2010 5:35 PM EDT reply actions
if that happens....
this site has slipped past the point of no return into a fascist dictatorship
everyones favorite whipping boy
If you have such a problem with BE, please just leave.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 24, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
This guy is a fucking moron.
BE doesn’t have the same dehumanization and destruction of individuality required for fascism, and it doesn’t rest solely on one dictator. There’s a chief in Luke Thomas, but several powerful individuals with banning/warning ability. BE is best described as a tyrannical oligarchy.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I look at it like a benevolent dictatorship. The guys at the top do have (largely) unlimited power, but they use it to our benefit (great article series, purging the stupid, etc)
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 24, 2010 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions
so maybe im a few credits shy of my poli sci degree
but the prospect of banning someone for pointing out BE’s tendency towards sensential headlines is goonish at best.
telling someone to leave because of a dissenting opinion makes you sound like larry the cable guy and no one should want that
my issue isn’t with BE in general, i like leland rolling’s contributions and i have no issue with Tabuena or Fagan’s weekly pieces, so suggesting i stop coming to the site just makes you sound silly and reactionary
everyones favorite whipping boy
How do I sound like Larry the Cable Guy? I use proper grammar.
I don’t care if you disagree with BE’s staff. Healthy disagreement is always good – I don’t even agree with all their decisions. But I don’t make passive-aggressive asides, sniping at them from the comments. Handle your business with them via email. If they ignore, just keep off the site. You don’t seem to enjoy it much. Saying you like Leland, Anton, and Fagan’s pieces is the first time I can think of that you openly complement the site. I don’t get why you would subject yourself to here if it makes you that upset, nor why you would share your spite with those of us who are content.
Maybe I’m wrong, though, and you do like it here, but I can’t figure out why you would be so bilious in that case…
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 25, 2010 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, Lesnar trained in MMA for over a year before his debut. I think the better question is how well could Pacquiao do in MMA if he had 9 months worth of training first and was fed a couple softball opponents before going into the deep end that is the WEC Bantamweight division (even Lesnar’s first fight was against a glorified can).
Horrible Comparison
MDS comparison of Brock Lesnar coming over from wrestling to that of boxers making the transition is probably the poorest example he could have come up with seeing as Lesnar is a physical anomaly who you may recall served as a curtain for the most of the time during his championship bout with Randy Couture seeing as he stood at almost DOUBLE the size of the former heavyweight champ.
Coming into MMA as a bantam/featherweight as Pacquiao and/or Mayweather would puts them in a totally different class of fighters where the max size difference between opponents is 10 pounds (as opposed to a potential 60lb differential at heavyweight) and as such neither Pacquiao/Mayweather would be able to waltz into MMA and physically dominate an opponent in anywhere near the fashion of a brute like Lesnar.
The debate about boxers being able to successfully crossover to MMA really does not come down to athleticism, size, or speed, but rather the boxers ability to handle the clinch, the cage, the takedown, guard, etc. – all the facets of the MMA game that make it differ from the boxing game. Boxers are concerned only about the head shoulders and hands when facing a traditional opponent, but stepping inside the cage means those concerns increase exponentially. MMA is chess, not checkers and thats really what it all boils down to…
"Every day gets better for me, you know what I'm saying? If anyone has a chance to beat me, it was yesterday..." - Kevin Ferguson
by bloodsportmmadotcom on May 24, 2010 6:23 PM EDT reply actions
Michael David Smith said it perfectly
" Pacquiao is such a fast and powerful puncher that I would give him a real chance of knocking Cruz out in an MMA fight."
The best boxer in the world basically has a puncher’s chance. We already knew that… but thanks for clarifying.
Boxers who I want to cross-over are Hatton and Cintron.
Kickboxing background, and wrestling background respectively.
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