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Rule Change?

This article is in response to the ongoing discussion on wrestling in mma.  The opening is just some quick thoughts, feel free to skip to the halfway point and just read my proposal.

I will admit to not having any mma experience besides being a fan.  I did wrestle for three years in high school (for one year I deluded myself into thinking I actually had any potential with basketball), and have a few insights into wrestling but I won't claim to be an expert.  This is just my two cents.

Quick 101: The amateur wrestling background most American fighters build off is entirely based on positional control.  In amateur wrestling gaining position isn't the means to an end, it is the only goal.  In addition amateur wrestling is based on trying to pin you opponent/staying off your own back, making much of the ground technique used in amateur wrestling incompatible with mma.  That's why a number of fighters with wrestling backgrounds are able to take opponents down and win scrambles, but can't readily pass opponent's guards or mount a ton of effective offense.  While this obviously changes with further training fighters with 8+ years experience in only one discipline will most likely continue to be strongest in this one field for some time. 

Working from top position is a balancing act, the more aggressively fighters go after submissions/strikes/try to improve their position, the more they open themselves up to being caught in a submission/allowing their opponent to escape to their feet/ being reversed or swept.  I feel like the term lay-and-pray is thrown about too loosely.  There are a number of fighters (Fitch being the poster-boy) who will continue to work at mounting offence from the top position, but put safely maintaining their position at a higher priority than inflicting damage on their opponent.  Fighters who are conservative in the balancing act of mounting offence vs. maintaining control are numerous, and different from lay-and-pray action where the only real goal is maintaining position.  It's comparable to the way a number of judge's decisions will fall into the spectrum of questionable to bad, but few are really robberies.

Finally, I have no problem admitting I find a lot of prolonged positional battles boring.  While I loved wrestling, a lot of times I was bored senseless when I had to watch others wrestle.  More active ground struggles are great, but I feel like there's a segment of hardcore mma fans out there who won't admit that they could possibly be bored by ground action, just like there are a number art snobs who won't admit that there's some modern art out there which is just plain ridiculous.  While I understand and appreciate the push from mma fans to maintain the "purity" of the sport, they are putting the sport on a pedestal that costs the sport a number of casual fans.  All the major sports leagues in America today adopted rules that radically changed the way their sports were played, and continue to tweak rules year by year.  I don't think some small concessions are completely out of the question, but I also wouldn't the evolution of mma dominated more by rule changes than fighter progressions.

 

My proposal: Once a fighter achieves top control (could be defined closely to the terms used in amateur wrestling), a clock is started by a referee outside the ring.  If their opponent is able to escape/reverse positions then the clock is reset.  At any point should the fighter in top position gain a full mount/crucifix mount/back control the clock is stopped, but not reset.  Should the fighter move out of either position but maintain top control then the clock is restarted.  If the clock reaches two minutes, then a horn is sounded and the in-ring referee stands both fighters back up.  The in-ring ref is still allowed to stand fighters up if he determines that action is completely stalled.

 

I think this is a fair compromise, it encourages action without forcing it.  The presence of such a clock would hopefully encourage fighters to be more active from top, either looking for subs, improving to a dominant position, or throwing meaningful strikes.  A more active top position would in turn allow for more activity from bottom other than just looking not to give obvious openings.  Should a fighter on bottom be close to the two minute horn there is the possibility they could try just to stall until the horn, but I'm sure laying on bottom and just absorbing damage until a standup won't look great to judges.

It also isn't a rule that would radically change the sport.  In a lot of fights it probably wouldn't come into play, fighter with reasonable skill from bottom to not be continuously kept down for that long.  It also wouldn't take position control wrestling off the table, should they choose to fighters like Fitch could keep the same game plan with the understanding they may have to work for 1-2 more takedowns a round at most.  Again, it wouldn't change the sport so much as nudge fighters toward more action on top.

I know the prospect of putting another part of the fight into ref's hands isn't what many want.  This rule hopefully would take pressure off in-ring ref's to make the subjective call of when action on the ground is stalled, and allow for a more objective ruling from an official outside the ring.  This would help reduce the discrepancy between ref's, and limit the controversy caused by different organizations trying to pressure ref's or fighters spend less time on the ground.

Thoughts?

Poll
Would you be in favor of a rule change similar to these.
NO, I'm completely fine with how current rules are stated and enforced now
73 votes
NO, I'm fine with how the rules are currently stated but would like to see more uniform enforcement
45 votes
NO, but I'd like to see some rules changes for a more objective rather than subjective system for dealing with stalled positions
19 votes
NO, but I'd like to see rule changes more agressively dealing with stalled positions
30 votes
Yes, I'd be for rule changes similar to those stated
22 votes

189 votes | Poll has closed

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 33 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I appreciate the time and effort to analyze and write your post, Balrog, but this comment here just about sums it up.

www.tapology.com | twitter @tapology

by GregS123 on May 22, 2010 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, I think it's a horrible idea all the way around.

I have a problem with any rule change that can change the competitive balance in MMA. No matter how much of a problem people think wrestling top control can be to a match, it is nothing compared to how boring fights would be if BJJ guys neutralized top control by stalling out to get resets.

There was a while where BJJ ruled the ground. These days wrestlers have enough BJJ behind them to neutralize much of the submission danger from the bottom. There will be a point where BJJ guys will take position control seriously enough to train wrestling significantly.

The rules that are in place now are mainly because of safety. Not much consideration was taken into making fights more exciting. If rules are changed to make fights exciting, it will start to resemble K1 or boxing.

MMA is still evolving, things will balance themselves out as fighters learn what they need to do to win. If we change rules to make things more entertaining, then we’ll get further and further away from what MMA is supposed to be.

by Doc Martin 28 on May 23, 2010 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

The rules gotta stay simple, otherwise the fight suffers, and the art suffers. I never really had a problem with a ref giving yellow cards for blatent defensive stalling, but even that opens up a new way for Mirg or Mazz to royally fuck up a fight.

by judonerd on May 25, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Awful idea, last thing I would ever want to see in MMA.

by RagingNoodles on May 22, 2010 1:13 PM EDT reply actions  

If this rule was put into effect I would wager that the results would be the opposite of what you were attempting to achieve. Instead of trying to escape, fighters on the bottom would stall, knowing the top fighter wouldn’t have time to set them up for a submission. And as time ran down, fighters on top would’t look to advance position, choosing instead to conserve energy, knowing their efforts would most likely be wasted with the sound of the horn.
Personally I would be against such a rule change since it would take us further away from what draws me to the sport: the realistic simulation of combat. Of course, if I had my way, I would do away with Fight, KO, and Sub of the Night bonuses, so take my opinion for what it’s worth.

by John Nash on May 22, 2010 1:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

the idea has some logic

but In practice I don’t think it would help that much. I think the round breaks and ref’s discretion give pretty much all the same benefits without the hazards described above.

If the takedown happens after the 3 minute mark of any round, the clock is a non-factor.
If you figure in a little scramble time, it still takes only 2 takedowns to eat up a whole round.
But a shorter clock (say 1 minute) would encourage the guy on bottom to lock up the guard and stall for a standup.

The real solution is for everyone to learn some decent wrestling, just like everyone has to learn at least decent jiu jitsu.

I consider myself a softcore fan.

by Thor77 on May 22, 2010 3:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, this was just an idea I had today so I thought I’d throw it out. After seeing a number of bewildering stand-ups/refusals to get involved on the part of refs, I was trying to noodle out a way to have a more objective rule for stand-ups that hopefully might encourage activity on the ground.

It seems like such a delicate balance for any rules along these lines, like you said it would mean a difference of one takedown a round in the most extreme situations, but not come into effect the majority of matches. At the same time I’m sure a lot of people would already hate any change towards this effect and would hate any stronger measures.

There’s a grey area in there where the trouble lies. Decent wrestling and jiu-jitsu go a long ways but only exceptional wrestlers are never taken down and only those really strong at bjj can force action against a fighter with great ground skills who is focused more on maintaining their position than mounting offense. At that point the fighter is pretty much relying on the ref to know when a fighter is actually working vs. throwing a tolkein strike every so often. If there was a way to lessen the impact of this grey area I would be for it but I also understand people wanting to leave well enough alone.

by Balrog on May 22, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s what happens when you’re distracted by pregameing. Coincidentally I had been drinking not tokin’.

by Balrog on May 23, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

A rule like this might push me to stop watching MMA. As boring as LNP fights may be, they make up a small percentage of fights. This rule would destroy MMA.

by cmsove on May 22, 2010 4:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Sorry, but I decided to change the poll

Not because it was so lopsided (vast majority against), but because almost no one was really specyfiying the specifics of their opinion.

by Balrog on May 22, 2010 4:28 PM EDT reply actions  

and wow, “specifying the specifics” is a dumb way to put it.

by Balrog on May 22, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well count this as a vote for No #2

Seeing as how it will not allow me to vote again and you eliminated my vote.

by capital L on May 22, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well the poll is completely F'd

After reading everyone posts I realized there should have been even more options,

-Fight rules should remain the same but changes/clarification should be made to judges’ scoring
-No changes should be made to rules regarding stalled positions but leg strikes to downed opponents (knees, stomps, or soccer kicks) should be made legal

also
-Stand-ups are already interfering too much and should be removed altogether
-BROCKLESNARRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rather than change things even more I’ll just leave it the way it is, if anyone really feels the need to have their opinion known they can just post in comments or elsewhere on BE.

by Balrog on May 23, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bottom line, wrestling is a martal art, if you can’t hang go kickbox for K-1.

Pain don't hurt...

by RolloTomasi on May 22, 2010 8:38 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

I agree with the idea but I dont know about the 2min clock. Ultimately the goal of any rules change is to encourage activity thats bring about the end of the fight. I dont think a 2min clock or even a 1min clock alone would do that. As some have stated a 2min clock is too long. Possibly 1 or 2 max takedowns per round and the round is over and activity can be at a minimum. With a 1min clock, it would create a situation where the fighter on the bottom has an incentive to be completely defensive. If I am a striker, why risk having my guard passed looking to escape or attempt a submission when in 45secs the ref will stand the fight up. The striker on the bottom would just lock on the body triangle and squeeze tight.

There appears to be a lot of opposition to my ideal which is simply to instate many small rules that discourage winning by decision and encourage fighters to finish the fight. Things could be implemented such as:
- More 10-10 rounds leaving more fights as draws
- Increased payouts to fighters who win via t(KO) or submission
- Less scoring weight on takedowns and positional control
- Faster stand ups when in full guard and demonstrated low activity has already taken place in the fight. (ie. give a fighter 2mins in the first round. If inactive, give them 30 seconds to throw heavy strikes or pass guard on subsquent occasions)
- etc etc

by GeeDub on May 23, 2010 6:26 AM EDT reply actions  

I’ve seen refs do the thing you suggested in having less tolerance for standstills as the fight goes on.

I think you’re on the right track. The biggest problem I have with the “wrestling to a decision” style is that it doesn’t resemble a “fight” enough to me. I know that most real-world fights are broken up before anyone really gets clocked, but, for example, I never got the sense that Paul Daley got beat up.

Not that I have a solution, but I don’t think fights should end with one guy having been safe and the other guy being frustrated but not hurt.

What would be the problem with having more rounds in most fights? There would definitely be more stoppages, which even the most conservative wrestler could achieve given enough time.

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 23, 2010 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

More time

I agree in principal with the wrestling to decision style, but can you imagine seeing more rounds of Daley Kos, shoot me now and at least Kos was going for the finish. Talk about bad for TV too?

by SES 84 on May 24, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Knees Knees Knees...

I don’t like this idea at all. Would make for a very unnatural feel to fights. Allowing knees to the head of a downed opponent, while disallowing knees to the head while an opponent has his head actually in contact with the mat. Now that’s a rule change I want to see.

Anonymity breeds contempt.

by Michael Warren on May 23, 2010 9:13 AM EDT reply actions  

I agree

The less offense you allow on the ground the more the fight goes there.
Look at how bad the GNP is in strikeforce without elbows? Also it allows fighters to endlessly shoot for a single when otherwise they could be kneed or dare I even say kicked in the head.

by SES 84 on May 24, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Soccer kicks and Stomps, that should be the only rule change, allow it

"I dont believe in an eye for an eye, I believe in two eyes for an eye" – Bas Rutten

by cwpeterson on May 23, 2010 9:57 AM EDT reply actions  

that would actually help. Might be something people don’t want to see; but there is something wrong about the idea that a wrestler could essentially baby crawl toward an opponents legs with little fear of getting hit. If it was a real fight (which MMA is supposed to be the closest thing to I feel) a wrestler would be badly destroyed in many of the positions they attempt in MMA.

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"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali

by JeremyShane on May 23, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have never ever seen this from a wrestler

I could be wrong, but I can’t say I’ve heard of wrestlers using that as a tactic. I’ve seen the butt scooting from a BJJ guy, but never from a wrestling guy. If a guy is in the process of taking a shot a knee is not illegal, that pretty much takes any argument that wrestlers take advantage of this rule away.

by Doc Martin 28 on May 23, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve seen wrestlers take positions that if soccer kicks or knees to the head or legal they would never attempt. I have seen a few things borderline to crawling after an opponent once in a blue moon, but yea, I was being a bit ornery with making it sound like the crawl around after someone like a baby crawls.

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"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali

by JeremyShane on May 23, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Munoz Grove

He wasn’t baby crawling, but he was holding on to a leg for dear life, a knee or kick to the head would radically punish sloppy or ineffective shots and more accurately reflect real fighting.

I’m wondering if we could allow these sorts of things in the scramble, but not when a fighter is very prone.

by SES 84 on May 24, 2010 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

maybe get rid of the having one limb in contact with the ground (hands or knees) but continue to keep it illegal if you are prone on your back?

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"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali

by JeremyShane on May 24, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah this could stop a few takedowns and be a more realistic representation of a fight. We might also allow Knee Strikes to the head of a prone opponent which would help wrestlers finish.

I guess both of these could look pretty brutal though. I can’t speak to home much more medically dangerous they are then what we have currently, but that would definitely be a concern.

by SES 84 on May 25, 2010 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

No. I think they need to continue as is to a point. Let the ref decide when to break them. They just need some better training there.

I also still think that if they changed the weight of points given for certain things in MMA that deal with wrestling then it would encourage more fighting and less controlling. I still say the control aspect on the ground should be no more important than controlling your opponent on the feet with footwork, movement and jabs. A fighter should not get pummeled for half the round and then get a couple takedowns and lay on the guy for the last minute and win the round due to points.

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"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali

by JeremyShane on May 23, 2010 10:20 AM EDT reply actions  

Hey guys

I have been lurking around here for some time but this is my first post.

My take is this would be bad for the sport, however if you are looking into a rule change to make the ground game more appealing to the average fan who is not into wrestling or BJJ, than why not do the exact oppisite of ehat you mention. Think about it for a minute, in College wrestling you have a clock that counts riding time, and if you have accumulated enough of it at the end of the match you get an extra point.

By doing something like this in the UFC it would make the top guy work hard to keep control of the bottom guy, and the bottom guy would have to work his ass of to get up quickly, or to take top position to cancel out the other fighters riding time.

I am fine with the sport the way it is, I have wrestled most of my life, and I coach high schoo, junior high, and my sons AAU / USAW team, My son also started training in MMA a couple of months ago, and I never miss a practice there. So I appreicate the art form that is the ground game, just adding another point of view to speed up the action for the more casual fan.

by bullrider73 on May 25, 2010 11:22 AM EDT reply actions  

thats actually a really interesting point.. everyone complains about wrestling.. why not make the rule so you either must learn it to avoid the points.. or you lose on points not a by arbitrary decision. I would worry a little bit that mma with a similar system might be biased having fighters train wrestling so much they have skillsets similar to hammerhouse.

i think like you said tho.. leave like it is.

by waldog on May 26, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Meh, I really couldn’t get 100% behind that just on the basis that in bjj pulling guard is not considered to put you at a disadvantage. Judges will rarely score it this way- if they see someone maintain top control for the majority of the round they will most probably give the round to the guy on top even if the guy working from guard is much more active in trying to end the match.

That’s kinda the crux of the problem, a guy clinging to top control will usually be given a judge’s decision while anyone clinging to guard from bottom to avoid damage will almost always have the round scored against them. Further incentivizing top control really wouldn’t help the situation any more.

by Balrog on May 27, 2010 9:06 PM EDT reply actions  

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