The Fans Must Be Crazy: A Look at the Career of Tim Sylvia
by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 6:13 PM EDT
in MMA History
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After reading through the thoughts of many MMA fans over the course of the last few days I've come to the sad realization that fans will probably never really respect Tim Sylvia the way they should.
A lot of fans who weren't following the sport closely back in 2002 probably don't realize just how big of a signing it was when the UFC landed Tim Sylvia. The 6'8" Sylvia came into the promotion with a 13-0 record, with those wins coming in some of the bigger "regional" promotions like Superbrawl and Extreme Challenge. Sylvia also was riding high after winning the Superbrawl 24 tournament by stopping Boyd Ballard, Jason Lambert and Mike Whitehead. When he was signed to the UFC it was one of the biggest signings the promotion had in quite some time and was expected to help pick up what was then a lackluster heavyweight division.
Upon his arrival Sylvia met "Cabbage" Correira at UFC 39. After surviving an early onslaught from the big Hawaiian, Sylvia absolutely brutalized him en route to a second round stoppage. While many may be quick to dismiss a win over Correira as meaningless, this was during a period where Cabbage had won 7 straight coming in and would win 6 in a row afterward. Many of those wins were legitimate and against guys like Aaron Brink, Kevin Jordan, Travis Wiuff, Jason Lambert, Joe Riggs, Justin Eilers, and Sean Alvarez.
Sylvia would get a UFC title shot against Ricco Rodriguez, a guy who the UFC wanted to be a "poster boy" as he had a lot of charisma and some crossover appeal with the Latino market that the promotion wanted to tap into at the time. Sylvia blasted out Rodriguez in just over three minutes to improve to 15-0 and become UFC champion. Already Sylvia was not a well liked fighter among some of the MMA base off nothing more than being awkward and coming from a camp in Miletich Fighting Systems that was not the most loved by MMA's most hardcore followers.
The UFC then matched Sylvia up with Gan McGee in a "battle of the giants." McGee was 11-1 with his lone loss coming at the hands of Josh Barnett. Sylvia did away with the taller McGee in under two minutes. Unfortunately, Sylvia would test positive for a steroid after the fight and was suspended. Sylvia admitted what he did (one of the very few fighters who tested positive you can say this about) and voluntarily gave up his title. I would never suggest that he should be forgiven for using, but he handled it with as much class as one can. It also was one of the first times that MMA fans really got to see how desperate Sylvia was to be liked by the fans. He was constantly the target of mocking for his soft build despite being a wrecking machine and seemed to want to have a much better "look" in hopes that he would be more accepted.
He returned at UFC 48 in an attempt to win back "his belt" and got caught in an armbar by rising superstar Frank Mir. Mir didn't have the elbow joint locked and as he torqued his hips against Sylvia's forearm the radius bone broke. Herb Dean stopped the fight despite Sylvia's desire to continue on. After time off to heal Sylvia quickly beat fellow giant Wes Sims and got another shot at a title, this time the UFC interim heavyweight title (due to Mir's recent motorcycle crash) against Andrei Arlovski. Arlovski quickly dropped Tim and locked in a leg lock that forced a submission.
Rather than crumble under the weight of a tarnished reputation and losing two of three, Sylvia came back with a win over Mike Block, a highlight reel KO of the very tough Tra Telligman, a decision win while ill over Assuerio Silva, and was given a shot to avenge his loss to Arlovski. Sylvia would come back from early trouble in the fight to TKO Andrei and win his second UFC heavyweight championship. This was probably the moment that Sylvia's career hit it's peak. Sylvia would go on to defend his title in a rubber match with Arlovski in what will always be remembered as one of the most boring heavyweight title fights ever and then won a decision over Jeff Monson.
Then Sylvia would end up on the losing end of one of the most historic fights in the history of the sport as Randy Couture returned to the UFC with a stunning decision victory over Tim. Despite being the much bigger man it was Randy who landed an early punch which put Sylvia down and from that point on Couture was able to control the fight.
Sylvia would rebound with a rather unspectacular win over Brandon Vera before meeting MMA legend Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira in what was once considered an MMA dream match. Nogueira would lock in a guillotine choke in the third round. What most don't remember (or rather choose not to remember) about the fight was Sylvia controlling the first two rounds and dominating the first round. BE actually had that fight scored 20-17 for Sylvia heading into the third before some classic Nogueira drama happened.
Following the loss Sylvia went on to sign with Affliction and get blitzed by Fedor Emelianenko in well under a minute. Then a boxing match with Ray Mercer in New Jersey became an MMA match in Alabama where Mercer caught a 310 pound Sylvia with a power punch to get a win in under 10 seconds.
Obviously Sylvia, who will enter the Moosin event tonight at over 300 pounds again, is not the level of fighter that he once was. But it only takes one look at his career to see a guy who, while never loved by the fans, has only ever lost to the absolute top of the division (and Ray Mercer). Losses to Arlovski, Mir, Fedor and Nogueira are nothing to be ashamed of. Honestly, if Tim Sylva were to retire today he is without a doubt one of the top 15 heavyweights in the history of the sport. One could even make a very valid case to rank him at the bottom end of the top 10.
Many of his wins don't look as good now if you don't look at them in the context of when they happened. The wins over McGee, Cabbage, Arlovski (twice), Rodriguez, etc. were all very meaningful and legitimate wins at the time when they happened.
One last thing: the boring tag is completely unfair given that in my mind he has only been in four boring fights in his career. The Assuerio fight (where Sylvia was ill), the third Arlovski fight (where both men were hesitant), the Vera fight and the Monson bout. In other fights during his career he has been an absolute wrecking machine or involved in incredibly dramatic moments. It's a shame that someone who worked so hard and cared so much about fan approval for the majority of his career has been reduced to a punchline by the fans, not that Tim and his own declining work ethic is helping his case. But the biggest shame is that most fans are all too happy to ignore the realities of a great heavyweight career.
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well done, Timmy was the man several years ago,
That Cabbage fight Tim looked probably the best he ever would.(physique wise) And that Telligman KO is still a favorite to watch. He did retire Tra with that one.
by doonerthesooner on May 21, 2010 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Not to jump on some kind of emerging bandwagon, but....
…I’ve always been a fan of Tim and always will be despite what happens in his career. I myself, despite being pretty athletic, have never had 6 pack abs. No matter what I do, I always seem to have a jiggle around my mid-section. I’m not fat. I spent 4 years in the Marines and did 2 tours in Iraq (in the infantry) and I still jiggled a little bit. In his peak form, Sylvia was one of the guys who showed that you don’t need to look like a bodybuilder to crush people. Here’s to hope for fat, jiggly guys (like me) everywhere.
"If I wanted to spend a half hour between two hairy legs I'd go to your mother's house." -Don Frye
u must be a fan of roy nelson then
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I don’t think so many people are dogging on Tim about his weight then. Its his weight now. He’s over 300 lbs and clearly isn’t training to bring himself back to the form he was at in him prime. More people are pointing to the fact that Tim simply just doesn’t seem to be taking his career as a fighter seriously.
This blog doesn't change my thoughts on Timmeh...
Those wins were when the UFC didn’t have a HW division. I don’t think any of those victories were against legit competition, even at the time. He seems like a nice guy though. Just my meager opinion.
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by punchdrank on May 21, 2010 5:10 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
He beat Rico and AA when they were killers.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. How quickly we forget…
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by Kaleb Kelchner on May 21, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You can make a strong argument that Arlovski might not have ever been great. When you look at his UFC competition, he fought guys that were nowhere near the level of most of the PRIDE heavyweights.
At the time he looked like a killer, but you can make that case. He never ran into the elite 50% of competition in the division.
Add in the fact that both Sylvia and Arlovski were torched by Fedor (and in Sylvia’s case Nog), and you can see where the thought comes that while yes, both accomplished meaningful things, hindsight being twenty twenty they weren’t that great.
Kind of like how everyone put Aoki super high until he was exposed. It generally happens whenever someone is in a rival company and ruling the roost.
this bullshit about Aoki
being “exposed” by Melendez is really pissing me off.
1) Aoki has a long standing pattern of losing fights to good ground and pound guys — Mach Sakurai absolutely humiliated him at DREAM.8. His loss to Hansen at DREAM.5 was far more devastating than anything Melendez did to him.
2) Melendez is for all intents and purposes a Japanese fighter. Other than beating Clay Guida in 2006, and his series with Josh Thomson, Melendez’ biggest fights have all been in Japan or against Japanese opponents — Kawajiri, Ishida, et al.
3) Nothing that happened against Melendez takes away Aoki’s very impressive wins against JZ Calvacante, Eddie Alvarez, his two wins over Hansen, Shaolin, Uno, Kikuchi, etc.
It was always utterly obvious that Aoki was one dimensional. The thing is he’s very dangerous with that one dimension. He very nearly subbed Melendez in the first round. He lost a tough fight to a tough opponent. Period.
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by Kid Nate on May 21, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Yeah the exposed thing…I mean…I think it was obvious that Aoki was NOT the favorite going into that fight, and the fight panned out just as I expected.
Doesn’t make Aoki less of a fighter.
"The true science of martial arts means practicing them in such a way that they will be useful at any time, and to teach them in such a way that they will be useful in all things." - Miyamoto Musashi
by Kaleb Kelchner on May 21, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it finally exposed Aoki as being over ranked in the lightweight division as the #2 guy not that it exposed him for being one dimensional.
by YoungGun on May 21, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I must thank you for this
MMA fans are too damn fickle. The “what have you done for me lately” mentality is tiring. He’ll sub out a tough opponent in his next fight and people will go right back to clamoring for Aoki/BJ.
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by Erich Vowell on May 21, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
regarding #2
I don’t think he is “for all intents and purposes a Japanese fighter” just because much of his competition was against Japanese fighters. It would be more apt if he primarily trained in Japan, rather than just fought there.
I agree with the rest though.
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
“Exposed” is a tad overstating it… But Aoki was previously regarded the solid number 2 in the division which he looked FAR from in that fight.
by brad23 on May 21, 2010 7:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
how hard is it to look like a killer when you’re facing sub-par opponents? it’s like those boxers that end up with 40-0 records, does that mean that they’re in the same league as mayweather or pacquio?
outside of a very, very select few the hw division has been light years behind the other divisions in terms of skill and well roundedness. don’t tell me that this person or that person is a killer and then point to a win over mike whitehead or trey telligman. some of us aren’t fickle, we’ve just always thought that the heavyweights sucked.
by K Krush on May 22, 2010 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Okay…I finally have to ask. Please name me a boxer that was not good who compiled a 40-0 record. Or a 30-0 record for that matter.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 22, 2010 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
to me "good" is relative to the p4p rankings
julio chavez jr. 39-0-1
Boxing News 24:
Besides the weight issue, Chavez Jr. has fought largely no one at this point in his six year pro career and has struggled against several of the B-level opponents that have been put in front of him. To say that Chavez Jr’s ring record is slightly inflated would be making a huge understatement, because virtually all of the opponents are the typical C and D-level fighters that boxers inflate their records.
david rodriguez 32-0 ranked by boxrec as the 25th best in the u.s. hw division specifically. open that up to the world hw divison or p4p and that’s not a very impressive ranking for a 32-0 fighter.
and i’ll admit i’m harsh using words like “sucks” that may imply they have no skill at all and that’s not true. but compared to the top fighters they’re woefully inadequate. i feel there are numerous lhw’s besides couture who i feel could have had their way with timmy. hendo, rampage, chuck, hell, even tito, the only advantage timmy would have had on them is size.
by K Krush on May 22, 2010 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i actually meant to delete that headline
because p4p rankings themselves are pointless and arbitrary. but timmy’s skillset was far behind the top fighters in the other division, as were the skillsets of the majority of the other hw’s.
by K Krush on May 22, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. punchdrank
I think he was fighting sub-par competition, Cabbage, Mike Whitehead 2 times and who is a 205er, Jason Lambert who fights at 185 now, any of the wrestlers now would smash him.
I told you not to f*ck with me.
sorry but i just cant like a guy who corners his teammate with a championship belt on
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Cigano, it is your time to avenge your master's loss!
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by CC11 on May 21, 2010 5:12 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
To me, that is the least thing to hold against him.
He was proud and enthusiastic to be the champ…can’t say I wouldn’t be too.
by Razreshat on May 21, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
i wouldnt
it screams doughbaggery to me
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Cigano, it is your time to avenge your master's loss!
Making the world a better place, one dirtbag at a time.
"Doughbaggery"
Unintentionally accurate typo?
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by CasualMMAFan on May 21, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rico
you don’t mention, and I think this pretty key to the point you’re making, that Rico was a fucking monster when Tim fought him. Tim and his management were VERY hesitant to accept the fight because it was pretty clear they just wanted to feed him to Rico.
We all know what happened instead. I honestly think that is the greatest accomplishment Tim had. The replayed his fight with Cabbage on Wednesday and my friends who hadn’t seen his early stuff were wondering what happened to him and why he changed.
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Yeah...
I should have expanded more on the Rodriguez fight…but things started to feel really long and this was initially a look at Sylvia and Lindland. I’ll do Lindland tomorrow now though because I wanted both men to get their due.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Very interested
in your Lindland piece. I’ve stated earlier today that I think the love for him is unfounded. I haven’t heard a convincing argument yet, so I am eager to see it in a different light and perhaps give him more respect than I do now.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I was firmly on Pride’s nuts in these days. Their HW div was better, as has been proven by the Fedor and Nog fights.
My lack of respect for Timmeh was how easily he was broken when he did start to lose. The man did not come back better the way real champs do.
I don't think that is fair
Fedor is clearly better than anyone else, but other than him I think the divisions were fairly equal. On top of that, Tim DID come back strong after losses. It’s the Fedor loss specifically that mindfucked him.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
It was more than Fedor. The best Heavyweights in the world went to Pride. Probably the top 10 to 15 HW’s were there at any given time. The money was better and they were marketed as the stars. Plus K1 produced a bevy of contenders.
Now the UFC attracts the best. The money and fights are there. Simple as that.
No, it's really not
HW has never been very deep. We’ll never know exactly how those divisions would have stacked up. The only thing I can say for sure is that Fedor is better than anyone else. CroCop and Nog were the CLEAR #2&3 guys in PRIDE and neither one looked far and above anything the UFC had to offer.
Prime AA and CroCop, I would bet on Mirko (I always bet on Mirko, I am a sad clown) but I don’t think it would be a mismatch or a huge upset if AA won that fight.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
For what its worth, Nogueira came over to the UFC and beat the two biggest names from the heavyweight division of that time in Randy and Sylvia.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Yes he did
But in his fight with Tim, one I love because contrary to how it seems here I am not a very big fan of Tim, it hardly looked like Nog was better than Timmy.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, the gap was much closer than I thought it was going to be, and Tim did look as good as he ever did, it proved he didn’t have the ground game, like at all, to hang with Nog. And also you bring up the Ricco fight below. Even though it was a controversial decision, its another time that Nogueira beat an elite UFC heavyweight.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Try to keep in mind
my argument is that the divisons were fairly equal, minus Fedor. Not that the UFC division was better. The close fights just go to show how much equality they had.
If we add in CroCop, it becomes more equal. While Nog squeaked by Tim and “jobbed” Ricco, CroCop came into the UFC with most people thinking he would take Fedor in a rematch after his amazing Grad Prix run. We know how that played out.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, and its not like Herring set the UFC on fire. I was just defending Nog I guess.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
=)
you’ll never have to worry about me criticizing a Nog fan. I love that guy. I’m just trying to be fair.
I also love Herring and think he gets a RAW deal from newer fans. He came closer to beating Fedor than anyone, imo. Not allowing knees on the ground fucks his while game up.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
*whole game
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess what I’m saying is Pride had the two best Heavyweights. After that it gets iffy.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Personally
I wouldn’t argue against that point. Up until Fedor beating Tim and AA I strongly felt that Nog, even with losses to Fedor, was the greatest HW of all time (excluding Igor). A lot of that is my love of PRIDE talking, though.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
To add
Ricco, how Tim smoked, went on to fight Nog (#2 in PRIDE). Do you remember that fight? Ricco, many MANY people think won that fight.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone with a brain knows that Ricco won that fight. Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is my favorite fighter ever, but Rodriguez totally shut his game down in that fight.
by RagingNoodles on May 21, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Pleasure to meet you
Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira is my favorite fighter ever
Nothing makes me happier than to be able to talk to fans who love the same guys I do and can also being objective about their wins and losses.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I've actually never watched that fight
It happened before my time, and I’m terrified of watching it and thinking Nogueira lost. I just try not to talk about it.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I watched it the once
never again. Sometimes… just sometimes, I try to argue “how Nog deserved to win that fight” :p
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions
haha...
Nog is my favorite fighter ever, i’ve said it many times.
But yeah, he lost that fight.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha, nice to meet you VegasBatman.
It’s actually an interesting fight to go back and re-watch. The first time I saw it, I was really expecting Nogueira to catch him deep into the fight with something. It’s worth re-watching just to see how good Rodriguez actually was. Nogueira had gone through an absolute tear in RINGS and PRIDE, he had just recently lost to Fedor Emelianenko but up to that point, Nogueira had had probably the most impressive HW resume ever. And Rodriguez’s performance in there was world class and it looked like he was reading Nogueira’s mind in how he was easily able to neutralize Nogueira’s submission attempts.
Rodriguez recently fought here in my local area (deep South Texas’ bordertowns) for a very small show. It was a bit sad to see a guy who was once able to handle Nogueira and Couture masterfully fight in a small convention center.
by RagingNoodles on May 21, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I keep hoping
Ricco is able to use those shows to build his way back into a bigger show.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I've never been happier to green a post.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
After the Couture loss, Tim only beat Vera and Jason Riley. He lost to Fedor, Noguiera and… wait for it… Ray Mercer.
True he had two sub losses back in the day to Mir and Arlovski, but tapping out isn’t as demeaning as getting slept or punched in the face till you’re on Queer St.
AA
his sub was set because he dropped Tim. I don’t know man, maybe you’re right. He fought a lot more cautiously after the second AA fight when he got dropped again.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I would like to see Sylvia get one more chance in the UFC or Strikeforce. If he were to get a shot at getting back to the top, I’d imagine that he would take it very serious and actually put some work into it. If we saw Tim come back in shape, I’d like to see him fight Brett Rogers. He should probably start taking all of these smaller fights more seriously if he ever wants a chance at that though.
He needs to get back in shape, go over to Japan and fight JLB and Kimbo. Because the way he’s been looking recently, that’s the only place he belongs, freakshows. I wouldn’t mind seeing him back in the fold if he starts taking it seriously again.
I just don’t get the whole, “I want to be loved” thing. He had tons of fans back in the day, but when he started acting like an idiot calling out Fedor and (allegedly) wearing his championship belt while doin’ the nasty, people saw right through that. He loved himself too much for most people to like him anymore.
"He wants to portray himself as the crazy one; I think he’s just portraying himself as the weird one. And we’re gonna know which guy’s more crazy when we get into the Octagon." - BJ Penn (about Diego Sanchez)
I always loved Tim
For his funny and awkward personality. He actually got my attention when he appeared on blind date.
I still remember Tim's post-fight interview after the Big Nog fight:
“It was classic Nogueira. You kick his ass for 2 rounds and then he catches you in something.”
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Tough sell to me Brent
And it’s not that I dislike Sylvia. I do respect him as a fighter but I recognize he is a mediocre fighter beating below average talent . Frankly his personality and “awkwardness” don’t matter to me. I embrace uniqueness. But my eyes do not deceive me and he has only been great in a relative way. He’s been destroyed by truly talented guys.
again...
Arlovski and Rodriguez. There’s 3 wins over true top of the division guys when they fought.
McGee was a top 10 guy at the time.
He was beating Nogueira BADLY in their fight.
He’s been “destroyed” a total of one time in his career. Against Fedor. He was caught by Mercer which I don’t put a ton of stock in from a historical perspective. He got caught in an armbar by Mir but i wouldn’t say he was “destroyed” there.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Beating McGee and Ricco is good on the surface, but some of it has to be discounted since Tim was juicing at the time. He looked and fought like a different guy when he was juiced. He was lean and quicker. When forced to rely on his own abilities alone, he was not nearly as impressive. And I’d certainly consider Mir snapping his arm right away in Rd 1 being “destroyed”, since Mir said he was going to do it, and went right out and did it.
We only know
he juiced fighting Gan, iirc.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah...
…he never pissed hot before or after that and my job is not to speculate on if he was using for other fights and which ones he was.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
My problem with this, is you apply “at the time” logic to a “overall” career. I think you have to apply what the people Sylvia beat did after he beat them if you want to praise Sylvia’s overall career. And as stated, many of them went on to do nothing meaningful.
It’s a totally different beast if the fighter that gets beaten goes on to have a great career, or high profile wins, or win titles. McGee and Cabbage went on to do nothing.
You can say at the time that makes Sylvia look great. Historically, however, it does not. Now we look back and we know Gan McGee would have been killed by most of the PRIDE Heavyweights at the time. I don’t see how that elevates the win at all.
Gan
beat Pedro Rizzo. I think the way Tim schooled him messed up his brain.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
it's a fallacy to draw conclusions
based on how opponents did after a fight. You can only account for what they did up to the time they fought Sylvia. There are too many variables impacting a fighter’s performance to retroactively downgrade them. Father Time for one thing. For guys like Ricco sadly it’s drug addiction. For so many guys who have lost to Fedor there seems to be a mental component to their subsequent decline.
You can only evaluate the value of a win over a fighter based on what that fighter accomplished before the fight, not after.
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He got caught in an armbar and as he was escaping his arm broke and tried to continue. He lost the fight but that isn’t exactly destruction. I mean, I wouldn’t say Shogun was destroyed by Coleman.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
He got caught in an armbar easily, didn’t escape, and got his arm broken by a super strong HW instead of tapping. He got easily beaten, and a severe injury in the process by a technique Mir is very good at. It was a domination, not a fluke injury like the Shogun fight. Mir did what he said he’d do, it wasn’t a case where Sylvia tripped and broke his own arm.
well
if Mir’s cup hadn’t caught Sylvia just right that would have been a botched armbar attempt since Tim had pulled his arm back far enough that normally it would’ve been nothing.
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Isn’t this like saying “well if Fedor hadn’t have landed those destructive punches in rapid fire succession, Sylvia wouldn’t have hit the ground and been choked out….”
Seriously…who fucking cares where Mir’s cup was? You could nitpick every move from here to Japan with this butterfly effect bullshit. For a couple of really good writers, you guys are jumping through an awful lot of hula hoops to reduce Mir’s win to equal parts choice, and equal parts chance. Don’t want to call it a “destruction”? Fine…it’s a submission loss in under a minute, with Mir taking zero damage while Sylvia got his arm broken in four difference places. Guess we’ll settle for a “bad loss” on Tim’s part.
Situations like the above are typical in jiu jitsu where the wrong or right placement of a limb, or torque can directly affect the hold’s efficiency. Mir’s win over Sylvia is no different from Fedor’s win over Lindland.
Mir discussion aside, while I agree Sylvia was an unsung hero during his time, and deserves high praise as an elite HW fighter for his time, I don’t think there’s anything wrong calling him largely irrelevant nowadays. MMA fans seem to have this strange, protectionist view of certain fighters as if they have to represent something more than the symbol of a bygone era that fighters like Sylvia are.
by David Castillo on May 22, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
He’s ABSOLUTELY IRRELEVANT NOW!
That’s not the point of this. The point of articles like this is to place a fighter’s entire career out there for people to understand what they were when they were at their best. It’s not like when I wrote to explain how good Newton or Enson were that I was saying “these guys are top of the heap right now!” It’s clear that Sylvia is probably 3-4 years past his prime as a fighter.
Mir deserves every bit of credit for the armbar. It’s simply that it’s hard to call a guy getting his arm caught a “destruction” especially as he was not in a position where an armbar usually gets finished because he passed the elbow. It’s not that Mir doesn’t deserve credit at all. Nor is it a protectionist view. It’s more of a historian’s view of MMA and appreciating what guys skill levels meant at the time in question.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 22, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think you call Mir’s win over Sylvia a destruction. It was impressive, but by no means a destruction. Destructions take time, you have to breakdown you opponent. For instance, Overeem versus Rogers was a destruction. For a solid 3+ minutes, Overeem dominated Rogers, not allowing any offense from Rogers and just imposing his own will. He broke down Rogers last weekend. Locking in an armbar and breaking half a guy’s forearm (the radius is one of two bones that make up the forearm) is impressive but not a destruction.
It's not a "fact" those are great fighters
Arlovski was never a top level heavyweight. He was marketed as such and had some dynamic wins but we know what he is. Look at his record: nothing of note there.
Ricco Rodriguez…seriously? ONE impressive win. Randy Couture in 2002. Find me another.
He was beating a out of his prime Nog who he physically outmatched, and Nog STILL found a way to win. Clearly illustrating Sylvia’s reliance on his physical tools in the process.
Look up the fight where Ricco Rodriguez totally dominated and shut down the # 2 HW in the world in Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira.
by RagingNoodles on May 21, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
When I first started watching, Tim was one of my favorite fighters. People forget that he actually has pretty good boxing. He was beating Nogueira, and I’ll proudly say I was the loudest guy in the bar cheering for Tim. Sure, he had hit a dry spell when it came to excitement, but the Nog fight was pretty freaking good. He displayed quality boxing, and patience, and got tapped by the ever so sly Nogueira.
Getting crushed by Fedor is not something to cry about. At least Tim went on to fight the greatest Heavyweight of all time, think about that one. The Mercer KO was well deserved, throwing a lazy leg kick like that and coming in in such bad shape.
I’ll always cheer for Tim, regardless of what he does. But it is sad when it seems like a whole group of fans turn their back to him (and the facts) over some losses and boring fights. There’s hope left for the big man, if he can beat Pudz tonight, he NEEDS to get to Japan. That seems like the only choice for him. A few wins there, then Strikeforce, and I think he’ll be back on track.
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It’s tough to train at 5am when you sleep in silk sheets. When he left for Affliction he got his payday. He doesn’t care anymore but I reluctantly admit he was a top tier HW just a few years ago.
I disliked him in the beginning because of his size. I thought I could do better with that size. I guess that’s why I used to dislike Shaq. But truth is I can’t do better and it’s stupid to hold that against someone. Then I piled on him like the rest of you after his boring streak. But after awhile I was forced to admit that he used the jab as good as anyone in the UFC, and that he had some of the best takedown defense in the HW.
I mean hell, I admit I was among those that thought he would be really tough test for Fedor.
I was in that stupid (in hindsight) club...
I was among those that thought he would be really tough test for Fedor.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It seemed like it made sense at the time
That Fedor destruction was maybe the most impressive performance I’ve ever seen. Its up there with Anderson over Forrest.
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After the first flurry landed, Tim just covered up and took his beating. That’s the fastest I’ve seen someone break.
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by Scott C. Broussard on May 21, 2010 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Awesome post first of all. I still don’t like Sylvia, but I checked out some of his earlier fights in the UFC, and ,I gotta admit, I was pretty entertained by them especially the Cabbage fight. I was all about Pride back in the day so I didn’t follow the UFC hardcore until about 2005-ish (give or take). So the only Tim Sylvia I was ever really familiar with was the overly cautious, boring version of him. Another thing that bothers me about Tim is that he went from being so obsessed with the Heavyweight title that he slept with belt to a guy who absolutely doesn’t care about anything except a check. When and why did he lose his passion for the sport? He looked like a completely different fighter back then.
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Well...
Losses to Arlovski, Mir, Fedor and Nogueira are nothing to be ashamed of.
You know what’s better than losing to those guys? Beating them.
Por isso eu tomo ópio / é um remédio / sou um convalescente do momento / moro no rés-do-chão do pensamento / e ver passar a vida faz-me tédio
I made a timmeh
Por isso eu tomo ópio / é um remédio / sou um convalescente do momento / moro no rés-do-chão do pensamento / e ver passar a vida faz-me tédio
Not meant in a disrespectful way...
but Tim is an example of the sport passing a guy by. The HW division has always lingered behind the rest of the sport in terms of development, and most of Tim’s wins fall into the catagorie of him beating guy who shouldn’t have been in the HW division in the first place…alot of whom now aren’t.
Tim got away with decent skills that paid off because of his stature, however as he has grown more hesitant and spent less time working on those skills his career has declined. Additionally, the HW division has grown and seen an influx of more athletic and gifted fighters who are working harder and harder…old school guys like Tim aren’t going to be able to keep up based on their old methods of success.
He was great for his time, and top 15 for now…but with the future of MMA and HW division looking good, I don’t expect Tim to stay top 15 for long.
Tim is an example of the sport passing a guy by
Absolutely. He’s a fighter of the last generation. He’s not a great fighter in the “now”
Just like Royce isn’t a good fighter in the now. Or Coleman. and so on.
And honestly, most of the current top 10-15 will be gone from that list in a several years. That goes for every division.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Out of the top fighters of today, who do you see being the “Randy” – he ones who are still competitive into the second decade of their career?
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by Scott C. Broussard on May 21, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting fact...
I googled up some 2005 MMA rankings, and while the HW picture is pretty radically different, most of the guys at 205 and some at 185 are still hanging around the top 10, if not in that same division. I think today’s HW division is finally on par, talentwise, with the rest of them….but a few years ago it was well behind.
Point being, Sylvia was doing well in the #2 org for an already thin division, and even then his period of being on top was brief. Not exactly an all time great.
Heavyweight
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Antonio Rodrigo “Minotauro” Nogueira
3. Mirko “Cro-Cop” Filipovic
4. Andrei Arlovski
5. Sergei Kharitonov
6. Tim Sylvia
7. Aleksander Emelianenko
8. Fabricio Werdum
9. Paul Buentello
10. Brandon Vera
Light Heavyweight
1. Chuck Liddell
2. Mauricio “Shogun” Rua
3. Ricardo Arona
4. Randy Couture
5. Wanderlei Silva
6. Renato “Babalu” Sobral
7. Antonio Rogerio “Minotoro” Nogueira
8. Quinton “Rampage” Jackson
9. Alistair Overeem
10. Tito Ortiz
Middleweight
1. Rich Franklin
2. Dan Henderson
3. Matt Lindland
4. Nathan Marquardt
5. David “The Crow” Loiseau
6. Murilo Bustamante
7. Evan Tanner
8. Akihiro Gono
9. Ivan Salaverry
10. David Terrell
What month? That’s a big question given that Sylvia lost to Arlovski in February of 05. So that would be the period right in between when he was regarded as a top 3-4 fighter.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
btw in which fight did he shit his pants?
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See this is why I think Tim gets a hard time more than anything. Its not that he’s a terrible hated fighter, its that he has weird facial hair, and pooped his pants once, and is a Miletich guy (and Miletich guys annoy a bunch of fans) and he said he took steroids not to get stronger but because he wanted to look hotter. Its not necessarily justified, he’s just a fighter that fans love to hate. Its too bad because he seems like a good guy.
(Also because he used his legnth and hid behind his jab for a while.)
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
“(Also because he used his legnth and hid behind his jab for a while.)”
Ummmm isn’t that boxing 101?
Pain don't hurt...
Just because something is effective doesn’t mean fans will like it.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Right...
but it’s like suggesting that Pernell Whitaker hid behind his speed, or GSP hides behind his wrestling. You use the skills and tools that you have.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
True
But some fans don’t like GSP. Haven’t we been having this exact conversation for like two weeks. Its inarguable that fans don’t like Tim, and I think that could be a reason.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Oh I agree...
it could be a reason. i’m just saying…it is a bad reason ;)
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
again i'm relatively new as an MMA fan
but why does the miletich camp got so much hate?
i get the hughes hate but why the whole camp?
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Yeah...
it was the Assuerio Silva fight. And yeah, Tim was sick.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
There is another guy who gets no respect.
The ‘Just Bleed Guy’ is not some new school TUF fan. He is an OG fan who has been following the sport since long before 90% of the readers of this site. I believe the infamous just bleed video was taken at UFC 14.
Yep
This sport has had idiot fans since its inception. Its important to remember that.
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by Neil Manich on May 21, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's just life.
You are going to have stupid people and smart people in anything you get involved with. However, forums and comment sections tend attract stupid people in droves.
nice article
i was never really like Tim much but never really understood all the hate for the man. Anyways, good article really put things in perspective and can even look at what King Mo has been saying about the fans either like you or they don’t doesn’t matter your style.
It's his lack or respect for himself and MMA that turns everyone off.
He came off a loss to the #1 in the world. Instead of training his ass off and getting back in the mix he decides to balloon up and fight Mercer? If he had any respect for his fans or the people around him he would take his career seriously. That’s why I don’t respect the man.
by HappyLittleTreez on May 21, 2010 5:50 PM EDT reply actions
The loss did hurt him mentally. There’s no denying that. And maybe he’s just trying to take some fights, make some money and retire. I don’t really feel that he “owes” it to me, you or anyone else to rebound from a loss in any specific way.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Fedor ends careers. Part of it is that he takes on the other guy at what they do best and beats them at it. That’s why, to me, he’s better than GSP or Silva. Silva ran away from Maia instead of engaging him on the ground; watch on June 26th to see if Fedor lets it go to a decision against a jiu-jitsu master. GSP humped Hardy for 25 minutes; the only striker Fedor hasn’t beaten on their feet was Schilt, who’s the best striker in history. That’s the biggest part of what killed Tim’s mentality after the loss – he had no excuses. He got totally outclassed by a guy who did what he did – control a fight with opportunistic power punches, great range and timing – way better than he did. When your strongest thing is shrugged aside by your opponent, it’s virtually impossible to come back from in any sport. It takes a mental monster to come back from that sort of thing; so far, only Big Nog has been able to do it. I wish Tim the best; hopefully he can get a career as a movie heavy or something.
by Tim the Enchanter on May 21, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Christ…can we stop with this “Fedor kills careers” shit? Mirko would go on to win the OWGP soon after. Hunt, Choi, and Zulu were and are fighters who never had careers to kill, to begin with. Lindland is a MW. Coleman has been past his prime since the depression. Arlovski would have lost to Rogers and Silva (given the way he looked) at any point in his career, and same goes for Sylvia…who would have been knocked out at any point in his career if he decided to stand with Mercer.
And Overeem would have mauled Rogers before or after the Fedor fight. I realize Fedor’s great and all, and I’d love to join in on the blowjob festivities but let’s stop pretending his resume since the epic Mirko fight hasn’t been complete ass.
by David Castillo on May 21, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He owes it to himself. You risk getting seriously hurt every time you step in the cage, however rare that chances are. Coming into fights looking like you haven’t seriously trained is a slap in the face of MMA. It shows he doesn’t care..that all he wants is a payday.
Basically he went from a career fighter to a serious freak show. I usually don’t like to use the that term but when one of the athletes isn’t taking it seriously, it’s no longer a contest it’s a freak show.
by HappyLittleTreez on May 21, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
He doesn't owe it to anyone...
but don’t expect his general level of respect from fans to benefit from it either.
Tim is a try-hard.
That’s what bothered me about Tim. Not that he was boring, though I admit some of his fights were snooze fests. To be fair, he has had some equally exciting fights also, like his first win against Arlovski. What bothered me about Tim was that he seemed too… desperate. I mean, we all want to be liked by others, but with him it was like he had this B.O. of desperation that saturated everything and anyone he came across. It’s just not appealing. And it seemed the more fans picked on him for it, the more desperate he became, which only fueled people’s dislike of him. If I recall, you could hear it in his voice when Nog beat him; that fans were just maybe starting to come around to him and he goes and loses. It was like a sad panda bastard, you know?
I think
you hit the nail on the head for why I don’t like Tim. I respect the hell out of him as a fighter but have never, ever wanted him to win. He just irritates me. I think you point out why.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I definitely rooted for him when he fought Monson. I hate Monson.
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by Richard Wade on May 21, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The problem is he never beat anyone noteworthy. The other problem is he tested positive for steroids and after that he looked even worse so that kinda takes the steam out of beating guys like Mike Whitehead (lol) or Joe Riggs (double lol)..
"The problem is he never beat anyone noteworthy"
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
…he didn’t ever fight Joe Riggs. But nice try sir (triple lol).
He beat Mike Whitehead twice…in 2 days. He beat him in a little over 3 minutes and then again in a little over 2 minutes. That was part of winning the 2 day Superbrawl 24 tourney. A tourney during with Mike Whitehead beat Ben Rothwell. Who I’m sure you take very seriously given his current status as a UFC fighter.
As for “never beating anyone noteworthy” I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions
actually...
Let me give my thoughts on “never beating anyone noteworthy.”
Sylvia fought and beat every noteworthy heavyweight the UFC had from 2002 to 2006, with the exception of Frank Mir. He never got the chance to avenge the loss to Mir because Mir crashed his motorcycle and then was not considered a worthy challenger to Sylvia when he came back because Mir was losing to Vera and Cruz (understandably, given the injury and time off).
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
who the fuck was mike whitehead back then? and who the fuck is he now? He couldnt even get through tuf (back then).
Guys like Big Nog, Mir, Randy have actual noteworthy wins on their records. Fedor beating big Nog 3 times. This guy was nothing more than a jobber in a very weak division. Rothwell is also just another fighter… nothing noteworthy there.
Beating Mike Whitehead does not mean shit.
Who’s on your record and where do they stand in history… that is what history will remember. Fedor beating Big Nog who’s going down as the 2nd best hw ever means alot – his greatest accomplishment thus far. What is Mike Whitehead going down as? Just because you bought the hype back then doesnt mean shit.
Big Nog and Fedor and even Crocop (because he was in what we can now see as the more competitive division at the time) were the top of the HW’s.
Arlovski couldnt beat Sylvia and a 205’er moved up and kicked his ass. But my main point was Sylvia was caught using steroids and ever since then he’s looked like shit. Same with Sherk. As useless as you think the testing is they both have looked like completely different fighters after being caught.
by mmalogic on May 21, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yea
let’s just ignore Ricco and his 2 round tooling of Nog.
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by Chris Barton on May 21, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
So…what you’re saying…is that the UFC needed to co-promote to get their top heavyweight for a 4 year stretch the kind of wins he would need to have been validated.
…interesting.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Im saying the division in the UFC had the depth of a kiddy pool and we saw what happened with the cross over. We can all admit that we bought the hype but history clears all that up. We dont need to make excuses and continue justifying it.
Fedor can lose his next 3 fights but that will take nothing away from his status Correct history will remember him as the greatest HW. Correct history will remember Tim Sylvia and Arlovski as nothing more then Big fish in a small pond.
Joes Riggs a 170lber was fighting at HW in these shitty tournaments you’re giving Tim so much credit for.
Coleman will go down in the history books as a “great”. Maybe you can argue some of Tim’s wins were noteworthy depending on the definition but he was busted for steroids tainting it.
Unfortunately all the “Greats” are pride products… one of the perks of having the most competitive HW divisions in the industry. And I would like to say that’s not the case because they had no drug testing… but when NOG and Fedor came stateside and got tested they put their foots up their asses and showed the order of the totem pole.
Mike Whitehead wasn’t anyone special (he’s far from a bad fighter now though). Winning 4 fights in 2 days is something meaningful though. That was a big heavyweight tournament at the time.
Also, after the steroids what did Tim do? He re-won the heavyweight title and went 7-2 from 2004 – 2006. Yeah, he didn’t look as impressive, but he was fighting better fighters also.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Because you obviously don't know what you are talking about.....
why don’t actually read Brookhouse’s main post. I think you would get a lot of use out of it.
Man I just got a warning for trying to start a Fedor post. Damn Lesnar lover. The whole point I wanted to bring up is what the hell?
Slyvia , AA, Coleman, Lindland and now Brett Rogers have all seen there careers take horrible turns from going up against Fedor recently. I mean they couldn’t have all sucked that much could they?
Fighting Fedor is equivilant to being on the Madden cover. Just not a place you want to go.
Losing to Overeem isn't a horrible turn in your career,
I was never sold on Rogers because of the competition he has faced, but he may have something, he needs to fight someone on his level though, Fedor and Reem, not on his level.
I told you not to f*ck with me.
Big Tim is just an outlier
He came into MMA at the right time and he capitalized on his size at the right time. It was just circumstance. Heaveyweight really sucked in the Dark Ages. Hell Gan McGee was considered a decent Heavyweight during that time. Tim Slyvia was never a great fighter
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
He was absolutely a great heavyweight during an era where the tools he had allowed him to be so. Again, this is like saying Royce Gracie was never worth anything in MMA, all he did was beat up on scrubs who never amounted to anything. Royce was the man during an era. Tim was the man in the ufc heavyweight division for an era.
As the sport evolves and more money can be made in it, better athletes will continue to come into the sport and eventually we’ll be looking at the top stars of today saying “they couldn’t compete with THIS era’s fighters!” Just like I have no doubts that Babe Ruth would be at best a utility player in modern baseball if he was simply transported in time, unless you adjust and look at what he did against his contemporaries in the time he did play.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 6:55 PM EDT up reply actions
The difference here is, that if you compare Tim Sylvia in his championship era to other relevant HWs at the time, he would not have been competitive. He is only noteworthy due to winning a title and defending it a few times.
It’s not like we’re saying Brock Lesnar would SMASH Tim…we’re saying that if he was fighting Fedor, CC, Nog, etc. etc. at the time he would have been losing. He was in the UFC, which had a very weak heavyweight division, and managed to luck into a title.
Royce was fighting the best competition available at the time in the biggest org at that time. Tim was fighting whatever scrubs UFC could find that weren’t a big enough draw to make more money in Japan.
by Jason H. on May 21, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We don’t really KNOW that for a fact though. Maybe Tim’s peak was in 2003-2006 and he could have competed with those guys. I’m basing on what he did not guessing what would have happened.
Look, I’m cool with people not buying Tim as ever being good. But it’s pretty indisputable that he’s a top 15 all time heavyweight right now.
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by Brent Brookhouse on May 21, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m having trouble with this whole idea of discrediting Sylvia’s wins because of what the guys he beat went on to do (or not to do). You can do that with almost any (once) great fighter that’s been around for awhile.
Randy Couture? Pffft. His biggest wins were against guys who were hyped and never went on to anything (Gonzaga), guy’s who couldn’t were “exposed” later in their careers (Sylvia, Rizzo), a “natural middleweight” (Vitor), fighters who fizzled out (Tito and Chuck), and he was beaten handily by a former PRIDE guy (Nog)… kinda takes the steam out of beating down Mike Van Arsdale and aged Mark Coleman. lol.
Tim fought many of the best HWs at the time and crushed most of them.
And before someone asks, no, I’m not trying to parallel Randy and Timmeh here, but cut the latter some slack.
by kid_eh on May 21, 2010 6:41 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
The huge difference is...
The best heavyweights in the UFC did not equal the best heavyweights at the time.
It’s very easy to discredit older wins of aged fighter. Our sport has evolved so fast that comparing Tim to the new breed of HW fighters is like comparing Lebron to Dr. J. He had some big wins in his career and a few belts. Being a champion is something the haters can’t take away from him.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on May 21, 2010 6:48 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Britney in that bottom picture...
is at least top 10 in women’s MMA today due largely to how she can swing an umbrella. But that isn’t saying much.
Isn’t she hot again?
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on May 21, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
So from that opponents list...
Of all of those guys Tim beat who were considered good “at the time”, did any of them go on to do anything of note after fighting Tim? So is it that Tim Sylvia is a magical fighter-breaker and all of the guys he beats suddenly are never good again? Or is it that maybe they weren’t that good in the first place?
Tim Sylvia was king of the UFC when UFC had an absolutely awful HW division. Guys like Gan McGee and Cabbage were built up as stars because that’s who UFC had to work with, so they did the best with what they could.
Tim Sylvia was a decent banger in the right place at the right time, so he actually locked down the HW division for a bit. That is all.
by Jason H. on May 21, 2010 7:18 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I tend to feel sorry for Tim Sylvia but he really has brought a lot of it onto himself with a couple of poor showings in big fights and some real bad career choices as of late. Still there is a reason he has been a highly ranked fighter for so many years and he deserves more credit than people seem to want to give him.
Very little in that write up makes me change my opinion of Tim Sylvia.
(And I still think he is boring to watch; even when he is “a wrecking machine” and going through someone it seems awkward and more to do with his size than skill)
(Also, typo in the third paragraph: “While many may be quick to dismiss a win over Correira as meaningful”, probably meant meaningless? Don’t know if you can still edit it or not, but thought I’d let you know)
"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali
thanks...
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 22, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions
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