The Martial Art Called Wrestling, Part 2

with certain, not all, fighters is when they use their wrestling to essentially stall the action to a crawl, while inflicting little or no damage of their own, looking to ride out a win, as opposed to taking a victory. See Joe Warren during this season of Bellator or how Mousasi out struck King Mo from his back almost 2-1 in their fight. 2 horrible wins IMO.
It’s actually entertaining and more impressive when when a wrestler can actually do something with a take down, like Bones Jones or Phil Davis.

Its not a question of “getting” wrestling. I get the scrambles, the takedowns, the transitions and jockeying for position. Its just dull. Wrestling is gradual. Moving from one position to another without being able to apply anything else makes the seconds tick down much slower.

It’s as boring as watching someone play a game instead of playing it yourself.

It can get even worse with a GSP Hardy style matchup where one guy is so overmatched that there isn’t even offense returned. I shudder to think I would have to pay to watch Antonio McKee.

Of course, there are some wrestlers who are great to watch. Fitch is a great example. His fight against Thiago was the definition of a clinic. Bones is going to be awesome to watch as he grows.

Where did Michael Schiavello actually say wrestling is hurting MMA in his own words?

He basically says that fighters need to evolve to stop it in the last paragraph. Apparently, nobody reads entire articles anymore.

I really hate when people bring up Antonio McKee and how he should be fighitng in the UFC becasue of his record. Lets be honest Antonio McKee has racked up alot of the record agasint sub par competition that he really should not be going to decisions against. Its not like he got that record fighting the best or even mid level competition in his weight class now. Any time he has come across good to mid level competition he has lost or it was a draw. His most difficult fight was against Karo and he got beat in a easy 30-27 decision.

that MFC belt everywhere, in every corner he works, tied to his back, Tim Sylvia and Tito Ortiz style a small decade ago, please……..

Some mma fans are just poorly educated. Take wrestling classes or join a wrestling club, you will learn to have an appreciation for “lay and pray”.

Shit. And to think I watched this sport for entertainment. I had no idea I was supposed to be marveling at someones wrestling acumen.

Yes, McKee and Mo are right: why should they fight a different way? To please the fans? Fuck that – the point is to win. If I am a fighter, and I have a method that gives me a .999 winning percentage, I am going to keep doing it.

But at the same time, “entertainment” is subjective. I train BJJ and have wrestled in the past- I “get” the intricacies of both disciplines. Doesn’t mean I have to enjoy a wrestler who maintains top position and does very little damage. I also don’t have to enjoy a guy who employs a masterful defensive guard while offering up little in the way of offense.

I can enjoy a sloppy brawl like Griffin/Bonnar and still be an educated fan.

Stiropolous should have his grappling pants-but-not-really-pants outfits outlawed.

I lurk around here alot but have felt compelled to coment until now. In sports you win however you can, within the context of the rules. You have to go with what brought you to the dance to begin with. If that is wrestling then wrestle. The flip side is the fans pay to see fights that interest them. If most fans, educated or otherwise, do not like to watch grappling they wil turn the channel. The fans pay the bills, if a fighter wants to be the best at any cost and cannot draw fans they will simply not get paid. If you want the paper you have to put butts in the seats. Personally I love to watch good grappling, I am the minority.

I tend to think that wrestling is eroding the type of fight that most casual fans consider to be “exciting” in MMA. And attracting the casual fan is key for the growth of the sport…

It’s not that people dislike wrestling in all it’s facets. It’s that people dislike inactivity. It doesn’t matter if it’s two counterstrikers looking at each other for the whole fight or a wrestler gaining top position and not actively improving position. If the fighters are actively grappling like say Guida they will often become fan favorites just like if they’re actively striking.

Lay on a guy for a round, 10-9.

Punch the crap out of a guy, 10-9.

The system is imported from boxing, where there are ten rounds and everyone fights the same style. Wrestling isn’t scored that way – you get points for certain moves (I think).

Change the scoring and keep standing them up when they aren’t improving position.

But hey – you need takedown defense in the sport. No quesetion.

I’ve learned to drown out the stand em up crowd at the bars I watch MMA at. I don’t really get the issue. I know at times it can be a tad boring but it is a part of the sport. I think in more cases then not the fighters are stood up way to early. It sometimes appears that accomplished wrestlers are being punished for being good at their craft. Wouldn’t it be silly if the ref said to two fighters in the midst of mixing it up on their feet “okay that’s enough of that punching and kicking. Get on the mat and wrestle”

the judging that gives wrestling an unfair advantage that’s causing the issue.

yes.

wrestling is in every school in America, high school, college even middle school that creates a HUGE pool to draw from. A crappy 4A school will crush a 1A school 90% of the time in any sport because they have 4 times as many people to draw from to form a team. Wrestling has done well because it has tens of thousands of wrestlers to draw from that practice 5 days a week in high school and college.

Imagine if muay thia was in every school like wrestling and you got to draw from that huge of a pool of muay thia fighters who practices 5 days a week from middle school on up…..same thing for jiu-jitsu etc. It is not that wrestling is a superior art of combat it is just a matter of math.

Here’s a marketing concept: Tell your current and prospective fans that the reason they don’t like a large portion of your product is because they’re too stupid and unrefined to properly appreciate it.

I might not know much about wrestling, but I know a hell of a lot about PR, and this “education” concept, my friends, is a dead letter. If people don’t like highly technical positional battles, they’re not going to like them more after you talk down to them.

There are purists who will tell you that the NFL was better when the forward pass was only a tool of last resort. They will tell you that 7-3 and 3-0 field position wars were far purer and more interesting than today’s 28-21 shootouts. But if the NFL had listened to those voices, it would be far smaller and less successful than it is today. The NFL has consistently tweaked its rule-set to encourage what can only be described as a fan-friendly style of play, and its success can be largely attributed to that adaptability.

I honestly don’t know what those sorts of tweaks would look like in MMA. It’s my sense that the Pride rules and ring configuration was more balanced (in terms of putting submission guys and strikers on equal footing with wrestlers) than the UFC structure, but I could be way off. What I do think is that structural changes should be considered if the current structure overly favors safe, boring, positional wrestling.

Like I said above if karate or any other art was in all of the high schools and colleges the way wrestling is and kids got to compete in jiu-jitsu with each other and have state champs etc from age 11 on up the way they do in wrestling then you would have a much bigger pool of jiu-jitsu fighters to draw from and the cream of the crop would go to the UFC and we would see a dramatic increase in jiu-jitsi based fighters. It is all numbers. More people in America at least wrestle than any other art because it is FREE in the school system. We are seeing the top wrestlers from a pool of a hundred thousand but when it coes to jiu-jitsu or muay thia maybe a pool of 30,000 of which 90% have had less than 3 years of it. Wrestlers get to start 5 days a week practices in every school in America from middle school on. You cannot ignore that fact. It is a numbers game not the art. Hence why almost all the top wrestlers in mma are Americans and the jits guys are from Brazil for the same reason.

“Maggie Hendricks, possibly one of the most knowledgeable wrestling fans writing about MMA today…”

Can you elaborate on this?

but I think it’s unfair that McKee isn’t in the big leagues even if he hasn’t lost a bout in YEARS, while not-so-talented lightweights who don’t even deserve to be in the UFC can get several bouts with the promotion. see: Dave Kaplan.

If he can get multiple TUF and UFC bouts while clearly not UFC-level, a guy with McKee’s skills should get a shot as well. They’ve been saying this is more sport than spectacle right?