Paul F. Tompkins vs. Ken Shamrock
by Chris Nelson on May 20, 2010 1:49 PM EDT
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I've been listening to the Best Show on WFMU archives lately and came across a funny bit from the 7/21/09 episode. The show's host, Tom Scharpling, and guest Paul F. Tompkins were dissecting a promo for last year's "Gathering of the Juggalos," which advertised a pro wrestling appearance from Ken Shamrock.
Tompkins had this story to share about "The World's Most Dangerous Man:"
I did this series of internet shorts with Andy Richter where we traveled all up and down the West Coast, interviewing different people who were-- you know, who excelled in their field, whatever it was, and one of the people was Ken Shamrock. So the idea is that the thing's supposed to be funny, and I think Ken Shamrock was afraid that I was gonna make fun of him or something, and you know, it's like a hard thing to sort of goof around with somebody but not-- you know, I was not trying to mock him in any way, and I was not mocking him. In fact, I thought I did a great job of pretending to be interested in his dumb, violent sport.
So, for a gag, it's gonna be funny, 'cause I'm standing there in a tie, you know, "show me some moves and holds" and stuff like that. This guy knocks me to the ground, like for real, it's not like-- I'm not a mixed martial artist, by any stretch, and there's no prep to this whatsoever. He knocks me to the ground, gets my arm behind my back, and like pushes it to where it hurts. Like, really hurts. Not like it's on the edge, like "oh, if you go one more quarter of an inch, I'm gonna feel that." It's like "no, you're hurting me."
Then he does this thing where he like-- I'm like, "alright," just pretending, like I'm acting it up, "oh, okay -- uncle!" and all that stuff, and uh, "let's do another one!" And I'm thinking "he's not gonna hurt me... he must know that he's hurting me." He does this thing where he gets me on the ground again and then, like, twists my leg to where it hurt so much that I felt it for months. To where -- and I've never had this thought in my life -- where I thought "could I sue Ken Shamrock if I have a permanent disability from this dumb eBay online internet short?"
This guy clearly wasn't sure if I was making fun of him. Just to be on the safe side, he was gonna hurt me and show me who was more powerful. Like, "I might not be smart, but I can cripple you, so I think I win." And that is the definition of a bully. Someone who knows they can beat you, and then beats you.
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Ken Shamrock is the man. And no, he wouldn’t have a case against Shamrock. Maybe some worker’s comp from his employer if he was doing it for someone but you can’t ask a fighter to show you moves and then sue if you get hurt.
Yeah you can.
By your rationale, if I ask Shamrock to show me some moves and he breaks my arm, drops me on my head and soccer kicks me, it’s all good.
Nope.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
Yeah, way to take it out of context.
I didn’t say “nobody could ever sue an mma guy if they asked if he could gently shake their hand and the guy broke his skull and ripped his arm off”. I was commenting on his specific situation. I do this for a living and this guy would have a very, very weak case. After he had already felt Ken be a little too rough, he asked him to do it again and that’s when the alleged damage happened. There are some pretty frivolous lawsuits out there that people do win, but it’s not as easy as the general public thinks to win a case like that.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
but what ozzz is saying is still true
“showing” a move implies you’re doing it for show, for educational purposes. considering the actual context of why it was done and when everyone had every reason to believe that this would be for show. that shamrock took it an extra step and actually hurt the guy (including not just “showing” him the hold but knocking him down first) i see no reason why this couldn’t have been considered assault, civilly if not criminally.
the more info out there about shamrock you can’t be surprised. a sadistic, steroid case with rage issues who’s not only been given numerous passes for bad behavior, but rewarded for it.
The basic premise of what he is saying is true.
But, he was telling me that I was wrong by using a completely different scenario to back it up. My point is that in this case specifically he already knew that the first one hurt him more than expected and then asked him to do it again. He would have to prove malice and he wouldn’t be able to do that when he asked Shamrock, who had just hurt him seconds before, to do it again. If he asked him to show him a move one time and Shamrock rushed him, beat his ass, and seriously hurt him, then he would have a case. Knowing that it was physically painful to be shown moves by Ken Shamrock, he chose to say “let’s do another one!”.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Huge gaping hole in your arguement.
If I ask you to kill me, it’s still illegal to do it. You are an independent, rational human being, and you are responsible for the consequences of your actions, regardless of what idiot is flapping his gums at you making requests. The “he told me to” defense never works in a court of law.
by judonerd on May 20, 2010 7:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh. My. God.
Once again……we have specifics to go off of here…..so why are you generalizing my argument toward an extreme such as killing somebody?? I already explained this when the last dude tried to use soccer kicks as an example. He would have to prove that Shamrock intended to hurt him (easy, with soccer kicks and fucking killing the person). Since Shamrock already had hurt him, and he then asked him to do it again, how would he show that Shamrock’s intent was anything other than trying to demonstrate a move on a willing participant?
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It's like your instructor demonstrating a judo throw on you....
and it hurts. Then you walk up to him and say “let’s do another one!” (the exact wording used in this article). It hurts again. You then sue him.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
why are you generalizing my argument toward an extreme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum
Your lawyerin’ is weak. I wash my hands of this.
Your reading comprehension is weak.
Which is why your argument had no merit from the very beginning. We were talking about this specific case (at least I was) and you two turned it into soccer kicks and killing people, a far cry from the specifics of this incident. I gave you an example that is almost exactly the same situation as the Shamrock one, and rather than admit that you hadn’t even read our conversation to that point, you throw out a half assed insult and leave as though you had accomplished something on your precious interwebz. That just makes you a big meanie.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, fine.
The judo example is flawed in two ways:
1. The issue is not “that hurt” but “that hurt for months”, i.e. Shamrock caused lasting medical damage.
2. THEY MAKE US SIGN LIABILITY WAIVERS IN JUDO. Why? So we can’t SUE THEM.
Obviously if you have a waiver you wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
1. Lasting medical damage is not what would be decided. Intent would. I am also willing to admit that the Court might decide in favor of a negligence claim if his lawyer can show that he breached his duty of care (if he even had that duty in this situation).
2. I don’t have a waiver where I take my bjj lessons. I don’t have a waiver at the gym where I take private MT lessons. Some places do it, some places don’t.
Dude we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I’m not going to take the time to research case law and post an essay on the subject, but in my experience I don’t think this guy would have a case given the circumstances.
by Brandon Starr on May 21, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Those that don't have it will hurt eventually.
Had a lawsuit at a gym just down the road from me a few weeks back end because the gym had the fighter that got hurt sign a waiver. They were being sued for a quarter mill.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
if your instructor then throws you to the ground (not what you asked to be shown) and then puts the move on you to the point he physically damages you, it’s irrelevant if you ask him to do it again, the crime has already been committed. and considering that tompkins a. still had a job to do, b. might have (reasonably) figured ken hadn’t meant to hurt him and c.was probably in a mild state of shock, an argument could still be made that the second incident was another crime or a continuation of the first. judonerd is right, because tompkins asked to be assualted, that doesn’t mean it’s legal to assault him.
First off....
you are thinking of battery. Assault is the act of causing fear or apprehension of an imminent battery.
Regardless, I was just trying to lend my expertise (if you can call it that) on this particular case and what a Court wold likely decide. Given the specific elements (no soccer kicks, no murder, not even a scratch or mark or a call for help), I don’t think a judge would rule in the interviewer’s favor. I’ve seen similar cases and I don’t see any way the guy wins this case. The Judge would be shaking his head in his chambers before he even sat down to listen to the arguments.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions
i hope that's not true
i’m a performer and i’ve had to perform with people in fight scenes and with weapons when their irresponsibility hurt me and could have hurt me a great deal more. just because it’s my job, i know what i’m getting in to and i have to do it 8 times a week, i hope i still have recourse if some jerk decides that he’s going to hurt me for real.
for that matter if i’m at a jiu-jitsu class, ask to be shown a toe hold and instead get my ankle damaged by an irresponsible, angry and violent teacher, i hope i have legal recourse.
I think you'd be surprised.
I have become very pessimistic about our legal system since I started working in law firms. It’s not about what happened in that jiu jitsu class; it’s about proving that his intent was to hurt you. Otherwise it’s a simple training accident in something that you chose to participate in. There has to be intent and you have to be able to prove it.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions
with shamrock's history
i don’t think it would be difficult to build a pretty damning case against him. a few readings from mikey burnett’s book would paint a rather clear picture that this is something shamrock is known for. i don’t have the personal experience to argue against what you say would happen, but if it’s true it’s very disappointing.
Shit, you're telling me.
In school we are given case examples with only an explanation of what happened. We then have to write a persuasive essay (citing case law, statutes for the specific jurisdiction, etc) explaining what is likely to happen in front of the judge. I usually will read the example and form my own opinion based on what I think is right, in the moral sense. By the time I have completed my legal research I’m usually wrong, and it’s usually because of some stupid technicality. Jane Doe claimed _ and in order to prove _ you have to show this, this, and this. She can only show two of those things. The statute states she has to show all three; the case is likely to be dismissed. It’s really lame to be honest.
by Brandon Starr on May 20, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not saying that you can’t sue your BJJ instructor for negligence, right? If your instructor cranks a kneebar and disables you, you sure as hell have a negligence case. You may not win, who knows, but it isn’t ridiculous to think that Shamrock was negligent and exceeded the scope of the other guy’s consent.
Aside from all the semantic's.
Do you think Shamrock might have been slighted if he felt buddy was making fun of the sport and not just him? I personally think of you’re going to make fun of a guys living,especially if the guy is a legendary MMA practitioner, you should probably do it from a distance.
he knew he was filming a video with two comedians and tompkins said himself he was going out of his way NOT to make fun of him and he thought he’d done a great job at it.
if you’re a somewhat celebrity and you’re paid to do a video short with two comedians what would you be expecting? an in-depth discussion of severn/shamrock 1?
This guy should stick to lists on VH1
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
While Tompkins is right about this, this is what he gets for being incredibly unfunny and a smarmy dickhead all these years.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Well he’s no Jim Norton, that’s for sure.
(fart sound)
by Chris Nelson on May 20, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Jim's act is repetitive
I’ll give you that, but he’s naturally funnier than Tompkins.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
You might be right. I give Tompkins a lot of leeway because he was on Mr. Show, one of the greatest sketch shows ever.
by Chris Nelson on May 20, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
It hurt my heart to see Tom Kenny go from that to Spongebob Squarepants. I know it must pay well, but damn…
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 20, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
i don't like spongebob
but enough people i respect like it that i don’t say anything about it. i don’t have anything in particular against it, but i absolutely don’t see what’s supposed to be so damned funny.
Tom Kenny's like a voice over king
he’s been doing it for years, and Spongebod has probably been keeping his pockets fat for the last ten years. I’m sure it beats whatever the hell it is Thompkins does on the regular.
Training BE since January 2010
He was the only bad aspect of Mr. Show, though.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
i like some of tompkins stuff
freak wharf was a decent album. what i don’t like about him is that his stuff always sounds way too over-rehearsed and melodramatic. i mean, bill hicks would joke about plowing through this shit for the millionth time, but it still came off as fresh and spontaneous and you could hear in the bootlegs that he’d mix things up. with tompkins i feel like he’s composed the words with the pauses and specific pitches all set in concrete.
and he was great on mr. show, including being one of the shining stars on the very funny commentaries. i guess when he’s forced to defer to greater comedy minds than his own he’s quite tolerable.
I’ve only listened to Freak Wharf once, thought it was pretty good, but it was weird that the first few tracks were called “Riff Suites” when they definitely weren’t riffs. The funniest stuff I’ve heard from him lately is when he’s on Best Show, or when he calls into Comedy Death Ray as Andrew Lloyd Webber or Ice T.
by Chris Nelson on May 20, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
Just a dude. I wouldn’t worry about it.
by Chris Nelson on May 21, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Ken Shamrock
You remember. He used to be somebody.
http://www.vancouversun.com/mma
by Ozzz on May 21, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I’d like to see Shamrock vs. The Gorch, chains allowed.
by Chris Nelson on May 23, 2010 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions
can't find the video of this
but here’s a preview video for the show where you can see Shammy putting Tompkins in a heel hook about 5 seconds in :p Ouchies
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
What’s the guy complaining about? At least he didn’t get beat to a living death
"Ten more seconds is all I ever ask. That's the good thing I learned about being KO'd twice. You don't see it coming -it's like death- you don't plan for it so don't wait for it. So many people are afraid of getting Ko'd that their hands stay home, but not me. I got to go out there and shoot the lights out and fall down" Jens Pulver
by StevenGiles on May 24, 2010 6:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
They don’t call him the World’s Most Dangerous Man for nothing.
"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard
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