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My Thoughts on the Prevalence of Wrestlers in MMA

This is from a piece I did about a month ago right after King Mo took Gegard Mousasi's Strikeforce LHW title.

A very interesting thought came to me Saturday night, a thought that had been stewing for some time. As I drank my fourth gin and tonic, I had the unfortunate duty of slurring an explanation to my roommates about why King Mo was victorious over Gegard Mousasi. Granted, both of them are "casuals" in the most extreme sense of the term; two are only enamored with fencing and soccer and the other hasn’t been into sports since he quit the football team freshman year.

But, they oblige me when I watch MMA and are always down for me to show them a sick knockout highlight. Hell, one of the fencers has two Cro Cop montages in his YouTube favorites and the other fencer wants to go to the first UFC in New York with me. So they are aware of the sport and know the main card-type fighters, but never actively seek out MMA. That should give you an accurate estimate of what I’m dealing with here.

As I’m telling them about how big a factor this thing called "positional dominance" is on a judge’s scorecard, a drunken fencer says to me, "But it looks like Moo-sassy fucked up Mo way worse than vice versa." And that was indisputable. But, as GSP-Penn I, Sonnen-Marquardt, and any number of other fights can attest, aesthetic damage does not tell the whole story.

An argument ensued when we went out and got dumber and dumber as we kept drinking. The next morning, however, I started thinking about it in the malaise of a hangover and deduced the following:

That oaf had a point.

Star-divide

It’s a perspective I think a lot of people share, too. If Mousasi (discounting the deducted point for illegal upkick) had damaged King Mo more than vice versa, why should he lose simply because it was done from his back? Let me say, though, that I think Lawal deserved the decision even without a deducted point since he did more damage in the last three rounds. But let me deal hypothetically for a moment.

If Mousasi had an exact repeat of his 2nd round in the 3rd round, he should have been victorious in the fight (again, deducted point aside). I don’t think he would have been declared the winner, though. Why? Because perspective often has a wide chasm between itself and reality. The fact is, being on top of the other fighter grants itself to looking like you are winning; you are keeping him where you would have him therefore it’s impossible for your opponent to be winning.

Positional dominance has its merits, but to me the primary objective in a fight is to damage your opponent more than they damage you. Positional dominance is often the means to this end but rarely is the end itself. St. Pierre’s domination of Dan Hardy is criticized because we never witnessed said end, yet Hardy offered absolutely nothing to consider for him winning the fight. If Hardy had, say, unleashed some Kenny Florian-style elbows and some hammerfists like Mousasi, the fight would undoubtedly be viewed closer than the blowout it was. But this hypothetical Hardy would still be facing an uphill battle because of the credence given to top control and takedowns.

Takedowns, to me, are the equivalent of walks in baseball. They are positives and should go on the stat sheet but shouldn’t allow you to win if you can’t do anything with them (cough, cough—my Braves—cough, cough). That is, unless the guy you are taking down does absolutely nothing in the fight.

In a landscape where decisions like the Bas Rutten-Kevin Randleman fight seem almost mythically impossible, I worry how the "casuals", upon whom MMA’s development and growth crucially rely, will view the second Era of the Wrestler (following Mark Coleman, et. al). I’ve lately heard, "If you don’t want to be taken down, learn takedown defense." But a great kickboxer could drill TDD for two, maybe three years and would still be at the mercy of a GSP or King Mo. While I don’t accuse the aforementioned of doing so, what’s to stop world-class wrestlers from coming into MMA and laying on top of well-rounded, elite athletes who just don’t have the same wrestling and still taking victories?

Could this discredit the sport? I don’t think so, but it would certainly regress the action-packed reputation that has facilitated MMA’s growth. People might say wrestling can be dynamic and exciting, which I won’t dispute, but I would add that you certainly don’t see the NCAA Wrestling Championships doing gangbusters on PPV. GSP vs. Hardy could never have done for MMA what Griffin vs. Bonnar did, despite the exponentially higher skills on display in the former matchup.

Nary a striking-oriented fighter can be Anderson Silva, who keeps even the most accomplished wrestlers at bay with his lethal kickboxing. He is simply unnatural, and it was God—not training or genetics—that allowed that much fury into the human body. Thus, I think there has to be some sort of rule or a refined understanding that "positional dominance" is far from the most important aspect of a fight. This would eliminate any trend toward fighters who would commonly lay-and-pray; "riding time" doesn’t count in this sport. I also think the "ten-round must system" is detrimental to accurate judging of a fight; with as much as can happen in MMA, the boxing system just doesn’t translate well. If, in a title fight, Fighter A busts up Fighter B for two rounds and then, through sheer force of will, Fighter B keeps Fighter A on the ground for most of the last three rounds, Fighter B will likely win. I’ve been a strong advocate of the PRIDE system in which the fight is scored as a whole.

Thankfully, we have Fedor, Machida, Shogun, and Silva today. But all those guys in Nebraska at the NCAA’s a few weeks ago are well aware of this new sport that allows them to become wealthy and continue using the wrestling skills that, once upon a time, most would discard after college. There could be a time when Ultimate Wrestling is the order of the day. I doubt the sport will ever get there, but the window for this exists. An MMA landscape without victorious strikers will be irrelevant.

Wrestling is the strawberry daiquiri of MMA; it can fuck you up just the same, but there’s just something more exciting about a shot of Cuervo.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

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He is simply unnatural, and it was God—not training or genetics—that allowed that much fury into the human body.

This made my chuckle.
Anderson sure is something special isn’t he.
I really hope he is able to overcome Chael’s Wrastlin.

by beerdo on May 19, 2010 3:00 PM EDT reply actions  

I agree for MMA, but don't forget in a real street fight a take down or throw is usually the end.

Sometimes a follow up kick or a couple punches are needed, but when you hit the concrete or hardwood it takes a lot out of you.
I have seen this myself, a take done done right will do more damage than a punch or even two or three.

by mixmaster2669 on May 20, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pretty good write up. I think that wrestlers coming out of college and competing with nothing but their wrestlinig experience is a thing of the past. Guys like Fitch, Kos (not anymore), Sherk, Maynard and other successful L’n’P fighters are a thing of the past.

Look at the new Elite wrestlers coming out of college:
Ben Askren (4-0 all wins by stoppages)
Phil Davis (6-0, 4 wins by stoppage)
Jake Rosholt (7-2 all wins by stoppages)
Johny Hendricks (8-0, 5 wins by stoppage)
Shane Roller (8-2 all wins by stoppage)
Mo Lawal (7-0, 5 wins by stoppage)
Shane Carwin (12-0, all wins by stoppage)

All these fighters were elite in college, and yet come out and either study and excell in Jui Jitsu or have really put their striking together and have become exciting, and well rounded fighters.

by Fedorable on May 19, 2010 3:04 PM EDT reply actions  

fitch isn't a one trick pony

His entire ground game is pretty sick. His hands just aren’t all they can be.

by JaeeJaee on May 20, 2010 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your right...

I shouldn’t have labled them as L’n’P fighters. But fighters who don’t regularly finish or look to finish fights as often as they could.

by Fedorable on May 20, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah...

he stands out to me in that if he was just slightly more aggressive, things would probably be a little different for him. I don’t understand why he’s so content to grind guys out when he could be completely overwhelming them.

by JaeeJaee on May 20, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

And in the same boat as positional dominance/aggression/control under a damage only scorecard, we have… failed sub attempts

by bigweeze on May 19, 2010 3:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I'll voice the dissenting opinion.

Anyone who thinks that the wrestlers in our sport— even the ones who tend to be boring fighters— are “just” taking opponents down and “just” holding them has no idea what he’s looking at.

Is there currently a problem with the judging? Yes, certainly. But the problem isn’t that Wrestling counts for too much, as I’ve heard some claim. And it isn’t the 10-point Must or the Unified Rules scoring criteria. It’s a lack of understanding of the sport on the part of the judges.

Takedowns score heavily, in the eyes of judges, and rightfully so. The fighter executing the takedown is exerting a high level of control over his opponent. However, if he then proceeds to lay in the Guard and get pummeled by the under-man, he begins to lose the ground phase of the game.

This is not the same, however, as taking a few hits while remaining active and attempting to advance position. People put too much emphasis on visual damage. If my opponent cuts me with an elbow from his Guard, but I proceed to pass and drop several heavy knees to his ribs from side-control, I am doing much more damage. Of course, after the fight, I might look worse than my opponent, but I guarantee he’ll feel worse.

Additionally, the utterly fallacious idea that Sub Attempts should count more towards scoring is laughable. Even in straight grappling and BJJ tournies, one takedown counts for more than any number of Submission attempts. Why should anyone be able to win in MMA on the strength of failed attacks when they can’t even win this way in their constituent sports?

Wrestling requires a great deal of training, skill, and acumen; it doesn’t deserve to be chastised simply because it is an effective method of winning fights.

by Kung-Fu Joe on May 19, 2010 4:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Joe Warren

Agreeing with KFJ

but I proceed to pass and drop several heavy knees to his ribs from side-control, I am doing much more damage. Of course, after the fight, I might look worse than my opponent, but I guarantee he’ll feel worse.

People gave Joe Warren’s last performance against Karakhanian at Bellator some thumbs down, and I 100% disagree with those people.

Obviously superficial damage plays much more to people’s perceptions (more on this in a second) but what many people definitely miss in Warren’s last fight is the internal damage done by those knees. Having been the recipient of a single rib-kick in class that I failed to block properly, I couldn’t laught, cough, hick-up, and god-forbid sneeze without a lot of pain, for around 3 weeks, slowly subsiding after that. I can’t imagine how horrible Karakhanian must feel even now a week after he had his ribcage molested from both sides by Warren.

So while it might have looked to people who don’t “get it” that Warren wasn’t doing much, the truth is anything but.

People put too much emphasis on visual damage.

I think that Mousasi knows all too well how this is viewed. His “hammer fists” from the bottom, at least to me, did NOT look like he was just “hammering” but in my mind he was swiping with the edge of the glove with the intention to cut Mo over the eyes leading to either a near blind Mo due to swelling (see: Left Eye mid-fight) or hopefully a Doctor’s Stoppage TKO for Mousasi.

by hardlyworking on May 20, 2010 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good article - but...
I’ve been a strong advocate of the PRIDE system in which the fight is scored as a whole.

The PRIDE system is terrible. People who “grew up” with it often like it for no other reason than because it reminds them of Pride. But does anyone remember the Henderson/Ninja decision being bullshit because Rua dominated the fight, only to be hurt and rocked for less than a minute, and subsequently lost because of it? Scoring a fight as a whole leaves too much subjectivity into the system. To me, the 10 point must system is fine…if we had competent judges…judges who either a) weren’t afraid to score the round a draw when necessary and b) knew what the fuck they were watching.

I don’t think winning should be about “time of possession”, but I think it’s equally silly to go “oh, look…fighter A did nothing for 90% of the fight, but that flurry was nice, so I’ll give him the win”. In what way is heavily isolated offense more important than sustained, minimal offense? The problem with MMA judging are the judges, period. No system in place will change the stupidity of judges who felt that Beerbohm won every round against Shaolin. And really, the less cues taken from Japanese MMA, the better, lest somebody starts using that godawful “must decision” system.

Then again, I see nothing wrong with the prevalence of wrestlers in MMA. I want to see the best fight the best, and if their styles are wrestling based, so be it.

It’s funny that wrestling has turned into the new age “jiu jitsu”. The athletes simply need to adapt, IMO. It’ll never be as simple as “learn to get back up”, but there are plenty of ways to minimize this type of positional dominance: butterfly guard is a great example, and woefully underused. Spiral guard would be handy, although your name has to be Cobrinha. It’s not like the traditional guard, and some half assed attempts at mission control are the only options.

by David Castillo on May 19, 2010 4:50 PM EDT reply actions  

To be fair

I’ve only been an MMA fan a little over 2 years, so growing up with PRIDE doesn’t factor into my perspective.

You’re right about competent judging being the biggest factor though, and I think that was also the culprit of all the ridiculous decisions in Pride; it’s obvious the judges would often play favorites.

As has been said by others, it isn’t wrestling that could diminish the sport’s popularity (see Brock Lesnar), it’s the wrestlers who are strong enough to just lay on a guy and win, despite the guy on his back doing more damage. Judging, as you noted, is a huge part of this.

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 19, 2010 5:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It wasn’t directed at you personally.

I’d like to see some examples of wrestlers who are beating world class fighters with “lay and pray” though. A lot of times, performances are unjustly labeled “lay and pray” because the opponents happen to possess highly fluid, and efficient guards.

by David Castillo on May 19, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no such thing as LnP.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is terribly misunderstanding the skills involved in keeping control of your opponent. Do you actually think that the bottom opponent isn’t working at a feverish pace to get out ? High level Wrestlers have spent years learning TD’s and control. If there is no resistance from the bottom , that person deserves to lose.

by Tehachipi on May 19, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is such a thing as L'N'P

Just because they are maintaining their position, which takes serious skill, doesn’t mean they are lay’n’pray fighters. Watch Antonio Mckee fight. Sure, he has so much skill and technique that he uses to smother fighters, but he rarely inflicts any damage to the other fighter. To be not classified as a L’n’P fighter, you need to be working for subs, throwing punches or knees, or improving position (not just staying in a good position without doing anything)

by Fedorable on May 20, 2010 8:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lay & pray definitely exists, it is just a lot less prevalent than most people claim.

The term lay and pray was created to describe fighters who just lay in the guard, make no effort to improve position, throw just enough weak strikes to avoid a standup, and pray for the bell to ring.

When people describe guard passing machines like GSP and Sherk as lay and pray fighters, they have no freaking idea what they are talking about. Ditto for describing a guy like Jake Shields as a lay & prayer just because his ground & pound is ineffective under the Strikeforce rules (banning elbows really hurt his game). None of those guys are laying in guard and praying for the bell. They are moving to dominant positions and they are pounding away in the hopes to create a fight ending opportunity. Sometimes that opportunity comes, sometimes it does not, but they are clearly making an effort to end the fight.

by Steve4192 on May 20, 2010 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

That’s true, if you’re labeling GSP as a Lay N Pray fighter you have no valid points in this argument.

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 20, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Ditto for Sherk & Shields

by Steve4192 on May 20, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good write up

This is a really good follow-up to the King Mo/MMA wrestling argument from yesterday.

I also feel like the two sides in this debate (to the extent that there are only two) are kind of talking past each other.

In defense of top-control and positional dominance, wrestlers point out how much skill, strength and stamina it takes to get takedowns and maintain control throughout the course of a 15 minute fight. They argue that wrestlers are among the best trained, best conditioned, most skilled athletes in the world.

The problem is, that I don’t see anyone disputing those arguments. I personally admire the strength, technique and skill of elite wrestlers…and at the same time find their style of fighting incredibly boring to watch.

Compounding matters further, is the fact that, of the three major disciplines in MMA, wrestlers can go the furthest without developing other aspects of their game. And while that speaks to the effectiveness of wrestling as a combat system, it also means there are a lot of terribly dull, one-dimensional fighters clogging up the top of the MMA ranks. I would rather have a root canal than watch another Gray Maynard fight live. If someone manages to knock him out, I’ll gladly enjoy it on replay, but I will not be forced to watch him cage-hump another fighter for 15 dreadful minutes a live event ever again. Consider him PPV poison. Fitch too for that matter.

I’m not sure what, if anything can and/or should be done about it, but that’s the problem in a nutshell.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on May 19, 2010 4:58 PM EDT reply actions  

I’m not sure what, if anything can and/or should be done about it,

Nothing. Either their opponents learn to deal with it, or they lose. If you can’t deal with it, tough shit. Sports Darwinism baby!

Not finding wrestling particularly exciting is one thing, but the idea that “wrestlers” are some kind of problem for MMA is only a problem for two people 1) their opponents and 2) fans that claim to be distanced from casual tapout wearing mooks who just want to see knockouts, but aren’t.

by David Castillo on May 19, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

The inexroable force you should be worried about is the free market...

…not natural selection. If enough of the casual fans who you hate so much find 15 minute hump-fests boring (here’s a clue: they do) it won’t be all that long before the entrepreneurs who own and operate fighting promotions do something to change it.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on May 19, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t hate casual fans. I love a lot of them simply because they tend to be sports fans, while MMA fans don’t, and that’s lame.

With that out of the way, where’s the preponderance of wrestlers at a high level humping their opponents until the bell? There needs to be proof that there is some kind of problem with wrestlers winning via “lay and pray”. I’m not talking about one or two examples: I’m talking about a trend.

Where’s this trend?

by David Castillo on May 19, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well that’s a different question. I’m not sure that there is a trend, and I’m not certain that anything needs to be done at this point. My main point is that rules have an impact on the style of play, and it’s not unreasonable to consider tweaking the rules to impact the competitive balance.

My template for that is the NFL, which I think does a really good job of staying agile and evolving the rule-set to improve the game. Whether that needs to happen now is a different question.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on May 19, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is something...

for all the folks who dislike the LnP, I say allow knees to the head on the ground, and bring back 12-6 elbows. I think that less fighters would hang out in guard or on their backs without working for something more with those rules. Top control facing 12-6 elbows and being on your back facing knees to the head would be serious motivation for advancing your position.

by Snatchl on May 19, 2010 8:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Getting takedown at will and doing nothing about is isn’t anyway to win a fight, Mousasi barely won 1 round because he was able to outwork Mo. Who quickly realised he had to do more from the top positon and did, after that it was clear to everyone inclouding Gegard himself that he was completelly controlled and beaten.

by Nightwhistler on May 19, 2010 6:56 PM EDT reply actions  

it comes down to asthetics - I cant stand moneyball...

but guess what, it works. thats why when big money is on the line, big poppy takes on 3-0. A hungry slugger should be swinging at what is most often a strike.

Wrestling works in spite of fan’s appreciation.

I also disagree with the notion that it is not a martial art.

by rearnakedjoke on May 19, 2010 7:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Moneyball doesn't work because the A's haven't won a championship in two decades

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 19, 2010 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You both miss the point of Moneyball

Moneyball is about exploiting market inefficiencies – it is not an aesthetic style. At the time it was written, high OBP players were undervalued, and therefore cheap. Then Pitching and Defense were undervalued a few years later.

Billy Beane was the first guy to use this method to assemble a team and won 4 divisional titles in 7 years despite having a very low payroll.

Very soon others caught on. You want to see a Moneyball team with a high payroll? Look at the 2004 Red Sox. Every philosophy Beane espouses was applied in assembling that team.

BOOSH

by Farthammer on May 19, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand moneyball and its mistakes

Beane basically overlooked the raw talent coming out of high school altogeher.

The point is that the data employed by moneyball was indeed a better barometer of performance, but it’s purpose will always be undermined by the fact that once those hidden gems are polished, they leave for greener pastures. Teams that solely rely on sabermetrics to put together a line-up will never win a title. If Theo Epstein didn’t have that bank to play with, the Sox wouldn’t have won.

The only major coup I can think of in recent years is Joe Mauer.

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 20, 2010 1:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I"m with Farthammer

I never thought I’d say that in any situation. But anyway…

…Moneyball was not about a team relying solely on Sabermetrics to win a title. As the title suggests, it was about doing the best they could given their money. The way to do that was to figure out what people were undervaluing.

Yes, the “hidden gems” leave for more money, but the strategy is to not overpay for any player, and to try to trade players who are going to leave anyway and get something that is undervalued at that time. You can argue that they can’t win a title that way, but they repeatedly came closer than most teams with their payroll.

High school draftees are really, really unpredictable and they cost as much as other draftees. The odds are against them being worth it.

Use all ten points.

by MasonA on May 20, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

The primary reason I'm against pure "moneyball"

Is that John Schuerholz tried to play it with the Braves in 2006 and it was our first losing season, hell, the first time we had missed the playoffs since the 80s

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 20, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think one of the best ways to even things up with wrestling is quit treating it so highly in scoring. Not saying it doesn’t count for much; but it’s more of an means to and end. And that end should be finishing your opponent (the goal of a fight), not simply controlling them.

So yes, what you do with wrestling should count for something, I’m not saying make it mean nothing. But it should mean no more than any other aspect of fighting that deals more with control and position instead of damage. If you can’t avoid takedowns cannot do anything but get smothered; then sure, that’s not a great way to win a fight. But laying on a guy and doing little damage is not really defeating him either…it’s just out-wrestling him in a sport that is not solely about wrestling. I think more wrestlers need to learn to take their base and apply it toward damaging and trying to finish their opponents.

But between the fighting inside a cage and soccer kicks and knees to downed opponents not being allowed; that gives wrestlers a little bit of an edge. (Truly, in what fight could you practically crawl after your opponent with little worry for being hit— the can’t kick, they can’t knee and if they swing for your head, they have to not hit the back)

Check out my Upd@te Streams

"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali

by JeremyShane on May 19, 2010 7:52 PM EDT reply actions  

I think that is a dangerous road to go down. Modifications have been made to MMA in the past for safety concerns, but never because a style of fighting was too effective. This could be an fine line we tread where we walk on the entertainment side of sports entertainment if we actually penalize wrestling for being too effective.

I do not believe that what Anderson does is normal for an athlete in this day and age, but perhaps with time adjustments can be made in the striking game, as he has done, to counter wrestling. Jose Aldo certainly chopped down Faber.

by castleeb on May 19, 2010 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re right about it being a dangerous road. I definitely wouldn’t want to see anything drastic. Just a little adjustment in how they score takedowns and top control with more consideration on what is done with it afterward.

Check out my Upd@te Streams

"Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.'' - Ali

by JeremyShane on May 19, 2010 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

yah I posted in another thread that big step forward for this would be to STOP SCORING PUNCHES WITH NO POWER FROM BROKEN DOWN POSTURE

people throw them not with the intention to cause damage or finish fights but just to appear active enough such that they won’t get stood up. That way wrestlers who get top control would be strongly encouraged by the scoring system to posture up and either throw a power shot or try to pass

by IpullguardIRL on May 20, 2010 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Which I find hilarious because people claim that Mo lay & prayed Mousasi, yet he spent much of that fight standing over him and trying to drop haymakers. He even ate a few upkicks for his trouble. Meanwhile, Mousasi was doing nothing but throwing ‘keep busy’ hammerfists from his back yet the wrestling-haters want to claim he won due to greater activity.

by Steve4192 on May 20, 2010 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Mo postured, I was thinking more about Chael Sonnen style

by IpullguardIRL on May 20, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

ugh. i hate when people come to my gym to train and dont know shit. they assume that fighting is just two guys standing infront of each other, throwing bombs until one guy gets ko’ed. and to make things evn worse, theyll think that only “pussies” use leg kicks… um, you really cant fight if someone takes out one or both of your legs can you? moreover, it takes way less force to have a leg kick be effective than a sloppy overhand right to the head (unless your opponent is a drunken moron with no conditioning to speak of). but i digress…

by footxstomp on May 20, 2010 12:30 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Put down the bottle...

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 20, 2010 1:14 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

the only thing exciting about a shot of cuervo...

is puking it up when your done. That is by far the worst drink in the world… corn and cactus… just dont mix.

come on get your self a nice bottle :D cazadores or hornitos isnt that much more.

by waldog on May 20, 2010 1:47 AM EDT reply actions  

i never pick cuervo, its gross.

I’d go with 1800 given the choice, but I’m a sour mash guy for the most part

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 20, 2010 1:50 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Vodka is your friend.

Remember that.

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on May 20, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

hehe

In mma when someone’s shooting to take you down you should just sit down on your butt so they don’t get points for it.

by IpullguardIRL on May 20, 2010 8:45 AM EDT reply actions  

Goddamit

Why the fuck has no one thought of this?

Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death

by Anthony Pace on May 20, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Because it is silly?

That would put you on the ground without establishing a guard, leaving the wrestler free to take whatever position he wants.

by Steve4192 on May 20, 2010 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

it's actually done all the time

with X-guard, butterfly guard, open guard, and inverted guard people just sit down and go for leglocks. But that’s sub-grappling. But then again as someone pointed out without soccer kicks what do you have to worry about? them punching downwards at an awkward angle (could always just go into inverted guard and protect your head lol)?

by IpullguardIRL on May 20, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think yours is broken

When you watch the Orioles every night, a beer after dinner turns into a six pack WAY too many times. Stacey

by duck on May 20, 2010 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

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