Muhammed "King Mo" Lawal and the Martial Art Called Wrestling
by Kid Nate on May 18, 2010 6:12 PM EDT
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This weekend HDNet announcer Michael Schiavello wrote a provocative piece for Heavy.com asking "Is American Wrestling stalling the progress of Mixed Martial Arts?"
His piece was somewhat intentionally inflammatory, but ultimately he gave wrestling it's props:
Wrestlers are among the most disciplined, hardest working and diligent athletes in any sport. I marvel at the skill level of world class wrestlers who have transitioned successfully to Mixed Martial Arts, from guys like Mark Coleman and Dan Severn in the early days who developed the prototype for the successful American wrestler in MMA. Their takedowns, top control, ground and pound recipe (I call it TD, TC, GnP) paved the way for the likes of Randy Couture, Tito Ortiz and Matt Hughes, right up to the new breed of gun wrestlers like Brock Lesnar, Joe Warren, Mo Lawal, Gray Maynard and Ryan Bader. In fact, with the exception of Semmy Schilt facing you in a K-1 match, I can't think of a more imposing sight in fight sports than a high level American wrestler standing across the ring from you knowing they are going to take you down, put you on your back, sit in your half guard and beat up on you like a piñata.
This game plan, pioneered by the Colemans and Severns remains the basic, successful recipe for American wrestlers in MMA today. The question is: does this recipe make for less exciting spectacles of MMA? Indeed a further question could be: have American wrestlers taken the martial arts out of Mixed Martial Arts? (as a side note, I never actually liked the phrase Mixed Martial Arts. Boxing is not a martial art, nor is wrestling, nor is street fighting, yet we have Mixed "Martial Artists" competing from these backgrounds. The name MMA was coined by Rick Blume [some say Jeff Blatnick] but I always thought Mixed Fight Sports (MFS) or Mixed Combat Sports (MCS) would be a far more suitable name).
...
The most recent example of classic TD, TC, GnP saw King Mo Lawal defeat Gegard Mousasi to win the Strikeforce Light Heavyweight strap. Aesthetically and from an entertainment viewpoint, it wasn't the most nipple-hardening fight to watch. For practicality, however, King Mo's game plan worked a treat. He thoroughly deserved to have the strap placed around his waist after five rounds. The same goes for Gilbert Melendez in defeating Shinya Aoki for the Strikeforce Lightweight title.
Which brings us to this interview with King Mo Lawal by Ben Fowlkes:
"[Expletive] the fans," says the undefeated Strikeforce light heavyweight champ. "Most of them are going to love you or hate you regardless, but it doesn't make a difference. Those are the same fans that thought Lyoto Machida was boring, then he wins two fights and he's the best in the world, then he loses to 'Shogun' and he's overrated. The fans don't know."
...
Even in a dominating victory to take the Strikeforce belt from Gegard Mousasi, he points out, he got severely criticized as a lay-and-pray fighter by many fans on the internet.
"I just want to tell those people, if I was laying and praying I would have never got upkicked, idiots. In order for me to lay-and-pray, I'd have to be on him just holding him and he'd never be able to upkick me. I was posturing up, trying to land punches. I actually punched myself out the first two rounds because I was so anxious to hit him."
But Fowlkes does more than just capture Mo's trash talking. Just as our own Luke Thomas discovered when he interviewed Lawal, King Mo is one of the most studious fighters in the game. He's man who spends countless hours watching tapes of his fellow fighters breaking down their techniques and cataloging their weaknesses.
I fundamentally believe that fans who complain about wrestlers in MMA simply don't understand the amount of technique involved.
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I both despise and love you
Kid Nate you are the source of the world’s problems and you stole my fan-post idea!
But you’re so right in your last line, Yay for the wrestlers!!
"Alas, there is no time-share on my balls." -Luke Thomas
I agree
Nice anti-zuffa spin, by the way.
As much as, many times, wrestling in MMA isn’t my favorite aesthetic I can’t help but respect and laud the athletes who do it. If you don’t like what they do, learn to stop them.
That said, I don’t like how scoring works with wrestling. I think damage and attempts to finish should be worth more.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
agreed
it is a FIGHT and should be scored as such.
by LeeroyJenkin$ on May 18, 2010 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree too
Though I was biased in the Silva-Evans fight I think Thiago’s ability to prevent damage should have nullified the takedowns on the scorecards.
"Alas, there is no time-share on my balls." -Luke Thomas
I disagree
think about it this way — in a fight like Lawal vs Mousasi where Gegard had a big advantage on the feet, every time Mo took him down he was escaping the danger of getting KO’d on his feet.
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Though, it’s worth noting, Mousasi and his great striking got out-landed by King Mo on the feet from outside, while Mousasi won in the clinch, so it’s not even like all of the strikes landed standing were Gegard dominating the one-dimensional wrestler. Honestly, I think the whole piece by The Voice was because he was so bummed that Gegard, who he is clearly a fan of, lost.
Throughout it he made points with lines like “Guys like Fedor, Silva, St. Pierre and Mousasi” which highlight exactly that. He was one of the many people that bought a little too into Mousasi as an already-there instead of a great prospect, and now he refuses to accept that it’s the case, so clearly it was just that wrestling defeated this superior martial artist.
Honestly, the whole piece is pretty poor. He cites Aoki-Gilbert as another case of the takedown wrestler dominating, which neglects the way the fight actually, you know, happened, in that Gilbert was the clearly superior striker, and the times the fight hit the ground were usually a result of a pull by Aoki, or Melendez jumping into guard while Aoki scooted.
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by JustBlogGuy on May 19, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I do think of it that way
which is why I do think takedowns are worth something, but not as much as they are. I don’t think there is anyway to score the Mo vs Gegard fight against Mo, so that isn’t a fight where my complaint is valid.
It’s just, as a general rule, I think actively trying to finish and causing damage should be scored higher than control. I think subs that come close to getting finished should count the same as a striking knockdown.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The last line of this article says it all
"I drop knowledge so heavy it leaves the world unbalanced, Exterminate the spiritual force of all that challenge, I'm the lyrical apocalypse that crumbles the granite, Replacing you as the dominant species on the planet" - Immortal Technique
I’m not a big fan of the dominant positional wrestling, but if it’s working for the fighters, let them do it. They’re the ones in the fight, not me. If someone doesn’t want to get taken down, then learn some damn TD defense or join a striking-only sport.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 18, 2010 6:20 PM EDT reply actions
Since when aren't wrestling and boxing martial arts?
I have always considered the two to be American marital arts. If they aren’t does a martial art have to be not from America to qualify. How is he defining martial arts?
actually wrestling would be a ancient Greek/Roman martial art. As old if not older then most traditional martial arts.
Wrestling is recorded in the Old Testament and ancient Mesopotamian texts. It’s probably the oldest sport.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 18, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
yes but GrecoRoman is actually a french style
or so said that one show with jason chambers on it….. what was that thing called?
by LeeroyJenkin$ on May 18, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps he considers “martial arts” any system that originated as a system of unarmed combat, like judo and jiu jitsu as opposed to sports like boxing and wrestling or non-systemized street fighting.
Dunno for sure, but that’s my guess.
Modern wrestling originated as pankration, the hand-to-hand fighting system for Greek hoplites. It’s rooted in war as much as any other art. If anything, judo is an artificial creation because it was codified during the Meiji Restoration as a national sport long after the samurai were constantly warring.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 18, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
My understanding was that pankration came from wrestling (incorporated wrestling and striking), not the other way around, but I’m no historian.
As for Judo, I understand it originated from Jiu jitsu, which was an unarmed combat system, but I see your point. I don’t really have a dog in this debate, I was just guessing at the author’s intent.
by Pantherhare on May 19, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s complicated, because the exact origins are unknown. Some form of grappling combat existed since prehistory – that is certain. I think prankration may be the first formal fighting system we have a record of.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 19, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree
From what I’ve read on it, Pankration was the original MMA. Based mostly on boxing and wrestling, but submissions and kicks were also used. Gouging and biting were illegal, but that was about it. Wrestling existed as it’s own event at the same time.
Wikipedia actually had a good article on Pankration, which I read the other day. I had read about it before, but it was a good refresher.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
what does that even mean?
I really doubt judo or jiu jitsu originated as anything other than self defense.
judo originated as a modern sporting style
it was distilled from Jiu Jitsu and has always been taught as a competitive sporting system, not a system of unarmed combat.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
AGREED!
schiavello just blasted the last one percent of credibility he had with me saying they were not martial arts…. please stop hiring this guy.
by cagefightonacid on May 19, 2010 12:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Wrestling works.
I did wrestling in High school so I can follow it and enjoy it but it can be boring.
King Mo is correct about fans and the MMA bandwagons.
by snakecharmer1340 on May 18, 2010 6:36 PM EDT reply actions
You should add Chael to the list…..another advantage that’s not talked about is the weight cutting these guys go thru. All fighters have to cut weight , but it’s old hat for wrestling base fighters. I think there is a mental toughness that has been brought to this sport thanks to wrestling.
by Brian Burdios on May 18, 2010 6:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If a fighter can't stop a wrestler from doing what he does, well, too bad.
I honestly believe this is just one of many stages in MMA. We’re at a point where American wresting is dominating the fight scene. We’ll also come to a point when it isn’t so dominant. Such is the evolving nature of MMA.
Also, the amount of dedication, discipline, skill and technique involved with wrestling from basic moves all the way to weight cutting is impressive. High level wrestlers are the very definition of martial arts.
by pud333 on May 18, 2010 6:50 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Top five WWs in the world: GSP, Shields, Fitch, Koscheck, Alves.
Only one of those guys isn’t a wrestler and he’s been beaten soundly by two of the others.
Top five HWs: Fedor, Lesnar, Cain, Carwin, JDS.
A majority of the top five have at least NCAA All American level wrestling.
That’s just two weight classes, but it illustrates the effectiveness of a wrestling base. The only counter for it is high level striking and elite takedown defense which really only Alves, Aldo, and Penn have done effectively.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Silva?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
An exception is not the rule...
Although the other weight classes don’t stack up that way, there are still a lot of wrestlers in the top 10 – 15’s
I'm not sold on Anderson's takedown defense being elite.
The guys who wanted him down (Lutter, Hendo) got him down, and only Demian Maia struggled with the takedown. Sonnen will plant Anderson firmly on his ass if he doesn’t get KO’d on his way in.
Nobody takes down BJ Penn aside from GSP. Aldo is fucking impossible to get off his feet, although I have it on good authority that his ground skills are nuttier than squirrel shit. Anderson doesn’t fit that mold.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
well, the 145,135lb divisions are still young in MMA
give them time to fill in…Jose Aldos will be few and far between…
It is much more likely for wrestlers to dominate the lightest weight classes and the heaviest weight classes…
by Roll NControl on May 19, 2010 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure how well Aldo is off his back
But I understand he essentially beasted Faber (albeit hampered by so much leg kicking) with his top game.
by nuttier than squirrel shit
you mean he’s good or bad on the ground?
by IpullguardIRL on May 19, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
no spine or back of the head helps wrestling...
….don’t get me wrong, wrestlers are outstanding bad asses, but the modern regulations of the UFC help wrestling.
Guys like Daley have no chance against a stud like Kos, so they must adapt, but how many times in the clinch against the cage can a wrestler going for a single leg take down hide his face in the opponents crotch, and leave his entire back exposed for punishment that can’t be given.
In a UFC 1 scenario, his back would get 12-6 elbows rained on him, so perhaps american wrestling works best in the currently accepted MMA rules.
I can sympathize with people who find it boring
But for my tastes, winning generates a certain level of interest and import all on its own. I wouldn’t necessarily want every fighter to be a tedious grinder, but if a guy is grinding tediously and winning, that’s good enough for me.
Right, but I'm assuming you do have a preference
For most BE readers MMA is like pizza or sex — even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good. But all of us have favorite fighters and favorite styles. The question is whether you find top-control wrestling (and by extension, top-control wrestling specialists) to be the most exciting and engaging fighters, or rather you prefer strikers or submission guys.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on May 18, 2010 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I prefer fighters who are accruing victories.
Secondarily to that I find it exciting when fighters utilize a somewhat different, odd, or innovative gameplan or skillset.
All the better when these two categories are combined, and best of all when a bout contains both effective striking and grappling.
“I fundamentally believe that fans who complain about wrestlers in MMA simply don’t understand the amount of technique involved. "
I disagree. I realize that there is a lot of technique involved in many things (non MMA) that I find very boring. I even understand some techniques, doesn’t make it any less boring.
As far as wrestling goes, I wrestled in HS and enjoyed it, but I still find it boring to watch. Maybe that is partly why I never became a good wrestler.
by jebmak on May 18, 2010 6:55 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
"I fundamentally believe that fans who complain about wrestlers in MMA simply don’t understand the amount of technique involved. "
I agree with this statement and Jebmak helps to prove that it is true. I too wrestling in high school and a little in college. I also coached for the last 5 years. It was not until I started to coach did I start to truly understand the different technique’s in wrestling.
If you truly understood how hard the take-downs and ground control MMA fighters are using than it would not be boring. I am not sure what the solution is to educate mma fans about wrestling but it is one of the hardest sports kids can do growing up and as we are seeing makes some good MMA fighters. Wrestlers are joining this sport at a very high rate and at younger and younger ages.
I dont understand such hatred for wrestling in general.
by Darren Watkins on May 19, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think that really gets us anywhere. I would guess that fewer than 5 percent of MMA fans have the passion or knowledge about wrestling that you bring to the sport. I, for one, appreciate the immense talent of wrestlers like John Fitch, but I find his style of fighting absolutely sleep inducing…and I’m a comparatively educated fan.
I don’t think the problem of casual and semi-casual fans finding grinding, 15-minute top-control clinics boring can be fixed with education.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I dont know what the solution is. I agree that Fitch fights can be very boring, but what is he doing wrong in is fights? I can see how Fitch would have more fans if he would finish some damn fights, but as a fighter the risk/reward for going for the kill versus opening your self up to get that done is more than they can handle. But this is about all wrestlers, and using top control and ground and pound is a clear path to victory for the foreseeable future.
As this sports grows, will people only like guys that put on entertaining fights and slug fest or will they like the technical fight on the ground like the fans in japan. You rarely hear them booing guys on the ground. How are the Japanese fans better educated than the American fans?
I dont expect people to start watching wrestling, but when fans start to boo just after a takedown while a guy is trying to pass, that is annoying and makes most fans sound ignorant. The ufc goes to the middle east in Dubia and the fans their understood the ground game perfectly fine.
by Darren Watkins on May 20, 2010 6:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, [Expletive] us!
Day-man! Fighter of the Night-man! Champion of the sun. You're a master of Karate and friendship for everyone!
"Charlie"
I’m fine with wrestlers that actually do some damage, after they have taken their opponent to the ground. BUT, when you have fighters that simply take you down and do nothing or get beat the fuck up while hugging (like Lawal), you should not be given points for the take down, but instead lose points for trying to stall or not making anything of the takedown.
It's the wrestler. Not the wrestling.
I find certain wrestlers extremely exciting. I think guys like Phil Davis, King Mo, and Cain Velasquez are very entertaining. They work nonstop and are relentless with takedowns. They always look to improve their position and look to finish opponents. On the other hand, there’s guys like Jon Fitch, Kevin Randleman, and, up until recently, Chael Sonnen. These guys lay in their opponents guard, and are content in just staying in closed or half guard. Then if the ref stands them up, they just take down their opponent, and do it all over again. I think that’s where the wrestling hate comes from. A few boring apples spoil the bunch.
Lemonade was a popular drink, and it still is. I get more stunts and props than Bruce Willis- Guru
I very much agree
With the above sentiment. Although I would certainly not put King Mo into this category of wrestler( at least yet). Maybe he cut too much weight, but in his fight with Mousasi, he admitted that he was gassed completely after the second round, and it was due to GnP from the FULL guard position, mainly with Gegard switching from complete to partial wrist control.
I honestly think that if elbows were allowed in strikeforce (which i have NO idea why they are not. Are any other promotions abandoning the unified MMA rules like this??), then Gegard would have opened him up very badly. Replace that back and forth slaps with his palm and backhand with angry, vicious elbows to the top of the head, and it would have been called due to cuts
by Ryan Tomasetti on May 19, 2010 7:08 AM EDT up reply actions
disagree about jon fitch
he doesnt finish fights well.. but your entirely off base by lumping him in with randleman or sonnen.. fitch has shown extremely technical jiu jitsu i his fights and he is constantly trying to gain better transitions the entire fight.. he just is fighting guys with great defense.
He needs to open up and rein down elbows and big hooks more.. I think if he randomly makes space for his opponent to get up but uses that to get his shots in more.. we will see a strong finishing fitch
Sorry...but
Last 6 wins…6 decisions.
Jon Fitch tops the boring list and has for the past 3 years.
He has not shown any “extreme” technical jiu jutsu. Regardless if he’s trying to gain better transitions, he seldom achieves it. In the process of trying to improve position, he doesn’t do much damage to his opponents.
Having him on the main card just guarantees less prelims being showed.
wait wait wait - "until recently Chale Sonnen?"
what did Chael Sonnen do to graduate from your “boring” list?
He’s more violent in interviews than his fights
until Mo starts putting on a minstrel show for the MMA key demographic… they will hate him.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com and MMAFighting.com, mma enthusiast
by ekc on May 18, 2010 7:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Anything can be boring in MMA two fighters standing up afraid to trade is just as bad as a wrestler doing classic lay-N-prey. If Wrestlers Its usally only boring when two things come together like 2 black holes in a binary system and that is #1 a fighter who has horrible wrestling himself or shitty take down def and #2 he is fighting a wrestler who is to afraid to posture up and strike while on top And is afraid of getting subbed so he stays in guard or half guard and does nothing but hold on. And thats getting more rare in todays MMA. Sure years ago it was a problem but today most fighters are to well rounded.
Binary black hole systems
… are in fact VERY common in the universe. In fact, when our Milky Way collides with the Andromeda Galaxy in 5 billion years, we could very well be stuck inside a giant MMA match featuring a boring wrestler!
by deepbeep on May 18, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
One boring ass MMA Match with 2 Lay n Prey wrestlers that will go on for billions and billions of years- DAM that just sucks It will be like watching Dan Severn vs Dan Severn until the universe collapses in on itself.
Round 1: In 1 billion years, our sun will expand into a red giant, incinerating all life on Earth. (Our fighter is rocked after some heavy striking, but is still in the fight.)
Round 2: Our galaxy is currently on a collision course with the neighboring Andromeda, and we will collide in 5 billion years. (From the clinch, we’re hurled across the universe by the cosmic Karo Parisyan. Losing on all cards.)
Round 3: The universe eventually consists of nothing but motionless hydrogen atoms, spaced 1 meter apart, near absolute zero. (LnP for the finish. Entropy wins!)
by deepbeep on May 18, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
…so Jon Fitch is a black hole, sucking the fun out of the sport?
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 18, 2010 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes!
And just like black holes, he can only be indirectly observed. e.g., since people walk away from the TV during his fights, the only way to be sure the fight actually happened is by reading the results on Bloody Elbow.
by deepbeep on May 18, 2010 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Jon "The Cosmic Blanket" Fitch
Also, time seems to stand still, or even stop, when one is close enough to witness a Jon Fitch fight. This can be attributed to time dilation, something that is theoretically possible due to the high gravity produced by black holes.
One may finish watching the entirety of a Jon Fitch fight (though this, in itself, is only theoretically possible), only to find that years, or even decades, have passed.
Fitch is an anomaly unto himself
I think I’ve actually seen the fight clock count up during one of his fights.
by LBo on May 19, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wrestlers are just strating to get into MMA
I have coached high school wrestling for the last 5 years and know that the level of wrestling in mma is only going to get better. I would say most wrestlers in college now days cross train in MMA and the better high school clubs have guys training in mma as well. These are some of the best wrestlers in the country that are going into MMA. The wrestlers currently in mma can not really match the level of wrestling talent that are training these days.
In the past we have had some great wrestler get into MMA but not at these young of ages. I think MMA is evolving really quickly and if a fighter cant stop a take down they wont last very long. Johny Hendricks is another up and coming fighter that has really good wrestling credentials. Better than most fighters in 170.
Nate is half right
Most fans don’t understand grappling, period – of any kind. BJJ, wrestling, etc, is just leg-humping to them, no matter how technical it actually is. In fairness to the fans, grappling is very opaque if they haven’t studied it.
certified warlord
OK, 2 things in this post bothered me........
first of all, King Mo did NOT dominate Mousasi, in fact Mousasi landed WAY more strikes and went for WAY more submissions.
All Mo did was dictate where the fight took place, but wherever he chose, he was getting beat up.
second, Semmy Schilt is SCARY??? He’s just big….. wtf?
i’d be way more worried about a striker like Anderson Silva than a wrestler like Sonnen.
Mousassi got dominated standing up
more so than on the ground…Mo won every exchange standing..
by Roll NControl on May 19, 2010 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions
The scary thing
I’d say apparently it’s the style.
Semmy
are you fucking kidding me? The dude is a god damn killer in K1.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
There's a big difference between boring wrestling and boring wrestlers
Another poster made a similar comment, but to go further on it, it’s a HUGE distinction. Jon Jones. Randy Couture. Brock Lesnar. Georges St. Pierre. Josh Koschek. Cain Velasquez. These are all wrestlers, fan favorites (to some extent, lookin at you, Kos) and exciting MMA fighters. They use their wrestling in very different (but technical) ways and do not make a fight boring.
Now compare that to Jake Shields and Jon Fitch. Two wrestlers who often bore fans to tears because they use it in an incredibly dull manner that grinds out decision upon decision. They do not often actually threaten from the ground, they use it as a tactic to rack up points. It’s the same reason a lot of boxing fans dislike Mayweather – it is a very defensive fighting style that goes for the points, rather than the finish.
I don’t think anyone is saying Mayweather isn’t an exceptionally talented and technical boxer, just as very few people think that Fitch and Shields are talentless MMA fighters. It’s the style they choose to employ that annoys people.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on May 18, 2010 9:03 PM EDT reply actions
If I could edit, I'd add in
The aforementioned “popular” fighters bring an all-around game that also includes a stand-up game. Lesnar broke Herring’s face with the first punch he threw. His last win involved turning Mir’s face into a bowl of strawberries. Cain just KTFO’d Nogueira. GSP nearly broke Hardy’s arm twice. Fitch hasn’t had a TKO win since 2006. Shields has had two in the past ten years.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on May 18, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
And Rashad only began to shake the (well-deserved) label as a boring fighter with that head kick KO of Salmon.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
what about
Chuck Liddell KO? That was vicious.
It also led him to think that he’s a great striker! Glad he realized he wasn’t vs Thiago
by Ryan Tomasetti on May 19, 2010 7:15 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed.. except putting shields in this group im not
shields has two decisions in a row.. both against larger fighters a weight class above with known strong points at having sub defense. Gsp has the same. oh no.. he’s fighting guys in his same weight class.
i guess you should throw gsp in this ground of awful wrestlers that dont finish. how can you put gsp almost finishing somoone.. when he didnt? I guess if he almost hit him with a grenade.. he would be fiinished… but he wasnt was he?
your bias is blinding..
Shields also has
12 of his 25 career wins come from decision, for a 48% decision record (and 3 decision losses). I went ahead and looked around on Sherdog’s fight database a while ago and found about 4 other people from non-tiny promotions that have a higher Decision Win percentage. Ever. All time. Yes, that’s only about 20 years in this sport, but good enough for the point. For the record, the only two names I can recall from that list who have a higher percentage are Fitch and Henderson – I’ll go look it up if you really want.
GSP has 35% decision wins and no decision losses. GSP is one of the poster boys for the UFC, and is wildly popular. Shields is not. He had fans change the channel during his big TV debut (CBS vs Miller) and wasn’t a draw vs Hendo. You can extrapolate what you want from this, but the way I look at it is that many fans don’t care for his style of fighting, and thus aren’t fans of him.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on May 19, 2010 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The “Jake Shields” is boring meme is hysterical.
He finishes 8 fights in a row, and is the poster boy for the non-zuffa lovers as they cry that the UFC should co-promote and set up Shields GSP.
Then he can’t finish a guy that’s only been finished twice in his career, wins a decision against non-zuffa hero Dan Henderson in which he mounts him 6 times in 4 rounds, and there are rumors that he is going to the UFC, and he’s a boring guy who sucks.
by Phildo on May 18, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Rec
I was going to mention the same thing. Once upon a time Jake deserved the boring fighter tag, but he has two decisions in his last ten fights over four years. That’s not a dull lay and pray fighter.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.
I find the ‘Shields is boring’ meme to be a great litmus test for gauging just how knowledgeable someone is about the sport outside of the Zuffa umbrella. Every time I read or hear someone breaking out the Jake is boring line, I automatically put them in the ‘has no idea what he is talking about’ category in the back of my mind.
I thought that Shields’ fight against Mayhem was incredibly boring. You can post all day about how that’s “hysterical” but claiming someone is boring is completely subjective. I haven’t seen all his fights. I though his fight with Dan was really good, and his fight with Daley was good too, but his fight with Mayhem was terrible. It was the definition of laynpray. Did he finish that fight? I thought that no but I could be wrong.
I have no problem saying that one of his fights was boring. Hell, every fighter has a few snoozers on their record. I personally enjoyed the tactical battle in the Mayhem fight, but I can understand how not everyone enjoys watching positional grappling. If you think the Mayhem fight was boring, that is perfectly reasonable.
What I have a problem with is saying Jake is boring on the whole. A guy who has finished 80% of his last 10 opponent and mounted one of the greatest comebacks in the history of the sport in his last fight is not boring.
mounted one of the greatest comebacks in the history of the sport in his last fight is not boring.
let’s not go overboard now
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
How is that overboard?
Henderson had him KTFO in that first round yet by the end of the fight Jake was toying with him. I can’t think of many other fights where a guy got so close to being finished and then turned things completely around like that.
He got rocked, he wasn’t KTFO. I wouldn’t call a guy getting rocked at the beginning of the first round, then dominating the other 4 “one of the greatest comebacks in the history of the sport”. Well, I would if I was Gus Johnson.
Now, if Henderson had come back and subbed Shields out in the 5th after getting dom’d the whole fight, that would have been an incredible comeback. A fighter getting rocked and coming back from it isn’t that exceptional.
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
and just to add on
The first punch behind the ear staggered him, the 2nd one put him down. He looked out for a split second while he was still standing, but recovered enough to put his arms out to break his fall. I’m not even positive that counts as any kind of knockout, flash or otherwise. He got tagged twice in a spot that’s notorious for dropping people because they lose all equilibrium.
Hey Pete
R.I.P.
Yeah I hear you. The Mayhem fight he seemed only to do positional grappling though. I mean it was like he forgot there was anything else to the sport. And it may be ironic that a guy that finishes %80 of his fights is considered boring, I suppose that a proven finisher can possibly be considered boring.
He went for a bunch of submissions in the Mayhem fight. He didn’t get particularly close to finishing any of them, but he went for them nonetheless.
The closest submission
was the one Mayhem had.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 19, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah
Now if there was only a way to shitlist people as to not see what they type ever again. That would be a good right click menu to add. Because once I put them in the ‘no idea what he is talking about’ category, do I ever want to hear anything they ever have to say, ever again? No
I’d rather watch one side of a two-way argument any day
by Ryan Tomasetti on May 19, 2010 7:17 AM EDT up reply actions
This exactly..
they deny themselves reality when you say jake shields is boring.. how about the other fighters are boring for looking like fishes out of water when he gets them on their back.
He’s not only using excellent jiu jitsu.. excellent wrestling.. but he actually shows us technique we might not of ever see before. He takes it to the next level.. and people complain..
he's the poster boy for cross-promotion?
This is news to me. When did this come about? Can you point me to some blog posts or articles stating he’s gotta fight GSP before the Hendo fight?
His recent record has improved quite a lot in terms of getting the submission win. His overall record puts him at one of the highest decision winners in the history of MMA. I looked it up not too long ago, and of fighters with more than like… 10 fights, he’s #5 or so ALL TIME amongst decision win percentage – and thats WITH him having finished a bunch of people recently.
You can argue whether or not you think he’s boring til the cows come home, viewers turned off his match with Miller – remember those articles about the ratings dropping during his fight? Meme, casual fan, what have you, there’s a lot of people who do not want to watch him.
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by Cory Braiterman on May 19, 2010 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions
They are back during the elite xc days, I’m not going back that far to find stuff. When he was the Elite XC WW champ he was loved by the zuffa haters.
As for people changing the channel, lots of people turned off the Arlovski Nelson fight also, there are lots of things that go into that.
I’m not saying that the Mayhem fight was the best fight ever, but to judge his whole career by one fight (or to call the Hendo fight boring) is moronic.
also, you must be a true hardcore fan to have watched all his rumble on the rock and shooto decisions to be basing your views on shields on those fights.
Compared to the 4 submissions, 1tko, and 2 decisions that have been on showtime and cbs.
I actually have the Rumble on the Rock DVD
Bought that 3-pack on Woot.com a few months ago. Lotta great fights on them. I was just watching the disc with the Silva/Okami fight the other day.
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on May 19, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Lay on top wrestling is to MMA what the trap is to MMA
It may get you some wins but it’s not going to go over well with the majority of fans. While I’ll take NOTHING away from Mo’s recent victory it was boring to watch because he simply doesn’t have any transition game at all. I don’t remember him ever progressing from full guard to even half guard once and it wasn’t for lack of trying. To play devil’s advocate though Gegard’s game from his back prevented him from very many successful sweeps.
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
to hockey i'm assuming?
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on May 18, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
LMAO Yes I meant the NHL/Hockey, damnit I should have proofread........thanks for pointing that out
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
I agree 100%
I think the article (wihch I have not read, I’m speaking about the bit that is quoted) focuses on the aspect of Wrestling as entertaining MMA. It isnt. it’s effective sure, but no one likes a 1-0 or 2-1 hockey game, and no one likes a boring wrestling match.
I think a takedown is an effective means of defence, however if you do not produce offence from the position, fighters should be stood back up. Were there not penalties in Pride for this? A yellow card for not producing action?
Too many wrestlers just go for a takedown without effectively producing some GnP or Submissions because it looks good to the judges. No one says you cant stand back up and go for the takedown and keep trying again.
Yeah personally I think PRIDE had the best set of rules.
Ditch the cage, knees on the ground are fine, yellow card for “stalling” (10% of your purse) and I think the entertainment of fights improve quite a bit without really giving any sort of style any type of advantage. Of course it’ll never happen but I can dream.
Check out my pic a day for a year project-
Life Through My Lens
mostly agree
but I wouldn’t go back to the ring. You could make a ring shaped cage if you wanted to make it easier to corner people, but a ring is a mess when you get people tangled up in the ropes, have to reset to the middle etc. Cage allows for fewer ref interventions.
I consider myself a softcore fan.
I do love the wrestling aspect in MMA, but I think the unified rules favor it just a little too much, and so does the UFC. The trend of positionally dominant wrestling is making itself felt across all divisions, though the WW showcase it the best. Strong wrestlers get points for a takedown (acceptable) but the rules on what strikes are allowed while on the ground also gives them a safety I don’t think they should have.
One doesn't, or at the very least shouldn't, "get points" for a takedown
Rounds aren’t scored that way. Getting takedowns is an element of effective grappling. Effective grappling is an element of being awarded a round.
The sooner everyone, judges included, starts looking at rounds less like a scoreboard and more like a balance, the better off we will all be when considering effective techniques in the sport.
Of the three primary disciplines in mixed martial arts, wrestling is by far my least favorite. By extension, wrestlers tend to be my least favorite fighters. There are some exceptions — I love cardio freaks like GSP and Diego who never seem to tire — but for the most part I find archetypal MMA wrestlers like John Fitch and Chael Sonnen incredibly boring to watch, even when they are dominating.
I think a great many MMA fans, especially “casuals” share the same bias, which means that the rising dominance of wrestlers (if such a trend exists) creates a real problem for MMA promoters. This is a country with a rich tradition of high school and collegiate wrestling. If a significant number of people wanted to watch it for fun, someone would have found a way to market it by now.
I have often wondered whether American MMA rules (cage, knee limitations, etc) favor top-control wrestlers, and whether it might at some point make sense to tweak those rules to promote a more fan friendly style of fighting. In Pride, for instance, strikers and BJJ guys seemed to fare better.
None of this is to say that wrestlers aren’t amazing athletes. They are. But too often that athletic talent doesn’t translate into a particularly engaging entertainment product.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
PRIDE didn’t have the cage, so a wrestler couldn’t use it to control his opponent. Also, knees to the head punish a lazy double-leg. Elbows certainly help the guy on top, too. However, I don’t favor watering down the product to accommodate the masses.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 18, 2010 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I don’t see it as watering it down, so much as tweaking the competitive balance. Soccer kicks and knees, for instance, aren’t evidence of a watered down product.
I take my cues from my favorite sport — American professional football — the growth and success of which can be largely attributed to a very progressive approach to rules and styles of play.
Year to year, the game is constantly being tweaked by often significant rule changes that favor offense over defense, passing over rushing, etc. These changes aren’t always great, but the culture of change allows the sport to truly grow and evolve with its fanbase, unlike, say, the moribund baseball, which will ride its archaic rulebook right to the grave.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on May 18, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Lines like this scare me:
tweak those rules to promote a more fan friendly style of fighting
I think there should be as few rules as possible. I want knees to the ground, too, as a counter to lazy wrestling (soccer kicks…meh). Let the actual events determine what’s the best style. I don’t want to change the rule set to appease the stand’n’bang crowd.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 18, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess my point is that, regardless of what you do, rules are going to have an impact on the nature of the product in the cage (or ring, or whatever). An MMA match isn’t a fight, it’s a sporting contest, and the rules of that sporting contest help to determine not only the outcome, but who has the advantage, and how the contest is going to play out.
Top control wrestlers, for instance, may not have done so well in UFC 1, which had far, far fewer rules than any current MMA promotion, and by the nature of its rule-set (or lack thereof) strongly favored finishers (tournament format, no real scoring to speak of, etc).
If you accept the fact that rules help to determine both outcomes and styles of play, it makes more sense to consider tweaking them if you (promoter, fanbase, etc) are disappointed with the outcomes and the styles of play.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on May 18, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Top control wrestlers, for instance, may not have done so well in UFC 1, which had far, far fewer rules than any current MMA promotion, and by the nature of its rule-set (or lack thereof) strongly favored finishers (tournament format, no real scoring to speak of, etc).
I completely disagree.
Before showing up in the UFC/Pride, elite wrestlers like Kevin Randleman, Mark Kerr, and Tom Erickson laid waste to the the Brazilian value tudo scene. They absolutely mauled people in the anything goes environment.
Fair enough
My MMA history admittedly isn’t the greatest. I was basing my comment more on an anecdotal observation that the top fighters in Pride tended to be more striking and submission guys (Cro Cop, Shogun, Wand, Nog(s), etc.)
The underlying point still stands though. Rules do have an impact on the competitive balance and style of play. If the current rule-set favors a boring, style of play or tips the competitive balance in favor of a specific discipline (and one that also happens to be not terribly fan friendly) it’s worth considering tweaking those rules.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
read this
MMA History X: The Reign of the Wrestlers and you’ll get to see (via video) just how dominating the early wrestlers were when they could headbutt, knee to the head and elbow at will. It was a sight to behold.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I'll check it out, thanks
And honestly, if the rules encouraged/allowed wrestlers to finish more dramatically and effectively, I’d probably like watching wrestlers more.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
1. Knees are a huge advantage for wrestlers. In fact, its probably their biggest weapon. They used to be able to finish fights from NorthSouth, this is no longer the case.
2. The rules have been changed several times to make more exciting fights, or what you would refer to as “watering down the product to accommodate the masses.” Judges, standups, these are all things that aren’t simply inherit in the sport. Promoters added them to make fights more exciting.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Yeah, knees really do work both ways.
I figured judges and time limits were necessary to impose in order to prevent matches lasting for hours – something more inherent to the world of sports than anything else. I’m also not a huge fan of stand-ups. I get why they’re there, and as a fan I admit their usefulness, but also, if you can’t get out from under a wrestler, tough. Learn to stop them.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 19, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Add Knees to the head of a downed fighter
This would solve a lot of the “boring” fighter that wrestlers get. Wrestles and BJJ guys scramble into positions that they would get destroyed in if knees where allowed. The only rule that I would add to this is that you can not knee a guy with his head against the cage.
by Darren Watkins on May 19, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions
You could easily have a circle so far inside of the cage to show where Knees to teh head are allowed and aren’t. The hard part is getting this approved and educating the casual fans about knees.
by Darren Watkins on May 19, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
These are my feelings
I’ll post my old 4real story about this in the fanposts tomorrow
Inhale deep, like the words of my breath—I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death
by Anthony Pace on May 18, 2010 10:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll look forward to it
I’ve been toying with the idea of a fanpost on rules and competitive balance.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Monte Fisto on May 18, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t think that banning knees is an overall advantage for wrestlers. Wrestlers spend a lot of time in wrestling matches in positions where knees to the head would be devastating for their opponents. Since knees aren’t allowed, they end up shooting and trying to end the fight in guard or half guard, but knees will cause more front headlocks, more advancing positions on the ground, and more finishes, but not necessarily more trouble for wrestlers.
I appreciate wrestling
I can also appreciate that I need a fresh beer and some more chips, and that the Nate/Chael fight was the perfect time to walk to the fridge in the garage for a cold one, and rummage through the pantry for more salt and vinegar chips. Damn chips are like crack. What’s not like crack? Watching Sonnen stay in guard throwing little arm punches for 3 rounds.
by Ironbuddha on May 19, 2010 1:04 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Couldnt Disagree More
Schiavello’s piece is excellent, and addresses the most glaring issue with MMA today – lame ass wrestlers. Emphasis on the LAME…
“I fundamentally believe that fans who complain about wrestlers in MMA simply don’t understand the amount of technique involved.”
Couldnt disagree more with this statement. I fully respect the technique, strength, smarts, and posturing involved with controlling an opponent and the physiology that prevents said opponent from doing anything but look like a dying fish on the ground when pinned by a GSP, Sonnen, Maynard, or familiar – but that’s not Schiavello’s point.
No one is saying wrestlers aren’t talented. No one is saying wrestlers aren’t athletic. No one is saying wrestlers don’t possess the same championship spirit as Muay Thai, Sambo, Judo, or Boxing practitioners… WERE JUST SAYING ITS BORING!!!!
Wrestling = winning, but striking = entertainment, and thats what were talking about at the end of the day, MMA is not just sport, its spectator sport, and in order to attract more spectators one must put on something worthy of a spectacle. Pure wrestlers simply aren’t that spectacular to the average (and not so average) fan, and if you’re telling me you would rather see GSP sit on Dan Hardy for 25 minutes over Shane Carwin Dropping Mir with big hands in the first 3 minutes, you’re either kidding yourself or scrambling for a topic to write about.
KOs are the king of fight sports – always have been, always will be. Simple as that…
"Every day gets better for me, you know what I'm saying? If anyone has a chance to beat me, it was yesterday..." - Kevin Ferguson
by bloodsportmmadotcom on May 19, 2010 1:34 AM EDT reply actions
yeah, are you a European who cant stop a takedown attempt...
if so, I understand where youre coming from…
by Roll NControl on May 19, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously… if you want to compete at a high level in this sport, you need to understand the dominating force that is high-level wrestling.
Drill the scrambles, drill takedown defense, and learn how to get off your back.
by Kyle Duquette on May 19, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
If you dont like the ground game then start a promotion that is a hybrid of standup fighters. I am sure if so many people like you hate wrestling so much that you could make some big money doing that.
by Darren Watkins on May 19, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
North Americans are way ahead of the curve when it comes to wrestling (Brock, Couture, cain, koschek, GSP, etc…)
The Brazilians are way ahead of the curve when it comes to striking (Anderson Silva, jose aldo, Vitor Belfort, Machida, Shogun, DOs Santos, etc…)
Those gaps will close just like the BJJ gaps closed.
by mmalogic on May 19, 2010 2:08 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Fighters with little skills are boring, it doesn't matter what style they represent.
Guys that think that they know how to strike bore the shit out of me, or mediocre BJJ guys that don’t know how to mount an offense off their back, mediocre wrestlers that once they take somebody down they look like a monkey with a microscope.
"...ride life straight to perfect laughter,
it's the only good fight there is."
Hating wrestling in MMA is not about disrespecting the technique.
It’s just like watching a boxer use only his footwork. Lay n Pray wrestling like Lawal’s performance against Mousasi is exactly like that. Sure you can take him down, but if you don’t/can’t finish him by use of takedown (learn a freaking submission, douchewads) you still get the win because apparantly lying on top means you’re winning the fight.
Again the Mousasi fight to illustrate: Mousasi was succesfully striking from the ground, Lawal didn’t do anything but lay on top. First thing that comes to mind with me is: Lawal is going to win this one, because some arbitrary oppinion said that takedowns are worth a shitload of points even if they don’t make the fight come any closer to finishing.
Judges scorecards are NOT meant as a ‘legit’ way of winning, though they can be. They’re meant to keep the bouts at a respectable length in wich the fight stays interesting and the fighters are spared lasting injury. Wrestlers take advantage of this by using ONLY their wrestling (weak or no GnP, complete lack of submission knowledge).
Takedowns are overrated as they don’t finish fights and should be scored according to the result. Worst to best case scenario: Stuffed/Reversed/Escaped, Guard, half guard, side/full mount, back mount. Any effective GnP will count for itself. But this system would force wrestlers to get their points somewhere BEYOND lay n pray and it would also help prevent lame wins because one guy had a single sloppy takedown he didn’t or couldn’t capitalize off of.
Takedowns are grossly overrated, wrestling is like footwork… not like striking or submitting.
So are you saying guys that box and dont knock out their opponent are boring too? They just use better boxing to keep the guy away but dont finish them so they are boring? What are people watching when they watch MMA, that they cant stand the ground game. GO LEARN THE GROUND GAME. Go wrestle somebody that knows what they are doing. You might get a little more respect for fighters. If you hate what Lawal did to Mousasi then you hate all wrestling.
by Darren Watkins on May 19, 2010 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Not liking top-control wrestling and not liking the ground game are two different things.
I love watching talented BJJ guys work on the ground from the top and bottom, because they’re always a threat to finish quickly and artfully. I hate watching wrestlers lay in their opponent’s guards for minutes at a time throwing ineffective punches and not improving their position.
Again, this isn’t a question of wrestlers’ skill, heart or athletic ability. All are top notch. It is a question of whether a) there is an increasing dominance of top-control wrestlers in the sport b) whether that harms the sport’s entertainment value and c) whether promotions should try to do anything about it.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
I agree, it’s not that wrestling is bad, it’s just the judging of wrestling is bad.
If a wrestler takes someone down and throws half hearted punches and the judges reward this, other wrestlers look at it and think “hmm i could do that too” and so they do.
I believe in this situation, say wrestler takes down jiu jitsu guy. Jiu jitsu guy controls him from bottom and takes no damage but does nothing, BJJ guy should lose that round. Even in grappling a takedown is awarded 2 pts. BUT if the jiu jitsu guy threatens a sweep or sub that comes close it should be a draw or he should even win that round, again based off grappling where you get 1pt for “advantages”. Let’s please stop counting crappy arm punches that don’t hurt
I think even people who wrestle or like wrestling should agree with me that if wrestlers were encouraged by the scoring system to be more aggressive we’d see more exciting and powerful ground and pound. Right now it’s get a takedown and then you can just be like “mehh..I’m got this round”.
by IpullguardIRL on May 19, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
to add on to what I said, it should be made clear that weak punches from top control are not counted. It’s clear that people only throw these to avoid a standup. It creates the illusion of activity. For god sakes throw a power strike, or posture up and try to pass.
by IpullguardIRL on May 19, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I see your point
I agree that when a guy gets a takedown and then lays in the guard and randomly throws punches it can be boring. I guess I take the stance of blaming the guy that got taken down. Yes rewarding guys who do nothing on top is not very entertaining and will not help MMA grow as a spectator sport.
So how do you judge when a fighers punches are doing not damage or are just bitch punches? where do you draw the line for the ref to figure this out? I like have less rules and letting the fighters figure out how they want to fight. What about if two guys who just stand and throw pussy punches on their feat b/c they have weak boxing, are we going to start putting them on the ground since nothing is changing?
Also as stated above if knees to the head of a ground fighter were allowed things would change very quickly in MMA. You could not have guys shooting in and stop in the north south positions, scrambling on the ground can be very dangerous then. A good example of this is when Aoki fought Hayato Sakurai, he wanted to get the fight on the ground and lost a scramble and got fucked up by some knees to the head. This would great improve what a wrestle can do and reward them for moving past the guard.
How would you judge wrestling in MMA?
by Darren Watkins on May 19, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
It would be partially subjective...
but you would basically judge punches on the ground the same way you judge punches standing up, it falls on the judge to make a determination if it was weak or powerful.
However weak punches on the ground should be given less weight than say jabs. Even though a jab is a “weaker” punch, it still has physics behind it in that you use your hips and turn your body. A punch from broken posture in guard has no such mechanical advantage behind it and therefore is less damaging than a weak jab. We should also note that weak jabs don’t happen often because it’s like asking the other guy to counter with a hard straight.
However pitter patter punches from guard happen frequently and it really needs to be discounted more in judging.
by IpullguardIRL on May 19, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
As a former amateur wrestler,
I still think wrestling is the least entertaining aspect of MMA, period.
GO SPURS GO!!!
American Wreslting is not stalling the progress MMA!
If anything it is helping evolve the sport. More fighters today have well-rounded ground games and that is because they are adapting to the influx of high level wreslters entering into the mma scene.
"If your going to come on then come on!" - Harold Howard
Wrassling is Jiu Jitsu without submissions.
The statistics for that fight do not lie.
[Expletive] the fans? [Expletive] King Mo.
by jj420 on May 19, 2010 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
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