The Media Divide: The Knowledge Gap Between MMA Journalists and Fans
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 2:29 PM EDT
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Promoted from the FanPosts by Kid Nate
Mixed Martial Arts has a demanding and dynamic fanbase. That's not just a reflection on the excitement the sport generates, the pure visceral rush that hits you like a ton of bricks when you watch a fight. It's not even a product of how open and engaging the fighters are on Facebook and Twitter. No, MMA has an active and vocal fanbase due to necessity.
It wasn't that many years ago that following the sport of MMA was arduous and ludicrously difficult. Fights simply weren't available to most people. The UFC wasn't on PPV for most cable subscribers, there was no Youtube for Indy fights, and fights from Japan had to be shipped on VHS from, well, Japan. This resulted in something interesting: the MMA fans that followed the sport closely were hardcore with a capital "H." Ridiculously so. You won't find a more knowledgeable and educated fanbase anywhere in the world. And that, more than anything, explains the frustration and disdain many feel for MMA's professional journalists.
The fact is, the knowledge gap between the fans they serve and many journalists is enormous. How many of the reporters that cover the sport, event after event, really know much about the industry and its history? A handful? Ten? In some ways it's handy to see things from an outsiders point of view. After all, it's easy to miss something significant when you are too close to something to step back and see the big picture. Yet continuing ignorance also allows promoters to spin tales and rewrite history in any way they choose.
Take for example, this week's Mailbag from Yahoo scribe Kevin Iole. Iole, for those not in the know, is the dean of mixed martial arts reporters. A Dana White favorite, the long time boxing reporter is almost always the first reporter called on at the post fight press conference. Iole is a solid reporter and is a good source for the latest information regarding the UFC. I'm not putting him down at all, because in that role he is very good and a useful resource. But his unfamiliarity with the history of MMA often can turn an informational interview into an exercise in transcription.
The hot issue of the day is Dana White's immediate firing of Paul Daley after an ill advised cheap shot at UFC 113. You know the story, I won't belabor it here. White was attempting to draw a distinction between the UFC and his rivals at Strikeforce who allowed fighters to stay with the company after their wild brawl in Nashville. White told Iole that firing fighters that get out of hand is par for the course for the world's most successful MMA company.
“I cut Nick Diaz after he was fighting [Joe Riggs in an emergency room] at the hospital [in Las Vegas following a Feb. 4, 2006, fight]. People are sick and dying and you can’t be in the hospital fighting. I cut the guy even though I know he’s a very good fighter. But the thing with Jake Shields happened because someone wasn’t in control of the cage and let Mayhem in where he didn’t belong. That caused everything else.”
This sounds great doesn't it? It paints the picture of a company firmly in control of its fighters, handing down punishments to maintain order. The problem, of course, is that it is entirely untrue. Diaz wasn't cut after his fight with Riggs in the hospital. He was immediately booked into a high profile fight with Sean Sherk. When Diaz was eventually let go after the Sherk fight it was because he had lost three in a row, not for any disciplinary reason. That much was clear just months later when the UFC brought Diaz back on four days notice to replace Thiago Alves in a fight with Josh Neer after Alves dropped out of the fight for medical reasons.
In its own right this is a very minor mistake. But it's emblematic of the UFC's ability to influence the media narrative with patently false information. Imagine a football coach telling a sceptical media a falsehood like that? The problem is that the media is ignorant (although perhaps not willfully so) and they expect the fans to be so too.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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It is true..
I mean to be a fan before was hard.
I actually just found a cache of my only remaining tapes from before people started slinging burned DVDs, and it brought back memories of all the crap we had to put up with back then.
A show would happen in Japan, you’d be excited for it, wait for your tape trader to get it, send him a money order, wait another week, then maybe it’ll be there!
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
What’s funny was how hard it was to get UFC shows for a period. Harder than Japan, because I think more people in big cities had access to Japanese grocery shows than people had access to someone with a Dish.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
That felt very much like a “…back in my day…” moment.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Which is funny..
Because I remember renting UFC1 at fucking Major Video in Warwick, RI when I was a kid and getting hooked.
Like getting the old, unsanctioned crazy shows as a child, but when I was a teen finding those UFC shows was a bitch yeah.
Head Kick Legend
Twitter @HeadKickLegend
I didn't get a chance to watch the first few UFC's on PPV...
Because I lived way out in the country(Princeton, AR) and didn’t have cable, only an antenna that picked up 3 channels. But finding UFC 1-7 on tape wasn’t really as hard as some people I’ve spoken to claim that it was.
Princeton, Arkansas had a total of 30 people living there back in the mid 90’s and there was only one small grocery store that was more of a one-stop hunting shop. But the coolest thing about living in such a small, country town was the video selection at the video store.
I was able to catch each UFC event around a month after they originally aired on PPV. I caught 1-7 and then for some reason the little store stopped carrying the videos. I then had to drive 20 miles to the next small town (Sparkman) and there I was able to catch the rest of the UFC’s all the way up to 22. I eventually found some new friends thru an internet chat room that had bootlegs of the UFC that were somehow better quality than the VHS tapes I’d rent from both small grocery stores.
Point is, If I can find basically UFC 1-22 on tape at a small store in one of the smallest towns in Arkansas, and find them within one month of them being released, it couldn’t have been that hard to find them in the big cities, during the mid to late 90’s.
When I lived in Irmo, SC I remember the local video store being stocked with a huge selection of pro wrestling and MMA videos. Moving to Atlanta and DC saw the options dwindle dramatically.
Of course UFC 1-22 were not especially difficult. But, for example, you waited more than a year from the event date to have the option to watch UFC 20 on home video… How did you do looking for UFC 23? :)
by Jonathan Snowden on May 14, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
To save everyone the trouble of quickly going to fight finder here’s the link.
And what do you know, everything adds up…
watchkalibrun.com
by Zak Woods on May 13, 2010 11:48 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I love this
not because I don’t think Daley deserved to get harshly punished, he certainly did. It’s awful to be this inconsistant with disciplinary actions. Babalu and compared to BJ, for instance.
It becomes even more awful when you see the media lied to in order to justify an already horrible position. Dana knows he lied about it, so it’s not like some honest mistake. Why lie? Obviously there is some motive.
You’re also right about how being a “HC” fan can be a double edged sword. I can’t tell you how many times my “HC” colored glasses have gotten in the way of reality, I have to much emotion invested to believe CroCop is done. Or that Igor isn’t one of the greatest HWs of all time (He is, by the way).
Another amazing piece. Thanks, Jonathan.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
For what it's worth
Diaz did get cut after the Riggs hospital brawl. It wasn’t immediately after, but it was afer.
Interesting point
It’s not really a lie, since he did get cut after the brawl. It’s just misleading.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 13, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha. It is true that his contract expired at some point after the Riggs brawl. There’s the inconvenient fact of him fighting again between those two points in time though to negate causation.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
hahaha
“inconvenient”
Priceless use of that word.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 13, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
It is very misleading, that is for sure.
I do recall Dana mentioning the behavior of Nick Diaz as a reason for him not being part of the UFC before though. Reporters have asked him about Diaz a number of times and this was well before the brawl.
Reminds me of Clinton
‘When I was govenor of Arkansas, I spent more money on education every year…’ He actually cut the budget, but hey if you spend $20 the first year and $18 the next you did spend more money.
Diaz was never cut by the UFC.
The Gracie’s were starting a promotion in CA. He chose not to re-sign with the UFC in order to fight with the new Gracie organization. The Gracie organization never panned out so he signed with Pride and moved on.
Well, he was cut after 3 losses in a row to(in order) Sanchez, Riggs and Sherk
But was brought back as a replacement against Josh Neer at UFC 62 which he won easily and then UFC 65 a TKO against Tibau. He supposedly had 2 more fights on his contract and what happened after is a bit of a mystery.
So he was cut and then brought back 3 months later?
And he had 2 fights left on his contract and the UFC just let him go to Pride after winning two in a row? That seems right since the UFC usually lets people just walk away from contracts
Yes Diaz was cut and then brought back a couple of months later. He was dropped after the Sherk fight but was brought back as a late replacement to fight Josh Neer at UFC 62. The UFC was wanting him to stay and promised him another fight after the Tibau fight but he chose to sign with the doomed Gracie league instead. That is where the confusion in this is because no one seems to know what contract (if any) he was under for the Tibau fight but yes he was cut after the Sherk fight because he lost three in a row.
Thanks for clearing that up
I became a monstrous fan of MMA about 4 years ago and only started reporting on the sport last September, so I totally bought Iole’s mailbag hook, line and sinker.
I appreciate that you won’t let people rewrite history. Grats. It also gives me motivation to keep learning more about the history of the sport.
follow me twitter.com/GotaHemmi
by Brian Hemminger on May 13, 2010 11:54 AM EDT reply actions
Dana’s notorious for this, because I bet he really believes that’s the way it went down. That being said, as you pointed out, there are a handful of journalists that would have not let that quote run in an article without explaining that it was factually wrong (like Meltzer). After the Alves fight he was back in the UFC until the whole Gracie FC thing went down.
Mr Snowden, this might not be something you’d feel comfortable answering, which is fine, but I thought I’d ask anyway….do you feel like Iole trades off some of his credibility to be closer to the action? I’m not going to say he’s Dana’s mouthpiece or anything, but contradicting or correcting Dana in an article might lead to some friction there. I’m not just talking journalistic credibility, I’m more referring to his cred as an MMA reporter. It just seems like it would be bad news bears for him to rebut Dana in any way, even if he knew Dana was wrong.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Chad Dukes and Lavar Arrington
Were talking about this sort of thing with football reporters, its just good to note that criticism and access are at odds in all sorts of sports journalism. Hell with the John Edwards cheating thing a lot of the media didn’t cover that because they were afraid it would affect access in the future.
I will say this: access is very important for some reporters. As we’ve seen with several high profile examples, access can be removed very quickly.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of which, what happened to Steve Cofield? Did the UFC PR people tell him to stay home from now on? Ever since he asked that question to Dana during a pre-fight press conference and got laughed at, he doesn’t seem to be doing any video interviews. I noticed Dana made a point to publicly bitchslap him in a later video for someone else, saying that Cofield is one of the front-running writers who doesn’t know much about MMA (in so many words).
Which is funny because I trust Cofield’s knowledge of MMA way more than I do Iole’s.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
You write:
“The fact is, the knowledge gap between the fans they serve and many journalists is enormous. How many of the reporters that cover the sport, event after event, really know much about the industry and its history? A handful? Ten?”
I’m not seeing the relationship between the sentence and the question. At a high level at least, the question seems to be undermining the point the sentence is trying to make — and that point is that there’s an “enormous” knowledge gap between the fans and the journalists. By undermining the credibility of the journalists, you’re implying that the knowledge gap isn’t that big, or at least is smaller than it otherwise would be if these guys knew their history. To be clear, the sentence and question aren’t logically inconsistent; their juxtaposition is simply puzzling.
Also I don’t understand the point of the Iole example, other than to demonstrate that Iole is a shill for the UFC or generally unknowledgeable. If the point is the latter, then the example is confusing since it undermines what I assumed to be the main point of this article. If the point is the former, the example doesn’t make sense given the topic of your post.
Perhaps the title of this article should instead be the “knowledge gap between some journalists in the know (such as Jonathon Snowden) and others” (or something a bit more snazzy).
I’m not sure I’m following you here. The gap I mention is between reporters and fans who follow the sport closely. I don’t think I am exceptional or anything. There are 100 fans on the UG who know more than I do I’m sure.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
See below. Many apologies. (Very) lazy reading on my part.
by The Darkness on May 13, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
The argument is that fans are more knowledgeable than reporters, not that reporters are more knowledgeable than fans. I think you misread this. Thus, the Iole story strengthens the argument.
by Graven Image on May 13, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I lose.
ha. quickly reading articles (and posts) will be the death of me. You’re right. I was feeling snarky and skimmed the article. You’re clearly right.
by The Darkness on May 13, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The darkness completely lost me! Great piece Jonathon. I don’t think of Kevin Iole as much more than a Dana White toadie, Yahoo sports doesn’t have a sports section entitled ‘MMA’, they have it headlined ‘UFC’, even if he’d realised White was not telling the truth about Nick Diaz, i doubt he’d have drawn attention to it. The problem is a lot of MMA journalists only starting covering the sport in the last 3, 4 years or so, when the major publications started showing an interest. Your last piece featured Anderson Silva vs Hayato Sakurai, i doubt guys like Iole, McNeil or Davies have a clue who Sakurai is, and i don’t think they’re interested enough in MMA to do enough research to find out!
I like that this came out simultaneously with Schiavello’s. Although this subject was merely an aside in his article.
I didn’t see that story. Do you have a link?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
The related text:
You get the feeling that the late Mas Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi or even Jigaro Kano would have enjoyed watching Fedor do as he does in the ring and act as he does outside of the ring. (For the record, if you’re wondering who the hell are any of the names I just mentioned, you should Google and really become better versed as to where and by whom the many styles of martial arts were developed. It’s a pet hate of mine that many so-called Mixed Martial Arts reporters do not know much at all of the origins of the various arts beyond a basic knowledge of Helio Gracie, Bruce Lee and old Kung Fu films).
There will be a new book
To help MMA fans at least learn some of the basics about all three of those guys. Neat that Schiavello was reading our minds back when we started the MMA Encyclopedia.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Oyama and Funakoshi are kind of minor figures in the development of MMA strategy and technique. But that’s a different argument.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
That was going to be my point. That’s some real elitist talk from Schiavello given that Oyama and Funakoshi aren’t exactly the highest level architects of the sport.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 13, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure it’s elitism considering his “pet-hate” is with other MMA professionals. Critical evaluation of competitors and co-professionals along with the want and expectation of those persons to be knowledgeable in matters concerning their job shouldn’t be seen as anything other than ordinary.
Mere competency has become the standard in many areas (commentating and otherwise), and I’m glad to see him as uncomfortable with that as I am.
Yeah...
I just mean…to act like someone who isn’t familiar with Oyama and Funakoshi is lacking in important MMA knowledge is just incorrect.
I’d rather people be able to understand and interpret fights, events, signings..etc with accuracy than have an encyclopedic knowledge of footnotes in the history of MMA.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 13, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
well
he’s kind of conflating Mixed Martial Arts with Martial Arts. Kano, Oyama and Funakoshi are all seminal figured in MA history but less so in MMA history. Although followers of each art have certainly made a big impact in MMA.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Remember when people pointed out that Dana blatantly lied regarding this season of TUF over whether Rich Franklin would take Tito’s place? Remember, too, how many said it wasn’t a big deal? Well, here’s Dana yet again lying to the fans, spinning the UFC’s history to make himself look better. Dana may have done a lot of good for the sport, but this is inexcusable. I love how he must think we’re all idiots.
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 13, 2010 12:45 PM EDT reply actions
I can’t stand when he rewrites history. Its like hes bending reality to fit his corporate whims, and fans accept that reality. Without even thinking twice. That’s the truly bad part, he thinks we are idiots, and a lot of the fans are indeed idiots.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Jonathan: I liked your book
But you know what I liked the best? The price! (Cue Bill Duke image of Nostradumbass driving through the showroom window of a Cadillac dealer).
It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.
Did we send you a free copy or did you steal it? Actually, if we sent you a copy and you didn’t buy five for family and friends, that is still stealing.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It was a gift -
- from a guy who knew I used to follow Pancrase. The real gift however, is actually having a friend who would know such a thing. Jealous?
It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.
by Jesse Holland on May 13, 2010 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve often wondered what it felt like to have a friend.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions
All friends ever do is drink your beer. They aren’t worth it.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I’m that friend.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
by Tim Burke on May 13, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
You monster!
If you're not watching Treme, you're a bad person.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on May 13, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
all the married guys should get a laugh out of this one.
by Bob Boblaw on May 13, 2010 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Really good point but I don’t believe that this is a MMA issue as much as a sport in general issue. Even in established sports with reporters who have been covering it for decades revisionist history happens and hardcore fans get bent out of shape over it. People like to think of White as horrible and Iole as a tool but White is pretty much just a typical promoter and Iole is a average sports journalist. What MMA is really missing on the mainstream level is the experts and investigative reporters who dig for juicy bits to make stories about. When a college football coach practices revisionist history in an interview then there will be guys who will write stories and discuss it on radio shows and even some tv experts who will talk about it in segments, of course that doesn’t stop the coach from doing it nor does it take away from the effectiveness of feeding that revision to casual fans but it does keep the more outrageous in check and allows the hardcores juicy bits to keep up with. Hardcore fans do eat this stuff up in every sport.
I think this will come in MMA with time and growth but even good sports news coverage is ratings driven. People don’t call out ball coaches on statements because it’s the right thing to do they call them out because controversial reporting is ratings gold for them. The juicy bits sell newspapers.
by who me on May 13, 2010 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This would be a great piece but it’s a horrible example to use to make it. You want to talk about the lack of knowledge among so called mma journalist i’m all for it but taking a quote from Dana and using it to bash Iole is weak. I’m sure you could find much better examples on alot of blogs to make the point of how little knowledge alot of people writting about mma have about the sport.
I thought it was a good example, especially considering that Iole is about as mainstream a sports reporter as MMA has right now. Guys writing articles on blogs and reporters who actually get paid to report on sports on major sites are two very different things.
This is true. I also used it because I read it yesterday. Really it is what prompted the article as opposed to searching the webs for ignorant stuff. I’m sure that would be a gold mine, some with my name on it too :)
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions
what you mean how Franklin McNeil said that dos Santos’ victory over Cro Cop shows how good of a ground game he has (paraphrasing)
watchkalibrun.com
I can top that
I once said on the radio that Mike Whitehead cut 80 lbs. in two weeks to make weight for the Randleman fight in St. Louis. Obviously I was confused.
It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.
by Jesse Holland on May 13, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunatly
the only thing Whitehead is cutting now is deals
by DayGeaux on May 13, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The feeling when you listen to an interview you did and hear yourself make a factual error is just completely awful.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 13, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
don't listen to your interviews!
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on May 13, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Given Mike Whitehead’s “second job” I don’t think cutting 80lbs would be that tough of a task.
"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff
by Earl Montclair on May 13, 2010 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
This is true not just in sports
but also in news, entertainment and economics.
welcome to journalism.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
For sure, I thought there were none.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on May 13, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My mistake. I’m not an easy guy to surprise, but you got me with this one.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on May 13, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm with ya
WAR AUSRTIAN SCHOOL lol
Google Ron Paul!
by CaDreamer on May 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are dozens of us!
Dozens!
by HarmlessNinja on May 14, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Almost everything you watch, hear or read about politics...
is full of bias and misleading statements. Politics are a far bigger deal than MMA
I don’t know what stuck out to me more in this article. The Media Divide or someone taking the time to point out another Dana lie. I’m going to focus on the Dana lie part because it bothers me more.
Did Dana get caught telling another lie. Yes he did. I have no problem with people pointing that out and taking him to task. I just wish there wasn’t one set of standards Dana White has to live up to and another set of standards for others. When Scott Coker and other promoters start getting held to the same standards as Dana White it will be evident that they all lie.
Just BE.
But Dana lies for the good of us fans...
You know…kinda like Jesus…
by Roll NControl on May 13, 2010 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
You are only fooling yourself
Isn’t every story about Coker on here speculating that he is lying even though they have yet to catch him in that lie?
I could have sworn I read an article yesterday with a between lines editorial citing the dynamics between Coker and M-1 Global. I could have swore it was written like his is Coker’s quote from the news conference and this is what I’m saying he is lying about. Ya, that Scott Coker gets off on easy street . . .
he’s been caught several times, no one seems to care. Heiron getting a title shot, the Fedor/Werdum fight being confirmed months ago, women’s tournaments to name a few.
Hieron turned down a title fight with zaromskis ...
they did have the fedor fight booked months ago then m-1 started wanting to renegotiate and not sure about womens tournaments. Still, compared to DW those are nothing even if they’re true … they aren’t.
by Johnnynumber5 on May 14, 2010 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions
If anything Jonathan was pointing out that most fans are more knowledgeable than most “journalists”
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 13, 2010 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If anything
Im too lazy to actualy think of anything reasonable to say because im high
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Do you have any idea what's going on?
"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff
by Earl Montclair on May 13, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
It is possible to be high without spreading idiocy
Please don’t promote negative stereotypes.
Carl Sagan would be rolling in his grave.
by Jahmelianenko on May 15, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Jesus most fans know more about the sport then the people judgeing it.
by Riley_96 on May 13, 2010 2:27 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
HI OHHHHHHHH!!!
"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff
by Earl Montclair on May 13, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
you and everone else on the planet…….except the retard judges
BTW BJ beat Edgar.
50-45 they must be rotating a joint at the judges booth.
Pain don't hurt...
I scored it for Machida
Rogan just conditioned every one to think every glancing hook shogun threw was a photon bomb exploding underneath machidas skin
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
I thought this conversation was finally settled.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
You guys are so smart you can watch a fight and make up your own mind about it, we stupid people have to rely on Joe Rogan :/ .
I'm a lover not a fighter
no it was a close fight
but the only reason the majority of people say it was Rua s because of his commentating. otherwise it’d be more evenly split
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
What abiout the people in the arena?
I agree it was close, but people in bars and in areas were on Shogun’s side.
If we are gonna say people were swayed, I think it had more to do with him finishing strong than anything.
Hopefully
With mma still on the rise, and younger fans who have been following mma for a while, and not transitioning from boxing, we will begin to see a influx of more knowledgable reporters. Ariel Helwani, Ben Fowlkes, Luke Thomas, ect…
Lole wasn’t scrupulous enough to verify Dana’s allegations. He screwed up as a journalist first.
I'm a lover not a fighter
it's Iole, capital i
I thought it was Lole for like years until recently so honest mistake.
follow me twitter.com/GotaHemmi
by Brian Hemminger on May 13, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah
I thought it was “Lole” also until I heard Bj Penn complaining about some guy named “Kevin AY-oli” in a video.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Hey Nate...
For the sake of the guys reading this article that were going to let Thiago Alves sleep with their sisters…please clear up the fact that Alves was FALSLEY diagnosed with hepatitis…
Now…onto the Knowledge Gap between MMA Journalists and Fans…
Talking about the Pitbull being falsely diagnosed with Hepatitis and not clearing up the truth is FAR WORSE than Dana White justifying why he does not think less of Jake Shields and Nate Diaz…
Do you think that anyone will ever do that $hit in the UFCNO! Dumbass Daley did, but did Josh reciprocate NO!! because he has something to lose…Title fight, spot as Head Coach on TuF show…
Those punks from Strikeforce had nothing to lose…yeah , the got bumped off the next card, but theyll fight again…
Coker is not in a position to take the proper disciplinary actions…
by Roll NControl on May 13, 2010 2:35 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Fixed this issue for lack of clarity. Not sure how this was resolved. Hep A is certainly not a major issue.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think that's (entirely) why
Dana is bending the truth about Diaz. There’s not nearly as much of a bureaucracy or protocol for disciplinary actions in the UFC as there is in other sports. The NFL, NBA, etc. have set fines, suspensions and whatever for specific infractions, but Dana probably makes most of it up as he goes.
It’s probably about 50% wanting to promote the brand and 50% him being a victim of subjectivity. After all, who remembers ANYTHING exactly as it happened?
I think a respectable journalist should at least make an attempt to verify their info before reporting it. A quick look at Wiki or Sherdog would have been all he needed.
I agree with who me though, this isn’t only a problem with MMA. I’ve seen this in all sports. People make mistake, people forget stuff and stuff gets twisted in people’s heads. It happens.
I remember Dana sighting Nick Diaz’s behavior as a major reason he was not in the UFC long before the brawl too. I don’t know if that matters at all.
You'll find that fans are more knowledgable than the media
in most, if not all sports, when it comes to the "H"ardcore fans. And I would also question the knowledge of some hardcore fans. Hardcore seems to be a term thrown around a lot, to encompass a whole variety of fans. For example, you have guys that know the early history of the sport and paid for bootlegs of the fights. You have those, like me, that watched the first couple UFCs on video tape in highschool as a novelty and pretty much didn’t bother with the sport until years later and are now playing catch-up, trying to watch whatever they can get their hands on. And you have the insecure fans who like to claim they were fans since UFC 1, but in reality they are generally new to the sport. A lot of these hardcore fans don’t know as much as they think they do – myself included. However, if the yardstick for measuring the knowledge gap is between a guy like Franklin McNeil and your so-called hardcore fan, then yeah, your assumptions are safe.
I think in a sport like football the percentage of fans “smarter” than the ex players and coaches who make up the bulk of the media is minuscule.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, MMA and hockey relate very well in terms of fans. Anyone who is actually interested in the NHL like myself understand the game, the systems, traps, diamond and box formations, face-off plays, forecheck, etc. far more than casual fans or reporters at times. Of course, hockey reporters are also few due to the less popularity of the sport.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Blackhawks, although my first love, The Colorado Avalanche, were booted in the first round.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I am an Avs fan too...
Now I am torn between Chicago and the Habs. Chicago is fun to watch and the Habs have been plying some good hockey (for the most part). I love the heart and the shot blocking, plus Halak has been playing out of his mind.
On the bright side I can cheer for both for one more round.
C'mon son
Is that not a maple leaf as your avatar?
It’s hard not to like Chicago though; it became pretty obvious last year that those young guns would push the team far this year.
by HarmlessNinja on May 14, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
For a football example,
Look at the labour negotiations that are going on right now.
Both sides have very different agendas and both side twist facts so they can be used to their advantage. They are using the media to their advantage while the media memebrs don’t always know what is here or there during the actual labour dispute. Reporters just report what they are told and they don’t always have the chance to consult laywers about legal ramifications.
As for the hardcore fans in football…
There will be fanatics and stat freaks that know more about the year to year history of a team or the league than say… Warren Sapp. Warren sap may know more abiut playin, but that doesn’t mean he will know more about the 1972 roster of the New York Giants.
There will be fanatics and stat freaks that know more about the year to year history of a team or the league than say… Warren Sapp. Warren sap may know more abiut playin, but that doesn’t mean he will know more about the 1972 roster of the New York Giants.
The question is, which type of knowledge is more relevant?
by HarmlessNinja on May 14, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes and no, pro football players and coaches spent their time actually playing football not learning obscure stats and historical facts about the sport. Imagine how much more you could learn about a sport if you didn’t have to waste time being good and actually having to play it. There are plenty of hardcore fans in every sport who live eat and breath the sport they follow and know it better than any former player (most of which actually have real lives outside the sport) ever could. Even when talking true network NFL experts they tend to look more like John Clayton than former players and coaches.
That is true of a certain kind of expert. In football and baseball coverage you get a lot more technical analysis of the actual game than we get in MMA. Those experts are almost all former players. The historical specialists and gossip mongers do still tend to be bespectacled nerds like me.
That’s part of what I like about BE. With the Judo Chops and Brookhouse there is significant discussion of what actually happens in the cage.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s that bespectacled nerd group that would catch something like White’s above statement, heck I doubt the vast majority of actual MMA fighters would of caught on to it. We talk about guys like Iole not knowing the sport well enough but the real lack of knowledge falls towards the industry side. Of course there are some reporters out there that don’t seem to understand either aspect (Gus Johnson, Franklin McNeil to name a few) but by and large it’s the industry side where these guys fall flat.
That is one of the things that really differentiates MMA’s hardcore following from most other sports, hardcore MMA fans love to talk about the business aspects and the people running the show as much as if not more than actually discussing the fights. That aspect of MMA fandom seems to mirror more the pro wrestling hardcore fandom as opposed to the ball sports hardcore fan base. I absolutely love that BE has both (and the Judo chops are great) but we all know which article topics get the most attention around here.
See! I told you guys I knew everything!
"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff
How does this illustrate the knowledge gap between journalists and fans?
If anything, it shows journalists don’t always know their shit.
GO SPURS GO!!!
Yes, that is what the article says.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
But, there are also plenty of great reporters who DO know their stuff, while there are also tons of fans who don’t.
GO SPURS GO!!!
Well, maybe you should have named it
The knowledge Gap between hardcore fans and Yahoo! MMA Journalists
Because the current one can be misleading…
GO SPURS GO!!!
Actually...
This is evident in Yahoo! staff for the most part. I won’t give them the lead pipe for saying some inaccurate things, but that’s what you get when you bring in solid journalists from other sports who “like” MMA enough to start covering it. It’s a process, and they’ll all get better.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
And as Dave Walsh will tell you and I’ve noticed quite a bit… MMA journalists try to delve into K-1 due to the crossover athletes, and their reporting on that is VERY inaccurate at times. Even small things like what a specific fighter’s style is in the K-1 ring is horribly inaccurate by many mainstream media members. It’s just not their cup of tea.
You really HAVE to be a fan of the sport and immerse yourself in those specific areas of a sport to learn it. I always liken it to my family business in the antique and collectible market. I actually enjoy going to auctions and finding bargains to turn profit. But the biggest hurdle for EVERYONE in the business is knowledge. And the best way to learn… make buys, research, and learn. Same applies here. Watch, research, learn.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just thinking about learning enough to be an antique dealer makes my head hurt. Brushing up on MMA history seems trifling in comparison.
by HarmlessNinja on May 14, 2010 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Take Iole as an example though: he’s been on the MMA beat for Yahoo since leaving the Review-Journal in early 2007. that’s three years. He covered the UFC for the paper before that. At what point do you just assume he knows what he knows?
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, three years isn’t a long time either… and he really has solely focused on the UFC. That’s really limiting him as a reporter in my mind.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he’s a good reporter. I don’t think he’s a good person to answer questions for a MMA mailbag unless the focus is strictly on what is happening at any given moment in the UFC. Does that make sense?
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. It makes perfect sense.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
In fairness,
He was answering questions about right now and simply quoted comments about the past, so he wasn’t stepping outside of your suggested boundries.
The problem here is that he didn’t validate or verify the information from his sources, which is journalism 101. I don’t have a problem with Iole,this is just a sloppy situation.
Dana spun reality to make it favvour him and Iole reported it as truth without double checking. They are both a little wrong, but nobody did anything too terrible on their own.
This isn’t fair. Iole also has a library of trivia to call on from his experience pumping out those fluff fighter profiles in the week before every UFC event for Yahoo. For example, if the subject is what kind of food Thiago Alves likes, or where Patrick Cote went to high school, Iole is prepared with an answer.
by smoogy2 on May 13, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This article is really pretty interesting from a psychological standpoint
It shows how some people are completely unable to shed the preconceived notion that they had got when they read the article title. The first 11 words completely overshadow the next 600. I almost kind of hope that they didn’t even read the article, because otherwise, it’s kind of depressing.
by jacksiwel on May 13, 2010 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
also interesting is the fact that
the article title doesnt say who is ahead in the gap. Its almost as if YOU had a notion.
Moisture is the essence of wetness.
Not trying to be a dick
I had the same notion you had about the point of the article. But then I read it, and realized I was wrong. To be fair, you said you were high earlier so you have an excuse.
Honestly
Had the same notion, then kept reading.
It was like, “Hey, fuck this gu- oh…yeah! right on!”
by Body Triangle on May 13, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW
I think is has to do more with how long you’ve been a fan,and how closely you follow the sport,than just being a fan.
I’ll give my own history for an example.I watched UFC 7 and Ultimate Ultimate 95 on VHS back in they first came out on in the mid-90’s.I was like,“Oh,that Ultimate Fighting stuff is pretty cool”,and could recognize that taking a guy down was probably a wise thing to do in a fight.But that was the extent of my familiarity with the sport.Fast forward to 2005,and the second season of TUF.My old man is watching Rashad Evans and crew,and I’m like,“Oh,isn’t this that Ultimate Fighting stuff?”.I started watching it just to have something to do……..and realized it was actually pretty entertaining.Started watching fights online,buying DVDs,watching PPVs,studying up on all things MMA,and pretty soon I was a full fleged MMA fanatic.Soon,I had a full collection of UFC and Pride DVDs,and was reading everything I could get my paws on.
And 5 years later,I am just now getting to the point where I feel my opinion is worth anything more than diddly squat.I actually know a little bit about the sport.You can ask me who fought who at UFC 31,and I can tell you off the top of my head.
I can’t imagine a guy coming in,and trying to just cover MMA right out of the shoot.After watching MMA for 6 months or so,I still thought Royce Gracie had a legit shot at beating Matt Hughes when they fought at UFC 60.I can’t imagine if I had been being paid to cover MMA,and I had written an article detailing why I thought Gracie had a chance in hell in that fight.
My point is-you can’t just be a sports writer,and cover MMA.It’s far too complex of a sport just to start writing about,unless you have followed it for a considerable amount of time.The same with commentary-look at Gus Johnson,for example.Honestly,I don’t even know if I’d feel comfortable covering MMA at this point with my level of knowledge,and I’d be willing to bet all the money in the world that I know more about MMA than Franklin McNeil.
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this is a very good point
and it’s one of the things that’s holding back the sport. Until we have a generation of MMA commentators and writers who understand the sport because they’ve been fans their whole lives we won’t have reached the zenith of the sport.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I think you make a great point here, that others have echoed. It just takes time. Most of us grow up playing sports and following them from childhood, which produces a deep familiarity with those sports, and leads to journalists who’ve been obsessed over the history, statistics and players of the game since they started collected baseball cards, to use one example. And of course journalists in baseball, hockey, basketball, football, American football still disagree on analysis quite often. The difference is that they at least have a deep base of knowledge and slow cooked opinions, developed over years. The same won’t be true for MMA until a little more time has passed. A good friend of mine’s 14 year old son knows damn near everything about the sport, and has been studying jujitsu since he was 9. Kids like him will bring a much deeper knowledge base to the next generation of journalists and commentators.
by Kwisatz Haderach on May 14, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny
The guy who got both the arena name and city location wrong on Fedor’s fight in November feels he can judge other journalists. Usually you actually have to prove you can pass Journalism 101 before you can teach the course.
LOL. If I remember right Iole was one of the other guys who called Chicago “Chicago.” Peas is a pod.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This guy went on and on in November because I identified Hoffman Estates, a suburb of Chicago, as Chicago. Interestingly enough, Nate, Luke and even Strikeforce themselves all identified the event as coming from “Chicago.”
I’m sure he will harp on this for a time and then go away. Nothing to see here.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Uhh… I don’t see the problem.
In Illinois, there is Chicago… and Downstate Illinois. Who gives a shit if someone said Chicago and not Hoffman Estates.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on May 13, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions
that guy’s going to be really upset when they announce that new york is getting the super bowl soon.
I made a crack about it...
and people got all upset with me.
I just made a joke when the arena was announced and everyone was calling it Chicago about how annoying it is to be a person from the burbs who, every time they came to their old home town in Michigan, would be asked “How are things in Chicago?” And there were a bunch of people upset with me.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on May 13, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
well, i don’t trust a god-damn word of anything that comes from mainstream sports media except game scores. how reporters get jobs is one of the most baffling things in life to me. i mean, it’s one thing for incompetent people to ass-kiss their way to more private jobs; but how the fuck do so many reporters, with every bit of their work being public, get away with not knowing shit about the shit they’re covering?
is it because they’re so passionate about putting pen to paper and forming sentences that they don’t even care what they’re writing about, as long as they’re writing?
by Stillberry on May 13, 2010 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
A sports reporter won’t always know everything about every sport and most news sources can afford specialists for every sport. they just make do with what they have.
How do they get their jobs? I know they had a reality show (Think: American Idol / America’s Next Top Model) for sports casters on a Canadian network.
In the internet age.....
…… it’s nearly impossible not to be held accountable for pretty much everything you say if you are a public figure. Soon as you say it, someone that hates you is probably googling just the opposite and posting whatever they find on some message board.
If what they find has legs the story WILL take off.
The truth will find everyone. If the truth don’t, google will.
One view from inside
The headline grabbed me, in part because I’ve been on the “wrong” side of that gap. I wasn’t exactly trading Pancrase tapes 10-15 years ago. My first encounter with hard-core MMA fans came about when Luke berated me for suggesting in USA TODAY’s general sports blog (then called Sports Scope, since replaced by Game On) that Bloody Elbow and other MMA blogs should simplify their lingo. Luke was probably right.
In any case, I made an effort to teach myself as much history as I could, especially as I eased into the role of MMA beat writer — among 5, 6, 12 other jobs. Luke listens to me now, and I’m actually kind of proud of that.
So there’s definitely a knowledge gap. I’m aware of it whenever I talk to Sergio, my former colleague at USA TODAY, who often interjects something like “Did you ever see the Coleman-Vovchanchyn fight?” into conversation. Why, no, I did not. If it ever came up, I’d have to go look it up.
But I don’t see this Iole example as proving the point. This is a possibly erroneous statement from Dana — we’re not sure, because Dana may claim, rightly or wrongly, that the hospital incident led to Diaz’s dismissal, if not immediately. And then Kevin didn’t think to challenge it. Frankly, I wouldn’t have thought to do so, either. The guy who spends the overwhelming majority of his professional time covering MMA and boxing didn’t think to flag it, so it’s less likely the guy who also covers soccer and Olympic sports would think to do it, either.
It’s one mistake — and an iffy one at that. If you want to say there’s a pattern here, fine, but you don’t show the pattern.
The difference between reporters and fans isn’t encyclopedic knowledge of the sport. It’s that the reporters’ job is to ask questions and report what they see. When I covered Olympic badminton, I was pretty sure most badminton fans knew more about what I was seeing than I did. But they weren’t in the arena in Beijing. I was. So it was my job to give the badminton fans (and a lot of casual fans) the information they couldn’t already see.
When you juggle as many tasks as reporters do, even if they’re covering just one sport, you’re not going to be perfect.
And, when you inevitably mess up, the people who call you out on it generally aren’t very nice.
It’s OK. Comes with the territory. I just wish this post had delivered what the headline promised.
by Beau Dure on May 13, 2010 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
You STILL haven’t seen Coleman-Vovchanchyn?! Here’s a link straight to the good part:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TStDf5nBoPk#t=1m27s
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
by Sergio Non on May 13, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Aaaaah! There’s no escape from Sergio’s Japanese MMA Warehouse of Facts and Links!
I can see what Reaser’s saying, though jumping on niche sports can sometimes earn you a weird reputation.
I have been blogging about chess these days, incidentally, though we just had a World Championship, so the timing’s good.
by Beau Dure on May 13, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seems like a logical crossover, given the popularity of the “MMA is a chessmatch” cliche.
Sergio Non,
MMA writer, USA TODAY
http://mma.usatoday.com
by Sergio Non on May 13, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sergio
You still owe me for the cab ride you wanted to “split” on the way back from Chicago-er, I mean uh, “Hoffman Estates.” Split usually means whole-to-halves. I was counting on that buck-twenty five for the vending machine. BTW, that seedy hotel needs to restock their vending machine in the bathroom. That bubble gum tastes like rubber.
It is not enough to succeed. Others must fail.
by Jesse Holland on May 14, 2010 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for your reply
I thank you for your response. You certainly have an interesting perspective. I don’t agree with your characterization of my post as “not very nice.” If anything, I gave Iole the benefit of the doubt. I worked in the White House for two years. I’ve seen every method there is of manipulating the media. Here is what I see happening:
Dana White is looking to distinguish his brand from Strikeforce, which had an unfortunate brawl at the end of their recent card in Nashville. Karma is unpredictable though, and UFC 113 happened to have an uncharacteristic post fight attack by Paul Daley. This makes White’s case a bit more difficult. He still needs to differentiate his promotion from Strikeforce, so he spins this tale of Nick Diaz’s UFC demise.
Here’s the problem: Diaz fought three more times in 2006 for the UFC before going on to fight Takanori Gomi for Pride. Look, Diaz was my favorite fighter in the UFC and I was disappointed to see him go. I’ve talked about him and his UFC history with plenty of people in the industry over the years. I have literally never heard anyone say that the Riggs fight led to his departure.
That quote was designed to push the current narrative of Strikeforce being home to lawless and uncontrollable fighters and weak leadership. White knew he could pass it on through Iole despite the fact that almost any fan (at least in my circle that I know well) could have immediately called bullshit on it.
Was I expecting too much of Yahoo to assure that they looked over Diaz’s record before passing on that story? Here’s something interesting I noticed when I was trying to keep it above the belt: someone inserted the date of the Riggs fight. That indicated they looked over Diaz’s record, as I doubt they knew exactly when this fight happened in 2006. Does that mean this “mistake” was a bit more willful?
I agree with your contention that a reporter is there to observe and record what they see. But is that valuable to fans of the sport when the reporter doesn’t have the base of knowledge to understand what they are seeing? Take badminton for example. Most of us don’t know much about it, so your reporting can be interesting and informative as we all enter this unknown world together. A different standard, however, generally applies to reporters covering sports with a larger audience. Do you agree?
I think we both know that it would be fairly easy to find a dozen or more of these kinds of mistakes and subtle rewrites of history. There has even been a phrase coined to describe this manipulation: The Zuffa Myth. I don’t think I need to walk anyone here through it. There was a thread just days ago about MMA Live and the analysts there and we’ve all seen it countless times. Iole’s was just an example I noted this week. What makes it stand out is that it DOESN’T stand out. It’s par for the course, which is why, as I explained, the hardcore fans don’t have much use for many of MMA’s journalists.
I’ve spent plenty of time before and after UFC events helping walk the local newspaper guy through the sport. I understand the challenges a reporter faces. But once you take on the MMA beat, I think learning the sport’s history becomes a necessity. I would expect a reporter covering the NFL to understand the seismic shift in the passing game in the 1980’s and a baseball reporter to be able to tell me about Curt Flood. When MMA reporters can meet these same standards, then posts like this will disappear.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I didn’t specifically mean you in terms of the “not very nice” calling-out. Your post is similar to what reporters often hear in that any mistake we make can be held against us. Your post is dissimilar from most media criticism in that it doesn’t include the word “moron.” Or the wonderfully ironic “morron” or “moran.”
I see what you’re saying about what White trying to demonstrate — and perhaps exaggerate — a difference between the UFC and Strikeforce with the Diaz example. I just don’t think Iole’s use of the White quote is particularly egregious. If anything, it’s less a demonstration of ignorance as it is a tendency among many journalists — in sports, politics or anything else — not to challenge authority figures with any persistence. I’m far more irritated when some political talking-head gets an unchallenged quote in the paper than I am when White’s recall of Diaz’s release is a little fuzzy.
So if, as you say, there are other examples, then I think those other examples would be better for the case you’re making. I could probably find a few myself.
Related: One aspect of MMA coverage I’ve found different from other sports is the promotional politics. That sometimes manifests itself on the most mundane levels — when I’m doing research on fighters’ records, I can’t rely on the promotion because they won’t give details on fights that took place outside that promotion. That’s not an issue in, say, Major League Soccer, where they’ll usually give you at some sort of information about a player’s performance with other clubs.
It also manifests itself in the sense that a lot of journalists have a hard time balancing coverage of the different promotions. Every organization in every sport, of course, wants more coverage. But it gets trickier with several organizations in the same sport. It creates a sense of “inside” and “outside” that can make reporters very uncomfortable. I can’t speak for Kevin, of course, though it’d be interesting to see his response to all this. But from my perspective, I’m uneasy when, say, Sherdog is denied UFC credentials, raising the perception that those of us on the “inside” are compromised. (I’m comfortable talking about that. Ask me about the “UFC” label instead of “MMA,” and I’ll clam up very quickly.)
In some respects, covering the sport was easier when I knew less about it!
Less related: The “Zuffa myth,” to me, has become a bit like the “revelation” that the Monkees didn’t play their own instruments. It was technically true at the beginning, when Michael Nesmith and Peter Tork basically had their guitars, bass and organ taken out of their hands at the early studio sessions. But they could actually play, they played live, and then they took control of their own performances down the line.
Zuffa didn’t start the push for regulation. But the funny thing is that no one is helping them now. In New York, Bob Reilly is able to focus a lot of his opposition on Dana White and the Fertittas, even though the man he deals with directly is Marc Ratner. I’ve heard Zuffa has pushed aside other promoters who were willing to help, but the funny thing is that I haven’t heard that from the promoters. And I’ve asked.
It’s a sport with a lot of nuance. The passing game and Curt Flood sometimes seem simple by comparison. All the more reason to read multiple sources — “inside” reporting, “outside” blogs and maybe even those of us who are starting to get it covered for a mainstream audience.
Which brings me to your contention that reporters covering sports with a “larger” audience must be held to a different standard than, say, someone tossed into a badminton arena with a few thousand screaming Chinese fans. Not necessarily, though I have to confess I’m the one who’s in an atypical situation. Whether it’s MMA, MLS or modern pentathlon, if I’m covering it for USA TODAY (for whom I’m still free-lancing, though I’m not there full-time), I’m writing for a lot of people who don’t know much about it. I still think I have something to offer “hard-core” fans — and believe me, soccer is quite similar to MMA in the sense of having a “hard-core” audience. I make a conscious effort to get a couple of quotes and observations that the hard-core fan hasn’t seen elsewhere. I’m still their eyes and ears in places they might not be able to go, and I still have a perspective that I hope will be valuable.
by Beau Dure on May 13, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s obfuscating a bit isn’t it? Is White’s recall fuzzy or is he purposely adjusting the facts to create the narrative he wants? That’s what prompted my post. Most of the reporters in my circle would have immediately realized
A. This was not the truth
and wondered
B. What the angle was.
It’s telling when the sports leading reporter either doesn’t have the background to make those judgments (or alternately is willing to play that game). It’s interesting that you think it is less egregious if Iole is playing political games rather than simply being unaware of what actually happened in 2006.
I applaud Zuffa’s efforts to move the sport forward and always have. I’ve also never had an issue getting credentialed at one of their events, so for me at least, the separation between “insider and outsider” is a false dichotomy.
When I say reporters covering niche sports are held to a different standard, I meant by their employers. It’s fun to read about badminton with descriptions of a wacky game most are unfamiliar with. But you wouldn’t put someone on the NFL beat who was like “Oh, it’s like Rugby but with no scrum. Interesting shape on that ball eh?” Fans would not be pleased. Just as fans are unhappy with MMA coverage that’s comes from a boxing perspective. Please note I’m not referring to you or Sergio here. USA Today has been home to more than a few interesting and informative interviews.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My hunch, and we wouldn’t know for sure unless Kevin cares to comment, is that for whatever reason, he didn’t consider that point worth challenging. It could’ve been that it slipped his mind that Diaz fought again after the ER incident — that sort of lapse happens to all of us. It could’ve been that he knows the ER incident changed White’s perception of Diaz. It could’ve been that he was on deadline.
I actually don’t mean to guess his motive or reasoning. I think my point, and I know I’ve been imprecise in expressing it, is that we can’t know what Kevin was or was not thinking. And that, to me, makes this incident a poor example to use in demonstrating a knowledge gap between hard-core fans and most journalists — a gap that I’ll absolutely acknowledge (pardon the pun).
When I mention the lack of a challenge to an authority figure, I don’t mean that it’s some sort of political game. We all know Kevin isn’t going to lose his access (to get to the comment following ours) because he asks Dana a tough question or points out that Diaz continued to fight. When reporters fail to challenge something an authority figure says, it’s more often a matter of time than a matter of fear.
I see what you mean about niche sports and different standards. There are exceptions, of course — some Super Bowl coverage is hysterically fluffy. But I agree wholeheartedly that MMA shouldn’t be getting the “hey, what a funny sport this is” approach. On the other hand, Tony Kornheiser seems to do that with everything, and he’s far wealthier than you or I ever will be.
You just gave the guy an out for anything he ever writes.
by VirtualBalboa on May 13, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn’t you excuse any error with “slipped his mind” and “on deadline?” Iole is an internet reporter now. I suspect deadlines are fluid and mistakes can be corrected.
I don’t expect Iole to necessarily challenge Dana during the interview. I’ve talked to Dana and know that he is gifted at directing the conversation. But at the same time, when you present the quote, you should make sure the readers have all the information.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 13, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
To simplify the point here and avoid the digressions, interesting as they are (I mean that sincerely — this is an interesting discussion): I don’t know why Kevin passed along that quote without a challenge. Neither do you, and neither does anyone else. For that reason, I don’t know that we can take this is a particularly good example of a “knowledge gap.” That gap certainly exists, and there have to be better examples.
Again, interesting discussion — glad you respond to your comments.
I feel the need to butt in here, though this has been one of the better uses for the BE comment system (so, hats off to both of you).
We certainly cannot know Iole’s motivations (or lack thereof) without Kevin letting them be known himself. However, if we look back at his history of reporting on the sport, I believe we can make some very safe assumptions. Iole’s been thought of as a UFC mouthpiece for some time. Maybe you believe that, maybe you don’t. There’s plenty of evidence damning him, though. I, personally, made a big stink about his coverage of Mirko Cro Cop’s “departure” here…
…and here:
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com/archives/382
Iole’s connection to Dana White and his ability to break news because of that relationship make him a valued reporter to MMA fans and the community at large. But I believe, and I don’t think this is really going out on a limb, you have to take his vantage point into context with anything and everything he says.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
CroCop
That situation was the final nail in the coffin regarding my opinion of Iole. That guy is a scumbag. I called him out on his comments, about how he blatantly lied to CroCops fans and how doing that sort of thing really effects how fans perceive the Croatian.
His response was, essentially, “I don’t care, if my comments upset fans of CroCop they weren’t fans of his anyway”.
ALL OF YOU LISTEN TO MEE, DON'T DISTURB HERE, I WILL CALL POLICE CATCH YOU, DON'T COME TO MY BANGOLOW HOUSE, UNDERSTAND, O.K. I HATE ALL OF YOU.
by Chris Barton on May 18, 2010 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions
FWIW,Steve Cofield has disappeared from Zuffa shows as of late (a place where he was a staple),after he asked the only semi-hard question during the big UFC 111 pre-fight press conference in NYC.
So asking a tough question,or making Dana look bad,is not a good idea for a reporter who wants to stay “in the loop” with Zuffa.And that goes back to journalistic integrity-do you want to report the facts,or do you want to report what Dana tells you to report?Iole could have easily reported what Dana said,and then put in a note that Diaz did fight multiple times immediately after the Riggs fight,and let readers draw their own conclusions.But that would skirt dangerously close to calling Dana a liar,so he let it lay.Why risk loosing his access,and his constant source of news articles?
In the end,he’s doing free PR work for Zuffa.
Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit
by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
They’ve only had two big shows since UFC 111, and they were both pretty far from Cofield’s home base. Tough questions aren’t going to get you kicked out.
That said, and I’ve made this point earlier, stripping credentials from Sherdog and company opens the door for all sorts of accusations like this.
Dana stripped pretty much the entire MMA media of credentials right around UFC 55.It wasn’t just Sherdog.Later,he slowly gave them back their credentials.Sherdog was the last to get their’s back,sometime last year.Now,they got them stripped again.
It’s Dana’s MO.It’s a way to keep the media subservent to him-they fear getting stripped of access.What’s funny is that Sherdog has done a lot of excellent coverage with no credentials.
Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit
by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, they do. I appreciate their perspective. Maybe they’re better off without those credentials, but I don’t know if that makes it right.
This isn’t the only sport with credential issues — I’m president of the North American Soccer Reporters, and credentials are certainly a key issue. But the issues with UFC are unique, absolutely.
I’m far more irritated when some political talking-head gets an unchallenged quote in the paper than I am when White’s recall of Diaz’s release is a little fuzzy.
What’s of concern is that Dana is trying to rewrite history.His recall isn’t “a little fuzzy”.He knows for a fact that he didn’t cut Diaz for fighting with Joe Riggs in a hospital room,because that never happened.Diaz fought Joe Riggs at UFC 57.Diaz next fought Sean Sherk on the main card of UFC 59.He was cut after he lost that fight,which was his third loss in a row (he had lost to Diego Sanchez before the Riggs fight).A few months later,he was brought back in as a last minute replacement against Josh Neer at UFC 62,and won.He came back again at UFC 65 against Glesion Tibau in a prelim fight,won,then………drifted away,for whatever reason.
Dana lying about cutting Nick Diaz for fighting Joe Riggs in a hospital room,and Kevin Iole repeating it is no different than your politcal talking head getting away with something unchallenged.Dana made something up out of thin air,and Iole went along with it.If Iole had spent 30 seconds on fight finder,he could have seen that what Dana had said was untrue.
There comes a point when you have to balance getting good access to a big figure like Dana,and journalistic integrity.
Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit
by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
As a dude who posts on the internet, I would like to point out that those things have nothing to do with one another.
by VirtualBalboa on May 13, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see what this was as a missed nuance of the sport. Its a basic fact. This is not him calling the blow that ends a fight a roundhouse low kick instead of a inside thigh kick. Nor do I see Curt Flood as a “nuance” so much as he is a fact and his contributions to the labor movement in baseball being of incredible importance. I don’t think you need to be George Will to know about that.
by VirtualBalboa on May 13, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
HA!!
nick diaz fought two more fights after the riggs fight, nick wanted to bounce out, fuck the ufc and their not true statements.
by TobikanJudan 6 6 6 on May 13, 2010 5:35 PM EDT reply actions
The best part about this post
Is the eloquent and informative post directly above it
by woomikee on May 13, 2010 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
...and the fact that...
He called out a non fact satement with a non fact statement of his own…
by truck on May 13, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is not a new concept in sports-- look at ESPN
It’s kind-of why me & so many other people became such devoted fans of ESPN in the 80’s. It was clear that we as fans knew way more about football and basketball than the simple-minded commentary offered by our local TV sports guy, our local newspaper columnist, and usually the TV game commentators as well. ESPN seemed to reflect the deeper passion and intelligence fans had developed for non-baseball sports, an intelligence and passion grossly unnoticed by the typical sports journalist who seemed to treat sports as trivial (remember when non-baseball standings and box scores used to be in tiny print in the back page of the sports section with all the other miscellany, and good luck finding information, even scores sometimes, for teams that weren’t local) or as something that needed to be spoon-fed to common people. Ironically, modern ESPN is has devolved to the point where it closer reflects what frustrated sports fans like me back in the day.
by Trust Doesn't Rust on May 14, 2010 10:23 AM EDT reply actions
Verbosity
i once heard a story about a kid applying to get into Columbia for grad school. One of the essays on the application was “Write about what you think is the biggest problem with the world today”….
This one particular applicant simply wrote “Verbosity” and left it at that. he was accepted immediately.
LOL at the mid-section of this comments section. buncha writers writing 10 paragraph essays in response to eachother picking apart this so-called “problem”
Dang. And I once got at least one professor to shorten the length requirement for a class paper with a newspaper column ripping academic-ese. I think I’ve devolved.
i mean, from what i read up there, you and Sergio and Snowden, and even Reaser16 all appear to be highly capable writers. great diction, structure, tone, and whatnot. i guess my question about the whole issue is…
how hard is it to become knowledgable enough to provide good context for MMA articles? i was a casual MMA fan for a while, didn’t really become real into all this until i started reading BE last summer, but now I consider myself a highly educated fan. I have a finance job that takes 50 hours of my week, yet in the little spare time i do have, i’ve managed to do a ton of research, watch old videos, and gain knowledge. after only about a year of following MMA, i feel like, if I had your guys’ quality writing ability, i could pown you at your job. I guess my point is: more research, less words
Do you believe every email forward you get?
by Simco on May 14, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I’m probably not going to do a good job of expressing my point here but I’ll try.
We know Dana likes to spin things for his own benefit but what about the people writing the stories who like to spin for whatever reason they see fit. Such as this piece entitled “The Promotional ‘Lynching’ of Kimbo Slice” by Dr. Johnny Benjamin here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johnny-benjamin/the-promotional-lynching_b_574600.html
Dana likes to spin things for his benefit but so does the media. Is it worse for the media who writes the articles to spin stories like Dr. Benjamin did or is it worse when somebody like Dana tries to spin what the media is writing? I mean the writer has the ability to counter Dana’s spin. Dana isn’t the one writing the article. When the media is the one doing the spinning there is no countering that spin.
Yea I don’t think I got my point across very good but I’m in a hurry. Hopefully people can decipher what I was trying to get at.
Just BE.
Sam actually has a million things going on in the industry. I think we’ll hear more and more from him. Exceptionally hard working guy.
by Jonathan Snowden on May 15, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
What exactly is going on here? 250 comments because Dana bent the truth to fit his “narrative”? What else is new? Oh, I see, Iole didn’t call him on it—immediately—so that means either he’s acting out of bias or ignorance. Or conspiracy. Okay. Thanks! I’ll keep this all on-board as I go on with life.
Behave with confidence
Hey Jonathan
I just wanted to let you know that Iole actually corrected himself today. Maybe he read your article, maybe not, but check his mailbag. When he responds to a question about Paul Daley being cut he mentions being wrong earlier about Nick Diaz and that he fought Sean Sherk at UFC 59.
You made a difference (maybe)!
follow me twitter.com/GotaHemmi
by Brian Hemminger on May 18, 2010 5:33 PM EDT reply actions
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