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Around SBN: Bracketology 2012: Duke Finally Steps Up To The No. 1 Line

The Spectacle That Could Have Been and the Spectacle That Could Still Be: Kimbo Slice, James Toney, and Herschel Walker

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Dave Meltzer in the latest Wrestling Observer (subscription required) discusses Kimbo Slice and his future:

Kimbo Slice, the biggest television ratings draw in history, lost to Matt Mitrione, and was then released the same night.
...

As for Slice, he was ground and pounded into defeat by Matt Mitrione. Slice was the second most popular fighter on the show (hometown fighter Patrick Cote got a deafening response). Make no mistake about it, he could still draw to a degree if put on a live Spike show. On PPV is a different animal. There is something that Slice has that few fighters have. People just like him, whether he wins or loses. But if he can't beat Mitrione, the reality is, he probably can't beat anyone in UFC. He didn't want to fight James Toney, who he possibly could have beaten in a fight that would have meant something. And his knees are shot and he doesn't know how to defend low kicks, which is a bad combination. The high price tag was also a factor.

Still, Slice vs. Herschel Walker, if put on CBS in the fall, has a good chance to be the most watched MMA fight ever on U.S. television and the door is open for Strikeforce. Of course, it's still a freak show fight that doesn't build the needed new stars and those kind of fights don't build the brand. But it may save the promotion if the CBS deal is hanging by a thread.

This is the first I've heard of Kimbo declining to fight James Toney, although I certainly don't doubt Meltzer's reporting. Honestly, booking Kimbo as the third-billed fight on a PPV card against Matt Mitrione was pretty nearly promotional malpractice.

I kind of admire Dana White's decision to cut Slice. As Luke pointed out, Dana White's decision to cut Kimbo Slice sends a loud and clear message that the UFC is more focused on sport than spectacle. Over the long haul, that's good brand building.

Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that a James Toney vs Kimbo Slice fight would have been a huge national media draw and would have done banner PPV business. Missing that kind of opportunity is just foolish. Especially when there's no pretense that James Toney is anything but a freak show signing for the UFC. And imagine this -- what if they pushed a Kimbo vs Toney fight via a season of TUF? Don't tell me that wouldn't have drawn ratings and tons of free media attention.

Especially as Meltzer points out that the biggest advantage boxing has over the UFC is the free media attention it garners:

Quite frankly, one of the reasons the "big" boxing match with Mayweather or Pacquiao do so well is because they get tons more media coverage than even the biggest UFC, because the media generally has a lag time behind something getting popular when it comes to judging public interest and importance in a subject.

Which brings us to a potential Kimbo Slice vs Herschel Walker fight. Sure that fight has absolutely no serious sporting significance. But so what. Fights like that are what draw in the casual eyeballs and the revenue that subsidize the serious fights that don't draw enough interest on their own.

Herschel Walker's first MMA fight for Strikeforce already outpaced anything else they've done -- including Fedor's network debut -- in terms of media coverage. 

And if Coker doesn't want to sully himself with Slice vs Walker, he could always book Slice against Bobby Lashley. Surely Lashley would take that fight. And beating Kimbo Slice would certainly get Lashley over with the general public.

If Scott Coker isn't savvy enough to book Slice vs Walker or Lashley, he really ought to hand in his promoter's license. 

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Herschel will beat the pooshitpissburpfarts out of Kimbo.

"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff

by Earl Montclair on May 12, 2010 8:48 PM EDT reply actions  

I wish Kimbo all the best

Hope SF signs him, I need my freak show fights every once in a while. Hell, put him against Giant Silva and I’d watch it…

Eu, sou brasileiro, com muito orgulho, com muito amor♫
June 10th can't come soon enough, for another star is needed!

by Orcus on May 12, 2010 8:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Agreed. If we get Ubereem/Fedor, Strikeforce would be beyond nuts to miss putting that fight and Walker/Slice on CBS.

by Lordjimbo2 on May 12, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Double standards are the shit!

myspace.com/tbma <--- Give it a listen, let me know what you think.
Hi, My name is II SMASH II, and I am an elitist.

by II SMASH II on May 12, 2010 9:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Toney/Kimbo would be less of a Freakshow than Couture/Toney.

by KOQ24 on May 12, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

How so?

Follow me on twitter @thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on May 12, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

experience wise

Eu, sou brasileiro, com muito orgulho, com muito amor♫
June 10th can't come soon enough, for another star is needed!

by Orcus on May 12, 2010 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think you are confusing “freakshow” with “mismatch”.

"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff

by Earl Montclair on May 12, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

And a huge mismatch isn’t a Freakshow?

by KOQ24 on May 12, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

agreed

I personally always viewed freakshows as huge mismatches, two people who can’t really fight in all areas of MMA fighting each other are just two people who can’t really fight in all areas of MMA fighting each other :P

Eu, sou brasileiro, com muito orgulho, com muito amor♫
June 10th can't come soon enough, for another star is needed!

by Orcus on May 12, 2010 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am saying the huge mismatch of Couture v. Toney is a freakshow and so is Toney v. Kimbo. Im just saying they are different types of freakshows. There, that makes more sense.

"Hit me up on Twitter @ IDontHaveATwitterBecauseIhaveAFuckingLifeAndDontCareWhatEveryoneElseIsDoingOrThinkingEverySecondOfEveryFuckingDaySeriouslyKnockItOff

by Earl Montclair on May 12, 2010 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

rec'd

"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye

by Excelsior! on May 12, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not really sure what your point is there, I’m reading it because I respect your opinion, doesn’t change the fact that the UFC gets criticized no matter what direction they take.

by ufc4 on May 12, 2010 10:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

so true

as well they should.

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Kid Nate on May 13, 2010 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that’s one of the dumbest things I’ve seen you say. And I generally think you defend your opinions pretty well, whether I agree with you (read; hate them) or not.

What’s the point of criticism for the sake of criticism? In a general sense, if it’s not constructive, whether it’s for a single person or a large company, keep it to yourself. Otherwise you come off as a “hater” or a yelling crazy person or something.

by LiuLang on May 13, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

The point is that if they’ve already signed Toney, then they’ve committed to booking freak-show fights, so they might as well book him against Kimbo.

by David Bixenspan on May 12, 2010 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

The same thing could have been said about the signing of Brock, they didn’t book him against guys like Kimbo.

by ufc4 on May 12, 2010 11:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Herschel vs Kimbo would be a joke.

And if I’m Scott, I book it. We’ve been denied Kimbo vs Sean Gannon. We’ve been denied Shamrock vs Shamrock. We’ve now been denied Kimbo vs Toney. There is no good reason to deny us Walker vs Slice. Besides integrity. But this is the fight business so we don’t have to worry about that.

by John Nash on May 12, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Kimbo does 10 million viewers.

And I would use that broadcast to announce the Ken Shamrock vs Frank Shamrock match on CBS.
Also, Herchel takes it.

by John Nash on May 12, 2010 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would not rely on Frank

Not on CBS that’s for sure. Pulled out of the Kimbo fight day of, and got popped for steroids at the epic Wargods. At this point in his career he isn’t bankable.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on May 12, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

You meant Ken right?

by KOQ24 on May 12, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep. Sorry.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on May 12, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

If I was Coker I wouldn’t touch Kimbo v Walker with a 10 foot pole. I agree it has most watched fioght of all time written all over it. But if Walker takes a real serious beating from Kimbo trying to prove he is still some one. Then Strikefore takes the wrap for getting Americas hero trashed and every one was there to watch it. Dana starts in with the “Those fucking stupid fucks …” nonsence, the nut huggers join in and you got a shit storm of epic proportions. The end of the Memphis card would be kids play in comparison.

As for Lashley I would love to see that fight. ( Total freak show) But there is no way in the world Lashley is going to sign a fight contract that could result in him getting hit in the face that hard. No way.

by j.villain on May 12, 2010 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think anyone would be mad at strikeforce, or Coker for putting Walker in a fight that he has a chance of losing. If Kimbo wins? Then he fights Bobby Lashley on their next CBS card, or PPV. For a promotion that needs all the help they can get, sucking up your pride, and putting on a fight that means nothing more then pulling in rankings, is not that big of a deal.

by Fedorable on May 13, 2010 8:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kimbo/Walker wouldn’t be that much of a Freakshow.
2 old guys who are relative newcomers to MMA.

Putting on that fight with 3 other “legit” fights would do more good than bad for SF.

by KOQ24 on May 12, 2010 9:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Kimbo/Walker is the definition of a freakshow. Not saying SF shouldn’t do it but let’s not give them too much credit.

by ufc4 on May 12, 2010 9:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Yup. They would hold that one in a circus tent.

by j.villain on May 12, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hershel

Is already a Tiger. You guys see him roaring at Nagy (Nudge?) last fight? errr…his fight?

by Body Triangle on May 13, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep that’s not really as much of a freakshow as it is just two guys with limited experience signing to fight each other. Of course Kimbo vs Walker would be blown way out of proportion by the mainstream media and the show booking of it would be very freakshow, it’s just that the actual fight would be on a relatively competitive level. I do at least think that both guys take MMA seriously it’s just that their experience and talent level should place them on undercards at state fairs not fighting on top tier event main cards.

by who me on May 12, 2010 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Toney vs Slice would have never lived up to the freakshow hype.

Most of those fights are awful and leave you feeling dirty. “I got pumped up for that! What’s wrong with me.”

by snakecharmer1340 on May 12, 2010 9:27 PM EDT reply actions  

the UFC doesnt need freakshow fights anymore

they have legitamate athletes who are draws now, by milking kimbo for all he was worth the UFC was able to revitalize TUF and draw good viewers but now hes no longer needed. With ESPN actually starting to get behind mma and hopefully a network deal on the horizon the UFC has grown past the point of needing to depend on fighters like kimbo or herscel walker to get good ratings

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on May 12, 2010 9:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Yuh-huh!

Dude, every time the Raiders play, its a freak match.

I demand freakshows in sports.

BITE THE HEAD OFF THE CHICKEN DAMN IT!!!

by Body Triangle on May 13, 2010 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'm waiting for the esteemed RDJ's opinion

Before I take any stand on this matter.

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on May 12, 2010 9:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Robert Downey Junior

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on May 12, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fuck me its senior. I’m just speaking nonsense all over this post

"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-

by Neil Manich on May 12, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yep, I think Iron Man has better things to do with his time. That snot-nosed college kid you’re talking about is probably shotgunning natty lights with his frat buddies right now, I’m sure he’ll be along shortly.

by ufc4 on May 12, 2010 10:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

At least he has something to add to the conversation,unlike some folks around here.

Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit

by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 3:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

KABOOM!!

(irony)

Iron…Man?

ROBERT DOWNEY SENIOR!

by Body Triangle on May 13, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Kimbo is a free TV fighter and the UFC should have known it

Kimbo’s fans aren’t the types to buy a pay-per-view. By and large, they’re the types who don’t follow the sport that closely, but have a strong recognition of Kimbo from his street fights and general cult of personality. I teach at an inner-city high school, and I still find my students watching his street fights and the Tank Abbot fight, and generally making comments that revere his badassedness. They don’t know or really care that he’s a mediocre fighter because they understand that he’s good at putting on a FIGHT. Put him on CBS against Herschel Walker and every one of these kids will watch, and all will talk about it the next day. Anchor the card with a compelling matchup like Overeem-Arlovski, put Jacare in a fight where he can armbar somebody, get King Mo out there too against somebody he can beat. That’s a card you can build on.

by Trust Doesn't Rust on May 12, 2010 9:36 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

i like how we dont even mention fedor as a possible matchup for anyone in SF anymore

i hate how m1 is ruining him

We have a saying back home that if your coming on, COME ON!!!!

by milk72 on May 12, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am wondering if Kimbo was making to much money for free TV.

by j.villain on May 12, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

They could of had SpikeTV subsidize his appearances on free tv, you know they aren’t happy about him being gone as he was ratings gold.

by who me on May 12, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unless his contract was so large that only ppv revenue would have worked.

by John Nash on May 12, 2010 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who knows but the kind of ratings Kimbo pulled for TUF are worth quite a bit of money to a tv network. If they were paying the guy 6 figures then Spike could of chipped in for ratings points if they were paying him 7 figures then he was even costly for PPV unless he drew Brock-like numbers.

by who me on May 13, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'd like to know how Kimbo and Toney could do a season of TUF.

They would know less about MMA then every single one of the contestants.

by Trysdor on May 12, 2010 9:50 PM EDT reply actions  

Easy

Kimbo could teach his team about the enemy (the inner-me) and Toney could teach his team side-check kicks and how to be death-fighters.

by ufc4 on May 12, 2010 9:59 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr339/kanodogg/d0d272ca.jpg

kimbo slice t shirts on massive clearance…2 for $12… never have seen tapout shirts at truck stops before

by kanodogg on May 12, 2010 11:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Meltzer is bat shit crazy...

…if he thinks Kimbo had a chance of beating James Toney. Anyone knows who knows a bit of background on Kimbo knows that he’s a boxing influenced fighter. He damn sure knows who James Toney is, and (as confirmed by Meltzer) wouldn’t even think about fighting James.

For the record, Kimbo Slice cannot beat James Toney. And he knows it straight up.Give a former World Champion some credit.

note : I mean no disrespect to Kimbo with the above statements. Throughout his entire journey through all this, he has been humble, respectful and has done nothing but what was asked of him, and I respect that. But we’re talking about James Toney here. A bit past his prime, yes, but so is Kimbo and he was never a professional boxer, let alone a World Champion.

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on May 13, 2010 12:13 AM EDT reply actions  

The same Kimbo Slice

who beat a better and more respected boxer sorta-turned MMA fighter in Ray Mercer? NO WAI!

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on May 13, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

In RearNakedChoker’s defense, the Kimbo who beat Mercer was 3/4 years younger and never took a leg kick. The leg kicks with Houston and Mitrione add up when you have old knees. But yes, Kimbo could have just taken Toney if they fought.

Follow me on twitter @thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on May 13, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Damn you pdl. I forgot about Mercer. :P

I still think Kimbo loses this fight 9 times out of 10. For a few reasons :

1. Toney is 7 years younger than Mercer. When we’re talking about guys in their 40s/50s, 7 years makes a world of difference. Plus, there’s a 6 year age difference between Toney/Kimbo vs. a 13 year age difference between Mercer/Kimbo.

2. I would think that James Toney’s people would have seen the Kimbo/Mercer fight and realized that Kimbo would know better than to trade with James, and therefore would create a gameplan for James that prioritizes takedown defense first, clinch striking second, and range striking third.

3. As thisredengine mentions, Kimbo’s knees are just about shot. It’s bone against bone down there, and takedowns aren’t going to get any easier for him. If Toney can absorb the fundamentals of takedown D, he should be able to handle Kimbo’s takedown attempts, which are well below elite level.

"The path to enlightenment is through suffering"

by RearNakedChoker on May 13, 2010 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

You’re forgetting that Ray Mercer is a real heavyweight with legit one punch KO power,while James Toney is a obese super middleweight who is a grinder who usually needed 20+ minutes before he put guys away.

Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit

by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 3:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

therefore would create a gameplan for James that prioritizes takedown defense first

The Kimboplex.

If done correct, no can defend.

by Steve4192 on May 13, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

You do realize that ever since the Petruzelli KO,Kimbo mostly just takes guys down and lays on em…..right?And that James Toney would be about the easiest guy in the world to do that to?

He would outgrapple Toney to a very tame decision victory,or maybe pull off the most basic of submissions on him-maybe get a forearm choke or something.

Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit

by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, apparently Kimbo agrees with you.

by VirtualBalboa on May 13, 2010 7:11 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rear naked choke you’re spot on, comparing a 4 weight boxing world champion to Kimbo Slice is comical! Kimbo is a real warrior and i mean no disrespect to him, but he beat a Ray Mercer who did absolutely NO cross training what so ever and tapped to a crude guillotine choke. Toney is taking this seriously, and compared to Ray Mercer his punching technique is in a different time zone! Toney is a master of one of the fundamentals of MMA, Kimbo, Walker and especially Canseco are NOT!

by sheikybaby on May 13, 2010 8:57 AM EDT reply actions  

I love people who think James Toney is actually going to do something in MMA.

Check out my MMA highlight videos!
http://www.dailymotion.com/WheelchairBandit

by Brian Mayes on May 13, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kimbo's next opponent should be...

… wait for it… Jose Canseco! The only question is when Jose will start a twitter campaign and throw up a website to try and lure the brawler into a meaningless, senseless total freakshow event. They could hold it in someone’s backyard to give Kimbo home court advantage.

by Fooshnickens on May 13, 2010 11:14 AM EDT reply actions  

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