Can the WEC's Ben Henderson Gain Top Ten Status in the UFC?
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 3:37 PM EDT
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One of the interesting discussions among fans in the aftermath of WEC 48 is the potential of the WEC's current lightweight champion Ben "Smooth" Henderson. Not only has he rattled off eleven straight victories with only two going the distance, but he's also managed to knock off some of the WEC's top lightweights in Jamie Varner, Donald Cerrone, and top notch NCAA wrestler Shane Roller in his quest to become the WEC's undisputed champion.
While his one minute and fifty-seven second choke out of Donald Cerrone on Saturday night has sparked some interest in his arrival in the UFC down the road, there is some discussion as to whether Henderson will suffer the same fate as those past champions of the heavier weight classes who found their way into the UFC when Zuffa merged the divisions.
As Jonathan Snowden opined in a fanpost here on BloodyElbow.com, he believes the historical precedence of the past merger of the WEC's heavier weight classes may reveal Henderson's fate at a higher level:
They are the lightweight equivalents of Steve Cantwell, Brian Stann, and Carlos Condit. You remember those fine gentlemen right? These were Henderson's WEC counterparts at 170 and 205 pounds. They were all sold as "world" champions, just like Henderson. And then they went to the UFC and quickly faded from the scene. Condit, at one point, was considered a top-10 fighter based on his WEC pedigree. That illusion quickly disappeared as Condit fell back to the middle of the pack. Stann and Cantwell seem to racing each other out of the promotion all together. None of them seem like potential prospects any more. The WEC illusion has washed away. Or it should have.
The point Snowden makes is that success in the WEC is "often illusory". But I think there are some unfair comparisons here in the context of the discussion. While these fighters were sold as "world champions", casual fans were really the only victims of this illusion. Any fan who had followed the WEC for quite awhile knew that its light heavyweight division was not even close to comparable with its stacked UFC counterpart. Anyone who actually thought Steve Cantwell or Brian Stann could compete with the UFC's top LHW's off the bat were just... wrong.
I think the comments regarding Condit as still a bit premature as he's only lost a close split decision to Martin Kampmann in his stint with the UFC, but he's by no means the material to give Georges St. Pierre a run for his money. Chael Sonnen is by far the most successful, gaining a title shot along with a top three ranking. The WEC hasn't completely failed in that regard.
I'll agree on the point that ranking Ben Henderson in the top ten today would be completely absurd. Whether or not he's main event material on a WEC pay-per-view is debatable, although most of us who follow the sport knew what we were buying -- Casual fans, not so much.
The real question coming out of the entire discussion is whether or not Ben Henderson can actually achieve what his predecessors could not -- a top ten ranking in the UFC's lightweight division or at least some sort of relevance in the pack. Right now, he's ranked #16 on the USAT/SBN Rankings, tied with the UFC's Joe Stevenson and above Joachim Hansen, Gesias Cavalcante and Nate Diaz. I actually ranked him #19 with both Cavalcante and Stevenson ahead of him., but you get the point. He's just barely inside the top 20 among most MMA rankings.
Personally, I think Henderson could become a legitimate middle-of-the-pack UFC lightweight. While I don't think he'll ever make a run toward the top of the division, I think he'd be a solid competitor in the 8-12 range of the rankings. I think he'd give a guy like Jim Miller some problems as well as Joe Stevenson, and there is a possibility his speed and transition ability could catch a guy like Tyson Griffin. Top five, probably not, but he's also only 26 years of age and working with some of the best camps in the world. I don't think his ability has topped out quite yet.
Henderson's style is also fairly advantageous to some surprise endings. He's a very good scrambler, solid wrestler, and an improving grappler off his back. His guillotine transitions are lightning quick, and he isn't a bad puncher by any means. With the ability to threaten and land damage in almost any area of a battle, he can do a lot more things than many of the UFC's lower-tier lightweights.
Will Ben Henderson follow the footsteps of his WEC counterparts and fizzle out in the catacombs of the division? Or can he achieve a respectable middle-of-the-pack status? I imagine he could be a steady undercard headliner who may make his way into 5th and 4th main card battles at his peak, but I don't believe he can achieve a top five status. Top ten? Not out of my realm of possibilities.
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bring on the merger!
in my view henderson is clearly talented. submitting cerrone in less than one round, I don’t care who you are he can be a great fighter. Right now I would put him around the #10 mark. only here we can establish how good he can be until the sad fact of the matter is that we have to see him in the UFC with the elites.
BTW guys i’m quite new to SB Nation. I posted my first blog on Kid Yamamoto. Tell me what you think about his appearance on the undercard portion.
What’s the reasoning behind putting him at #10 now?
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Diego Sanchez is 10...
Ben Henderson has never even fought a ranked opponent. Varner and Cerrone are good, but come on.. For him to even be ranked as high as Joe Stevenson at 16 is overrating his accomplishments.
I think the mid teens is about right for him at this point. That said, I do believe that he is a fighter that could be in the mix in the UFC or any other promotion, in the next couple of years.
he is improving and separating himself from the contenders in the WEC.
I agree with Snowden on the other WEC LWs, but I differ on Henderson. He has the athleticism to take his game to the next level, which would be top 10.
I only agree with Snowden in the context of “world champions” heading into the UFC and being sold as these legit contenders. I don’t think Condit is going to be a complete dud. I think he’ll be relatively solid in the middle of the pack, never a challenger to the top without some bulking up though.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree the natural born killer needs to work out with Mir.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 27, 2010 12:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't like the Condit comparison either.
He had a helluva fight with Kampmann which I thought he won. That was his only loss and he’s been injured.
Right now I would have Henderson ranked mid teens at 155 but it’s tough to say how he would do in the UFC. Let him and Danzig or maybe Sam Stout go at it and see how he fares.
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If Ben Henderson was in one of Japans circus shows he’d be ranked #2 in the world by now.
by mmalogic on Apr 27, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Hard not to agree with historical trends there.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
i was gonna say
who wins between Bendo and Aoki? from what happened in the last 2 weeks im not sure…
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by Thats It For you! on Apr 27, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I actually think Aoki loses to Henderson, but it depends how he approaches Aoki’s guard. If he tries to wade a bit, Aoki could submit him.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if that holds up to scrutiny.
- Hirota won 6 of 7, and was on a win streak over Ishida and Kitoaka and was still only #11 going into NYE Dynamite!! show.
- Satoru Kitoaka only got to #10 after winning 6 in a row and 11 of 12, which included wins over Gomi, Paul Daley, Yokata, and Eiji Mitsuoka, and had previous wins over Carlos Condit and Kurt Pellegrino.
I think both of those fighters had comparative runs over better competition and still lingered around 10.
Well, duh.
There’s corrections going on throughout the MMA world in terms of rankings. I actually had Hirota in the 8-12 range because Kitaoka was in that areas as well. I didn’t move him up because he hadn’t beaten anyone above him, nor will he likely get the opportunity
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm confused
Logic said this:
If Ben Henderson was in one of Japans circus shows he’d be ranked #2 in the world by now.You followed with:
Hard not to agree with historical trends there.I retorted by saying it didn’t hold up to scrutiny. If you were being sarcastic earlier, I missed it.
I’m simply saying that some of the guys that could head up to top five haven’t because most of the rankers have corrected themselves from overly ranking guys. Most people kept Aoki up there until it was proven he wasn’t at that level. I think you’ll now see those fighters only maintain, at the most, a top 7 ranking until they prove otherwise.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
And #7 is the most I’d go. Most of them will sit at 10-12 at a top spot in Japan in a LW ranking.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to somewhat disagree. The reason Aoki was number two was he kept winning. In hindsight (and even with foresight) we could see he had several major weaknesses in his game, but weaknesses or not he beat JZ, Uno, Alvarez, Shaolin, Hansen, and Hirota (and I would easily favor Alvarez and JZ in a rematch),
We could be saying the same thing with Shogun and Frankie Edgar in a year. If Shogun loses to Lyoto and gets killed by Rampage was he really number two? Or was he overrated because he eked out a victory over Coleman, beat a shot Liddel, and gave Lyoto a run for his money in a title match?
Agreed...
Henderson is legit, but unless we see him fight outside of the WEC it will all be speculation.
I think it is beyond absurd to state a WEC lightweight can’t be considred top 10 in the world, especially when they have the consensous top 3 fighters in their other two weight classes.
Well
The difference is that the WEC doesn’t face any real competition in those other 2 divisions. You can’t compare the WEC 155 division to the other 2. It’s apples and oranges.
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Can we compare it to the DREAM lightweights?
You know, the ones whose champ got spanked by Gilbert “I have a pretty comparable record to Bendo” Melendez?
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You don’t really want me to debate the differences between Ben Henderson and Gil Melendez, do you?
I know what you’re saying about Dream LW’s, and I agree with you (and logic) that some are highly overrated. But look at it this way – do you think Ben Henderson could defeat Tatsuya Kawajiri right now?
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Yes.
Though I’d probably give him some time for a break and a training camp.
That was easy. :-)
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Oh Gilbert Melendez, who somehow exposed JMMA even though he is largely a part of it?
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I didn't say that.
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I have to take issue with claiming Bendo and Gilbert Melendez have comparable records. Melendez has beaten Aoki, Thomson, Ishida, Kawajiri, and Guida – fighters that have beaten fighters of note – while Bendo has beaten Varner, Cerrone, Roller, and Njokuani – fighters that have beaten who? Each other?
I am not a fan of when MMA fans compare rankings in Lightweight simply because there are UFC Lightweights that are high up the rankings but their strength of record isn’t actually that strong. Kenny Florian’s best wins are against Clay Guida, Roger Huerta, Joe Lauzon and Joe Stevenson. Tyson Griffin’s best wins are against Clay Guida, Gleison Tibau, Rafael dos Anjos, and Hermes Franca. There are those that will argue that those wins are somehow stronger than the best wins of Melendez, Aoki, or Ben Henderson, but the fact of the matter is that there is not enough crossover to determine who has the stronger wins. Looking at skill, we can determine that some of these fighters have advantages in some areas, but not in others. I also feel that some MMA fans put too much value in fighting in the UFC instead of looking at who those fighters have fought.
There are lots of Featherweights and Bantamweights in Japan...
DREAM, WVR, K-1, Shoot, DEEP and Bellator don’t count?
This was my point that none of these guys above got.
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I got your point, but you missed mine (probably because I was unclear). I was referring to apples to apples comparisons at 155, meaning UFC vs WEC. North American competition.
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But we're talking about ranking him amongst ALL promotions.
You know, where Shinya Aoki has been Number 2 for the last few years.
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Sigh.
No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I think I’m just going to sit this one out, because I’m not sure if I will be able to get my point across clearly enough for you to understand.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
All I'm saying is... If Aoki, Kawajiri and Alvarez can gain top 5 world rankings without fighting UFC fighters...
Why couldn’t a WEC guy achieve the same?
WEC already has concensous top fighters in two weight classes.
Sure there is more competition at LW, but to say they can’t have a top 10 guy seems silly to me. You can’t limit his ranking based on the promotion (it isn’t like he’s fighting for Barn Brawls 6).
WEC is a top notch organization and they have done a wonderful job of finding and developing talent. Ben may not be ready for superstar status yet, but he is talented and I wouldn’t eliminate the idea of him beating the following top 15 fighters…
Aoki
Alvarez
Hirota
Gomi
Jim Miller
If he beat any one or two of them, that makes him instantly credible as top 10…
All I’m saying is… If Aoki, Kawajiri and Alvarez can gain top 5 world rankings without fighting UFC fighters…
Why couldn’t a WEC guy achieve the same?
Because Japan, for a couple years, was indisputably the place for top-level lightweight competition, and some of the standout competitors stayed over there. Nothing comparable is true of WEC.
It doesn’t need to still be true for it to still have an effect on current rankings.
Anyway, the point is that it’s never been true of WEC.
...but if the talent has left Japan it has to go somewhere...
…and there is nothing saying it never will be true about the WEC…
(I would argue yes, but that's not my point.)
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by jemaleddin on Apr 27, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As I said in the other piece, his “illusory” description failed because he conveniently left out Chael Sonnen. Completely Ignoring the most successful WEC champion to date made his point come across pretty weakly, IMO.
As for Smooth, I absolutely believe he has the potential to become a top 10 guy one day. Is he there yet? No. But bringing him into the UFC and using his WEC belt as a selling point for him being a contender is just natural. It’s about selling fights. It’s not like they’d bring him in and give him Edgar right away or anything.
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by Tim Burke on Apr 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I actually just thought of that and added it. Good call.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he should be brought along a little bit slower than Carlos Condit was. I think that if they bring Ben along a little slower while selling the WEC champ angle that would pay off better with less risk than they had with Condit.
When we pull our pants down in front of teacher which way should we stand? I mean do we show her our butts or our weiners?
by Earl Montclair on Apr 27, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with that, but I believe they did it with Condit because they believed he was a true contender. It wasn’t until Ellenberger dropped him 92 times that the illusion was shattered somewhat. At the time, Kampmann had just dropped to 170 (had one fight against Baixinho) and was seen as a guy on the short list for a title shot. Condit BARELY dropped that decision. And both Condit and Kampmann had been pros for 6+ years. Larson was Condit’s biggest win in the WEC, and at that point he hadn’t been exposed yet. In conclusion…I don’t think the UFC fucked up with the way they dealt with Condit. It just didn’t work out.
Bendo, on the other hand, has been a pro for 3.5 years and hasn’t fought anyone close to elite. They’re doing a great job of building him in the WEC, but like you said, rushing him into the UFC would be a huge mistake. If anything, it would be a better to drop some mid-level UFC 155er’s down to give him some legit competition within the confines of the WEC. A lot of guys wouldn’t like the potential paycut, but a title shot (maybe on a future PPV card?) could convince them.
Either way, people were jumping the gun on what Dana said about the WEC’s 155 division anyway. Henderson’s not coming into the UFC anytime soon.
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by Tim Burke on Apr 27, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree as well. I don’t think they screwed the pooch with Condit, I just think that they can still learn from that and apply it to Ben if/when that happens
When we pull our pants down in front of teacher which way should we stand? I mean do we show her our butts or our weiners?
by Earl Montclair on Apr 27, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
The WEC champ will be fighting the UFC champ… this will be the next phase in bringing all the LW’s to the UFC.
If BJ wins convincingly and Kenflo beats Maynard this next phase will happen sooner rather than later.
Based on what?
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by Richard Wade on Apr 27, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Boo that
There’s no reason to make a good young prospect in Henderson a sacrificial lamb to whoever the champ is at the time.
I didn’t include Sonnen because they aren’t comparable. I didn’t say that all WEC fighters were frauds or anything of the sort. Henderson is a good prospect with potential who is young in his career. Chael Sonnen was an established pro with almost 30 fights before ever joining the WEC.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions
As I said, you waved a grand brush across the WEC with your statements though.
success in the WEC is often illusory
“Often” gives you a backdoor on Sonnen, but I just saw your point as jaded, and your views on Condit in particular to be incorrect. I meant no disrespect, I was simply pointing out that I disagreed with your point and not even mentioning 185 at all seemed strange.
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by Tim Burke on Apr 27, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I fixed it for you.
I didn’t include Sonnen becausethey aren’t comparablehe basically reduces my entire argument to shreds by his very existence.
You’re welcome.
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by jemaleddin on Apr 27, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
So, in what way is Henderson like Sonnen again? Other than they fight on Versus shows nobody watched?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
No it doesn’t. Sonnen wasn’t a prospect when he came to the WEC. He was a mature fighter with 28 pro bouts and a wrestling pedigree. Henderson came to the WEC with eight low level fights. Since being in the promotion he’s fought other guys unproven at the top level of the sport. I don’t think they compare and Sonnen wasn’t a part of my post because he wasn’t a prospect masquerading as a champion.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
But Henderson wasn't your only point of comparison.
Right?
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You think Sonnen is an equally apt a comparison as Cantwell for Henderson?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I think he generalized his argument too much to leave out a whole division of the WEC. If he had stuck with “Henderson is masquerading as a champion” instead of “success in the WEC is an illusion”, there’d be no argument to make here.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I said success in the WEC is often illusory. Then I gave examples of when this has been the case in the past. Sonnen doesn’t fit. His success was not illusory and he had fought highly ranked guys for years before coming to the WEC. He has nothing to do with Henderson.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And everything to do with Condit.
I like it when you cherry-pick which fighters you want to consider in which way. It’s cute.
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The best anyone can argue against it is that Chael Sonnen, a veteran guy who didn’t win a title in the WEC, has gotten some wins and risen to being a title challenger. Apart from that, who’s the next most successful guy? Carlos Condit, who looks like a solid gatekeeper? How does any of this validate Henderson’s level of competition?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
That's not the question
The question I’m asking is: how does any of that prove that Henderson is overrated – which is JS’s basic assertion.
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Are you kidding me? My basic assertion is that Henderson is a prospect and that prospects, inherently, aren’t main event level fighters for $45 PPVs.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
His other point of comparison was Condit.
His first fight in the WEC was his 23rd fight. Would you label him a prospect?
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I think that’s a fair question. When Condit hit the WEC, the general feeling about him was that he was still developing and the WEC welterweight division was going to be his grounds to do so. I don’t think anyone really thought that way about Chael Sonnen.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
And really more to the point, The UFC decided that it was in their best interest to get Condit out of the WEC and into their organization (along with Sonnen, Cantwell, etc) long before ever coming to PPV. Condit’s performances since are a loss and an extremely close decision win. He doesn’t look right now like he’s a guy who should ever have headlined a PPV, no?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
You describe the win as “extremely close”, but not the loss? That’s a good history rewrite.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Either way, does Condit look like a guy who should have ever coheadined a PPV? Honestly.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there anyone who shouldn’t coheadline a PPV? What is the Mendoza Line for that? Is there even one?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Wait
You asked a question, I answered it, and now you’re changing the question? I don’t get it.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
The followup question is in response to you voicing your opinion. If Condit is at the level of someone who could be coheadlining PPVs for Zuffa, who isn’t at that level?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Dude, seriously
It was a WEC PPV! If he was still the champion there, of course he’s worthy of being a headliner!
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
So in spite of the obvious removing of the WEC brand from its own PPV, we still have to pretend that the WEC is really some sort of totally separate and independent organization from the UFC? If there is a vaccum, its only existing in the minds of fans who need a pat on the back for spending $45 of their hard earned money.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The branding was removed because Spike needed them to. You know this. And you’re missing the point. I’m just gonna stop now.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Anyone who believes that the UFC wasn’t happy to confuse the marketplace, hoping some fans would see Dana and Rogan and Spike and think this was a UFC card are probably the kind of people that fall victim to pyramid schemes.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And now we're in conspiracy theory land.
See ya!
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You really believe that putting a WEC preshow on Spike and the subsequent inability to promote it as the WEC wasn’t on their minds when they made that call? They didn’t even put the WEC logo in big letters on the poster, and its not like a Spike preshow had anything to do with that. You are awfully gullible.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
a) Believe what you want
b) Where this all falls down is that what they ACTUALLY produced – not some hypothetical future show, but the one we all just watched – was a show that was better run and produced than many UFC events and with what may be the best night of fights of the year.
JS’s whole argument is that this card wasn’t worth it and people were sold a false bill of goods. Which would be totally defensible if not for the fact that it was an AWESOME card.
Claiming that Bendo didn’t deserve to be in the “co-main event” (that term is something worth being pissed at Zuffa about, if you’re looking for reasons, but let’s face it – there was one main event and Bendo wasn’t in it) when this was a rematch of one of the best fights of last year and he is in fact their top guy at 155 is just mind-blisteringly stupid.
The stupidty that it would have represented if he had put this up BEFORE the fights is DWARFED by the fact that we all watched that night of fights and know that it’s a bunch of nonsense now.
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It’s not that farfetched.
Of course they had to remove the WEC name to put it on Spike.
But why couldn’t they have done a Countdown show on Versus and keep the WEC brand anywhere they wanted to?
They wanted to put it on Spike, with Dana and Rogan hyping it up as if it was a UFC.
It was a move clearly to confuse the marketplace.
It worked as well as Zuffa would’ve hoped.
That split decision win could have been a TKO loss in the first.
Was a bit surprised at how long the ref let that go. Dead man fighting for a long time in that round. And although the Kampmann loss was close, I think it’s very telling. Condit was a freakin’ buzzsaw. Every win was a stoppage. Then he hits the UFC and goes to decision twice in a row. There was a clear change in the level of competition and his performances show it.
Lets not forget the tale of Brock Larson either…
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There are some differences, although at this point we are pretty far away from the point of my piece and nitpicking something that really has nothing to do with the topic. I wonder about the confrontational tone as well, and I think in real life I’d be trying to find a polite way to end the conversation. But, hey, it’s the internet right?
I think Condit was a strong prospect when he came to the WEC. He was different than Sonnen in a couple of ways:
1. Was just 23
2. Had a number of fights, but with lesser competition for most of his career.
Obviously ROTR put him on everyone’s map, especially the win over Trigg. Two losses kind of muddled the picture. Going into the WEC there were plenty of questions. Coming out of the WEC, I still see question marks, but he is young enough that I would still call him a prospect. I don’t rate Martin Kampmann as high as others do, so that isn’t a tremendous achievement to me, but I do think Condit has the potential to be good.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
The point is that...
your overall thesis that there’s a “WEC Illusion” is based around cherry-picking fights and fighters. Direct comparisons are hard, and predicting Henderson’s chances based on other (very different) fighters is foolish.
The article you would have written about PRIDE fighters after the first few started coming to the UFC would have been about the “PRIDE Illusion” and would have been just as silly.
And this? This isn’t confrontational – I’m just telling you that you’re wrong. You should SEE confrontational.
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It’s not cherry picking. I made a point that sometimes being a champion in the WEC doesn’t mean the same thing as being a champion in other promotions. The WEC title can be held by a prospect just starting his career, rather than one of the best fighters in the world. Nothing about that was wrong.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn’t the same point be made about the 2007 Pride emigres?
Dan Henderson was a beltholder in two Pride divisions and promptly lost both belts upon entering the UFC. Does that mean Hendo proved the ‘Pride Illusion’?
There are people inside Zuffa who believe in a Pride Illusion and to this day arrange things to prove fighters in Pride were always overrated. I tend to think they just got old.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
And, of course, there was significant mixing of UFC and Pride talent, so it isn’t really the same thing.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not Snowden, but it sounds to me like the “WEC Illusion” is that these guys are big fish for very small but well viewed fishbowls. Given how Munoz, Cantwell, Condit, and Stann have done on the UFC level, and the performances from the variety of challengers they met in the WEC in club shows, I don’t see how that isn’t true. Condit came into the UFC considered to be perhaps only a fight away from title contention and is now fighting fringe contenders in the televised undercard.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Except the perception that Condit was one fight away from title contention was a Zuffa sell. For many fans, there was no way he was that highly touted.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that what Ben Henderson: World Champion is? A Zuffa sell job?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, that’s what they all were, but some of them actually have potential. I’m talking a straight discussion versus a Zuffa sold discussion here.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
To answer the question Leland has posed, rather than argue with people intentionally misreading what I wrote yesterday, I think Henderson has tons of potential. I voted for him possibly becoming a top 5-10 fighter in the future.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you sure you want to include Munoz in there?
He is another guy who has done very well for himself in the UFC (3-1, three fight win streak).
Munoz was able to drop a weight class and has since arrived to be the, what, #21 middleweight in the world or something? Most people remember the time consciousness was separated from his body by a headkick against a guy who isn’t a striker.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
WEC was more of a stop for Munoz. Zuffa seemed content on keeping Condit and all of them at the top in the WEC.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
And the “WEC Illusion” only fits certain, cherrypicked fighters, as jemaleddin is pointing out. It’s a blanket assumption with huge holes in it.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I never intended to say that all WEC accomplishments or fighters are illusory. I make it clear which ones I am referring to. I think that is fairly clear.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you shouldn’t title an article starting with “THE WEC ILLUSION” no matter how precise you try be in the contents of the article.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Why not? It is a WEC Illusion. It doesn’t mean the WEC is itself an illusion. It is followed immediately in the headline by a colon and an explanation of the topic about to be discussed.
Besides, we’ve been discussing it for two days now, so pretending you don’t understand what the conversation is about is kind of weird.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I get what you’re saying, but it seems like you’re not realizing how you could have opened yourself up to this like of questioning. It’s all good though, we can agree to disagree.
As fir the timeline though…you didn’t even address my point yesterday, so we’ve been discussing this for…about 2 hours, actually. If you think it’s weird, then that’s on you.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Please let us know about your follow-up articles titled:
The PRIDE Illusion
The DREAM Illusion
The Strikeforce Illusion
The Bellator Illusion
….
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Which of those promotions have sold a $45 PPV with a developing prospect in the co-main event? I still don’t understand how you can’t at least acknowledge what the central argument is about.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Not that this really matters as all
I’m just curious…
But didn’t Pride sell Bushido PPV’s for close to that price with weak co main events?
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I never purchased a Pride Bushido PPV. I doubt it. Nor do I recall any Pride shows featuring fighters with a handful of pro fights, none against top level competition.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, you’re waaay off with that statement. But we’ll save that for another time.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Name one. I have a little background with the history of MMA. Even in the dying days you steal had fighters with main event pedigree even on the Bushido series. Baroni, Pulver, Minowa, Gomi, Dan Henderson all come to mind.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Bushido 10 had Paulo Cesar Silva 3rd from the top, who was 1-5 at the time.
Bushido 8’s main event featured Jean Silva, who had never fought top competition (or even outside England) at the time.
Bushido 5 had Crosley Gracie in the co-main event, who had 1 pro fight.
I could go on. Pride had many fighters with a decided lack of pro fights on their cards.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Setting aside the fact that Bushido (or Pride for that matter with a few exceptions like Shamrock-Frye) was not promoted on PPV the same way the WEC was…
…The other fighters in those battles were both former or current champions in Japan. They weren’t a battle of prospects. Those were feature fights for established stars, the equivalent to what you might see on HBO or Showtime as opposed to on PPV.
Jean Silva was probably about as established as Ben Henderson is and had fought two UFC veterans. Those, I will agree, were not good headliners. There’s a reason Bushido failed at the marketplace…
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
More to the point he still seems to think I am arguing that all WEC fighters are overrated or some other nonsense, which I clearly am not.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t see how someone might be able to glean that from your article, no matter what point you were trying to make overall?
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
Sir, you make no sense...
he still seems to think I am arguing that all WEC fighters are overrated or some other nonsense, which I clearly am not
Your article blatantly states that WEC fighters are ranked (or rated) too high and have been for a long time.
Is the fact that there was a PPV really the center or any part of the arguement?
How how about a UFC illusion then…
Dan Henderson, Arlovski, Silvia left the UFC as top tier fighters only to get beat promptly.
This proves that no UFC fighter can compete with top international and Strikeforce talent.
…um yeah right…
Just because Stann, Condit and whoever else didn’t light the world on fire when they left, doesn’t mean it is impossible…
Any idea to that effect is quite short sighted…
Ben Henderson isn’t a lesser fighter because he holds a WEC strap.
Right. Ben Henderson is a prospect. He hasn’t been proven to be above or below the world class as of yet, having never competed against it. So I guess the argument Snowden makes repeatedly is that prospects shouldn’t be on the level of coheadliner for a PPV. Go figure. Crazy talk.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Is it beyond imagination that a fight fan would be interesting the Henderson vs Cerrone 2 because of it’s potential to be an exciting fight?
Isn’t that enough…
On another note…
Shouldn’t the article have been called WEC has no fighters worthy of a PPV and all of their fighters are crap.
Nevermind the comments about Steve Cantwell, Brian Stann, and Carlos Condit, but…
Brown was a career long journeyman.
Faber was a 135 pounder masquerading as a featherweight.
My question is, what does that make Aldo?
The fact is the WEC consistently puts on good fights and this card was as good if not better than anything else over the last month or two. Because of this, people were willing to pay.
Why is that crazy?
Do I have to explain what I wrote to you in gory detail? Henderson is a prospect. In five years he might be UFC champion. He might end up as a mid-range player. He might get hit by a truck. I don’t dismiss his potential and I don’t use the term prospect lightly. It means he is someone worth watching.
I respect Henderson as a fighter. I don’t think, however, that the co-main event position on a $45 PPV card is the correct place for a prospect to be fighting. This isn’t a shot at Henderson in particular. It is a general statement. A prospect should be developing on the undercard.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Was Condit a prospect?
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Right, I think a lot of people are arguing apples to oranges. This article is regarding his potential, and I used some of your comparisons to elaborate on my argument. Jonathan’s overall argument didn’t sway into my argument. It was completely different in that he talked about PPV status rather than my own argument of top ten status. Different subjects.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sonnen was a veteran, but he wasn’t, by any means, a consistent fighter beating top notch competition. When he came into the WEC, he was mostly dubbed a guy who didn’t quite have the skills to beat top ten competition. Losing to Horn three times, showing poor submission defense against Filho in their first encounter, being submitted by Sobral, and being TKO’d by Martin didn’t help his case.
In some ways, we could make a comparison. Henderson is fighting that level of talent now, and Sonnen had beaten that level of talent before his rise in the WEC and where he is today. Obviously, Sonnen is up in the top three now due to some huge improvements. Henderson can do the same potentially.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Sonnen?
…as much as I dislike him.
Bob Arum thinks I'm a white Nazi skinhead even though I'm a brown grad student (with hair)
I think he should make the jump to UFC right now. I mean, does he plan on staying in WEC forever? No, so why risk losing and deteriorating in the WEC? Go get a pay increase and contend. Bendos got some legit skillz. Theres really no one he can fight in WEC anymore, mostly rematches. Maybe even a WEC Champ vs UFC Champ if Frankie Edgar wins the rematch with BJ.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Champ vs Champ will never happen. Look at the predecents set for other champs. Sonnen got Maia. Condit got Kampmann. Cantwell got Razak Al Hassan. I think Henderson is a good fighter but I’d put him top 15 maybe, I think he’s probably better off for another while in the WEC
"If I had a green shirt on, a pink shirt, a blue shirt, If I had a fuckin' tie-dyed Hawaiian shirt from 1952, Bobby still won that fight" Forrest Griffin
There are still options for Henderson at 155 in the WEC. If Shalorus can get past Varner, he deserves a shot. As much as I hate Varner, he probably deserves a rematch. Henderson has said that he doesn’t want to do rematches forever, but Shane Roller is close to earning another opportunity if he hasn’t already. Faber could move up. There’s no need to bring him up anytime soon.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I think Henderson is a good, young fighter. He certainly has room to grow and appears to be making strides every time we see him (Cerrone on the other hand….) He reminds me a lot of a young Diego Sanchez, good wrestling, incredible gas tank, just beat you with will and positional control and sometimes a submission for good measures. Diego has evolved quite a bit since his early days and has seemingly hit his ceiling recently, I see a similar path for Henderson…
cantwell
guys what, like 23/24 now? Huge potential, Luis Cane is a tough dude and that fight was a war. Stann had everything to lose against Davis but made a fight of it and i’m excited to see if he can be better at MW, he wasn’t a monstrous LHW just very strong… plus he’s had under 10 fights in his career so i definitely wouldn’t count either out yet. If you were trying to say that we saw potential in doug marshall i would have to disagree wholeheartedly, but these guys are so young they definitely have the skills to compete. In terms of LW, i would take the top three of those guys to be middle of the road in LW… Benderson has solid grappling skills and enough standing skills to defend against a huge puncher like varner so i like his chances. Right now, you are correct that hes a mid to late teen ranking but in my opinion a person can only progress to the level of the next fighter they’re facing, so if Benderson lost a few fights in the UFC it wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. I HATE that Cerrone lost so easily but I do think it was a fluke, although I’m almost tired of defending him at this point. I do believe he’s top 25 in the world though, Varner as well. A lot of these guys’ weaknesses are the fact they’ve fought and dominated lesser competition and have yet to step up and fight very tough guys so they can see how much they need to truly improve
and also, WTF ever happened with Cantwell… i remember all the talk about his career in jeopardy and then no follow up, does anyone know?
by Austin Martin on Apr 27, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember when BJ was training for Diego?
…and he brought in Bendo as a training partner to help him with his wrestling?
What, exactly, does that say to you?
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That Ben wanted to go to Hawaii?
When we pull our pants down in front of teacher which way should we stand? I mean do we show her our butts or our weiners?
by Earl Montclair on Apr 27, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
EXACTLY.
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That BJ is jealous of his hair?
"If I had a green shirt on, a pink shirt, a blue shirt, If I had a fuckin' tie-dyed Hawaiian shirt from 1952, Bobby still won that fight" Forrest Griffin
This is the most likely scenario. I think BJ would be jealous of Krusty the Klown’s hair though.
When we pull our pants down in front of teacher which way should we stand? I mean do we show her our butts or our weiners?
by Earl Montclair on Apr 27, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
that bj likes good looking ethnic guys?
by Austin Martin on Apr 27, 2010 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Who doesn't?!
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BJ wants to show other fighters that Loco Moco and Poi is delicious?
When we pull our pants down in front of teacher which way should we stand? I mean do we show her our butts or our weiners?
by Earl Montclair on Apr 27, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I'm not trying to make any particular point...
…other than that BJ thinks that Bendo is a guy at an appropriate level to train with and learn from (and teach, obviously). Pretending that Bendo is some super-green fighter is silly when he’s got the respect of a guy like BJ.
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30 people voted for outside top 15…really people? I think you just wanna hate on the WEC guys. Who are these 15 guys in the UFC that you would say would beat him? (btw, I voted between 5 and 10)
Finally a non tito related story
Anyways I’d say bendo vs lauzon would be a decent fight
Consider yourself warned, im offensive and creative like handicap porn
by II SMASH II on Apr 27, 2010 1:26 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
i’d like cerrone vs fisher/stout, bendo vs. daddy, and varner vs. guillard
by Austin Martin on Apr 27, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, your spelling confused me
STAPH. He’s talking about STAPH.
I really expected to go over there and see crazy shit the Middle Easy writers had gotten throughout their lives.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
by Tim Burke on Apr 27, 2010 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Already top 10
MMAWeekly already has him in the top 10 and Sherdog will have him there when they update the rankings so this question doesn’t make any sense.
That says more about those awful rankings than it does about Ben. I am as big a fan of his as anyone (see above), but he hasn’t done nearly enough to deserve that kind of lofty ranking … yet.
LOL, except he isn’t top ten right now by any means. Only in some bizarre subjective way is he top ten.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Anyone that says Bendo doesn’t even have the POTENTIAL to be top 10 is delusional.
Look no further than a guy like Rashad Evans for proof. Ben Henderson is a MUCH more promising prospect than Rashad Evans was. Evans was considered one of the worst fighters on TUF 2 and even after winning it, he still didn’t garner much respect. If you tried to tell anyone back in 2005 that Rashad Evans was going to be a UFC champion and no-brainer top 10 fighter, they would have laughed at you.
Henderson has a ton of potential. He’s a very good athlete, has shown tons of heart, has a solid wrestling and submission base, endless cardio, and is still young. It wouldn’t shock me at all if he winds up winning a UFC title two or three years down the road. He’s not there yet, but to deny his long-term potential is foolish.
unfortunately 2 or 3 years will be smack in the middle of aldo’s 10 year lightweight powning
by Austin Martin on Apr 27, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't you say:
They are the lightweight equivalents of Steve Cantwell, Brian Stann, and Carlos Condit.
Just as easily as:
They are the lightweight equivalents of Aldo and Cruz
Without any cross polination / promotion it is impossible to know.
I don’t think so.
Cantwell, Stann and Condit were in divisions in which the UFC was clearly better.
Aldo and Cruz are in divisions in which the WEC is the best in the world (or tied for the best)
So Henderson being equivalent to Cantwell, Stann and Condit is accurate and makes more sense.
Aldo and Cruz’s divisions actually have a bit more crossover with Japan. For example, top Shooto featherweight Takeshi Inoue lost to Savant Young, who then lost in the U.S. at an Affliction show to L.C. Davis, who now fights in WEC.
Akitoshi Tamura also fought in WEC at 145 and 135. Takeya Mizugaki came over from Shooto. Etc.
NOPE
First, the obvious 4…
Edgar
Penn
Florian
Maynard
Now, the next 6…
T, Griffin
Sherk
J. Miller
Guida
Pellegrino
Sotiropoulos
Here’s a few guys outside of the top 10 who could give Bendo some trouble…
Bocek
Dos Anjos
Etim
Dunham
Escudero
Fisher
Gomi
Guillard
T. avares
…..
Need I go on? Snowden was right. WEC division that overlap w/ UFC divisions = inferior product
"If I wanted to spend a half hour between two hairy legs I'd go to your mother's house." -Don Frye
Bocek
Dos Anjos
Etim
Dunham
Escudero
Fisher
Gomi
Guillard
T. Tavares
Personally, I think he could beat most of those names.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably, but Bocek would be a good first UFC fight for him.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
I think Dos Anjos gives him real problems on the ground, and a better Gomi with actual wrestling (which probably won’t happen), but the rest… I’d favor Henderson.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Guillard may be on an up swing...
If Guillard keeps fighting smart fights, he is a very exciting prospect again… He is still young too…
He might be able to. Wouldn’t it be more informative to see him beat one of them rather than punk Varner again? Or beat up some other 9-0 prospect?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 27, 2010 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree...
If we reach into the top 15, I think he has exciting and probably winable fights with…
Aoki
Alvarez
Hirota
Gomi
Jim Miller
Miller and Griffin are the most intriguing fights in my mind. Miller is just as dangerous as Henderson in the scrambles, but Henderson seems to have a speed advantage in those transitions. I’d give Miller the edge in striking, although only slightly. Would be a good fight.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Those would probably be fun...
Henderson is learning so quickly… If his striking continues improve, I could easily see him as a top 10 LW within a year or so… From fight to fight the improvement he’s shown out does what I’ve seen from Griffin, Miller and some of the other young guns….
That is the fun thing about Ben…
Until a couple months ago I trained Muay Thai at The Lab (Benson’s gym) and have watched him spar with Escudero from mere feet away. While their stand-up is comparable, Ben is a much better grappler & has a far better gas tank. I’d guess Henderson wins that fight 8-10 times.
The fight of love to see is Henderson-Guida, with the loser being forced to shave his head.
by Velcro on Apr 27, 2010 11:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Those are rankings now… the question is “CAN” he gain top ten status, and the only answer is yes. If he went to the UFC and knocked off any one of those guys he’d be top ten without debate. So, the answer is yes. To use the rankings of today and say no he is not is to speak in present tence when we are debating the uncertain future.
Does anyone here honsetly think that Bendo could beat Gleison Tibau?
"If I wanted to spend a half hour between two hairy legs I'd go to your mother's house." -Don Frye
Absolutely.
His last fight aside, Tibau is mostly a plodding takedown and control guy. I think Bendo would wrestle circles around him and demolish him in the scrambles with his quickness.
Henderson is a beast!!
I was just discussing this with my jiu jitsu instructor last night. Henderson is a purple belt and my instructor is a legit black belt. It took my instructor a long time, and a lot of tricky transitions, to get Bendo to tap. Dude is crafty, athletic, and young. He absolutely has top 10 potential.
Short memories
Just last fight Varner was beating him the entire way until he got caught in a quick sub. Varner was being sloppy bc he was dominating
Massive overhype going on right now
Varner winning until he was finished isn't saying much.
by Brandon Starr on Apr 27, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Up until Saturday I would have taken Varner in the rematch for that reason.
"I am a man who pisses largely and frequently, which they say is a sign of great mental activity" -Henry Miller-
Cerrone was winning until they started fighting.
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Brett Rogers was winning until… BOOOOM, Headshot!
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by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Shogun was winning...
…until the judges turned in their cards.
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Huge Bendo fan but I'll be the first to admit his standup needs work.
I firmly believe he dominates Varner on the ground though.
by Brandon Starr on Apr 27, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Just last fight Varner was beating him the entire way until he got caught in a quick sub
The same could be said of Varner’s UFC loss to Franca. Varner was running a clinic on Hermes for the first 13 minutes of that fight. Varner nearly beat a guy who was fighting for the UFC LW title less than a year later.
If Varner could give a UFC title contender a rough time, there is no shame in Ben struggling to put him away.
I’m going to make the same point that I made in the comments section of Jonathan’s article:
Condit was considered legit based on his performance in the ROTR 175lbs tourney. He finished Trigg and Verissimo, both in under two minutes, back when those guys still mattered. He then lost a tough decision to Jake Shields in the finals.
He does not belong in the same category as Stann and Cantwell.
Or Sonnen.
Or Aldo, for that matter. At which point you have to wonder what point he’s really trying to make about Henderson when the data is so muddy.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
You either didn’t read my article or are incapable of understanding it, focusing instead on some minutiae that wasn’t central to the argument. I give you permission to strike Condit from the virtual record. He doesn’t fit well in the group of inexperienced WEC champions with Henderson, Stann, and Cantwell.
Aldo, of course, is working his way through the best FW’s that Zuffa can gather. The FW and BW divisions really have little to do with this argument.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Again
You either didn’t read my article or are incapable of understanding it, focusing instead on some minutiae that wasn’t central to the argument.
The problem is that you opened that can of worms with your choice of words in the article. Yes, it wasn’t the point you were making with the post. The problem is that you left it wide open to be countered with arguments like these. And now you seemingly don’t understand why there’s a point to be made.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
The actual problem is that the overall point you made is indefensible.
And you’re now slowly narrowing and narrowing it to the point where it doesn’t mean anything and certainly doesn’t apply to what you actually wrote.
All that you can actually predict from the careers of Sonnen, Philho (for kicks), Stann, Cantwell, and Condit about the future of Henderson is that it’s anybody’s guess how he’d do in the UFC. You’re larger point is just silly.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
You are still not understanding what I wrote. That is fine.
“Prospects have their place: it’s on the undercard.”
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I am going to boil down his point for you:
That the pool of talent is so small in the WEC that we can only consider Henderson a prospect. He may turn out great but at his point, until he’s tested in deeper waters, he’s a more experienced Phil Davis.
And since he is a prospect should we be paying $45 for a card with a prospect as the co-headliner? He never says he might not turn out great, or that he didn’t belong on the card. He was asking if a ppv card should have feature fights as co-main events that have so little divisional or historical relevance?
And his point about it giving a green-light to promoters to create top fighters to keep purses down is a pertinent one.
That’s super for Zuffa, although heavy.com is not a traditional source for PPV numbers. If anything, this just means they have a green light to feed fans shows with progressively less name talent, until it becomes very similar to boxing. This will have serious consequences for all the fighters outside the main event level, since it is clear they can draw even without well established top level pros.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It's on F4W as well
As stated in the article. But I know that’s not your point.
As for your argument about drawing power, I disagree. But I’ll stop for today. Thank you for the discussion Mr. Snowden, it was informative. You might think I’m a tool or something, that’s up to you. I appreciate the time you took either way.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
I enjoyed the discussion. It’s fun to argue some of these issues knowing, at the end of the day, you and I have a ton in common and have a million shared experiences watching and enjoying MMA.
by Jonathan Snowden on Apr 27, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Here is your key line from the earlier discussion:
If they are able to sell this (meaning the Henderson/Cerrone fight as an actual title match – nottheface) to fans as a legitimate PPV headliner, I feel bad for the fighters down the road. It will be a clear sign that only the very top guys need to be paid at a respectable level. They can literally sell anything else in the other slots as long as it’s "exciting."I think the fear for fans of the sport of mma is that they may be dwarfed in numbers by fans of the spectacle of mma. If most (80-90%) are really casual fans, what is to stop a promoter from hyping someone into a world beater and selling it to us as a meaningful fight. Why pay a top fighter what they ask when you can pay someone less and hype them as a champ or world beater. This has huge ramifications for the fighters, in their ability to leverage for larger purses, and for us, as we could potentially miss out on watching the actual best fight the best.
Not completely convinced, although yes… those fights did help him. I think the big one was his win over Larson. If I remember correctly, A LOT of people thought Larson would steamroll him with his wrestling, and Condit pulled it off quickly.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah – that win definitely helped, but the point I was trying to make was that he wasn’t some bum with an inflated record that was being sold as a world champion. He had solid wins on his record before coming to the WEC.
I totally agree with you though, the Larson win definitely made everyone sit up and take notice.
Don’t see how Henderson being champion (of the world) like those other blokes is significant at all. Henderson’s skill-set is what will be put to the test in the UFC, not some superstition about former crossover champions.
So, how does BenHen’s style and skills translate against top-ten UFC lightweights? Now that’s interesting… but even if he were to be relegated into UFC lightweight obscurity, it wouldn’t be because of Carlos Condit or Brian Stann; it also isn’t likely, because Henderson is much more well-rounded than those other guys, and the competition in the WEC is better now.
Bring on the haters!
Haven’t been impressed with Henderson at all. To me he is one dimensional and boring at that. Sure this last fight was good but all he does is tackle and hold. He is a Po mans Jon fitch who is a Po mans GSP so I don’t know what that makes him.
PlayIng matchmaker for first post-merger bouts
Henderson-Sherk
Cerrone-Danzig
Roller-Tibau
Njokuani-Siver
Pettis-Cole Miller
Varner-Guillard
by dribblebib on Apr 27, 2010 3:41 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Good one. I forgot about the prince.
by dribblebib on Apr 27, 2010 3:54 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Diaz has moved up to welterweight.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Apr 27, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
And is hoping to move back down for his next fight as of the last we heard.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
I can beat up my little brothers
Over and over again. Quite convincingly, too. Am I top 10?
LMAO
They’re all bigger than me now though. I’m 24 and married, but I still have to prove to myself that I can take them down. One of my brothers is 6’3" and I’m only 5’6". I tell him that he will never beat me in basketball and he’ll never kick my ass, so I have to back it up. Just friendly competition.
Now that I think of it, I’m stepping way outside of my weight class, so maybe I’m top 10 P4P.
24 and married.
You’ve already lost.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 27, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
As young as he is
It hardly makes sense to say what exactly he could achieve in the length of his prospective career
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