Walking the Walk: A Proposal to Fold the Bantamweight and Featherweight Divisions into the UFC
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 5:00 PM EDT
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Early patterns indicate a strong showing for Aldo vs. Faber on PPV. Say what you will about Dana White, the man knows how to promote and has the infrastructure to do it well. I think the key lesson coming out of this show is that the UFC's fans are willing to pay to see smaller fighters. That being proven, it's time to fold the Bantamweight and Featherweight Divisions into the UFC.
There are a whole number of reasons why, many of which have been articulated over and over again, so I won't rehash them here. Simply put, the UFC should be the home of elite fighters at all major weight classes. I believe Featherweight and Bantamweight belong among the major weight classes, and as such they should be featured in the top organization. That being said, a pure merger doesn't make sense. It creates conflicts with Comcast, puts the WEC's employees out of work, and puts too big of a promotional burden on the UFC without the relief of a secondary organization.
It's one thing to insist upon a merger, but most people fail to describe a plan that makes sense. In this piece I'll set forth a plan that will attempt to meet the following goals:
--Improve the current UFC product by replacing middling bigger fighters with elite smaller fighters.
--Enable stars at Bantamweight and Featherweight to earn a living.
--Enable fans and athletes to determine the true top fighters at Bantamweight and Featherweight.
--Introduce UFC fans to the personalities of the smaller fighters in the WEC.
--Allow WEC employees to keep their jobs.
--Keep Versus and Comcast happy.
The plan I propose is fairly simple. Generally speaking, it involves folding the Featherweight and Bantamweight divisions into the UFC while continuing to use the WEC as a developmental league. There's no reason a company like Bellator should be grabbing prospects like Ben Askren while the UFC can't even find proper prospects for its reality show. I'd suggest setting a rule where fighters with less than a certain number of professional fights must cut their teeth in the WEC before joining the UFC. These shows would be on Versus. Of course, there are occasional big draws and incredible prospects that belong in the UFC right away, so they could have a mechanism for waiving the rule. This is the fight game after all, there is room for exceptions.
Folding in two new divisions into the UFC will be no easy task. Fans care about fighters they can relate to, and they need to get to know these fighters. Just adding a bunch of fighters in won't do any good. In order to make sure UFC fans have an attachment to these newcomers, I propose a special season of The Ultimate Fighter featuring the actual top fighters of the Featherweight and Bantamweight divisions, minus Urijah Faber, Miguel Torres, Jose Aldo, and Dominick Cruz. The coaches for the season would be Urijah Faber and Miguel Torres, who would meet each other in a Bantamweight dream fight at the end of the season. Meanwhile, the winners at 135 and 145 would get a shot at the respective champions a few months after the finale. From a practical perspective, you could even arrange for Aldo and Cruz to have title defenses against top contenders during the ongoing season to keep them active.
The above-described plan would accomplish a number of things. It would introduce the fans to all the stars of the Bantamweight and Featherweight divisions, while simultaneously featuring the two strongest stars in the WEC to date. You would get immediate contenders in both weight classes, a dream fight, a future contender at 135, and extensive fan recognition of the actual top stars in these weight classes.
There are small issues remaining, including loe pay for living in the house and whether these stars would actually be willing to go into the house for 6 weeks. These are minor issues that the UFC can easily handle.
As far as the current WEC 155 division goes, I'd recommend taking the top fighters in the class and simply moving them into the current lightweight division. Frankly, I don't expect a whole lot of these lightweights to do all that well in the UFC, but they deserve a chance.
The elephant in the room is Comcast, the cable giant that owns Versus and NBC. The UFC is excited about their partnership with Comcast, and they have no desire to jeopardize it. In order to get Comcast on board for something like this, they'd probably need to give Versus a few more UFC shows a year. The UFC could either add 3-4 more "UFC on Versus" events or they could give Versus two major European UFC events per year (think UFC 105).
In the end, folding the Bantamweight and Featherweight divisions into the UFC while simultaneously keeping the WEC alive is the best option for everyone. It gives Zuffa more title fights to headline UFC shows with, it allows smaller fighters to earn the money they deserve, it enables fighters to sort out who the truly elite fighters are at the smaller weight classes, it would allow most of the employees at the WEC to keep their jobs, and it could keep Comcast happy with a few concessions.
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wow great idea about the TUF
doing it like TUF 4 would really work out and introduce these fighters to a huge group of people
Yeah. I really like the idea too...
I have been saying for ages that more weight classes in the UFC is a good thing. More weight classes means titles, which mean more PPV’s with a title fight, which means more value for the fans and ultimately, more buys for the UFC…
It should be a win win.
Zuffa making the WEC look like a place for world class talent does damaghe to the idead that UFC is the same thng as cage fighting.
While I was watching the WEC card people were calling it a UFC and talking about the free UFC they saw on CBS a couple weeks ago. That kind of thing is good for the organization. It is like Bandaids and Q-tips a name that becomes equal to the product.
I’d rather not change something that isn’t broken, adding 2 more divisions to the UFC would create more problems than it solves. Plus the WEC works better as the place for the best fighters below 155 instead of just another b league org.
UFC can only do so many shows a year
and they can only do so many fights per show.
Adding new weight classes to the UFC? This likely means fighters getting cut in higher weight classes, which would lead to shallower talent pools. Strikeforce would also pick up these cut fighters (think Henderson, Diaz, Lawler) and be in a more competitive position with the UFC for PPV $$$.
IMO
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
but wouldn’t these “cut” fighters just go to the (revamped) WEC?
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Apr 27, 2010 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we talking sending people to the minors or having to sign a new contract with the WEC? I guess it depends.
Sweet username.
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
Ha, thanks. It was the name of my first band. We were… not good.
"The common denominator of the Universe is not harmony, but chaos, hostility, and murder."
by Ephemeral Artery on Apr 27, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Generally speaking, it involves folding the Featherweight and Bantamweight divisions into the UFC while continuing to use the WEC as a developmental league.
Does Versus own a part of the WEC? If they have any say in the matter, I can imagine they wouldn’t be too happy about being relegated to the home of the “Ultimate Development Championship”
I somehow missed your last paragraph where you describe a potential solution to the problem..
The elephant in the room is Comcast, the cable giant that owns Versus and NBC. The UFC is excited about their partnership with Comcast, and they have no desire to jeopardize it. In order to get Comcast on board for something like this, they’d probably need to give Versus a few more UFC shows a year.
I offer another potential solution. A common complaint with current UFC fighters are not enough fights/events with too much time in between. The UFC will be absorbing more weight classes, and obviously more fighters, which will create even longer times. I think this will enevitably lead to more events.
In addition to having a “development league”, give Versus “The Ultimate Fighter”. In turn create a bi-monthly “Friday-Night Fights” (similar to what boxing did on ESPN) on Spike. An hour and a half long show every two weeks, showing a few live fights with a 15 minute-or-so countdown, or get-to-know-you thing on an up-and-coming fighter. This would allow for more fights, make all parties happy, and allow for better promotion of new fighters.
by WestbergIDFC on Apr 27, 2010 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Another idea
I was thinking about how there is too big a layoff too. The idea I had was the UFC absorbs the WEC weight classes and kills WEC as a promotion but keeps the production teams and most the workers.
That way the UFC has two groups within it that can go to a city and put on a show, thus allowing them to stage events more frequently without burning out their staff. They can put one set of shows on Versus as the UFC on Versus shows with the similar level of talent as the Fight Nights on Spike and even throw in the odd UK UFC event to seal the deal. This way no network gets tagged as a minor league.
Dana made a comment recently (defending lying about Tito) that Spike pays for TUF so I doubt they will let that go. There’s no reason Zuffa can’t make a second, different reality show for Versus though.
by Roll for Life on Apr 28, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Fedor asks dana white to talk:
Fedor’s twitter:
http://twitter.com/femelianenko
@danawhite let’s start new negotiations in July….ok?
Yeah...
that was already debunked as a fake account a while back…..
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
You forgot about one thing: Spike. The current Spike deal allows only a limited number of UFC shows outside of Spike.
In addition, unless the UFC ran even more shows, they would have to cut 50-60 fighters already on the roster and leave each division that much thinner. Think about all of the problems the UFC had late last year, early this year. You would end up having to scrap bouts completely instead of simply finding a replacement fighter since they would have fewer guys to draw from.
My own feeling is that Versus and Zuffa need to step up and promote the WEC more. There is no reason why they should not hit 500k for even the weakest shows and 7-900 for the stronger ones. You mentioned Bellator, but you will note that no numbers have actually be released. Does anyone think Bellator is doing even 400k per show? Turning the WEC into an official minor league would likely cause the numbers to drop far lower and make each show a money loser.
This is incorrect information. I know this is widely disseminated, but it’s wrong, I know for a fact they are still having negotiations with various cable networks about adding shows. I believe the total is closer to 4-6, nobody knows the contract but the item that came out is wrong as far as I know.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the correction
I forget where I read it but it was something I regarded as a reputable source of info at the time.
Michael,
Would you suggest they cut fighters to make room for the 40-60 new fighters, or increase the overall number of shows? If fighters are not cut, you would need to run another 5-7 shows on top of what they already do.
I would suggest cutting quite a few mid-level journeymen level fighters. I think you could really knock off 25 fighters from their five divisions without a sweat. If you add a few shows on Versus, and move some fighters down to the developmental league, I think you can make it work.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 8:01 PM EDT up reply actions
what you forgot to mention
was the UFC absorbing the WEC’s ring girls. Palmer is by far the hottest Zuffa signed ring girl, she deserves to be in the major leagues.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
In a vacuum
I think that’s an excellently devised strategy to fold everything together. In reality, I don’t think Zuffa will ever do it in one step. Instead, I see them folding the WEC LW division into the UFC when they are ready to unveil the new WEC 125 lb division (Flyweight?). It will then be some time while contracts with networks expire and the UFC continues to grow before the rest of the classes get folded in as well. One of my core assumptions here is that the WEC will never be able to function on only 2 divisions. The TUF idea is fantastic though, and clearly the right way to utilize the show for the benefit of the organization.
by Cocytus on Apr 27, 2010 5:21 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Could you have too many divisions in one promotion?
UFC currently has 5 divisions. If you ad two more divisions a 50+ fighters, could you have too many fighters for the casual fans to follow?
by snakecharmer1340 on Apr 27, 2010 5:22 PM EDT reply actions
PPVs and title fights
Adding weight classes, and by extension title fights, would be nice. In 2009, there were 13 PPVs and only 8 title fights for the 5 current UFC titles. Adding featherweight and bantamweight would give 3 – 4 more title fights per year. Eventually adding flyweight and possibly a 220lb. or 225lb. division would practically guarantee a title fight on every card.
by FragglesHateKos on Apr 27, 2010 5:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Many of us have said the same, so I’ll keep it short and just vote YES, please!
by Kwisatz Haderach on Apr 27, 2010 5:34 PM EDT reply actions
Rambling man
I agree about revamping TUF – but I’d like to see it less of an elimination tournament since it’s common practice to see TUF “losers” still make it into the UFC and in some cases fare better than the winner of said season.
I’d also like to see it move away from the “16 random dudes in a house yelling, cussing, drinking and smashing and oh, here’s three minutes worth of actual fighting” formula which is beyond tired. I don’t even watch TUF anymore – I wonder if other people are just as tired of it as I am. It needs more variety week to week.
In fact, can we just have a new UFC show and shitcan the Ultimate Fighter altogether?
Get rid of the ramp!
I like this idea…. that is why i wrote this a few weeks ago:
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/2/25/1326750/wec-ufcs-farm-system
by davidhamilton83 on Apr 27, 2010 5:36 PM EDT reply actions
Does Comcast want a product where none of the guys are presented as elite talent? Zuffa wasn’t just careful not to mention the WEC at all during the WEC’s own show, they were careful not to make comparisons to the UFC’s fighters too. If they make it into a straight up farm league, its tough to see how they’re going to avoid that forever.
It seems more likely to me given how AldofaberPPV did that they’d add more weight classes to the WEC and not bring guys over. Just run more belts and more PPVs.
I just want an all out merging.
It doesn’t make sense to put on a PPV but not promote the promotion it’s for. Either the UFC or WEC should’ve been HEAVILY promoted during the PPV. Calling it “Aldo vs. Faber” and not mentioning any organization is just a missed opportunity in my opinion. The lighter weight classes (even the proposed 125 class) deserve just as credibility and backing as any other weight class. Saturday night was a clear indication exactly why those fighters should fight for the UFC: They’re some of the best in the world. Plain and simple. Why shouldn’t the best fighters fight in the UFC regardless of their weight class? Either call it the WEC and promote the shit out of it like a legit organization or call it the UFC. Just don’t jerk customers around thinking it’s something it’s not. Having it all be under the UFC umbrella makes a lot of sense to me.
my thought on the matter is that they should label ALL the divisions as UFC...
… but keep the lower weight (135, 145, and eventually 125) non-marquee fights on versus, while continuing to do non-marquee 155-265 fights on spike (via fight nights and tuf finales). that way there’s still two factions of the ufc, occupying the two different networks, and they save the cream of the crop title fights and high-profile matchups (like a faber/torres) from each faction, for the pay per view cards.
in a perfect world, that would be my ideal situation, but i’m sure there’s some legal restrictions that keep it from happening.
either way, i doubt they’ll do any kind of “folding” until their versus contract runs out, or the nbc sports/comcast programming chips start falling into place. can someone remind me when the versus contract runs til?
oh ok… i think you asked me the same question in an earlier discussion, and must’ve missed my response. yeah, i’ve been living over behind the old library, in the center of town, for about three years (while my lady goes back to school). she graduates in a couple weeks, then it’s off to wherever she finds work. small world!
and yes… the card for 118 is shaping up to be sick. i wouldn’t be too heartbroken if she had trouble finding a job, and we had to stay in town til august!
A nice bit of speculation, ideas and fantasies
But not realistic. The plan has been for some time to add a 125lb class to WEC and fold the lightweights into the UFC. This was reiterated recently by white and even then he still didn’t offer a definite timetable for it. I doubt that their current infrastructure and card schedule could support it effectively. I like the idea they currently have for the future, there are loads of talented 125lb fighters just itching to get into MMA. Particularly in Amateur wrestling. And I think it could make the WEC even more entertaining. Without really making them look like a development league and keeping 3 weight divisions of their own and distinctive from the UFC.
Nice thoughts but it will never happen. Comcast doesn’t want a UFC farm system, even if they got 2 extra UFC cards a year. They are trying to use WEC like Spike uses UFC, i.e. UFC Unleashed, TUF, and all their other UFC programming. Having reruns of developmental league fights is not going to do very good numbers. I expect their to be a WEC version of TUF sometime soon.
Dana has already said they were going to fold the WEC LW division into the UFC once they add flyweight to the WEC, so that much is guaranteed.
At the most I can see Zuffa having UFC WEC co PPV’s where there is a mix of fights from each organization. That wouldn’t violate any of their TV contracts, promotes both brands simultaneously, gives more money and exposure to the WEC fighters, and provides for more title fights. Outside of PPV, there really isn’t a need to merge the organizations, so co UFC WEC PPV’s seems like a better answer than an all out merger, development league situation.
Rome is spot on
All the histrionics over “too many people in the UFC” are solved by shipping all the middling fighters to the WEC…….like Rome said in the article. The UFC gets the best, with better options to keep them active, and the second tier fighters have a home.
certified warlord
Just like pro basesball players being sent to Tripe-A to shore up their game.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
And as I said, it would result in more canceled fights because it would be harder for the UFC to find replacement fighters for those fights. If there is a MW bout slated for UFC 142, and one of them gets hurt, they have fewer replacements and are more likely to have to cancel the bout, leaving the remaining fighter screwed.
WEC took a big step towards creating new stars on Saturday. A better step would be to spend time and money building the WEC. If, as has been suggested, Comcast plans on turning Versus into a legit sports channel, the WEC will benefit from it.
The UFC routinely calls people up outside of the company to fill-in as replacements.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
That would give a fighter in the development league who is doing well a shot to prove himself in the UFC. Just like baseball.
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
more cancelled fights?
Huh? They would have fighters from the WEC to call upon, not to mention just shifting in other (145/135) weight classes if that wasn’t possible. MORE options, not less.
certified warlord
you are right and great post Michael Rome.
The “problem” Zuffa have been dealing with the last year is lagging PPV numbers, fighters being injured and undeserving fighters promoted to the PPV. WEC can help fill in the holes for UFC PPV’s. Then Zuffa/Versus and WEC can develop the WEC version of TUF. The current TUF on Spike can continue unfettered. WEC’s version will completely different but, with the same goal in mind. To generate PPV interest, build the WEC brand, drive viewers to VS. network and introduce the WEC fighters to fans.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Not necessarily a huge issue, but the WEC cage which is designed to fit the smaller fighters and also foster more action.
Good luck catching the speed demons in the Octagon.
IMO they should make UFC cage smaller anyway. Probably right in the middle of their current one and WEC’s. I think Joe Silva wants this as well.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 27, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
the fold should happen these lighter weight guys shouldn’t be reduced to get small paydays because they are small in stature furthermore they always put on good fights how can good fights ever be a bad thing
It's the boxing mentality
Most of marquee fighters are the heavyweights, at least in the past anyway. I It makes sense, because bigger guys punch harder and boxing is a punching sport. This doesn’t necessarily apply to MMA, because punching is only one part of this diverse sport. Hopefully they will realize that these lighter weight classes are ready for the mainstream.
When was the last time a Boxing Heavyweight made a ton of cheddar though? Those days have been looooooong gone.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 27, 2010 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The Klitschkos still make a ton of money. Outside of Floyd and Manny, I’d say Heavyweights still make the most.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 27, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say youre wrong. Maybe SC from Bad Left Hook can chime in?
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 27, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s a second tier of guys under Floyd and Manny that the Klitschkos are definitely in. They do crazy business in Germany. The last two Wladimir Klitschko fights were in soccer stadiums. So is the next Vitali Klitschko bout. Both of Wladimir’s fights exceeded 50,000 in attendance, so will Vitali’s.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 28, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
I like this idea.
Also they should make that the final TUF. Bring in a new show featuring the WEC.
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
Just as a general response to the “it can never happen” people. Of course it can. This is a very fluid industry, before they re-signed with Versus they seriously considered prospects of a merger. There are all sorts of deals and items each side can concede to make it work. There are moving pieces, the question is whether they want to do it or if they like the idea of not paying these small guys any money. Ultimately, that is what it comes down to, and they may like it the way it is.
The one thing that frustrates me as a fan of seeing the best compete is the fact that we really don’t know who the natural best at 145 is. I say this because at least 25% of UFC lightweights could feasibly make Featherweight, but they simply will not do it for financial and exposure reasons. If the division was popularized and mainstream in the UFC, everyone would do what they do for every other UFC division: fight at the lowest weight you can cut to.
great point about the 145 division. do you think the better-than-expected ratings for last weeks show, and smaller pool to swim in, will encourage any of the middle of the road ufc lightweights to make the drop down? seems like guys like gamburyan, who have made the drop, have kept their existing deals, so the only sacrifice they’d be making would be the bragging rights of being on the ufc roster. but if there’s a likelihood they would end up on ppv, i could see that being less of an issue.
The general paydays are far less. I guess Gamburyan could keep his, but let’s think about a guy like Kenny Florian. Could he make 145? I don’t know. He makes it a long way down to 155, but he’s been on the record talking about how easy the cut is for him now. After losing to BJ, if the division existed in the UFC on PPV, I bet you he would have dropped down to fight a contender and then go for Jose Aldo. Would Aldo beat Kenny Florian? I’d like to find out. Could Aldo stop Frankie Edgar’s shot? I’d like to find out. But why in the world would Florian take this risk when he can make UFC PPV bonuses potentially?
In some ways, it turns WEC divisions into semi-equivalents of what happens in Japan: MMA without the huge water cutting wrestlers (except for those whose careers have washed out).
There’s another issue of the lack of pay and exposure disincentivizing small athletes from getting into MMA. Take Henry Cejudo, 2008 Olympic gold winner in wrestling who appears to be choosing boxing over MMA because you can’t make any money on sponsors or on your purse at 135. It stunts the athletic growth of the sport.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i absolutely see your point about the higher caliber ufc lightweights having no interest in dropping down. was just curious if you thought the success of saturday’s ppv would encourage any of the non-elite guys to do it. still wouldn’t achieve the ideal scenario, of a true best-of-the-best division, but it would fill out the wec version a bit more, and give them a few more names to market.
All the latest news on Cejudo is that he is choosing Wrestling and competing at the 2012 Olympic games, or possibly choosing MMA. Haven’t read anything recent about him trying to box professionally.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 27, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The smaller guys are making more today than 2 years ago.
And will likely be making more two years from now. In many ways, the WEC is where the UFC was 5 or 6 years ago.
Prior to the ppv, Faber and Torres stated they made low six figures. With time and promotion, that will continue to grow. Especially as Bellator runs FW fights. Ideally SF will start as well.
Even if they moved over to the UFC, it would still be a year or so before those weight classses had any drawing power. Even now, only a few LWs draw viewers or buys and they have been working on the LW division for a few years.
WEC just signed a multi-year extension with Versus, makes things a lot less fluid. I completely understand and agree with your point about the 145lb division, but it’s going to be a few years, if ever. I think the WEC salaries will start to go up, just like the UFC salaries did. It’s unfortunate that they are not currently at the levels of UFC fighters, but at least now that they are on PPV they are getting more money than before.
Also, I didn’t read any credible stories about the UFC seriously considering the prospects of a merger. So unless you have some source that you never reported on, just sounds like more rumor and speculation.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 27, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds good to me
I vote yes on Issue… WEC + UFC = Awesomeness
When some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac grabs your neck, taps the back of your favorite head up against the barroom wall, and he looks you crooked in the eye and he asks you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail." - Jack Burton
Agreed
I also vote yes! Im sorry but I would like ALL of my UFC PPVs to have a title fight and this would be a great solution. Basically just get the 145 and 135lb Champs and the #1 contender to fight for the new UFC straps on a PPV.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Apr 27, 2010 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, I agree with this. I wouldn’t normally copy-pasta a response I wrote to another post, but I finished this just minutes ago by coincidence (albeit edited a bit here):
I’m fine with the feeder-system idea, but the way I’d do it is I’d move the divisions over to the UFC one at a time while still adding lower ones. I think Versus would still prefer a promotion which had a few legit world champions, so it would be best to keep some divisions exclusive to the WEC for a while, at least until the Versus contract runs out. I’d do it in roughly this order:
-Start by adding a Flyweight division. Sign guys, start doing matches.
-Lobby to have the Unified Rules add a Strawweight division at 115 lbs. Try and get that established in as many major MMA states as possible.
-Move the top 4-6 LWs to the UFC, including the LW Champion, and sign some more LW prospects
-Hold a 4-man tournament for a new LW Champion.
-Hold a 4-man tournament to crown the first Flyweight Champion.
-Move the top 15 or so Featherweights over the UFC and establish a UFC FW division. Start signing more FW prospects to the WEC. I assume some existing UFC LWs will also drop down to FW, and the appeal of a UFC FW division might be enough to convince some top FWs not currently with Zuffa to sign with them now, like Marlon Sandro or Joe Warren.
-Do a season of The Ultimate Fighter where half the competitors are Featherweights, and have Featherweight coaches. Have the two coaches meet at a PPV afterwords to determine the first UFC Featherweight Champion.
-Hold a 4-man tournament to determine the new WEC FW Champion.
-Establish a Strawweight division. Obviously it’ll be a very small division at first (no pun intended). Even just 12-16 guys under contract at any one time would still be enough for a division though. Try and sign Rambaa Somdet, since he is the world’s #1 Strawweight and is fucking awesome.
-Send whoever the top 2-4 WEC LWs are at this point over to the UFC, including the champion. Have another 4-man tournament to fill the void.
-Hold a 4-man tournament to determine the first Strawweight Champion.
-Buy another regional promotion like UWC or MFC or something, or form one from scratch. Let’s call it “Feeder Promotion B”. Use it develop prospects in weight classes at LW or higher, except possibly HW. Send those at Featherweight and below over to the WEC or if warranted, straight to the UFC.
-Send the top 15 or so Bantamweights over to the UFC, including the WEC Champion, and establish a UFC BW division. Sign some more prospects prospects to the WEC. I assume a few UFC FWs might drop down to Bantamweight at this point. Unlike Featherweight, Zuffa already has Bantamweight division pretty much sown up as much as they do LHWs and WWs, but they still may be able to lure a few guys who they previously couldn’t, like Hatsu Hioki.
-Do a season of The Ultimate Fighter where half the competitors are Bantamweights, and have Bantamweight coaches. Have the two coaches meet at a PPV afterwords to determine the first UFC Bantamweight Champion.
-Hold a 4-man tournament to determine the new WEC BW Champion.
-Send the top 2-4 WEC FWs at this point over to the UFC. Hold another 4-man tournament to determine the new WEC FW Champion. Repeat every 18 months or so.
-Fold what’s left of the WEC LW division entirely into the UFC. Send some of the other LW prospects to Feeder Promotion B.
-Eventually send the top 2-4 WEC BWs over to the UFC. Hold another 4-man tournament to determine the new WEC BW Champion. Repeat every 18 months or so.
-Start sending the top guys in each division from Feeder Promotion B over to the UFC in much the same way.
From there, whatever. Add Flyweights and Strawweights to the UFC in much the same way, and maybe look at adding some women’s divisions to the WEC and Feeder Promotion B. Zuffa could have almost anyone they wanted at 125 and 115, and much like Men’s MMA, Women’s MMA tends to be faster and more exciting at smaller weight classes. They could also still be competitive in Women’s 135 and 145 too for that matter, and maybe have the two larger weight classes in Feeder Promotion B, and the two smaller one’s in the WEC or something.
by Chromium on Apr 27, 2010 6:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ariel Helwani and Ben Fowlkes already talked about this on their show today. The problem with turning WEC into a feeder league is that it would torpedo gates, ratings and interest. Nobody would care about dropping money on an admitted B-team. The thought of mind being ‘Why watch WEC when the good fighters will be moved to the UFC? I’ll just spare myself the time.’
I’d rather they just merge the damn things already. 125 – Heavyweight in the UFC. Never have another non-title PPV again.
With all due respect to them, I think their conclusion is hasty and incorrect. First of all, WEC ratings do about the same level as just about any MMA that is not the UFC—poor. They get a combination of a small number of hardcore fans combined with whoever is watching Versus. The vast majority of their shows do terrible numbers, supplemented by the occasional success.
The WEC is a loss leader, they don’t make any money, at least not until UFC took over for a week and made them money.
By giving Versus a few more UFC shows, you’d easily make up for the ratings loss and more. In fact, you’d probably deliver more overall viewers. It doesn’t take too much thinking to come up with ways to make this work.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Where are you getting your “facts” that WEC doesn’t make any money? Sorry if it sounds like I’m busting your balls, but people make claims like this all the time without any proof, trying to pass speculation off as fact. I haven’t read anything indicating that they are losing money.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 27, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t take a whole lot to look at costs of running a show and a complete lack of meaningful revenue to tell what’s going on. It’s as commonly accepted as Ken Shamrock’s financial problems.
I don’t mind you “busting my balls” as much as raising a whole bunch of minor issues masquerading as major issues.
Look at the harsh reality for the WEC:
—Until UFC took it over for a week to save the PPV, WEC has had no upward movement since Faber-Pulver 1. No progress in ratings, no progress in attendance, no new shows, no new revenue streams, nothing. All they have now are two foreign champions that won’t draw without the UFC marketing machine.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I still don’t agree with you on that, as the WEC payroll is sufficiently low, combined with whatever money they are receiving from VS, that I highly doubt they are losing money. Saying it is as commonly accepted as Ken Shamrock’s financial problems is dubious, as those are well documented with actual facts and not speculation.
Assuming you are correct though, and they are losing money now, what makes you think they will all of a sudden become economically viable by becoming a farm system? Logic says they will lose even more money, as ratings, attendance, and revenue streams will all drop. If what you say is true they should just move the 2 divisions over and close the WEC, as continuing to run it will only result in further losses.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 27, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
If they transform it into a true minor league, and scale back the arenas where they have shows, they can find a way to make money on it.
There are hundreds of minor league baseball teams making money.
Even if they turn it into a minor leagues/feeder system for the UFC they would probably draw more eyes using UFC “castoffs”. And to mask it they could incorporate a Bellator style tournament system. it’s no longer a farm system but a special UFC Grand Prix format. Think of a WW tourney with Ben Askren, Jacob McClintock, and Dan Hornbuckle alongside up-and-coming UFC fighters and veterans (Phil Baroni, Frank Trigg, Amir Sadollah, DaMarques Johnson and Matt Brown). Who doesn’t think they would do significantly better ratings than what they get now on Versus?
Looking at the numbers that Strikeforce Challengers does, I just don’t see how this new WEC could exist. It would lose a lot of money. There is no way that these shows would draw more than maybe one thousand people and Versus is not going to pay much for this product.
Why lose money on shows? If they are goint to move the BW and FWs over, it would be best to simply wait until the currect contracts end and merge the two completely. A WEC featuring guys like Jason MacDonald, Chris Leben and Rob Emerson headlining is a recipe for disaster. Small shows stay small for a reason.
I don’t think you get how the financing of MMA works. They would run better margins on this show paying prospects and journeymen than overpaying Faber, Torres, and Aldo to deliver garbage ratings. In terms of money, they’d do better, that is hardly the issue. All of these issues you’re raising are just tangential, small issues that can easily be negotiated and figured out by giant media companies like the UFC and Comcast. If there’s a will to do it, they can. None of these are significant obstacles.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
How do you think their margins are when they’re paying Faber low 6 figures to do shows that score a couple hundred thousand viewers? They could drop those ratings by half, but pay prospects 5/5 and end up running a more efficient vehicle.
by Michael Rome on Apr 27, 2010 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s a no-brainer: cards of young prospects and lower tier veterans is not going to cost much if any more than the current WEC cards. Plus, I’m sure having a card with Stephan Bonner, Chris Leben, Mac Danzig, Phil Baroni, and Frank Trigg fighting under some sort of UFC logo would draw better than most WEC cards.
My only quip: i can’t believe you endorsed paying prospects 5/5.
by John Nash on Apr 27, 2010 10:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The Faber cards all averaged around 1 million viewers, you are just making stuff up to prove your point. http://www.mmafighting.com/2010/03/10/without-urijah-faber-wec-ratings-on-versus-are-weak/
“Overall, using the MMA Junkie numbers, in the last two years WEC cards that had Faber on them have averaged 936,000 viewers on Versus. WEC cards without Faber averaged 479,000 viewers.”
Also, I think it’s misleading to call a half million viewers a couple hundred thousand, once again, trying to mislead to prove your point.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 27, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Respectfully, I actually do understand how it works. I also understand television and how the financing works there as well and what ratings mean.
I simply don’t agree with you that Comcast would be interested in paying big money for a development system, especially if they want to make Versus a major sports channel. Those garbage ratings are above average for Versus at this time and thus are desirable and worth paying for.
My guess, and I confess that it is only a guess, is that Versus is going to make a bid for the UFC programming down the line. I agree they can make it work if all parties want to, I just don’t see all parties wanting to.
Since I'm late to the party again,
and pretty much everything I wanted to say, have been said in the comments already.. so all I’m gonna say is. I approve of this idea.
and so does Chuck Norris.
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