MMA's Judging System Needs a High-Tech Upgrade
by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 3:00 PM EDT
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Following Saturday evening's featherweight contest between former UFC lightweight Leonard Garcia and Sengoku veteran "The Korean Zombie" Chan Sung Jung, I was filled with a misconception that the judges would easily score the fight in favor of Jung. It seemed fairly apparent that during many of the exchanges, Garcia simply didn't land his booming overhand while Jung countered with a blistering array of straight punches to Garcia's face.
I was wrong. Judge Steel and Hamilton both scored the bout 29-28 in favor of Garcia, giving him both the second and third rounds. Judge Belardo scored the contest 29-28 for Jung, although he scored the first and second round in favor of Jung.
Interestingly enough, most of the scoring from fans and writers was completely different. As Mike Fagan pointed out in the FightMetric scoring post, there were plenty of MMA sites who also pointed in the direction of Jung.
Why is there such a disparity between viewers and actual judges at these events? As many fans have begun to point out in droves, judges are at a distinct disadvantage sitting cage-side than those of us tuned in on massive television sets with over-the-cage points of view. Jung vs. Garcia is a battle that proves once again that monitors must be implemented for effective and accurate MMA judging to occur.
What's stopping a monitor system from being implemented by state athletic commissions? Is it logistics? Money? What's the problem, and is there some sort of solution?
The budget could be one hurdle limiting the use of a monitoring system. While televisions aren't all that expensive these days, not all events have a television crew and access to feeds available. Requiring all events to do this in order to give judges a good view of the action would hurt many promotions' bottom line, and that probably won't fly with promoters.
That pushes the emphasis of a monitoring system to the athletic commission. If larger promotions with the resources to provide monitors are required to implement a system, wouldn't smaller promotions be in the same boat? Would this need to be a system-wide implementation?
Are commissions against large promotions providing monitors? If the UFC were to simply put three television sets in place with their live feed fed to it without audio, would a commission deem that illegal under their current by-laws? These are questions that need to be asked and answered.
This defense that judges have an unique perspective due to a cage-side seat is completely absurd for anyone to believe. There is a reason why I hate going to live events, and it's probably the same reason why judges have a hard time seeing action when a fight takes place at the other end of the cage. It's tough to see anything. There are plenty of fans who can argue that they hated spending huge money to look at an overhead monitor for half the night when action took place away from their vantage point. The same applies to judges.
Even if you felt that the Jung vs. Garcia fight was scored correctly, do we really need evidence to point to judges needing monitors? This is a high-tech age we live in, and any advantage we can give the very people who decide who wins in a sport that's gaining more popularity and more revenue every day is a good thing.
NJ State Athletic Control Board head Nick Lembo spoke with TheGarv.com back in November and made some comments regarding the use of monitors and Nelson Hamilton's proposal regarding half-points being used. I thought his comments on the monitors was favorable:
"I am not sure what it would require. First, I think a review of all the so-called controversial decisions being re-scored under this system would be an interesting starting point. I would be remiss if I did not say how difficult a task that MMA judging can be. Sometimes I wonder if judges should be in separate rooms watching on high definition big screen televisions, because TV usually gives you the perfect angles while sitting cage side provides blocked or limited views at times. Or at least have TV monitors at the judges’ seats for times when their views are blocked."
Separate rooms? Yes please. Monitors at the judges' seats. Yes.
Why aren't monitors in place at events? I couldn't tell you, but I do know that many of these close fights in which one fighter wins by consensus opinion, but loses on the judges' scorecards is frustrating to watch. For such an epic war between two great competitors, the rightful winner should have his hand raised.
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When I first watched the Garcia vs Jung fight I had no sound and a few beers in me. I thought Jung won 29-28. Then I rewatched with sounds and no booze. I felt it went the orther way, Garcia 29-28. Close fight!! I sat directly behind Joe and Goldie at UFC 79, I was in the first row and had the same view as them. Almost the entire fight they were watching their monitors to call the fights, briefly looking up at the cage if the action was directly in front of them. If the announcers need this tool to do their job, so do the judges. Heck, I’m pretty sure Dana even had his own monitor at his seat.
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Apr 26, 2010 3:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It’s just my opinion. Doesn’t make it right. My point was more the fact that I saw it both ways. For what it’s worth I had Edgar and Machida winning their close decisions too :-)
Be a man, not a child-Phil Anselmo
by ANance on Apr 26, 2010 3:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
How can anyone give Garcia the third round? He back peddled the entire 5 minutes, was out struck, and landed very few punches on Jung. Round 1 is the only round I consider a toss up.
Regardless of how you call it, MMA needs to tighten up the judging. Some give strikes higher value over takedowns, some don’t even consider the position after the takedown, octagon/cage control and pushing the action seem to carry next to no weight at all.
tell that to Couture
He won that fight at 105 off of Octagon control.
you mean the one round
that he outstruck Jung according to the FightMetric stats? http://www.fightmetric.com/fights/Garcia-Jung.html.
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by Cory Braiterman on Apr 26, 2010 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think alot needs to be changed in mma scoring
but I also think different people have different opinions on how scoring should go.
One big issue is takedown’s. We are at a point at mma that if you can get the takedown even if you dont do nothing with it as long as you can continue to do it you will win the fight.
Another issue is submission attempts and submission escapes and how each is scored. example Cerrone/Henderson 1 is a bigger fact Cerrone locking in the attempts or Henderson being able to hang on and escape.
As for Jung/Garcia I had Jung winning based soley on the fact that more of his punches were connecting but I think some judges scored it for Garcia because it seemed like he was pushing the action(rounds 2 and 3) more it’s the same reason I think 2 judges gave Faber round 1 in Aldo/Faber(at least I assume it was round 1). Faber didnt really do more damage or connect with a lot more shots he just pushed the action more. Which begs the question how do you score pushing the pace?
It's going to take a few more years for the sports existance before we close that gap..
MMA and MMA judging is still new; in retrospect..
I think the gap will close once the sports grown to a point where a younger generation of judges can come into play with a better mindset for the sport and how to apply the judging criteria.. For example: TD’s, submission attempts, submission escapes, strikes landed or thrown vs. actual damage of strikes overall, etc..
All there intricate details are things that many of the judges don’t have a total grasp of concept on yet. Maybe once the sport grows in the way boxing has grown and the judging grows with the sport will the total effectiveness and fairness of judging seal up in the gaps that are present today.. Most have to take into consideration that the majority of judges for MMA are judges from the athletic commissions that don’t understand every intricate detail of the fight itself and the value of each detail and how it should be applied to a judged criteria..
Once the next generation of judges comes along that has a better foundation of the sports overall knowledge and how to apply a value to each aspect within the parameters of the fight itself , then we’ll start to see a more consistent view from the judges across the board and in return receive a more consistent outcome for judged fights.. We will never “cure” the problem because it’s a subjective topic and predicates itself on personal perception and opinion.. But I do believe we’ll get a more consistent basis of judging as the sport develops and a new breed of judges comes into the picture..
8-29-09
Keith Jardine is now known as "The Dean of Antihistamine" because he is always sleeping early in fights..
I love the points you’re making. However, we get into endless arguments about criteria and it’s application, which is great, but we’re often reacting to scoring that is clearly hampered by the judges viewpoints. It’s the simplest thing to fix, requiring only a handful of good monitors. I’m also interested in the possibility of adding another couple judges to get a broader sample. But first off, I’d really like to see how scoring would look if the judges actually had a good view of what they’re judging. It’s the best place to start from in my opinion.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Apr 26, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think state commissions should at least allow for the option of having monitors available to judges. Obviously small promotions aren’t going to have that luxury, but the UFC, WEC, StrikeForce, Bellator, sure. Hook each judge up with one to three monitors that they can look at in addition to a cageside seat, for optimum viewing. If it’s Zuffa, they can get continuous High-Definition feeds from different camera angles.
Another possibility is maybe up the number judges. I remember reading that one Japanese promotion, possibly Sengoku, was planning to do an experiment where they had 5 judges, and one of them was the referee, which seemed like an interesting idea. MMA doesn’t have the same number of rounds as boxing, so maybe a higher number of judges would be a different way to get more consistently good decision outcomes.
As for high-tech scoring, MMA may just be to complicated to be able to do that on the fly right now. Fight-Metric is done after the fact where individual fights can take hours to evaluate on a high-definition screen. However, maybe if you had one guy scoring takedowns and positional control, and one guy counting different types of strikes, and they both fed that into a computer and the computer decided who won a particular round, maybe that might be worth a try. The “computer” would objectively score fights, and allow for 10-10 rounds when something was very close. Again, only high-end promotions could afford such a thing though.
Good article Leland
It probably won’t get as much attention as it deserves with the shitstorm going on with Tito, but its a great point. Obviously the commission can’t force promotions to buy monitors for judges, but I don’t know what’s stopping the UFC and other major orgs from buying them for the judges. The judges should be able to use any tool available to them.
i agree great topic
I have been wanting this for years
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 3:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s one of those things that sucks for commissions because if you require it, you might make it real difficult for small promotions, but if you require it only for those who have the resources — managers and fighters could be really upset about not having the luxury at specific events.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
i work in communications. this would be very cheap to do.
A few TVs and some cabling.$1500 Max. And that’s for the first show. You could reuse the TVs, so the second show would be like $300 just for cabling.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 4:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
honestly the big shows are so
They should do this. if the fighters agree to "low tech judging " at the smaller shows then thats their business. The ufc is the majors and it should act as such. If Dana is as worried about bad judging as he says he is then he should help solve the problem. This would be a big step in the right direction.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 4:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
^this^
If monitors will give judges at the highest level of the sport better perspective on the fight, it is well worth sacrificing the inconsistency between the bigger and smaller shows.
I’m not sure about separate rooms though. What happens if the monitors die?
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
what happens if a judge sneezes? you work through it. i think anyone who has been to a live show knows ring side is not a good vantage point.
You are sitting lower then the octagon for fuck sakes. Nothing is perfect but I think monitors are the best idea. Or atleast elevate the judges seating
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 5:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Jet packs.
Judges hover over the fighters and strike down point deductions from the heavens!
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
omg!!!!
Leland you are a visionary! !!!
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 5:37 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'm just saying that HD monitors ringside
are a better idea than HD monitors in another room, since the judges can look up if they fail.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
i agree 100% with that.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 6:14 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sounds good to me. I always wondered why in close fights the judges were usually on the opposite side of the fans, never thought of the point of view. I like the seperate room/HDTV suggestion.
I’m not a judge so my opinion might not be as “important” as theirs but I scored the fight 30-28 Jung with the 2nd round even. That’s what I thought but I don’t see any judges in america scoring 10-10 rounds, sometimes I wonder if they know how the 10 point system works.
On top of the other changes I think that fights should be scored not round by round but like they do in Japan and score the fight as a whole, just how I feel
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Its hard to see a live MMA event the way it appears on TV
In the real world, you’re looking through a fence. The pads at corners of the Octagon or around a cage severely obstruct your view. Add to that cameramen standing around and it becomes even worse.
For judges cageside, it becomes even worse when the action moves to a part of the cage away from them.
Seats at a higher level or further back are better for viewing live, but then makes it harder to see the ground game.
Yes, monitors do seem like the best solution. But even then, who knows how the fight will look to three different people.
Unless you can come up with a video feed that doesn’t go through the hands of the promoter doing something like this opens people up to cries of corruption and conspiracy.
like we dont have those now.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 4:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We have them now when there’s little to no evidence that they exist, why add actual fuel to that fire?
What happens when they “forget” to shut off the feed before showing part of a replay in between rounds?
omg the judges would get a better look!
I see what your saying. But something needs to be done.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 26, 2010 6:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Monitors are great...
but there are a lot of things at play here (most of which Leland touched on)
You can’t force promotions to have multiple camera feeds at an event, it’s not plausible at all. so it comes down the the commission having to spend the money on cameramen, equipment and the like…which is also probably not going to happen.
It is very important that there is no audio on the monitors and that no replays are shown on these monitors.
..etc
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 26, 2010 4:05 PM EDT reply actions
Exactly.
And then I could see managers and fighters getting a bit frustrated at bad decisions at smaller events that didn’t have this technology, and then there be an outcry for commissions to pay for it. Unless fees were increased to promotions, I don’t see it as completely viable at this point.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Brent According to Jordan Breen its very plausible and easy if the commisons wanted them. It would not be hard for commissions to get the equipment and money sence they are all goverment ran organizations.
Except a lot of states are in deep debt. It isn’t easy at all in some states.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Right...
the last area government money is going right now is technology for human cockfighting
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 26, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
unless there are guns and bombs involved of course
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I mentioned this elsewhere in the comments here, but they could all have those ref cams like strikeforce uses and feed that to the judges with no sound
as for paying for it, the promotions should foot part of the bill, maybe that’s the cost of being a “pro” mma org vs. an amateur one
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Would monitors help much? I mean if they are just piggy backing on the camera guys feeds, you’re replacing 3 limited perspectives for 1 limited perspective. It might increase uniformity, but it wouldn’t necessarily increase the quality of decisions. Just cause the guys watching it on tv see a fight one way doesn’t necessarily mean that is the best view for judging the fight. Blows that look like they connected from one camera may look like glancing blows on another; maybe the third camera shows they missed entirely. How the judges scored the fight would depend on which camera they were viewing, and wouldn’t be any more objective than their score from ringside.
Now, if you allowed them to review critical moments of the fight in slo-mo from multiple angles that would be helpful, but then that would probably cause major delays in reaching a decision and put a major crimp in event scheduling.
At the end of the day the reason that judging is problematic is that it is the only subjective way to win. Because it is subjective, no matter how many cameras the judges view, or the fighmetric stats fans will still be getting pissed about decisions.
The best way, imo, to deal with this, is how K-1 does it. If a round is so close it could go either way, call it a draw. If after three rounds there is no clear winner, clean the scorecard and do an sudden death extension round. If that is a draw, do it again. If that is a draw, it’s a draw.
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Is it out of bounds for a promotion to provide the television equipment for the judges without AC’s making it manditory for all promotions? I mean, you might as well get it right more often than not, right?
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if the promotion provides the equipment and the means to deliver video to said equipment, it opens up all sorts of conflicts of interest and possible cries of corruption.
I understand that but...
If it’s the same exact feed that we are watching at home and that can be proven, why not roll with it.
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because the feed we watch at home is designed to make a good tv show for the promoter, not necessarily assist in making an objective decision on who won the fight.
Sure, but it seems the feed we are watching at home is giving us the ability to come up with better decisions than some judges are. Besides, it might be a little difficult fitting the promotion’s cameras and comission cameras both on the same show?
My sig left me for a woman.
I don’t think more cameramen is a great idea, I’m just saying that just using the feed provided by the promoter has a lot of issues.
I don’t understand how them showing us at home the best view of the fight is bad for the judges to see too? maybe no sound of course; you don’t want them hearing Rogan going on about something he is worked up on, but the visual they definitely need
Or they could put those cameras on the refs like they have in strikeforce and that feed will go to the judges. But I think the home feed would be fine.
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because it can be manipulated.
Right now the judge sees what he sees with his own eyes. If he’s in a private room with feeds from the promoter, he sees what the promoter shows him.
It can be in the wrong hands, yes.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don’t see camera angle’s as a reasonable area of concern. We really haven’t seen much change in the camera (UFC’s anyway) in the years. If we did under a new system like this, I’m pretty sure it would be easy to spot.
My sig left me for a woman.
Well, the UFC angle isn’t a problem, but I could see a smaller promotion just cutting a feed at an opportune time for their “star” to somehow get a win in a specific circumstance. Things of that nature are what I’m talking about and others are as well.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess, that sounds awfully nefarious for something they won’t get away with in the long run. Like they wouldn’t notice after the fact if something was done weird purposefully and then the promotion would be in deep crap. But I can see the concern.
Still they could have raw feeds from different cameras just like what goes to staff that programs it all. And still my ref cam idea could be a straight feed as well.
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Aren’t the judges in a sort of triangular position, at three different spots around the cage? It seems like the different vantage points can result in a great scoring desparity.
Crush a bit, little bit, roll it up, take a hit... Feelin’ lit, feelin’ light, 2 am summer night...
Exactly. Imagine if a judge was on the other side of that Garcia – Jung exchange in the third with Jung’s back to him. He wouldn’t be able to see a damn thing.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
great fight marred by a bad decision
Whilst it wasn’t the most technical fight sure…it nevertheless caught the eyes for all viewers. Talk about great free TV and great to hear the $65K bonuses.
Fightmetric put it exactly Korean Zombie won three rounds. I just hope that for a rematch he will come out with his hands raised.
Also I’m new to the website and I just posted my first blog to anyone interested.
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by snakecharmer1340 on Apr 26, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions
HuffPost
went to shit 3 years ago. I don’t go there anymore, and neither should anyone else looking for decent liberal-leaning news
Crush a bit, little bit, roll it up, take a hit... Feelin’ lit, feelin’ light, 2 am summer night...
by Anthony Pace on Apr 26, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like your honesty
How’s the NY Times doing these days according to your perspective.
Google Ron Paul!
yea, HuffPo has gotten really bad lately
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Yeah, except they still rank as the #1 blog on the Internet. Ugh.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 26, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Seperate Rooms Backstage and Judges Watching On Monitors
I’ve been saying that for a year now.
"I will do nothing lightly. When I walk, I will walk heavily. When I fight, I will fight with conviction. When I speak, I will speak strongly. When I love, I will love with everything"
Separate rooms with Monitors is an interesting idea.
Or even if they want to keep them at cage side, add the monitors and separate them on different sides of the cage.
Sometimes I wonder if adding a couple more judges would even things out as well, five instead of three? But some new training would help as well.
I always thought they should post the scores after each round, just like any other sport so everybody knows who is winning or losing. But then I think the opposite and remember how I hate fights that go to decisions and think that if they don’t finish them, they should all be draws. (I know that would never happen, but I best we would see a lot more finishes)
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they’ve tried in boxing and it hasn’t been a wild success.
For every person you have going balls out because they know they need a finish to win, you will have another person who knows they are winning and doing everything they can to not get finished.
And that’s just for times when the decision is in doubt. You didn’t need to see the cards for the Strikeforce fights last week or Faber/Aldo this week to know who was going to win a decision going into the 5th round, but Aoki, Mousasi, Hendo, and Faber weren’t able to do anything about it.
yea, i Know it’s not really possible, just want to encourage more finishes
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Monitor for the judges are no brainers. If the state/athletic commisions don’t want to force it because of the smaller shows, I want the major promotions UFC/SF/WEC etc to be proactive and offer this service.
Makes me think twice before bashing a judge after a decision I dont agree with. It is definitely different watching fights live and at home. Sitting cage/ring side is not the best seat in terms of viewing. They are at a disadvantage.
But decisions like Jung/Garcia dont anger me at all. It was a good close fight where both fighters were winners.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
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