Is Japanese MMA Done and Can Dana White Avoid a Similar Fate in the States?
When Kenny Florian squashed Japanese legend Takanori Gomi at UFC Fight Night 21, fans of Japanese MMA were pinning their hopes on Shinya Aoki, the #2 ranked lightweight in the world per the USAT/SBN Consensus MMA Rankings. After Aoki's one-sided loss to Gilbert Melendez, many pundits are writing off the Land of the Rising Sun as a major hub for MMA. D.W. of Head Kick Legend responds:
If the fight happened in Japan there is no doubt it would've been a different fight without a cage and with the different rules. Of course this pokes a lot of holes in how people rank MMA, especially in the lightweight division, as this shows just how hard it is to compare American MMA and Japanese MMA. The fact that Aoki did not win a single round is almost irrelevant to his fighting style as Shinya Aoki has never been a truly dominant fighter as opposed to a fighter that can fight himself out of bad positions and pull off impressive wins. Aoki has no stand up to speak of and went into this fight with grappling alone at his disposal.
I know for many the talk of a rematch will die down as it wouldn't seem competitive, but a rematch under DREAM rules in a ring could be an entirely different fight and one I'd like to see.
But it's not just Aoki, a controversial figure even in his homeland, former mega-star KID Yamamoto has signed to fight for Strikeforce and will be making his debut for the promotion in a dark match (untelevised) at their May 15 event. This is staggering because for many years, Yamamoto was considered not just the best under 155lb fighter in the world, but he was a huge star on Japanese television. D.W. has some thoughts on this as well, per Head Kick Legend:
It will be difficult to get high profile wins in Strikeforce when Yamamoto will apparently not be airing on Showtime. This goes back to a previous point, that Strikeforce has no clue how to promote Japanese fighters. Shinya Aoki on CBS while KID Yamamoto will be on a dark match on a Showtime card is absolutely beyond belief, as their star power is nowhere on the same level. Even with Yamamoto's problems and disappointments, he is still one of the biggest Japanese draws in a post-PRIDE world for MMA. The only other name that comes to mind post-Kazushi Sakuraba in martial arts is recently-retired K-1 MAX fighter Masato. On New Year's Eve the highest rated segments involved KID Yamamoto in the DREAM vs. SRC series, Masato's retirement and the Yoshida vs. Ishii bout. Shinya Aoki's fight was aired during the last half hour block after the Masato fight and was the lowest rated portion of the show.
This is without a doubt not how anybody expected KID Yamamoto to make his American debut. This is with a whimper and not a bang. The talk a few years ago was that the fight that needed to happen was KID Yamamoto vs. Urijah Faber, one of the biggest dream bouts of the past few years that it looks like will never happen. Zuffa and FEG could never come to terms to make the fight happen, with both sides wanting more than the other could offer.
Strikeforce is making a mistake here, even with Yamamoto on a 2-fight losing streak in MMA. Yamamoto could be the easiest of all the Japanese fighters from DREAM to promote. His fighting style is exciting and entertaining, with 12 of his 17 wins coming via brutal knockouts and two via submission, there is basically no such thing as a dull KID Yamamoto fight. On top of that, unlike most of the other Japanese fighters from DREAM, Yamamoto grew up in the United States and speaks english, as well as integrated a lot of "American" attitude and style into his persona which helped make him such a big star in Japan.
Frankly, the reason that fighters who have headlined successful Japanese events for years like Gomi, Aoki and Yamamoto are fighting in the U.S. is because the MMA business in Japan has all but collapsed.
Why has Japanese MMA collapsed as a business proposition? Well there are numerous reasons, but (yes I'm going to link to him for the third time in one post, what can I say, HKL is my go-to for Japanese MMA updates) D.W. of Head Kick Legend blames the mendacity of Japanese MMA promoters and says there is a warning there for Dana White:
So I'm sure you are wondering, how exactly is Dana White lying to everybody considered Japanese. It is quite simple, if you've been following HKL since we came up at least, or following the Japanese MMA and kickboxing scene for any period of time, you'll notice how anything said to the media should be taken with a grain of salt. What this means is when Tanikawa of K-1 or Sasahara of DREAM make an announcement it is usually not considered official until it has been added to the official fight card. The same can be said for the media in Japan, whose sources are usually within the companies. What this creates is an atmosphere where fighters, fans and the media are all fed lies on a daily basis and finding out what is truth or fiction often comes down to educated guess-work or waiting until the event is live.
I'll use a recent example where Andrei Arlovski's camp was given a contract by FEG to fight Alistair Overeem on New Year's Eve. They signed it, returned it, then went about getting Andrei's camp in motion to fight Overeem in a MMA bout. The only problem is Bas Boon, Overeem's manager, had not approved the bout and turned it down for a fight with Kazuyuki Fujita. There are older examples, like K-1 giving Bas Boon a contract using him a middle-man to sign Fedor Emelianenko, of course the problem was that Boon had minimal connections to Fedor and there was no way that Vadim and Co. would approve this contract not under their terms.
Tanikawa's Twitter feed is full of tongue-in-cheek rumors, sometimes used simply to throw people off of his trail. Other times he is completely honest. When pressed about Alistair Overeem a few months ago, he said Overeem would not fight at DREAM.13 but K-1 Yokohama. The problem was, Overeem thought he was still fighting at DREAM.13. Do you see why this is confusing and hard to believe?
Dana White is moving down a winding road full of bumps if he can continue to justify lying to the fans and media. This is the problem, he finds there to be nothing wrong with this, when maybe he should take a look at the years of abuse from Japanese promoters and how much of a mess the fight industry is there. If you build your foundation on sand, don't expect it to stand up to a battering of waves.
We've enjoyed a five year run of success from the UFC in the States, but we should never assume that it's a given to continue. Nearly a year after UFC 100, Zuffa has come no where near repeating its success, despite having mounted more events in the last nine months than ever.
The apparent failure of Strikeforce to make a go of things on CBS leaves the American MMA market sadly diminished and while that may look to be a good thing for Dana White and the UFC, it leaves the sport itself in a more tenuous position than it's been in since the "dark ages" of 1997-2002.
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Putting KID on a non televised match, especially on a premium channel like Showtime instead of using him on a main card for a CBS show demonstrates a complete lack of intelligence when it comes to promoting MMA events.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 20, 2010 10:41 AM EDT reply actions
true, but dana's an idiot as well.
he talks about not knowing how to promote a japanese fighter, when he had the greatest japanese fighter of all time in his promotion, but instead of building him up, he fed him to KenFlo. If dana was fuckin smart, he would’ve brought gomi to co-headline a UFC in Japan, against someone who is a big name, but that he should have been able to beat. Like….. idk, aurelio or something.
by LeeroyJenkin$ on Apr 20, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I giggled at the Aurelio remark.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 20, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I'll let Dana know
that you’re available to give him some lessons on MMA promoting when he’s ready to start making money.
by Scott Haber on Apr 20, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
There might be a method to that madness, though. Gomi’s problem is and has often been motivation. Putting him in against Florian was a great test. If he won, then he’s a great draw immediately. But he lost, badly; now he has the motivation to train his ass off – if he wants to – and have an even more impressive “comeback” storyline.
If they put Gomi in against some schmoe and he got thumped – a possibility – then they blew their chance to promote him, full stop. If Gomi blew up some schmoe, we know nothing about him and he’d likely still drag his unmotivated ass into a fight against stiffer competition and get blasted. Again, there goes his appeal, full stop.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
by AJB on Apr 20, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 10 recs
good points
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds perfect but I find it hard to believe that the UFC management are/were thinking that deep in regards to Gomi’s career. The Gomi/Florian fight was a win-win for the UFC, if Gomi won -then there was an instant challenger but he if he lost, Florian will gain additional credibility w/o hurting Edgar/Maynard’s status. Then it stops there. Will UFC let Gomi fight lower tier fighters, sure.. but I highly doubt they are that concerned w/ his career. Gomi’s appeal though only concerns the hardcores w/c as we know means close to nothing in the real world.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
You’ll notice almost every fight that goes on is a win-win for the UFC. The guys aren’t stupid.
by Jason H. on Apr 20, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
against someone who is a big name
aurelio
What?
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Lol…..I don’t know why so many people think Dana White is an idiot. Gomi probably is being extremely overpaid to bring him stateside and the UFC won’t pay him big money to gradually build him up and risk him losing to a lesser named opponent. Japanese stars usually can make more money fighting lesser opponents in japan and this is why alot of them don’t cross over.
If Kid is being paid big money by strikeforce to bring him over it is idiotic to have him on the undercard where no one will see him. I can’t help but think why does dream continue to lend there stars out to strikeforce when they have all been getting their asses whipped.
by JCBee on Apr 20, 2010 11:32 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
The best thing about Aoki is that I love watching him cry...
…and he always does.
Don't believe a word I say, I don't train BJJ.
I blog at TangleBones - you should follow me on Twitter here.
If you like it, you should put a rec on it.
by jemaleddin on Apr 20, 2010 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I LOL at the apologists who believe the rules was the difference. Fedor has had no problem fighting in a cage. There are tons of former Pride fighters fighting in the UFC now, and there’s been myriad of excuses from “over the hill,” to “injuries,” and “steroid testing.” But this is a first that uses the differences in rules.
10+5 VS 25 minutes is the difference? Judging whole VS by round is the difference? When does skill and game plan come into play? Is it not the reason that Aoki has been exposed because he’s a one-dimensional fighter? Is a 1-1 record against Hellboy the epitome of top competition? This is a guy who decisioned Caol Uno, a blown up 145lbers. We can only extrapolate by looking at fighters he’s fought and how they have fared in the UFC. The record just doesn’t look very good and the reality has caught up with him.
by cyph on Apr 20, 2010 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I never really watched pride
Maybe I saw a replay once at the time and I’ve since gone back and watched the documentaries and many of the fights and in a lot of ways I’m happy I never did. A lot of people, loved that they had discovered this niche thing on the internet that was ohh SO COOL. As their exclusive fantasy slowly dies they keep grasping and hoping that their “imaginary” friend is in fact real. There are the myriad of excuses as to why the pride fighters are failing or the predictions of the UFC’s demise. In short its all a fleeting prayer for the good old days when MMA was “romantic”
I think the slew of injuries in the Winter halted the UFC’s progression. If you look at the supposed cards they were mouth watering.
I think the UFC/MMA has a lot of room for progression. I think having one dominant promotion isn’t a bad thing and it should be just feeder leagues into the UFC as we get to see the best fight the best and not just wishful thinking with hypothetical outcomes.
Jesus, another article highlighting Dana WHites lie to the media.
Can you get over it already. He didnt do shit but protect his show, not a SINGLE TICKET was sold under false pretenses. Jesus, people just cant let it go, nobody cares.
He didnt do shit, he said the original fight with Chuck/Tito was still a go, when they put tickets up for sale, they announced it was Chuck/Rich, he wasnt gonna ruin his tv show which Spike TV paid for.
Get over it already.
And 111 is said to have done over 800k buys, and the overseas tape delayed 112 did over 500k.
Just cause they aint gonna do 1.7 mill, which was just a special event, they are still doing great numbers, most events do in the 400k range, with big events doing 600 to 800k.
Thats pretty good imo. And since 100 BJ and GSP fought 1 time each and Brock still hasnt fought.
Brock, Silva, Machida, GSP were all hurt at some point as well.
by KRIS27 on Apr 20, 2010 10:51 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Jesus, people just cant let it go, nobody cares.
You seem to care.
by Scott Haber on Apr 20, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I dont care that he lied, I’m saying nobody cares that he lied, so why they keep bringing it up, thats what I dont get, why they cant let it go.
Had he sold tickets to the event under false pretenses, thats one thing, but he didnt, he protected a tv show, that Spike paid money for. Not a big deal.
by KRIS27 on Apr 20, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Swing on Dana's D much?
Obviously you love him. Tell us all why? is it:
Because of “allll he’s done for the sport of mma” this is soooo old and no longer the case.
Because he talks tough and “doesn’t take shit” – you must be 5 yrs old.
Because he drives 10 Ferraris? ….again, you’re 5
Because you think he’s actually a tough-guy, because you fall for his TV persona?
Or, if not these reasons – please give us all the real reasons that you defend Dana as if he’s your Dad?
Explain why Dana being a constant liar is ok because you’ve fallen for the BS that the title Promotor means lying to fans is ok?
I can’t wait to hear this
jiMMAy
Dana being a constant liar
lol. the entire thing is harping on one quote where they said a fight was on then turns out it wasn’t a week later when tickets went on sale.
by Jason H. on Apr 20, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. The ufc has continued it success this year and should be on course to have more fight cards then ever. They have put on shows in new marketplaces and continue to sell out arenas faster than ever. They are putting on more free shows on spike and versus as well.
This whole thing about comparing him lying to the Japanese fans not being able to trust their promoters is BS to me. For the most part Dana is very fan friendly and usually backs up what he says. He regularly announces fights months in advance that aren’t singed yet and they do happen. He listens to the fans and tries to give us what we want.
by JCBee on Apr 20, 2010 11:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Are the people who are livid at Dana follow other sports? Do they get this upset when a sports teams lie about wanting to bring back players they have no intention of resigning? Or when they are shopping a play to other teams but lie about it? Since I follow other sports, I’m pretty use to people using the media to spread disinformation. Is what Dana did qualitatively different from the types of media manipulation and lying that are part and parcel of the major sports?
BJ has fought 3 times since UFC 100
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
bjs not the draw that brock, and gsp are
the gsp loss and greasegate hurt him as a draw, but still the cards he were on did 800k 700k and 500k? (saw someone post it above but have no other facts on it)
gsp and brock are the major draws of the company and the fact that they have fought a combined 1 time since 100 has really hurt the ppv numbers
i don't argue with that
just correcting the guy that said BJ fought one time since UFC 100
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
o ok didnt see that
kinda hard to make that mistake too i mean we did talk about his 3 fights nonstop after they happened
Nearly a year after UFC 100, Zuffa has come no where near repeating its success, despite having mounted more events in the last nine months than ever.
It’s strange to see the overwhelming success of one event be regarded as a negative because it did not become the new standard. It’s like considering an MLB all star a failure because he wasn’t league MVP.
by Stanlee on Apr 20, 2010 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Yea, I don’t get why people keep acting like the UFC not doing 1.7 million PPV buys every time is a bad thing.
UFC 100 was the perfect storm of lots of title fights, big names, Brock Lesnar, and the magical number 100. It’s going to take a lot to even come close to that, and not coming close is not a failure by any stretch of the imagination.
Schedule comes out today. Hope the Saints are nice to the Seahawks this season and only, ONLY, beat them 42-3.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
by SSreporters on Apr 20, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
u ever think there might be an undisputed cover curse?
forrest and gsp were on the covers
forrest lost his title and got destroyed by silva
gsp tore his groin and was out for months
lets see what happens to brock
I have a feeling that people are jumping the gun on Kid being on the undercard. It’s likely that Lashley will be bumped back to June, and Roger Gracie is a notorious flake. Personally, I expect to see Kid on TV, and these kinds of points are a little premature.
http://www.twitter.com/TB_Money
^ This x100
I’ve been thinking since the card was released that Kid is on the card because one of those rumored main card bouts are likely to fall through.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you saying TBA is going to get injured?
by ufc4 on Apr 20, 2010 12:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
We still got Okami to hope for ! Not all is lost for Japan!
and we might get a come back from Kid =)
Nearly a year after Brock Lesnar’s last fight, Zuffa has come no where near repeating its success, despite having mounted more events in the last nine months than ever.
Fixed. GSP and Mir got as close to 1 million as they have since 100. UFC 116 isn’t going to be nearly as stacked but it has Brock, Wandy, and Sexy on the card….sounds like a million to me.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
So because the UFC hasn't matched the perfect storm of UFC 100, it's failing???
Jesus Christ, Nate.
He never said that. Nate said it hasn't reached the same success.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
by SSreporters on Apr 20, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
it leaves the sport itself in a more tenuous position than it’s been in since the “dark ages” of 1997-2002.
Basically, because Strikeforce has made a clusterfuck of themselves and UFC is ONLY selling 500k-1m PPVs every time out, we’re about to go back to guys making $5k to fight at 1000 seat rooms in the backwoods of Alabama and Mississippi.
by Jason H. on Apr 20, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Give Aoki pants and a ring and watch Meldenz, T. Griffin, Florian, Penn and perhaps others smash him to pieces.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
by Luke Thomas on Apr 20, 2010 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 18 recs
Hell you could start the fight on the ground with those guys in Aoki’s guard and he’d still get smashed.
by ufc4 on Apr 20, 2010 12:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Tyson Griffin by “badonkadonk”
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Those quotes were missing something
DW didn’t make the final connection between the dishonesty of Japanese promoters and the faltering MMA business in Japan. Is that the reason why Japanese fans aren’t tuning in to MMA events? Is that according to polls? His own speculation? What?
read his whole piece
he connects the dots a bit more.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Apr 20, 2010 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
To sum up your article, in your opinion if Dana continues to lie then MMA in NA will fail ?
Get over already please. Your site is great 99% of the time but (and I know you won’t lose any sleep over this) you will soon be losing a loyal reader and commenter.
As for Japanese fighters, its pretty hard to push somebody who can’t win. Yes they are can be exciting but in the long run that is not enough. There is will also be fan favourites for fighters who have served their time and have basically become gate keepers but is that what you want Japanese MMA to become ?
As for promotors antics in Japan, I don’t have inner knowledge of how Japanese MMA works but don’t see Dana or Scott anouncing bouts when they don’t even have the fighters under contract.
And what the fuck is wrong is managers, if I was a manager and my fighter was about to commit time and expense to a training camp I would at least check with the other camp if the organisation I am dealing with has a LONG track record of lying to fighters and fans.
Interesting article. I think it’s worth remembering that Japan is a completely different culture where the daily sports newspapers are more gossipy and they’re happy to run BS rumors to make more money. Sadaharu Tanikawa lying to the media is no different than Antonio Inoki when he was head of New Japan Pro Wrestling working storylines through the Japanese print media, many of which went nowhere and was just to get the company and their wrestlers press. So I wouldn’t say lying killed Japanese MMA. More that the truth got out on a really serious lie that they had to lie about (yakuza scandal), which led to Pride losing TV. General disorganization leading to matches being put together at the last minute didn’t help either. Making up stuff is fine if you know where you’re going with the lie, but if you’re lying because you have no idea what you are going to end up doing, then that’s a bigger problem.
by Keith Harris on Apr 20, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Japanese MMA
died with Pride, most of the major starts went to the US and that was that.
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
by Orcus on Apr 20, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I thought their were some very compelling cards in Japan after Pride left. But in terms of interest in Japan and much of the U.S. yes.
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it wasn’t that quality matches disappeared, but the public interest dried up. Without the public interest, the funds necessary to lure and keep big name stars has taken a serious hit.
"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."
the same would happen in the US
if the UFC goes under, I think the sport is tied up to the promotions right now in most of the public perception, as long as the UFC stays alive (and I don’t see anything that would make it go under anytime soon), MMA in the US will be safe.
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
IMO Right Now
I think the UFC could go under and if Dana White was still promoting MMA the sheep would flock.
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I respectfully disagree
I doubt it, DW is known and loved by a large part of the hard core fans, the casuals know more the UFC name than the DW name IMO. the hardcores will always watch most of MMA, such as SF, but the casuals are needed in order for the sport to do well. hardcores are a small percentage of the audience IMO.
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
Don't you think DW has broken that threshold?
Who was the first person on the UFC magazine? Who is always next to fighters when doing interviews on ESPN? Who is constantly on TV? DW is the FACE of the UFC. Don’t you think?
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Who do you think buys the UFC magazine?
If anyone at all? I’m guessing it’s not predominantly casual fans.
Actually, I’d be interested to know what the subscriber base is for the magazine.
Why would hardcore internet fans buy UFC Magazine?
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
people still buy porn
even though it’s free on the internet… I don’t know, a lot of people likes to spend money on things they can get for free (don’t ask me why because I never understood that concept).
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
And people in that industry will tell you that the internet is killing them right now.
I just don’t see the sorts of people that post on forums running out to buy the UFC mag at their local supermarket. It certainly isn’t a large enough group to justify its creation.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't doubt that their sales may have dropped dramatically
but quite a few people still buys porn even though they have other options.
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
The point I’m making is that I don’t see what the evidence is that they’re pointing that magazine to “hardcore fans”. They print 325,000 of each issue – sounds to me like they expect the average dude who just watches shows on occasion to pick them up.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
seems about right
if you look at the lowest sales for any UFC PPV, it would be around 250k (correct me if I’m wrong, but I think it’s around that). that number can only tell you one thing, “hardcores”, print an extra 100k for small percentage of casuals who cares and you’re printing the correct amount of magazines to sale and not waste money.
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
Or it could be that there just aren’t a whole lot of MMA fans to start with, and printing a million magazines is a silly prospect.
I don’t feel like getting into this argument right now. This is all idle speculation and I don’t think you or I will come to any conclusions.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Because of this

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
sure
he is the face of the UFC, but I don’t think most casuals pays attention to be honest. I don’t know, I could be wrong, but I don’t think they pay much attention except watching the fights while being drunk :p
Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension
As for Kid, Strikeforce doesn’t seem to want to copy many of the good things that the UFC has done, but there is still time to steal a good one for this card.
If you lived in Japan, you would think that Gomi, Uno, and Okami were the three stars of the card. And those were the fights that they were promised to see when it aired later in the week. If this isn’t airing live in Japan, they should be pretending that Kid is the co-main event.
now, the card according to wikipedia only has 2 main card fights, so with or without lashley they might be stupid to leave kid on the undercard in the US, but they are definitely stupid if they don’t pretend like Kid is a very important part of this card in Japan.
It's to late.
UFC/MMA is now apart of the American culture. Nothing can change this. In Japanese culture everything works on a boom or bust cycle. What is cool one year is not the next. In my opinion, lying to media will not lead to a
more tenuous position than it’s been in since the “dark ages” of 1997-2002.
MMA in Japan is “done” right now because of an oversaturation in the market combined with a multitude of other reasons such as: Awful promoters, lack of proper training facilities, etc.
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
The desperation to put every potentially big star in with guys who are so far above their level as to crush their potential careers sure doesn’t help.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 20, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Eh..
Can you blame the promoters tho? I mean it worked in Pride why couldn’t it work for Dream? Sengoku tried putting together evenly match fights and often times Japanese fans really didn’t care about the match-ups
"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-
by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
For a case study see: Ishii
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, America: where there are no trends and where being viewed by an average of a million and a half people makes you an indelible part of the fabric of the nation.
Let me know how in-line skating is doing as an emerging sport.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
This. Japan is very much a “what’s popular NOW” place…fads get huge and then go away as quickly as they came there.
Not to mention the obsession with novelty matches….those are all well and fine for a bit, but eventually the novelty wears off and they’re not putting any meat behind a lot of these guys.
Plus I agree with Brent, they seem to be obsessed with throwing guys to the slaughter. Judo guy in his first fight? Why not Fedor!?
The examples that DW gave in regards to Overeem not knowing he was pulled from DREAM 13, or AA signing for a fight that Overeem turned down would seem more comparable to to the Dana White situation if Franklin, Chuck or Tito were out of the loop. It seems like all parties directly involved were fully aware of what was happening, unlike what was described to be happening in Japan.
It's unfair to use UFC 100 as a measuring stick
because it’s a total anomaly. I’ve said this before. It wasn’t just a card loaded with Brock, heavy talking Mir, GSP, an on-paper dangerous opponent, the English draw, and a season of TUF to lead in. It was one of the most unbelievably stacked cards in history, but it was also the centennial event. It got a huge media push like nothing else they’ve ever done. Mainstream coverage which was unprecedented in the US. Then there was the first ever Fan Expo. You just can’t beat or replicate that.
UFC 101 is more appropriate comparison for an incredibly successful PPV, and even that was still riding the 100 wave.
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So. Many. Events.
Nearly a year after UFC 100, Zuffa has come no where near repeating its success, despite having mounted more events in the last nine months than ever.
I think it’s because of the number of events that none are doing as well. I’m kind of burned out, and I’m supposed to do another buy on Saturday? Talk to me again in May…
You don't HAVE to buy it.
I’m fine with more MMA.
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by SSreporters on Apr 20, 2010 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah...
… I know I don’t have to buy it. My point is, the suggestion that one of the keys to repeating 100’s success is to increase the number of events may not in fact be correct. To bolster my argument, I offer ‘me’ :)
I don't think
That’s the methodology behind increasing the number of events. There are more events because the talent pool is growing and the global audience is growing with it.
The global audience still isn’t the money maker. The American audience buying PPVs is. Seems like they’d rather post up a ton of PPVs that make them money than run free shows that don’t make them much.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
The UFC isn't an NPO
This is PROFESSIONAL sports and %95 of the people involved are in it for the money before anything else. I know some of us like to project the idea that these guys are all fighting for honor, the challenge, to see who’s the best, etc… and to a degree that’s probably true, but the fighters, much like Dana White and the Ferittatas, are in it for the money first and foremost.
So yeah, their business model is built around maximizing profits through a PPV model. If a company like Strikeforce could do it successfully they would. But don’t fault them for putting on the large majority of their shows on PPV because guess what, people will buy it.
I’m not sure if you were looking to refute my opinion or defend it. Basically it sounds like we agree that it has nothing to do with whoever the global audience is.
by VirtualBalboa on Apr 20, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i disagree about fighters
Yes these organizations are a buisness and need to profit in order to grow but, people have always been fighting, when they were getting payed very little and in some rare cases for free, and will continue to fight when they are making good money. i would even argue that today most MMA fighters are in it because they want to be #1 and these guys just love to compete. Money definitely factors into the equation but its most certainly not the reason they practice wrestling, judo bjj, muay thai,boxing,whatever, and fight in MMA.
I find it silly
The fear of some fans of North American MMA that always seem to think the sport is at some kind watershed moment where it could collapse at any moment.
From what I’ve seen, MMA has found it’s spot in the larger sporting consciousness and it’ll be hard to remove at this point. A solid argument could be made that the sport has plateaued or that there isn’t nearly as much room for growth as previously thought but the whole fear of the sky falling mentality just seems a little too dramatic for me to buy into it.
It almost seems like some people want the sport to fail in North America so they can start pointing fingers and saying I told you so.
by Worldisart on Apr 20, 2010 11:44 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
I don’t think Kid is any where near as promotable over here as some make him out to be. I agree he is still a big deal in Japan but the vast majority of American MMA fans seem to not just dislike but actively despise any thing not UFC. Add to that Americans seem to hate any thing not American and I don’t see Kid as a good sell. I bet no more than 30% of the people on this board had even heard of Kid before this article unless they had heard Faber call him out.
Having said that I would have liked to have seen him headline a challengers card. Or some thing to at least get it televised. But I also have to wonder if that is the point. May be they are sneaking him out of the country and putting him on an untelevised part of the card where there isn’t any chance of the film making it out because there won’t be any on purpose. What might that purpose be? Maybe so they can then bring him back to Japan in a triumphant return after Just demolishing a scary, scary dude. This guy has be an absolute wrecking machine and Kid just walked right through him.</Rogan Voice> . With no film no one will be able to point out that the he just squeeked out a lack luster win. Or if it goes bad they can promote it as the fight of the century with Kid narrrowly loosing to one of the hottest prospects in the US. The point is it will be easier to spin.
The other possibility is maybe they just want to give him a fight with as little pressure as possible. Maybe the circus over there has just gotten to him.
Another anti Dana White / UFC article from Kid Nate. Big surprise.
by IWillPartyHard on Apr 20, 2010 12:11 PM EDT reply actions
I’m still waiting for an article from him bashing Coker for allowing the SF debacle but I guess he’s too busy coming up with more ways to bash Dana what a joke.
I bashed Coker before the fight
and wallowed in the brawl on Saturday and then wrote off Strikeforce yesterday. Coker’s done.
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by Nate Wilcox on Apr 20, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
That hasn’t stopped you from bashing Dana every week, so if he can get multiple articles from you on the things he’s done wrong i’m sure you can come up with the many things that Coker has done worse.
nate is taking a tough stance, but it’s good that there are people out there willing to criticize and put out opinions that not everyone agrees with. good for discussion.
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Overeem turned down a fight w Arlovski to fight Fujita. Sweet.
by xbuckeyex05 on Apr 20, 2010 2:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Zuffa will do fine as long as it continues to do the exact opposite of what guys like Kid Nate Say it should do…
by mmalogic on Apr 20, 2010 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Lying about a show you can’t reveal the details on that has already been leaked by a website and you are trying to cover for your tv show that hinges on “what happens next” is a bit different from about every example listed. In fact, most all of those examples are more reasons why the UFC should not co-promote more than they are reasons to avoid lying.
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As for the sport being in a “tenuous” position, it’s because the big “minor league” shows have been disappearing. Pro Elite bought a bunch, then went bankrupt and left the owners of the smaller organizations in the lurch, needing to start over with new names and struggling to to rebuild their old identities. Strikeforce was chugging along as a regional promotion, but tried to take a step up, and hopefully they can survive and keep getting people paid.
At the top, things are booming, Zuffa is putting on more cards than ever and that means more fights, and more people getting paid. The local shows are still putting out tons of shows all the time. The gap is in the middle, and that is where people need to go. The people that have a bad run in the UFC need somewhere to go to make a living, and prospects need a place bigger than the tiny shows to get experience and test themselves before moving onto the big leagues.
It was booming before, but a combination of the economy and some of the big shows trying to get to big and failing have set them back, but hopefully people will start going there. Stop trying to out trash talk or promote the UFC, it’s too much risk for too little reward, there is still money to be made by doing what bellator is doing, and what strikeforce used to be doing.
Bellator is making money?
I don’t think so. They’ve got a very interesting strategy and seem to be making a long term investment, but they’re not making money now.
Strikeforce used to make money on massive local live gates. Not so much these days.
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I don’t know how much money they in particular are making, but it would be worse if they were out signing the Fedor’s and Hendo’s of the world.
Strikeforce would do a lot better on local gates if they stuck to putting Cung Le and and Frank Shamrock on cards in San Jose, that’s where the room is to grow.
Strikeforce can make money with Cung Le in San Jose, UWC can make money with the stars from DC, someone can make money with homegrown talent in Florida, Monte Cox should find someone to pay or shoot Tim Sylvia and go back to making money with the local boys in Iowa and Chicago, someone can start something up in Boston, someone can put on shows in NY (god willing), and so on.

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