Some Thoughts on Strikeforce: Nashville on CBS, Jake Shields, Dan Henderson, King Mo, Shinya Aoki and More
by Nate Wilcox on Apr 19, 2010 5:57 PM EDT
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First off let's talk about the fights themselves:
- Muhammad "King Mo" Lawal vs Gegard Mousasi: For as much as everyone is crapping on this fight, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Most commenters are overlooking the fact that IMO Mousasi won the first two rounds, the first in a dramatic comeback that almost saw him finish the fight, and the second by dominating with strikes from his back. For those writing off Mousasi, many of them the same who over-rated him before the fight, let's keep in mind he's only 24 and will continue to improve dramatically for the next four years or so until he reaches his physical maturity. And for all the savaging of Mousasi's take down defense, if he hadn't gassed even worse than King Mo after the second round, he could very well have won the fight. This fight was decided by conditioning and will more than anything else. For those criticizing Mousasi's guard work, I say this -- Mousasi never tried to break down Mo's posture, instead he consistently worked from wrist control and tried to score with strikes from the bottom. This worked brilliantly for the first two rounds.
And for those bagging on Mo, good lord. First off, his wrestling was beautiful. Mousasi could train for six months on nothing but his sprawl and he's still not going to stop Mo's shot. Yes, Mo did have difficulty passing Gegard's guard, but he also kept up a strong and steady work rate, constantly seeking to land blows from the top and really had no reason to pass Mousasi's guard as after the second round, he was landing by far the most damaging shots from the top. In the course of watching MMA for seventeen years and learning more about the techniques involved in effective wrestling, I have come to appreciate that 1/3 of the game as much as striking or jiu jitsu. I look forward to seeing many great performances from both these athletes in the future. - Gilbert Melendez vs Shinya Aoki: There was a little drama early in the fight when Aoki pulled guard and very nearly got an armbar from the triangle. But that was really it. Aoki would have been well-served to wear a George Sotiropoulos style outfit if he ever fights stage side again. It was clear that the lack of grappling pants limited Aoki greatly as he was unable to stick to Melendez and keep him on the ground. Referee Mario Yamasaki's restarts when Aoki was crabwalking forward really pissed me off. The purpose of the stand up rule is to force the action and reduce stalling, not dictate to the fighters what kind of action will be allowed. The crabwalk that Aoki was doing is an offensive move that he's frequently shown in Japan can be used to land kicks and take downs. Melendez was prepared to answer that attack with diving punches of his own -- as was seen right before the most ridiculous stand up of the fight. As an old school fan of MMA who's come to accept most of the rules that have been imposed in the interest of entertainment, I was sorely disappointed to see Yamasaki blatantly dictating the outcome of the match and dooming fans to a long ugly fight once he robbed Aoki of his last offensive move.
Secondly, Melendez has earned a very high ranking. Before his losses to Ishida and Thomson, he was an undefeated and highly ranked fighter. He avenged both of those losses and just soundly beat the #2 ranked Aoki. Unfortunately this tells us nothing vis-a-vis the UFC lightweight division vs the DREAM/Strikeforce lightweight division since Melendez has been mixing it up with the top DREAM contenders for years, beating Kawajiri, Ishida and now Aoki. Bellator's potential Roger Huerta vs Eddie Alvarez bout will be the first fight to shed any light on the relative strengths of the two promotions' lightweights. And for those who are dismissing Aoki as over-rated, why aren't you throwing Demian Maia out of your rankings? Aoki remains a supremely dangerous albeit one-dimensional fighter. This fight showed us nothing other than that Aoki has built his whole game around the rules of Japanese MMA and has considerable retooling to do if he is to succeed in the cage. - Jake Shields vs Dan Henderson: Henderson looked fat and ancient in this one. And for all the carping, it was a really entertaining fight. I've never seen a fight that went 10-8, 8-10 in back to back rounds before. Clearly a younger and more in-shape Henderson would have KO'd Shields, but that was then, this is now. Shields remains a very gifted but thoroughly two-dimensional fighter. I'll expect to see him in the UFC, after serving any suspensions for post-fight brawling that the Tennessee Commission might see fit to dish out.
- Strikeforce vs the UFC: Clearly this one was a knock out. For as much as I was on the edge of my seat for virtually the whole Strikeforce card, it was clearly poison to casual fans. The brawl at the end was just the coup de grace. The death blow was dealt by M1 Global when they elected to keep Fedor off this card. Booking three title fights on one card was a rookie mistake that Zuffa made at UFC 33 but Strikeforce/CBS apparently had to learn for themselves. Booking Jake Shields in the headliner was another huge mistake as he's proven to be ratings poison on network TV. Dana White clearly gave Strikeforce a poison pill when he did everything in his power to run off Dan Henderson.
Dana White may have celebrated the outcome of the event, as well he should as the apparent death of Strikeforce on CBS will leave a much smaller and less competitive world of MMA that will now be ruled by White's iron fist. While many may celebrate this, it saddens me. White and Zuffa have done incredible work in building the UFC and the sport in the U.S. but I fear they won't be able to sustain their success and MMA has now put all its eggs in one basket, barring the re-emergence of Japan as a second major market for MMA.
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And for those bagging on Mo, good lord
It was his 7th pro fight. Whoever is bagging on him needs to take a deep breath. Dude will learn.
by woomikee on Apr 19, 2010 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Yep, Bobby Lashley could only dream of a performance like that...
Lashley has had a similar amount of fights, 5, but he’s way down in terms of his development into a MMA fighter.
Plus I bet Lashley’s pay cheque is far better than Mo’s.
So I have nothing but respect for Mo’s performance, especially when I compare him to Lashley, who also has an amateur wrestling background but is either ducking fights or SF can’t find him opponents [who knows].
"I'm Nobody's FanBoy" - higgledy-piggledy
by higgledy-piggledy on Apr 19, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I have been looking for a place to ask the question WTF is with Lashley? Glad you brought it up. He looked bad before but he looks absolutely brutal beside Mo. Sure the HW division is more stacked than LHW in Strikeforce but still.
I’m sure Lesnar’s success is what influenced Lashley to enter MMA. I just haven’t seen anything from Lashley yet that will get me excited. Mo may have fought some mediocre opponents, but he handled them how he was supposed to. Lashley on the other hand, errr…I’m still waiting to see what he can do. But I will not be surprised if Lashley never strps up his ‘game’.
"I'm Nobody's FanBoy" - higgledy-piggledy
by higgledy-piggledy on Apr 19, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions
It's laughable that so many people think that was good Ground and pound.
King Mo literally got beat-up from mousasi’s guard. Why in the hell would Gegard practice his take down defense against Lawal — he should have just started every round by laying on his back, waiting for Mo to bring his face closer to Mousasi’s fist.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
maybe in the second round
but once Gegard gassed even more than Mo already had, Mo was the one landing the harder shots and the ground and on the feet.
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I do think Mo won the fight; but it was definitely not quality ground and pound. At some points I thought Mo was trying to prove he could take fifty kicks to the face.
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Cliffhanger?
How did I end up on this bandwagon and why does everything say property of Chael Sonnen?
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He was just classy enough to edit that part out.
by CaptnAmerca on Apr 19, 2010 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I actually liked the show, mostly because there were some interesting story lines playing on behind the scenes for each of the events.
It was poorly run though and I can see it potentially being one of the last big shows on CBS.
I didn't have a huge problem with the fights either.
Mo vs Mousasi was a little slow, because both fighters gassed.
The ref recked tohe Aoki / Melendez fight.
I liked the Shields / Hendo fight even it is got a little redunadnt. It it wasa 3 round fight it would have been a fight of the year candidate.
I thought the fights were all really good, the problem I had was with Frank Shamrock. That guy is the text book example of unprofessional. In the first round of of Hendo/Shields he literally starting screaming like an excited fanboy when Dan floored Shields with that right. Also over the course of the evening the announcers had made it blatantly clear that Shamrock had beef with Shields and the other way around. I think it was a bad move to have a completley irrelevant ex-fighter being bitter live on air towards one of Strikeforce’s Champions on the night of his biggest title defense and possible last fight, only to turn around and kiss his ass at the end of the fight.
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by WeaponElDeem on Apr 20, 2010 8:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree that the fact that the UFC remains pretty much the only major MMA brand is a bit worrying.There might be a lack of progression in how the sport is marketed or pushed and the overall devolopment now there is pretty much nothing else able to push UFC to change and evolve and vice versa.
Meanwhile in the real world, consolidation of talent means better fights and better quality cards.
by yukkurishiteittene on Apr 20, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
For all the bagging on Muhammad “King Mo” Lawal vs Gegard Mousasi, no one seems to bring up the fact that this fight went down exactly as both planned for it. Before the fight Mousasi said he was planning and working on fighting off his back, and that is what he did. He knew he couldn’t stop the takedowns and did a great job of creating space with his legs and dishing out a lot of damage from the bottom. Unfortunately for him, King Mo’s game plan worked even better. He said before the fight he would take him down and use his wrestling to keep him on his back, and he did. For all the harping on how neither of them could do anything, they did exactly what they said they would.
by John Nash on Apr 19, 2010 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is very true. I thought it was actually the most entertaining fight of the evening. It just grew a bit boring as it went forward. Problem is… most fans should expect that as guys get tired. Lawal’s second wind was a great thing to see though. Kudos to him for the will to keep going.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2010 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought for sure he was dead after the second round. At the end of the round he could barely keep his hands up but was able to tough through it and grind out another three rounds. Very impressive.
How did I end up on this bandwagon and why does everything say property of Chael Sonnen?
LOL, I actually said the same thing.
My reaction to his gassing:
“Oh God, he’s fucking done! There goes my brilliant King Mo by decision prediction”
And then he pulled it out. Mo ain’t making no liar out of me.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2010 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly what I thought.
I predicted Mo would grit out a decision, but I felt that was more to him surviving Gegard’s attacks, and not gassing.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
Sure
they did, but the fight was lousy to watch after both gassed. I thought Mousasi would murder Lawal on the 3rd round, but for some reason, he got tired too.. Was expecting it to be a great explosive fight but cardio denied me of the pleasure. A Dream rematch should favor Mousasi as it gives him the homecourt advantage. Cardio robbed me..
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the future of mma is the UFC as the dominant promotion with the best fighters all fighting there
Its going to become the NFL or MLB of the sport and i think thats really a good thing
the creation of a UFC fighters union is essential and i firmly believe dana should help in the creation of it
SF is doomed with the backlash from this show CBS will cancel and not show anymore events and they cant pay these inflated salaries they have off of just showtime shows i see a desperation ppv happening with fedor headlining thats going to completely fail and lead to the folding of the organization
The last thing Dana wants is a fighters union...
so why would he help set it up? And for all the talk of unions, they can get in the way of the sport through striking. It would be good for the fighters, but could utlimately hurt the fans if they get greedy.
For the record, I am not opposed to unions in professional sports, I just know that Dana wouldn’t want one.
Dana would be smart to realize that eventually there will be a fighters union and it would be easier to go with the flow then swim against it. He would get a lot more accomplished in this aspect if he did that.
As long as guys like GSP, Lesnar, Liddell, etc. continue to make the big bucks, there will not be a fighter’s union.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
Why do you say that?
Players in other sports make big money even though there’s a union. the MLBPA would be the obvious model on which the fighters would want to base their union, as the MLBPA is the most powerful union in sport.
The NFLPA, on the other hand, is a model the fighters should absolutely avoid.
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because those unions formed when all of the fighters were getting screwed over by the owners. The unions got everyone more money.
A fighters’ union in mma would take money away from these people to pay the people at the bottom of the ladders.
The fact that Randy stopped talking about a union after he fought brock and got paid should tell you all you need to know about that.
by Phildo on Apr 19, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Mousasi could train for six months on nothing but his sprawl and he’s still not going to stop Mo’s shot.
Why is this so hard for people to understand?
Because people don’t understand how good King Mo is. He’s one of those guys who continually trains his wrestling, and he doesn’t seem to be under the mentality that he should just drop the training to work his striking to a greater level. He always trains it, no matter how good he is.
A lot of wrestlers don’t do this at all. They let it slide, train the striking harder, then try to go back to wrestling, and it’s too late.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2010 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's the old adage: It's best to do one thing really, really well.
I also don’t think people appreciate the fact that both had the right strategy.
Unless of course that one thing is BJJ (or striking in any division other than MW).
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
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by WeaponElDeem on Apr 20, 2010 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions
because the technique involved in great wrestling
is very subtle and basically invisible to the untrained eye.
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A question from a new-ish fan:
I understand that many wrestlers learn takedowns starting in childhood by the time they enter MMA have deeply developed ways of getting opponents to the ground. But in the NCAAs, etc. you don’t have to worry about getting kneed or punched while going for a takedown. Are wrestling takedowns a technique that is essentially immune to strikes (I’m speaking generally here)? Are the adjustments to make a wrestling takedown “MMA friendly” fairly straightforward?
As a non-practitioner, I wonder why it is so difficult to counter the takedown with precise striking. Wrestlers have been dominating some very good strikers lately, and I’m wondering why, mechanically, that is.
by Manzanillos Cup on Apr 19, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
the adjustments are pretty serious
as the large number of KO’s and TKO’s resulting from knees to the face of shooting wrestlers in MMA show. They also have to worry about guillotine chokes if they leave their head in the wrong position. And uppercuts.
The most important technique for a good MMA shoot for a takedown is surprise. That’s why GSP is so great — he sets up his take downs with strikes and vice versa.
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Most people consistently underestimate how difficult it is to fight, and to thwart the will of, a determined and highly skilled wrestler, which I find surprising, given that fighters like John Fitch exist.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Especially if you have the wrestling ability of a guy like Mo. It’s tougher as hell to stop that kind of train from running you over and over again.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Agreed. Mo is not getting enough credit from even some of the hardcores who should, I feel, know better.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
When people say things like “Mousasi has horrible takedown defense” and things of of that nature.do you think they are discrediting Mo’s wrestling skills?
I don’t think they necessarily intend to make that argument, but that would seem to be an unintended implication of such arguments. Mousasi stopped 3 of Mo’s 12 takedown attempts, which is respectable all things considered. King Mo was within the past couple years the best freestyle wrestler in the US at his weight class. When people say stuff like GM’s TD defense is horrible, the implication (usually although perhaps I’m wrong here in at least some cases) is some combination of (i) the guys at the top of the UFC food chain would fair better and (ii) King Mo’s wrestling isn’t that good — if it were, he’d be in the UFC. (i) is highly unlikely; (ii) is preposterous.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone didn’t see the Sokodjou fight
by yukkurishiteittene on Apr 20, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
You have to be kidding
You’re saying that his getting taken down in the Soko fight shows he has terrible TD defense? That’s absurd. You realize Soko took down Machida twice when they fought, correct? Do you similarly think Machida’s TD defense is terrible? If so, OK that’s your opinion. But I don’t think Machida’s TD defense is terrible and I similarly don’t think GM’s TD defense is terrible.
by The Darkness on Apr 20, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
His takedowns are fun to watch. The more he learns about guard-passing and refining his ground and pound, the more dominant he will become.
That’s the thing though, I don’t think he even wanted to pass. He probably could have if he wanted to, but I think he was content to just sit in guard and collect his decision.
because people that say that have never wrestled / grappled.
Its like saying " 6 months of Muai Thai and he should be able to ko Anderson Silva " about King Mo.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 19, 2010 5:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
If they lose Jake Shields to the UFC then I think Strikeforce is done for.
It would look incredibly bad if there Champion leaves for better competition in the UFC. Either way, Shields has great leverage to get a HUGE contract from either promotion.
by HappyLittleTreez on Apr 19, 2010 4:56 PM EDT reply actions
Not entirely.
It wasn’t like Shields was the most exciting guy from the get go, and we have to remember that Strikeforce is really aiming at casual fans for the most part. This card wasn’t a huge hit for casuals as most didn’t know who Aoki was.
Rumors are still out there saying CBS will go ahead with the next CBS card. Fedor, Gina, Cung Le… the big guns will be on that card. So, we’ll see.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 19, 2010 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
CBS is going to stay with SF?
any credibility to these rumors at all? i was pretty much under the impression that SF and CBS were done
Based on what — speculation among BE readers?
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember this fact
A big thing people seem to be not taking into account is the fact that CBS just bid $700 million dollars (the highest bid so far) to continue showing the Men’s NCAA basketball tournament. Saturday Night Fights is high risk, high reward for CBS and they could really get gun shy about going another round with Strikeforce even with Fedor, Carrano and Le if they end up winning the college basketball contract.
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SF needs to stack their next CBS card with stars or else they're toast.
by MMAGuard on Apr 19, 2010 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I am so far removed from the rest of societies tastes its ridiculous. Why in the world would you rather watch a cops rerun than CBS?
by Neil Manich on Apr 19, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because there was actually a game that ran over on
and Cops was just what was scheduled, hence they gave it the ratings. That chart is very misleading.
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by Neil Manich on Apr 19, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes. It was a 20 inning baseball game.
I’m a baseball fan, but I could not listen to Tim McCarver for 20 innings.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
Which may be true
but is a non-sequitur here. This chart does not represent the ratings of Cops, it represents the ratings of a baseball game that went way long.
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love the use of non-sequitor
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by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s true. It really doesn’t help that he beat Hendo though, who they specifically brought in to take his belt (Shields was +325 at fight time). They lost 2 birds with one stone on that fight. Shields might be gone and Hendo is now a little less marketable.
I do hope CBS sticks it out with them. 3 title fights in one night was bound to be a disaster. Especially with all the wrestlers on the card.
by HappyLittleTreez on Apr 19, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody cares about Jakes Shields.
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huge?
the guys a ratings disaster and SF doesnt have the CBS shows anymore to help foot the bill
he’ll get a high end contract cause hes one of the best fighters but nothing close to the megacontracts that anderson, gsp, and brock make
Really?
I could see the UFC paying a lot of money to Jake just to get him to jump ship. Not because he brings in ratings (he doesn’t), or because he’s a good fighter but because he’s a Strikeforce champ and that would put another nail in their coffin. Conversely, I could see Strikeforce paying a lot to keep him.
by HappyLittleTreez on Apr 19, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
i dont think SF has the kind of cash to keep him
their money is locked up in fedor, le, gina, hendo, and the other big names they have
shields will probably get a nice deal but not a huge monster contract that gives ppv revenues like the ones gsp, brock, and anderson have
Not really.
Having their MW champ jump ship to the UFC after defeating Hendo, who they paid a huge sum of money for, is definitely a big blow, but what would make SF done for is if the UFC signed Fedor. Then they would have clinched up all five divisional champs.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
Also, SF won't end up folding or anything.
They’ll just go back to be a regional promotion.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
Why are we so sure he is all the sudden old?
BJ Penn was sluggish and lacked energy. Lots of guys come out flat sometimes. Is that because they “aged overnight” like we all seem to think Henderson did? Henderson has had a pretty good run recently, so I’ll wait to say he’s too old until I see him look “old” more than one time. Sometime’s you just have a bad night, lack a little energy, whatever. Coming into the fight, NOBODY said anything about Henderson being too old, so I think we should wait to see how he responds in his next fight.
by 4seamed on Apr 19, 2010 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
hendo last fought 9 months ago
and hes 39 old guys shouldnt get long layoffs look what happened to randy when he stayed out for over a year and hes a physical freak
again physical freak
u can count the amount of over 40 fighters who came back to win titles on one hand, most of which are boxers (foreman, hopkins, holyfield) but in mma theres one 40 year old who came back and was relevant and thats randy
do i think hendo is an ageless freak in the style of randy? no not at all
do i think hendo is totally washed up? no but hes certainly on the decline
Right, but were you saying this 6 years ago when everyone thouht Randy was old and washed up?
I don’t recall ANYONE saying, “Let’s not write Randy off just yet, he is a physical freak.” Everyone thought he was done. He was losing fights, and looking sluggish while doing so.
we were all wrong about randy
but how often are we wrong about a fighter being washed up? if the guy looks old and slowed down he more than likely is old and slowed down
randy is the exception not the rule
It's the incredibly reactionary nature of MMA fans
Winner is a new god and unbeatable, loser is totally washed up and will never win again.
Agreed.
Didn’t think about it like that, but I think that makes sense. It’s much more fun to use superlatives than to look at things objectively, I suppose. Henderson might really be too old and washed up, I just don’t think you can judge that based on one fight.
I think you could replace “MMA fans” with “people.”
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by Richard Wade on Apr 19, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Hendo is old.
But he’s not completely washed up or anything. I don’t think he can compete with the UFC elite anymore, and to be fair, I too thought Hendo would destroy Shields, and I was wrong about that. But I’m willing to give him another shot to see how he responds to this loss. I do believe he’s lost a step though. There’s only one Captain America.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
I think his last UFC ended up going pretty well for him;)
If he catches Shields just a little cleaner in the first round and puts him to sleep like Bisping, what would we be saying about him right now? I suppose there is a chance his skills had diminished against Bisping, too, but he caught him with a good punch. That quick K.O. could have been masking the fact that he has slowed down.
In Bisping’s case, it was probably more due to his idiocy. His corner kept telling him to circle AWAY from Hendo’s power, but he did the exact opposite.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
How about the weight cut affecting his stamina? I think we’re making too much of the age thing. He went 5 rounds against somebody with better cardio, who didn’t have to cut weight. He could have won the fight in the first round or two, but didn’t finish Shields when he had the chance. I agree with the post above: if Hendo had KO’d Shields following that second knock down, and broken Shields 13 fight win streak, we would all be saying two things: 1) Shields was overrated and 2) Hendo is a legend at 39.
Being overrated is overrated.
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by WeaponElDeem on Apr 20, 2010 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I also liked the King Mo Gegard fight
watched it with relatives that are just getting into MMA and had fun trying to explain how in the world King Mo could win when Gegard landed like 6 times as many strikes and King Mo’s face was just about swollen shut.
Did I miss that announcement that Strikeforce is folding up?
Was the card a huge rating success? No
Is Strikeforce totally dependent on CBS to survive? Hell no
Strikeforce has been around and been profitable for many years now. They have had exactly TWO Cbs cards up to this point. No reason at all that they can’t continue to grow with or without CBS.
The people always clamoring for a UFC monopoly just don’t get it.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
I would add that I just don’t get the people clamoring for a UFC monopoly. People act as though monopolies have a track record of putting out quality products.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I would argue that sports is a different animal
The NFL, for instance, puts out a high-quality competitive product while maintaining an effective monopoly over professional football in America. Indeed, that success derives in large part from the NFL monopoly, because it guarantees that the best players in the world will face one another on the field.
I’m not 100 percent comfortable with Dana White becoming the Roger Goodell of the NFL, but I can completely understand the appeal of a single dominant promotion with clear rankings and a single rule-set, that guarantees match-ups among the best fighters.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
by Dave Strummer on Apr 19, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Difference being
That the NFL has 32 franchises competing for talent. A UFC monopoly ensures that.
1. Only the top 150 or so MMA fighters will have jobs
2. It really won’t be profitable to choose MMA over another sport
3. An MMA athlete will be 100% at the mercy of one guy.
As easy as it might sound, a UFC monopoly isn’t the way to grow MMA.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Monopoly in only one sense
People that want the UFC to be the one big promotion in MMA (which they kind of are already) don’t want every other promotion to fail, they just want them to turn into the minor leagues for the UFC.
1. Only the top 150 or so MMA fighters will have jobs
- this is a very bold and false statement. If the UFC were to become the only big promotion in the world like the NFL, MLB, etc, only the top 200 fighters would be in the UFC and the rest would be working their way up in regional promotions aka the minor leagues. The system is already set up like this now and works fine.
2. It really won’t be profitable to choose MMA over another sport / 3. An MMA athlete will be 100% at the mercy of one guy.
You don’t have to worry about wrestlers, BBJ guys, Judo guys, etc choosing another sport over MMA. Up until recently, MMA fighters weren’t making tons of dough and they were doing it anyways. Money isn’t what is drawing athletes to the sport. Also, if the UFC were to be the “one” promotion and decided to stiff their fighters, you will see a fighter’s union start and the problem will fix itself.
I know people love the cross-promotional aspect, especially things like champion vs. champion, but there are more problems with multiple large promotions than there is with a “monopoly”… just ask boxing with their numerous championship belts for one weight class, shady promoters (there are some in MMA too) and fighters dodging each other.
Matt from MMA Posers, check us out at www.mmaposers.com, follow us on Twitter at twitter.com/mmaposers, and friend us on facebook
except that the regional promotions
have been dropping like flies over the past few years.
The promotions that built up Jake Shields and GSP are gone. There really isn’t a healthy regional MMA circuit right now outside of Japan.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
People that want the UFC to be the one big promotion in MMA (which they kind of are already) don’t want every other promotion to fail, they just want them to turn into the minor leagues for the UFC.
That argument might hold more water if the UFC fans weren’t so hell bent on trying to kill off Strikeforce which lets face it is the largest feeder org for the UFC currently.
I think a lot of those people would be happy to see Strikeforce continue to exist as a regional promotion.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Apr 19, 2010 7:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I have to agree with Richard. I don’t think there are too many people out there that want Strikeforce to go bankrupt or completely fold. They are more upset about some high risk decisions Strikeforce is making which makes them seem like it is only a matter of time before Strikeforce ends up in the MMA graveyard with Affliction and Elite XC. Why spend money or time on Strikeforce if you think they are going to fail anyways.
People (unfairly) also look at Strikeforce and feel that their existence is blocking potential super fights like Fedor vs. any UFC heavyweight.
Matt from MMA Posers, check us out at www.mmaposers.com, follow us on Twitter at twitter.com/mmaposers, and friend us on facebook
That’s an interesting point. Sports leagues are basically cartels among club owners. I’m not sure of the economic analysis, but I suspect such an exemption from the antitrust laws isn’t and hasn’t been justified on economic grounds, but rather legislators got comfortable with the idea because we like, e.g., MLB and they had an effective lobby. I guess the primary people who lose in such a system initially might not necessarily be the fans, but rather the fighters. As the only show in town, the UFC could depress wages to whatever level it wanted. The risk to the UFC (and fight fans) in doing so is that high quality fighters would rather bag groceries (or fight in K-1 or be a real estate broker, etc.) than fight for whatever the UFC was offering. The guys at the top would continue to make a lot of money but everyone else would make less, with the eventual result being an eventual erosion of talent. The UFC would also have less incentive to put on great shows to steal fans away from competitors’ shows — it would be the death of counter programming. To counteract this monopsony you’d need a player’s union of some sort. On the whole I don’t think it’d work out for the better, but I think your basic point — "Look, it’s worked pretty well for these other sports; why couldn’t it work for fighting?’ — is a fair one.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Economics Fail
The NFL is not a monopoly. It is technically a cartel that operates similarly to OPEC. If a player doesn’t get an offer to his liking, he has 31 other options to where someone is likely to pay (or overpay) for that particular talent.
If the NFL were a monopoly, Roger Goodell would have ownership interest in every team and one would be limited in salary how the single buyer wishes to mark the purchase price.
One entity will not guarantee the best fights, only the most profitable at the lowest cost.
by part-time southpaw on Apr 20, 2010 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You dont get it buddy.
You think if they lost CBS they could afford to pay Diaz, 100k a fight, Hendo is probably making 300k, and Fedor is making millions with the whole M 1 shit.
You think they are gonna get that with Showtime and the 500k people who watch it?
Now could they still survive and do good showtime shows? Yeah, but the problem comes when they decided to pay Fedor a shit load of money, give Hendo money etc, I dont see how they can afford to pay these only being on Showtime.
CBS, millions of people watching, advertising etc, thats how they were making there money.
SO I dont know if they could survive and pay these fighters just with showtime shows.
And if they lose CBS, which I think maybe CBS gives him one more shot.
Fedor, Cung Le, Walker, they will go with that for the card, but if they lose CBS, you think fighters like Jake, Diaz, Gilbert etc who when there contracts are up will stick around to fight just on Showtime?
I think you can count on them coming to the UFC>
Jake is probably on his way, you have Diaz sayign he wants GSP, and Melendez just said his dream fights are GSP, BJ and Edgar, 3 UFC fighters.
Your delusional if you dont think SF needs CBS.
to add they have washed up fighters like Frank Shamrock and Cung le and exposed fighters like Hendo and Gegard they have to pay and while all this is happening the fighters who are winning like Robbie Lawler (1 fight left), King MO (2 fights left) will be free agents they’re gonna have to pny up to keep.
If I was Strikeforce I would start mouthing off how our MW champ just kicked the ass of the UFC’s #1 MW contender.
The only problem with my plan is that they’d be bragging about a fighter on his way to the UFC.
by John Nash on Apr 19, 2010 6:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
What?
the UFC didnt resign Hendo, he lost to Anderson, as far as the UFC was concerned he was not worth the money.
THat says something.
I’ve said for a long time That Sonnen would smash Hendo, that Nate probably would beat him, that Vitor and Maia woudl be interesting fights.
Hendo wasnt hte number 1 contender and already lost to the Spider.
Its so funny how Dana got killed for not resigning Hendo and how Hendo was so great and the best and could beat anyone, now its like oh he isnt a SF fighter, he is a UFC fighter, like it reflects the UFC.
They let him go.
If you can’t see the sarcasm in what I wrote, or recognize the irony in what you wrote, I can’t help you.
due to the recent influx of troll, sarcism meters on BE have been disoriented the past few weeks. sorry for the inconvenience.
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
CBS has given Strikeforce two events
How is it delusional to think that Strikeforce doesn’t need them? How the hell was Strikeforce able to run the 30 non CBS shows they ran before this one?
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
They didn't have Fedor...
And that was the whole point he was making. They won’t make enough to pay people as much as they are without the exposure of CBS. That is why it is delusional to think that they don’t.
Strikeforce would be better off being without CBS. Even UFC wouldn’t like that deal. What does a promotion get? An few hours on network television where they are forced to deliver their top-tier card but CBS hardly invests itself in promoting it.
2.63 million viewers would be ratings gold on a cable channel and sustainable. Not to mention the station would provide plenty of cross promotion programming to advertise the events and promotion . . . everything the UFC receives now on Spike that Strikeforce doesn’t get on CBS.
THANK YOU! Best analysis of the Aoki/Melendez fight I’ve read. I complained about Mario a few times and no one seemed to agree with me. Any chance Aoki had at doing anything on the ground was immediately halted because Mario would instantly stand them up. Albeit, Gilbert used the cage very effectively when he did go into Aoki’s guard.
he did use the cage exellently, Aoki is full of shit thinking that had nothing to do with his performance in the fight
When he pulled rubber guard with his head against the cage you could almost see him shit when he realized he couldn’t do anything with it
by doonerthesooner on Apr 19, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
"I was sorely disappointed to see Yamasaki blatantly dictating the outcome of the match and dooming fans to a long ugly fight once he robbed Aoki of his last offensive move"
Word homie…….. word.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 19, 2010 5:03 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Especially when Aoki was definitely moving forward coming to Melendez. I still want to see the fight happen under Dream rules. Not sure the out come would be different but I think it would be a lot closer.
completely agree about mo/mousasi. i was blown away with his mousasi’s guardwork in the first and especially second round. i don’t ever recall someone winning the striking from the bottom like that especially without elbows. i think other fighters should really study that round to see how a good mma guard should work
ummmmm no
You watch nog ,Maia ,or jacare. Mooosassy should’ve swept,submitted or stood up. Those punches just wore him out. IMO
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 19, 2010 5:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree 100%
I was quite disappointed with both fighters. I thought Mo was green and he’s alot greener than I thought, and I guess that statement says it all about Mousasi
by doonerthesooner on Apr 19, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
yes and no
those three have better jiu jitsu guards and they are high level enough that they transfer well to MMA. They all play pretty standard guards, theyre just better at it.
mousasi’s style was fantastic at negating mo’s ground and pound. he switched back between two positions: keeping mo low so this distance between his head and shoulders was added as a relative reach advantage, allowing him to win striking from the bottom because his head was out of range, and letting mo posture up to where we could threaten upkicks, which were causing significant damage.
i think idealogically we differ in that I don’t think someone can rely on getting a sweep or submission every time. some fighters like fitch and (now somewhat ironically) aoki have said that the closed guard in mma is dead. big controlling wrestlers have been too successful doing damage with strikes from inside the guard to the extent to where unless there is a significant difference in grappling ability a noteworthy attack from the bottom just seems unlikely.
Can this style be perfected? I don’t know. mousasi did have to be very active on the bottom reestablishing his rather open guard after every pass attempt which may have led to him gassing later. i think we need to see it used more in competition before we can say that this was a strength from mo or a weakness from mousasi
by phantasma475 on Apr 20, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah Mario is thanking his luckys stars about the brawl at the end of the night
No one is making a big stink about how he screwed the pooch in that fight, and not just dictating where the fight took place but Melendez looked like he could have TKO’d Aoki before he ytried to stand them up
by doonerthesooner on Apr 19, 2010 5:08 PM EDT reply actions
Genius.
Dana White clearly gave Strikeforce a poison pill when he did everything in his power to run off Dan Henderson.
Just after UFC 112, people were saying how big a mistake it was for Dana to let Henderson go. A week later, he looks like a genius. I don’t think anyone can now say with any real sincerity that Henderson could even remotely compete with Anderson Silva at this point.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
I seem to remember a certain someone named...
Kid Nate who was talking just last week about how he was distraught that Dana White would dare to foolishly push Dan Henderson out of the door.
Ah, well. We all make mistakes.
I still think it was bullshit
that Dana ran off Dan.
If Dan had stayed, he’d likely have fought at UFC 103 and 109 and wouldn’t have had the long layoff that clearly did him no favors. Dan might have been asking for too large a signing bonus, but i also think he had more than earned a retirement package like that given to Hughes, Couture, Liddell, Tito and Franklin.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
DW did make Dan an offer. Dan didn’t like it. That isn’t the same as pushing some one out the door. If they hadn’t made an offer at all that would have been pushing him out the door.
that, and to say he earned this retirement package when he chose to fight in a rival promotion his entire career, and lose both belts upon entering the ufc… he never held a ufc belt, and definitely shouldnt be given the same treatment as guys who helped build the brand like the four people you mentioned
Dan= very impressive fighter with a single impressive victory in the last 3 years. not enough for the money he wanted
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Dana
did a number of things deliberately calculated to piss off Dan. Like banning his clothing line as a UFC sponsor in the middle of negotiations.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Dana didn’t run off Dan. he made him an offer that Dan didn’t like
Dana used strong arm tactics during the negotiation process because guess what. . . . . .he can , and if Dan could have he would, thats what happens during negotiations
Dan felt slighted so he left and had visions of beating sheilds, mousasi and fedor and owning 3 strikeforce belts, unfortunatly it didnt happen that way
dan earned a retirement package by doing what exactly for the ufc?
by jackmerridew on Apr 19, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions
A Calculated Decision
Dana looked at Dan Henderson and made a calculated decision. He basically did what a lot of professional sports teams do when it comes to signing / resigning free agents which is put a set value on Hendo and didn’t go any higher. Sure, he pulled some crappy tactics like putting a ban on Clinch Gear, but in business, that is all part of negotiations. You can’t fault Dana for using the leverage he had to get the best deal for the company he runs.
At the end of the day, even before the Shields fight, Henderson over-valued his own stock. All reports indicated that Hendo got greedy and in turn, took a huge risk by switching to Strikeforce. Henderson would most likely still be in the UFC if he went into negotiations with the UFC with a realistic view of his worth.
Matt from MMA Posers, check us out at www.mmaposers.com, follow us on Twitter at twitter.com/mmaposers, and friend us on facebook
by MMAposers on Apr 19, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Shitfarce was done when they flinched on the news of a live UFC counterprogram stating they would move their show after tickets went on sale… I thought Pro-elite was dumb but these nimrods take the cake. Signing Dan? Relying on Fedor? (yeah basically everything Kid Nate was applauding them for…)
as far as a re-emergence of MMA in japan? with aoki being exposed that’s all but a fairy tale. And all these rankings that hyperinflate these scrubs who are building their records on the japanese/c-league circuits are being exposed.
These ignorant bloggers create great value and the best betting opportunities thus far though so keep up the good work.
Flinching on the counterprogram had nothing to do with Saturday night.
The Seahawks have traded my signature to the Detroit Lions for a 6th round draft pick.
It had everything to do with the upper levels of CBS getting sour on it. They pretty much decided to can shitfarce before the event even took place.
Had to rec this.
I don’t even notice you say it anymore. All that registers is “Oh hey, mmalogic is posting.” I hate your impersonators who pick it up from you though.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Shitfarce is good. I saw someone refer to SF as Strikefarts, which is also pretty funny.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
strikefarts is good, and we could transition it to shitfarts. and by then, you can jump the puddle to sharts. strikeforce= sharts?
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your point about the betting opportunities made me chuckle. It is definitely possible to make abnormal returns betting on MMA.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to say I was fooled by all the hype over Mo and Gegard. I was left feeling very dissapointed by both fighters. Even more now that people are now saying, “give em a break they’re both young”. That’s not what was said beforehand. Lesson learned I guess.
by sadface on Apr 19, 2010 9:35 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Perhaps King Mo
Could be the next Rashad Evans. Rashad had great wrestling, but not much GnP to finish fights. Then he picked up a little boxing and got some KOs. If King Mo develops in the same way, Strikeforce will have a very legit champion. That the takeaway I had from Saturday night.
King Mo has far more potential than RE in my opinion. He’s an epically more accomplished wrestler and his boxing already looks better than Rashad’s IMO.
by The Darkness on Apr 19, 2010 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Could not agree more.
And for those who are dismissing Aoki as over-rated, why aren’t you throwing Demian Maia out of your rankings? Aoki remains a supremely dangerous albeit one-dimensional fighter. This fight showed us nothing other than that Aoki has built his whole game around the rules of Japanese MMA and has considerable retooling to do if he is to succeed in the cage.
People like to compare Japanese MMA and American MMA, but it’s like trying to compare apples and oranges. Say what you will about Aoki but I doubt that the match would’ve looked the same if it was contested in DREAM.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 19, 2010 5:20 PM EDT reply actions
But what does that say about Aoki needing special pants to help him win?
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
It's not the pants necessarily.
It’s his style of fight – he relies heavily on not being elbowed, not being stood up immediately, not being pinned against a cage, and fighting in an area with less room for his opponent to move. What does it say about Couture that he’s a master at using the cage to control opponents? Nothing, just that he is more suited to fighting in a cage – and Aoki is more suited to fighting in a ring.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 19, 2010 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm aware, just stating that his style is more suited to DREAM rules than any American rules.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 19, 2010 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It says he doesn’t primarily train for fighting in North America under the unified rules. It says he usually fights under a different rule set. It’s like putting Maia in K1 and then asking what it says about MMA.
Seen a lot of yellow cards in Strikeforce? They do a 10min + 5 min event? They judge the entire event rather than round by round? I can go on and on.
maia was ranked #5 in the weakest division in mma
aoki was being considered #1 in probably the strongest divison
would he have done better if the fight was in dream? probably but he still got his ass beat
No doubt, but does his loss mean that all of Japanese MMA blows and American MMA is the best? No, one can’t be superior to the other because they’re different – they can’t be directly compared.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 19, 2010 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions
the thing most of you are missing
is that Melendez = Japanese MMA. He’s been fighting at the highest levels of Japanese MMA for several years.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Nate Wilcox on Apr 19, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Exactly. What’s his crossover to the UFC and “American” MMA. Josh Thompson and Clay Guida five years ago?
thomson = razor rob, melendez= varner with sub defense. cerrone and bendo should make the move to the ufc before melendez gets the call. shalorus probably will sooner or later too
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
get over it.
Josh Thomson is far far more well rounded than Razer Rob. Melendez would squash Varner like he beat down Guida.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
i know, ive beaten the cerrone horse to death. but i’d rather see his style any day than a guy who has shitty boxing + a wrestling base. and as much as i hate varner, i’d have to disagree. he has better wrestling credentials, looks to be a bit larger, and much heavier hands. he is just an idiot with a big mouth and no sub defense.
and thomson may be more well rounded, but he chooses to crapkickbox instead of utlizing other skills
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Varner with sub defense is a pretty good fighter. I would also speculate that Melendez is a better Varner but that’s subjective.
varner is probably heavier handed though… but i think the came gilbert trains out of makes him pretty unbeatable against jj guys, so his combo may be a bit better… im just getting really tired of lw boxer/wrestlers. i want huertas, cerrones, florians, fishers
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And for those who are dismissing Aoki as over-rated, why aren’t you throwing Demian Maia out of your rankings?
Maia lost to Nate Marquardt and Anderson Silva. Aoki lost to Gilbert Melendez.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Apr 19, 2010 5:38 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Gilbert Melendez
is a top tier fighter. After he beat Kawajiri and was undefeated he consistently ranked in the top 5. He’s avenged his only two losses to Ishida and Thomson and has the perfect skill set to do well in the UFC.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Anderson Silva is arguably the pfp best fighter in the world. Nate Marquardt has been a top 3 middleweight for years. Melendez’ credentials pale in comparison.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Apr 19, 2010 7:51 PM EDT up reply actions
the kid's basically undefeated
and has been fighting top tier competition for years. He’s as good as anyone in the lightweight division based on accomplishments.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I love the anti-Zuffa comments.....
Dana White may have celebrated the outcome of the event, as well he should as the apparent death of Strikeforce on CBS will leave a much smaller and less competitive world of MMA that will now be ruled by White’s iron fist. While many may celebrate this, it saddens me. White and Zuffa have done incredible work in building the UFC and the sport in the U.S. but I fear they won’t be able to sustain their success and MMA has now put all its eggs in one basket, barring the re-emergence of Japan as a second major market for MMA.
Why would someone think this? What has Zuffa done to HURT the sport? Where are the legions of haters condemning the NBA, NFL, MLB, NASCAR and the NHL for being a monopoly league. Those leages ARE the sport. I don’t have a problem with the UFC being MMA for the most part.
Of course you need regional shows and amateur shows but splitting top of the line talent into 2 and 3 major promotions just doesn’t work. It’s really NOT good for the sport.
by JimJoe on Apr 19, 2010 5:47 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
from above
Difference being
That the NFL has 32 franchises competing for talent. A UFC monopoly ensures that.
1. Only the top 150 or so MMA fighters will have jobs
2. It really won’t be profitable to choose MMA over another sport
3. An MMA athlete will be 100% at the mercy of one guy.
As easy as it might sound, a UFC monopoly isn’t the way to grow MMA.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Apr 19, 2010 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
Killing any competition
In an effort to suppress salaries is not all that great for the sport.
" Tell me something Steve, How does a guy from Puerto Rico loose a ball in the Sun? "
by aaronb on Apr 19, 2010 10:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
They’ll still have to compete for top athletes with other major sports.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Apr 19, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
"Yes, Mo did have difficulty passing Gegard's guard"
Understatement of the year right there. Don’t get me wrong I’m not knocking Mo at all he looked solid other than the fact he could not advance position. I had him losing the second round even though Mousasi was on his back and apparently the judges agreed.
If he works on being able to pass guard more efficiently he becomes scary (well even more so).
We may see them fight again very soon
Both Mo and Mousasi are supposedly participating in the Dream light heavyweight tournament, which means they’ll likely be facing each other at some point.
Was just about to say this...
What will people’s opinion be if Gegard just comes out and straight knock’s Mo’s block off ala Mousassi-Babalu in the first round of the LHW GP??
Call me slow, but I don’t get how Gil’s victory over Aoki proves how overrated Japanes MMA is? Didn’t Gil make a name for himself fighting and winning in Japan? Aren’t they both competing in the same talent pool?
It doesnt prove that at all, but the tuffers always try to shit on japanese mma and will use anything they can to do so…..even at the expense of having a logical explanation.
The same about people saying Aoki is overrated. Everybody loses. Aoki built his rep on solid wins over quality opponents. It doesnt mean he is unbeatable. Plus, this was his first fight outside japan and first fight in the cage against an excellent opponent who fought a smart fight. This outcome says more about Melendez that Aoki to me.
To quote Gil himself: “I’d like to hope that people would look at it and really give me some credit for beating the #2 guy in the world not just me beating some guy who shouldn’e be ranked or something cause I think Shinya’s one of the toughest guys and Im really proud of my performance.”
Wrong and Right
Fighters that fight in Japanese MMA aren’t overrated. We have seen some of the best fighters in the world grow and develop across the Pacific. Japanese fighters, on the other hand, are overrated. This is not because they aren’t talent or great fighters, it’s because they are behind in their development when it comes to the wrestling aspect of MMA. This is why you usually (not always) see Japanese fighters lose to great wrestlers that can control them on the ground.
Matt from MMA Posers, check us out at www.mmaposers.com, follow us on Twitter at twitter.com/mmaposers, and friend us on facebook
i was going to say the exact same thing. if takedowns couldnt win decisions in mma, we wouldnt have the advantage. the fact that a (insert good wrestler here) could outdecision someone with fantastic striking and otherwise good grappling skills means that a lot of the japanese fighters will seem overrated and american fighters would seem overrated
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldnt dispute the fact that US fighters are generally better wrestlers that Japanese fighters. That doesnt mean that Japanese fighters are overrated though. The japanese scoring system that has valued the effort to finish the fight so highly has helped develop the style of Japanese MMA.
Many good japanese fighters haven’t been concerned about missing a submission and ending up on the bottom because the attempt at a submission is valued and from the bottom they can attempt many submissions and win fights. Look at Aoki v Hansen 2. Aoki was on top most of the fight, but most would agree he would have probably lost had he not submitted Hansen. Many US fighters are far more reluctant to attempt submissions that would relinquish positional dominance.
There are many US based fights where the decision would be reversed if the fight were judged according to japanese rules. I dunno, I guess I just disagree with measuring one groups skill set against rules that their skills werent developed to take advantage of.
If anybody specifically rates the average japanese fighters wrestling as good as the average US fighters wrestling, then yes, Japanese fighters are overrated. But otherwise, its a claim that I dont agree with.
Although I largely agree with your point, Melendez has a style that is at least much more similar to styles of fighters found at the higher levels of the UFC, so he can serve a little bit better for comparison.
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by Rundownloser on Apr 20, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I never really felt like Mousasi was winning the fight. I guess the judges disagree with me too though, b/c they all had him winning a round as well. But really nothing in that fight surprised me; I figured Mo would surprise plenty of people and even if he lost would show he could hang with better fighters.
I’m totally with you on the Aoki thing though. I get the stand-up when the fighter is laying there waiting to get up and can’t b/c the other fight wont’ back up and isn’t attacking. But if the guy on the ground is trying some offense from the ground, let him.
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Another good one from kid nate...
If you are finally getting use to new judging and refing trends, then prepare to get use to some more.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
Yamasaki’s restarts when Aoki was crabwalking forward really pissed me off. The purpose of the stand up rule is to force the action and reduce stalling, not dictate to the fighters what kind of action will be allowed. The crabwalk that Aoki was doing is an offensive move that he’s frequently shown in Japan can be used to land kicks and take downs.
Buttscoot = standup. The refs should not change their method of reffing based on who is fighting. Leites couldn’t buttscoot either. It’s just how it goes.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2010 8:44 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It’s something that ALWAYS will get stood up though. A pure JJ guy can’t just go to his back and crabwalk every time he’s against a striker. It’s not something that is ever allowed.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 19, 2010 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
torres is allowed to do it a little bit occasionally
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What I thought was BS
was that Yamasaki was waiting, in both instances of stand up, until after Melendez rained down a huge blow on Aoki before he stood them up. It made no sense at all. Why not stand the fighters up during the buttscoot? He waited too long and it almost looked like he had money on the fight being a decision, lol. The second time, Melendez appeared to have almost knocked Aoki out. He thought that he had won the fight by TKO when Yamasaki stepped in.
he was trying to, he just did a terrible job of it.
The second time he definitely said “stop” before Melendez dove into him, but you don’t have a standup by saying “stop;” especially if the guy standing hasn’t signified that he wants one.
If he is going to stand the fight up he needs to make sure there is an actual break in the action, and physically get in the way.
I don’t think they should be standing up 1 fighter unless the standing fighter is far enough away that the bottom guy can’t grab him and pull him down and the standing fighter wants the other guy up, it shouldn’t be solely up to the ref’s discretion like when there is a stalled clinch or action is stalled on the ground.
If Shields leaves for the UFC
Strikeforce is in trouble. Hendo will go on and win the 205 title belt. I don’t think Kingo Mo can beat Dan. Hendo might then go fight the new 185 champ (who knows who it will be) and Dan has a very very good chance of winning it too. Dana will be able to tell the world how Shields beat the Strikeforce belt holder (in 2 weight classes) and he couldn’t beat GSP.
Shields value is higher to Strikeforce than the UFC, I just don’t know if they have the bankroll to stop Dana.
now if a blown up middleweight could lay on hendo
what makes you think lawal couldnt do it to hendo? mousasi is infinitely more active off his back
by Austin Martin on Apr 19, 2010 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
1st Rec’d for Truth.
2nd I can see Coker excercising his right for one final fight and doing a rematch right away with either Hendo, Miller or Lawler, then renegotiating. And if Dana is/were to drive up Shields price and then NOT sign him, would make him pretty damn low, or lower then what most already think of him. Also I highly doubt this is the last card we see on CBS, if for nothing else Kahl stated that selling advertising was pretty easy an viable/profitable, as well as they have to know it can only get better(production/ratings/ect. ect.) imho. That an they seem to love Fedor :P
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