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Strikeforce Nashville or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Wrestling

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Say what you want about Strikeforce: Nashville.  There are many losers from Saturday night, but the big winner was the amazing display of wrestling. Specifically American wrestling.  I know we've seen these displays of brilliant wrestling in the past, many times, but I am constantly amazed at how under appreciated wrestling is, even today. Typical accusations of "Lay'n Pray" do have some validity when it comes to certain fighters, but what I find that what gets overlooked is all the technique and brilliance that a great wrestler can portray.  Sure, some of the fights on Saturday Night left something to be desired, and in most cases were very one-sided, but as I re-watched the fights today, ignoring the drama, I noticed that we got to see three great wrestling performances.

First you had King Mo, who took Gegard Mousasi down at will.  It wasn't even close.  Mousasi's sprawl was nonexistent.  Then you had Gilbert Melendez absolutely mauling Aoki when there was action.  He even fearlessly jumped into Aoki's guard once or twice.  Aoki was not strong enough to keep Melendez down, nor did he have a backup plan when it was clear he could do nothing to stop Melendez's wrestle/boxing style.  And finally, we saw Jake Shields out-wrestle a tired, shell of his former self, Dan Henderson.  Now I don't feel Henderson ever used his wrestling as effectively as he could have during his career, but Shields showed what can be achieved when you marry great wrestling skills with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.  Sure, he didn't get the submission, but Shields showed resiliency under pressure during the first round and came back to score four straight dominating rounds to take the decision by easily wrestling Henderson to the mat and more importantly, holding him there with great positioning and guard passing to the mount. I wouldn't call myself a Shields fan, but I do appreciate the skills he brings to the table.

I would have to say that the most important discipline in MMA is wrestling. Even more so than BJJ. That ability to control your opponent and dictate where the fight goes – keep it standing or take it to the ground – is probably the most important tool to have when in a fight. If a fighter can become an expert at position control, it gives them a distinct advantage, not to mention it scores points.  If a good wrestler can learn some good submission defense, he’d be nearly unstoppable. We've also seen how far a fighter with great wrestling and good stand-up can go.  Just ask Chuck Liddell, who for years used his wrestling to keep it standing and KO guys.  If you were in the cage with him, you had no choice but to get KO'd.  On top of that, if you have someone like Georges St. Pierre, who you can't take down, and who can keep you guessing by taking you down at will, or clocking you with punches or kicks – forget about it.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 35 comments  |  5 recs  | 

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Interesting look.

You’re pretty well spot on with your assessment of wrestling and its importance in MMA. Lawal looked pretty well done in respect to gas in his tank toward the end of the first, but his wrestling superiority enabled him to persevere. Shields’ wrestling and BJJ were what got him the win. I know we’re supposed to acknowledge how good Shields is, but his standup is just dreadful and is a limiting factor for him, I believe. That said, wrestling won the day.

by Cannon Jacques on Apr 19, 2010 3:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, still not a Shields fan. He couldn’t avoid Hendo’s lumbering right hand even though it was clear Hendo was only headhunting like he always does. Shields got more respect from me, but I can’t wait for GSP to fight destroy him.

I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP

by pud333 on Apr 19, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shields vs. Koscheck

. . . who takes it in a “wrestling for MMA” contest (no standing strikes)?

I think, after decimating an olympic-caliber wrestler in Hendo, its difficult to gauge how Shields would do wrestling against GSP in a lower weight class.

Koscheck was aaaaalmost there when he fought GSP. And he was a D1 national champ.

What does this all mean? Why is MMAth so USELESS?!

I love me some me.

by Medium Nog on Apr 20, 2010 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here

We’re on national television!

Moisture is the essence of wetness.

by troy145 on Apr 19, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gentlemen you can't fight in here

But what do I know? Sometimes this happens in MMA when you get all that testosterone.

follow me twitter.com/GotaHemmi

by Brian Hemminger on Apr 19, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

it’s true, cause’ Gus says it is!

"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield

by WeaponElDeem on Apr 20, 2010 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

i think the unified rules are very wrestling-friendly
if we add knees on the ground and upkicks, i doubt wrestling would be as effective as it is now
how many times we have guys stalling for minutes for a takedown from a north/south position?
i can argue vera would’ve probably fared better vs jones if upkick was legal

Cigano, it is your time to avenge your master's loss!

Making the world a better place, one dirtbag at a time.

by CC11 on Apr 19, 2010 4:41 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Knees and upkicks could be a potential game changer for sure.

I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP

by pud333 on Apr 19, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

you guys will really be upset if they add those rules and those wrestlers just go straight to north south and start kneeing people to kingdom come.

by Phildo on Apr 19, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I don’t think that would upset anyone, it would certainly be better than 10-20 minutes of a wrestler sitting in someone’s guard.

by Toolshed on Apr 19, 2010 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

i know i wouldn’t be upset
at least it’s not LnP

Cigano, it is your time to avenge your master's loss!

Making the world a better place, one dirtbag at a time.

by CC11 on Apr 19, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that works both ways.

I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP

by pud333 on Apr 19, 2010 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

good post

Follow me on Twitter @KidNate

by Nate Wilcox on Apr 19, 2010 6:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Thanks.

I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP

by pud333 on Apr 19, 2010 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

We have seen the tide come in and go out on all the martial arts. In the early days BJJ had a reall good run. Then then GNP via wresting countered that. That The big hands of Chuck was killing wrestlers etc, etc. Heck 6 moths ago it was declared “The age of Karate” 3 months ago that claim was famously challenged. Wrestling is having it’s day. But the fighters know they need to come with an answer and the ones that do will be the champions of the future.

by j.villain on Apr 19, 2010 7:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Hence, the beauty of a sport still growing: constant evolution.

This is one of those rare moments when we can watch a sport evolve like this by leaps and bounds. Sure, Hockey, Football and Baseball are all changing too, but not at the rate MMA is.

I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP

by pud333 on Apr 19, 2010 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Rec'd

Just for the title haha

But if you are stupid, you will be beaten with a stick - Proverbs 10:13

by Ominous on Apr 19, 2010 8:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Im still not completely sold

on the idea that wrestling is the most important discipline in MMA because I dont think there is one. When you have very effective BJJ, Boxing, MT and sometimes Sambo, you can be successful in this sport. Out of the 6 champions, only two are very wrestling dependent.
Silva – primarily MT
Lyoto – combination of Karate/MT
Fedor – Sambo & Igor standup
BJ – Jits/Boxing.
I understand that the 4 mentioned fighters may have wrestling in their MMA acrumen, but it is the least used. If you successfully master an art and acquire decent skills in other disciplines, I believe you can be a champion of this sport.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Apr 19, 2010 9:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Silva – For all the talk that BJJ is his kryptonite, many have long been advocates of those who would take him down and ground him out. Many mediocre fighters with high wrestling pedigrees will probably beat him. Chael Sonnen anyone?

Machida – One of the reasons he is so damn good is that…yeah, he’s a pretty good wrestler too.

Fedor – Err…Sambo…but jury’s out I guess. He’s the ONLY guy who has overcome wrestlers (Hendo stopped wrestling against Ando) and that is because they were too busy brawling.

BJ – He’s got great wrestling/BJJ synergy. And he’s taken out some wrestlers who were, again, wanting to brawl. Though some had to via couldn’t get him down. But those who did…Matt Hughes anyone?

Basically, anyone who tries to JUST outwrestle or take their opponent down and grind him out, wins. I’ve yet to see an example of that fan unfriendly strategy working.

And as long as the greater MMA public voices their support for this ignorant favoritism by rule, the sport will suffer. I say it time and time again…are we watching a fight, or a game of twister? Twister scores points on judges’ scorecards and yet most people seem to blindly support this blatant disregard for the term “fight” as “the way it is, the way it should be.”

Jake Shields just won a 7 figure UFC contract by being an elite twister player. THis keeps up, those 7 figure contracts will dry up real fast.

Random ramblings done. There needs to be more outrage imo. I’m finding it hard to keep my "hardcore fan’ status the longer this goes on. Maybe I’m unique.

Inland Empire MMA Examiner
http://www.mmarecap.com
http://www.throwthembows.com

Think for yourself. Your perspective is infinitely more valued than anyone's opinion.

by bonez2799 on Apr 19, 2010 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

You're unique in that you disregard the following:

1. Chael Sonnen said that he is actively disinterested in finishing fights. He takes pride in trying to take his opponent down and grind them out every time. He is literally trying to do, word for word, what you said (“JUST outwrestle . . . and grind him out”). While I can’t attest to his early losses, that strategy absolutely failed him against Demian Maia and Paulo Filho.

2. In both his fights against Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz (whose ground and pound is certainly more aggressive than “lay and pray”, but attempts to employ the same concept nevertheless) wanted nothing to do with Chuck standing up. His pure wrestling was useless against Chuck’s solid sprawl, and he lost. . . twice. This example may be cliche but it demonstrates how much your point disregards the power of a proper sprawl and defensive wrestling in general.

3. Yushin Okami v. Rich Franklin, Joe Warren v. Bibiano Fernandes and (most importantly) Jon Fitch v. GSP; the wrestlers in all those fights likely were attempting to win based only on position. Proper defensive wrestling, which every fighter should know, coupled with another dominant art like Muay Thai, can be a path to victory as easily as a good fifteen minutes of lay and pray.

tl;dr = that strategy is not foolproof and your outrage is misplaced; vivero was right.

I love me some me.

by Medium Nog on Apr 20, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

……….but as I re-watched the fights today, ignoring the drama, I noticed that we got to see three great wrestling performances.

…….resulting in 3 decision victories. Forgive me if Im not as excited by wrestling as you are.

by GeeDub on Apr 20, 2010 3:02 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Wrestling can and does allow people to finish fights when they use it as a foundation and then build other skills on top of it. Look at Matt Hughes: during his epic run as the baddest welterweight on the planet, he went to decision only twice, vs. 4 TKOs and 4 submissions (and one loss to BJ Penn). Mark Coleman, the granddaddy of wrestling-based ground and pound, has only 4 decision wins out of 16 wins in his career, despite having only rudimentary striking and submissions, because he aggressively used striking on the ground. Hughes was a generation after Coleman and needed more diverse skills; now Hughes is the guy that people are saying has been passed by in the contemporary MMA game.

I think we’re seeing a spiral evolution of MMA. When guys like Coleman and Couture started making ground and pound a dominant MMA weapon, BJJ guys were suddenly out of their element (they weren’t used to being bullied while on their backs), and strikers often never even got a chance to strike. Then we saw the rise of fighters like Tito Ortiz, who represented an apex of that kind of fighting. Once wrestlers started to learn to strike, like Liddell, the game changed; wrestlers couldn’t just charge in, face first, against a guy who could potentially avoid the takedown AND punch them in the face. That was the advent of the dominance of the “wrestle-boxers”, guys who used wrestling to control the location of the fight, shifting between stand-up and ground and pound depending on the opponent and the type of fight. These fighters, too, finished fights quite frequently, Liddell being the poster-child. But that style of fighting was challenged significantly in recent times; to me, one of the turning points is how Machida abused Rashad Evans – who was developing a defensive-wrestling/explosive-striking style – and suddenly fighters had to consider a whole raft of other possibilities.

Now, with more money in the sport and more awareness of MMA as an option for talented collegiate wrestlers, we have a new, young generation of wrestling-based fighters coming into the game (in much larger numbers than in previous times, and with much more advanced wrestling skills since that sport has advanced, too). Many of them are using wrestling as their go-to weapon to start with, but unlike in the times of Coleman and Ortiz, most everyone’s ground skills are good enough now to avoid being just pounded out from the guard; fighters learned that during those early years. And unlike the era of Liddell’s dominance, there are strikers out there like Anderson Silva and Machida who are better strikers than the wrestle-boxers and damn hard to take down, using defensive wrestling (along with judo, sambo, and even sumo skills) like early wrestlers used defensive BJJ. So we’re on the cusp of another evolution in MMA, in that we have better athletes, better wrestlers than ever before, coming into the sport; but they’re running into better strikers, better jiu jitsu artists, and more diverse skill sets than ever before. They have shown that they can dominate SOME positional battles, but not that they always know where to go from there. What I think we’re waiting for is the next iteration of a Coleman or Ortiz; someone who figures out a way to combine that truly top-level wrestling with offensive finishing power, but in the context of the changed (and I would say advanced) world of contemporary MMA. Or maybe what we’re going to see is the sport respond faster than the wrestlers adapt.

Personally, decisions and all, I’m excited as hell to see what happens next.

One last note: Let’s also not forget that, among those three recent Strikeforce decisions: Hendo looked like he aged a decade between his last two fights, and not that long ago would have finished Shields in the first; Mousassi laid a gigantic egg, but will improve in the future; and Melendez used range and striking to keep the fight standing as much as he used his wrestling, and frankly, Aoki is dangerous enough on the ground to warrant that kind of strategy. The piss-off was that the promoter put on three (long) title fights that had a good chance of going to decision, and the one fight most likely to be finished, didn’t.

(Apologies for over generalizing and some historical inaccuracy; I’m typing this off the top of my head.)

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Apr 20, 2010 7:13 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Had to rec that on length alone!!!! hehe

I was being a little bitter about my decision slur on wrestlers as I really only thought that jake shields’ effort was one content with the decision.

Wrestling is a key transitional tool, no doubt. Taking opponents down and preventing takedowns helps to keep the fight in an area where fighters can go to town. I just hope there is enough incentive for the great wrestlers to adapt their styles into a finishing style. Keeping busy while controllig position frustrates the hell outta me. I don’t care how good your positional control is. Shields v Mayhem to me was a great fight as Shields took risks, conceded advantageous positions to look for submissions and then used his superior wrestling to regain dominant position and look for the submission again……there is the strength and true value of wrestling. Dropping pissy punches and maintaining mount as he did against Hendo should be frowned up.

I hope the future of MMA brings us more guys like Brock Larson and fewer like Gray Maynard.

by GeeDub on Apr 20, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

In that I suppose we agree. I think that one of the things that needs to be changed in the scoring of fights is the priority given to attempts to actually finish. If a guy attempts an armbar from mount, there’s a 30 second struggle, and he loses the armbar and ends up on his back with his opponent in guard, there’s no way he should end up losing points in the eyes of the refs for not having/keeping positional control. In a perfect world, no fighter would WANT to just maintain position and win on points; they would all try and strive to finish. But so long as the option is there to take the easy way out (and I say that knowing that getting and keeping position can be difficult; by “easy”, I mean that you’re not likely to risk losing while doing it), some fighters will take it and will build a whole range of skills around that.

And the length just sort of… happened. Probably because all my work at the moment involves filling in forms, so without a word limit, I just sorta… wrote.

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Apr 20, 2010 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's exactly it...

Strict adherence to the rules and scoring, by the fighters, will lead to a wrestler laying in someone’s guard and doing just enough to not get stood up again. Or if the fight does get stood up again, then the wrestler can just go back to the same position and accumulate points and a victory. The only thing preventing that from happening is a pressure the fighter may (or may not) feel from the fans, promoters, etc.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to not award points for a take down? If a takedown results in an advantageous position, then the points can be awarded for striking or submission that occurs as a result of the takedown.

Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor

by mma_dude on Apr 20, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I think we’re waiting for is the next iteration of a Coleman or Ortiz;
Lesnar?

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Apr 20, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good Article

But did you mean to give a shout out to “American wrestling” or freestyle wrestling. (American’s clearly have not cornered the market on good wrestlers; the eastern Europeans and Russians generally crush us and everyone else.) Jake used freestyle wrestling (or at least non greco-roman wrestling) to once and for all demonstrate that Hendo does not have good wrestling hips. The Mousasi fight proved that a guy who may have been the best wrestler in the US is a much better wrestler than an athletic guy who’s primarily a striker. Finally Melendez demonstrated once again that a decent wrestler with a good, well executed game plan is usually going to dominate a one dimensional BJJ fighter, even one with world class grappling skills.

I think that in 10 years assuming a greater influx of high level wrestlers we’ll collectively look back at the current MW and LHW divisions and wonder aloud about how these divisions could have had so few high level wrestlers in their ranks.

by The Darkness on Apr 20, 2010 5:46 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, American wrestling isn’t the best out there, but it’s at a very high level, and currently when looking at MMA, at least in North America and Japan, you can see the difference it makes to have been trained and brought up through the American wrestling system. It just seems to dominate MMA right now, which is why I bring that up specifically. I am certain we’ll see a continued evolution. American wrestling is just the start.

by pud333 on Apr 20, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eventually wrestling will become like BJJ

Everyone has to have at least a defensive grasp of it if they aim to compete at the top levels of the sport. BJJ is not dominant anymore because everybody knows it, probably more so than any other single discipline. Strikers come from all different backgrounds (mostly muay thai or boxing, and then others like Karate/street brawling/Euro-style kickboxing etc) some guys have wrestling backgrounds and some do not, but everyone trains enough jiu jitsu to make them able to avoid submissions, and to submit an opponent who is hurt or giving up due to exhaustion.

Under the current rules that award points for takedowns (I’d like to see a different scoring for throws/slams vs dragging to the mat), pretty soon everyone is going to have a wrestling coach and will have enough of a sprawl and wrestling escapes that only the truly elite wrestlers will be able to exploit it as a path to victory, and even they will need to threaten with other skills if they hope to win against top competition.

by Thor77 on Apr 21, 2010 12:42 PM EDT reply actions  

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