Gilbert Melendez Talks Lightweight Rankings: "I'm Top Five in the World for Sure"
by Nick Thomas on Apr 18, 2010 11:14 AM EDT
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"I sometimes feel like the UFC guys are automatically ranked. And I don't mean to be a jerk about this or jealous – or maybe I'm a little jealous. But I've been working on this for a long time. I don't think it's about beating one guy. I think it's about my history. I've beaten all kinds of guys. I beat guys who are top 10. I beat (Josh) Thomson, who's in the top 10. I beat (Tatsuya) Kawajiri, who's top 10, and I beat Aoki, who's top 10. I beat the No. 2 guy in the world."
"I'm sorry if I sound cocky. I just think I deserve to get to speak my mind. I feel like I've got a long history now. It's not just (about) your last fight. It's what you've done your whole career, and I feel like I've done a lot to be (ranked) top five in the world."
HT: mmafighting.com, transcribed by mmajunkie.com
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I agree.
However, considering how silly the rankings are, and how Aoki was #2 despite a lot of people thinking this one trick pony was overrated to begin with, he did make it to #2 by results alone and not really fighting any of the top UFC guys. Melendez soundly beat Aoki, so I can see him being in the top five, again, by results alone. Do I agree with it? Hell no. Aoki was never top five, and neither should Melendez. But then, there’s a lot I don’t agree with when it comes to MMA.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
Just wondering, but who would you put in your personal top five, and where would you place Melendez?
6-7 max.
I have Edgar, Penn, Florian, Maynard and Alvarez surely above him…
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 18, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Alot of people think Guida won there fight it was that close and was a split decision. Sure Gil deserves to be a top 5 LW right now but I don’t like the way he matches up with most LW’s in the UFC. Forgot the top 5 LW’s in the UFC I think Sherk and Tyson Griffen give him trouble. These are all fights thought I would like to see and hope to see him in the UFC one day.
I don’t care how much we speculate on who Gil can beat and who he can’t and how he will do agasint the LW’s in the UFC, When you beat the 2nd ranked LW in the world you are with out a dout a top 5 LW.
by Shocbomb on Apr 18, 2010 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It can rarely lead to some silly situations, but it’s also the most objective system of ranking fighters. We can argue all day about whether BJ or Aoki has better jujitsu, but Melendez beating Aoki is inarguable fact.
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Why you think that? Curious?
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
1a Frankie
1b BJ
2 Kenny
3 Eddie
4 Gray
5 Gil
Keep Firing, Assholes!
The world on a string doesn't mean a thing.
It's only real in the way that I feel from day to day.
Nah.
1a Frankie
1b BJ
2 Kenny
3 Gray
4 Sherk
5 Tyson
6 Sanchez
7 Miller
8 Pearson
9 Benderson
All guys I’d pick over Gilbert or Aoki.
5 Benderson
ok...
now enjoy your rematch w/ Thomson, I know no one else will.
What? Wasn’t their first fight a candidate for fight of the year?
Wasn’t their rematch a candidate for fight of the year?
Or are you one of those guys that picked round one of Diego vs Guida?
www.mmalinker.com
by exsanguinator on Apr 18, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I see Gils point but for a fighter who says he does not care about Rankings or where he fits into the top 10 it seems like thats all he brings up anymore. And Thompson was not in any top 10 Rankings the first time he beat Gil. ITs still a W that counts on his record but the Kawajiri win was such a bad decision. Kawajiri won that fight hands down I still don’t knw how the judges have that fight to Gil.
yeah aoki just got muscled.
Aoki is awful small next to USA LW’s. Gil did a great job of using the cage as well. He was always mindful of where his limbs were and kept his hands off the mat( the best way to stalemate the rubber guard IMHO ) my hat is off to the little Guy.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 18, 2010 11:27 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
Any MMA fighter with a Wrestling back ground and half way decent stand up and good sub def beats Aoki.
In light of recent developements
we have to reevaluate Eddie’s standing. He is most likely highly overrated as well. Who has he beaten? Just like w/ Gegard, people are quick to rank people outside of the UFC much higher than they really should be.
None of that changes the fact that Alvarez is a fighter with “a Wrestling back ground and half way decent stand up and good sub def” who fought Aoki and lost.
I think people overreact to the Japan/U.S. split in the lightweight rankings anyway. For two years, all the top lightweight fights in the world took place in Japan. That’s going to have an effect on the rankings for a long time, especially when there isn’t much crossover. The crossover is starting to happen now, but people are very impatient, and get indignant about it for no reason.
that's interesting.
This discussion is exactly why I would like the Unified Rules of MMA to be adopted worldwide. Maybe, instead of a top ten list, do a top ten in UFC, top ten in Dream etc. It’s really comparing apples to oranges. If they all fought using the same rules then it might be easier to compare.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
I also think the import of the difference in rules is vastly overstated. It’s the same sport. I can’t think of a single top fighter whose effectiveness would be significantly hampered by a trip across the Pacific because of rules.
well
The difference as I see it Ranking MMA is; I will use CroCop as my example. Mirko had problems adapting to the cage and the use of elbows. When Cro Cop signed with UFC he was at the top of his game. The UFC HW’s were supposed to be fodder for MIrko. The being held down against the cage and having elbows dropped changes your mind about being on the bottom. I agree with you that it’s all MMA. I just think that if all the rules were the same it’s a much easier comparison to make. I also, base my opinion with a hidden desire to see everyone fight under one roof. So, I admit my opinion will always reflect that utopian desire to see everyone fighting in one org. I would like to add. If Aoki had fought and elbows were allowed sooner, he would have been exposed sooner.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Cro Cop failed to adjust, that’s all. The fact that an adjustment is required doesn’t call for separate rankings.
well, I think that's the point.
If it’s all MMA then the only adjustment should be towards an opponent, not a set of rules. How many times have we watched a fighter pause when he was about to deliver a strike? If it’s all the same rules, it takes away the pause. They know what they can and cannot get away with.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
You’re right that one set of rules would be simpler—of course it would, practically by definition. My argument is that the rule differences aren’t significant enough to warrant separate rankings.
I believe B.E.’s own Kid Nate made the analogy with different courts in tennis. Same sport, same competitors, one ranking, different styles of play.
Good arguement
But, with tennis the venue changes, but, the rules are the same. In MMA the ring or Cage is a factor, then the rules are a completely different factor. You would agree that, if Hendo was getting elbows on him he would have been more desperate to get to his feet. The punches didn’t feel good, but, werent close to inflicting the same damage as elbows. Aoki and Gegard would have been finished if elbows were in play, IMHO. I will still have to disagree with you.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
And the difficulty in comparison isn’t because of rules, it’s because of the lack of crossover. Really, the only way we’d be able to tell how significant the rules are is if there was much more crossover, so that we could see how the same fighters fare in different environments at the same points in their careers.
alvarez has decent wrestling
and huge gaping holes in his standup, he gets beat by most guys in the UFC
What is up with Japanese fighters not training for the cage? Every time Aoki got pushed against the fence, he looked lost.
Like being disappointed? Sweet! Follow @teddwelch on Twitter!
CroCop didn’t prepare for the cage either.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
The world on a string doesn't mean a thing.
It's only real in the way that I feel from day to day.
You’re right, but I’m hung up on Japan especially right now after seeing Aoki and Gomi choke.
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And Gomi fought in a cage before that fight anyways against BJ in Hawaii. The only 2 top LW’s right now in Japan I see having a good level of sucess in the UFC other then Alvarez are Kawajiri and maybe JZ. other LW Dream fighters like Hansen, Ishida, Aoki, Shaolin, etc Would do alright in certain matchups but never rise above mid level in the UFC’s LW devision.
The LW & MW rankings are completely ruined now.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
The world on a string doesn't mean a thing.
It's only real in the way that I feel from day to day.
makes it kinda fun actually.
now everything is wide open, and ripe for the taking… but I fully expect BJ to fix everything up, if he indeed gets an immediate rematch.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 18, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m glad that the Japanese bubble has been popped. It was out of hand.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
The world on a string doesn't mean a thing.
It's only real in the way that I feel from day to day.
by Ubernoober on Apr 18, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gilbert Melendez
I’m sorry Gil but you haven’t fought a great string of fighters.You’re fighting B-level fighters in a B-promotion.If you want to be the best,you need to fight the best.
by TERRENCEFROMSOUTHEAST on Apr 18, 2010 11:35 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Florian would finish this guy in the first round.
by HeroCasey on Apr 18, 2010 11:46 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Is Gilbert Melendez a Top 5 LW?
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
by Damon O. on Apr 18, 2010 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
We need the lemon pledge
Ok, but you have to buy that yourself.
Noo, nooooo….we need lemon pledge.
BOOSH
He has a valid point though. He beats the #2 guy in the world, but since he was the one who beat him, Aoki must not have been that good. So Aoki was overrated which means that Gil doesn’t get boosted in the ranking because he beat a guy who shouldnt be ranked that high anyway. Sort of a vicious cycle.
But I do think Aoki at 2 was nuts from the beginning. I think American MMA under the unified rules should be ranked differently than Japanese MMA. Just too subjective to interweave the two.
I was talking about this last night
Japanese MMA vs American MMA feels like the difference between fencing sabre versus foil: The rules differ just enough to make crossover really tough.
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I'll Rec this because it's a good analogy for the situation
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Ahh no
Florian or Penn would dominate Japanese MMA
Those guys could, sure
They’re great fighters, some of the best in the world. I was thinking more about judging rules and situations like Rodriguez/Big Nog, though, and how valuing different things engenders a different fighting style.
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I just don't see it
Their are nuances and some fighters will certainly be better under one format, but I think this is just a way to defend fighters who fail in the US…Simply they just aren’t that good.
This is the problem with little to no crossover in the Lightweight Division. Many MMA fans will now claim that Shinya Aoki was overrated and didn’t deserve his #2 ratings despite beating the likes of Alvarez, Hansen, Calvalcante, and even Sotiropolous (back in the days though). I was not a fan of Aoki at #2, but I do feel that he has beaten some tough competition. In the end, we really don’t know if Melendez could beat a Tyson Griffin or a Gray Maynard (and he did not look very good in his last fight against Nate Diaz). I also feel that some MMA fans don’t agree with Melendez’s comment simply because he fights in Strikeforce. I’d have to wonder if this fight happened in say, DREAM, or even in the UFC, would these same many fans feel this way. While I feel that Kenny Florian is in the top five of Lightweight, Florian’s strength of record only indicates that his best wins are against Joe Stevenson, Roger Huerta, and Clay Guida. Arguably, Melendez’s biggest wins are comparable in beating Aoki, Thomson, and even Guida (Kawajiri is in there too). All I’m trying to point out is that Melendez does have a reasonable argument here.
by chrisbboy82 on Apr 18, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
This is exactly right about Melendez
Just for fun, let me list the toughest fighters that some of the UFC lightweights mentioned in this thread have beaten since 2006, compared to Melendez:
Frankie Edgar: BJ Penn, Sean Sherk, Tyson Griffin, Jim Miller
BJ Penn: Diego Sanchez, Kenny Florian, Sean Sherk, Joe Stevenson
Gil Melendez: Shinya Aoki, Josh Thompson, Clay Guida, Crusher Kawajiri
Florian: Guida, Stevenson, Huerta
Maynard: Frankie Edgar, Huerta, Miller
Diego Sanchez: Guida (anyone notice a pattern here?), Stevenson, Karo Parisyan
Jim Miller: umm….David Baron?
Tyson Griffin: Clay Guida (again)
Sean Sherk: Tyson Griffin, Kenny Florian
It looks to me like Edgar’s list of wins is by far the most impressive, and it’s pretty hard to justify saying anyone other than BJ, Florian and Gray have beaten equal or better competition to the fighters Melendez has defeated. And I think the guy with the strongest argument, Diego, is moving back up to welterweight (where he belongs).
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 18, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
xDieseLx I couldnt agree more.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
But the point is that Aoki shouldn’t have been ranked number 2 in the world, that fight just proved it.
Sort of like how Lyoto Machida beating Rashad Evans proved Evans should have never been #1?
Or how Anderson Silva beating Rich Franklin proves Franklin should have never been #1? How about Anderson beating Forrest Griffin—should Griffin never have been top 5?
How about Carwin beating Mir—does that prove Mir should have never been #3 or whatever?
My preferred interpretation of such fights is not that the loser is proven overrated, but that the winner is proven to be deserving of a higher spot.
by JRN on Apr 18, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think its a case by case situation. It is not a black and white type of deal. Alot of varying factors.
I never had Evans as the number 1 LHW regardless of the belt. Always had Rampage higher than him.
Mir has the seniority to be the legit number 3 guy and has shown massive improvements as of late. Couple with the fact the only other guys in the running are all new guys I understand why Mir was 3. However Mir moves down to 4 and Carwin moves to 3.
Rich Franklin was the legit #1 MW in the world at the time. Perhaps Hendo was the only guy who you could argue who could also be but Franklin was solid at 1.
Silva destroying Griffen is more reason for Silva to be the 1 LHW in the world than anything., I think Griffen is 5 and until proven otherwise should stay there. hes been fighting top comp for a long time not just gunna replace him with a new guy unless he earns it.
Got Griffen at 5 and Lil Nog at 6. Both earned their place over time. If Griffen loses to Nog they just switch places.
That’s a bit different, because you aren’t talking about a number 2 who has been completely sheltered in a different environment away from most of the other top ranked fighters. To me this fight was about proving one way or another whether Aoki’s number 2 ranking was justified, and to me the result was a resounding NO.
I mean really… looking at the performance Aoki put on, can you honestly say that was the performance of the number 2 fighter in the world in that weight class?
Japan can’t be considered “sheltered away” from top lightweights, unless you’ve made up your mind that they’re all overrated already, in which case Aoki/Melendez wouldn’t have meant anything.
I mean really… looking at the performance Aoki put on, can you honestly say that was the performance of the number 2 fighter in the world in that weight class?
No, because he lost, and thus became ranked lower than #2. Again, you can ask this same question of the other fights I mentioned. Did Rashad look like #1 against Machida? etc. etc.
Aoki was hyped to #2, he didnt fight his way there. Rashad beat an undefeated Bisping when he was still a rising star, a Chuck Liddell coming off a win over Wanderlei, and a Forrest Griffin who just beat Rampage and Shogun. Rashad earned his #1 ranking.
Aoki and the other fighters not in the UFC that are usually in the rankings debates all have built their names off beating each other. Aoki, Kawajiri, Hansen, Alvarez, Melendez, and Calvancante.
The same could be said for the UFC fighters: Forest beat Shogun, Rashad beat Forest, Machida beat Rashad, Shogun is thought to have beaten Machida. Or Mir is good because he beat Brock, Kongo, and Big Nog, but Brock is good because he beat Randy and Mir, and Big Nog is good because he beat Randy but lost to Mir and Cain who is really good because he also beat Kongo.
Yep.
For one thing, the top of most every division has a few guys that fight each other. It’s what “the best fighting the best” looks like.
For another, it’s makes no logical sense to suggest that Japan is insular but the U.S. is not. If they’re the two major fight markets, and they’re isolated from each other, then they’re both insular.
Just checked fightmatrix, for whatever it's worth
They’ve got both Melendez and Shields at #3 in their respective divisions.
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Blueballfly must have finally burnt himself out at 8am this morning
Somewhere after that 20th can of keystone light
Let’s not get too crazy hating on Melendez.
The guy is 18-2 and has avenged both of his losses.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 18, 2010 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I'll put him in the Top 10
But the Top 5 reside in the UFC
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
1) Frankie
2) BJ
3) Kenny
4) Gibert
5) Aoki
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
I had a tight grip on Aoki's testes at the beginning of last year.
But I’ve come to realize over the past year that he’s a one trick pony, and everyone knows that trick now. He’s an awesome grappler, but he’s not a great Mixed Martial Artist.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
I agree..
I have never really been a fan of his (crying and flipping off people arent something i like), and i agree, he is a 1 trick pony and i never understood why he was even at 2, maybe at 5 or 6, but not 2.
And even if he did win last night, there is NO WAY he would be the #1 lightweight in the world. Kenny, Frankie, BJ, and basically all the UFC lightweights would distroy him.
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
Everyone knows that trick now? All you need to figure out Aoki’s approach to fighting is to watch any recent bout except the one against Shaolin. His being predictable hasn’t prevented him from beating people before, including opponents that he was expected to lose to.
Why the Melendez fight should change anyone’s perceptions of Aoki is beyond me.
The Melendez fight was more of an explanation point.
Yea, it’s been a well known fact for a while now. And I won’t lie I had my Japan-O-Vision Goggles on for a while when it came to Aoki. The Sakurai fight made me take them off and face reality.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
The Sakurai fight? Why that one? It was outside of Aoki’s normal weight class and the end came from strikes that would be illegal in the world’s premier fighting market. Those two fought in Sakurai’s actual prime and it went to a close decision (which Aoki arguably should have won). Aoki/Sakurai II is an outlier fight in my mind.
The eye-opener fight, if anybody needed one, should have been Aoki/Cavalcante II. On multiple levels, good and bad. On the one hand, Aoki can take a punch (though few want to acknowledge this), and he has tools besides clinch trips and shots to take a fight to the ground. But at the same time, he has to resort to flying guard pulls against a guy who’s not even a wrestler. That doesn’t bode well.
Aoki’s stand up is terrible and the use of elbows = bad news for Aoki. He would be run out of the UFC quick. Sorry but, he isnt top 10
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Aoki was overrated, but it doesn’t mean Melendez is as well.
I’d put him right in there with the top 5 with Edgar, Penn, Florian, Maynard.
I think Gil
Would be a great addition to the UFC. He matches up well with many LW’s.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
To beat Melendez, you need to outwork him. And there’s not many Lightweights in the world that can do that. Melendez would beat Edgar, without a doubt in my mind. The only guys who are ahead of him, possibly, are BJ and Kenny. I don’t think Edgar would beat BJ in a rematch and I think Kenny would beat him, as well. I think Melendez would beat Edgar, as I said earlier. Melendez is the one Lightweight in the world right now with the fewest weaknesses. BJ has a major weakness. He can get outworked. It’s hard to outwork Melendez. It’s been done but he’s avenged those losses in great fashion.
I’d love to see Melendez-Penn, Melendez-Florian, and Melendez-Edgar. I’d actually favor Gilbert over all three. Call me crazy but he’s the most complete Lightweight in the world right now. And that takes into account everything from striking, wrestling, and jiu-jitsu all the way to cardio. He’d break a lot of Lightweights. Edgar could maybe hang with his pace but he’d just get beaten to the punch every time and even taken down. I understand that people don’t want to show fighters outside of the UFC some respect and recognize them as great, but Melendez is a top five Lightweight and even top three. I might even put him number one after his performance.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
by FlyByKnight on Apr 18, 2010 2:44 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
I disagree with Gil beating Frankie. I think the UFC has 5 or more guys that can beat Gil.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
by whardiek on Apr 18, 2010 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Gray and Sherk
I think Tyson, George S., Miller and Joe Daddy would be close too. Not trying to disrepect Gil.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
Stumpy Arms Sherk and Gray Maynard would not be Melendez. They’d all be out-pointed on the feet and ran circles around.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Sherk is a beast, his only career loses are to Penn former champ, Edgar current champ, Hughes former champ and GSP. Not to mention he has wins over Tyson, Ken Flo, Nick Diaz, Hermes Franca and 2 wins over Karo. The original point you made was Gil would only be beat by someone that out worked him. I believe Sherk is one of if not the hardest working fighters in MMA. So, you think Gil has better hands then Frankie? I didn’t see any proof of that last night, moreover, I actually thought the exact opposite. Good back and forth I have to say. The bad thing is, Gil will not be in the UFC anytime soon, so we have to battle back and forth instead of actually watching the fights.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
The problem with Sherk is that he’s on the downside. Sean Sherk’s career ended the night he went stupid against BJ Penn and tried to stand in the pocket to be Penn’s jabbing dummy. You can talk about his past wins all you want but the Sherk that has shown up recently is one of the most overrated fighters in the UFC. He’s turned into an idiot and just stands there, trying to trade with everyone rather than working his wrestling. Wouldn’t work against Melendez.
Edgar has no chance to beat Melendez. He’d be put on his back and ridden out much like Maynard did to him. Only difference is that Melendez actually poses a threat to Edgar on the ground. Edgar doesn’t pose the same threat on the feet. Edgar probably thinks he does but he’s a mini-Sherk. Only difference is that he actually caught BJ on a night where BJ went stupid. Even then, I still had BJ winning the fight. Thing to remember is that Edgar is a guy who cannot finish fights. Only two guys he’s finished in the UFC are Bocek and Veach. Not impressive. Melendez has finished 3-of-6 fights in Strikeforce. Melendez possesses the better tools to finish a fight. Edgar’s only chance is to win a jab-fest and he won’t. At least not against Melendez.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
by FlyByKnight on Apr 18, 2010 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No offense
but you said not only is Gil the most complete LW in the world but also that you’d favor him over the top three LWs in the UFC, and you got FOUR RECS?
"With great power comes great responsibility" -Spiderman's Uncle
by Fake Emcee on Apr 18, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree about Gil being top 3
He definitely handles Florian. I don’t care what anyone thinks. Gil has also improved significantly since his last loss.
He has a bright future.
i cry these tears of lust when i submit to you... my love.
by timetosaygoodbye on Apr 19, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
rec'd
It’s shocking how people are not giving Melendez his respect. IMO Melendez is no doubt a Top 5, i would slot him at 1) Edgar 2) Gil 3) BJ 4) Aoki 5) Florian. Based entirely on performance and not “Should and Could have” analysis.
People should’nt forget that Gil was Ranked #2 prior to his back to back losses to Ishida and Thomson. Which he avengend to deny him the rankings due to not being in the UFC shows a dissapointing undervaluation of International Talent/ Non-UFC. A trend that seems to be in the upswing.
by pRoXiMo on Apr 18, 2010 3:07 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Not just Aoki, but fighters like Kawajiri, Thompson, Hansen, Calvacante…Really there are too many to count…There is too much assumption by recent/new fans (Last 3 years became fans) that anyone who is not in the UFC aren’t any good, this is a generalization and not an assumption that all fans are like this. It even happend to Paul Daley where knowldgeable fans always knew how good he was but was never ranked in the Top 15 no less. But as soon as he knocked out Hazelett was in the Top 10.
I agree with Melendez
Rankings are subjective no matter what. In order to mean anything at all they have to be based on actual accomplishments, with priority given to more recent accomplishments.
Gil has avenged his only two losses, and beaten enough top ten or fringe top ten fighters to be in the top five.
His problem now is that talent continues to consolidate in the UFC, and soon there will be few legitimate fights outside of the UFC for him to take.
by Lauren J Darkbloom on Apr 18, 2010 3:26 PM EDT reply actions
Thompson, aoki, and kawajiri are all overrated. I don’t want to take anything away from Gil because I think he is a good fighter and I wouldn’t object to anyone putting him in the top 10 but I just don’t think he should beat top 5 without fights against proven competition at the highest level. I don’t think he would beat BJ, KenFlo, Gray, Frankie, Sherk, Griffin, Diego, or Nate Dia. And I think he would have trouble against the lower teir guys like Guida, Ben Henderson and even Donald Cerrone. Would he even be the champ in the WEC???
by JCBee on Apr 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Just wanted to say also before some comments that I know he has beaten Guida in 2006 but it was a split decion then and they both seem to have gotten better since.
by JCBee on Apr 18, 2010 3:56 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Sherk, Maynard, Griffin, Diego, and Diaz would all lose to Melendez. He’s more complete (and smarter) than all of them. His pace would kill all of them, and that includes Diego. Diego cannot handle someone pushing the pace back at him. He’d break. They’d all break. The best guy to have a shot would be Florian just because he seems to have improved more since his loss to Penn than any other fighter in that division over the same period of time. Melendez would outwork 99% of that division. He wouldn’t get caught with anything on the ground and his striking game is good enough to keep ground guys from shooting in on him. He’d control everything.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Your oppinion but we will never know until he mans up and goes to the ufc.
by JCBee on Apr 18, 2010 5:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Mans up? I would say earning a better living in StrikeForce instead of getting paid less in the UFC is manning up.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Earning a better living in Strikeforce?? are you joking? If Gil is a top 5 lightweight like he says he is, then he is depriving himself of the biggest fights available and the biggest paydays available by staying in Strikeforce.
The UFC is smarter than people think and isn’t going to overpay a fighter that hasn’t proved himself to be an elite fighter. Since Gil is the Stikeforce champ, I’m sure the UFC would pay him what he makes now or more, but Stirkeforce would overpay to keep their champ. Staying with Stikeforce may be better option for Gil if he can’t beat the UFC’s top guys, but if he thinks he is a top 5 lightweight and thinks he could be the UFC champ he needs to sign with the UFC because his potential salary as the UFC Champ is more than he would ever make as the Stikeforce Champ.
UFC Champs are millionaires and for the most part recognized as the Top fighter in their weight classes by all major sports writers, Strikeforce Champs aren’t.
For Strikeforce: Evolution Gilbert got $55,000 win or lose compared to
Gray Maynard $20,000 to show/$20,000 to win
Tyson Griffin $20,000 to show/$20,000 to win
Frankie Edgar $23,000 to show/$23,000 to win
I’m not going to hold it against GIlbert for staying out of the UFC if he can make more and still face top 20 competition.
Top 20 competition in Strikeforce or Top 5 comp in the UFC? Hard choice. He makes 55 grand which is good, but does he make what BJ was/is making, as the Strikeforce Champ does he get a % of the PPV buys (oh wait they don’t do PPV.). He fought his ass off against Thompson twice, did he get an extra 50 or 60 grand as a bonus for fight of the night? Wish we could see how much a difference in the sponsorships are, because i am sure that UFC fighters get more $. Did he get extra exposure with a lead in show like the Spike TV Countdown shows? All of these are things Strikefoce can’t provide.
I get it, you want to see him the UFC, but is that the best for him? He got $55,000 guaranteed for his last fight, but looking at what Diaz and Shields get it looks like Strikeforce pays close to $100,000 for their champs. That’s pretty good money for any champ not named BJ Penn. And sure it’s not equal to a cut of the ppv but what LW besides BJ Penn gets a cut of the ppv? As for fight night bonuses, is that worth money in the hand?
As for competition, sure he’d be fighting better competition in the UFC, but is Josh Thompson, Shinya Aoki, and maybe KJ Noons or Tatsuya Kawajiri that bad?
I would love for him to come to the UFC but I’m not so selfish as t oexpect fighters to take big financial risks for my entertainment.
Don’t get me wrong, i am a Gil fan and yes i would love to see him in the UFC instead of Strikeforce, but if he wants to stay in Strikeforce and not fight the best guys on a regular basis then he doesnt need be upset when he isnt put in the top 5 or considered the best by alot of people. There will always people like me that will disagree, because the majority of fighters not in the UFC are overrated in my oppinion.
I can already see people saying Roger Huerta is top 5 if he wins the Bellator Tourney and beats Eddie Alvarez. Any fighter outside the UFC that wins several fights in a row no matter who they beat are always thrown in the conversation as top 10.
How Huerta does is going to be really interesting. He is basically the only gauge we have for how the two bodies of lw compare. If Huerta runs through the Bellator tourney and beats Alvarez do we lower the rankings of all the non UFC lws? Or if he loses the tourney or get killed by Alvarez, does the fact that a fighter whose only loses in the UFC where a decision to KenFlo and a split decision to Maynard mean that the outside UFC lw are comparable or even better than their UFC counterparts?
That is a good question and it in it self is really hard to answer, because Huerta’s only real name win in the UFC was against Guida. His losses were close decisions, but because he left on bad terms after two straight losses he is seen as a UFC wash out by many. He isnt even ranked in the top 25 on the SB Nation/USA Today rankings, so a win by Alvarez may not mean much to many. I myself do think it would help gauge where Alvarez should be ranked in comparison to some of the UFC fighters. I think it only helps gauge Alvarez, not every fighter outside the UFC.
I know these aren’t guarenteed like Gil’s 55, but having the possibility to double your pay has to be appealing. I’m sure he could get 55 guaranteed in the UFC. They gave Nate Diaz 48 for a loss at UFN 20 and Gil is much more appealing than nate.
DECEMBER 5, 2009: UFC’s TUF 10 FINALE – Frankie Edgar ($71,000) Includes 23k Win & 25k FOTN Bonus
OCTOBER 24, 2009: UFC 104 – Joe Stevenson ($94,000) Includes 47k Win Bonus
SEPTEMBER 16, 2009: UFC FIGHT NIGHT 19 – Nate Diaz ($78,000) Includes 24k win bonus + 30k Sub bonus
JUNE 20, 2009: Ultimate Fighter 9 Finale – Diego Sanchez ($115,000) Includes 45k win bonus and 25k FOTN bonus
- Joe Stevenson ($95,000) Includes 35k win bonus and 25k FOTN bonus
MAY 23, 2009: UFC 98 – Brock Larson ($102,000) Includes $21,000 win bonus & $60,000 submission bonus
NOV 15, 2008: UFC 91 – Kenny Florian ($80,000)
JUL 5, 2008: UFC 86 – Joe Stevenson: $60,000 ($30,000 win bonus)
Are those FOTN, SUB, and KOTN bonuses factored into the figure you listed in parenthesis or are they separate?
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
Yea I think Aoki Melendez fight showed what I was questioning. How does Aoki fare against good wrestlers?
The kind of fight I expected happened. Now I am no expert on Melendez but taking a look at him I don’t see him having any shot against the top 4 LWs in the UFC.
I also think guys like Sherk (if healthy but may have fallen off we have to see) and Griffen would put a hurting on Melendez.
For now this is what I have
1) Penn
2) Edgar
3) Florian
4) Maynard
5) Sherk
6) Griffen
7) Melendez
8) Aoki
9) Alvarez
10) Kawajiri
This is how I see it.
1) Penn
2) Edgar
3) Florian
4) Maynard
5) Sherk Griffin
6) Griffen Sherk
7) Melendez Henderson
8) AokiMelendez
9) Alvarez
10) Kawajiri
I’m still a little iffy on my Top 3
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
I think the top four are pretty much legit. Penn, Edgar, Florian, Maynard are a solid 4 no real rgueing there.
Ben Henderson? He does seem sick need to see him against some top tier guys first though.
Why Griffen over Sherk?
Can I ask who has Henderson beaten to be ranked so high?
We’ll have a little better idea where the non UFC guys reside after this season of Bellator. If Huerta runs through it and beats Alvarez, that says a lot. But if he gets beat – and how bad he gets beat – that also will tell us a lot.
Personally I think a lot of people are underestimating Gilbert’s chances in the UFC. He’s got excellent mma boxing and great takedown defense, plus bjj skills. Hmm, I think someone else used that same skill set to gain success in the octagon.
I think Ben Henderson may be a really bad matchup for Aoki. I dont know how he does it but you can’t choke the guy out. WTF?
However Aoki has a good chance to break and arm which would be really bad theres no toughing that out.
Question why didn’t Aoki use kneepads ala George Sotiropoulous?
Surely that would have helped a little bit right?
This is only tangentally related...
but what happens to the rankings when BJ and Edgar rematch and BJ crushes the fuck out of him?
BOOSH
I think Edgar should stay in the 2-4 range. Edgar has to be at least two seeing as no one can compete with BJ as of right now except him.
If Bj comes in and crushes Edgar I can see Edgar as staying as #2 or moving to 3 or 4.
Right now Florian, Maynard, Edgar, and Penn have proven themselves to be the solid top four guys,. They could probably interchange and will based on their fights.
If Edgar loses but competes he should keep his number two spot. If Edgar wins based on the situatuon he can take the number 1 spot.
Florian vs Maynard should just interchange. I would not rank Maynard over Edgar even though I think maynard has a good chance to implement the same exact gameplan over him. You still have to prove your worth against other people and not just depend on stylistic matchups that favor you to get you up the ladder in the rankings.
Edgar has been vastly overrated. This is not his fault he gets credit. He is one of the most talented if not the most talented in the division. He has been for a while now most people have not noticed due to his quiet workman like demeanor. Frankie can compete with anyone though thats for sure. He deserves top 5 ranking until he is beaten by guys who aren;t top 5./ Idont see that happening. Frankie should be up there for a long time.
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