Ben Askren's controversial submission win over Ryan Thomas at Bellator 14. GIF of Thomas' reaction in the comments. Did the ref make the wrong call?
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On one hand you have to say he didn't tap or "go out"
but he was in a position he couldn’t get out of and possibly could have been hurt from
I don't know what to think
It looks as though the ref is right next to Thomas and he seems unresponsive. I understand that he shouldn’t have to say “yea, I’m ok!” or anything like that, but his eyes were closed and he wasn’t moving at all….
I can atleast see where the ref was coming from when he stopped it
Flexed elbow, moving hands, leg was moving. None of those are signs of a guy being unconscious, a ref should have the training to realize that.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
in situations like this i have no problem with the ref stopping the fight. the guys neck was twisted at a pretty bizarre angle.
"Live fast, die."
Not to mention he wasn’t doing JACK SHIT to get out of it.
The ref has the right to stop the fight whether you tap or not. He is there for the fighter’s safety, mistakes or not.
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
Askren didn’t have the choke, here.
Look at Thomas’ left arm. He’s using it to keep the pressure of of the left side of his neck. Askren’s forearm, furthermore, was too loose and not putting pressure on the artery. In order to finish more properly from here, Askren should have switched his hips, driven Thomas’ own shoulder into his neck, and kept heavy pressure.
That said, one could easily argue that Thomas was no longer intelligently defending. His left leg was inactive and he was not actively attempting to escape. Add to that his unrespnsiveness to the ref, and I’d say the stoppage was justifiable.
by Kung-Fu Joe on Apr 16, 2010 9:04 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
If he wasn’t being choked then why was his whole head purple??
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by ANance on Apr 16, 2010 1:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
TERRIBLE TERRIBLE call.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 9:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If it wasn't called
Was he going to get put to sleep in that position?
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
Hell no, it was a neck crank and not even a good one.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s literally nothing really choking him at all, it’s cranking his neck but not terribly, and maybe there’s some collar bone pressure. What a completely blown call by a ref.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
looked to me like his ear was on his damn chest. that’s never pleasant. and cant the ref call a tko if he thinks the fighter’s safety is in jeopardy?
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
Eh, I mean that’s painful and all but I really don’t think he was in serious danger of being really hurt. It all together looked pretty piss poor, Askren would have readjusted or abandoned within 20 seconds or less if it was allowd to continue.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s like a failed anaconda choke and rolled into a neck crank, he didn’t get his arms positioned right for the actual lock so it kind of turns into this can opener with an arm inside type of thing.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
So like yea
We need you to do Judo Chop style posts.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
yeah…there’s a way to finish from that position but it has to be locked up before the step over and putting the head in the chest. Instead it’s uncomfortable as all fuck, but Askren isn’t going to be able to really do much beyond where the hold already is and, as you said, is going to have to let go in a few seconds or else his arms are going to burn out.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
It's a horrible stoppage, no question there.
But I can understand what the ref was thinking. Thomas’ eyes were closed, face was turning another color, and his neck was at a weird angle.
Hmmm
Yea he did go limp for a second. Shite. Why can’t all submission be definitive like this.
Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade
That's Toby Imada inverted triangle choaking Jorge Masvidal
during last year’s Bellator tournament.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Flying reverse inverse triangle, the holy grail of triangles.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
It was flying
just in a different way! Anyway yeah… to pull off a flying inverted triangle would be the sub of the decade.
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Flying just refers to executing the move standing without point of contact on the ground. It was totally flying, he got it off of Jorge’s single shot.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
We spend time training grappling at my gym with our eyes closed. And it is a natural thing for some guys to just relax and try to stay composed and a lot of guys will close their eyes when they’re defending chokes..etc.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. The stoppage was entirely justifiable, beyond just what the ref was thinking.
Askren didn’t have the choke, but that was a strong neck crank. Thomas was not defending intelligently. The referee has the responsibility to stop the fight in the instance that one of the competitors is not intelligently defending himself.
This is no different than when one fighter has mount and is dropping a ton of weak, ineffectual strikes. If the opponent is not intelligently defending, the ref will stop the bout regardless of the fact that the strikes alone would not be enough to KO the losing fighter.
by Kung-Fu Joe on Apr 16, 2010 9:47 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
He was intelligently defending. Thomas’ left arm is the one that is being used to create the blood choke, and he was posting his hand on his head so that arm in danger couldn’t be compressed against his head/neck, and so the blood wouldn’t be cut off to his brain.
by Hardcharger on Apr 16, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
As I said in my earlier post, it is readily apparent that Askren doesn’t have the choke. Even if Thomas hadn’t been using his left arm to create some space for his neck, Askren would have needed to abandon that leg-hold and switched his hips to establish the strangle, properly.
The problem was that Thomas was simply laying in the neck crank, inactive and unresponsive, with his eyes closed. He made no attempt to escape the hold.
I have no problem with a fighter allowing his opponent to burn out on a submission attempt, but he has to understand that the onus is on him to left the ref know he is not in danger.
Inactive and Unresponsive is certainly justifiable reason for a stoppage.
by Kung-Fu Joe on Apr 16, 2010 10:29 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
By that definition, a slew of arm-in guillotines could’ve been stopped by the ref, including Sonnen against Miller and Marquardt. I don’t care if a guy is grimacing or has his eyes closed. Those types of chokes are unpleasant. Guys are going to grimace. That doesn’t justify stopping the fight in the least.
by Hardcharger on Apr 16, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good call by the ref
Thomas was out – leg limp, arm limp, eyes closed. Dude was OUT. No question in my mind.
certified warlord
you're wrong...
there’s not a choke there to put someone out
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
also...
how is a flexed arm limp?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't agree
His elbow flops over just after his leg flattens out. No response to the ref. Dunno. I wasn’t in the ring, and neither were you, but it looks like he was out for a sec to me.
certified warlord
Come on, you’re a certified warlord, or so your sig implies…I await your reply to Brent.
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by Kaleb Kelchner on Apr 16, 2010 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions
He wasn't out but he was showing all signs of going out
You don’t close your eyes and let your leg go limp and get pissed when the ref stops it. It wasn’t a blood choke as has been described but his ear was on his chest and that was a very disgusting looking crank. I don’t really see the controversy since his leg was trapped and he wasn’t trying to escape.
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I totally agree
It was odvious that Askren had him dead to rights with this “choke”. Yes a technical Jiu Jitsu practictioner will tell you that technically an arm in guilloteen is pretty hard to finish, but Askren had that leg so far extended it would have taken a ton of strength and luck to break free. Although I feel bad for Thomas, I can see the ref stoppage. Also want to throw out that Bellator is trying to push certain fighters through, not nessessarly like what Elite XC did with Kimbo, but you can’t tell me that Roger Huerta and Ben Askren aren’t two of their guys that are gonna make people tune in each week. Without some of these guys it is just another mma show on tv…
That wasn’t an arm in guillotine.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Any of the BJJ guys here should agree
If the choke isn’t in, you just wait out the guy’s arm strength. He’ll most likely let go, and you’re fresh.
Insert witty message here=>
Yes
But you don’t let your free leg to go limp and close your eyes when the ref is standing over you.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
His fault, but the ref should of tested to see if he was out first (the arm raise technique, or picked up his leg for a sec or something).
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree, this isn’t pro-wrestling. The onus is on Ryan Thomas not the ref.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
no man...
that’s actually very standard when the ref can’t tell if a fighter is out. you check the arm to see if there is resistance. It’s what is supposed to happen if you can’t tell.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The ref can also just call it if he thinks the fighter’s safety is in jeopardy. He went limp and stopped moving, and neck cranks are super dangerous anyway.
The call’s in a grey area, but better too early than too late.
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
Well…
lets remember a few things here. It was not because of the crank that the fight was stopped. The ref said he went out which he clearly did not (he did NOT go limp). He never said anything about the crank.
Also…I think people are really overstating how much danger his neck was in with the crank there. Based on positioning that wasn’t going to get any tighter.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The free leg goes limp and Ryan Thomas closes his eyes
To me, he’s out. I really don’t see the controversy. If you want to wait it out then don’t close your eyes and let your leg go limp.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
The slow-mo makes it look worse than it is as far as the leg. He lets it drop but it’s far from limp…also his legs wouldn’t go limp while his arms are still flexed and moving at the arms that are “choking” you.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I understand this. I’m just saying that it isn’t as bad of a stoppage as made out to be. The guy closed his eyes and his leg goes out. I’ve been out before, I know the body mechanics. From the gif, it looks like a okay stoppage. The crank looks awful and his ways to escape are completely limited with Askren triangling a leg. I dunno, maybe I’m just seeing this wrong. NJ gets the airing of this card tonight so I’ll see it live. If I’m wrong, I’ll come back and apologize for being wrong.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Closing your eyes is no reason whatsoever to stop a fight, nor is grimacing, or having any other type of look on your face.
by Hardcharger on Apr 16, 2010 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m saying, closed eyes + leg going out in a gif that looks like it went limp, and I can understand the ref’s stoppage.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Hardcharger and I agree on something, break out the champagne! =)
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I close my eyes when I’m in bad positions when rolling a lot because i start flashing around the room and it just adds so much extra stimuli that it actually can aid in the creation of panic
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s actually a great exercise to blindfold yourself when you’re rolling with newer guys who don’t have a lot of experience, it let’s you be a little more technical.
Given most of the time when you’re rolling sight is on the backburner as far as senses go, I don’t really pay attention to what my eyes are telling me unless I’m trying to set up a lapel/complicated gi choke that needs me to look at what I’m doing.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I do this too
Cept I also shake my head in disgust.
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by Matthew Roth on Apr 16, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Always wondered what was up with those typos, otherwise you’re a damn impressive typist!
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
The mat is my church, the ground is my heaven, Jiu-Jitsu is my religion. And once you hit the ground you're in my world. My world is like the ocean, I’m like a shark and most people don't even know how to swim - Draculino
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 16, 2010 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Thomas is adjusting his arm to fight the choke just as the ref intervenes. That’s the opposite of going limp.
by Hardcharger on Apr 16, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, i’m learning that people have really odd definitions of “going limp”
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 16, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is the worst call i’ve seen since the ref screwed over Sonnen in the first Filho fight, I don’t know how anyone who has watched or knows anything about mma can justify making that call.
Sonnen/Fliho 1 wasn’t anywhere near the same level of bad as this. I don’t think interpreting a scream of pain as a verbal submission is too far out in la-la land, especially compared to deciding that a fighter is unconscious based on…not much, from what I can tell.
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Does anybody know
If this fight is on youtube yet? I couldn’t find it.
Shinya Aoki: #1 ranked lightweight in the world. How badass is that.
I guess I can see why the ref called it; but like a few other calls in this category: I wish he had waited just a bit longer.
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Ben Askren - "Ryan [Thomas] it was pretty tight, I don't think you were getting out and you might have even been asleep so I think it's time for you to accept defeat graciously."
Click here for a gif of the submission.](http://cdn3.sbnation.com/fan_shot_images/111880/2_small.jpg)
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