The Anderson Silva and GSP Fan Dichotomy
by Neil Manich on Apr 12, 2010 2:48 PM EDT
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Print"I’d take GSP’s ‘lay-n-pray’ over Anderson Silva’s dance and prance any day.” “How can anybody criticize GSP after a performance like this?” Two days after Anderson Silva’s underwhelming and at times infuriating performance against Demian Maia and the comment section is filled with these comparisons. But why? There is no real correlation between the two. Any given fan could find both of these fights boring. Any fan could simultaneously feel that both of these fighters underperformed. Right?
This was indeed my first reaction leveled by these angry claims. But maybe I was wrong. Anderson Silva and Georges St Pierre appeal to two separate sides of the MMA fan spectrum. In theory they are both two athletes trying to approach perfection, but that is really where the ideological similarities end.
Georges St Pierre is a machine. He is created by science, and his every action is rational. He feels like a fighter manufactured on an industrial assembly line. His athleticism is top notch. His game-plans don’t stop at exploiting technical weaknesses of his opponents, but their very biological deficiencies. He is hardworking and humble, but stony in interviews. He is a marvel of modern science.
Anderson on the other hand is much more complicated. If GSP is the scientist, Anderson is the artist. At his worst he is childish and self absorbed, fighting as if nobody is watching. But at his best he puts in truly inspired feats of technical brilliance the likes of which have never been seen. He fights with ego, and he fights for himself. The results are mixed, but if nothing else truly expressive.
In a way it makes sense that fans would immediately think of Georges St Pierre when disappointed by Anderson. They are essentially idealistic opposites that appeal to the opposite spectrums. The fans that appreciate humble, hardworking champions will always be attracted to GSP. Conversely those attracted to mercurial genius will give their fanship to Anderson. They are intrinsically linked, MMA’s very own Superman and Batman. Or rather if I will, Nightman and Dayman from Charlie Kelly’s underrated musical masterpiece The Nightman Cometh.
This is why they simply must fight. There are few fights more compelling at an ideological level. This is why their names will always be listed next to each other.
(A couple quick notes:
1. Obviously it is possible for an MMA fan’s two favorite fighters to be Anderson Silva and Georges St Pierre. I would just argue this isn’t very common.
The BJ Penn/GSP fight was kind of a sample of this, but Anderson is an even deeper manifestation of those ideals making it that much more interesting.)
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I know there have been
Countless Anderson Silva articles posted recently, so I tried to make this different than just a rehashing. I tried to make it at least a little bit original.
Makes sense and you make fine points while using an art vs. science perspective; I liked it. My favorite fighter is Penn though and because this fight doesn’t discuss how he was robbed, I have to trash it :(.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
But instead I’ll rec it because my emotions are all in a tangle from Penn losing to poor judging.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
^you’re delusional, Penn is as good as people think and then some. he had an uninspired performance at 112 but is still the greatest LW in history and you’ll eat those words when he next steps into the octagon
Green Jacket, Gold Jacket, who gives a shit?
by Hendar on Apr 12, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Heads up . . . Penn UFC 112 = Sinus Infection on Antibiotics
Whether it is true or not, who knows. I don’t see any reason why Penn’s camp would lie about that. For the most part we saw Edgar at his best and Penn looking a little less BJ-ish.
Looking forward to rematch or Penn’s next fight.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Apr 13, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
What bugs me about Silva more than GSP is that while GSP wasn’t being reckless, he was giving it his full effort for 5 rounds. Silva has no sense of professionalism; he got paid who knows how much money for that fight, he seems to WANT to get paid, yet does stuff like that. The money matters, or it doesn’t. Don’t get elbow spurs when you’re up against a small draw if you’re just going to fuck off when you get in the ring and destroy your own drawing power. He seems to think balking is a good strategy to get what he wants, when if he just went out and trashed this inferior competition, he’d be a lot more likely to get what he wants.
To be honest I’m not exactly dying to see either ones next fight, but I have to GSP the nod, if only for professionalism. GSP understands that the only reason he isn’t hauling trash for a living is the fans; Silva seems to think he’s inherently awesome and should get paid millions just for being his own fine self.
"an excellent example of why most MMA "journalism" is a joke. Pseudonyms like "toxic" and shitty writing like that dopey article"--- Joe Rogan.
IMO
The “Lay and Pray”/ “Dance and Prance” (lol) monikers you outlined are unwarranted for the 2 fighters. GSP is constantly working on the ground, if he’s not passing he’s landing strikes or setting up/ attempting submissions, LnP just doesn’t describe his style well at all.
Anderson, on the other hand, has only done the “DnP” against Leites & Maia, who both 1) Couldn’t challenge him whatsoever standing, 2) Lacked the wrestling to get him down consistently, and 3) Have incredibly potent ground games. For these 3 reasons, (at least IMO) Anderson danced around and threw odd strikes from even odder angles, and basically just dicked around to get a rouse out of his opponents. Exciting? No. Respectful? Not even. But he did come home with the W, and with his limbs intact.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"
Go Gonzaga! G-O-N-Z-A-G-A
Full disclosure
If there really is a clear fan divide between the two, I definitely fall on the Anderson side. I pretty much agree with what you say. When I read the “Dance and Prance” comment I almost punched my laptop.
I'd say
that I can equally sympathize and detract from both fighters for their performances. Both could’ve been more agressive and taken more risks, but on the other hand, both fighters got the win and barely received a mark for their troubles.
Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"
Go Gonzaga! G-O-N-Z-A-G-A
by ElliotMatheny on Apr 12, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
dance and pray?
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Anderson (at his best) has always appealed to me more than GSP. in fact, i’m not a GSP fan at all and got on him after the Hardy fight, but I’ve made the GSP/Anderson comparison almost as an explanation for my current displeasure with Anderson. Essentially, “sure GSP may have been a bit underwhelming, but at least he’s professional and doesn’t clown around like an asshole”
very true
gsp definitely gets my respect for always giving it his all. but personally i still prefer the spider. i didn’t like silva/maia because of the unsportsmanlike taunting. but i’d rather watch silva/leites than gsp/hardy/fitch/alves.
that’s why all this talk being “entertaining” is somewhat silly. what people find entertaining is subjective and specific to the person. in practical terms i still find silva half assing it more entertaining that gsp full assing it. even if i hope to never see anderson (or any other fighter) act like he did in many parts of the maia fight.
It should be noted that hleb is a huge Silva fan and has admitted to not being rational on the issue!
;)
Oh and also GSP Does not L’n’P. If that was what you’re saying. Honestly though there is some good stuff here. I liked the scientists/artists analogies a bit i think.
Hello. I take stuff too seriously.
by The Flying Gentleman on Apr 12, 2010 4:33 PM EDT reply actions
Haha
This is true. One of my friends favorite drunk quotes from me is “If Anderson fought Jesus, Jesus would go home with a broken face.” And a large portion of the BE community would probably consider me a GSP hater, but I thought I was pretty fair in this article. I was not saying GSP lay n prays..
To be fair, Jesus would just turn the other cheek…
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 13, 2010 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
And vice versa for lots of people (probably many more judging from the backlash online and my anecdotal experience in real life)… Just saying.
Hello. I take stuff too seriously.
by The Flying Gentleman on Apr 12, 2010 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Def. Just put my opinion out there. I really feel the extra special stuff is worth it all. The first two rounds of AS Maia was a show that no one on this planet can do. It was worth it for me.
I am a big supporter of the fight as well AS GSP but don’t thinks it going to happen. If GSP gets humiliated that is big money down the drain for future. Big risks with hardly any gain for Dana.
The first two rounds of AS Maia was a show that no one on this planet can do.
Lots of people can dance. They have copious amounts of television shows dedicated to it.
Plus, in those shows, the dancers don’t stop 40% of the way through their routine.
Check out the rest of my stuff at FightLockdown.com
Really nice piece
Great job writing it.
I’m a huge, huge GSP fan, but I’d probably put Anderson as my second-favorite fighter. I like the two for totally different reasons; like you said, GSP is a no-frills, minimizing risks, calculating guy, and I respect that. I find him really fun to watch versus just about anyone.
Anderson on the other hand is so absurdly gifted he’s no longer content to punch the shit out of a guy; he wants to prove he can beat a guy without resorting to that ghastly “fighting” nonsense, but when he wants to capital-f Fight, Anderson is a live-action version of The Matrix.
I guess what I’m taking too long to say here is: I respect GSP at his best, but I’m in awe of Anderson at his best. I think GSP is overall the better P4P fighter, but only because he wants it more. If Anderson had the mentality GSP has (Every fight is the Most Important Fight), there wouldn’t even be a debate.
Dude respeeeeeect , you re post is dope . I never got so philosophical about sometime MMA after reading an article . you mister just made it happen. but seriously you just nailed the shit of this whole thing . I wish everybody can be more open minded and appreciate those two marvels of nature. Thx for the little piece
Personally I have to say I was frustrated at both fighters after their last matches for failing to finish fights I thought they both should have been able to easily finish looking at the difference in skill they showed vs. their opponents.
Any lay and pray or dance and prance monikers is a bit of an exaggeration to what they were doing though.
They might be a bit too reserved in situations where they can see they are in a winning position decision wise and don’t want to risk losing their championship by doing anything stupid. But in each of their last fights they had plenty of chance to look for a finish without serious risk.
And as a fan, I really don’t want to pay to watch a guy that is going to coast out wins on points. If you are a dominant champion, then go in there and dominate.
but that’s me
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
This is a vast oversimplification
GSP is not a “machine” or a “scientist” he’s just well-rounded and knows what his strengths are. And don’t you think comparing Anderson to a disaffected artist is a bit pretentious?
Don’t get me wrong, it’s an appealing dichotomy you describe. It’s just not reality. These are two professionals who use their strengths to win fights. GSP’s greatest talent happens to be wrestling and Silva’s happens to by striking. This doesn’t mean one is a robot and the other is an artist.
And I have a moral obligation to society to beat him up. He is a dirtbag anyway, whether he went out there and shook hands and was gracious or he didn't. Who cares? I don't know why sportsmanship needs to be involved, anyways. It's a fight - go do whatever you want. So, yes, I will do whatever I want. And when my music hits those speakers, I will make that walk and answer for my words
-Chael Sonnen on Anderson Silva
Yes, this is oversimplifying
Obviously these two are more than just a machine and an artist, if we want to get technical they are more than just fighters as well. My intent was to try and boil them down to figure out why they always seem to be inexorably linked. There is a bigger difference between the two than just striker and wrestler, and that comes from philosophy. Why these two fighters have such a small crossover appeal. You have to concede that GSP approach as a fighter is somewhat scientific and even a little industrial.
And as to the pretentious comment, would you not say that Anderson’s style is pretentious?
by Neil Manich on Apr 13, 2010 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
By crossover I meant crossover between GSP and Silva fanbases, not non-MMA fanbases. Sorry that was unclear.
by Neil Manich on Apr 13, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not convinced that there is little crossover appeal. People love dominant fighters. It’s certainly true of me (love GSP, dislike Silva). In my opinion, they are “inexorably linked” because they are the two most dominant UFC champions and are separated by only one weight class. My entire point was they don’t really embody different philosophies they just have different fighting styles.
As to GSP being industrial, he might be the “prototype” in terms of his athleticism and well-roundedness but I don’t know what you mean by him having an industrial approach. I guarantee you Silva’s training is just as “industrial” as GSP’s. If you’re talking about fighting styles then, yes, GSP is more workmanlike but, as I said before, it is a result of him using his strengths, not by some special design or philosophy.
The only time I thought Silva was truly “pretentious” was against Maia but I don’t think of his performances as works of art—to put it bluntly, it’s a f’ing fight, not ballet (although there was certainly not shortage of dancing in Silva’s last fight!). There was nothing artistic about the self-absorbed and disrespectful performance he put on, or him walking around for two rounds and letting Maia outstrike him.
I think at the core we agree, I just think your head’s in the clouds.
And I have a moral obligation to society to beat him up. He is a dirtbag anyway, whether he went out there and shook hands and was gracious or he didn't. Who cares? I don't know why sportsmanship needs to be involved, anyways. It's a fight - go do whatever you want. So, yes, I will do whatever I want. And when my music hits those speakers, I will make that walk and answer for my words
-Chael Sonnen on Anderson Silva
To clarify I meant your generalization is true of me.
And I have a moral obligation to society to beat him up. He is a dirtbag anyway, whether he went out there and shook hands and was gracious or he didn't. Who cares? I don't know why sportsmanship needs to be involved, anyways. It's a fight - go do whatever you want. So, yes, I will do whatever I want. And when my music hits those speakers, I will make that walk and answer for my words
-Chael Sonnen on Anderson Silva
I’ll agree with that characterization of me. Haha. I see your point to, and it makes perfect sense.
As to the GSP thing, its not just his style, its the whole way he goes about it. How his strategy against BJ had to do with biological terms I didn’t even understand. How he systematically destroys his opponents. Part of it is the Zahabi and the Jackson in him. And you would call the Forrest fight artistic?
I just don’t see any problem with looking at the fight game from a more literary standpoint. It makes storylines more interesting.
by Neil Manich on Apr 13, 2010 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s reflecting much of what’s been said in light of the Silva – Maia debacle.
by The Darkness on Apr 14, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Great job outlining the differences (and with the IASIF references). I think, among BE posters at least, there are more ASilva nuthuggers than GSP nuthuggers, but it’s hard to say and there really is a divide. I’d say that the hoi polloi in the Sherdog forums generally like GSP better.
I myself am a GSP nuthugger primarily I think because the first fights I saw of GSP just left me with the impression that this guy could do whatever he wanted, whenver he wanted, to whomever he wanted. The first fight I saw of Silva I think was his fight with Lutter. I was stunned that people actually thought he was any good. My initial impression had nearly fully dissipated after the Griffin fight but now has come back with a vengeance after this latest stinker.
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