Judge Douglas Crosby Explains Why He Thought Frankie Edgar Beat BJ Penn 50-45
Well, sort off... A lot of people felt that the scoring for the bout were unfair, and majority of the criticism was directed towards Judge Douglas Crosby's scorecards which, for some reason, had BJ Penn losing each and every round of the fight. Crosby decided to troll talk about the scoring in a UG thread he named "The JUDGING GENIUS returns from the Middle East".
Here's a compiled version of the dozens of comments he slowly posted on the UG:
So....Just returned from Abu Dhabi, and I haven't been in my duplex more than 20 minutes, when the Doorman calls me on the intercom in a state of panic.... Seems there are hundreds of moaning, howling ghouls in "RVCA" and "Prodigy/Hilo Boy" T-shirts surrounding the building like extras from "Zombieland"... And they're chanting "50/45!" over and over, and trying to push their way into the lobby..... Thank God the Father and Sonny Jesus none of them have the elevator key to my penthouse.....So I think I'm safe for awhile... Which gives me a little time to talk to you, my dear friends.
So I'm wondering.....Should I tell you how I scored Penn/Edgar, and why, right now, up front? But that seems kinda like the Pope or the King back in the day, just writing down what he wants to say, and having one of his burly churls nail it to the door of the church for everyone to read...It seems a bit...distant, a bit 'above it all', don'tcha think? Because God knows I have plenty to say and no shortage of burly churls; no dearth of hulking familiars to do my bidding have I....
Perhaps just announcing my presence is enough for now. Perhaps simply allowing some of you, my faithful friends and fellow MMA devotees, to say what YOU want to say is more....Democratic; more... Enlightened... A behaviour more consistent with a Progressive such as myself
After all, isn't that my job? Isn't it incumbent upon me, as a Judge, to make myself available for your criticism? If I take the plane ride, and get to the venue, and score the fights, I have a kind of....Contract with the fans; a contract that specifically allows you to criticize me. And I will be glad to defend the terms of that agreement, even if it means I have to take the weight sometimes... I knew this was coming as I scored the fight. I knew the inescapable inevitability of criticism was waiting back here. I saw the ride; and I bought a ticket
...
So allow me to cast up my accounts with you as equitably as possible, won't you? Interestingly, I've been slightly taken aback by the response my score for the Penn/Edgar fight has engendered...but not in the way (some of) you guys have responded....I kind of expected that. What's been surprising is how many people, at the event, in the hotel, at the airport, fighters, production staff, etc., have told me how glad they were that I scored the FIGHT, and not the FIGHTERS.
Are you guys with me on that, even just a little? Can you understand what I mean by that? May I also mention that I forgive you? For your anger, your insults, and your crassness? NOT all of you....You know who you are. Yes; YOU: Over there, with the purple Nikes on, waiting for the spaceship in the tail of comet to come take you to a world where everyone agrees with you....and YOU over there...the one who thinks his heroes never lose.... So yes, I forgive you. I started this thread knowing that a percentage of you would behave the way you have. I knew you would when I scored the fight as well. I forgave you then. And even as I forgave you, I prepared myself to defend your right to criticize me, and make myself available for that criticism. Isn't that something I kind of...started out by saying?
...
All of that being said..... I've mentioned numerous times on other threads that the scoring criteria exist for a reason, just like the 10-point "must" system exists for a reason; and that the scoring criteria are guidelines within which Judges arrive at a decision on a round-by-round basis. It is a Judge's obligation to interpret the fight and use the criteria as guidelines. But a fight is an observed event that does require interpretation, observation, wisdom. And, in my considered opinion, Edgar dictated the tone of the fight, successfully implemented and executed a strategy, landed better strikes, and basically outworked Penn.
And that is an interpretation by a ringside observer with an understanding and appreciation of MMA, who has Judged numerous (hundreds) of fights. I re-watched the fight in my hotel in Abu Dhabi and saw nothing that would influence me to score it any differently. I support and encourage your right to criticize my scoring. And I forgive you for your attacks of both a professional, and, regrettably, personal nature.
Well there you have it. It took him more than 12 pages of posting bizarre rants, slowly milking - and annoying - people before finally getting to the point where he gives out a vague explanation for scoring it the way that he did. I may not agree with it still, but according to him, Edgar landed the better strikes and outworked Penn for each and every round. It is also interesting to point out that the "cageside point-of-view" excuse got thrown out the window as Crosby firmly stands by his decision even after watching a replay of the bout.
HT: The UG
Update by Brent Brookhouse: From my piece on SB Nation about Crosby's rather lame defense of his scoring:
Somewhat predictably Crosby does fall back on the ambiguous and undefinable idea of "ring generalship" or "Octagon control" as a defense. He references "dictating tone" and "executing strategy" and "outworking Penn" when you will not find ideas such as strategy execution or workrate in the scoring guidelines. The idea that Edgar landed better shots is also completely absurd in the context of the early portion of the bout. Doug even goes as far as to wrap his explanation up with a good ol' fashioned argument from authority by using the fact that he has scored many fights to imply that he has scored this (or any) fight correctly.
There is much concern for me over the idea that Crosby feels it is the judges responsibility to interpret strategy execution. For example, while Edgar was clearly working on the idea that he wanted to get in and out with speed and try to pick a few points up with quick punches, Penn was using a counter-striking style that was using the moments when Edgar came in to counter with much more powerful shots of his own. Looking at the information we have available from the fight it is very clear that Penn was much more effective in his implementation of this strategy for at least the first two rounds.
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So what he’s saying is that if I hop around like a bunny and slap a few times at someone who then punches me square in the head every time… I’ll win a 5 round fight with straight 10-9’s?
Forgot to mention all the times that the bunny rabbit attempted to take down the opponent only to get thrown away all but twice in which the opponent immediately imposed his will and got to his feet…
All the snarky prose in the world doesn’t defend your BS judging Crosby.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:12 AM EDT reply actions
The problem is that Crosby apparently didn’t see much of the landing of strikes. And that’s going to be tough for anyone at cageside. Obviously, he’s putting a lot of emphasis on Edgar’s movement… which is bullshit. Lands outweigh all of that, and Crosby is apparently can’t keep up with the pace of the fight.
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by Leland Roling on Apr 12, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’re a judge you need to make yourself able to see the action happening; if he didn’t see Penn mashing the side of Edgar’s skull in with the hook every time Edgar tried to bounce out after Penn slipped the majority of the punches then he’s an idiot and worse than Cecil “Who’s fighting?” Peoples.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Apparently it didn’t get mashed in badly enough since he never got knocked down (to my now fuzzying recollection)
Speech for effect, Penn was hitting Edgar essentially every time Edgar tried bouncing out; and he was doing so with a much more powerful shot than Edgar threw the entire fight.
Sherk never really “got knocked down” until he bounced against the cage, but I’d still say Penn mashed his face in, getting knocked down and getting your face punched don’t always go hand in hand.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I was surprised with how roughed up Penn's face looked.
I guy that never shows damage had damage around both eyes.
His eyes were definitely puffy and bruised over, that’s from taking repeated tiny shots in the same area; I’m not saying Penn put on the best performance ever, but I think he still won the fight 3 rounds to 2.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Copied from below...
I scored the fight 48 – 47 Penn, but I also knew there were a number of rounds that were close enough for it to go either way. I also thought anyhwere from 49 – 46 Edgar to 49 – 46 Penn wouldn’t blow me away.
I keep a mental note of what I think the score should be and I keep a second mental note on close rounds that could go either way depending on the judge.
My second mental note gave Penn Rd 2, Edgar Rd 4 and the other 3 were swing rounds, Hence from 49 – 46 Penn to 49 – 46 Edgar
Honestly, I can count on one hand the number of times Penn’s counter hooks landed cleanly. I still think 48-47 either way was acceptable scoring.
by woomikee on Apr 12, 2010 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Watch the walkout again...
BJ had big dark bags under his eyes like he hadn’t been sleeping properly or something. it’s that spot that was cut open durring the fight too.
by Roll for Life on Apr 12, 2010 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah that and Frankie Edgar was tagging Penn throughout the 1st and 2nd rounds.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Apr 12, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
There is no other legitiamte way to explain the damage...
I was thinking to myself… Even if Frankie loses, he stood in there and actually damaged Penn’s face. That was impressive.
Penn actually damaged his own face, cutting it, marking it up, and making it swell. That was right after he popped his own rib. Plus, he was tired because his hyperbaric chamber malfunctioned.
by Hardcharger on Apr 12, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
oh look
the official GSP apologist has something disparaging to say about BJ Penn. Look everyone, come see!
by jawz10 on Apr 12, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
Nice!
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 12, 2010 4:18 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh I agree with you on that, just pointing out what I saw. Frankie fought a good fight. His movement meant he could hit Penn at will and the judges felt that outweighed BJ’s counters, especially for the first couple of rounds then Frankie took more control.
by Roll for Life on Apr 13, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Edgar didn't get "thrown away" on the TDs
He was going for TDs to keep Penn off balance and not overcommitting if he felt like he didn’t have them (a la Florian and Sanchez).
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 12, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree.
Most of his attempts were half hearted. He just wanted to keep Penn thinking about takedowns. I think he was largely using quick takedown attempts to control Penn as opposed to failing at whole hearted attempts and being controlled by Penn.
Edgar fullfilled more of the Judging Criteria to him
Though i don’t completely agree with him he is correct under his twisted logic on Edgar meeting more of the judging criteria.
Edgar had more Agression, more Control, and it was a push on strikes.
Edgar pushing the pace and controlling where the fight went is huge in fighting. Some of you may not be used to other combat sports but he wasn’t just bobbing around he was making a moving target and those feigns are important.
Roman from South Jersey, here for two things chewing bubble gum and kicking ass and I'm all out of bubble gum!
I love how people say that Edgar controlled the fight, when BJ fought exactly as he normally does as well.
Penn is a flat-flooted boxer who cuts of angles, and doesn’t rush anything in the cage. That’s exactly what he did against Frankie, but because Edgar wanted to dance around for the entire fight, somehow that means BJ played into Frankie’s game.
BJ did what BJ always does, it’s just that Edgar is faster and better defensively than the likes of Sherk, Florian or Sanchez, so it made for a more competitive fight. BJ in no way fought Edgar’s fight. Both guys fought their own fight, and I’m sick of hearing how Frankie dictated the pace the entire time.
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Edgar was also well served by not pretending that he was going to do anything to finish Penn. Too often guys come in to fight penn with the idea that they can hurt him and it’s very unlikely. Edgar was fighting to outpoint Penn and that was by far the smartest thing he could do. Do I agree with the decision? No, but I 100% respect that Edgar was smart in his execution.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 12, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, there was a discussion a couple months ago on another forum I’m a member of, and it centered around who had the better shot at dethroning the champ, Edgar or Hardy?
The consensus was relatively split, but I made the point that Edgar (and every LW, for that matter) can only beat Penn via decision, even if he had a better chance of winning than Hardy. Frankie obviously realized that, and kudos to him for doing so.
Check out the rest of my stuff at FightLockdown.com
Not sure why this is a reply to me, but I definitely think that what you said is his rationale behind giving Edgar all 5 rounds. He’s judging striking as even based on the fact that there are no knockdowns. According to the criteria, that means that the fight should be scored on effective grappling (Edgar got 2 takedowns), aggression (Edgar pushed forward, Penn stood stationary) and octagon control (Edgar controlled where the fight took place, dictated pace, and got off first in pretty much every exchange).
Do I agree with his scoring? No, but I do understand the logic behind it.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 12, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Effective grappling would imply he was effective...
He wasn’t. He got one actual takedown that wasn’t effective, one that was, and 11 stuffed attempts.
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The point of the takedowns was to keep Penn off balance more than just to hold him down. In that sense, the takedowns were effective. To be fair, you could probably just call grappling a wash because there was little to none of it, but I would give Edgar a slight edge in that category if I had to.
"Sometimes hype just ain't enough." - Jens Pulver on his win over BJ Penn
by lowellthehammer on Apr 12, 2010 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the issue with scoring. And I have an issue with supporting that type of scoring.
Those 2 takedowns resulted in 5 seconds of ground game in a 25 minute fight.
If Penn even landed 1 more power hook than Edgar, that takedown shouldn’t mean anything. The damage, control…everything relating to the takedown amounted to nothing except a stat line.
judges need to be cleared by a psychiatrist!!!
this guy is way to self absorbed!! almost narcissistic like. this is not the type of personality a judge needs to have. a fighters livelihood should not be left in the hands of someone of this character. this guy sounds like he gets his rocks off by controlling the outcome of another man’s livelihood!! this guy is way too engulfed in the “puppet master” role! seriously, this man has no business deciding one’s fate!
So….Just returned from Abu Dhabi, and I haven’t been in my duplex more than 20 minutes, when the Doorman calls me on the intercom in a state of panic…. Seems there are hundreds of moaning, howling ghouls in “RVCA” and “Prodigy/Hilo Boy” T-shirts surrounding the building like extras from “Zombieland”… And they’re chanting “50/45!” over and over, and trying to push their way into the lobby….. Thank God the Father and Sonny Jesus none of them have the elevator key to my penthouse…..So I think I’m safe for awhile… Which gives me a little time to talk to you, my dear friends.
I got a laugh out of that one
yeah, that was pretty funny,
but after 11 pages of nothing, it kinda got annoying. (in my humble opinion)
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 12, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just imagine GSP’s place after the second Penn. People throwing jars of vaseline at him, throwing globs of grease at him.
i greased the door handle to his house and his car.
Teach that frenchy little frog to cheat!!! LOL j/k
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 12, 2010 11:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
that's a shorter version of his ultra long rant... he also had lots of comments that lasted for several pages of useless teasing (trolling?).
on the first “…” I cut out
So what I’m thinking is…… why deny you guys? You earned the right to say what you think by buying the PPV. Don’t I owe you a little time to say everything you want to say? Isn’t that a better way to continue to build a bridge to the fans? By giving them their say? Isn’t that what I owe you? And we all HAVE my scores….. But what do we….OWE???on the second “…”
As fans, I owe you that. Remember me saying that….Pages ago? That you have the right to criticize me? Wasn’t I the person who brought that up? Wasn’t I the person who gave you the opportunity to be heard? By the person you are angry with? Should I even mention that most of the virulent criticisms aren’t even consistent with each other? Or is that ‘condescending’? Which is to say…..are the things you’ve written in these last 7 pages available for criticism as well? Or does suggesting that constitute a similar heresy to my scoring in Penn/Edgar?
.
The reason last question is because I have to make bit of a decision…..Like I said pages ago; do I just lay out why I scored Penn/Edgar the way i did, and leave it at that? Or do I entertain a….dialogue with you (yes, YOU)? Do I go post-by-post and address your issues, both the rational and the ridiculous, for the sake of a democratic dialogue? Do I pick and choose among the posts for the ones (dissenting or otherwise) I feel are worthy of explanation, refutation, argument? Do I respond to ridicule with ridicule? Viciousness with viciousness? Do I pay each and every one of you with your own currency? Or do I just say what I think as far as that fight, and move on? Reading over what’s been said, in both tone and content, has been enlightening.
He was basically jerking himself on the UG.
I'm a lover not a fighter
by spectaa on Apr 12, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only reason a judge would reply to criticism is if he is A) unsure of his scoring B) accidently switched red corner and blue corner on his card and is trying not to admit it.
Crosby is full of it, he knows he scored this fight like a moron.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Isn't think some sort of breach of ethical conduct.
Mocking the fans andthe reaction is terribly un professional. This guys shoulfd be fired for writing this slop.
by truck on Apr 12, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I agree
I’ve heard he has a good rep, but his scoring in this fight and this odd rant afterward make me question whether he is fit for the scorer’s table.
Yeah. Making a bad call is one thing, but mocking and ranting afterwards is far from professional.
The fight was close and when I watched it I knew it could go either way. Viewpoint could be a legit cause for differentiation.
I scored the fight 48 – 47 Penn, but I also knew there were a number of round that were close enough for it to go anyhwere from 49 – 46 Edgar to 49 – 46 Penn.
Mitch
you heard he had a good rep? Wow really this is the same dick that scored Machida vs Shogun fight guy is a bum who doesn’t deserve to judge anything, even in boxing the runner usually loses look at Dirrell vs Ward.
by Mitch Wilson on Apr 12, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
It has to be a breach of ethical conduct
This sh*t is friggen ridiculous. The guy has the mentality of an adolescent.
He represents the body that assigned him to judge, there has to be protocol about justifying his judging…. I doubt ranting like a scorned teenage girl on an mma fan website qualifies. This guy needs to be suspended.
The first paragraph bothered me. When he was talking about the RVCA shirt wearing and stuff like that the first thing that popped in my head was that he really has something against BJ. I’m not saying BJ won the fight but it seems like this guy was wanting to make some sort of statement.
by xbuckeyex05 on Apr 12, 2010 2:39 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I hope he never post on BE. I hate that shit, you got something to say say it.
I'm a lover not a fighter
The cageside viewing defense shouldn't be dismissed
I’ve seen MMA events as well as boxing live from good and bad seats. Believe me, it is a world of difference watching live as opposed to different angles on TV. I’ve seen fights live and scored it for one fighter only to have my opinion changed after watching on screen.
The setup of the Octagon makes it even harder to fully observe the action.
Its a night and day difference between watching live and on TV, which is why I don’t get too worked up over every close decision that I don’t agree with.
didn't you read it?
he said he also watched the replay on his hotel room, and still thinks 50-45 is the proper score.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 12, 2010 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
And I will be glad to defend the terms of that agreement, even if it means I have to take the weight sometimes… I knew this was coming as I scored the fight
Does this bother anybody else? That the judge is actually thinking about the repercussions of his scoring, while he’s scoring the fight. Albeit in this case, he was not swayed by what he thought the popular opinion would be, but I think its scary for a judge to admit that he even considers the reactions of the fans while scoring a fight.
by PM23 on Apr 12, 2010 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
It’s like he was making a statement with his scoring. Yeah, that’s an issue.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Also agree.
I didn’t see the fight, but according to BE’s play by play, it appears BJ won both rounds one and two. How this douchebag can portray himself as a righteous and fair thespian borders on the fact that he may still live in his parents basement and declare that he lives in the light tower above.
Like said below, how do I get a job to be a ringside judge?

Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Edgar won. Edgar won. Edgar won.
BJ Penn will live to fight another day.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
Nope.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 12, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Exactly. What is the outrage, other than the same group of religious cultish Penn fans who never have the slightest grasp on reality.
Penn didn’t win the fight on ANY judges card. The average of the 3 judges cards had the fight 4 rounds to 1 in favor of Edgar. Even if Crosby was wrong in giving all 5 rounds to Penn, it made no difference in the outcome, which was an Edgar win, and an enormous hit to the BJ Penn legacy.
by Hardcharger on Apr 12, 2010 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If he got even 1 round blatantly wrong...
He could do it again. In a 3 round fight. Changing the winner of said fight.
I think people are getting pretty tired of inconsistent judging.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
Perhaps he could. Maybe he won’t.
The bottom line is that Crosby’s judging didn’t change the winner of this fight one bit.
BJ’s best showing by the judges had him winning 2 rounds.
by Hardcharger on Apr 12, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I get that BJ lost and I totally don’t even care about BJ winning; that’s another thing that pissed me off about his ridiculous rant. Acting like the only reason people were mad was because they were BJ-Fanboys. I just thought his scorecard was wrong. And don’t want him to repeat it again when it actually matters in determining a winner.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
That's the MMA community at large's problem with this decision...
As has been said there would have been very little outcry about this fight if it had been 48-47 across the board to Edgar, or a split decision for Edgar, or a 48-47 for Penn or 49-48 for Penn. A 50-45 for any fighter is a absolutely terrible decision no matter who got the 50.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
So Penn fans just wanted to see this a closer loss for Penn?
Where is the outrage for the judge who scored it 4 rounds to 1 for Edgar?
by Hardcharger on Apr 12, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
It was on the front page.
It was specifically mentioned a few times as being almost as bad, as the first two rounds were pretty irrefrutably BJ Penn’s. It’s the rest of them that were either extremely closs, or Edgar. However, it’s also the difference between making one terrible decision, and two terrible decisions back to back. One is a lapse in judgement, the other is a pattern of terrible judgement.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions
do we
have a pattern to compare it too? If not, that is a mute point.
Yeah.
Good judging. Find me another person on planet earth that judged that fight as 50-45 for Edgar. The pattern is intelligent, or even sane people, didn’t judge it as 50-45. He does not fit the pattern of capable judgement, he fits something else.
He’s either jockeying for Cecil’s King of the Terrible Judges crown, or he literally has no idea how to do his job.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
find me another fight
that this judge scored that was so horribly wrong, then you have a pattern, otherwise I stand by my words
I don't need to...
Because it’s an endless cycle with you. I can find you a round he scored terribly, and then immediately he scored another round terribly. That’s a pattern in of itself. If you want a larger pattern, please feel free to go do the research. However, two back to back rounds that were absolutely awful calls are more than enough to signal to me that he needs more training, or a new line of work. If you want a larger quiltwork to make judgement on this guys ability, then that’s you’re right. I want him taken aside and taught that making the other guy fight your fight isn’t enough to give someone a round, specially when the other guy is beating you at your fight.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
endless cycle
I would love to know how you came up to that conclusion. I could say the same about you. Just because the man scored two rounds that you don’t agree with, that is all of a sudden a pattern. Your idea of pattern of bad decisions is rather minuscule. Like I said, until you can find a pattern of fights, then you don’t have a pattern, but you’ll believe what you want and there is no reasoning with that.
wait?
What mute point are you talking about Pacifically? Lol
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 12, 2010 11:10 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Why do you assume that it is Penn fans who are solely responsible for this outcry?
Why can’t it be logical MMA fans who are sick of terrible judging the sport?
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by BradT on Apr 12, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly . . . what is the outrage?
- hey if any one considers FightMetric to be a credible authority, they gave a nod to BJ Penn
- Compustrike gave the fight to Edgar 90 – 81 in strikes. They awarded him 1 takedown.
- All 3 judges gave it to Edgar.
- Esteemed MMA fan, Vee is Animated, gave the fight to Edgar, no I didn’t score the fight and I am not qualified to judge a professional mma or boxing match. Edgar dictated the pace and out pointed BJ Penn. Dare I say, Frankie Edgar was slightly faster than BJ Penn. There was no spring in Penn’s legs, I knew that was going to be problematic against the machine-workman-like performance that Edgar demonstrated in rounds 1 and 2.
- Dana White gave it to Frankie Edgar.
Even if Crosby was wrong in giving all 5 rounds to Penn, it made no difference in the outcome, which was an Edgar win
- Hardcharger
At least no one is screaming ROBBERY for another “close” championship fight. Ahhh, I can not wait until May 8th . . . I love the entire UFC 113 card, including the prelims.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Apr 12, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
You make great points, supplemented with quality research.
I just see this ranting on Crosby as a distraction to take away from Edgar’s win. This wasn’t a fight that was a SD or that was close on all 3 judges scorecards. It was a decisive Edgar win by that panel. Not that judging can’t be improved, but I don’t see this fight as a quest to improve judging, more like bitter fans trying to discredit another Penn loss.
by Hardcharger on Apr 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, fans just need to give Edgar his props. He had a great game plan and won.
Just like GSP had a great game plan and made BJ Penn quit in his corner.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Apr 12, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
People aren’t trying to discredit Penn’s loss (most). The arfument is not who won the fight its how the hell does this judge see every round for Edgar when that clearly wasn’t the case ( Penn clearly won rd. 2 ). What if a basketball referee called a foul on a Kobe when he was on the bench. Even if the Lakers still won everyone would want to know what the hell he was thinking. In this perticular fight it didn’t matter but what happens when (if) it does, I think its fair to ask.
by xbuckeyex05 on Apr 12, 2010 3:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This is much worse scoring than Machida/Shogun in my opinion. Not because Edgar won (a case can be made for a 3-2 round advantage for Frankie) but because of the way the scoring was done (5-0 is ABSURD).
On the compustrike thing…They’re not as good as Fight Metric for the simple fact that they do it once, during the fight. FightMetric is a much more meticulous system of scoring.
Still, good on Edgar for getting the win, but bad on Crosby for sucking so bad.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 12, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I would have been very forgiving to Crosby if he would have said “we’re judging it live from cageside. From my vantage point I could see Edgar connecting and out-striking Penn. What I see is all I can go by, and that’s all I can say”.
The issue of CompuStrike/FightMetric was already tackled in your logic. As for your opinion, I’m not one to dissuade you from holding that opinion.
That leaves the fact that Dana White scored it for Edgar. How exactly is that relevant? Dana isn’t going to go out and press conferences and say that his new champion doesn’t deserve to be champion. How would that benefit him or his organization? Of course Dana is going to agree that Edgar won after the fact. However, his actual words were the same as many people on here, something to the effect of “It was a close fight. I didn’t know which way it was going to go. It wasn’t 50-45, it was a close fight.” (Obviously paraphrased, as I have no interest in rewatching the post-fight presser.)
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Not only did Dana White feel Shogun defeated Machida in a very close fight . . . he gave Shogun an unreported serious bonus for his performance. Dana didn’t agree with the 50 – 45, yeah I thought it was baloney from my vantage point but one judge thought Edgar won all the rounds . . . that’s very plausible in a fight where Edgar dictated the pace and landed significant shots.
-notheface has a really great point btw
My main point is Edgar won. This is not nearly as controversial as Machida vs. Shogun.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Apr 12, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
it is controversial
because no one in his right mind would score each and every round for Edgar.
you can make your case that Edgar won the fight, but you CANNOT have any valid reasons to justify the 50-45, and that’s where all the criticism is coming from. Shogun/Machida on the other hand, you can justify the judges scoring it 3-2 lyoto.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 12, 2010 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Some of these bullets... well, I'll bullet it out:
• Fightmetric does impeccable work, and it sucks that they’re getting raked over the coals for sticking to their guns because some fans would rather plug their ears and yell “no takebacks” than discuss the actual mechanics of what happened.
• If we insist on using it as a decisioning tool, by the 10-point-must system, Compustrike numbers are either a draw or potentially a Penn decision
Depending on whether the differential in power shots in the 3rd round makes it a 10-10 or a slight Penn advantage (if you’re going to argue that leg kicks outweigh power shots, even on Compustrike’s shakier live numbers, THEN you can give it to Edgar). In aggregate, the CS totals favor Frankie, but that all happens in rnds 4 and 5 of their report.
• Dana White? Dana White would have to be clinically insane in his position to torpedo the one potentially positive story coming out of this event even if he did believe it was a bad decision. And this is great for the UFC and the LW division, it really opens up the divisional picture. I’m not happy with the outcome but I’m excited for the fights it creates, and I don’t even make money selling fights like DW.
I can’t argue with the Hardcharger quote, though. Especially knowing what a huge BJ Penn fan he is, I can’t even fathom the depths of inner struggle he probably went through before deciding to side against his favorite fighter in this matter.
the truth has been spoken
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 12, 2010 4:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
This dude is trippin when he says Edgar landed tha better strikes when clearly you could see Penn landed tha harder more effective punches. Shit almost half of Edgars hits landed were leg and body kicks, while Penns hits were mostly to tha head. Point is there is no way either of them beat each other 50-45 or 49-46, it only could’ve been 3 rounds to 2 either way cause that fight was way closer than tha scorecards are making it out to be.
So?
What exactly is wrong with leg and body kicks as a means of scoring points? I believe there was a certain Shogun/Machida fight in which people were outraged that Shogun’s leg and body work was not weighed more heavily by the judges.
Also, the number of leg strikes Edgar landed was a vast minority of his overall strikes. Edgar landed 8 leg strikes (FightMetric), and 16 body strikes (not all of which would have been kicks). Even if you assume 12 of those 16 were kicks (which they weren’t), that means he landed 20 kicks in the fight, less than a third of his total strikes. I’m not sure what I’m getting at with this, since my first paragraph is the more pressing issue in your post.
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you can do a terrible job at your job and still have a penthouse suite?
what a country!
everything dana white says is a complete lie
by slantedwindows on Apr 12, 2010 10:27 AM EDT reply actions
It’s reminds me of when our American C.E.O.’s were running their businesses to the ground, and still taking private jets to their meetings.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
I wonder how the logics of those against this decision...
fits with the complaints about the decision in favor of Machida?
Perhaps it illustrates a problem with the perceived value of leg kicks and any shots not to the head.
I think it has more to do with the effectiveness of the strikes...
No matter the location. In the Machida fight, Machida could barely walk by the end of the fight, and only a select few of the punches Machida threw to the head actually caused good impact. The opposite is true in this fight, Penn’s shots were heavy and impactful to Edgar’s head, whereas the leg/body blows from Edgar weren’t doing a whole lot.
Effectiveness of striking is more important than location, it just so happens that it’s usually more effective to punch someone in the head than the body or leg.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I think this fight is very similar to the Machida fight in many ways.
First round was fairly close… I’ve seen it scored it both ways. Mae thing happened in the Machida / Rua fight.
Second round was a little more clearly in favour of the Champion in both fights.
Third round was very close again. I’ve seen this round scored both ways in this fight and Machida / Rua
Rouund 4 and 5 the champ was sclowing down and a lot of people feel these rounds went to the challenger.
I think one of the major factors in both fights may be takedown defense. Both champions were largely successful in stopping takedown attempts.
Edgar did score a couple, but I don’t think his intention was ever to take the fight to the ground and keep it there. I think he was just trying to keep Penn off balance. For this reason I conside the failed attempt to be a little less of a negative.
Both fights were close and both fights were similar. People are upset with both calls. I can see both fights going either way.
I have a question
I understand there are a lot of people here who are angry Penn lost, 50-45, I personally haven’t seen the fight yet, so I can’t comment on the actual fight. But here’s the thing I think people seem to forget. We as a PPV buyer, get to watch the fight from an advantageous angle. People have spent thousands of hours perfecting how we watch a fight. You could almost go as far as to say, we get a better view of the fight then the judges. They, the judges get to sit at ring side, unless they jump up and run around the ring like chickens with their heads cut off, to get the angles, and to see what we see. They have to sit in one spot, watch through a cage, looking up at the action, and do not always have the best view of the fight. Having not seen the fight yet, I’m willing to cut this guy a little slack. It’s hard for us as people with an advantageous angle of the fight to sit here and criticize people who do this as a profession. You might not agree with him, or any fight that goes to the judges, but we aren’t the ones at ring side.
Except this joker just said...
He wouldn’t have changed his score card in the slightest even seeing the same fight everyone else did on PPV. That removes viewpoint out of this particular judge’s reasoning for failure.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
thats the way he saw it, his reasoning is his own, how can we sit here and say he should have seen it a different way. It’s not our job. His job is to judge, just because we don’t agree with it doesn’t make it wrong. Thats how he saw the fight. If you want to get angry at someone, get angry at BJ for letting it get that far. This isn’t a new problem, I’m sure this exact conversation happens every event. The fighters are the ones that have to prevent the judges voices from being heard. So to say it is a failure on his part is grasping at best.
By your reasoning...
You would have been okay if Dan Hardy had been given the nod over GSP 50-45 because, damn it that’s the judges viewpoint and it’s sacred?
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
by my reasoning?
how did you come up with that. For the record, any judge that scores a fight like the GSP/Hardy fight needs glasses. but you are missing the bigger point here. Every event that has a fight going to the judges is up to this type of debate. We are not judges, we have a biased view of the fight. Now if a judge did score the GSP fight that way, what am I or you for that matter, going to do about it, nothing. You’re gonna come on here and complain to a bunch of people who have nothing to do with whats going on. Like I said, blame the fighters for letting it get to the judges. This is not the first, nor will it be the last time this happens.
And I quote...
thats the way he saw it, his reasoning is his own, how can we sit here and say he should have seen it a different way. It’s not our job. His job is to judge, just because we don’t agree with it doesn’t make it wrong.
How dare we disagree with the judges, no matter if a group of trained chimps could have thrown their waste at a wall and came up with a better score card than 50-45.
Your defeatest attitude of oh well, judging is always going to be terrible so we should just suck it up and suffer is one of the reasons boxing is dead. I’d prefer we not see a repeat.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
just because we don’t agree with it doesn’t make it wrong.
thanks for using my own words to back up my point.
If the point you were trying to make is...
It’s okay for judges to be incompetant and/or corrupt then yes, you made that point for yourself quite well. I apologize for not subscribing to your newsletter.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Corrupt???
are talking out of the side of your mouth, or do you have some unknown proof of that to. Just like your two round pattern
I don’t think it’s very fair to blame a fighter for hypothetically losing, who continuously worked towards a finish, but never succeeded for 25 minutes straight yet completely dominated his opponent. ,If the judge makes a bad call. I’d blame the judge. Just like officials and referees have screwed up games in the NFL and NBA. I’m not sure what your motives are for defending pure stupidity.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
WOW
there is absolutely no way to have a reasonable conversation about this is there. How many times does this happen? Every other if not every event. I’m not defending stupidity, merely pointing out the problem with letting the fight go to the judges. You’re not happy with the call, fine, but it’s not the judges fault BJ lost. There are two other judges that scored this fight for Edgar too, where is the outrage there?
No outrage for the other 2 judges because I personally am not the best judge in the world but I know BJ won at least one. I also am pretty confident he lost the fight.
I think Crosby was acting stupid after what in my opinion is a stupid decision, and you’re defending him, that’s all I meant by that.
I rarely get upset about scorecards, especially not every event. It’s usually not as easy as this situation to blatantly see that his scorecard was not correct. In my opinion of course. But seriously, its pretty much everyone’s opinions.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
You're acting like a judge's decision doesn't happen in a vaccum.
The judges don’t confer and chat about their scores and decide, oh we can totally come up with nonsensical scorecards as long as the decision is right in the end.
You have to take judges scorecards as singular entities, not by the entire decision. To put it in a different way, you rate individual judges, not judging teams.
Very few people disagree that this was a close fight, and while a small majority of people think Penn should have won, it was close enough that people can see the other side of the coin on both sides so that’s a non issue. However, you can’t just go…“LOL EDGAR/PENN WON SO THE RIGHT DECISION WAS MADE IN THE END SO WHAT DOES IT MATTER LOLKTHXBAI” Because that kind of idiotic 50-45 card could just have easily been the deciding card in a split decision.
You address judging irregularties as they happen, and you address them proactively with training. The final decision is almost irrelevant.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Apr 12, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, you fail to see the point that I am making, I’m not typing away defending this particular decision. Here’s what we know is fact, He was at ringside, neither of us were. He saw it differently then most, but he’s a judge, neither you or I are. I don’t care how he judged it, he did, everyone on here seems to be all bent out of shape, when this isn’t the first time this has happened. As far as I’m concerned, I’m done with this, simply based on the fact that we can’t seem to have a constructive conversation on this matter.
I don’t blame judges ever for a bad decision, I always blame the fighter. hated machida for his robbery and hate Edgar now for this. yep totally aware of how irrational that is.
by nogroundgame on Apr 12, 2010 10:40 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
what a dick
if he’d have cut the bullshit and eloquent sweet little nothings (10+ pages of those) and cut right to the point w/o being belittling, he would’ve had a chance of redemption.
hai 2 u cecil #2!!1
Go big red!
This was honestly the biggest ego-trip I've ever seen
So much nonsense talking about himself for a couple lines of vague explanation that doesn’t even address the criticisms made. This guy seems to really be bordering on narcissism and I’m not interested in seeing him ever judge again.
Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?
by frosnt1 on Apr 12, 2010 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
lol what the actual fuck? i can’t believe he was openly trolling, he should be fined by the commission for unprofessional-ism.
by Roujam on Apr 12, 2010 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
So i guess I’m the only guy who likes the guy more for this? I think what he’s doing is pretty funny here….
If anything
this should make people respect him a little more, maybe not agree with him. How many other judges have talked about their position?
he trolled the fuck out of us how do you have respect for that. He should have came on and said his peice not tell us about his penthouse and all that other “cute” crap.
PLEASE read the update I posted...
I really have a lot of problems with Crosby’s defense here (the actual part where he tries to explain his decision…not just the rambling act he does for the rest of it)
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 12, 2010 12:00 PM EDT reply actions
I'm baffled
Is it normal for a judge to post on message boards? I honestly thought this was a gag at first.
by KING FEDOR on Apr 12, 2010 12:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I know it’s the unpopular opinion but I agree. BJ was getting slipped when he tried to counter and not landing effectively, and Edgar was chasing him around and beating him to the punch over and over.
BJ’s corner is telling him at the halfway point of the fight “stop striking, you have to take him down!”…is this because THEY thought he was winning? At the end of the fight, BJ hung his head, blood coming out from both of his eyes, looking completely defeated….did HE think he won the fight?
Shit, BJ Penn is the biggest “I got screwed” whiner in the world, and him/his camp aren’t even talking trash about the decision. He’d normally have his mom filing a lawsuit against UFC by now.
This really feels like a lot of MMA Pundits are pissed off that they got egg on their face saying “Edgar has no way to win this fight because BJ is better at everything than him”. I honestly expected BJ to win the fight, but watched impressed that Edgar beat him to the punch all night and landed more damage.
But I’m sure I’ll be cast as some Frank Edgar nuthugger or something because I don’t agree with the current internet MMA meme.
by Jason H. on Apr 12, 2010 2:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’ll refrain from judging who won the fight by the face of the fighters afterward and stick with who punched the other guy more/harder. BJ did? Word?
What’s been surprising is how many people, at the event, in the hotel, at the airport, fighters, production staff, etc., have told me how glad they were that I scored the FIGHT, and not the FIGHTERS.
What the fuck does this even mean?
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
he hates bj
Bj nailed his gf. He’s still kinda salty about it. Lol
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Apr 12, 2010 4:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Octagon control is one of the scoring criteria
And there’s no indication of how to weight those criteria.
So why are we criticizing a judge for scoring a fight based on one of the explicitly permitted scoring criteria, when we can’t honestly disagree with his view of that criterion.
Does anyone here think Frankie didn’t control the pace of the fight? Really, that’s all the space Crosby left you. As soon as you accept that he correctly identified Edgar as the winner of the Octagon Control criterion, there’s no longer any real basis with which to disagree with him that desn’t rely entirely on your personal preferences.
I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.
This is first-class trolling
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I love listening to this jerk off...
it just supports my point of view: who gives a shit what these knuckle heads think. Penn is still the best LW in the world, and a total asshole-douche-troll, like Douglas Crosby, can’t change that.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
Crosby is a scatter-brained, attention-seeking troll.
He’s full of shit and knows it.
I specializes in grammar fail.
What a douche.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.

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