Will Strikeforce Crown the Number One Lightweight in the World on CBS?
by Michael Rome on Apr 11, 2010 8:00 PM EDT
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At UFC 112, the unthinkable happened: BJ Penn lost to Frankie Edgar. After a relatively uneventful five rounds, the judges came back with a unanimous verdict in Edgar's favor. Say what you want about the decision, but BJ let a close fight go to the judges. He looked like a broken and beaten man after the fight.
Does Frankie Edgar jump to number one for beating BJ Penn? I'm sure some people will say yes. Fight Matrix already has Edgar at number one. I'm not a big rankings guy, but I think there is a strong case for ranking Shinya Aoki number one. Edgar's win was not exactly dominant, and a lot of people think he should have lost the fight on the cards. Aoki and Penn have been neck and neck for the top lightweight spot for a long time now, and Penn's loss should push Aoki to the front of the line.
If you accept that Aoki is the number one lightweight in the world now, that makes his title fight with Gilbert Melendez this weekend at Strikeforce all the more consequential. It may be too late to change the way the fight is being hyped, but I think CBS should take advantage and start running promos about featuring Shinya Aoki, the number one lightweight in the world. Sure, people will have issues with it, but now it's debatable and they can run something like that in good faith.
Gilbert Melendez has only 2 career losses, and he has a chance on CBS to get the biggest win of his career. He's fought a lot of good fighters, but Aoki is the best fighter he's ever competed against, and certainly the highest ranked. After losing his ranking and a lot of status with the MMA community following his losses to Ishida and Thomson, Melendez has a chance to vault himself straight to the top of the lightweight division with a win over Shinya Aoki.
The Strikeforce card may not have Fedor, but there's no denying that it's a strong card. The three main events are all very interesting fights, and the lightweight title match just became that much more meaningful as a result of Penn's defeat.
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I would have to say that whoever wins this is number 1, especially if it’s Aoki
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
Sorry dude but youre wrong
Aoki isnt even top 5 LW in UFC. Ken Flo, BJ, Frankie, Sherk and Gray would all beat him. Aoki is to one dimensional to be #1. Aoki is the LW version of Maia.
If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, Do you think Greece would help?
That’s cool man. I am just choosing to base my opinion on their records and recent performances instead of hypothetical situations.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
dude!!!! dont confuse the situation with facts
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Ever seen Maia pull guard on a guy who’s standing?
by Polyhedron on Apr 11, 2010 8:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
YES
Ed Herman
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
served
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
by midwestbred on Apr 11, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well you either have to score it for Penn, or you don’t, but it seems an argument is being made against both guys here for the same fight.
That said, I’m sure Aoki will rise to No.1 in some rankings. I’d still give it to Penn.
This SF card is awesome though. And I agree they should promote Aoki as the No.1
What about Florian? Where would he stand?
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 11, 2010 8:05 PM EDT reply actions
I say 4th
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Above Aoki’s bloodied carcass in victory if they were to ever fight.
by ufc4 on Apr 11, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Eactly. Kenny would absolutely maul both of these guys.
Gil Melendez couldn’t beat BJ. He’s nowhere near the #1 spot.
How far different are Gil and Edgar?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
pretty different
seeing as how he feels Melendez couldn’t beat BJ and Edgar just did
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
I’m sayin stylistically they’re not that different so it doesn’t make sense to say Gil can’t beat BJ when Edgar just did…
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
he obviously disagrees with you
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
are you posting for him? I’ll wait for him to answer, thanks for your time though.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
frankie edgar is a way different fighter
melendez doesnt have the speed to do anything to bj
Detroit Red Wings = next Stanley Cup Champs. Howard for Vezna
Wether I agree with the decision or not (I don't),
beating penn should make Edgar number 1, regardless of how he won the fight.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 8:10 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I some what disagree with that. From your view, could you ever rank Aoki as #1 without coming to the UFC? Let’s say Maynard gets first crack at Edgar and wins, does he become #1? It turns into a revolving door of the same fighters within the UFC. I think Aoki has collectively beaten enough high level lw’s to be considered the best, and undisputed #1 if he beats Gil.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
The only problem with that thinking is there are approximately half a dozen fighters in the UFC who would handily defeat Aoki.
Assume much?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
no kidding, and i assume all those guys would then embarrass alverez, hanson, and JZ
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
Reminds me of the claims that Jake Shields would get destroyed by the UFC WWs, even though he’s beaten three UFC WWs, including two in the UFC’s ww top 10 – Daley and Condit. Never mind that he’s also beaten a bunch of good MWs.
If he beats Henderson (which I don’t think he will but still) the internet is going to explode. Think about it, wouldn’t you favor Henderson over GSP at 185?
Thats just not gunna happen. Im a big anti 8-1 underdog guy but if there ever was a fight to make it happen it would be this one.
I have give him a snowball's chance in hell
but if he does do it!? Jake Shields enters the top 5 of my p4p list.
Jake Shields is fucking good man. Anyone who doesn’t think Jake Shields is top ten WW is drinking UFC juice too much. Shields is top 5 def he is very similar to Jon Fitch I don’t get how people don’t see it.
I think thats where the UFC factors in. Jon Fitch to me is the clear cut #2. He fights tough guys after tough guy.
I think Shields is exactly like Fitch. Except Shields is not in the UFC.
I have hmm let me think..
1) GSP
2) Fitch
3) Alves
4) Kos
5) Shields
With the exception of Mayhem, Shields finishes fights. And I would love to hear how Mike Pierce and Ben Saunders are better than Paul Daley and Nick Thompson. Not to mention the two quality mws he’s beaten in his last two fights.
Mayhem is retarted hard to finish. I don’t knock Shields for that. Sometimes styles make fights and fights end ugly it happens.
Fitch has been so dominant for so long in the best division in the best organization. Cant really knock him.
Fitch will fight any up and comer any top talent and proceed to implement his game plan.
Shields has wins over #9 WW Daley, #12 Condit, #8 MW Okami, and #9 MW Lawler. Pretty hard for anyone to compete with that.
Those are impressive. Exactly why I have him at #5.
GSP would have likely beat the breaks off of him in the UFC and the other four ahead of him would give him big fucking problems as well.
Shields got nothing for Fitch man. He aint subbin him and its gunna get messy. Fitch is huge I think he edges it out man. Fitch style of course lol.
KoS got enough wrestling to nullify Shields and got power. Thiago would likely not be taken down too much.
I have Thiago as a favorite over Fitch right now but cant place him above Fitch until the fight .
I just don’t see how Shields beats these four guys do you?
Truthfully, no. Unless, of course, he beats Hendo, In which case the book on Shields has to be rewritten.
If Aoki beats Melendez and Tatsuya Kawajiri he’ll have victories over 6 currently BE ranked opponents. Throw in a Eddie Alvarez victory over Roger Huerta and people are going to be forced to reassess their view on how good he is and how good he’d do in the UFC.
But he very well could get his assed kicked this Saturday, too.
because he left the UFC?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
No im not one of those guys.
Huerta has never been top ten UFC either. He was a fringe top ten but who did he really beat? He beat Guida thats it.
Florian and Maynard both beat him soundly. I think Huerta hovers from 10-20 though hes a legit fighter tough as nails guy cant wait to see him fight Alvarez or Joe warren is involved in that as well right.
I don’t think you can name any one number 1 without the UFC. Only Fedor manages this because he is undefeated and been the champ of a major organization since what 2000? Fedor is the only exception to the rule.
I disagree with the LW’s. There’s a LOT of awesome lw talent outside the UFC, it’s just people brush em off too easy because they aren’t in the UFC.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Yea I didnt really get to far into that. LW has a case it sure does. But there best guy would get mauled by the top 7 in the ufc
That’s an absolutely ridiculous claim. You’re telling me Aoki, Gil, Alvarez, Kawajiri, JZ, Shaolin, Hellboy would ALL get mauled by the UFC top 7? I’m not saying I would take each of these guys over every UFC top 7 but to claim each of them would get mauled is straight stupid.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Thats a tough tough top 7 to crack man. Who is the one you think is favored to beat them ?
I think Alvarez fairs best against the top 7. How about you?
I must say my knowledge is not great of these guys. I am familair with Aoki hanson Alvarez not so much Melendez.
Well you got my top 7 outside UFC so what’s your UFC top 7?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
I already put my top 7 up you already commented on them in the first place right?
Ill go again
1) Penn
2) Edgar
3) Florian
4) Maynard
5) Sherk
6) Griffen
And I have Aoki 7th. Lol so my statement about top 7 is wrong. Top 6. I think these 6 guys are giving anyone in the world big fuckin problems.
They can all compete with each other they are neck and neck.
Aoki is clear number 1 outside UFC but would have significant matchup problems with these guys.
Ah, I see that was you below, my bad. I believe Aoki, Gil, Alvarez, and Kawajiri would straight compete with anyone those guys (except BJ on his A-game). All three besides Aoki have the same style has the UFC lw’s besides Penn/Florian. I will the recent Shaolin wasn’t great, Hansen is dabbling at fw, and JZ hasn’t fought in 10 months so they would be a stretch at this point in time.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
nah!!! how you win or loose is everything.
frankie won by tricking the judges with being hyper active. He is not better then Bj i dont think he is better then Florian or Aoki . He is good and I am Happy for him. However who really thinks frankie is a better fighter then Bj???
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
exactly right it does not matter who the new #1 is in the LW devision becasue it just won’t feel right becasue we all know who the real #1 should still be.
I assume you mean BJ. What is it with BJ fans feeling that he has some god given right to be ranked at #1 irrespective of what actually happens in the ring? I dont get it. Is it coz he licks blood from his gloves?? Is it coz he is super bendy? Is it coz he outboxed sherks t-rex arms…..what is it??!?!!
Actually GeeDud I am not a BJ fan at all I actually have rooted agsint him for years.I can’t tell you how happy I was when Jens beat him back in the day and loved watching GSP destroy him. On the other hand I don’t even think there is a debate before the Edgaqr fight on who deserved the #1 Ranking in the LW devision based on there resume of wins in the LW devision. And liked I have said on hear now a few times no one more then me would of been happier to see Edgar beat BJ and take that belt and throw a monkey wrech in the LW devision rankings but not like this coming off a Horrible decison. Like I said it just does not sit well with me naming a new #1 in the LW devision when I and most others know BJ won that fight
by Shocbomb on Apr 12, 2010 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
hehe I’ll rec that post for the Geedud slur!! Nice. Surprised I havent got that one before!!
I just fail to see how this was a horrible decision. The vast majority of people that score the fight for BJ score it 49-48 or 48-47 with 3 rounds being close. Given the subjective nature of judging, a decision either way in this fight is fair enough (although the 50-45 scorecard was very odd). If you disagree with the outcome……fine, but no horrible decision or robbery took place imo.
As for monkey wrenches………lets see Gil take out Aoki and be ranked at #1…..that will be one hell of a monkey wrench!!!
No.
Sorry man, but that is not right.
If the #10 basketball or football team beats #1, they don’t just become #1. They move up and with continued success, can attain the #1 spot eventually. Winning one game (or fight) does not make the winner #1.
This was not #2 beating #1.
Basketball teams play 70 (?) games a year, and the #1 rankings are determined by points and then at the end of the season an elimination tournament. Apples and oranges.
In the fight world, how can you become #1, if beating #1 doesn’t do it? Does the #2 guy who did nothing but not lose become #1?
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
In the fight world, how can you become #1, if beating #1 doesn’t do it?
Speaking for myself: have a better overall resume in the relevant time period.
I agree with this.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
by midwestbred on Apr 11, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, it’s as close as you can get. Beating the best one time does not make you the best.
In the end it doesn’t matter, as fighter rankings are unreliable, influenced by outside entities and the fighters don’t face the same competition. People get so wrapped up in rankings, which is exactly what they are for, to elicit emotional response from the fans, to get them vested in teh fighters and the sport.
You can sit here and tell me BJ is now ranked 100 in the LW division and I will tell you he is better than the 99 guys ranked ahead of him.
I think more people would have a problem if Melendez beats Aoki and becomes #1 then if Aoki beats Melendez and becomes #1.
On the USA Today/SB Nation rankings from March 27th Edgar is #7 and Melendez is #8. If Melendez wins #8 will have beaten #2 and #7 will have beaten #1.
I think if Melendez wins you go Edgar, Melendez, Alvarez but if Aoki wins you go Aoki, Edgar, Alvarez.
I Think You Hit on the Head
For the next week before the Aoki/Melendez fight Frankie Edgar is # 1. The results of the Aoki-Gil fight decide the exact positioning. Until then Edgar is Conditionally #1.
PS I just rewatched the Penn/Edgar fight and i definitively believe that Edgar won 48-47 winning rounds 3-5.
No way
Aoki can’t be considered better than Penn unless he actually beats Penn. Aoki and Melendez never fought top UFC competition to begin with.
Here are my rankins for right now. Obviously you know how I feel about the BJ fight.
1) BJ Penn
2 )Frankie Edgar
3) Kenny Florian
4) Gray Maynard
5) Sean Sherk
6) Tyson Griffen
7) Aoki
I don’t consider Aoki up there until after those guys. I see an easy win for any of those guys against Aoki and I mean easy.
Aoki has nothing on the feet. All of these guys have some sort of hands even the wrestleboxers. Most of them are wrestlers or have great or good takedown defense.
Aoki has no hands. He would get outpointed knocked out and embarrased by any of the UFC studs.
BJ Penn #1?!?!?!
You are higher than a giraffe’s ass!
Not to mention the biggest nuthugger I have ever seen.
Hilarious!
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I still feel he is the best. Dont you ??
I dont think he should drop below 2 or 3 at worst.
I am totally a Penn mark. Feel free to berate me lol
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
i say 3.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Lol why am I a nuthugger. Because the judges got it wrong I am crazy ? Right…
Oh yea I have Shogun as #1 LHW to blow ur mind even more Lol.
Well, he didn’t win the fight so it makes sense with your line of thinking that he is number one. I am sure the Colts are the champions of the NFL and the Lee Westwood won the Masters as well.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Out of curiosity, where do you rank Maia at MW?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
- LOL
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
three or four IMHO
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Maia is tough as well. Another Frankie Maynard situation.
Sonnen > Nate > Maia > Sonnen
Just weird dont you love MMA?
Maia should be top ten thats for sure.
Here are my MW rankings
1 ) Anderson Silva
2) Dan Henderson
3) Nate
4) Sonnen
5) Okami
6) Maia
Jesus this is hard to explain. Hendo is a clear cut #2 to me.
Between I think Sonnen beating Okami and Nate justifies him being over Maia who is new. Okami and Nate have proven themseleves time and time again.
Maia still needs to prove a little to me. Top 10 though def
AOKI IS NUMBER 1
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
???
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
not trying to sound like an a-hole, but you realize i dont work for strikeforce and am in abu dhabi right now covering the UFC
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
by ekc on Apr 11, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
was looking forward to Aoki vs Melendez the most out of the fights on this card. This makes it even better! Everyone hates Aoki but I’m rooting for him. Cuz I love the guys everyone hates! Well, except Anderson Silva…everyone loved him before but I’ve hated him from the start. Right here! Everyone F off!
If Aoki wins
He has to be number one doesn’t he? His list of wins over quality wins over ranked opponents without taking a loss at lightweight is the longest. If he loses I see no reason to justify giving the number 1 ranking to Melendez over Edgar. How is a win over #2 Aoki worth more than a win over #1 BJ? Aoki wins and its his, if Gil wins its Edgar’s.
They’re talking about his loss to Hellboy.
But, of course, if Aoki wins he’ll be on a 7-fight win streak at LW and Edgar only 4
Aoki hasn’t beat anyone approaching the level of Penn, though.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Apr 12, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
If Aoki wins i go with
1) Aoki
2) Edgar
3) Penn
4) Florian
5) Maynard
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
but but Maynard beat Edgar so it has to be
1) Aoki
2) Maynard
3) Edgar
4) Penn
5) Florian
Oh wait, I don’t give a shit…nevermind.
Antonio Mckee
“Who wants to see fights finished at 155! Alright everyone with their hands up please evacuate the building.”
"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"
by Fake Emcee on Apr 11, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree with these rankings, but just a random thought, that gives Strikeforce two number 1 ranked fighters out of the five weight classes. Detractors will still call them paper tigers but haters are going to hate. Does BJ losing loosen the stranglehold the UFC had on “the best fighters at every weight.” Does it legitimize Strikeforce at all?
As a preface, let me say that the with way I prefer to do rankings, how you or lose win doesn’t matter, and neither does who anyone thinks would win in any hypothetical matchup. All that matters is who you beat and when.
With that out of the way, I’ll say that I think Edgar and Aoki have just about equal claims on being #1. It’s extremely close between them. I’ve gone with Aoki, for reasons detailed at the link in my sig. But it could go either way.
But, should Melendez win on Saturday, I’d probably elevate Edgar to #1 before Melendez. It would be a matter of each man having recently beat the #1 fighter, each man having lost at some point in the past three years, and Melendez having lost twice (once to a virtually unranked competitor) to Edgar’s once.
But that would be a close one too.
Like I said, it matters who you beat and when. Maynard beat Edgar in 2008. That’s not going to make him #1 two years later.
But its how he beat him that matters to me. If Frankie improved his wrestling like he did his boxing I would agree with you. Nothing indicates that Frankie can do anything to stop Maynard from Clay Guidaing him again.
MMA rankings are too reactive
and attribute too much value to individual fights as being indicative of true talent level.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
by azruavatar on Apr 11, 2010 8:46 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’ve heard this before, and I’m never quite sure what it means.
From my perspective, individual fights constitute the evidence for “true talent level.”
If we insist on waiting to assign value to a fight until later fights are in the books—in order to avoid being too reactive—we’ll never assign value to any fight. We’ll always be waiting.
I'm a baseball fan first and foremost.
I really enjoy watching the UFC but I’m not someone who has been watching it for years and years and years. I’m predisposed to approach rankings or stats in the manner they are handled in baseball because that’s my background.
I’m using that to preface the rest of this comment. When I say that the rankings are too reactive, I mean that in the sense that they change far too quickly based on the most recent fight. MMA lacks the objective measures that baseball has (even in something like FightMetric’s report, every uppercut isn’t equal but that’s how they are treated) so rankings are going to be more subjective. That said, it seems to me like the rankings vary significantly based on what the last fight was rather than the body of recent work.
In baseball, it takes 600 plate appearances to develop a reliable metric to statistically project a player’s offense for the next year. It’s hard for people to remember that 1 at bat or even 20 at bats or 100 at bats don’t necessarily mean all that much. Now in MMA, each fight has more statistical significance because you’ve got less data and because it’s (probably) easier to measure true talent in the course of 3 fights than it is to measure a baseball players offensive ability in 20 at bats.
This is what really gets me:
Does Frankie Edgar jump to number one for beating BJ Penn? I’m sure some people will say yes.
After BJ Penn dismantled Diego Sanchez in an absurdly lopsided fight, should we really think that the Edgar fight is so dramatically representative of Penn’s talent level that Edgar is better than Penn? I’d be shocked to see Penn as the underdog on betting lines if Edgar was given an immediate rematch.
When I look at rankings, I always ask myself “Would #1 beat #2? Would #2 beat #3?” etc. etc. In my mind, and maybe I’m misinterpreting the intent of the rankings like Tonley suggests below, the rankings should be a list of who is currently the best fighter top to bottom. If we just wanted to list it based on accomplishments, you could write a computer program to do that.
I don’t think the fight against Edgar tells us anything out of the ordinary about Penn. Part of evaluating baseball statistics is understanding the level of noise in the stats. To me, MMA rankings have a high level of noise because they’re too sensitive to the most recent fight.
[apologies for the long rambling explanation — I know it isn’t terribly concise]
Think; It's not illegal yet.
I don’t think MMA is well-suited to baseball-type statistics. There just aren’t that many numbers to crunch. The only real numbers there are—outside of Fightmetric-type data—are win/loss statistics. And even Fightmetric has to deal with how to quantify grappling exchanges, how to classify blows… all kinds of qualitative considerations enter in.
In other words, I think the reactive-ness you’re objecting to is just part of the game. As I suggested before: if we decide we have to wait for Penn’s next fight to determine whether his last one was representative, then in order to be consistent, we have to wait until his next fight after that to determine whether the previous one was representative, ad infinitum.
You certainly could write a computer program to do accomplishment-based rankings. It’s been done, in fact. But you’ve still got to answer a bunch of tough and controversial questions just to get started. Which fights count in which weight classes? Do finishes count less than decisions? How do you deal with DQs, no contests, draws? etc. etc. Computer-based rankings are no less contested than manual ones for this reason.
I'm trying to get at rankings reacting too much to the latest fight
rather than the recent body of work for a fighter. I agree that there’s very little beyond that which could be incorporated into the rankings.
Think; It's not illegal yet.
I always saw rankings as reflections of accomplishment rather than talent...
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
1 Frankie
2 BJ
3 Melendez/Aoki
[dusts off hands] Well, glad that’s settled.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
by Ubernoober on Apr 11, 2010 8:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
First off, I want to preface this by saying I’m not really sure I disagree with you, I’m just being an asshole right now, but aren’t you always trying to fight the Fedor mythology which is entirely based on this concept?
If the #1 guy goes flying off the handle and takes on a bunch of easy fights and a dominant champ emerges from a murders row of challengers, I’m flexible. This clearly does not apply to the UFC LW title picture.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
I just wrote out a long and masturbatory post defending Fedor and erased it for two reasons. 1. Everything I would say has already been said ad nauseam. 2. This is about lightweight rankings and I need to pull my head out of my ass and stay on topic. So you win this round Noober, you win this round. Cherish this victory.
If Fedor wasnt undefeated and hadnt been champ from 2000 I wouldnt give him number one. but the guys he beat were just enough to keep him there for being outside the ufc ( Tim AA and rogers ) You cant say those guys werent legit so Fedor remains.
Brock beat Randy and Mir right? Its more about Brock being UFC and Brock being huge monster that people think he should be number 1.
Fedor has beaten every great HW of 2005, except for Barnett. The great HWs of 2010 have not been Fedorized yet, and we’ll probably never know for sure.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
So no one in the UFC HW division can ever become #1 because they aren’t allowed to fight Fedor. Is that the deal?
Not neccesarrily. I think if Brock beats Carwin, Cain and Dos Santos you have to argue that he is number 1. Same if Carwin beats Brock and then the other two.
Only problem is that if Fedor beats Werdum and Overeem I think we may be stuck again. Fedor cant stay outside forever I dont think.
If Fedor continutes fighting top ten guys and doesnt lose he cant be replaced. As much as it sucks
here is another mind blower
fighters can progress and improve.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Frankie has improved his boxing greatly. Maynard has improved his boxing greatly as well. Frankie can strike with anyone. Maynard isnt as good as Frankie is striking .
Maynard is a better wrestler. He can and will and has outwrestled the crap out of Frankie. Maynard will bully Frankie again even though Frankie is the more overall skilled fighter.
Gray Maynard should be your next champ but your gunna hate him for it. ( LNP )
this is very very possible.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Lightweight is a clusterfuck. Maynard already has a win over Edgar which could reasonably happen again if they were to fight. At the same time BJ and Florian would both be favorites over Maynard right, but BJ has beaten Florian and Edgar has beaten BJ. I think I just went cross eyed.
I don’t think Maynard has a chance in hell against BJ. I might add that I thought Frankie was going to be competitive with BJ and last at least 4 rounds with BJ. Just for reference.
Maynard is totally fucked against Penn while he would be the favorite for me against Frankie.
Fuckin LW picture is fuckin looking sick!
haha! yeah??? why isnt Maynard #1 according to most logic here?
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
Consider:
Maynard just looked like shit against Nate diaz
Edgar just beat BJ fucking Penn, the greatest lightweight of all time
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
but Maynard won, just like frankie won even tho BJ looked like shit.
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
SO you can go with my rankings pennedgar florian maynard
or Maynard Edgar etc.
Edgar should not be #1 though/
Aoki was already the #1 LW in the world based upon his entire body of work. If he wins against Melendez, he just further solidifies himself as the best Lightweight in the world.
Twitter: @FlyByKnite
by FlyByKnight on Apr 11, 2010 9:02 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Grand Prix!
UFC LW division Grand Prix. Get everything settled.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
No WAY dude!!!! Aoki is BOLLSHEET becuz he is not in da UFC bro.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s the pants. Pants to Aoki are like copromotion to Fedor.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
its actually his shoes
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
by ekc on Apr 11, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Why don’t you click your heels together three times and go back to Japan.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
they’re just invisible now, nanotech grappling pants. Only one atom thick, yet reactive to Aoki’s brain waves.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
is that a metal gear solid reference?
Twitter @i_c_u_hater
by Thats It For you! on Apr 12, 2010 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions
This is a test run of what will happen if Fedor loses to Werdum.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
If Fedor loses to Werdum, it actually becomes easier to rank the HW division
This is just a flustercuck
Yeah if Fedor loses to Werdum you just give the ranking to the UFC champ. And I’d say Junior slides in at number 2.
I was gonna make a list of how I would rank em, but I'll just wait to see if Fedor loses
Don’t wanna get into hypothetical arguments
I will be pulling for Werdum in this fight simply so I can watch the internets blow the fuck up.
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
2010 Brent Brookhouse Yearly Resume Rankings - Lightweight (updated post-UFC 112)
- Frankie Edgar
- Kenny Florian
- George Sotiropoulos
- Gray Maynard
- Rafael Dos Anjos
- Ben Henderson
- Jim Miller
- Sam Stout
- Clay Guida
- Cole Miller
These are based only on fights in 2010. Priority is given to fighters in the USAT/SBN Consensus Rankings. Wins over quality opponents (again with priority to wins over opponents ranked in the USAT/SBN CR) have most weight, followed by quality wins over non-ranked opponents, and then wins over scrubs. A fighter who has not fought in the current calendar year can not qualify to be ranked.
The winner of Aoki/Melendez will be #2 for the year so far because either guy’s win would not be as good as Edgar’s but better than Florian’s win over Gomi. Gomi was ranked #13, if Aoki wins it would be a win over the #8 fighter and if Melendez wins it’s over the #2 fighter (in the USAT/SBN rankings).
Dos Anjos getting his second win of the year jumped him up from #10 in the last version of these rankings to #5. His 2 wins combine to be a little more valuable than the single win of anyone else in the division below Maynard (Edgar, Florian, Sotiropoulos and Maynard are the only LW’s with wins over guy who were ranked at the time this year).
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MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 11, 2010 9:36 PM EDT reply actions
Technically wasn’t Aoki’s Dynamite! fight 2010?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
eeeehhhh...
I was conflicted about that. Since technically it was a NYE fight I decided to count it as 2009.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 11, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’m aware. But I wanted to go by the date that the event started in its own time zone.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 11, 2010 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
haha...
of course. Because on resume based rankings it’s a very good idea to look to have as few fights as possible.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 11, 2010 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
mixedmartialarts.com, wikipedia and sherdog all have the fight listed as 12/31/09. Case closed on that one for me
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by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 11, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun side note
Had Penn beat Edgar, then if Melendez beat Aoki the rankings would have Gilbert #1 and Penn #2 based on the value of their respective win.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Apr 11, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone think that Penn had Frankie on queer street right at the end of round 5? I think Penn landed some real hard shots at the end I anticipated that happening during the fight pretty much expected the competitive part but I thought Frankie would try for takedowns a little bit more.
Sooner of later I felt Penn was gunna hurt Frankie but Penn was gassed and its was too late. I must have underestimated Frankie’s chin a little or maybe it was just his defensive boxing allowing him to survive the shots.
I would never doubt Frankie’;s toughness though. When you say that you are willing to let your knee pop to get the W you are a tough tough bastard.
Might as well just segregate everything into UFC LW rankings and Dream/SF LW rankings.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
I think there are enough recent points of contact (Guida/Aurelio and Uno/Fisher especially) to do an integrated ranking, with the caveat that it’s a ranking that most people will disagree with.
With rankings—and nowhere more so than at lightweight—actual fight results have yet to catch up to public perception of fighter talent.
I'll never call him the best lightweight just for the fact that he crys.
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
Aoki and Penn have been neck and neck for the top lightweight spot for a long time now, and Penn’s loss should push Aoki to the front of the line.
Really and where the hell was I when this was happening?, because in reality there was no race for the top spot at LW since BJ won the belt. Frankie is clearly the number 1 LW in the world after his win over Penn he has a great resume and that is excluding the most important factor in these rankings.
That Aoki and alot of these other overated LW’s would get destroyed in the UFC by middle of the pack guys. It’s bad enough that people still want to cling on to the Fedor is number 1 myth but now trying to crown the Aoki/Melendez winner anything when the best LW’s are in the UFC is going too far.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
by midwestbred on Apr 11, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
I will have it as:
1. Edgar (even tho the decision was bogus)
2. Penn
3. Florian
4. Aoki
5. Someone that isn’t Eddie Alvarez.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
by Sam Cupitt on Apr 12, 2010 12:54 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I love watching Aoki...
but he would be an EASY fight for BJ Penn.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
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