Speed Kills Accurate Judgment in B.J. Penn, Frankie Edgar Title Showdown
by Leland Roling on Apr 11, 2010 4:05 PM EDT
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Following B.J. Penn's loss to Frankie Edgar yesterday at UFC 112, I was pretty confident in my assessment of what happened during the fight. B.J. Penn, in my mind, easily won round one and two without a shadow of a doubt. Frankie Edgar easily won round five. Rounds three and four were somewhat toss-ups for me, but round three was a "lean" in the direction of B.J. Penn for me.
Later, I re-watched the fight. Sitting at my computer desk sipping on coffee as I tediously watched both men exchange at blazing speeds, I realized that my initial assessment was correct. I felt B.J. Penn edged out Edgar 48-47 at the very least in this fight. Was I outraged? No, not at all. Not even in the slightest. Did I feel it was utterly despicable that some judge at cageside couldn't come up with the same score? No.
The reaction from fans following the event has been maddening in my mind. Some fans are throwing their hands up that the decision was "horrible" and those fans cannot believe someone would give Edgar the fight when it was "obvious" that Penn landed more and harder. Others state that Edgar was more active, throwing combinations, and moving aggressively.
Those arguments lead to the natural progression of any argument -- solid statistical data to back up a claim. Michael Fagan reported FightMetric's data and revealed that Penn came out on top in the striking war 49-47 by using their system. Compustrike had Edgar winning the exchanges. For me, FightMetric's dataset looks much more accurate, and I can probably back up that claim as I do believe their staff does a much more meticulous assessment following the fights versus on-the-fly data like Compustrike.
But does any of this matter? No, it doesn't. The larger issue that everyone is missing is that this fight really comes down to the judges and their views of the fight. No, not their idealogy as to how a fight is scored, but their actual view of the fight from a cageside position.
Seems a little low on the totem pole of importance, right? Wrong. While we're sitting at home with cameras zoomed into the action from an over-the-cage cameraman, we can see every single strike land. Judges, on the other hand, aren't given that opportunity, and even if they were at this event -- chances are they aren't staring at a 58" HDTV either.
The importance of their view is huge in this fight because it was so close. Frankie Edgar's use of combinations and overall speedy delivery also swayed judges in his favor in my mind. Many of those close exchanges didn't land well for Edgar, but it was perceived that they did due to the aggressiveness and movement forward during his attacks. At least that's what Compustrike's statistics suggest.
What really happened? Penn usually landed straight jabs as counters to those exchanges, and that's where much of the scoring was apparently missed. It seems judges aren't quick-minded enough to see these blows, or their viewpoint is useless at the side of the cage when the action is generally in the center or near the fence. Monitors may help, but with such blazing quick exchanges -- it's going to be tough for anyone not glued to a monitor.
Maybe I'm being a bit critical, but I sat up in my chair, stared at the television for the entire fight, and analyzed how this fight was going as strikes were being thrown. Am I being over demanding in believing that judges can do the same? I don't think I am.
You could argue that contenders need to take the belt from champions, but this isn't some sort of glam version of Cage Rage. The fight wasn't judged correctly, but I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus besides the 50-45 and 49-46 scoring judges. It was a tough fight to call, and it's apparent those two were unable to keep up with the speed of the exchanges. As easy as some may think this is to fix, it'll never be fixed. The speed at which both fighters exchanged over at least four rounds was apparently too much for some people.
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I watch the fight, and i thought BJ won the 1st. and 2nd. and Frankie won the rest.
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
50-45 was insane, but I am still not mad at this decision. Frankie’s boxing was great, and I had him taking rounds 1, 4 and 5 myself; round 1 narrowly.
by Polyhedron on Apr 11, 2010 4:12 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Strike - Counterstrike
I have a theoretical question for everyone: In a round where each fighter lands the exact same number of punches, but one fighter’s strikes opened every exchange and the other fighter landed all counters, how should it be scored?
by dribblebib on Apr 11, 2010 4:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I’d say whoever lands the more “effective” strikes (cleaner, does more damage, etc)
Green Jacket, Gold Jacket, who gives a shit?
What about the (impossible) situation where they are equally effective? I guess what I’m trying to get at is when does agression count?Does it only count after equal damage is delivered? Or can one fighter do slightly more damage but win the round by being more aggressive?
by dribblebib on Apr 11, 2010 4:43 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
10-10 Round
As long as the counterstrike is not whilst moving backwards:
K. Effective Aggressiveness
1. This simply means who is moving forward and finding success.(scoring)
2. Throwing a strike moving backwards is not as effective as a strike thrown moving forward.
Effective aggressiveness always counts but is also always weighted last:
7. Thus for all Judges scoring UFC fights, the prioritized order of evaluating criteria is:
-clean strikes and effective grappling are weighed first.
-octagon control
-effective aggressiveness
by mtherer on Apr 11, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
NOT the most current set of rules
Lembo and Kizer passed along the most updated set of rules for my interview with Nick in November of ’09. We covered a lot of the details on Shogun/Machida and how it should be scored.
This fight was like Shogun and Machida in that I don’t think it could possibly have been scored accurately live or cageside because of the frequency, speed, and complexity of the striking. Think about how much action takes place in basically a few split seconds when these top level fighters start exchanging at full-bore.
I’m pulling this out of my ass, so bear with my estimate, but I would say that a 3-punch combination can be thrown in about 2 seconds. You have two guys firing off 2- and 3-punch combinations at warp speed, with a ton of dynamic motion with head-movement and footwork, and we expect one guy looking through a cage to properly analyze how many of those 4-6 punches in the span of around 2 seconds a) land cleanly, b) were partially blocked, or c) were completely slipped/avoided.
Now think about how many of those exchanges happen in a 5-minute round, and now a 5-round fight. The striking is becoming more advanced in every way than ever before, and the judging methods remain somewhat archaic.
Effective striking is judged by determining the number of legal strikes landed by a
contestant and the significance of such legal strikes.
That’s the #1 criteria for the fight since there was no groundwork, followed by octagon control, aggression, and defense, in that order of priority.
Fighting area control is judged by determining who is dictating the pace, location and position of the bout. Examples of factors to consider are countering a grappler’s attempt at takedown by remaining standing and legally striking; taking down an opponent to force a ground fight; creating threatening submission attempts, passing the guard to achieve mount, and creating striking opportunities.
I think that Edgar’s steady and frenetic output earned him the octagon control point, because even though Penn was shaking off takedowns, Edgar’s diverse motion while Penn remained more static could be viewed as “creating striking opportunities” and “dictacting the pace” of the bout. I purposely left out location and position of the fight, because there’s a good argument there for Penn.
Frankie’s movement could be viewed like Smoogy described, or could conceivably be construed as controlling where and when the striking took place. I think the tactic in itself should qualify as more aggression, especially as BJ’s momentum definitively slowed in the later rounds.
I believe it gave enough of an appearance for Edgar to win octagon control (in most rounds), and aggression… so if the striking count was, let’s say, “close”, then these two other credentials could certainly sway a judge towards Edgar. I’m speculating how the judges may have looked at the round in the big picture of things.
Obviously, there is never any way in hell that the judges could tabulate things like FightMetric under the existing set-up. So, to summarize, I think the #1 category in striking was so close, that Edgar’s frenetic pace earned him the control and aggression points to sway the stalemate in the striking department his way.
by Dallas Winston on Apr 11, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My pleasure, sir.
I appreciate the good discussion from all; this article and the comments were a great read.
By the way Leland, this was why I “Tweeted” you a question about the definition of “Hi-Per” strikes. I’m assuming “high percentage”, but I couldn’t find a specific explanation on the site.
I was curious because FightMetric lists 71 of 72 punches for BJ as Hi-Per.
by Dallas Winston on Apr 11, 2010 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions
High-Power?
I’m just guessing, but it would follow from the 4th “principle” of the fightmetric system
4. Not all strikes are created equal – Power matters a great deal. Even a total head strike count means nothing unless you know how many of those strikes were landed with power.
I have BJ winning at least 3-2 maybe 4-1 or maybe 3-1-1 ( draw for one round ) Pretty accurate with the Fight Metric scoring.
However I hope this puts speed up there as an advantage.
Too many times I have to hear that fighter A is bigger stronger so he should win.
Speed = Size Its just as big of a factor if not a bigger factor. Lets get our knowledge up guys.
Edgar proved that you can win a major title fight by shucking around a lot and looking busy, even if the other guy is actively out-punching you for the duration. Wrestleboxing has truly arrived.
by smoogy2 on Apr 11, 2010 4:22 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
How did you score the fight Smoogy?
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
50-45 Penn
Edgar would bounce a round for a while, step in to shoot or throw a quick combination, get shrugged off/miss, and then Penn would swat him away with short punches. Penn seemed to land more left hooks on the inside than all of Edgar’s attacks combined. So basically Penn stood in the middle of the cage all night, and Edgar couldn’t do anything to get to him. I don’t get the argument that Penn was “out-worked”. Apparently he was obligated to throw in a bunch of wasted movement to keep pace with Edgar’s pantomime between every exchange.
Because hd knows he shoulda subbed him in the first
or at least won 50-43 across the board
How quickly we forget the all important judging criterion of post-fight expressions.
by George Lucas on Apr 11, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
We need to put Razzel on the payroll as post-fight expression interpreter. I can never tell the difference between “I was out-pointed in this fight” and “I just fought for 25 minutes and now I’m really fucking tired”.
Too tired to put your hands in the air?
I’m guessing if he had really thought he just retained his belt, he wouldn’t have been so “tired”.
Oh and what am I basing this off of? Oh just every other victory in Penn’s entire career.
Yeah, that seems sufficient. But no, go ahead believing he was just really tired. That makes sense.
The guy who puts his hands up after a fight is clearly always the winner.
by George Lucas on Apr 11, 2010 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions
50-45 Penn is silly.
I think it was very close. I don’t think Penn won every round, not even close. And there was no way Edgar won every round. Do I think Edgar did enough to win? Not necessarily, but I can see why people would lean his way. Honestly, I saw it going either way. I was surprised, let’s put it that way.
I don't want to lick any butt. - GSP
Ultimately, this is exactly my point.
A lot of movement and throwing missing combinations does not equal lands.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 11, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Smoogy the best line I heard all day on hear and I belive its 100% true on what happend hear. Breen said the same exact thing as you that Edgar pretty much fooled the Judges into thinking he did more then he actually did not to mention his corner screaming EYYYYYY every time he landed a shot like he rocked BJ or something but took 3 counter strikes from BJ in return. I have watched this fight now 3 times sence the show 4 all together with out the volume on becasue I just can’t stand the bias commentary of Rogan and Goldy seeing If I would see it different and try to find atleat 2 more rounds I could give Edgar then the 5th I don’t I still can’t. I give Penn rounds 1 threw 4 and Frankie the 5th every time I watch the fight,
same thing.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Yeah, I can see the case for giving Edgar Round 5, and I can even see Round 4 being a 10-10… but there can be no question Penn won those first three rounds. Virtually every time they exchanged, Edgar would get brushed off with a short hook, or thrown 4 feet in the other direction if he tried to get a takedown. He never even backed Penn up, let alone hit him with anything that he couldn’t walk through.
Between the shocking amount of people who are fine with this decision, and the ones who insisted Gomi was getting “picked apart” standing the whole time against Florian, I’m really starting to believe that when a UFC fight turns into a boxing match, most fans have no fucking clue what they’re watching.
by smoogy2 on Apr 11, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
2 reasons that people are not up in arms over this like they should be is #1 people love to hate Penn and #2 is Rogan and Goldy totaly sold it to the fans who were watching with there over the top bias commentary for Frankie that Edgar was somehow winning this fight. If a decision like this were to happen to Say GSP or Randy Couture it would be the biggest outrage in all of MMA in most fans eyes. The bottom line is I don’t care if you love or hate BJ or any fighter for that matter decisions like this are bad for the sport and no fans should want to see them stand and keep happening, These Judges just keep getting worse it seems like every other event now. I just can’t see how any half way smart MMA fan does not score this fight especially the first 3 rounds for Penn easy.
Hopefully we can be smarter about judging. Dana you strive in taking the good in boxing and leaving out the bad. Ringside judging is a fail.
We need judges in the back looking at the fight watching slow mo everything watch it a couple times whatever you gotta do.
This is 2010 lets act like this people.
At least the championship fights lets get it right. These are a huge deal for history and legacies.
Forrest Rampage, Shogun machida and now Penn Edgar are eyesores and should not happen at this level with this technology. You should be ashamed of urself you know the right thing to do.
I haven’t see the Compustrike numbers (their site appears to be down at the moment), but I just can’t abide by numbers collected in real-time. There’s just no way to maintain accuracy. And if Compustrike can’t do justice to the fight using video that always shows the best angle, how can we expect judges to do their job sitting ringside?
I personaly thought BJ won 48-47
Does the fact that Frankie won bother me? No because i could see one of the closer rounds go either way, what does bother me is that one judge that had it 50-45. It’s like they are basically saying that if it looks like you are doing more we will give you the win even if you actually aren’t doing as much damage.
I guess what bothers me isn’t that frankie won but rather how bad MMA judges have gotten. If all judges had scored it 48-47 for frankie i don’t think anyone would be complaining.
And it wasn’t just this fight, i saw the scores for the Anderson fight which were ridiculous too.
I don't judge on cuts
but its not like frankie did no damage…BJ was pretty roughed up so at least some of those punches were getting through .
“If all judges had scored it 48-47 for frankie i don’t think anyone would be complaining.”
C’mon, no matter what happened, some section of people would be complaining. Someone is always complaining about somthing.
I had BJ at 49-47 as well and I watched the fight glues to my big screen with the sound off (usually like rogan and goldie but after round 1 i knew i would need to watch closely)
With that being said I’m not disappointed that Frankie got the decision because I know its a lot easier for us at home to see whats happening in the fight as opposed to the judges sitting cageside with a limited view. Would it be better to have the judges watch on a monitor with the UFC camera angles to score a fight? I think so but its debatable.
I feel sorry for the next person who has to fight BJ though, whether it be at 170 or 155 BJs gonna come out like a man possessed and buzzsaw through whoever is in front of him
Green Jacket, Gold Jacket, who gives a shit?
My assessment of the fight:
R1 BJ is stinging Edgar with hard counters.
R2 Edgar is game, but getting outstruck
R3 Started mixing Red Bull and beer
R4 {missing reel}
R5 Frankie is still awake?!?!??!
Decision: WOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Conclusion: Don’t mix Red Bull and beer.
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
by Ubernoober on Apr 11, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
2 things I take from this fight was how again did rua lose to machida while edgar gets this nod here and don’t remember catching if the judges were from the states or abu dhabi assigned…50-45???
by itsomething81 on Apr 11, 2010 4:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I feel the same itsomething81
However I will explain
I think even Fight Metric had Machida winning
There is a flaw in the system but its takes a special circumstance to happen
Left Straight vs Leg Kick Do I need to go more in depth or are you aware of this?
I thought Fight Metric had Shogun winning??
"Everyone has a game plan, untell they get hit." -Mike Tyson
Oh Ok so I don’t have to explain that theory then. Good stuff. Man that Fight Metric is fucking onpoint. Name a fight that Fight Metric has disappointed. Bisbing Hammil? Or they got that right as well.
Man FightMetric >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Judges.
Man now I am pissed off. Fight Metric is so fucking on point , Fuck using judges I rather have the Fight Metric be the fucking Judge. Man 3 belts fucked up because of bad judging. This is fuckin unacceptable man.
Rampage, Shogun, and Bj Penn all three premiere fighters fucked out of the gold. This is bullshit!
by p123 on Apr 11, 2010 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Getting Serraed = Old and busted
Getting Frankied = New hotness
Keep Firing, Assholes!
I like things that don't make sense.
by Ubernoober on Apr 11, 2010 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
nice MIB 2 reference
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 11, 2010 10:23 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Peoples is the worst judge ever. 50-45 is a joke. Frankie had a lot if movement but bj held the center if the cage for the majority if the fight and he landed more strikes. It didn’t even look like bj was trying. I really think he was injured or just didn’t want the belt anymore. Does anyone know if he did any postfight interviews or give comments????
by JCBee on Apr 11, 2010 4:47 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I Had Edgar 48-47
I felt the sole employment to a great degree of the jab by Penn was his undoing on the scorecards. I Had Penn winning the first and third, with Edgar taking the second, fourth and fifth round. The 50-45 was a bit incredulous of the judge but i could have seen it being 49-46 for Edgar as well.
I don’t know how you guys can score those fights live. It’s absolutely too fast for me (and the last thing I want to bother with are points) to have an accurate judgment, I would have to watch it in slow mo.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Yeah, too fast for me too.
To me it looked like Frankie was really outscoring Penn on the feet. Since everyone who done some serious counting is clearly on the other side of this judgment I assume that I was totally wrong in this assessment.
Actually, I think Leland’s explanation to the scoring is very believable. I know from earlier that I tend to not see the types of jabs that BJ (and others) use. It has happened more than once that I think not much is happening and then suddenly I see one fighter’s face is all blood and cuts, often due to quick jabs from the other guy.
(If I sound like I have something in my ass in the comment above it’s mainly because English is my second language. It is also because I adore Frank Mir and want to comment like he speaks.)
Then we have 4 things in common, not our first language, 155 boxers are a bit too fast for us, we want to talk like Frank Mir…do we? Of course we do. And last but not least I had hemorrhoid not so long ago!
I'm a lover not a fighter
Do I want to speak like Frankk Mir? Do I want to go an English speaking country and have people tell me “English is only your second language, but still you sound so stuck up and passive agressive, yet so verbose”? I would say definitely yes. I want this type of English to become the first Octagon related creole.
hey does anyone have that gif with the Situation guy from Jersey Shore. That was exactly my face when I heard and the " New " Please post gif thanks lol
Oh yea do you guys want to see that guy get beat up? Im good friends with one of them on the show and Im supposed to go out there soon.
Get wasted and blast Situation ? Yea? Or Nay?
It’s really not worth it, although it would be quite funny.
by ufc4 on Apr 11, 2010 6:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yea, although his roid strength will have you at an immediate disadvantage, not to mention it’ll be hard to sink in any type of submission when his sweat,hair product, and ab oil mixes together. Phil Nurse could learn a thing or two from the situation if he wants to perfect his greasing game
and this is what I looked like when the “New” LW Champion of the World Was Announced:
followed by:
Green Jacket, Gold Jacket, who gives a shit?
I thought Cecil Peoples was the one that scored it 50-45 but I can’t find anything to confirm it.
by JCBee on Apr 11, 2010 5:22 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
It was Douglas Crosby
"Adam Sandler is like in love with some girl, but then it turns out that this girl is actually a golden retriever or something."
by Earl Montclair on Apr 11, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn your gif is fucking up my computer!
Im not really too worried about the Situations size. I am about as big as him. I pretty much dwarf Ronnie. People don’t know but Ronnie is only like 5’6 . he has always been knocking dudes out little bastard.
Im pretty much Paul harris with 20 lbs more 10 fat 10 muscle . I hit like a damn mule though for some reason eevn though Im a relative midget ( 5’8 ) I am dieing to hit one of those PSI things and really see how strong I punch. Got a real solid straight right that would rock almost anyone and I got a left hook from hell.
Do you guys think that wood be awesome though to be the guy that knocked that jerk out on tv. Or do you think I would get in a lotta trouble.
I agree 200% Leland Roling
That’s the exact same way I scored the fight and the exact same way I understood the judges scorecards.
Judges were fooled by Edgar movements and speed and actually didn’t score the fight because of who was landing but because of who “appeard more active”.
So I understood why judges could have scored it that way. But I find it extremly weird that some fans who watched the fight on their TV had the same trouble scoring the fight and were fooled the same way.
“The fight wasn’t judged correctly, but I’m not going to throw anyone under the bus besides the 50-45 and 49-46 scoring judges.”
So you’re only calling out two-thirds of the judges? Seems like an odd statement. Nobody is perfect but if I performed my job as poorly as those two judges performed theirs last night I wouldn’t have a job, the scoring of that fight (which BJ clearly won in my mind) was a disgrace to the sport.
by ufc4 on Apr 11, 2010 5:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
50-45 does not fall under “Nobody is perfect” and neither does 49-46 in my mind.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 11, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
That was kinda my point. If someone can misjudge a fight that badly they have no business trying to perform the task.
by ufc4 on Apr 11, 2010 6:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Right, I’m saying that I wouldn’t throw someone under the bus that got it wrong from my assessment. 48-47 Edgar, I could see as a score. But 50-45, that guy should probably quit.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 11, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
What's funny about all this...
Is BJ didn’t think he won. Look at his face at the end of the fight. He was hanging low like a guy who knew he got beat, Edgar had his arms up like he knew he won. Seems like everyone in that building thought Penn got beat.
Your grasp of fight psychology is astounding
BJ Penn was clearly disappointed in his performance, it was obvious. That said, “I’m disappointed” =/= “I lost”
Right, GSP said he was disappointed too, so did Hardy beat him?
by ufc4 on Apr 11, 2010 6:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Also note...
…BJ’s corner was telling him to take Edgar down and they said it with urgency. I never heard them say that with Sanchez, Florian, etc. Granted I’m obviously not in his corner between every round except for when the cameras are.
"Don't mistake activity with achievement."
- John Wooden.
The hubs was reminded of this quote this morning thinking of the fight, and it fits.
I just re-watched the Penn/Edgar fight and I scored it a draw. R1 and R2 for Penn. R3 a tie. R4 and R5 for Edgar. It is a very difficult fight to score. In the eyes of the judges Edgar’s constant movement may have been seen as Octagon control and possibly aggression giving more points to Edgar. Also BJ was more visibly busted up and Edgar was mixing up his strikes much more then BJ was. Either way, BJ definitely fought Edgar’s fight. Edgar’s only chance was to fight on the outside with tons of feints and movement and BJ allowed him to do that. Some clues to the way BJ thought the fight was going: He didn’t listen to his corner who told him to take Edgar down after R3. In between the R4 and R5 he put both arms up on the cage with his dead between them, just like he did when GSP was beating his ass. He didn’t celebrate at the end of the fight before the decision was announced and instead looked like the beaten man while Edgar was celebrating. Also Penn didn’t look surprised when the decision was announced. This was all around not a good fight for Penn, who I believe would win 8 out of 10 times. Congrats to Edgar who came in and executed a perfect game plan against one of the best fighters in the world. At least the LW scene has been shaken up.
Sorry, I'm like... new here
Forgive my poor forum etiquette if I should have left that longwinded mess up above down at the bottom instead of in response to the question about the updated rules.
It's no problem new guy we're all cool here
but a…how bout you let me hold your lunch money kid?
"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"
^Sure, you can hold my lunch money!
You just have to grab it with your mouth. I keep it stuffed down here in my crotch.
:) kidding
Now THAT, you have to agree, is poor forum etiquette.
If you're on Sherdog
it’s considered the standard.
"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"
I don’t think the judges were confused about anything, there have been horrible decisions and head scratching scores these past few years. Luckily this fight got the correct winner even if the scores were questionable and in the end that is all that really matters.
Frankie outworked and outgame planned Penn in a beautiful display of true mixed martial arts. He proved that Penn was far from invincible and that with earth and determination you can do it all and become the best LW in the world today. I was never really a fan of the guy I respected him as a fighter but after his performance he’s made a fan of me for life.
Outgameplanned?
Edgar was outstruck every round except the 5th.
Outworked…as in busier….yes.
He tricked the judges into thinking he was winning the exchanges, when in reality, he really wasn’t.
You can see in this fight that Frankie belongs with the upper tier fighters, no doubt.
But last night, Edgar just got lucky he got a gift decision.
by MickDawg on Apr 12, 2010 2:51 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Cageside is really not the best vantage point for judging
Get the judges some big damn monitors at least
Good point
Perhaps they would be best off in a soundproof room with hi def TVs.
by kibbled_bits on Apr 12, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I could care less what a couple knuckle heads had to say...
BJ Penn is the greatest Light weight in the world and he showed it once again against Frankie Edgar.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
It is an injustice
Because no trained eye should have seen this fight as close, based on the 10 point must system.
Now if I had put my grandmother in front of the fight, I would fully expect her to see it close either way. Although Grandma would have picked BJ because he has less tattoos.
Seriously, if you took someone who even THOUGHT it was a close fight, how can you NOT award it to the champion? I think we’ve fallen in love the the “Underdog” so much that we consider decisions like this reasonable.
I knew for sure that BJ Penn won this fight – I was disappointed with the judging but I know that Edgar is not going to stay champion so I can rest assured with that.
If Dana gives Florian another title shot there is no way I can watch – come on now 3 title shots!?!
Yes, time flies. And where did it leave you? Old too soon...smart too late. - Mike Tyson
My contribution
http://thegarv.com/Penn-vs.-Edgar-the-Controversy-and-a-Microscopic-Analysis-of-the-Scores.html
This was 12 hours of my day yesterday. This article from Leland, smoogy’s comments, and Crosby’s… explanation of his scoring inspired me to take on the chore of dissecting each significant sequence to extract my interpretation of the winner, and to analyze whether the perception of Edgar’s frenetic pace and movement may have had an impact on the brass tacks of scoring.
It did.
Thanks for the great article and discussion here that lead me to pursue it myself.
by Dallas Winston on Apr 13, 2010 10:12 AM EDT reply actions
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