FightMetric Report for B.J. Penn vs. Frankie Edgar at UFC 112
by Mike Fagan on Apr 11, 2010 3:23 AM EDT
in MMA News
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FightMetric has released it's report for the B.J. Penn/Frank Edgar fight at UFC 112. Here's the Effectiveness Score and ten point must system scoring round-by-round:
| Round | Penn | Edgar | TPM |
| 1 | 94 | 34 | 10-9 Penn |
| 2 | 110 | 28 | 10-9 Penn |
| 3 | 55 | 43 | 10-9 Penn |
| 4 | 57 | 55 | 10-10 |
| 5 | 63 | 96 | 10-9 Edgar |
| Total | 373 | 263 | 49-47 Penn |
Well, that really puts a dent in Douglas Crosby's 50-45 scorecard now, doesn't it?
That said, while the first two rounds very clearly go to Penn, rounds 3-5 are close enough that it's defensible to give Frankie Edgar a 48-47 decision. I don't think anyone would dispute that.
Still, with a 100 point advantage in the Effectiveness Score (and personally scoring the bout the exact same way as FightMetric when I watched the fight "live"), Edgar's victory leaves a sore taste in my mouth.
Notable stats:
-FightMetric credited Edgar with 13 takedowns attempts, with 1 success. They did not award him a takedown in round 2 because "he was unable to establish an advantageous position before Penn got back to his feet."
-Penn edged Edgar in total strikes 72 to 63.
-Penn edged Edgar in HiPer strikes 71 to 61.
-Penn attacked more to the head with 61 of his 72 strikes, while Edgar threw 24 of his 63 strikes to the legs and body.
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Edgar's win left a sore spot in my MMAPlayground wallet...
I like that they didn’t give credit for the takedown in round 2 since Penn got right back up. This almost makes me wish they would hold off on announcing the winner until they can tally all the data like this. While I still don’t think it’s a “robbery”, it certainly doesn’t seem right.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 11, 2010 12:50 AM EDT reply actions
Just cause Edgar moved more doesn’t mean he should have won…
by ontite on Apr 11, 2010 12:51 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The only thing that isn’t right is believing in Fight Metric as proof of anything, i’ve read plenty of their reports to not trust them overmyself. I ended up rewatching the fight again and came to the same conclusion Frankie won 3 rounds to BJ’s 2 people can complain about the cards all they want but the correct guy for won the fight congrats to Frankie.
by Raker on Apr 11, 2010 12:52 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Fight metric will be the first to say that their scores are not to be taken as fact, its just another way to look at the fight. You should give every fight your own score first. Rec’d.
lol
Considering they have 3 staff with university degrees in statistics or something close to it, and watch the fight frame by frame, and Leland also does fightmetrics, i’d say its safe to trust there judgement before i seen fight 5 times, now i can see myself that it was way more accurate then compustrikes on the fly calculations
by Mitch Wilson on Apr 12, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
correct for you?
he dethroned the champion by PRANCING AROUND THE OCTAGON for 5 rounds, what fight were you watching?
bj landed a hell of a lot more strikes, were it not for edgar’s dance routine the entire fight coupled with a pudgy bj, i’m sure penn would have gotten the ko or tko
Did you even SEE BJ’s face after the fight? And if you call effective footwork prancing, then I can’t wait to see more fighters learn to prance. Troll!
nowhere in my comment did i say bj emerged from the fight unscathed,
i said bj landed a lot more strikes, which is confirmed via fightmetric
you’re the f-king troll
calling someone a troll is so elementary.
juggmester, you should really try to expand your vocab, and perhaps not be such a douche
The only problems fight metric has is in evaluating transitions and grappling — since there were none of these in the Penn/Edgar fight, FM will be incredibly accurate. Just a question: did you go through the fight frame by frame and tabulate the amount of strikes and their effectiveness? Fight Metric did, and it clearly shows that BJ landed more with substantially more effectiveness.
No one is saying that BJ won the fight, because obviously he lost by judges decision. All people are saying is that BJ was a more effective fighter and when you look at the fight, minus the dancing and prancing, completely objectively, BJ did more.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
It also shows that the 3rd and 4th rounds were very close
with the 5th going to Frankie. And since fights are scored on a round-by-round basis, if the judges saw rounds 3 & 4 going to Frank, then he could win the fight. I absolutely will agree with anyone who says that 50-45 and 49-46 were off base. And obviously, you can say BJ was the more effective fighter on the whole for the fight. But when taken round-by-round, and adding in the takedown attempts and takedowns that Frankie got, a very good case can be made that he won the fight.
i feel sorry for bj’s next opponent, they are gonna get wrecked…
any word on bj’s knee? ihe had a brace on.. i found that too be odd cause i don’t think i have ever seen him with a knee brace on.
BJ used to wear the knee braces a lot back in the day when he still had hair, I think he might have been using it for traction purposes maybe if he was to be on the ground, a la George Sotrioproloslaoslsol
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
by WeaponElDeem on Apr 11, 2010 3:44 AM EDT up reply actions
it didn’t feel like a loss, I still think bj is a better fighter
by cagefightonacid on Apr 11, 2010 12:55 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
for sure, i doubt edgar defends his title even once… while i respect the guy, tons of heart and an entertaining fighter, i have no reason to believe he wouldn’t lose to maynard again or get annihalated by kenflo. my hope is that kenflo gets first crack at edgar while bj gets maynard, bj runs right through maynard and kenflo wins the belt setting up kenflo vs. bj II only this time the champion challenger roles reversed… huge buyrate imo.
by nogroundgame on Apr 11, 2010 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
The coolest thing about FM is the Total Effectiveness Score:
Edgar: 257
Penn: 368
To put this in perspective, Fight Metric just released Silva/Maia:
Silva: 213
Maia: 87
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
by mma_dude on Apr 11, 2010 1:03 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well
I think this makes FightMetric look bad
116 difference in Maia/silva
111 difference in Edgar/penn
The two fights were night and day different
all you gotta do is...
10 off while drunk isn’t so bad! You’re too hard on yourself.
by former tuf noob on Apr 11, 2010 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Is it? Silva basically checked out for 3 rounds, in which Maia was actually able to land some power punches.
Just because he looked outclassed and was getting mocked doesn’t mean the punches he was landing were for nothing.
by George Lucas on Apr 11, 2010 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Think of it as a ratio.
Using these stats, Edgar did ~70% as well as Penn. Maia only did ~41% of Silva’s performance. That’s a big difference.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Apr 11, 2010 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Bad decision imo
Frankie’s movement was good, but through the first three his most successful offense was a half second takedown, and some good leg kicks, and movement/feints… I also thought rd 4 was close, but watching the fight I thought BJ was doing more damage in that round as well…
Good Fight, but i thought BJ was winning a good decision the whole time.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
i did think he was fresher in the 5th, and won that round though.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
In my mind, this is an acceptable decision to a very close fight.
Except the 50-45. There’s nothing acceptable about that. That guy should be barred from judging. I still can’t get my head around that.
Hello. I take stuff too seriously.
by The Flying Gentleman on Apr 11, 2010 1:05 AM EDT reply actions
I agree
As soon as I heard 50-45 I was thinking “damn, I guess BJ got it.” I personally had 1 & 2 for BJ and 3-5 for Frankie. I thought 1 & 2 were clearly Penn, 3 & 5 were definitely Frank’s and 4 was a tossup.
You must have been drunk or high or perhaps a Rogan nut hugger
by kibbled_bits on Apr 11, 2010 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I havent seen the Penn fight yet,
Did Rogan say Frankie won?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Pretty much the entire fight Rogan was calling it pretty neutral. The odd thing was, when Edgar seemed to be winning to me and everyone in my living room’s eyes, Rogan was calling it that it was “super tight” and nobody knew who was winning. I am feeling like I must have watched a different fight than The Internet.
The "Rogan Nut Hugger" thing has just become way too popular to say on the net when a fans favourite fighter didn't win.
Rogan did no favouritism in the Penn/Edgar fight at all, he was just impressed that Edgar was still in it and receiving very little damage against what should have been a very dominating Opponent, I can’t remember Rogan or Goldberg saying Edgar had won the fight once before the decision.
by TheKeyboardWarrior on Apr 11, 2010 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Really I thought Rogan had toal bias towards Edgar. There was times Frankie would hit BJ with a leg kick but get his head snapped back with a jab or baby left hook and all Rogan could go on about was the leg kick, same with FRankie coming in at times FRankie would land one shot usally a over hand right but eat 2 to 3 counters and all Rogan went on bout was Edgar. Ttoal Bias in that fight buy Rogan.
You assumed Frankies punches where landing. Its ok it happens to the best of us. Even the judges made the same mistake albiet they have more of a disadvantage as they dont have the television but you do.
Just because something moves alot doesnt mean it hits alot. Watch a Mayweather fight in slow mo and you will see what Im talking about.
I don’t think he could if he wanted to.
Hello. I take stuff too seriously.
by The Flying Gentleman on Apr 11, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
come on nnow there is no way Frankie won that fight 49-46 eather. Thats another horrible score.
by Shocbomb on Apr 11, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the 49-46 guy should be grateful there was 1 person more incompetent there to take the spotlight.
by Grimacer on Apr 11, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is the story of the night.
And sadly, it is getting lost in all the lame anderson hate… No one in his right mind could’ve scored that bout as 50-45 or 49-46. that’s just plain stupid, OR and I hope this isn’t the case, corrupt.
and again, major props to Fagan for this piece.
Meh, just stupidity. MMA is still in its infancy. Blunders and growing pains like this are inevitable for the time being me thinks. HOPEFULLY the incompetence can be weeded out going forward.
Hello. I take stuff too seriously.
by The Flying Gentleman on Apr 11, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions
the problem with that is that the comissions never admit they are wrong.. what i would like to see is referees getting fined for bad calls, as well as the judges. but they seem to have the idea that they are infallible… having that attitude, i can tell you there won’t be a time shit ever changes for the better no matter how far the sport goes.
by nogroundgame on Apr 11, 2010 1:48 AM EDT up reply actions
at those odds ALOT of cash could be made w/ edgar winning
by nogroundgame on Apr 11, 2010 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
True
But fortunately Frankie doesn’t seem like a media whore and I’m sure he’s gonna have a great week anyway. Good for him, he deserves it.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Apr 11, 2010 3:04 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I had it 50-45
for Penn. In retrospect, he probably lost the last round. But he landed the counter left hook all day long and Edgar just had no answer for it whatsoever.
by George Lucas on Apr 11, 2010 3:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I was pretty surprised at this decision; I didn’t think Frankie was going to win. I admit I wasn’t watching with the thought of having a close scoring decision in mind when I watched the fight; so I’d have to watch it again before arguing. But I felt BJ was going to hold onto his belt. He still seemed off, Edgar might have had his timing down. And overall I found the fight pretty boring.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
Worst part about the AS fight
Is that it overshadowed BJ getting a screwjob. Taking nothing away from Edgar who fought a brave and crafty fight, which he lost.
I rofl’d at the 50-45. Figured “oh well its a BJ win” Then Buffer said “new” and i shit cinder blocks. Kinda figured this is how the Metric was gonna turn out tho
http://mixedmartialartsblogger.wordpress.com/
by Cory Braiterman on Apr 11, 2010 1:32 AM EDT reply actions
I find it funny
How many of you came on here and ranted at what a terrible decision the Machida/Shogun fight was, and pointed to fight metric as undeniable proof. And now, fight metric shows an even wider margin of victory for Penn that it did for Shogun, and you now throw out fight metric as any kind of measure of the winner of the fight.
by SimplePsych on Apr 11, 2010 1:33 AM EDT reply actions 12 recs
eh, I don’t know about anyone else but i’ve been saying that FightMetric is full of crap for awhile now.
totaly disagree I think fight metric is the best system we have right now for seeing the true outcome of a fight.
by Shocbomb on Apr 11, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So True
I thought Machida beat Shogun narrowly and BJ obviously won this fight
by kibbled_bits on Apr 11, 2010 1:47 AM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
2nd that
"Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf**ker" - Jules Winnfield
by WeaponElDeem on Apr 11, 2010 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions
I count four posts out of 20+ plus above yours that say anything remotely resembling this.
by George Lucas on Apr 11, 2010 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions
This just in from BJPenn.com....
The more you drive, the less intelligent you are.
by Koob on Apr 11, 2010 1:35 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
After the fight BJ put up a video on his web site and he was very humble saying congratulations to Frankie.
by bigislandboi808 on Apr 11, 2010 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably because a lot of the MMA community are morons who can’t handle trash talk without trying to ruin someones reputation as a fighter or person. If BJ spoke out, these morons would rise again. He will probably just go out and win the rematch. Frankie is NOT a better fighter than BJ. He was a scared gnat bouncing around for 5 rounds while BJ controlled the center of the octagon and landed more and better strikes. What a joke.
You know what
I agree with you about some fans being too sensitive. It’s not like I actively cheer for jerks but some people get so easily offended especially considering the nature of the sport they’re fans of. But then when they think someone’s being fake and pretending to be humble they call them an asshole anyway like Shane Carwin, it’s why I appreciate a guy like Frank Mir as far as being genuine.
"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"
i can't believe they awarded the title to edgar for all the prancing around that he did;
he’s also lucky that bj penn came into the fight out of shape… did you guys notice how pudgy bj’s midsection was?
and similar to the machida- shogun fight, joe rogan was screaming “leg kick” while at the same not noticing the punches that bj countered with
by theblade on Apr 11, 2010 1:44 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rogan has an orgasm anytime someone lands a leg kick
Rewatch the Machida v Shogun fight
by kibbled_bits on Apr 11, 2010 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions
or, have you noticed that anytime anyone, even someone that is clueless on the ground tries to do anything with their leg, rogan gets excited an announces an attempted omniplata… even though the person might not know how to do it.. lol
by nogroundgame on Apr 11, 2010 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions
did you spell that wrong on purpose???
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Come on, look at his user name...
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
uber, was our bet till after 112, or a month after Vera/Jones?
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Until Vera comes back.
[I keed, I keed]
You can change it now if you like, but I think your avatar looks better the way it is now, actually.
Blackout is always right
by Ubernoober on Apr 11, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll keep it until a month after the Vera fight,
just cause I love our country that much. ;)
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one who was expecting Maia to get the decision based on the Penn-Edgar decision?
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
imo, if maia won it i wouldn’t have been surprised, he was at least engaging.. didn’t see the score.. but i hope it’s not a 50-45.. maia imo def. had the 5th round at least.
by nogroundgame on Apr 11, 2010 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions
I got rounds 1 and 2 as a 10-8
mostly because Maia did absolutely nothing.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:26 AM EDT up reply actions
just checked the stats,
Maia landed 1 strike the first two rounds.. a leg kick.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
that's not ture, but the sad thing is,
the Silva fight was spent standing. haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I can see scoring it that way but there have been very few 10-8 rounds lately.
I dislike Matt Hughes. Shogun beat him like a dirty horse.
Yup, I agree with people giving those 10-9s, and I don't expect seeing 10-8s anyway.
But I just think they should use 10-10s and 10-8s a lotttt more.
If they did, I think that would qualify as a 10-8 cause it was basically all standup, Maia got knocked down, and he wasn’t able to land a single strike on Silva.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 5:19 AM EDT up reply actions
i was at the arena, and when they announced Frankie as the winner especially after saying one card was 50-45, i was SHOCKED… i thought “damn, i guess i have no idea what i am watching?”
"I’m not going to stop yelling because that would mean, I lost the fight!"-Kenny Powers
shooter/cutter for AllElbows.com, mma enthusiast
crazy people made you doubt your sanity. That is not right. haha.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Thank you fightmetric for making me feel sane again.
For a while there I was all:
by jawz10 on Apr 11, 2010 2:01 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I dislike that people feel fightmetric is the end all when it suits their opinion.
by sadface on Apr 11, 2010 2:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
82% of people know that you can use statistics to prove anything.
Blackout is always right
by Ubernoober on Apr 11, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
You dislike facts?
It just so happens that Fightmetric always supports the fight I saw, which is an unbiased view of who’s “Doing more” or who is perceived as an asshole or a nice guy or who is an underdog or an overcat.
by jawz10 on Apr 11, 2010 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't mock me
English isn’t my first language, but, do we really say “overcat”?
I'm a lover not a fighter
I had it 3-2 for BJ.
Thought it was a fairly easy fight to score, but judges will be judges.
I specializes in grammar fail.
i'd accept a 3-2 edgar judging across the board.
but 50-45 and 49-46? wow. (incompetency or corruption?)
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions
that’s exactly what i was thinking (not corruption) but come on, that sucks, where does that leave bj?
by cagefightonacid on Apr 11, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I brought up corruption seeing as how lobbyists can easily reach lawmakers these judges are thru the commission they dont make a shit ton of money.
8 to 1 favorite is a huge deal. Put some money in my hand for the 50-45 guy and say if its close push it to Edgar. So dont just blatanly throw it away just if the round is pretty close were you can justify it give it a little push.’
Edgar fought a close fight and here we have an 8 to 1 underdog taking every round whereas he should have only won one.
If you don’ t think is possible or likely you don’t understand the betting world
I think it was incompetency in this case. They probably were swayed by Frankie’s jittery disposition and thought he landed a lot more than he actually did.
I specializes in grammar fail.
by a tommy point on Apr 11, 2010 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats the thing tommy point.
What the judges see is not what we see on tv.
They see guys throwing a bunch of punches staying active they dont see what connects. So I understand how they can get things wrong.
Which is why I dont take the well the only three guys that matter said so so I agree with them approach.
Judging from ringside is flawed. If you Fight Metric every fight with slo mo you would rarely get a wrong decision.
There are lies, damned lies, and then there are statistics.
-Mark Twain, American hero & moustache enthusiast
Blackout is always right
I had it 3 rounds to 2 for Penn (with round 4 being really close), but it could have gone either way. What I find troubling is Doug Crosby’s 50-45. Either it’s just been revealed to me that I know zip about scoring a fight or I was wrong about Crosby being the best judge in the business.
We’re in the same boat my friend, though I realized that at shogun/machida. Judging MMA isn’t my strong suit, the only decisions I feel comfortable scoring are the one GSP’s involved with. And yeah, Crosby migh be the new Cecil, we will have to follow him closely, see if he keep up the sabotage work.
I'm a lover not a fighter
Excellent. I’m very glad I wasn’t seeing things. Immediate rematch please, and hopefully Penn looks a lot better than he did tonight.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
Kenny vs Edgar, and Penn vs Maynard
would be nice and that’s what I would really prefer. but I think they’ll give Maynard his title shot.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:33 AM EDT up reply actions
That decision was bogus to me. Moreso than Machida/Shogun bogus and if Penn isn’t really injured I think they should put him right back in there with him, even if it means having to listen to Rogan verbally fellating Edgar for five rounds again.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
Cause the Machida/Shogun was extremely close, and depending on how you look at things, the scores are actually justifiable.
5-0 and 4-1 Edgar cannot be justified by anyone.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Crazy scores results in a bad decison. It’s an odd situation because the decision itself, while bad, was not outrageous. The scoring , however, is completely outrageous. I thought rounds 1,2 for Penn and a 10-10 for round 4 rsulting in a draw for the fight. After seeing the fightmetric I can see round 3 for Penn too.
Still doesn’t explain Penn’s performance. He wasn’t sticking his tongue out like a monitor lizard on the walkout was he?
He wasn’t sticking his tongue out like a monitor lizard on the walkout was he?
he was.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I like Frankie
But this win was bullshit. You have to beat the champ to win……for God’s sake, they let Machida keep his belt when Rua arguably did beat his ass. Come on now! nd the judge that scored this 50-45? Get him some surgery or something. Ridiculous scores like that are fueling the idea that MMA judging is becoming like boxing judging.
BJ won that fight.
certified warlord
You have to beat the champ to win
This is a boxing mantra.
Ridiculous scores like that are fueling the idea that MMA judging is becoming like boxing judging.
It would seem to me that if you want judges to automatically favor the champ, you want MMA judging to be like boxing judging.
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Apr 11, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
“It would seem to me that if you want judges to automatically favor the champ, you want MMA judging to be like boxing judging.”
Not at all. I would just like the judges to score the fight they are actually WATCHING. I saw what FightMetric saw, which was BJ winning 3-2.
Don’t give the fight to the other guy just to make some awesome gambling odds for whoever.
certified warlord
Time to open up the can of worms:
So…
Is Frankie Edgar on all the P4P lists now?
The guy just beat a top 3 P4P guy who was bigger than him.
Frankie Edgar, #1 P4P.
Blackout is always right
I know you are taking the piss (well at least hopefully you are) but the lightweight rankings are complete fucksees now.
If Melendez steamrolls Aoki (which I think will happen) then the lightweight division has officially taken the peanut boat to monkey town.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
by Sam Cupitt on Apr 11, 2010 2:37 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
T’would explain your Canadian pride…
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
by Sam Cupitt on Apr 11, 2010 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sure the LW devision cluster F&@K we have now would sit alright with me just fine if Edgar really beat Penn in my eyes, I actually like when things open up and a monket wrench gets droped into the mix but not in this manner. This horrible decision just sits totaly wrong with me, and no matter the outcome of Melendez vs Aoki Penn will probably be placed between 3 to 4 in the LW ranking slots but in all truth most of us all know he should still be #1 if not for the 3 terrable judges scoring that fight,.
I hope you feel dirty for saying that.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
FightMetric is cool, but I really don’t think its any better or any more “objective” than any other form of judging. I mean, I’m pretty sure if you used FM’s scoring you could have reasonably given Couture the win over Nogueira. The strength of the punch, the way it affects the other person, the significance of grappling, all these are judgment calls. As I say, they’re interesting to read but I’m not sure it means all that much.
I haven’t seen the fight, but over at Sherdog all three of the called it for B.J penn, with a couple by pretty wide margins, and that means just as much, maybe more.
1. Fightmetric scored it for Nog, not Randy.
2. Sherdog, BE, and almost everyone scored it for BJ. Everyone knows how bad the scores was, but backing that up with the stats is a better way to back up your claims.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 3:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I know they scored it for Randy. But it was close according to their score- 346-304, with a 29-28 score on the scoreboards. Those “stats” make it conceivable to score it for Randy. For a fight where randy was knocked down twice, swept at least twice, mounted at least twice, and nearly finished by submission, that number is way closer than it would seem.
Their stats are just as subjective. It’s also using a different methodology than the judges use, which makes it different but somewhat less directly applicable. Going through it with a fine tooth comb and counting every hit and saying “see? that’s how it should have been scored” doesn’t necessarily work, because that’s not the way fights are scored. It’s an interesting take, but as a verifier I’m not sure. So I’m not sure its a better way to back up one’s claims.
Bullshit, complete bullshit decision.
Got the Summer hatin on me cus I'm hotter than the sun. Got the Spring hatin on me cus I ain't never sprung. Winter hatin on me cus I'm colder than ya'll; and I will never I will never I will never Fall.
by Patrick Tenney on Apr 11, 2010 3:29 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I agree that FightMetric is not always an accurate scoring, but it is the most objective way of judging a fight. It’s based purely off raw, indisputable statistics, which is both a good and bad thing. It does an extremely good job of calculating striking matches, but it loses some credibility when it comes to the ground, especially in regards to the magnitude of ground-and-pound, positional dominance, scrambles, and the severity of submissions.
In this fight, however, all but 5 seconds of the fight was a striking match. I do believe the FightMetric analysis was correct, and I had the same score.
I almost think Bruce Buffer announced the wrong name at the end.
"Brazilian Jiujitsu black belts have a black belt in Brazilian Jiujitsu" - Joe Rogan
by bcpjkell on Apr 11, 2010 3:45 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
fucking bullshit
Bj stalked frankie down the whole time and when frankie came in to exchange he got hit with counter punches all day . Since when do judges give rounds to people who backup the whole time and dont connect on most punches and get countered when they miss
Detroit Red Wings = next Stanley Cup Champs. Howard for Vezna
or people who want to see the right thing happen
Bj outstruck him all day and stuffed 12 takedowns
Detroit Red Wings = next Stanley Cup Champs. Howard for Vezna
the right thing did happen. if bj would have took the fight down like his corner asked it would not have went to the judges. he got out boxed and taken down.
did you see the “takedown” in the second? Frankie did nothing at all with that “takedown”.
by Dropkick434 on Apr 11, 2010 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Those 2 takedowns that resulted in like 5 seconds of ground time should win you both rounds?
Do you know how ridiculous that sounds?
if the stand up is even or close in a round then one guy gets a take down then yes 1 5 sec take down can be the deciding factor. so if you have 2 even rounds standing but one guy gets a take down in those two rounds you have a situation where 1 takedown is the tie breaker.
what about all the takedowns bj stopped?
Pretty sure you get points for that. stuffing 11 takedowns is more impressive then getting 2 takedowns for a combined 5 seconds
Detroit Red Wings = next Stanley Cup Champs. Howard for Vezna
wrong wrong wrong
“bj got taken down twice”
Nyet. Only one of those counted, since BJ wasn’t put down long enough during the first one to even be put in danger.
certified warlord
“A great fighter would finish this guy right now” – BJ Penn
Though I may be paraphrasing that quote, essentially BJ has no one to blame but himself. I can’t imagine how he couldn’t of thought the fight was close. You’re the champ, attempt a takedown, show some will to dominate an opponent that everyone says you should. You are supposed to be better at every aspect of the game than this kid, however BJ looked listless as the fight wore on.
A praise to Edgar for an impressive performance? A question to Penn regarding his conditioning and injury status?
I think the answer lies somewhere in between. If BJ wanted to unquestionably win this fight, he should’ve aggressively fought for it. Cosmetically, Edgar looked more impressive to me. The guy fought his heart out, stuck to his gameplan, and did what I thought he would have to in order to be victorious: Be the faster more unpredictable fighter, threaten takedowns and take it deep.
He did all those things. This decision is not a jawdropper or a robbery. It was a closely contested bout that could’ve gone either way.
Yet to the judges, it was a complete blowout.
That’s what people are complaining about.
by Anton Tabuena on Apr 11, 2010 5:14 AM EDT up reply actions
That sounded like a jab at GSP to me, BJ saying that good fighters go all 5 rounds while great fighters finish. Well guess what BJ? You went all 5 rounds and didn’t even get the W. I bet his mom is preparing a lawsuit as we speak.
You're right, not everything is
But if you think that wasn’t a shot at Georges, you’re nuts. Why else would he say it? “A good champ would go out and win all 5 rounds and win a decision”…hmmmm I wonder what he could be referring to? I’m sure it was just a random example he pulled out of thin air.
i think it was what he was saying in regards to his fight with Diego.
I think they just edited it in there, but I’m pretty certain he was talkin bout the finish on Diego.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
Honestly, I feel like I must have been watching a different fight than most of you people. Edgar was slipping BJ’s punches and tagging him back the entire fight.
The most telling part was when the final bell rang. BJ hung his head low, knowing he was beaten, and Edgar threw his arms up in victory. The guys in the ring knew who won, the judges knew who won, but apparently the internet can’t stand that everybody was saying “Edgar has no path to victory, BJ Penn has the best boxing in MMA” and then had to watch BJ Penn get outboxed for 5 rounds.
Hell, even his corner knew he was getting outboxed when they told him “start taking him down, BJ!” between rounds.
BJ was more tired
but that doesn’t mean Frankie won.. I didn’t see too many good shots from Frankie… his movement was good, but I though through the first three rounds he was feinting too much without capitalizing on BJ’s reactions, outside of a few good leg kicks… he didn’t land very well imo until the last few rounds… one of which I thought he won… He moved a lot laterally, mixed it up, but never really hit BJ solidly… BJ landed a lot of clean counters, and some stiff jabs… He didn’t look as sharp as he has lately, but I don’t think that should matter when scoring a fight. IMO he landed the better shots, and apparently stats show he did so more often…
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
by Loot on Apr 11, 2010 5:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Frankie did land some pretty good shots on BJ but almost every time Frankie engaged he would either eat a stiff jab or a left hook.
by bigislandboi808 on Apr 11, 2010 5:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I think you were watching a different fight.
All Edgar did was move in and out, he landed very rarely while BJ hit him with one or two counter shots nearly everytime he did.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
Freakin exactly.
BJ’s punches actually landed. Even when a few of Frankie’s strikes did land, they barely swayed BJ.
This was an ok performance by Frankie, and I could see judges making a bad decision and giving him a 48-47 victory, but 50-45 is ridiculous bullshit.
Sorry, but Edgar looked like he was shadow boxing around the ring.
All that said, BJ is the far superior fighter, but I question his game plan and execution for this fight. Despite everything he said, I think BJ took the fight lightly and was looking past it. This seems to happen every time there is serious talk about him fighting at WW. Damn BJ, forget 170 and just dominate the LW’s like you should be doing.
And on another note, F**K Anderson Silva. I buy everything the UFC or major promtion does on PPV, but I have no interest in watching him fight ever again. Dude is a disgrace to the sport, his opponents and the fans. You come out acting like a clown and then make excuses like ring rust. At least just say, how superior you are and you felt like making everyone look like fools.
Amazing.
Let’s take the first round for example (or the 2nd, same thing). How can you give the challenger points for scoring less than the champion ?
If you have healthy eyes you clearly saw that almost everytime Edgar engaged he was eating a left hook, I might be wrong but I though BJ landed like twice more in the first 2/3 rounds. It’s pretty logical that the challenger have to do more than that to win the belt, isn’t it ?
And I m not even in the “To become the champion you have to beat the champion” mode.
but dude, FE landed a punch in the first, therefore he wins the round. It’s all ball bearings these days.
by BJJDenver on Apr 11, 2010 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You should probably never score a fight in your head again.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 11, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
lol that hurt a little bit.
Not that I condone facism or any ism for that matter. Isms are in my opinion, not good. A person shouldn't believe in an ism, he should believe in himself.
I quote John Lennon, "I don't believe in Beatles, I just believe in me". Good point there, after all he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. Wouldn't change the fact I have to bum rides off of people.
He got robbed
I was watching last night with a bunch of casuel fans, and they thought Frankie was doing way more than he was. I said to them that he is not doing anything just fainting and running around everytime he threw he was missing 3 out of five punches. Bj on the other hand was way more accurate. Regardless we were all shocked the frank won. Nobody gave it to him. And all my friends were bj haters.
by J smooth 420 on Apr 11, 2010 9:15 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I was a case just like Jordan Breen and TJ DeSantons said on beatdown after the bell where a fighter being Frankie Edgar looked like they were doing more then the actual winner and being more aggresive so the judges thought he was winning the fight. Where in truth BJ was getting the better of the exchanges 90% of the time and wining the fight playing the counter striking game.
AS for why people are not up in arms for this horrible decison as they are for others is becasue of the commenting Rogan and Goldberg fooled alot of the audience into thinking FRankie Edag was actually winning the fight. They made it sound like Edgar was getting the better of almost all the exchanges and just becasue Frankie had survived as long as he did that he must be winning the fight becasue BJ should of put him away buy now. I just like J Breen and TJ thought the commenting buy bolth Rogan and Goldberg were horribly one sidded for Edgar. Not to mention Frankies corner did the old corner EYYYYYY YEll every time Frankie landed a shot. Even if more then half of those times BJ landed a better shot on the counter so he must be winning ?
No, the reason people aren’t up in arms is because BJ is a polarizing fighter. 45% of fans love him, 45% hate him, and 10% are neutral. If this happened to GSP most of Sherdog and all of Canada would be going batshit insane.
Those who love him think it was a robbery.
Those who hate him think the judges were spot on.
The neutrals know BJ won despite not being at his best.
I agree about if this happened to GSP
people would be going insane.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
!00% correct I did not even think about that, That is a huge Reason Penn is one of those fighters 99% of the fans eather love or hate. I myself really don’t like Penn but I know a bad decision when I see one. And no one more then would love to See Edgar go out there and beat Penn and take the belt but liek Mike Fagon says above not like this it just does not feel right at all Edgar having the belt on a horrible decision like this.
BJ Should have won, but...
I had it 48-47 for BJ and my two friends watching had it 49-46 for BJ. But, rounds 3 & 4 were close. If the scores across the board were 48-47 Edgar, I would disagree with it, but not think anything too negative about the decision.
After saying all this though, BJ was obviously not in shape for this fight and did not have a strategy to win. He has fallen in love with his stand up, when he should have tried to take Edgar down, where he would have dominated. Under Pride judging, BJ would have lost the fight and hearing BJ’s post fight interview, I think he agrees with this.
I give BJ credit
he was classy post-fight in the loss and hope he stays that way even as his island bros get him all riled up. His judging criteria for who won his first first with GSP was whose face was the most messed up. For all those that think Edgar never landed, look at replays of Edgar vs. BJs face at the end – no contest and BJ seems to acknowledge it during the judgement.
The Sacramento Kings - our guys have big mouthpieces.
by bringbackbuddytrees on Apr 11, 2010 12:08 PM EDT reply actions
Huh. Just watched it. 49-46 BJ. Could barely see it 48-47 Frankie. That’s a tough one for BJ.
BJ just looks all too casual though. His posture is very relaxed (looks almost defeated) and Frankie Edgar looks frenetic and amped up. If you didn’t realise that BJ Penn was usually scoring cleaner in those exchanges and were just going by demeanour, you could assume its 50-45, but that’s still bad judging.
Beating the Champ
I understand you have to beat the champ to win, BUT BJ just cant show up and expect to keep the title. Even BJ’s corner at the end of the 3rd round were saying “you have to take him down”. In their eyes they must have been seeing what the judges were seeing. Corner must be pissed too. Edgar was impressive but there is NO WAY that was a 50-45 fight. Anyone know if BJ trained with Marinovich for this fight? Didnt look in shape.
DONT LIKE THE JUDGING, DONT LET IT GO THE FULL 5.
Fightmetric seems pretty amateurish and terrible in general. I have to trust compustrike a little more. Compustrike had Edgar outstriking Penn by a slightly margin (although I can’t access the site now).
Apparently the striking margin was 90 to 81, which I can believe although I’d like to see the breakdown.
by The Darkness on Apr 11, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, you’re wrong.
Compustrike DOES NOT go back and replay fights and use slo-motion technology to count strikes. Rami actually does. That’s why FightMetric is more accurate in my opinion. Compustrike is on the fly and tabulates immediately, relying on a person who is basically just as informed as the judges.
The problem in this fight is the action, combinations, and the viewpoint of the judges along with speed. All of those factors together make it VERY, VERY hard for the judges to correctly diagnose how this fight went in terms of lands.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Apr 11, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry, I completely disagree but don’t have time to argue this point — must work. (I find it pretty shady that you don’t mention that you’re a “2009-10 FightMetric Fellowship Cohort”. You really should state your biases up front.)
by The Darkness on Apr 11, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You disagree that FightMetric looks at fights in slo-mo to tabulate data? ‘Cause it’s not really an opinion.
Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com
it is way harder to score than the machida shogun fight in my opinion
i think edgar won 3-2
even frankie himself disagreed with the 50-45
49-46? meh … maybe but 50-45 is ridonkulous
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I had Bj winning the fight in my score card
I had 1st 2nd and a close 5th to Bj and i was shocked when bruce buffer announced frankie the winner but it wasnt unbelievable. Frankie did implement his gameplan, and got Bj tired but i think Bj landed the better punches but frankie did land some good shots of his own. Frankie did get 2 takedowns but he didnt really capitalize on them. Whats really annoying to me is when i was watching the Lyoto vs Shogun fight, i had the fight for Shogun but when Lyoto won, everyone used the excuse with the “you cant win by decision”. The entire notion of having to beat the champion decisively is completely useless but none the less, we get to see the rematch which is the only redeeming factor. And now, after frankie winning, the lightweight division now is finally interesting. Lets see Bj Penn vs Gray Maynard and Frankie Edgar vs Kenny Florian!
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