Are Athletic Commissions Failing to Protect Fighters?
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 12:04 PM EST
in MMA News
179 comments
Athletic commissions could be deemed the unsung heroes of combat sports in that their sole purpose is to oversee combat sports and the safety of its fighters. It's their job to provide pre-fight medical testing, drug and steroid testing, sanctioning of any and all events within the state, and protect fighters. Unfortunately, we hear far too many stories about athletic commissions failing in their own judgment and not providing decisions that promote what their purpose actually is -- to protect fighters.
Zach Arnold over at FightOpinion makes the case that the Ohio State Athletic Commission made the wrong call in regards to sanctioning the Jens Pulver vs. Javier Vazquez bout at WEC 47 due to Pulver's lengthy streak of losses:
The truth is that Jens Pulver likely shouldn’t have been sanctioned to fight by the Ohio Athletic Commission.
The commission has taken some heat recently for not sanctioning a fight between Wes Sims and Tim Sylvia due to what they perceived as a competitive imbalance and I think it was the right call. Commissions have a tough job to do in terms of approving who can fight and who can’t fight. There are always situations where licensing certain fighters can be a gray area. Pulver was one of those fighters. Unfortunately, he has been dismantled repeatedly over his last few fights. It was sad that his quick submission of Cub Swanson wasn’t the final swan song. It seems like eons ago when that fight took place.
Arnold goes on to talk about the greedy practices of the athletic commissions, specifically targeting Nevada State Athletic Commission director Keith Kizer. He brings up the return of Tito Ortiz as a perfect example of the problems plaguing the approval process in Nevada:
When I alluded to promoters having a lot of power in booking fights that normally shouldn’t be booked, Tito Ortiz vs. Forrest Griffin was the perfect example. Ortiz facing a Top 5 Light Heavyweight in his return match? Nevada has become the rubber stamp athletic commission for promoters under Kizer’s tenure. The fight between Ortiz and Griffin wasn’t a blow out because we found out later that Griffin was fighting with a broken foot. If athletic commissions are supposedly about the safety of the fighters, then why are guys like Griffin able to make it into the cage with broken bones? It’s inexcusable. If Mark Coleman gets cut by UFC a few days after his fight due to concern that he might die in the cage, why did Nevada allow him to get licensed in the first place? Inexcusable.
In my mind, this is a very valid point that should have been addressed. And it hits at my own sentiments in the follow-up of the fight. In fact, I actually emailed Keith Kizer following the bout in regards to Forrest Griffin admitting he had a broken foot and Tito Ortiz talking about having cracked skull during post-fight interviews.
Pre-fight procedures only include a medical questionnaire, a physical exam by a doctor at weigh-in, and scans are only done in licensing procedures, not pre-fight. Therefore, it isn't unfathomable that many fighters get past these practices and fight with injuries that could ultimately be detrimental to their health.
That behavior is only a supporting argument to a bigger problem. Commissions are sanctioning fights that probably shouldn't happen. As mentioned in the article, Sylvia vs. Sims wasn't sanctioned due to a competitive imbalance, and while I don't think Pulver vs. Vazquez is a supportive argument as Pulver did lose two of the four fights to one of the best 145 pounders in Urijah Faber and a surging prospect in Josh Grispi -- it doesn't change the fact that commissions have a serious conflict of interest in terms of protecting fighters and making money.
Imagine if Alistair Overeem vs. Mark Coleman was booked in Nevada. The uproar would be rather significant in comparison to most fights, but MMA fans aren't really up in arms about approval of fights because there hasn't been a true precedence set by commissions as to what is deemed absurd. Sadly, that fight probably gets sanctioned.
What's the best course of action? Firmer restrictions? Should athletic commission decision-making bodies become separate entities? A separation of powers might actually hinder the sport if the approval group is too restrictive, but anything that would stop older fighters from becoming punch-drunk vegetables is okay in my book.
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All your points are valid, except the example of Jens. The AC’s job is to protect fighters. Was Jens in danger? Not more then normal. With the amount of time Jens has been fighting he should have a long leash on fights. Its certainly a judgement call on if you think a fighter is in danger because of a mismatch. I really don’t think Jens was in danger. James Toney might be a big test for this. He is making his MMA debut and people with cry foul if he fights a Randy Couture. But he is also a combat sport vet and if he fights a guy making his debut, he may kill them. It’s not the AC’s job to police match making beyond assuring that an unusual amount of danger doesn’t exist.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
As mentioned in the article, Sylvia vs. Sims wasn’t sanctioned due to a competitive imbalance, and while I don’t think Pulver vs. Vazquez is a supportive argument as Pulver did lose two of the four fights to one of the best 145 pounders in Urijah Faber and a surging prospect in Josh Grispi — it doesn’t change the fact that commissions have a serious conflict of interest in terms of protecting fighters and making money.
Actually, I don’t think the example of Jens is valid either.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
What would you list as valid examples? Maybe you can give us your matches at which the line is drawen? Sylvia vs. Sims, I thought should be allowed. I think Sims experience gives him a longer leash and the fact that they have fought before and Sims has other high level fights. Unless they have info I don’t know about, like Sims not training then I don’t see a reason. Its all about preventing this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9r2GAAaiKs
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Travis Fulton vs. Jeremy Bullock is one off the top of my head. Any fight that Shannon Ritch takes at this point in his career. Mark Coleman versus anyone that’s a top five fighter at Light Heavyweight.
To be perfectly honest, there needs to be some sort of precedence. Also, Toney vs. Couture… yeah, I’m not on the bandwagon that it should be sanctioned. Sure, Toney has knockout power, but I could see that fight being very bad for him in terms of one Greco clinch and a world of hurt on the floor.
Shouldn’t it be the commission’s perogative to get these guys some experience before putting themselves in with a guy who is top 15 in the world at LHW? I think it should.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
How would you feel about me fighting James Toney is what would be out MMA debuts? If you don’t like me, you will feel great about it. I think seasoned vets, assuming they pass medical (and that is an issue that needs addressing) should really be able to fight anyone. Its the other end of the spectum I have an issue with. And certainly record is not everything, but they need some way to judge proficiency.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Depends on your training and physical shape. If you are some flabby out of shape bum off the street who hasn’t trained a day in his life, I’d nix the encounter. If you had a good amateur record with documented training and a team, I’d approve it.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed. Javier was coming off two losses and is not a young fighter. Jens had lost more, but did he get hurt? Was he completely outclassed?
Tito/Forrest? Was it a blow-out? Tito looked pretty damn good early on.
Zach is full of crap. He does make some good points, but spends waaaay too much time and energy looking to scandals.
agreed
Also, how bout better refing. Then we don’t have to worry about anything but all this bullshit. Dude goes down ref stops it. The end.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 10:37 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
That precedent sucks
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
Jens can still hold his own with anyone in the world.
He went 5 tough rounds w/ Faber. He’s not so far over the hill that he needs protection from the commission either. Given Tim Sylvia’s lack luster performances I don’t think a fight with Wes Sims is out of order either. Sims can hold his own.
Hell, If you don’t want the commission to sanction fights that aren’t going to be competitive I guess GSP and Anderson Silva and even BJ Penn shouldn’t really have anyone left to fight in their weight classes.
I do have a problem with the whole Ttio “I fought w/ a cracked skull” comment, but is the commission going to give them full body xrays before every fight?
I simply believe that in a free country you should be able to do what you want to do. I wouldn’t want someone who is fighting their 2nd fight and OBVIOUSLY not qualified to be in there with a top 10 guy, but every fighter listed in this article has multiple fights on the big shows vs tough guys. There is no reason to cancel these bouts if the fighters agree to it.
The broader questions and theme I agree with. But Zach Arnold using Pulver vs Vasquez as the example? Come on. I wasn’t interested in seeing Pulver get back in there, but this was a relatively well-matched fight. Both guys were coming off of multiple losses, and Pulver has been in there against higher level competition.
If a guy loses 4 fights in a row should he not be sanctioned to fight anywhere, against anyone?
As for the broader safety concerns about fighting, I agree 100% that we should always be looking for ways to make the sport safer. The Pulver/Vasquez fight is just a poor example.
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I’m conflicted on this. On the one hand I do believe that commissions like Ohio are looking out for the best interests of the fighter. On the other hand I also thing commissions shouldn’t be solely responsible for this. There has to be some onus put on promotions for being responsible in their match making. And their needs to be some responsibility put on the fighters as grown men to disclose all their injuries.
I appreciate that a lot of these guys are just scrapping by and need the money but at what point did we start treating them like children and not putting any expectation of full disclosure on the fighter?
Promotions will never be responsible. That’s a blatant conflict of interest, and they’ll look out for #1… their pocketbooks.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
But couldn’t the commissions enforce some kind of penalty on the promoter when they reject a match? Couldn’t they hit the promotion in their pocketbook?
That’s a potential solution to what I said, yeah.
Some sort of rule basically saying… don’t submit ridiculous match-ups. Problem is that the UFC could go to another state and get it approved. Commissions aren’t on the same page.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
Forget another state, what about when they go to different countries and essentially act as their own regulatory body?
My other question is, could we not apply a penalties to fighters as well, those who don’t disclose all prefight injuries to the best of their knowledge? Now I realize there is some gray area there given that fighters suffer any number of bumps and bruises through the course of training, but surely something like a broken foot, the fighter has an obligation to disclose that prefight?
Kizer told me that penalties can be enforced if fighters lie about injuries on pre-fight questionnaires. But I’m assuming that didn’t happen in the case of Griffin-Ortiz. It may have thouh.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
That’s good to know. I think fighters need to be held just as accountable here given that they are grown men. Like I said, I appreciate that there are a lot of guys scrapping by who feel they need to fight with a busted hand or cracked skull but at some point they need to be held responsible for their own well being.
Another thing that would be nice is more transparency in when and how these fines are handed down. It would reassure the viewing public that the ACs are doing their job and it would consistently remind other fighters of the penalties for not properly disclosing their health issues to the commissions.
That's a fine line though.
Most of these guys don’t have insurance. They need to fight to pay the medical bills for injuries incurred during training. They also go into debt during training. Their own well being involves a few calculated risks. Do you hope that you get another fight as soon as you are healed to pay off the camp, or go like Pat Barry with no gas in your car and only rice with ketchup for dinner? Sometimes it’s better for their “well-being” to fight on some middling injuries. Very tough call to make.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
It’s the difference between fighting with some bumps and bruises to fighting with a cracked skull that needs to be addressed. It can be a fine line but that line needs to be drawn.
Thanks. thats exactly what I'm trying to say.
It’s a very fine and very subjective line. Mike Brown says that a knee from Thiago Alves in training messed him up and threw him off for the Aldo fight. Is it safe to let a guy into the cage with a buzzsaw like Aldo when he’s been hurt enough to affect his performance, even if he is the #1 in his division? Is it ok for Tito to fight with his bad back, assuming his skull was ok? If Sherk’s knees are gone and he can’t use the lighting quick and powerful shot that made him competitive in the past, is it safe to put him in against any high end competition, even though he’s only lost to top p4p fighters and Frankie Edgar?
I’d answer yes to all of the above, Tito being the possible exception because he can afford to wait and live off Punishment, his store in Vegas, and Jenna’s considerable income. Brown and Sherk live fight to fight. Others might disagree with me. It’s a tough distinction to make.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Yeah this is a great point. Fighters aren’t, and can’t be, objective about this. It’s not about protecting one fighter from injury, it’s about protecting the sport’s integrity.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 10, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
yeah!!
Crazy matches like Vitor vs. Randy I, or a former champ on a win streak vs. Someone with one pro fight like Mir vs. Brock.
Most injuries happen in training anyway. So lets not let people train! LOL
I think if its two adults they should be allowed to do what ever they want.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 10:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
no. a politician with a background in boxing led to that.
I like no gloves fighting. Gives grapplers the edge. I love jiu jitsu!!! Funny thing is gloves make the sport more dangerous Not less. Its just bloodier with no gloves, but less head trauma. Also people wouldnt punch as much . Especially with hard loopin punches for fear of broken hands .Grapplers would run shit again if they didn’t have to wear oven mitts.(not that they don’t do well now)IMHO
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 11:26 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
like what?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 11:59 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Like every bit of it maybe?
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
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by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 9, 2010 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
lol
People cut their fingers off in Kali training all the time. Should that be illegal?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 11:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Try getting an AC to sanction a Kali match
"All I guarantee is violence" - Wand
The fighters have to be responsible. THEY are making the decision to fight
No one is forcing anyone to do anything here. These are grown men and women who go into a fight with their eyes wide open. That’s the fuckin’ problem in the world today, everyone wants to blame someone for something. Someone must be held LIABLE when shit goes wrong.
Maybe they should look at #1, that’s where the bulk of the responsibility lies, just as it should be.
People who want to fight will fight
If they want to fight they will fight they will lie and say I have zero injuries and no pain. Especially those who fight for a living
"So I put 2 and 2 together and decided that your pissing me off" "Here. Its a fruit roll up. I was gonna make you a casserole for your loss but uh... I didnt"
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by II SMASH II on Mar 9, 2010 10:31 AM EST via mobile reply actions
So let me get this straight. Tito Ortiz, at +133 on the most generous betting line (according to bestfightodds.com) shouldn’t have been allowed to fight Forrest Griffin? Jesus, what short memories we had. THREE Bloody Elbow staff members picked Tito Ortiz. Including the writer of this blog post. By this logic, Chael-Nate, Dragon-Shogun, Shogun-Griffin, Urijah-Mike Brown, Fedor-Rogers, Brock-Mir I and about 1000 other fights should have been disallowed.
This whole article that’s quoted above, is like, batshit crazy. I agree about guy’s going in there with broken bones. But you want bigger, more powerful commissions, it’ll come with its own set of problems. You really, really don’t want them making more arbitrary decisions. In the end Forrest came out OK.
I guess Thiago Silva should have been withdrawn from UFC 108, too, but then everybody would have been REALLY pissed off once again at the athletic commissions.
I really think this is trying to stir up controversy where there shouldn’t be any.
by TLow on Mar 9, 2010 10:32 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
That’s really not the problem I have with the Ortiz-Griffin fight. The problem I have is that both men admitted to injuries BEFORE the fight during the post-fight interviews. Under the commission rules, NOBODY is allowed to fight injured like that… let alone with a cracked skull.
There should be controversy. Sure, these guys can do what they want… but trying to circumvent doctors so they don’t know about your cracked skull by telling them everything is A-OK is bullshit. If Ortiz dies in that cage, the AC gets a load of shit for not checking him out thoroughly. It’s a cost problem obviously, but it’s ridiculous that these guys say they came in with a cracked skull and get away with it. Fighters aren’t helping the AC’s, and AC’s aren’t helping the fighters.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Was it ever confirmed that Tito did actually fight with a “cracked skull”? Or are we just taking his word for it.
A skull fracture, unless coupled with a huge open wound, can really only be diagnosed by a CT scan. In order to have a CT done, you need to see a doctor. If he was diagnosed with a skull fx., then that would be in his charts which are subsequently checked by the AC.
by WestbergIDFC on Mar 9, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
I think the point is, that responsibility falls on both the fighter and the commission in this case because if Tito is crying that he had a cracked skull then one of two things is true, Tito is a liar in which case the NSAC should have made some statement pointing out that they did their due diligence, or Tito did have a cracked skull and Kizer and co really dropped the ball in letting him fight.
Well, the commissions don’t do scans for pre-fight procedures unless they are being re-licensed. Ortiz could have simply never told them about it and moved forward.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
lmao @ cracked skull
Yeah…. cracked skull with no bruising. Of course his skull was cracked…..Forrest probably never had his foot checked until after the fight. Besides it should be up to the fighters if they wanna fight one handed. At the end of the day its their life and their dream. We are just lucky they share it with us. AC should worry about weight,make sure there are no cooties, and there is good refing. Besides that let them sort it out in the ring. Who are u to take away someones dream cause you don’t think they are good enough?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 10:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Besides it should be up to the fighters if they wanna fight one handed.
No, no it shouldn’t.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:52 AM EST up reply actions
why bud?
Uriah took a champ to a decision with two broken hands. I just don’t think its fair for us to decide what people are allowed to do with their own bodies. Why do you? (Not trying to be.a jerk. I want to know)
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 11:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because in some case down the road, someone will head into the cage with a pre-existing problem that could be life threatening. If that person dies in the cage, sure… a lot of people will say… that’s his fault, but if it is pre-existing and known — someone needs to stop those things from happening.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
i usally agree with you but..
Not this time. If we know some has a head injury that’s one thing but, the “competitive match” thing is crazy.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 11:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
There are fighters, well known fighters, with severe head injuries who still fight
It’s unsafe, but they get away with it somehow. I’m with Leland. There needs to be better regulation and I wish there was a way to make promotions more responsible.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Competitive match thing?
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
Someone deciding who is gonna win before the fight. Its just not fair to discount someone like that. Haven’t you seen Rocky?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 12:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i would be pissed !! what has he done to get a title shot?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 12:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Sound of buzzer
Urijah didn’t go into the cage with broken hands – big difference.
certified warlord
it should be pointed out
People should not have jurisdiction over another’s body.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 12:24 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Do you really want the sport to go back to the dark ages? Cause that’s exactly what would happen if we start getting deaths and serious injuries every other weekend because they go in to fight with known serious medical conditions.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
i am ok with a prefight physical ct scan and all.
I just don’t like peoples liberties being stripped in general. I will shut up now.
P.s. vale tudo rocks. Most fighters feel the same way.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 1:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You dont have a right to compete in a sport.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
actually
Until that right is stripped away you do. I will always have the right to play basketball. I will not ever have the right to play in the NBA. Its their league. However I will be allowed to shoot hoops forever. Unless some says its illegal because they think its too dangerous.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 1:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Ok, well I can go to your house and we can fight. MMA maybe. But you have to be licensed to compete in pro MMA. And a license is not a right. If you are not well enough to fight, they won’t let you.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
i am for being physically cleared to fight. i also see why these guys would fib. its their body.
In some states any mma match is illegal bud. How messed up is that?
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 2:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
It’s a dangerous sport. As dangerous as football, but its also misunderstood. It’s not messed up. If its not regulated, then thats up to each state, but my opinion is that there is no reason to not regulate it.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
the funniest part about it would be..
If the people saying basketball is illeagal because of the danger had never played the game. Like they did with “dark age mma”.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 2:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The problem is that they don’t do pre-fight CT scans unless being re-licensed. All they ask is questions to the fighters, to which they can lie out their asses, fight, then possibly be seriously hurt.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions
Because the other fighter could be held responsible for killing him. The measures are to prevent those things.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
lol
Its total legal to kill in the ring. Ask boom boom Mancini. That man is a Killer.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 2:53 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Will you be charged with murder? no, but that does not mean it is legal.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
you cant be charged with anything nor sued civilly.
Sued with any success anyway.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 3:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
not saying i want that
Just saying there will be no one held responsible.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 3:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Why can't the responsibility lie with the fighters?
When a fighter steps into the cage, he knows what might happen. He could die, he could kill someone through the nature of the sport. This is things fighters have to come to grips with before stepping into the cage.
THEY alone are ultimately responsible.
I’m ok with certain safe guards, but the decision to fight or not should be left up to the fighters.
i think the ct scan should be offered before every pro bout paid by the promoter.
So at least the fighter is making an informed decision.
I do see what you saying Leland. I don’t quite agree but I see what your saying.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 2:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
uhhhh you're not your
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 2:55 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
lol you and your buzzer
Yes but he fought 4 rds that way.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 12:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The problem then isn’t the athletic commissions, it’s the fighters that know they’re injured and they fight anyway. I think that Tito’s example is BS though because he was just trying to come up with excuses. Anyone can see that.
And I know that my opinion isn’t the popular one, but I’m more a fan of individual right to choose then collective sanctioning and regulating. Let the fighters decide what’s best for them and let them live with the outcome of their choice. More commission involvement means a dilution of the sport. NBA basketball is a really good example of a sport that pales in comparison to what it once was.
NHL hockey trying to ban fighting is another example of commissions diluting a game. Fighting was a method for the players to regulate the game. Any cheapshots that are dangerous were always reckoned with by some bruising hulk professional fighter. No one touched Gretsky without having to answer to McSorely. Now that they’re getting rid of fights, they’re green-lighting the cheap shots that are truly dangerous and cause real injuries.
And I know that my opinion isn’t the popular one, but I’m more a fan of individual right to choose then collective sanctioning and regulating. Let the fighters decide what’s best for them and let them live with the outcome of their choice. More commission involvement means a dilution of the sport. NBA basketball is a really good example of a sport that pales in comparison to what it once was.
I’m not in agreement. Some fighters will do anything, they don’t care. The avoidance of loss of life is the goal here, fighter safety is the goal. Letting some guy go in, despite being a moron, and fight with… an aneurysm that’s about to explode isn’t going to work.
NHL hockey trying to ban fighting is another example of commissions diluting a game. Fighting was a method for the players to regulate the game. Any cheapshots that are dangerous were always reckoned with by some bruising hulk professional fighter. No one touched Gretsky without having to answer to McSorely. Now that they’re getting rid of fights, they’re green-lighting the cheap shots that are truly dangerous and cause real injuries.
Actually, plenty of people blasted Gretzky, but he was so unassuming and allowed players to ride him to the boards that eventually defensemen would give up and he’d suddenly find a way to score. That’s why Wayne Gretzky will forever be the greatest hockey player of all-time. Even if someone breaks his records, he put up those numbers in an era in which “interference” wasn’t even a thought.
And fighting in hockey (I played for 12 years) is flat out stupid, to be honest. Sure, it’s entertainment… but the level of fighting you can do on skates and with jersey pulling almost makes it boring to watch at times.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
I remember Gretsky being really good at being able to avoid contact. Of course Gretsky was blasted every so often, but the guy was a magician at avoiding legal hits. But there was a target on his back though and it was pretty commonly known amongst most of my social circle that Mcsorely was there to reckon for any cheap shots on Gretsky (or anyone trying to go out of their way to get him). I’m not saying you’re wrong I’m just talking from experience growing up and watching/idolizing him. I also remember most scoring type players go on record saying they preferred to have fighting in the game because it discouraged the cheap shots which create the really serious injuries. Again I could be wrong. I never played Ice hockey, only street hockey, so take me with a grain of salt.
It also seemed fairly obvious that the crackdown on fighting came just as the NHL was trying to expand to the lucrative US markets. I have a hard time seeing it as a player safety thing when so many high profile players claimed it made the game safer.
But my bottom line is, if someone’s a moron and wants to make a bad decision, I don’t believe that it is anyone else’s decision to tell him no. If the promotion doesn’t want him to fight that’s another story, but I think that it should be between the promotion and the fighter. It comes down to personal rights IMO. Things get watered down otherwise.
That’s a real revisionist history of what’s happening in hockey in regards to fighting. 25 years ago people didn’t have as much information about things like getting punched in the head repeatedly by bare fists and the effects of it. The call to ban fighting has stemmed from a number of on ice incidents at all levels of the game that saw individuals severely hurt, their careers ended and their quality of life severely compromised.
I agree that there needs to be personal responsibility, that said there also needs to be a system of checks and balances to ensure that the people fighting are being responsible. The idea that fighters should be able to do what they want is a cop out for those looking to push this sport back to the dark ages.
I can think of far worse things I’ve seen in hockey that are worse than fighting. Sticks to noggins for one, I remember Enrico Ciccone clotheslining a guy going full speed right after he got released from the penalty box way back in the 90’s.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t disagree I’m just pointing to the reasons why fighting is being pushed from the game. I live in Toronto and have a cousin who is a top prospect in the OHL (Tyler Toffoli, watch for him in the draft this year :D) and I watch a lot of junior hockey. There have been so many disturbing on ice incidents the past couple years that it really turns my stomach and I fear for the future of the game if it’s carried over into the NHL.
Good ol’ OHL. We actually have the 2000-2001 South Division MVP living down here… Kevin Tompkins. Got called up to the Peoria Riverman, didn’t make it, and just sort of washed out.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions
I was at the game where McSorely whacked Brashear. Ironically, it was because Brashear didn’t want to fight McSorely a second time (he cleaned his clock the first).
Again, I’m not saying there’s a right or a wrong, there’s just two ways of looking at it, both with negatives and positives, I prefer the way that respects individual choice.
Again thank you Dooda, I don’t know if your a Libertarian or small government guy but at least someone is at least somewhat near my position.
I’m not sure what I am to be honest. I’m a Canadian living in the states for the last 2.5 years and I got to say, limited government has become really appealing to me, and seems like the only rational way to go. Of course we can learn that the easy way and simply abide the constitution, or the hard way and run the country into the ground. But yes, it’s nice to see others that are proponents of liberty and limited government.
have you ever had your hands wrapped up?
Like a boxer’s wrap.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 12:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This will always be the problem. The ac wants fights to happen. And fighters want to fight. They go hand in hand because you can’t have one without the other. Its like the guy who shows up to work sick as hell but works because it has to be done otherwise he doesn’t get paid
"So I put 2 and 2 together and decided that your pissing me off" "Here. Its a fruit roll up. I was gonna make you a casserole for your loss but uh... I didnt"
"So its sorta like that movie the predator, except for hunting people hes takin a crap" - Carl from ATHF
by II SMASH II on Mar 9, 2010 10:51 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
As a few people have pointed out, there’s really no reason to believe Tito had a cracked skull.
People rarely come into the ring fully healthy. Forrest also came in with a bad shoulder against Shogun Rua,and put on the performance of his career. Urijah Faber fought on with two broken hands, Couture stopped Gonzaga with a broken arm.
Why should there be controversy? Over Ortiz-Griffin II?
You’ll never get perfection out of this or full safety for guys who are trying to batter the other guy for a living. You want AC’s to squeeze harder, fine, but I’m saying you’ll end up with a lot of unwanted side effects. They start erring on the safe side, and a whole bunch of fights, including main events start getting cancelled for minor injuries or for being “non-competitive” and you’ll piss off a lot of people. Or imagine it this way- if you’d just spent 250$ on a ticket for UFC 106, knew Forrest wanted to fight with a “broken foot” (it didn’t seem to slow him down much, and “broken” is pretty vague)) but the AC pulled him out, how happy do you think you’d be with your Rumble-Kos $250 main event? If you think people are bitching now, just wait and see then…
The thing that disturbs me is that I think there’s a pretty decent balance here, and then there’s something like “Are athletic commisions failing to protect fighters?” put forward on some pretty bad arguments, and some pretty shady evidence.
So what if people are bitching… it’s safety first. That’s the whole purpose of the athletic commission. Sure, I’d be bummed, but I see the point of it.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
Absolutely, safety is important. But I’m just saying its very easy to take an incredibly self-righteous stance like Zach Woods did, and talk about how its so “inexcusable.” It’s a little more tricky to put it in context. It’s a spectator sport. And as someone pointed out below, athletes need the money.
I agree safety is important. But so is actually evaluating performance and treating it with a level-head. The piece above was a hack job, plain and simple, without much in the way of valid points to back it up. To accuse Keith Kizer of “greed,” for among other things, letting two former LHW champions in their 30s fight each other (not to mention the ridiculous Jens Pulver argument) is grossly unfair. The only other point is that FG had some sort of foot injury before the fight.
All I’m saying is you have to look at everything else, too. It’s so easy to just call for “safety” blindly, and attack people, but more difficult to actually think it through.
And there’s nothing in the above article (i read it) that justifies any controversy,or the cheap shot against ACs.
Actually, it was Zach Arnold.
I do agree with your assessment. I agree that Arnold’s stance is definitely over the top, but I think the one valid point is that of medically clearing fighters and having more in the way of checking these guys out to make sure they aren’t heading into a cage with something in the head not right.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
And...
Sure, Pulver-Vazquez is a bad argument in my mind, but I do believe that the whole lying about injuries and trying to fight past them is a valid issue to investigate.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
It can’t be restated enough how terrible an example Jens is. It’s kind of mind boggling actually. Here’s a fighter that is only 34 (relatively young, and not shot in a way other guys are: he’s just losing to better fighters) who was once world champion, and with a losing streak that consisted of mostly submissions against top level fighters.
If athletic commissions failing to protect fighters is an issue, surely we’ve got better examples than Pulver/Vazquez to validate it? The Ortiz/Griffin information is interesting, but a) the injuries clearly weren’t bad enough to seriously hinder either fighter and b) who the hell actually believes Tito Ortiz had a cracked skull in that fight besides Tito himself (?), and disregarding the fact that not even a refrigerator dropped from the top of the empire state building landing directly on his face could produce a crack.
Obviously a certain degree of regulation should be present, but this isn’t boxing where the consequences of mismatching can prove to be fatal. MMA by nature is insulated from the types of injuries that would require a more active, pertinent role by athletic commissions.
My main concern with veteran fighters is brain trauma.
I don’t like competitive mismatches but they happen all the time. If you look at regional shows with hot prospects, one guy can be 5-0 fighting a guy with an 0-2 record. The fighters that have been knocked out consecutively in fights need to be required to have medical work done before being licensed to fight again. Maybe they already do this, but I highly doubt they’ve suspended anyone for 6-12+ months to recover from a brain injury.
Two knockouts to require medical screening?
Just to be clear, I got a couple of concussions from being in the military and I got to deal with the problems to this day so I tend to take an extremely proactive view to brain trauma. Fighters should be medically cleared both before and after a fight, including checking for concussions even if the dude didn’t get knocked out. Brain trauma doesn’t really go away and the damage may take years to appear. Again, this is just my opinion, but I cannot believe that it would hurt the sport to be more proactive in protecting the future of fighters.
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace"
by UMBC Oriole fan on Mar 9, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
The problem isn't the commissions
The problem is the utter lack of financial stability in this sport. If an NFL player sprains his wrist and skips a game, he’s not going anywhere, not losing much or any money. Fighters, even when signed to an organization, are essentially free agents, with all the security that comes along with that.
Absolutely the UFC and others should have to guarantee security to all injured fighters. I’m not saying they always do a bad job with this on a surface level, but of course most fighter’s live off their fight night paychecks. This behavior needs to be financially disincentivized — there’s simply no way to sufficiently screen for all life-threatening injuries, or to make appropriate calls about which fighters should retire when.
Amen...
this whole issue of guys fighting with injuries or trying to hide them would go away if the fighters didn’t have such an incentive to get into the ring hurt rather than sitting it out.
I’ve always wondered, can fighters even get health insurance? I can imagine that it hurts their ability to get it even when they stop fighting.
"The ball always seems to find Ed Reed...The man is a menace"
by UMBC Oriole fan on Mar 9, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
Good point.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
I wouldn’t mind seeing promotions pay fighters less per fight, but give them a decent sized base salary. Its tough to watch a fighter have to pull out of a fight and watch show money, possible win money, possible bonuses and sponsorship money go down the drain.
If you are under contract with the UFC, you should have a base salary. If you don’t, you’re nothing more than a freelance fighter with an unfair, binding contract.
MMAMoneyLine
Why can’t the fighters make the call, I assume you don’t think people have a right to decide for themselves what to do with there own life?
Actually, you don’t have the right to decide. You’re sanctioned under a commission and licensed to fight. Therefore, the commission has the ultimate decision.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
So then you don’t think people can make choices for there own lifes, fair enough. I am for freedom of choice, your for letting other decide what you can and cannot do(assuming you agree with the commissions).
Let me guess, you are under 21, but over 18 and think you own the world?
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I want to watch fair fights, not fights where guys are desperate for money so they go in with broken whatever and die. If I fought I would want the other guy to be 100% and minimize the chance of me killing him due to an existing injury. No fighter wants to kill the guy across the cage. So you are either below 21 and above 18 OR you are James Toney’s dad, the original death fighter.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Who said freedom? I am speaking of regulations that exist in the best interest of both fighters. You are saying you don’t care as long as you get to see a fight.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I never said that. I said why can’t people make choice for themselves? I assume you think people can’t make choices for themselves?
there are lots of choices people can’t make for themselves. They can’t decide to take certain drugs, they can’t decide to drive certain speeds, they can’t decide to own certain guns, they can’t decide to fight someone else.
You right, I am against the drug war and any other law that bans a consensual act like prostitution.
are you also against licensing doctors? Drugs needing prescriptions? drivers licenses? regulating guns? regulating banks?
There are private companys that act as watchdogs like consumer reports and underwriters laboratory. We are so use to the government doing things we think only they can handle it. I can’t stay on here all day if you really want to understand my view, check out lp.org its the libertarian party website.
Bad example, UL is a nonprofit approved by OSHA to issue certifications. Consumer reports is pretty good, but not really in the same way a regulatory body is good.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
Both good example, UL is a nongovernment entity doing what is normally considered something only the government can do, they were founded before OSHA was even around, its misleading to even bring OSHA into this as they have nothing to do with UL. The people at OSHA are just trying to make themselves look important. And now I am really going!
really?
No I am for rules. Everything you just mentioned could hurt people that didn’t previously agree to something. I am not pro murder. I am pro consenting adult choice. Those things have to do with a large group. A fight has to do with two people. It should be up to the two parties involved.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 4:13 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Because JDS
won’t hurt the Mark Coleman or Gary Goodridges of the world?
he will knock them out like he does everyone.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 4:14 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
But my question
was about it getting sanctioned. He has a chance to really HURT these 2 guys.
Freedom of choice is usually a good thing
but we’re talking about the decision-making abilities of professional fighters here.
To be even clearer I mean non consensual acts that harm people. If two people agree to hurt each other fine, wither for fighting or some strange bsdm sex act it does not matter.
But if one fighter comes in hiding a severe injury
then he is acting in bad faith.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 9, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
So your saying two people agree to fight, but one does not tell the other he is hurt and implies that he is 100%? If so I guess the other guy could make a case for fraud, that would be an odd situation were the person would care(if would be a easier fight for him). Now on the other hand if someone said they were injured but were not, then as the opposing fighting that would make me upset(as the fight would be harder).
He made a choice, if I go bungee jumping I might die, or any other extreme sport or as a cop or stuntman or whatever. We cannot go around trying protect everyone from themselves.
so you’d be ok killing someone with your bare hands because the person who decided they were going to fight you didn’t disclose previous brain injuries, or was a much worse fighter than you?
Do you also live in some dream world where you can bungee jump wherever you want and that isn’t regulated?
In a sport, we can try. Its not worth someone being killed in the ring. And the I would think the fighters agree. I don’t want to kill anyone. And the bungee jumping comparison is very flawed. Its like an instructor hooking up your rig and then you fall to your death because he forgot to tie you off, waiver or not his ass is getting sued.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
There both dangerous , along with being a stuntman,a cop, climbing a really tall tree, playing tackle football with your friends,etc. I don’t want the fighters hurt, I might like the UFC to add even more rules and have bigger gloves, but I don’t want it to be the law. I don’t want them force to do.
Its not about forcing them to do it. Its about having operating standards and independent bodies. That is really the topic at hand, whether or not the bodies are operating based on a standard or operating on no standard when approving fights.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
I’m okay with independent bodies as long as their role is clear and very limited. The article and it’s examples are terrible terrible reasons to not sanction a fight, and I’m 100% on board with Kefka, it’s a slippery slope when you have to go around deciding what’s best for another person’s life.
It’s not really about what is best for the fighters lives. It saves the sport and the sports integrity. If you want a private sanctioning body, then defend WAMMA.
Some people think I am a dumb, ugly human being, but really I am a beautiful ape, with exceptional verbal skills.
WAMMA is a really great example of why private bodies are better. Because it’s ultimately the people that control it and they’re not completely unaccountable. WAMMA was pretty much a joke and was poorly run, therefore they get very little respect and are not taken seriously. I’m not sure if WAMMA is still around or not, but their life is very limited because the fans of the sport do not support them. If an official government body felt the same way that WAMMA felt, you’d have no choice but to abide by their terrible principle.
I would not be, I am not a fighter. And depending on what happened I might not have much respect for the fighter who killed the other. But legally I think no harm should come to the “killer”.
I am for freedom, you are not. Most of the country voted for one of two people that don’t want to let us decide for ourselves how to live, so its understandable. If you want a nanny state for everything that is or might be harmful so be it, but at least look in to libertarianism.
i am for most freedoms, I am not for the freedom to get into a fight, just like I’m not for the freedom to own a bazooka, the freedom to drive 200 miles and hour, and many other freedoms that people like to make up on their own whenever they feel like.
Thats fine, I disagree. If people want to fight and agree to it go right ahead. I have met people that own bazookas, I am a reenactor and they were also(ww2 and Vietnam I think). They were not harming anyone so there was no issue, now if one of them decided to use on some innocent people, now there is a problem.
WHOOO! AYN RAND! RON PAUL! RAND PAUL!
Fucking silliness.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 9, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
Atlas Shrugged has as much value to the world of literature
as the 5th Harry Potter book. It’s pop fantasy, mediocre storytelling, and takes way too long to go anywhere.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 9, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
to be fair
That Harry Potter book wasn’t horrible though…….am I right or am right? Lol
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 4:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
This is pretty hilarious when combined with your sig, unless your sig isn’t actually being sarcastic.
I know...
the sig there to stop me from doing things like that and let objectivists just be wrong by themselves.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 9, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Whats interesting about this whole debate is none of the things mentioned are stopped by law and commissions. Drug use, underground fights, etc. I don’t think no government is the way to go, limited government is what I want and to spend its time fighting things that truly hurt people, like rapist,murderers,robbers,etc They can’t stop that either but its a lot better try stopping those kinds of things than consensual acts.
You might be right about Atlas except its also chillingly accurate about the way the government gains power and usurps the rights of it citizens.
I have to go, I understand my views seem out there and a while ago I would have thought the same thing, then I came across the Libertarian party and started learning more about freedom and about government. Check it out lp.org at least take a look before dismissing it. You might learn somethings new. Yippie!
I think every single person in here advocating for tougher AC standards...
Is forgetting one very important thing. These are the same AC that struggle constantly to field qualified referees and continue to bring us some of the worse judges seen this side of Boxing.
You really want to give them more of a say about whom is skilled enough to fight who?
In a perfect world where the AC are well run machines and worth a damn, I could see being persuaded to agree with you guys about it, but would still be a tough sell due to being a supporter of personal liberties.If a fighter thinks he has a shot, and isn’t at a sizable medical disadvantage due to injury, he should be allowed to fight as long as the promotion wants to put the fight on.
As long as they can’t even field competent staff on a regular basis, I sure as hell don’t want to see them evaluating fighters skill level and denying fights on that basis.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
The truth!!!!
I want better refing! !!!
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 4:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
thats what the ac needs to worry about reffing. Not match making.
If there is good refing fighters will be protected.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 5:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The ref can’t stop a fighter from throwing a blow to the head of a guy with a cracked skull that could potentially kill him. Refs can only do so much once a match is booked and sanctioned. The point is there are matches that shouldn’t be booked and sanctioned for reasons of 1) injury to one of the fighters that should keep them out and 2) competitive imbalance, ie. Gary Goodridge/Gegard Moussasi, Jose Conseco/Anyone, Tim Sylvia/Wes Sims, etc….
really?
I don’t believe you quoted Tito Ortiz’s post fight reason for why he lost. Really?
Tim and Wes have already fought .Wes has fought several champions. Now you say he can’t attempt to turn his career around? Tim wont kill Wes. And Tito didnt have a cracked skull or forest would have dropped him. I am surprised you like fighting. You seem more like a golf kind of Guy.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 6:27 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
First of all if you feel the need to resort to insults perhaps you should reevaluate the strength of your argument.
That being said…
It’s because I’m a fan of the sport that I don’t want to see something terrible happen in the cage/ring. If you think that just letting anyone, in any condition climb in and fight is going to keep the sport healthy and vibrant then you’re a fool. I don’t know about you but I don’t want to see someone die in an MMA match because after that happens, I guarantee it’s going to become much more difficult to indulge in the sport as a fan.
I don’t think it will be a good idea, I don’t think the UFC would do that as the public outcry would be great. The UFC would do what it does now with or without the commissions. It would have no effect on the sport except perhap making it better, with better control of refs and judges,etc. We already have underground fights, go check out youtube if you don’t believe me, I think if those people get caught they should not be put in jail, freedom to live.
That was a horrible piece by Zach, what is with these writers and their articles recently they seem to just be writting things for shock instead of with actual research and good points.
To say that Jens vs. Javier shouldn’t have been allowed is beyond ridiculous this was probably the most even fight of the night. Sadly Pulver executed a horrible gameplan by choosing to throw kicks and not keep his distance but nothing about that fight showed it shouldn’t have happened.
I've never quite figured out ...
… what exactly Zach Arnold has done that qualifies him to have anyone takes his opinions on commissions seriously. Or on most other subjects for that matter.
I’ve never quite figured out … what exactly Zach Arnold has done that qualifies him to have anyone takes his opinions on commissions seriously.
Mostly the Pride Yakuza scandal.
He was spot on with that whole thing LONG before anyone else thought it would have legs. He got labeled as a kook and a member of tinfoil hat brigade … right up until the moment Pride lost their TV deal and started to hemorrhage money.
right, except ...
his “reporting” and “analysis” of the PRIDE scandal all came straight out of Meltzer’s Wrestling Observer print edition, in the days before Meltzer was writing about MMA for major sports websites.
by andherewego on Mar 10, 2010 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
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