Re-Evaluating Miguel Torres After His Loss at WEC 47
by Kid Nate on Mar 9, 2010 12:04 AM EST
in MMA News
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Not long ago Miguel Torres was regarded as not only far and away the best bantamweight in the world, but also one of the best pound-for-pound fighters in the world. After two straight losses, MMA watchers are beginning to change their tune.
Here's Kelvin Hunt speculating on Torres' loss of his intimidating edge:
With his performances(and help with the media) Torres had built this invincible aura around him. It seemed as if he could do whatever he wanted in the cage. If you wanted to stand and bang, he'd beat you there. If you wanted to take him down, he'd just submit you. However, now after suffering back to back dominating losses, will other bantamweights view him in the same light? The same fighter that ran through each opponent time and time again, or will they sense some vulnerability now?
This situation kind of reminds me of the Mirko Cro Cop KO loss to Gabriel Gonzaga at UFC 70. It seemed as though that loss took some of Mirko's soul with it. It also took away the mytique and aura that Mirko once possessed, and I wonder if Torres will follow the same path? The difference between Cro Cop and Torres is that Torres is in his physical prime right(29 years old) now, whereas Cro Cop was well over the age of 30 when he made his UFC debut and began going downhill. Torres still has time to correct the flaws in his game(notably take down defense and much needed strength), but only time will tell if he's willing to do what it takes to evolve with the fight game. It's no secret that other bantamweights are gunning for the top spot. Dominick Cruz is a prime example of that. The question now is: Will other bantamweights go into fights with Torres now with less respect and more confidence in their abilities to beat him?
And Zak Woods takes a critical look at Torres' past opponents:
In early 2009 Torres defeated Takeya Mizugaki, who was signed from Greatest Common Multiple (bet you haven't heard of that promotion before) on short notice to fight the bantamweight champion. Yet Mizugaki was able to win two early rounds a fact that caused many to jump all over Takeya as an immediate bantamweight contender. Since that fight Mizugaki barely won a split decision over Jeff Curan and is 1-2 in theWEC.
Torres' previous opponent was Manny Tapia in late 2008. Manny is 0-3 since that fight and is now out of the WEC. In the summer of 2008 Miguel fought Yoshiro Maeda who subsequently loss to Rani Yaha and was cut from the WEC. Maeda fought in DREAM's featherweight GrandPrix losing in the second round though he recently defeated Chase Beebe and Kleber Koike though that victory was due to illegal groin strikes. Prior to Maeda, Miguel defeated Chase Beebe who is since 0-4 (granted one was an outright robbery) and currently resides outside the WEC.
MMA is an extremely fluid sport that is still evolving at a breakneck pace, yet from just two years ago only one opponent that Torres defeated in the WEC still resides in that promotion and that is Takeya Mizugaki.
In my mind, the story is less the fall of Miguel Torres than it is how rapidly the talent levels are increasing in the featherweight and bantamweight divisions. I have to give much of the credit to Zuffa and the efforts of the WEC to treat these divisions seriously as top-flight divisions for men's MMA.
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So I'm the only one not giving up on Torres, I suppose
Nice MMA revisionism, Zak. People shit a chicken when anyone dares to do that sort of thing to Fedor, but it’s open season on Miguel because he’s dropped two fights. Shrug..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 9:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Nobody’s giving up on Torres yet but it’s obvious he needs to keep evolving his game to keep up with the new found depth in the WEC
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
I don't agree that that's it
Bowles caught him— all credit due (same as with Benavidez, not taking anything away)— and it appears to have effected his instinct. He looked so awkward and tentative against Benavidez, it was like waiting for impact just before a car accident. I’m not concerned about Miguel’s ability— not one little bit. I’m concerned about his mindset, and it might befit him to take some time off to collect himself before giving it another go.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Torres already took 7 months off
I’m pretty sure he wasn’t even injured after his fight w/ Bowles (other than a most likely concussion from the KO.) Are you suggesting he needs even longer this time?
by Brian Hemminger on Mar 8, 2010 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
That has no baring on my opinion
It has to do with losing twice and looking really uncomfortable. Not that he has to top his previous duration of time off.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
yeah he said thats how he was gonna fight now.
its silly and he doesnt know how to fight like that. He needs to go back to the old Torres way.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Yep
Win or lose, that’s who he is. And, quite honestly, he’ll win many more than he will fighting like this.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
The Miguel Cotto Effect
—Maybe Cotto’s inability to get his head back in the game after the brutal beating he suffered at the hands of Antonio Margacheato and Manny “PacRoid” Pacquiao rubbed off on Miguel Torres. It’s only a theory, however if Miguel loses his next fight then it would be something I would definitely look into.
"I do no speak of the future. Your demise is already an inescapable fact of the past. " - Aizen
Floyd Mayweather, Jr. fan since 7/12/97 -- 40-0-0 (25 KOs)
really?
There is no need to break anyone’s balls about roids. Almost everyone is on them or GH or some sort o p.e.d. . They still can’t box like Manny. Now loading your gloves is criminal. he should ashamed and banned from profighting forever.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 10:17 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
The thing is he publicly touted how much he changed his training for this fight, so is this something he can fix.
I’m thinking he may have been exposed. Not as a bad fighter but as having a huge problem handling fireplug wrestlers with power in their standup.
I don't know though
The Torres we saw against Benavidez did not look like the Torres we saw fight Mizugaki. He looked tenative, and afraid of getting ko’d. I think his bad press got in his head. He thought the way to win was to abandon his aggressive fighting style and become more reserved.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
He fought not to lose
And he might do it again (perhaps worse, coming off two losses). That’s why I think he should take some time off.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Too me, I thought he had the look of a guy too worried what his opponent could do instead of trying to accomplish his own game plan.
Pretty much
Uncharacteristically so; that’s sort of my point.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Firts, it would be nice if you read everything I wrote before you call me a jackass as I say exactly what you did, though, I’d like to think more eloquently.
It is tricky to look back at historical opponents and analyze their worth, as we are influenced by those opponents recent resumes. But in the case of Torres, WKR was shocked (our own fault for not doing our homework) to see how much Miguel’s WEC opponents have dropped off since fighting the former champion.
Second, I think it is interesting that the only fighter still in the WEC who Torres’ defeated is Takeya Mizugaki while the rest are riding serious losing streaks in promotions that are perceived to be less talented.
Is that not fair?
watchkalibrun.com
I'm not going to read anything you say if you're going to argue "eloquence"
What a joke.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:01 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd
Although detractors decry (MMA) as a brutal, bloody form of human cockfighting, aficionados know it is a brutal, bloody, totally fucking awesome form of human cockfighting. -The Onion
by The Kittitas Kid on Mar 8, 2010 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
its fair
i think that just shows that talent level. not that these people are cans.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Yeah, I’m not a fan of going back and dissecting a fighter’s victories (eg: Oh, this guy was sick, that guy dropped two in a row right after, this guy was a fluke, etc). I’m all about looking at a fighter in context of the challengers, and Miguel was destroying everyone.
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
very true, but this isn’t going back 3 or 4 or 5 years. These are opponents just a single year ago!
That is certainly worth mentioning, no?
watchkalibrun.com
Honest question, not an attack:
Should we discount Fedor’s victories over Tim Sylvia and Andrei Arlovski for the same reasons?
I think his argument is that since bantamweight is such a relatively new weight class, WEC didn’t crown their first champ at BW until May 2006, that is has been nearly impossible to properly rate fighters position within the division.
silvia and arlovski were not the best the HW division had to offer...
yet fedor is still ranked #1
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
And they are also nowhere near the worst, especially at the time of those fights, so that really doesn’t address the question I was asking.
when you’re talking about the #1 fighter (fedor), you don’t compare him to the worst, you compare him to the best, and fedor has yet to fight the best.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
So Timmy and AA are now the worst? Interesting revisionist history of MMA you’ve got going on there.
It should definitely affect the way we view those victories for Fedor, as they were clearly not the same fighters they were a few years ago. You could even take it a step further and argue that the primary reason that Sylvia and Arlovski were ranked so highly in the first place was because of their wins against each other, which don’t look quite so impressive in retrospect. All of the true top HW’s at the time were fighting outside of the UFC (or had recently been in nearly fatal motorcycle accidents).
Bullshit
Andrei was on fire when the Fedor matchup came along. He deserved to be ranked highly until the Fedor curse took his soul, as it has done with Cro Cop, Timmeh, Affliction, Bodog, etc….
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!
by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 9, 2010 6:46 AM EST up reply actions
“On fire” may be a bit of an exaggeration. He was on a 4-fight winning streak, with Werdum being the only one of the four who has ever even sniffed a top-10 HW ranking. And if memory serves, he was on the verge of being submitted by Roy Nelson until a horrible stand-up by the referee.
Yeah, you're right
Little exagerrated. It just really excited me that he was developing his hands that way, really starting to utilize his speed and athleticism in a division that generally lacks those two attributes.
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!
by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 9, 2010 8:23 PM EST up reply actions
Yes, you have a point. But at the same time, before they ran into Torres, these guys were formidable. (Mizugaki was on a 5 fight win streak, Tapia was on 9, Beebe was on 7, etc).
You have to be the man... you have to be very, like, alpha male with her. You know? Decide what you do and everything. So, show her who's the boss, you know? - GSP
by pud333 on Mar 8, 2010 10:42 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Comparing Fedor to Torres is a bit of a stretch though isn't it
The bantamweight division is exceptionally young, and this is really the first time we’ve seen top fighters fight, and Miguel has dropped two in a row. That doesn’t mean he’s not a great Bantamweight, but it does mean he’s not the P4P great we thought he was. Fedor has been the king of the most established weight class in MMA in that era, and he has never dropped a few.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
How dare I breath Fedor’s name in the same sentence as any other fighter?
This is the shit I’m talking about. Come on d00d..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
I don't mean Fedor's sacred
I mean that the context is entirely different.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
I don't think so
You can review past opponents no matter the circumstances, no? Those fights don’t change.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
What if a cracked skull is involved?
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:18 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The difference is Fedor’s historical track record. He’s beaten a slew of fighters in his career who were demonstrably world class. The problem for Torres is that he was gifted Emelianenko’s status after beating Jeff Curran and 75 guys in midwestern bars. There was never any real indication he was a top flight fighter: the UFC brought him out to all their shows, arranged media appearances and manipulated him into that status.
Look at the track record of the fighters that Zuffa has pushed in the WEC with a very heavy hand. It’s not pretty. It makes more sense to let the fighters do their talking in the cage. In another year or so I think things will begin to sort themselves out.
by Jonathan Snowden on Mar 9, 2010 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Fedor has been the king of the most established weight class in MMA in that era, and he has never dropped a few.
You mean the thinnest and known weakest division right? I think if anything the conversation is more relevant, just fedor in like the now talent rich HW division can the established top of the bantamweight handle the new rich talent pool?
by Beren on Mar 8, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he's going to be okay
I’ve said in the past that I think he could end up at 155 eventually if he can put on bulk (his body type might not support it, though). 145 might be a good move after the two losses. Guys usually get a fresh start when they move (people don’t hold their losses at other weight’s against them when doing so— at least, not as much).
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Yeah, he’s pretty damn wiry. Looks like a teenager.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
naw i just think thats how he is built,I doubt there is a huge strength gap
i bet he doesnt really cut much weight. Although i am always for fighters getting more muscle and moving up in weight if they have the height.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
nobody does those anymore man
Horsemeat for the muscle. Ice cream for fun.
I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!
by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 9, 2010 6:49 AM EST up reply actions
He walks around at 150 before camp
so it’s not a huge cut.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
dude he got cut and couldnt see and was breathing in his own blood
shit happens
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
I know
Don’t want to sound like I’m making tons of excuses for the guy, beyond how he looked before that occurred.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
In fairness, he was well on his way to a decision loss before that.
by Worldisart on Mar 8, 2010 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well to be fair
Torres also doesn’t exactly have the same history as Fedor.
"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"
Good fucking gravy
is this comment way off.
"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"
I'm with ya, Miguel ain't going anywhere.
Maybe he needs to get with GSP and find out about going to that sports psychiatrist.
by HappyLittleTreez on Mar 9, 2010 8:55 AM EST up reply actions
I think it’s idiotic that more professional athletes aren’t seeing sports psychiatrists. Most athletes in most sports will comment endlessly on how important the mental game is to their sport, and yet how many actually take the time to develop their mental game with a professional? It’s not mental weakness to see a psychiatrist any more than it is physical weakness to see a physician. I give GSP a ton of credit for doing what it takes to become and remain a champion. I’d give Torres just as much credit if he took that step.
This is a pretty reasonable suggestion. Even professional fucking golfers are way ahead on this, and they don’t have anyone trying to kill them with shots while they play. Seems like combat sports are the place where mindset is most important. Vera should look into this as well!
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 10, 2010 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
I’m glad people are now being forced to take a step back and reevaluate their eager consumption of the hype for lower-weight fighters.
I still won’t be surprised to see Cruz in the top ten pound for pound on Sherdog , though.
Well yeah, its tight down there
The fighters are really competitive. Moreso at bantamweight than featherweight though. I feel like Urijah, Brown, and Aldo have all proven themselves to be top fighters though. People comparing Aldo to Anderson though are getting a little out of hand.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
People comparing Aldo to Anderson though are getting a little out of hand.
Yep. I love Aldo, but this is the reverse circumstance to how Miguel is being treated right now. Just relax, take a deep breath, criticize fighters one bout at a time (instead of anointing MMA gods and banishing fighters to can-hell after one or two wins/losses)..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This
Miguel was and is a great fighter who will probably rebound. He may even win the title again, but he was not the top pound for pound fighter Frank Mir was making him out to be. The mere fact that we are having this conversation is because his hype was ridiculous.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
I was lukewarm to aldo until he handled brown… nobody handles brown like that.
You can just tell with his strength and composure and how he hurts guys, the look on his opponents faces… Aldo is the 145lb version of Anderson Silva.
He has the athletic tools to one day become Anderson. He’s fast, deceptively strong, and has a killer instinct, but he is way sloppier then Anderson.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
And those KICKS
Some scary shit..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
watch this and tell me Aldo isnt a born killer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feexb8x5rho&feature=player_embedded
willing to decapitate with no care in the world. This kid is gonna be the baddest mofo in MMA.
Well then
I hope Brown keeps winning, lest someone write an article in 18 months about how he wasn’t any good anyway.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
nobody handles brown like that?
Faber was doing well the second time, with 2 broken hands.
certified warlord
Ha!
—You speak truth. Whoever compares Aldo to Anderson needs to get their head checked. His fight with Urijah is going to be tough, not because he’s facing Urijah — I am confident that Aldo will destroy Urijah. I give credit to Aldo for defeating Mike Brown; winning the belt and defending it his next fight. Atleast Bowles had a fight to prepare for what could have been a Bowles-Torres 2.
Now I just want the WEC to start putting money into marketing these champions.
"I do no speak of the future. Your demise is already an inescapable fact of the past. " - Aizen
Floyd Mayweather, Jr. fan since 7/12/97 -- 40-0-0 (25 KOs)
Part of me wonders how Miguel trains for his next step, whatever it is. Before this piece I saw him regarding his new training regimen as a Failed Experiment and going back to Chicago, where as another poster noted he was on a 17-fight win streak (granted, maybe that was a Kang-style streak; time will tell). After reading it and thinking, I don’t know if that’s the best approach for him, but he also didn’t look improved from training with Tompkins.
I wonder if he’ll accept a tune-up fight next, give himself some more time to acclimate to the new digs. I think it would be good for him and maybe he shouldn’t have taken a dude as tough as Benavidez for a comeback fight, but I guess that’s why he was the champ.
It’s definitely too soon to write the dude off, but I am interested to see where he goes from here. I think the dude’s immensely talented, but then so’s everyone else these days.
…As an aside, if Faber loses to Aldo, is the time ever going to be better for a potential Torres/Faber superfight? Even if they’re not P4P gods anymore, that’s a fight I’d love to see.
I’d still love to see Torres/Faber for sure. I can also understand the view that Miguel should put on some muscle and move up to FW. I definitely think fighting more defensively is the wrong idea for him against someone like Bowles or Benavidez. When you let a faster opponent initiate the action, you give away much of your reach advantage. Add that to the fear of being taken down and the effect that has on a kickboxer’s game, and you look the way Miguel looked in that fight. I think Miguel will be back strong, but he definitely needs to work on his wrestling, at least to the point he trusts it and feels free to throw.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 8, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions
Suicide?
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:07 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
lmao
Rec’ed
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Good one.
The Seattle Seahawks offense is driving......right into a brick wall at the end of the tunnel.
Absolutely
I’m excited about him. Again, I’m taking nothing away from Benavidez. He did what he set out to do.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
For sure, and he’s got quite a long career ahead of him, it looks like he’s only going to get better.
I think Torres is just losing focus. I could tell by his interview on the fight show that he is dealing with a lot of outside frustration. I think he just need to find his roots and go with what got him to where he is. I think it’s a case of too many cooks stirring the pot. He ventured out to several different trainers that weren’t coordinating on his overall game plan.
He got Maynard'd
To his Frankie.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
The same Canseco that trains at Cesar Gracie's?
Damn..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
wow.
Choi beat a guy who belongs in the same camp as 3 Strikeforce Champions?? Really?! Holy shit. That guy must be good, to be able to beat a guy at that caliber.
by Anton Tabuena on Mar 8, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
He came out with a new album...
And he’s probably banging hotter girls than us. Sucks for us.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions
I have in fact heard of “Greatest Common Multiple”. You see, I watch all MMA, every single damn fight that happens everywhere.
Keep firing Assholes!
Blackout is always right
I bow down to your global knowledge of Homosexual Skinhead Fighting….
If Derek Jeter clubbed a baby seal on earth day while wearing a mink coat and crocodile skin boots while burning tires on an iceberg, the reaction would be "Its OK Derek, you’re a Yankee." -First mammal to wear pants
Also, GCM is not a promotion, they’re a promoter/management group. The promotion is called Cage Force.
Anyway, WKR’s rundown of Torres’ opponents doesn’t really account for the kind of fighters they’re losing to, so it doesn’t mean a whole lot. Michael MacDonald, who just took out Manny Tapia, is a blue chip prospect for example
I just think Torres is a bit too unrefined in his approach to fighting, kind of like Urijah Faber. Miguel has tons of skill and size, and sometimes he puts it together and looks great, but he isn’t consistent. With his reach advantage and outfighting skills, nobody should be able to get close to him to do any damage
Yeah, like I said below. He wasn’t giving any reason for Benavidez to hesitate to close distance. It was a poor use of his natural gifts. He also is very poor defensively on the feet. When someone is close enough to hit him…they tend to find their mark.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 9, 2010 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
freakish length for a guy who fights at 135 pounds.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 9, 2010 12:05 AM EST up reply actions
yeah… That buys him the jab and the gogoplata. He’s a little under powered — don’t you think?
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
No…not at all.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 9, 2010 12:08 AM EST up reply actions
He should have a repertoire that suits his profile and keeps people like Benavidez who have a massive size disadvantage from doing what happened on Saturday. A consistent jab and the occasional front kick is a good start, but look no farther than Dominick Cruz if you want to see some nice outfighting in MMA. He should be more like that.
Had some free time...
so I went back and looked at what available top 10 rankings there were (from Sherdog or BE anyway) for each of Miguel’s last six opponents before he fought them.
The only one I couldn’t find that was top 10 before he fought them was Maeda.
- Benavidez – 5th
- Bowles – 2nd
- Mizugaki – 6th
- Tapia – 8th
- Beebe – 10th
I’d say that’s a pretty good selection of opponents. I tend to agree with Nate…the talent in the weight class has skyrocketed since there’s now a central location for the top bantamweights in the U.S.
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by Tonley on Mar 8, 2010 10:37 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
Very interesting and abiding questions are raised here. It’s too bad that some people take the opportunity to napalm the board with invective. The fact is that Torres isn’t the first one to lose his “aura” and he won’t be the last. Everyone has an opinion about what the future holds for Torres but nobody knows, not even him. This undecidability coupled with the high stakes every time a fighter steps into the ring make this the best sport in the world.
by dribblebib on Mar 8, 2010 10:39 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for coming around and dabbing our bubbling lips.
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by Blackout612 on Mar 8, 2010 10:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
good possibility
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
Just a smidgen maybe
I support the sentiment though.
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by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 9, 2010 7:46 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with the article
The talent level is rising but as I stated over at WKR I think Torres has overreacted to his loss and instead of tweaking things to make him better did a complete overhaul which was unnecessary. His confidence is shot and he’s not the killer he was. I also think his lack of strength hurts him a bit.
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i just re-watched the fight
I dont think miguel got dominated before he got his head split open and couldnt see. shit happens now he is 36 -3 . Are really gonna call the guy a fraud quite yet ? he is still one of my favorite fighters. I am still gonna be driving the Torres War Wagon. When he starts wreckin’ fools again yall will want to get back on too. Still a great fighter sick jits ,good Muay Thai and great cardio. I predict he gets his belt back!
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
Yeah, I’m not on board with this whole “he didn’t beat anyone” angle.
Torres fought with a bad gameplan against Benavidez. That’s really the big things. He didn’t use anything but a jab. There was nothing there that was really keeping Benavidez from closing distance. I mean, a jab is a nice “step 1” in the process. But if there is nothing else there then a guy will eventually either start to slip the jab and come in behind a power shot or he’ll be willing to eat the jab to get into the distance he wants.
I think Torres could still be the best fighter at 135, he just fought a bad fight.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 8, 2010 11:48 PM EST reply actions
The jab was the only tool he had. He doesn’t have power, he doesn’t have superior grappling, he doesn’t have anything on Benavidez — except maybe the jab.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
…not really familiar with Miguel Torres?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 9, 2010 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
I’ve seen all his wec bouts. Am I missing something?
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
Is that why he’s still a contender — because he ‘dropped tapia’? lol
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
considering 31 of his 37 career victories have been finishes, I’d say he has more than a jab.
"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni
I think mma_dude was attempting to compare Torres’ skill set in relation to Benavidez. I’ve been following Torres since his WEC debut and have known Benavidez since he was winning state wrestling titles and fighting in tiny amateur events in Southwestern New Mexico and expected Joe to top control his way to a decision. Torres merely ran into his own personal 5’3 kryptonite.
Against Joe specifically, Torres lacks speed, strength, defensive wrestling, and an ability to finish from the bottom (Benavidez has never been close to being submitted, even though he has spent a majority of his career working an aggressive top control game). Joe’s shorter arms are actually an advantage from top since it is extremely difficult for a grappler to catch any of his limbs. They’re also perfectly suited for short elbows and gnp. Torres has always relied on his opponents fearing his ground game (which Joe clearly did not), so his defensive wrestling has never fully developed (nor has it had to). Also, Torres’ height advantage was negated since Torres rarely actually uses it in any of his fights and has always instead preferred to sit in the pocket and bang. After 37 fights, I find it odd that so many were expecting Torres to work an effective distance game or be able to keep the fight standing when he’s never shown an ability to do so in the past against a decent opponent.
For the record, I believe that Torres is one of the best 135 lb fighters in the world, and quite possibly the most accomplished and prolific. However, I don’t think Torres fought a bad fight, I simply think he lost to a better fighter.
well said...
the future of that division has the ‘body type’ you speak of. Torres would be better suited to move up in weight, provided he puts on muscle — but he’s gonna have to put on muscle to be competative in any weight class, including his current one.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
While I agree that smaller fighters are becoming much stronger, I don’t quite agree with the notion that the division has or will ever have a prototypical and dominant “body type.” If Torres did actually use his intrinsic advantages and had developed as a Nick Diaz type volume puncher from range, he may have staved off Benavidez. Just as Benavidez was a terrible match-up for Torres, we’ve already seen that a tall, lanky, powder-puff punching fighter with decent TD defense and a hit-and-run style such as Cruz can outpoint Joe over 3 rounds (this is not meant to put Cruz down, I really enjoy his style). Moving to 145 would be a terrible idea for Torres. He could develop more strength and stay tall and lanky at his current weight and be just fine.
He had Bowles hurt as well. He doesnt lack power. He just needss to go back to doing his own thing and being aggressive. Hell be. Back if he does this. Though as logic said(cringes) it would be nice to see him on tuf introducing the new division in the ufc.
I'm gonna make a bold prediction here and say Cain "pillowhands" (as some of you have called him) lol Velasquez catches Nog right on the chin and finishes via strikes on the ground. Nog looked good against an old Randy. It didn't show me much. We’ll see.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 18, 2010 11:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 9, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
Oh I think he had many things. Torres is explosive, he had good footwork but lacked any sort of serious offense and didn’t punish benavidez from the distance. Benavidez would close in and Torres would throw those hooks (I think) and go to the ground or eat some heavy punches. With so much size and reach on benavidez there was more to do. A good coaching in between rounds could have been a game changer. I blame the cut for the way he got caught in the guillotine, for a few secs he looked kinda lost on the ground.
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
The problem is that we really can’t decipher what his gameplan was. I’m assuming it was to use range, but he didn’t throw the jab much at all… and I’d almost say he had little to no offense in the entire fight besides heel kicks to Benavidez’s ass.
Torres looked way uncomfortable, threw the jab AFTER Benavidez had already penetrated the pocket and was inside, and was taken down easily. Just bad.
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by Leland Roling on Mar 9, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
Good point. However, I don’t think Torres was expecting Joe to take the center of the cage and patiently search for openings. Historically, Benavidez has rushed in with front kicks and loopy strikes in an attempt to overwhelm opponents with his relentless pace. He seemed to have learned his lesson in his sloppy Cruz performance and fought with a more reserved muay thai style against Torres. Torres’ gameplan seemed to be based on counter-punching and catching Joe as kamikaze’d his way forward. This never happened. I don’t think Torres looked hesitant, I think he looked confused. Also, Joe was well outside of the pocket for Torres’ jab to be effective, especially in the first round. A snapping jab that is still 3-4 inches away from your opponent does little when it’s not landing and he’s patiently snapping leg kicks and getting his timing down.
I dont think Torres or Faber will ever get back to the top… I want them to be Tuf coaches next spring.
Faber vs Torres
— would be a huge fight for the WEC. If Aldo completely dominates Urijah, it would be something to think about.
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who said anything about the wec… I want them as tuf coaches next spring to introduce the new weight classes into the UFC. and then fight each other in the UFC after the show.
If the WEC rolls into the UFC — sure
—If not, refer to my previous post.
"I do no speak of the future. Your demise is already an inescapable fact of the past. " - Aizen
Floyd Mayweather, Jr. fan since 7/12/97 -- 40-0-0 (25 KOs)
Faber will not get back?
C’mon. He’s wrecked everyone but Brown, and he took that second fight the distance on two busted hands. He is a threat for Aldo.
certified warlord
nice write-up...
mma is getting more and more competative. skill is not all that matters anymore — physical attributes play a critical role once you reach the current level of competition. The smaller weight classes show this more clearly than some of the larger ones.
Faber, Florian, Nick Diaz, 'Mayhem', Mousasi, Fedor
I've never felt Torres should be in the p4p discussion.
Don’t get me wrong, he’s an exciting fighter to watch, and he’s quite skilled on a technical level. However, if you look at the guys in the pound for pound discussion, they’ve soundly beaten top 5-10 ranked fighters in their divisions. Torres’ first real top 5 BW opponent since beating Beebe was Mizugaki, who gave him a real run for his money, despite the short notice.
Torres is a smaller fighter and he’s very well-rounded, but I think that before you enter the pound-for-pound debate, you have to prove that your skills are above and beyond your peers in the top 10, which I never really feel that he did.
Please don’t view this post as disrespect to Miguel, as I think he can still be a force at BW. I just feel that the hype machine behind him got a little out of hand and now people are left questioning what they saw in the first place.
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But fighters OUTSIDE
the ZUFFA umbrella get talked about as top 10 or top p4p with record not equaling Torres. Evey fighter who wins 3 out of 4 fights outside Zuffa is a world beater and ranked in the top 10. Then all the rankings get fucked up and we don’t realize that guys are better (or worse) than they are. Nick Diaz just smoked a fighter who was ranked and going to be the next big thing. Aoki gets creamed in a fight then stays at 2 in the ranking while beating inferior fighters.
It depends on the rankings you're using to make your point.
I rarely hear about fighters that aren’t under the Zuffa banner (aside from Fedor, Mousasi, and maybe Aoki) being discussed in the top 10 pound for pound. I wouldn’t say Aoki’s been beating completely inferior fighters either, I’d say wins over Hansen, Alvarez, Ribeiro, and Alvarez are better than a win over Marius Zaromskis.
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by MilesHackett on Mar 10, 2010 4:03 AM EST up reply actions
As I said before, Torres looked like crap in this fight. And don’t mistake this for bandwagon bullshit, sometimes, a fighter just looked like poop. Torres lacked aggression, effective counter striking, and any form of ground attack. Will he continue to look like that? I hope not, but I’m not getting my hopes up.
"You guys are jerking eachother off with some pseudo deep bullshit." - Kid Nate
Migues needs to retire
I think Miguel needs to just hang it up already cause at this point I really don’t want to see him take anymore damage. He’s already suffered one brutal knockout that he’ll never be able to recover from in his career, honestly I think this whole time he’s actually been ko’d standing and just hasn’t realized it yet. He’s just lost 2 in a row, something virtually unheard of for any top caliber competitor, and doesn’t seem like the same fighter anymore, he doesn’t even look the same now being all thin and gangly which leads me to believe that it’s safe to assume he’s developed an eating disorder due to grief. At 29 years old you just cant expect him to ever be able to have any success ever again at anything.
I mean really what does he have to prove at this point, he already has his 31 fight legacy in Indiana to fall back on and at this point the WEC can find something else for him, like maybe they could have him sit on Frank Mir’s lap and read humorous twitter postings in between rounds at WEC events while his mullet takes over duties for doing the post fight interviews. I just think Miguel is done for good, and no I don’t think I’m being at all presumptious or premature with my bold and unfounded theories since all of my opinions happen to be unquestionable facts.
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by Fake Emcee on Mar 9, 2010 5:25 AM EST reply actions 2 recs
“He’s just lost 2 in a row, something virtually unheard of for any top caliber competitor”
I guess BJ Penn should have retired in ’06 after droppin 2 straight.
"he doesn’t even look the same now being all thin and gangly "
1. Torres has always been “thin and gangly”
2. @ 5’9 hes not going to be bulky fighting at 135
“At 29 years old you just cant expect him to ever be able to have any success ever again at anything”.
lulz
i would like nominate this for comment of the century. lol
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 9, 2010 12:50 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Miguel is a very good, even great fighter. These last fights have highlighted a few holes in his game. These holes have always been there, but Miguel’s toughness and agressive fighting style compensated for his deficiencies against a certain level of opponent.
The talent level of the whole division has risen and will only continue to improve. Miguel and his supporters can think of every excuse out there (training partners, gun shy from last loss, etc), but he is never going to reign over that division the same way again. Too many guys are well rounded and fighting at a high level, and much of the hype and aura of invincibility surrounding Torres has been shattered. He deserves to be respected, but also viewed in the correct perspective.
the 135 weight division
is just like the 205 division (we all know machida lost to shogun :D), the belt will be switching hands every fight. We all know torres isnt the mytholigical god of Frank Mir’s wet dreams, but by no means is he a can. Hes still got a a few years of fighting ahead of him, and his popularity will not decline. If Pulver can drop 5 straight losses and still be adored by everyone, i doubt this funk Torres is in will hurt him much.
Bowles Took his soul
with that KO.
Torres had never been finished like that in 39 fights and Bowles demolished him. I think that plays a huge part in all of this.
Simply put, some fighters recover from a KO like that while others never mentally get it back together.
I love to see fighters respond to KO’s like that. To me, you can tell more from how a fighter responds to a KO loss than you can a 12 fight win streak.
I would love to see a thread talking about examples of really bad KO losses and how fighters respond to it and what path their careers took from that point on. I think that would be an interesting topic…
He needs to see a sports psychiatrist.
..like GSP. Your right I think that knockout really hurt his mental game, which to me was his biggest strength.
by HappyLittleTreez on Mar 9, 2010 8:59 AM EST up reply actions
Bandwagon abandoners!!! Boo!
I'm gonna make a bold prediction here and say Cain "pillowhands" (as some of you have called him) lol Velasquez catches Nog right on the chin and finishes via strikes on the ground. Nog looked good against an old Randy. It didn't show me much. We’ll see.
by xFenixKnightx on Feb 18, 2010 11:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Move up in weight
Torres really needs to move up in weight, put some meat on those bones. I also agree with those who say he needs a sports psychiatrist — he just didn’t look himself this weekend.
I don't think Zak deserves as much flack
Did Torres deserve to be number 1? Hell yes. That said rankings aren’t as important. Did Torres fight credible opponents at the time? Yes. There’s no real argument to be made in this case.
However, those wins might’ve been made to perceive that Torres was better then he actually was. Torres is with flaws and let’s be honest his previous wins as champion…while you can’t take them away from Torres. There is a case that you can make that the opponents weren’t as good and in hindsight it’s easy to make that assumption. I don’t think there’s anything in looking at history the way ZW has.
Torres was given the impression that he was invincible but he wasn’t totally impressive like he was the far away best FW in the world. It’s partly that the FWs have caught up and Torres hasn’t improved himself but I’m willing to agree that Torres wasn’t that great in the first place.
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Well
I don’t think many people were really painting Torres as the #1 Featherweight at any point in his career.
by Patrick John McGreevy on Mar 9, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Er sorry heh
Bad typo. Even then there was discussion that he’d move up in weight and fight Faber etc.
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