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The James Toney Experiment

Toney_holyfield_fight9_medium

As mixed martial arts gained prominence and popularity among general sports fans in the 2000s, the combat sport that had ruled the roost for a century--boxing--seemed to face it's waning days. Boxing had propped itself up on the heavyweight division in the late 1980s and 1990s, but with it's former stars either retiring (Lennox Lewis) or fading into irrelevancy (Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield), the "Sweet Science" was forced to make room for MMA in the consciousness of fight fans.

Inevitably, a debate emerged over which sport was truly supreme. Boxing has its long, rich history and a far greater acceptance among the general public. For decades, fathers have passed on boxing tradition to their sons and so on. Perhaps only baseball has roots as deep as boxing in American sports history. Boxing is a global sport, with entire nations rising in support of one of their sons. Certain fighters can truly capture the fans' imagination and transcend the sport, such as Oscar De La Hoya. But boxing depends on it's stars, and until the ascent of Manny Paquiao and Floyd Mayweather, De La Hoya was forced to carry boxing in the last decade with little help.

As boxing struggled, however, American MMA thrived. The UFC pushed its brand above its stars, making every montly pay-per-view event seem like a must-buy. It built cards top-to-bottom in a fashion similar to professional wrestling, and began breaking sales records long shared by the WWE and boxing. But MMA is still relatively new and has only been on cable television for the past few years. It saw its infant days mired in controversy, as political and public backlash decried the still unrefined sport as "human cockfighting." In Japan, the PRIDE FC promotion was immensely popular but after eight years of being an underground, niche attraction the UFC was on the verge of collapse. Then, in 2001, the Fertitta brothers and Dana White purchased the company. Under their Zuffa umbrella, they began streamlining the sport, earning regulation in new areas and creating stars in the process. The sport became more palatable to the public, and being a UFC champion began to carry weight in sports discussion. Last year saw one of the most successful PPV events of all-time with the landmark UFC 100, which received attention from every corner of the sports world.

Proponents of MMA chastise boxing for it's inability to provide compelling match-ups and screwing up fights the fans want to see. Some would suggest it's an incomplete combat sport, lacking the grappling and offensive capacity existant in legs that is essential in MMA. It's also valid to point out that boxing is filled with fighters lofted on their padded records against weak competition. Meanwhile, boxing supporters often decry mixed martial artists as incapable of being truly dynamic and technical with their boxing, so they go to a sport where they have a better chance of success. The "blood factor"--that is, all the blood that might be spilled in an MMA match--doesn't dispell any misconception that MMA fans are solely bloodthirsty, either. The fact is, both sports have image issues that each side likes to point out about the other.

In this new decade, though, boxing does seem poised for a comeback. Following successful pay-per-views separately featuring Paquiao and Mayweather, the entire sports world itches for a fight between the two pound-for-pound best boxers in the world. As anticipation for this match lingers, boxing fans will be treated to a Paquiao fight with Joshua Clottey next weekend and a long-time dream match-up when Pretty Boy Floyd faces Shane Mosley on May 1. The UFC is not slowing down, however, with a stretch of blockbuster cards planned throughout spring and summer. Add to that the attention Strikeforce has been getting and it's clear that MMA has attained a firm position in the sports psyche of America.

 

Star-divide

While the two combat sports jostle for position, a more subtle debate has developed among fans of the sport. What if a high-level boxer attempted to compete at the highest level of mixed martial arts? Who would be triumphant--the devoted practitioner with elite, technical punching prowess or the fighter with a diverse skillset in which perhaps no ability is greater than the boxer's but also in which more methods for victory exist? The two sports have cross-bred on small scales; former Elite XC champ KJ Noons took a sabbatical from MMA and boxed with mixed results (an 8-2 record) before signing on with Strikeforce last month. Former circuit boxer Marcus Davis has seen success as a mid-tier fighter in the UFC's welterweight division. And for years Anderson Silva has wanted a fight with the legendary but washed-up Roy Jones, Jr.

Only recently have there been developments that may actually led to a settling of the issue. Former welterweight and junior middleweight champion Ricardo Mayorga has signed on to fight the solid former UFC fighter Din Thomas. But the news that has resonated most deeply in fight circles is the UFC's signing of former great James Toney. Toney is a multiple-time champion in divisions spanning from middleweight to heavyweight and has a record of 72-6-3 over two decades of fighting at the highest level. 

At 41 years of age and with a few loose pounds on him, Toney isn't in his physical prime anymore but still brings a boxing pedigree the likes of which have never been in the Octagon. Elite kickboxers such as Semmy Schilt and and Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic have had varying degrees of success in MMA (the latter more than the former), but a pure boxer of Toney's stature has never been on a stage like the UFC. Ray Mercer fights in regional shows against fat Tim Sylvias and Kimbo Slice wannabes (Kimbo actually submitted Mercer in 2007--wrap your head around that one).

The James Toney Experiment is the first true test of a boxer with elite, if aged, skills competing at the highest level of MMA, and the questions around his future are wildly burning. Toney will immediately posses the best boxing in the HW division, if not all of the UFC. But he's never had someone attack him with anything other than punches. Is Toney's pugilistic skill enough to counter the onslaught of leg kicks he may face from a Muay Thai master? Saying he's familiar with things like the "side check kick" doesn't exactly bode well. What happens when even the most-middling wrestler shoots for a double leg? Can this man who has always fought with arms up and his opponent in front of him ever learn to properly sprawl? The first time a jiu-jitsu purple belt lays on him "like a lil' fag", to use Toney's own words, might reveal to him the frightening drowning that is a rear naked choke, or the ridiculous pain that is an armbar.

Or, Toney can knock out haters left and right. He's certainly capable of punching a hole in anyone's face, and with five ounce gloves he might re-validate his nickname of "Lights Out". Even with a basic grasp of wrestling and submissions, Toney could do some damage if never contend for the title (which he won't, in all probability).

For the moment, the James Toney Experiment appears to be a way for Toney to make money and for Dana White to gain publicity and challenge the notion that boxers are superior to mixed martial artists, a notion that is still widely prevalent. It's also a way for the UFC to prevent the ratings bonanza that would ensue if Strikeforce put on Herschel Walker vs. James Toney. Toney will likely never even attain the unofficial ranking of "gatekeeper" in the UFC, but this experiment might just be first stepping-stone laid of a path that leads to elite, in-their-prime boxers fighting elite, in-their-prime mixed martial artists in the ring and in the Octagon. Until then, let the debate rage.

Steve Jennum vs. Melton Bowen at UFC 4

Boxer vs MMA Fighter - Brutal Beatings - Human CockFighting in a Cage (via MikeHawkins)

 

Disclaimer: This was originally posted at MMA For Real here.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 56 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Well written

A bit of constructive criticism, if you don’t mind.. It’s a bit long-winded. The retrospective material maybe could have been consolidated into a single lead-in paragraph (given that the readers here are already pretty savvy on history as it relates to boxing & MMA, and I personally found myself skimming it). And maybe be more opinionated to encourage discussion.

Just my two cents. Good work d00d.

Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"

by Blackout612 on Mar 4, 2010 6:21 PM EST reply actions  

Thanks, broseph

Was kind of going for this “sum of where we’re at” deal, with all the back story. The long-windedness will never go away, lol, I’ve try to devote myself to a Hemingway style for years but I just frikkin can’t get it. But one thing I did learn from working at a mid-sized newspaper is to always write with the notion that your audience hasn’t heard what you’re talking about. In an article, you have to cram this into maybe two paragraphs at most after your anecdotal lead. I allowed myself considerable breathing room here, hahah

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, I don’t mind reading long articles one bit, but have worked on a lot of web media projects in the past, and it’s pretty commonly accepted that a lot of people just refuse to ingest anything that doesn’t give them instantaneous gratification. Broadband internet is too damn fast, and people are too damn anxious. Don’t change a thing if you’re comfortable with it, just providing my take. And don’t get me wrong, very well written stuff. Look forward to seeing more.

Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"

by Blackout612 on Mar 4, 2010 7:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks dude

And I’ll totally take your suggestions into account next time. Great point about people not wanting to ingest stuff

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 7:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Which is weird because my girlfriend only ingests things that give ME instant gratification.

Do you see what I did? I’m amazing. Hey, everyone! Come see how good I look!

by MauiPimpin on Mar 4, 2010 8:18 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks man

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 6:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Wow, that’s two Star Wars pics in two posts…kind of weird…

Good article though.

by Captain7 on Mar 6, 2010 3:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Excellent Post!

And with a nice invitation for debate and comment, well done!

by xAtlasx on Mar 4, 2010 7:21 PM EST reply actions  

¡muchos gracias!

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Solid first post. Putting that English Major to good use man.

My only criticism is the same as Blackout’s in that it’s very lengthy which can mean difficulty with keeping interest. But please write more. You’re very good at it.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Mar 4, 2010 8:01 PM EST reply actions  

much appreciated

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 8:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Is this offered in a paperback form?

JK bro it’s awesome. Great job.

by MauiPimpin on Mar 4, 2010 8:20 PM EST reply actions  

Not yet, but the audiobook is available now.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I want my money back

You’re slurring badly and clearly very drunk from Evan Williams. Sounds a bit like Ron Burgundy, even..

Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"

by Blackout612 on Mar 4, 2010 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Must be a leather-bound audiobook that smells of rich mahogany.

by ufc4 on Mar 4, 2010 11:36 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

LOL

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Milk was a bad choice!

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 11:45 PM EST up reply actions  

thanks, btw!

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

And Steve Jennum is kickass. Because of the way he can kickass (yeah I kept it one word. So what, wanna fight about it?).

by MauiPimpin on Mar 4, 2010 8:28 PM EST reply actions  

Excellent!

That’s exactly all I want too, for people to just watch it unfold instead of straight up bashing Toney and the UFC for making the move. No way to know how this will end up.

FWIW, I believe Schilt as always been extremely underrated in MMA.

"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni

by midwestbred on Mar 4, 2010 8:57 PM EST reply actions  

I agree

A great kickboxer with surprisingly competent ground game. He subbed Gan McGee (FWIW) and I was shocked at how he didn’t get his arm immediately ripped off by Nog

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

I think White wants to start bridging the gap between boxing and MMA at least with the atheletes first. This could be a srat for some very decent boxers choosing MMA over being just another descent boxer.

There must be a lot of good boxing propects that might not ever make it to the big pay days in boxing but could goto MMA is they are young enough to learn some grappling..

by Beren on Mar 4, 2010 9:51 PM EST reply actions  

Did someone edit the alignment of the picture?

If so, thanks! It looks much better.

If not, WTF?!?!?

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:12 PM EST reply actions  

yes.

I thought it would look better and hopefully make more people read it.

If you don’t like it, I can change it back. :)

by Anton Tabuena on Mar 4, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah, it's totally legit dude

Thanks bro

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

if you want to change it for your next fanposts,

click the HTML view, then look for the image, and when you see class=“photo”, just change it to class=“right photo” or whatever alignment you want. (right, left, center)..

if you don’t want that white border, just erase the ‘photo’, and leave it like class=“right” or whichever alignment you want. Hope that helps. :)

by Anton Tabuena on Mar 4, 2010 10:21 PM EST up reply actions  

damn, that was awesome and kinda freaky at the same time… as i posted my question, your answer came up

thanks Anton

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:23 PM EST up reply actions  

how did you resize the photo?

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:24 PM EST up reply actions  

are you using mozilla?

just drag and resize it from the corner like how you do in paint…

If it’s Mozilla, the dimensions/proportions stay the same, but if it’s IE (which sucks balls anyway) the dimensions get fucked up… In Chrome, you can’t resize it that way (but Chrome is awesome). haha.

by Anton Tabuena on Mar 4, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Safari 4, which is the the bomb-diggity

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

can you drag there too?

I think that’s like google chrome in that you can’t resize photos in BE.

by Anton Tabuena on Mar 4, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

If you don’t mind, what’s the class for right indent?

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:22 PM EST up reply actions  

oh, me sow hoooorny!

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ve been watching this on loop for 45 minutes.

Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"

by Blackout612 on Mar 4, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

i just came out of trance to reply to you

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 4, 2010 11:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Where can hit Slow-mo??

"For your information, I would like to ask a question."
-Samuel Goldwyn

by fedorade on Mar 5, 2010 2:54 AM EST up reply actions  

Deo, you are a genius.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Mar 5, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm in a giving mood


Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade

by Damon O. on Mar 5, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I’m gonna be a god on 4chan with this.

"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."

by spectaa on Mar 23, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Kimbo by Final Atomic How a Nigga Eat

by inadvertentgroinstrike on Mar 5, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions  

LMFAO

Best Signature Move Name Evah!!!

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade

by Damon O. on Mar 5, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Great post. I tend to skim some articles but this one pulled me in. Keep ’em coming!

by Mikek83 on Mar 5, 2010 6:26 AM EST reply actions  

appreciate it, dude

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 5, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Good work. Thanks for posting.

by moconne6 on Mar 5, 2010 5:15 PM EST reply actions  

thanks man

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 5, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

nice read RDS, thx, good stuff.

also thanks to Deo Wade.

by kovy on Mar 5, 2010 8:35 PM EST reply actions  

thanks hombre!

im just happy i got one rec haha

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 6, 2010 9:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

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