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Updated: UFC 111 Fallout: Rousimar Palhares Suspended, Kurt Pellegrino Rewarded

Should Kurt Pellegrino's slam of Fabricio Camoes be illegal?

Rousimar Palhares won his fight with Tomas Drwal at UFC 111, but nobody's really happy with him, from Sherdog:

(New Jersey State Athletic Control Board Counsel) Nick Lembo said he did not think Palhares intended to hurt Drwal with a heelhook that wrenched the Polish fighter's ligaments from the knee down and caused him to wail in pain in a scene replayed at countless speeds and angles during the UFC 111 pay-per-view broadcast on Saturday.

But Palhares did not properly heed referee Kevin Mulhall's physical and verbal instructions to relinquish the hold, Lembo said, and thus has been issued a 90-day disciplinary suspension. ...

Lembo said his review of the tape of Saturday's fight showed that Mulhall told Palhares to stop and tugged on him three times as he was in the throes of the submission.

Palhares spoke for himself to MMA Junkie:

"Unfortunately, there have been cases in the past where guys have tapped and then said they hadn't tapped. This happened in a match in the UFC between my trainer, Murilo Bustamante, and Matt Lindland. Our attitude is to hold the position until the ref interrupts to avoid this happening to us again."

"I did not think the suspension was fair," Palhares said. "I did not have any intent of hurting Drwal. It was in the heat of battle, and I wanted to make sure I did not lose the position. I was just waiting for the ref to interrupt the match."

Steve Cofield points out that the NJSACB looked at some of Palhares' previous fights from Brazil (videos in the full entry) and argues that the UFC might not want to keep this guy around:

The suspension isn't much of a penalty because it's unlikely that Palhares was going to be scheduled again in the next three months unless he was an injury fill-in. That said, something had to be done. In the past, Renato "Babalu" Sobral was sent packing by the UFC for holding a choke too long on David Heath. That said, Babalu admitted after the fight that he did it on purpose plus he was on the downside of his career. With Palhares, opponent's beware, the guy doesn't appear to be learning his lesson.

For my part, I think Palhares was correctly suspended and sanctioned by the NJSACB. Sure the suspension won't actually hurt him since he wasn't likely to fight in the next three months anyway, but the stigma is very real. Other athletic commissions, future opponents, the press and the UFC will all be watching Palhares closely going forward. And that's a good thing because his trade mark heel hooks are the most dangerous submission holds to be applying too long. We don't need to see a bunch of destroyed knees in the Octagon. Palhares needs to learn to let go when the ref pulls him off. Gif in the full entry so you can see for yourself.

Which brings us to the other fight from UFC 111 that is drawing some controversy, Kurt Pellegrino's slam of Fabricio Camoes. The slam was part of a come back that culminated with Pellegrino locking in a Submission of the Night winning choke hold on Camoes. Fightlinker thinks that was an illegal move:

If you're like me, you were probably wondering "Aren't head spikes illegal?" And yep, according to both the UFC and New Jersey, "spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck" is listed as a foul. I think we all agree that face plant definitely could have caused the neck trauma that this rule was meant to prevent, but most people have squared things away by saying Pellegrino was escaping a submission, this ain't [insert pussy sport here], and if you put yourself into that kind of position, you better expect to get what's coming to you.

With most of my jits drama tied up with the Palhares situation, I don't have a super strong opinion on this one. But it seems pretty clear to me that the rules say ‘no spiking', not ‘no spiking when'. As easily as you can argue that Camoes shouldn't have put himself into that position if he didn't want to be spiked, you could argue that he only stayed there because he assumed Pellegrino was going to follow the fucking rules and not spike him. Those saying Camoes could have let go of the sub to avoid being spiked - does this mean we can now foul attacking opponents any time and it's their fault for not stopping the foul?

Personally I think Fightlinker is making a bit much of nothing here. I think the kinds of spikes that are banned are those where the spiking fighter has full control of his opponent which was not the case with Pellegrino whose opponent had his back. Gif of this one in the full entry too.

UPDATE: Nik Lembo of the NJSACB writes to clarify why the Pellegrino slam was legal by sending along the specific rule:

Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)

A pile driver is considered to be any throw where you control your opponent's body placing his feet straight up in the air with his head straight down and then forcibly drive your opponent's head into the canvas or flooring material.

It should be noted that when a fighter is placed into a submission hold by their opponent, if that fighter is capable of elevating their opponent they may bring that opponent down in any fashion they desire because they are not in control of their opponents body. The fighter who is attempting the submission can either adjust their position, or let go of the hold before being slammed to the canvas.

Perfect. Thanks to Mr. Lembo for writing in and straightening that out. The rule is perfect IMO as well.

111_medium

Star-divide

Palhares-subs-drwal_medium Method_get_s_kurt-pellegrino-camoes_medium

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Palhares gif via  MMATKO.com. Pellegrino gif via the UG.

Cofield tracked down the other fights where Palhares held onto submissions too long: 

The New Jersey Athletic Control Board reviewed past incidents against Flavio Luiz Moura (4:35 mark) and Helio Dipp (2:00 mark).



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The slow motion replay of the Pelligrino slam makes me nauseous. That was some dangerous shit right there.

Being overrated is overrated.

by bobby g on Mar 30, 2010 4:17 PM EDT reply actions  

damnit this is fucking cagefighting.

You live the life, you pay the price.

by TyTy on Mar 30, 2010 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

What do you think of the slams that Hughes did to Carlos Newton or Rampage did on Arona?

by chrisbboy82 on Mar 30, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

those weren't head spikes

at all.

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by Nate Wilcox on Mar 30, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about Randleslam?

by Polyhedron on Mar 30, 2010 6:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Suplexes are legal

A spike is when you have someone’s head already pointing at the ground, and you just drop your weight on them. This is what Marquardt did to Leites, and IMO what Pellegrino did to Camoes. It’s a gray area though, and the ref didn’t call it, so this one fell through the cracks, but I think this is an issue that needs to be adressed.

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by ElliotMatheny on Mar 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

They may not be head spikes, but head did meet canvas and KOed the recipient. Personally, I am really not against what Batman did to Camoes, but I was curious to see what others thought of it.

by chrisbboy82 on Mar 30, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah but even though both slams give impact to the head, a head spike cam result in permanently being crippled. there is a pro wrestler (droz I think) that became a quadrapalegic as a result of a botched piledriver. even wwe doesn’t allow headspikes in their “fake” wrestling.

smashing head directly down into spine is a bad idea

by nogroundgame on Mar 30, 2010 7:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

"wwe doesn’t allow headspikes in their "fake" wrestling"

One of their top draws, the Undertaker, his finishing move is a head spike to the canvas. Every time someone does a DDT, that’s potentially a head spike to the canvas.

The WWE does allow it.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh ok, my bad then, I do know for sure they were banned for quite a while, when even the undertaker switched to using a powerbomb.

by nogroundgame on Mar 30, 2010 7:21 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Last time I watched WWF they switched Undertakers last move into a “choke slam from hell”.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then he started this modded gogoplata…which IMO was stupid and even made it to the wiki entry.

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by ludakrish on Mar 30, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Taker did all 4 of those moves on sunday night to beat Shawn Michaels! it was the 2nd Tombstone that won the Match. He also wears the 4oz golves.

HI YAH!

by Thats It For you! on Mar 31, 2010 7:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Their knees or arms hit the canvas

not their opponents, it’s up to them to finish the move.

by Akatalinich on Mar 31, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

The WWE doesn’t allow piledriver like moves. Pretty much the Tombstone is the exception but usually the person getting tombstoned has their head positioned above The Undertaker’s knees so it’s easier to keep their heads from hitting the mat, and DDTs are really more about landing on your forehead rather than on the top part of your head.

"That's right I'm into hardcore crack, that's why my teeth are so bad"

by Fake Emcee on Mar 31, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, Droz became that way from a botched running powerbomb (or liger bomb) given by D-Lo Brown, and the powerbomb is the same move that both Rampage did to Arona and Hughes did to Newton.

by chrisbboy82 on Mar 30, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

These guys agree with you

"Well... You're damned if you do, and You're damned if you don't."- Bart Simpson

by poundnground on Mar 30, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

i would call those KO's from illeagal headbutts

Watch the tapes.

"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.

by Rayce. on Mar 31, 2010 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

It is an illegal move.

I’m totally with Fightlinker on this one. Camoes had every reason to expect that he wouldn’t be spiked from that position. Pellegrino should have been disqualified.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Mar 30, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

NO

KP did’nt use any hands so how did he spike Camoes.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

He did hold Camoes wrists with his hands. But I agree, completely legal.

by David_ on Mar 30, 2010 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your right I mistaked KP hand at the end there for Cameos.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

The key word is control

When you are mounted on someones back, you have an obligation to control their movement to a reasonable degree. If you watch the gif above Camoes could see where he was going and had ample opportunity to put his hands out and block the slam attempt. Pellegrino did not have that luxury and was more concerned with stopping a fight ending submission. But there has to be inherent consequences for some of these sub attempts and standing mounts, particularly if you don’t have darn good control.

by SimplePsych on Mar 31, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately no one in the post fight press conference for 111 asked Dana anything about Paul Harris, therefore, the only people having issues with this is the internet media. I don’t think the message will be getting through him with a 90 day suspension, I agree 100% with Cofield, who funny enough Dana asked at the end of the press conference if he had any questions (because of the Mir/death thing) and he did not address the issue there.

Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension

by Orcus on Mar 30, 2010 6:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Palharas just lost me as a fan. This is a regular thing with him. He should be kicked out of the UFC. He crippled that dude he fought at 111

by J_Maddux on Mar 30, 2010 6:35 PM EDT reply actions  

No damage

He held the hold so that there was no question of a stoppage, but he didn’t turn it to cause damage.

When we consider that it’s VERY easy to cause damage with a heel hook, that’s actually pretty impressive.

It seems like this was more like what Frank Mir did to Brock the first time they fought.

by Shaun32887 on Mar 31, 2010 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

That is so ridiculous.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn’t it turn out that his opponent wasn’t even injured?

That doesn’t excuse keeping the hold on, but let’s not get carried away.

by JRN on Mar 30, 2010 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

No. It turned out that there was no bone damage. No word yet on cartilage damage.

by thekiltedwonder on Mar 30, 2010 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

1) yes, we’re lucky that Camoes didn’t suffer a broken neck.

2) I don’t think the intention was “I’m going to spike him on the top of his head.” I think it’s really hard to consider something a foul when you can’t really tell the exact position of your opponent. And it’s also very difficult to tell if his intention was to spike him on top of his head. He may have been trying to drop him on his shoulder to get the arms to move. I’m also curious what Pellegrino is supposed to do in that situation? Flatten himself out?

Maybe I missed it, but unless Pellegrino said his intention was to spike the top of Camoes’ head into the mat, I don’t feel too strongly on this one other than being glad that he isn’t seriously injured.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 30, 2010 6:36 PM EDT reply actions  

What was he supposed to do? No idea. But an illegal move isn’t the answer.

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Mar 30, 2010 6:40 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Do you really believe Kurt was trying to perform an illegal move or just doing something very instinctual in order to escape a submission and not lose the fight?

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

If someone instinctively stomps on someone else’s head I hope they get banned.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's a really poor argument

And doesn’t relate in any way shape or form to this particular situation. I don’t really understand what you want Kurt to do in this situation. Fighters are instructed to defend themselves at all times and that is precisely what he was doing.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I just think what he did was against the rules and that he did it on purpose. I think he shrewdly swung his weight forward so that Fabricio’d let go.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s an incidental spike that occurred while a fighter was trying to escape a submission. Should we punish every nutshot, even if it’s incidental?

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

So....

Lifetime ban for Kongo? Or electric chair?

by ufc4 on Mar 30, 2010 9:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

If you're in a position where the only way to escape it is to break the rules

then you should stay in the position. And yes, maybe lose the fight, but just like you can’t gouge some guy’s eyes to get him to release a choke, you can’t spike him either.

I like using semi-colons; they make me feel smart.

by Llewdor on Mar 30, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would really like to see the exact wording of the rule here because I’m of the belief that since Kurt didn’t have control of Camoes that it isn’t a spike. I think spike implies intent and control which I don’t see in this situation.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree. He did have control really, I mean he had a guy on his back and he took control when he decided to plummet his head into the canvas. I think he knew what he was doing, I mean, he can feel where his body is, where does he think his head is going to be?If someone’s on my back like that, and I plummet forward like that, he’s going to spike his head. I know this, and something should be done. A warning should be issued, or he should’ve been disqualified or something, because if you do nothing every dude is going to pull this same move quadriplegia be damned.

by Dooda on Mar 31, 2010 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Intent doesn't matter

It’s like when Gonzaga kicked Tuscherer full force in the junk. He was going for the inside thigh but missed. It’s still an illegal blow, regardless of intent. Whether Pellegrino was intending to drop the guy on his head or his shoulder doesn’t matter.

If Camoes had a broken neck or was knocked out as a result of the head spike, I’m pretty sure this would have been getting a lot more attention.

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Mar 30, 2010 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m okay if they would have stopped the fight for an accidental illegal maneuver. But I don’t think he should have been fined or suspended.

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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 30, 2010 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m with you Brent, I don’t see what Kurt could have done in that situation. I don’t think he was aware of Camoes’ position and I feel he really had only two choices, do something or lose the match.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

He knew which way up he was. If he wasn’t trying to dump Camoes on his head then what was he doing?

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

He could have been trying to slide him off the top alla Dan Hardy against GSP and got carried with momentum, he could have been trying to slam him on his shoulder, he could have been trying any number of things.

I find it really funny that you can defend Palhares holding a sub too long but find this non incident offensive.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think this should be considered a spike because at no time did Batman use he’s hands to controll or direct Camoe’s head into the mat.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is my feeling on it as well. The spike itself was incidental.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because that submission is legal and I think his being slow was an honest mistake.
Watching the fight what Kurt did didn’t seem like a mistake at all.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holding the submission when you have a tap, verbal instruction and physical instruction is definitely illegal.

by Worldisart on Mar 30, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was amazed that slam by Pellegrino wasn’t considered a foul. There’s been a lot of bad calls lately. What about Kongo kneeing Buentello in the head when his hand was planted and Herb Dean fucking ADMONISHED him for trying to draw a foul!

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Mar 30, 2010 6:38 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

That because he WAS trying to draw a foul.

That was some great reffing in that fight.

"The moment you stop thinking you're the best, it's time for you to get out the game." -'King' Mo Lawal

by duck on Mar 30, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I thought Herb dealt with that perfectly. You shouldn’t be allowed sneak your knee down to try have points deducted.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah man, gotta leave it to the ref to distinguish between the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule

by TyTy on Mar 30, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Was Paul trying to draw a foul, or trying to use the rules to prevent getting kneed in the head anymore? The first is impossible to prove, and the second happens with every single fighter in MMA. Is turning your head away from punches (so only the back is exposed) trying to draw a foul, natural instinct, or using the rules to your benefit so you stop taking head shots? I don’t know (or really care) what Paul’s intent was. But Dean doesn’t know either. I want the ref enforcing the rules, not what he thinks is the “spirit” of the rules.

by Grappo on Mar 31, 2010 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

He was trying to draw a foul

He was using his hands to fight off Kongo’s grip and then immediately dropping one to the ground any time he saw Kongo’s weight shift to one leg. If he was in a three point stance the whole time that would be different. He was waiting until after Kongo had already started to throw a legal strike to move his hand and make it illegal.

by Steve4192 on Mar 31, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

No… 1:45-1:38 of Rd. 2 – Paul was stuck in a bad position, and he got kneed in the head. He put his hand down and kept it there. He didn’t lift it up and put it back down right when the knew the strikes were coming. He put it down to stop Kongo from being allowed to knee his face anymore, and he kept it there.

I don’t blame Kongo for not noticing his hand was down. I blame Dean for not noticing until Paul had already eaten 3 knees to the head, and then chastising Buentello. Paul put his hand down, trusting the ref would see that and inform Kongo to watch the knees to head. At least that’s how I saw it.

by Grappo on Mar 31, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

and

he put his hand down right after he’d taken a knee to the face, not as Kongo was loading up, or even in the midst of throwing a strike.

by Grappo on Mar 31, 2010 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

It doesn't matter if he was trying to draw a foul

If his hand was planted it was an illegal blow.

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Mar 30, 2010 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

His hands weren’t planted. He was fighting Kongo’s grip with both hands and then dropping one any time Kongo rose his foot off the mat. Kongo threw the knee while Paul was in a two point stance and then Paul quickly dropped a hand after the knee was launched. He was definitely ‘playing the game’.

by Steve4192 on Mar 31, 2010 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

again, no

Paul got kneed, put his hand down (between strikes) and kept it down. Definitely trying to use the rules to his advantage, but not trying to draw a foul. Trying to stop from getting pummeled in the face by any more Kongo’s knees. I can sympathize.

Same as the back of the head argument. Fighter gets tagged in the face, and turns the back of his head toward your punches, and you have to hit him somewhere else. It happens in every single fight that goes to the ground. That’s not trying to draw a foul, that’s trying to limit your opponent’s offense, and the amount of damage you take.

by Grappo on Mar 31, 2010 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Herb did a superb job there

I think he called it “Playing the game.” Which is true- Kongo was kneeing Paul in the head, so Paul dropped the hand to the ground just to stop the knees with a technicality.

Herb separated the fighters but told Paul that it wasn’t Cheick’s fault, because Paul was playing the game.

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by ElliotMatheny on Mar 30, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish someone would have asked about the spike.

I would like to hear an official explanation from a ref/commission/promoter about that rule and the actual reason why this is legal (if it is).

One explanation I’ve heard is that Camoes could have avoided the situation by letting go.

by Phildo on Mar 30, 2010 6:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Palhares let go of the heelhook as soon as the ref finally got to him. The ref was just way too slow to get to him. There is no comparison between this and when the ref was TRYING to pull Babalu off from that choke.

by Polyhedron on Mar 30, 2010 6:39 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Palhares let go of the heelhook as soon as the ref finally got to him

No. No he didn’t.

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was like one second. I know seconds can do a huge amount of damage but still.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s not the time that is the problem, imo. It’s the fact that the ref pulled on him and he still didn’t let go.

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Palhares was’nt looking straight up thats why he had to realize that it was the ref and not Drwal

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

I MIGHT buy that is he didn’t have a history for doing this kind of stuff.

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t have to buy it the gif posted on this story shows me that.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

WHAT!

You can’t even see his face in the gif at all when the ref is pulling! not to mention Drawl was tapping WHILE the ref was pulling so unless Palhares thought Thomas grew an extra fucking arm during the fight there is no way possible he didn’t know that was the ref.

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Watch it all the way through the the second the tapping hand leaves his leg the ref’s hand goes to the same spot on the body. Plus right before the camera zooms in you can see whee Palhares head is.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

You sir, are delusional. He stops tapping AFTER the ref is pulling on the arm and just because you see Palhares head before the zoom doesn’t mean his head stayed there…. wtf?

by Chris Barton on Mar 31, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

As soon as? The ref pulled on his arms a couple of times. This is after he verbally told him to stop as well.

by MMAussie on Mar 30, 2010 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that happens all the time. He’s not going to go limp as soon as the ref touches him.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

That does not happen all the time…

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That happens really regularly.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Dude, no it doesn’t. And when it does happen the guy applying the hold to long usually gets in trouble… unless their name is BJ Penn.

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

With a lot of chokes it seems to take people a second to let go. There is no way this is as bad as what BJ did to Jens.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only…. you know… it’s worse, since this sub can do permanent damage if you don’t let go right away where the choke won’t.

by Chris Barton on Mar 30, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah I know but it’s still legal. All I meant was that he didn’t hold on maliciously and he didn’t hold on for as long.

If the ref had acknowledged that and been ready for a tap sooner we wouldn’t even be talking about this.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

It is obviously NOT legal. He got suspended.

by David_ on Mar 30, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I don’t think the fact it’s so dangerous should matter all that much in the UFC. If someone’s going for a kneebar should they not squeeze as hard as they would for a choke?

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

no, but the severity of damage should definitely be taken into account when talking about the reactions after a tap.

A broken arm or ripped ligaments after someone taps is much worse than someone passing out.

by Phildo on Mar 30, 2010 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeh but he should go limp with the guy vigorously tapping on his leg, the ref charging towards him, telling him to stop and then still having to rench on his arms to get him to stop.

You want to see how it should be done, see Lytle v Foster at UFC110.

by MMAussie on Mar 30, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not really disagreeing with you, sorry. It definitely was slow, but for a lot of reasons.
The ref was miles away and Palhares was only paying attention to the leg.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stop it with the verbal warning. Verbal warning does’nt cut it in a loud stadium in the heat of battle.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Air Horn. I’m totally serious. The ref needs a way to indicate to everyone that the fight is over, regardless of whether they’re looking at him or not.

by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 31, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not a bad idea, that. An air horn going off next to your ear would definitely get everyone’s attention.

by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Mar 31, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is the way it should be done:

"If I had a green shirt on, a pink shirt, a blue shirt, If I had a fuckin' tie-dyed Hawaiian shirt from 1952, Bobby still won that fight" Forrest Griffin

by StevenGiles on Mar 30, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions  

WOW, if he didn’t tuck his head in at the last second there he would have ended up being paralysed or dead!

by Ilias on Mar 30, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know it isn’t against the current rules, but it definitely should be IMO.

by David_ on Mar 30, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea, who would think you could get seriously hurt in a fight

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Mar 30, 2010 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

There’s getting hurt then there’s getting your neck snapped and being paralysed from the neck down for the rest of your life!

Also, not good to have something like that in the UFC if they want it to grow.

by Ilias on Mar 31, 2010 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

People are really overreacting about the Palhares thing, I think. Shame the guy was tapping for so long but you can’t blame Rousimar for holding on until the ref stepped in. If it was a choke it’d be different. Once the ref stepped in he loosened up a bit slow but we’ve seen much worse.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:39 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

That is horse shit

Walking the line between intelligence and ignorance since 1985
@deowade

by Damon O. on Mar 30, 2010 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Please enlighten me, which ones were “much worse”?

by ufc4 on Mar 30, 2010 10:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

BJ Penn/Jens Pulver 2

Babalu Sobral/David Heath

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Mar 30, 2010 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

So if the most recent one you can come up with was over 2 years ago and the guy got cut because of it I don’t see how people are overreacting to this. Everyone acting like this happens all the time is just way off base.

by ufc4 on Mar 30, 2010 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

you have never felt a heel hook or your wouldnt say that.

it snaps your acl a, your mcl ann your ankle. Its horrible.If they were gonna out law a move it should be that.

"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.

by Rayce. on Mar 31, 2010 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have felt a heel hook

It caused me to tear my MCL and not be able to train for 2 years. Sure I lifted and biked for the past 6 months but my knee still sometimes feels pretty weak. I just literally got back on the mats.

UFC4 asked for what I think is worse and I told him. I think holding a choke is worse. I gave two examples that came to mind.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Mar 31, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

This is turning into a broken record, with defenders claiming that he should hold on until the ref came in. The problem here is; HE KEPT UP THE DAMNED CRANKING AFTER THE REF TOUCHED THE FIGHTERS AND AFTER THE REF TRIED TO PRY OFF THE HOLD!

I mean he really should’ve stopped cranking as soon as he felt the tap and then just held it until the ref stopped it. But this f’n dude looked determined to break the damn thing. It was disgusting and frankly the people that defend him leave me speechless. It’s called submission for a reason. The other guy submits and that means you won. The key isn’t to break something. I get mad just thinking about it. Sobral was worse but of course I’d rather be choked a little too long then have my knee separated from it’s ligaments.

by Dooda on Mar 31, 2010 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Wow, i used to be a big fan of Palharas, but he just loves those extra couple of seconds. I was surprised that Drwals corner didn’t rush the cage like in the bottom video. If i saw someone do that to a close friend of mine I don’t think i would have been able to hold back. You could tell Rogan was so pissed off when he was interviewing him, and rightly so.

by MMAussie on Mar 30, 2010 6:40 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

I was a big fan of Palhares too, but thereæs no need for that. if sonmeone did that to me and I couldn’t train again I would have to seriouslt f them up.

by Ilias on Mar 30, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about all the guys that punch people in the head when they’re clearly unconscious?

Also, someone busting your leg in a bjj/mma school is totally different to being injured fighting at the pinnacle of this sport against a man with arms that look like legs.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I didn’t particularly like Hendo’s extra curricular shot on Bisping either, but a lot of fighters (Carwin) will look up at the ref before continuing to hit an obviously defenseless opponent.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Mar 30, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you. Rec’d. I can forgive one extra punch if you’re already wound up and swinging or not really sure the person is out. But blow after blow just sucks. It makes me so happy when a guy sees the other is unconscious and stops, likewise with submissions.

But submissions are freak’in dangerous man. I mean this guy might never train again. He might not be able to enjoy running with his dogs or lifting his wife or kids or whatever. I might be overdramatic, but I got a neck injury similar to what happend int eh Peligrino fight, It’s two years now and I still can’t lift weight without my neck flaring up.

by Dooda on Mar 31, 2010 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

For the love of God

Since a couple of people hicked up their skirts and went along with this ridiculous fascade about Palhares they have now opened the door for people to bitch about anything they perceive to be wrong. Now every time a fighters hurt we’ll have to listen to why we need more rules or governing.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:40 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

With Palhares’ past, it makes this situation worse. He might not have though of deliberately hurting Drwal but at the same time he didn’t try not to hurt him. He had plenty of time to let the hold go, and he didnæt even look at the ref once Drwal started tapping.

Don’t know if it’s a matter of sportsmanship or if it is actually foul play that requires a suspension. As it is not entirely clear that Palhares deliberately set out to hurt him.

Check out Sakuraba’s Kimura submission of Rubin Williams. Before he started to crack it he looked over to the ref as if to say “are you watching”.

Either way, Palhares doesn’t care if he hurts his opponents or not. To some people it’s a good thing. To me it’s very very bad, especially at that level.

by Ilias on Mar 30, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Most people aren’t as self-aware as Saku in the cage/ring.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll just rec yours.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Mar 31, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well heres two cool guys.

by darkside3744 on Mar 31, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

To me its just the position. He was rolling towards the floor which broke any sightline he may have had with the ref.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

there is a difference between a hula-hoop style defence and the spike defense batman does here and Melendez busted out on Ishida on NYE. Some one is gonna end up getting fucked up bad from one of these spikes if its not addressed.

YAMATO DAMASHII

by R.T. on Mar 30, 2010 6:42 PM EDT reply actions  

I definitely think Kurt dumped him on his head on purpose.
Palhares was just slow to release a perfectly legitimate submission, Batman broke the rules on purpose.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:45 PM EDT reply actions  

Batman only has one rule

and that’s the one he’ll have to break.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Mar 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both moves were perfectly fine. If some of you guys want to see patty cakes then go to your local school yard.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:48 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

If I wanted to watch fighting with no rules where careers are measured in months rather than years I’d go back in time in my fancy time machine.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good thing no rules were broken here and good luck on the time traveling thing.

by darkside3744 on Mar 30, 2010 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to both the UFC and NJAC, “the spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck” is listed as a foul. So im not sure where your coming from here

YAMATO DAMASHII

by R.T. on Mar 30, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thats too good. Rec’d.

by darkside3744 on Mar 31, 2010 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t get the top Palhares video… It looks like the ref’s involvement near the end is warning the other guy about the kicks to the head of a down opponent. He’s still warning him when he taps out. The ref never even made contact with Palhares to break the hold. Was Palhares supposed to break the hold before the ref moved to separate them?

by Stanlee on Mar 30, 2010 6:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeh i didn’t get that top video at all. Can’t really see what’s going on.

by MMAussie on Mar 30, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

the top video

was the ref’s fault, you’re right about the low kicks (to which he received a yellow card afterwards), but Shaulin Ribeiro did not make it clear the fight was over therefore it’s not Palhare’s fault.

Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension

by Orcus on Mar 30, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

He should be required to have the reaction time to release the hold within a tenth of a second of the official’s intervention! This is an outrage.

by Polyhedron on Mar 30, 2010 7:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

the top video

was not his fault

Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension

by Orcus on Mar 30, 2010 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paul Yaris

Hey Orcas, you should do a Portuguese pronunciation guide for mma fans. Maybe even Joe Rogan would read it and stop saying Paul Harris. Paul Yaris, people.

by dribblebib on Mar 30, 2010 9:32 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I guess that's close

the pronunciation for the L followed by the H sound is not in the English vocabulary though, but I like it like this, it makes topics more fun sometimes. Handy knows what I’m talking ’bout! :p

Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension

by Orcus on Mar 30, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

The bottom one is.

Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.

by Dave Strummer on Mar 30, 2010 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah

there is no denying there

Don’t let anger get in the way of comprehension

by Orcus on Mar 30, 2010 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Surprised

This was the first time I saw the Palhares thing and, after all the talk about it I’m honestly very surprised at the uproar. I expected much worse.

by dribblebib on Mar 30, 2010 7:04 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Can you throw a link to the source, just for shits and giggles?

You got a rec from me anyways, sir. Well done.

"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe

by pdl on Mar 30, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

That means it was the amendments that most state commissions (including NJ) ignored, but it doesn’t mean this info is useless.

To me, this shows that the spike rule was intended to ban pile drivers, not what happened here. That document says that fighters have been taught and instructed that no matter what the rule says, only pile drivers are banned. This was not a pile driver.

by Phildo on Mar 30, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, it was confusing figuring out what was passed and when, but I think I have it now.

I did say I didn’t know if it was 2008 or 2009 when it was passed. But it appears this is what the current rules are: http://www.abcboxing.com/unified_mma_rules.html

The only difference from what I posted is the following:

27.. Spiking the opponent to the canvas onto the head or neck (pile-driving)

The rest of the language is the same.

by Scott Sox on Mar 30, 2010 7:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

John McCarthy explained the rule as above in some radio or video interview that, for the life of me, I can’t find anymore.

Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Mar 30, 2010 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sorry, here's the post where I found the PDF

http://www.mmahq.com/blog/2008/07/04/mma-unified-rules-see-major-changes/

which also links to http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/Revamped-Rules-Expand-Weight-Divisions-13533

Now it says it was passed then, but I’ve read elsewhere it was passed in August 2009. I don’t know if that was a different set. It’s kind of hard to find out exact information.

And anyways I’m pretty sure the spiking rule was always interpreted this way, and this was just clarification.

by Scott Sox on Mar 30, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

"...because they are not in control of their opponents body."

To me that’s the underlying issue. Camoes’s body was not being controlled by Pellegrino, he had options open to him in order to avoid damage. Was Pellegrino’s attempt to shake Camoes potentially very dangerous? Yes, but this is mma we’re talking about and if Camoes had the choice to avoid the damage, the burden must be on him.

by Cocytus on Mar 30, 2010 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I stand fully corrected!

Totally legal move, Camoes was in a position to let go of the hold and didn’t, etc. etc.

I thank you for educating me, sir.

Get rid of the ramp!

by ihateemo on Mar 31, 2010 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't Tyson Griffin do that slam to both Clay Guida and Thiago Tavares?

New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett

by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 30, 2010 7:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah definitely.

by goo on Mar 30, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagreed with Fightlinker on that head spike as well. I’ve seen that type of spike happen several times before with no foul and always thought the rule applied to you when you had control of your opponent.

As for the heel hook, that guy definitely held on too long after the ref got to him and deserves anything they can do to give him a reprimand at this point.

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

by JeremyShane on Mar 30, 2010 8:11 PM EDT reply actions  

I have seen the Pelligrino style “spike” happen dozens of times in the UFC, why is it now all of the sudden a problem?

by Bakuto on Mar 30, 2010 8:59 PM EDT reply actions  

and doesn't faber do this shit when he butt drops?

Here’s how I look at it…if I’m riding a horse…and that horse is jumping off a cliff, if I don’t jump off then I’m an asshole.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Mar 30, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Concerning Pelligrino...

Okay, so even though its not illegal, it damn well ought to be. Sure, he coulda let go, but that shit is dangerous. Not worth the risk if you ask me. Can’t blame Kurt for doing it if its legal, since a lot rides on a win or a loss.

I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Champion of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!

by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 30, 2010 11:32 PM EDT reply actions  

High kicks are dangerous, banned. Knees to the head in the clinch, banned. Low kicks hit the groin often, banned.

Twitter: @Mike_Fagan_13
http://www.sackmikegoldberg.com

by Mike Fagan on Mar 30, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, because all of those things you just said can potentially injure the spine. Are you being serious. What a dopey thing to say.

by Dooda on Mar 31, 2010 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lets just abolish all rules then huh

Eye gouge, bite, pull hair, whatever.

I'm the best ever. You're the most average in a minute.
And NEW UFC Welterweight Runnerup of the World.....Dan "The Outlaw" Hardy!

by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 31, 2010 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Lets not make something outta nothing on this one.

Palhares got a slap on the wrist. He fights every three months or so anyways. Whatever. He should get a “Whip the dog” session by Dana on this one.

As for the Pellegrino face smash, There is a PROPER way to fall, be thrown, land and roll. Those are Judo and Jiu Jitsu Fundamentals (which would be awesome if we got a JUDO CHOP about now that this is relevant again). Camoes showed knowledge of some of that in his fight. ALL of the Pro’s who have been tossed know to tuck their Head to their chin and roll on the shoulder. It looked to me like Camoes fell asleep for a second and BAM! Pellegrino Capatilized

The Randleplex is a good example of it. Look at Fedor NOT die from a BRUTAL head spike.
The Kimbo Plex as well.
The Gif up above
The Fitch Pile Driver of Diego Sanchez.

All examples of guys doing the correct technique.

Camoes is the person responsible for almost breaking his neck

by BoneR on Mar 31, 2010 12:32 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Ippon Seoinage should be illegal?!?

I don’t understand the fuss regarding the Pellegrino situation. Similar situations are frequent occurences in Judo and BJJ competitions.

Kurt executed an Ippon Seoinage as a means of escaping back control. This is a pretty standard technique. Kurt can only be responsible for his throw; Camoes has the responsibility of knowing how to fall safely, just as is the case with any throw.

Ironically, Camoes executed an Ippon Seoinage earlier in the fight, as well. Had his throw been more successful, and led to Kurt head-planting, would anyone be complaining?

Camoes is a BJJ BB under Royler. He had to have known that the arm-trap-and-forward-roll was a possibility. He chose to keep his head high instead of tucking his chin in preparation.

Kurt’s defense was both legal and intelligent.

by Kung-Fu Joe on Mar 31, 2010 9:10 AM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Roddy said it best

Just as you can be spiked when performing an arm bar, you have choices. Either give up on the move or prepare for the consequences.

twitter.com/thisredengine

by Matthew Roth on Mar 31, 2010 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

exactly.

if you have the choke on, and the dude your choking transitions to that position, you HAVE to expect what happened the second your feet leave the ground….. in the octagon or outside a bar, lol.. KP held him like that for a bit, Camoes was staring down at the mat with plenty of time to adjust… he didnt, too bad for him.
“protect yourself at all times”

by blam!thud... on Mar 31, 2010 9:45 AM EDT reply actions  

I used to like Paul Harris ALOT

but he is in my list now.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Mar 31, 2010 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Anyone else ever notice...

on UFC Undisputed 2009 if you are a high-level wrestler like Hughes or Brock, and someone attempts a takedown, you can sprawl…pick them up…and piledriver them…I always thought that was pretty weird but never thought about it much until this topic came up in real-life.

"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke

"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth

One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.

by zakkree on Mar 31, 2010 10:25 AM EDT reply actions  

as far as i'm concerned

Not letting go of the rear naked choke is an equal opposite of of playing the game where you touch your knee down when someone is about to kick you in the face. Kurt peligrino didn’t force that guys head to the mat. That guy not letting go was his decision to get his face slammed into it.

So stop crying.

by adamdd on Mar 31, 2010 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

if anything...

They should have stopped the fight due to that dude not intelligently defending himself letting his face get slammed into the mat. lol

by adamdd on Mar 31, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

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