The Natural Tension Between Professionalism and the Athletes of Combat Sports
by Luke Thomas on Mar 2, 2010 12:00 PM EST
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But the UFC’s issue is not necessarily ours. The debate over what language is permissible is not an idle one, but the MMA community must come to grips with the reality that there will always be a natural tension between professionalism and combat sports as it relates to the language and behavior of participating athletes. This isn’t to suggest any behavior or language is acceptable. However, in the greater context of other statements by other fighters and any potential blowback they could generate, Mir’s words don’t merit outrage. And more to the point, Mir’s statement is hardly groundbreaking and will not be the last instance of direct death wishes by notable fighters.
First, Mir is not a moral criminal. There is nothing in Mir’s statement relative to other statements by other fighters or boxers that uniquely tramples ethical concerns. To the extent our own personal subjectivity was offended, I suppose there’s room for revulsion. However, suggesting that the specificity of Mir’s remarks confers upon it a unique terribleness is nothing more than trying to force a distinction without any substantive difference. That Mir’s statements may lend themselves more to use by MMA’s detractors is partly true, but that’s an issue of pragmatism, not moral line-stepping. The often repeated argument that there was some absolutist demarcation Mir callously crossed is neither the central issue nor coherent. The truth is that comments directed toward in-cage actions have no hard and fast parameters of ethical conduct. The projection of personal standards as absolute moral maxims is neither helpful to the debate nor usable on a broader scale.
Second, this entire exercise in outrage fails to appreciate the eccentricities of Frank Mir. Mir is a fan and practitioner of nuance. And due to natural ability, he’s also a first-rate fight promoter. His specificity in language is expressed no matter the subject or situation, and in this particular case, it serves as his conduit to deliver pre-fight theatre. Unless he tries to make good on his stated intentions, Mir’s expressed wish for Lesnar’s death is little more than a thickening of the plot to Mir vs. Lesnar 3.
The true threat of Mir’s comment, to the extent one actually exists, is merely a function of the existing regulatory climate. With the UFC investing time and money into legalization efforts in key states where the struggle to achieve state sanctioning has neither been quick nor painless, Mir’s statements come at an inopportune time.
If we are worried about negative impact and perception, time is better spent deflating the impact of fighters' statement than regulating them outright. And ascribing absolute literalism absent any track record of impropriety is awfully suggestive. This isn't to claim there is nothing out of bounds - a debate the community has really not at all settled - but through containment and distinguishing the reality of the fight business from the irrational statements of fighters, we create a robust insurance policy that still allows for theatre. That is something the fight business can use to great benefit.
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you guys are on point today
Great article, I once again couldn’t agree more with the author. The only thing mir did wrong is speak with precise precision. He must have picked that up from Goldberg. Mir is still a dick, he just isn’t evil.
by Rayce. on Mar 2, 2010 12:15 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I’m amazed that people felt offended by Mir’s “death wishes”. To me it sounded like a simple exaggeration. First he expressed that fighters are histrionically polite and then, in his own style, listed all the bad things fighters want to do in the ring. Rhetoric, that’s all.
by dancingChicken on Mar 2, 2010 12:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Reading that, I was wondering what Sherdog writer penned it
while thinking “This sounds just like Luke…” You certainly have a style my friend.
And while I was uncomfortable with Mir’s remarks, I was not outraged. If he had gone Babalu on somebody before or had late hits in multiple fights a la Soko, we’d have a very different situation.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 2, 2010 12:27 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Nobody was outraged
And the continued insistence that people (in any general sense) were is sort of baffling.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
I guess you missed the 400+ comments on the stories here
where jemaledin [sp?] was either defending Mir or attacking BJ and Brock, most likely the latter, and lots of people were getting pretty worked up about it.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I participated in many of the threads
Seemed like a minor distaste with his choice of words. I haven’t seen anyone call for him to be fined, or even to make the apology he was asked to. It was just a stupid comment and that’s the overwhelming tone of the comments sections I’ve seen. I don’t really see the need to continually revisit the topic, particularly in this manner (“why so srs?”). The horse is dead.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
The horse may be dead
but we all still have clubs and don’t seem to care about Marcus Davis.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 2, 2010 1:01 PM EST up reply actions
Right
I also don’t think that situation is much of a parallel. It’s easy to believe Mir, given how consumed he is with avenging his loss to Lesnar. There’s a lot of disdain there and when he says something about wanting to murder Lesnar in so specific a way, it’s easy to believe him. It’s like saying you want to kill your boss and then nervously chuckling. People are going to shush you a bit. I don’t care for Mir’s antics in recent years, but I’m not exactly advising Brock to get additional security, or train to defend the pile driver (I’ll be worried if Harley Race shows up in the fifth round, but by then it’ll be too late). It was just a reflection of Mir’s all-consuming obsession with a third match with Brock, and as unattractive a comment it was to make, it mostly serves to raise interest in the fight.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Oh, it's not much of a parallel at all
aside from both being categorized as tasteless comments. I meant to imply that we have itchy clubbin’ hands and we just can’t bring ourselves to care about Davis.
I’m right with you on the rest of it though. As stated above, this isn’t Babalu, Soko, or Rampage here. Lesnar is in no more danger than he is against any BJJ fighter who likes breaking stuff. And although the trending reaction was “Ugh… really dude?” that doesn’t mean there weren’t a good chunk of people to categorize as “outraged.” They just tended to be one off comments and not really support their positions.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 2, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
What Davis said was also stupid but not nearly as “bad” as Mir’s statement because what Mir said could actually happen by his own hands if he decided to break the rules. If Hardy died of AIDS, that would be his fault alone for engaging in risky behavior. If Davis was Hardy’s doctor or nurse, then there would be reason for concern.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Mar 2, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll be worried if Harley Race shows up in the fifth round, but by then it’ll be too late
nice.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
I knew you’d catch that..
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
My grandpa was the biggest Terry Funk fan. The only time I ever heard him spew as much vitriol over someone other than Harley Race was in regard to Newt Gingrich or OJ Simpson.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Hahaha
Partly off topic; but the funniest thing I’ve ever heard a Japanese announcer say was Terry Funk’s name before the Funk/Foley exploding death match.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
looking for vid now
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Let me know if you're successful
If I had it on DVD, I’d rip it for you, but all of my old Japanese wrestling matches are on VHS.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Luke's writing style
pragmatism, demarcation, absolutist, cancerous pathology, histrionics, repudiation, onerous, consternation, precipitously, hectoring, exacerbates, etc.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Mar 2, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t say they’re hard words. They’re just words that people rarely use. It makes him come across as “elitist” as some have said or like he’s trying too hard to sound intelligent. I’m sure he is, but it doesn’t come across that well, especially when it’s in articles about a sport that involves two people trying to “kill” each other. I’m sure Luke could make his last bowel movement sound intricate and important too.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Mar 2, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
LOL. I actually prefer people to go ahead and use “the big words” as long as they do it well. With a broader vocabulary, greater variety and subtlety in tone is possible. I get more annoyed when people use the same words over and over to describe completely different things, emotions, or states of mind. It’s cool though, I am a critic as well. I used to think that all the email, texting, reading the interwebz, etc., would lead to better writing by a wider section of the population. Oh well:)
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 2, 2010 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe, if he were saying something with which I agreed, I’d like his article more. Also, he’s too loquacious. Does that word give you a surgation?
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Mar 2, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
I become quite loquacious
after imbibing copious quantities of libations.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
by pdl on Mar 2, 2010 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
You’ll have to do better than that:) But please don’t try!!!
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 2, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions
You think it didn’t come across that well, I thought it was the best piece written about the so-called “controversy”.
He excellently revealed the non-story behind it all.
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 2, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
I was never “outraged,” but it’s not a non-story.
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Mar 2, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
imo (for a guy who never fought professionally), respect in fighting
will always be a hard idealogy to grasp. When you are about to face a guy who wont give you an inch of mercy once you enter the ring/cage, respect is the last thing that I can think of. Being trained for weeks to knock your opponent unconscious, twist their limbs towards submission and choke them out, I say wrath is the nature of combat sports. Athletes are somewhat expected to respect each other, but when we demand them to immobolize each other, we should understand the emotions running thru their veins.
I can appreciate the Franklins and Fedors of the sport, but not everybody can handle the pressure like them.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
I never was outraged by what Mir said. I just thought it was a very stupid thing to say. It makes people dislike him more, makes him look somewhat crazy/unstable, and adds fuel to Lesnar’s fire (if it wasn’t planned hype).
by MMAInFeRioRiTy on Mar 2, 2010 12:31 PM EST reply actions
Every strip club bouncer I have ever met has been at least a little crazy.
Lets not forget Mirs other career.
by Rayce. on Mar 2, 2010 12:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
also
I always root for Mir. Except for the nog fight. I love submissions. He is a pretty solid bjj Guy. I couldn’t hate him if I wanted to.
by Rayce. on Mar 2, 2010 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
He's a remarkably skilled competitor
Who could probably be a multiple time defending champ if Lesnar wasn’t around. Shit, he might be a legend if he never got in that motorcycle accident. I understand if people don’t like what he spouts off, but I’ll always be a fan (unless he actually locks on a RNC on Lesnar and doesn’t let go).
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Im somewhat in the middle.
I dont think Mir really wants Lesnar to be killed in a fight but there is a genuine hate in there. I can see Mir as a very proud guy and the beating he got from Lesnar was just hard to get over. He is so focused on defeating Lesnar again he wanted to be big. When you are talking about a guy that you are not about to fight, you just know he hates the damn guy. The series of comments Mir about Lesnar have been lashing out after 100 is countless, that, imo, shows Frank needs avenge his pride, not for his fans but for himself,
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
Great article
The only problem with Mir’s comments was that they were colorful enough to potentially catch the attention of a public already predisposed to think of MMA as bloodsport. While there is something to be said for expecting Mir to be an ambassador for MMA, it seems ridiculous to take his comments as anything other than fight hype, particularly in light of his record for sportsmanship in the ring.
Tatum: I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but I'm definitely gonna make orphans of his children.
Off topic, but...
My college buddy just did a hatchet job on MMA for NBC 4(DC), I was looking for Luke’s multi-part unbraiding of the Virginia Athletic commission but i can not seem to find it. Anyone?
From now on whatever event I am planning will be know as the ‘Bas Rutten Invitational ____’
I saw
It was unbelievable. I’m on it.
Just use the search bar for articles, but the problem is that amateur MMA isn’t regulated in Virginia. That guy was damaged because the stoppage was horrendous.
Got any contact info?
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Can’t find it. Found the articles on the two AC reversals and the Ben Saunders article, but not your multi-piece. I have my email to him written with a heavy suggestion that he get in contact with you, but i wanted to include those links.
From now on whatever event I am planning will be know as the ‘Bas Rutten Invitational ____’
I don’t take offense to what Mir says, I just think it’s hypocritical to say “Brock Lesnar is bad for the sport” and then a month later to say “I hope he is the first man to die in the Octagon, and I want to be the one who kills him”. What Mir said would definitely cast a larger shadow over MMA in the eyes of the mainstream media than whatever Brock said at 100. Can you imagine the headlines if that had been picked up by CNN? “Psychotic cage fighter predicts death of future opponent”. Then if they made the connection between Frank commenting at WEC events and tried to tie him to Zuffa, it could read “Zuffa employee wants to kill his future opponent”. Just all around not the right press that MMA needs right, what with the UFC trying to get MMA sanctioned in NY.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
I suggest to listen to that interview once again. His comment had a context.
by dancingChicken on Mar 2, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
Since when has ever stopped a mainstream news outlet from publishing outlandish, misinformed articles? How many Fox anchors call Obama an outright socialist? I read the transcript brah, I know what he said and how it was meant. I suggest you read my comment once again, especially the part where I said I don’t take offense to what Mir said, it’s just mildly amusing.
"It’s going to be like sex with a grizzly bear, you know, a lot of scratching and growling on both sides." - Don Frye
No, it didn't
It’s like setting up a racist joke. It was in poor taste.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
Yes, it was in a poor taste, but I perceived his comment as an exaggeration (not the first one he made: “I want his lungs to cave in”, etc.")and not a death wish.
Before the fight with Kongo, Mir said that he wants to end his career as a professional athlete, but in other interview stated that he wants to choke him out, because Kongo is a tough guy and probably wont tap to a armbar, which could cause serious injury.
by dancingChicken on Mar 2, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
people say that Mir is an Unsuccessful heel...
But I always remembered there being different types of Heels… There were bad guys that talked shit well, and prolly made u laugh (The Rock as a Heel), and then there just guys that were really unlikeable (Hunter Hearst Helmsley, William Regal etc) and people really wanted to see them lose…
People really want to see Mir lose… Its like, anything and everything he says pisses someone off lol. People will find any way they can to bash him, and discredit his accomplishments, as they root for him to lose…
He is the epitome of a fighter that people love to hate….
In Regards to the article:
As someone said Luke, you do have a distinct writing style… either that or I’m just used to reading your articles at this point. I seem to be looking at the situation more from your point of view, than the view that his vocab somehow inherently showed more intent than using words such as Kill, Death, and Murder, etc…. I think at this point fight fans (and people in general) are just more desensitized to those cliches. Mir’s use of detail in addition to the fact that he is known by his detractors as a Brock Stalker, and his skill set revolves around bone-breaking BJJ prowess could only result in some obvious backlash… In the end he basically put his foot in his mouth, but I don’t think it was anything more than that.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
I take your title to mean this is in reference to my article
In which the point was clearly to designate which heels build heat in a manner that makes people like them for it.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
If it wasn't in reference to that
Nevermind.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
I think people read your article and ran with it..
but I wasn’t referring to you directly… I remember the distinction you made.
I'm like PacMan fightin you silly kids... throw ya Hatton the ring, and get knocked outlike Ricky did.
lol.
It was a perfect storm of what he said and how he said it.
Fighters just need to keep the following grouping of words from being included in the same sentence. First death in the octagon.
Saying you want to kill your opponent is fine. Saying you want to break, damage, destroy, etc your opponent is fine as well. NFL players want to destroy the opposing team, why can’t MMA fighters?
That's big news
source?
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
it’s one of those six degrees of separation things. Heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend who knows the guy. I wasn’t sure if this was true and since BE seems to have someone on the site that knows what up, I was hoping someone could verify or dispel this. Sorry, not trying to be a rumor monger but I guess if no one knows for sure, we’ll see on the next broadcast.
Oh for the love of all that is holy already…… who cares!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a topic that has been beaten to death and then resurrected only to be beaten to death again. Is there anything else going in in the world of MMA other than Frank Mir saying stupid things and Fedor’s idiot managers? Anything??
“Who cares?” is a question, not a declarative statement. At least not from a technical grammar point of view.
Follow me on Twitter: @MMANation.
Wiat, what?!!
Since when did Frank say that?
NO WAY!!
R U SRS?
[/sarcasm owns you]
by JAYGK95 on Mar 2, 2010 7:22 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Mir is a "practitioner of nuance" Really?
Not to pick nits, but Frank is a “a fan and practitioner of nuance.” Really?
The man misuses language more than any fighter this side of Tito. He tries to flaunt his knowledge of big words, but half the time he effs it up, or just ends up sounding like a tool.
I’m amazed that people put Mir up on a pedestal – he claims he’s a “true martial artist,” and always talks about how intelligent he is etc. etc., but he don’t back it up.
(Not that there is anything wrong w/ trash-talk. Just pointing out the hypocrisy.)
I agree about Mir's foibles with the English language
He often strains himself looking for a bigger word when a common one is readily brain-accessible to him, and also regularly paces out his speech in an effort to afford himself additional time to sound as intelligent as possible. It’s remarkably obvious.
Blackout612- "Wuts teh UFC?"
Ubernoober- "It like two guy who just stand and swing for fence and try to knock each other shit out it awesome"
White even went as far as dubbing Mir’s remark the "most unprofessional thing" he had heard in his life.
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 2, 2010 5:04 PM EST reply actions
I don’t think we should be regulating speech; but what Mir said was stupid and did cross a bit of a line in the taste department even if you give the guys leeway in saying things like “I’m gonna kill ’em!”, he went further. Other than having to deal with fan, boss and sponsor backlash, there shouldn’t be much more for him to deal with about it regulation wise.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
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