The Science Behind GSP Being the P4P Best in the World
by donkeypunch on Mar 13, 2010 8:00 PM EST
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As the P4P debate rages on, FightMatrix.com has a scientific method for compiling P4P rankings based on a point system - similar to BCS rankings. Fght Matrix.com describes its division dominance list:
The division dominance list debuted on 3/16/08, and is comparable to a pound-for-pound list, but does not factor in the theoretical or “proven” ability to transcend weight divisions while remaining successful. This list ranks fighters based on their point level superiority over those in the division in which they are currently ranked.
This is done by averaging the point level which encompasses the typical transition between the elites and top contenders of the division, then compares this average to the fighter’s current point level. The higher a fighter’s division dominance points, the more “dominant” they are over their divisional peers.
The division dominance list has GSP pretty much running away with the No. 1 spot, while Anderson Silva and Fedor Emelianenko are in the 2 and 3 spots, respectively.
Michael David Smith writes:
The second analysis comes from BloodyElbow.com's FightLines, which provide one big chart showing who's beaten who in the welterweight division.
It's really amazing to look at that chart and see how vast the welterweight division is, and how dominant St. Pierre is over it. It's especially amazing when you consider that St. Pierre absolutely dominated both Jon Fitch and Thiago Alves, who themselves have completely dominated the welterweight division when they're not fighting St. Pierre or each other.
Something else worth noting is that unlike most weight divisions in MMA, the UFC houses almost all of the top ranked WW's.
Mr. Smith goes on to say:
Anyway, consider this food for thought as we prepare to watch St. Pierre take on Hardy in two weeks. If St. Pierre wins, he'll have cleaned out the welterweight division to such an extent that there's not much left for him to do. Except maybe move to middleweight.
Like most fans, I'm ready to see GSP move up to the MW division, provided he beats Hardy. If he eventually wins the MW title, I think we will have found the greatest mixed martial artist ever.
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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Sorry I quit reading at “similar to BCS rankings”.
by ufc4 on Mar 13, 2010 8:55 PM EST via mobile reply actions 3 recs
They’re really not similar at all.
Bolts from the Blue // "He looks like a catfish" - Nick Hardwick on Brandon Siler
Bloody Elbow // " looks like your comment violated rule #4. and it’s a heck of a rule, rule #4" - Kid Nate
by Richard Wade on Mar 14, 2010 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions
GSP VS Fedor at 190 poundz?
"If I told you I was good, you would think I am boasting. If I told you I was not good, you would know I am lying" Bruce Lee
Im Sorry
But Anderson Silva is best P4P fighter, easy. When GSp fights it looks like a guy working a years worth of 9-5’s unpaid, with no breaks. When Anderson Silva fights he looks like a 9 year old on the playground having the time of his life. GSP has to work so hard to get where he is and Anderson did and does too, just not anywhere near as hard because his talent and ability is so amazingly natural
agreed
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
by Stillberry on Mar 14, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Since when is making Forrest look silly in the striking department this huge accomplishment? I mean, shouldn’t we be more impressed when, say, someone out strikes BJ Penn?
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 14, 2010 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, like then.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
by donkeypunch on Mar 15, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
just that GSP doesn’t have that same ‘je ne sais quoi’ crazy ninja-ness that Anderson does. I was just agreeing that Anderson seems to have this freakish natural ability to dodge punches while GSP is great because he works harder and smarter than everyone
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
You mean dodge punches like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jybkzVZ70wU&feature=player_embedded#t=2m6s
Alves is also the faster, better striker, so…
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 15, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh that’s just an awesome video btw. You should watch the whole thing. It has all of Andy’s ninja-ness as well.
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 15, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions
that GSP dodge was nothing. a lot of guys dodge one punch and land a takedown. have you ever seen GSP just stand there and dodge like 4 or 5 in a row, multiple times in a fight? no. you can’t seriously think that video of GSP dodging one punch and hitting the TD, even on a great striker like Alves, compares to Andy’s natural ninjosity. plus he’s done stuff like that against guys less sloppy than Forrest. i’ll admit, there are plenty of valid arguments for GSP being better p4p than Anderson, many of which you could probably shove right back in my face right quick, hell, by the time he’s done, GSP will have had a longer run against top comp than Andy so he’ll probably be the all-time greatest for a while, but right now, i think Silva is the better p4p fighter
Goldie: "Michael Jordan-esque in his grappling skills is Travis Lutter."
Rogan: "No, no he's not. No."
and it's really not that close
both fighters are great, but Anderson has a chance to go down as the best ever
I don’t want to see them fight, because I like GSP and don’t want to see him get mauled
and he would get mauled badly
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 15, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Why would only AS go down as the best ever. All of these guys should go down as greats. There is no best ever.
Perhaps you can say AS is the best striker ever period. That may very well work.
GSP is the best wrestler ever.
BJ the best JJ ever.
Something like that. But one shouldn’t be ranked above another when they are all so domianting right now.
What I need to see to determine best ever,
AS
I need the wrestlers. By the truckload. I need to see tons and tons of wrestler who come in and don’t even try to strike at all and just take his ass down. Surely he can be taken down. Let’s see what happens then. Will he get GNP or LNP off the P4P list? We won’t know. Stop protecting him Dana.
I need to see an elite striker. I need someone with similar speed and Ko power. I need to see Vitor Belfort.
GSP
I need to see a wrestler who can wrestle good enough to force a real fight. Only option is Koscheck. Prob wont do it But I need to see it.
I need to see a long legged JJ ace who can make GSP sweat while in top control.
BJ
I don’t think he needs anything. Perhaps lets see if there is a LW that can GNP him. It’s just not likely thoughl. GSP Penn 2 should me this. GSP could not take him down in the first. If he can’t no one can now that Penn has cardio.
Perhaps Aoki in a ground battle. BJ will probably knock him out. Would like to see that ground match up.
A striker big power. Melvin? Eh he doesn’t have the skills.
Oohhh. I need to see Jose Aldo vs BJ. Obviously only if Jose can stay undefeated for a year or two and put on some size.
wasn't downplaying the other guys, they are all great
just saying AS has A CHANCE to go down as the greatest ever OVERALL FIGHTER
so does BJ
GSP is awesome, but not near well-rounded enough to be in the discussion – I love the guy, but without the wrestling his game would be just okay (I’ve watched the first BJ-GSP fight many, many, many times, and BJ easily won the fight)
time will tell on this issue, it doesn’t matter what any of us think or say right now
I was just saying he has a chance to be the best ever SOMEDAY
I do agree with your assessment that we need to see them (all three) fight some people who can exploit their weaknesses, just don’t know if there is anyone (other than Fedor) that can exploit AS’s
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
it would be fair of me to say
that GSP’s win in the second fight was far more of a landslide than BJ’s win in the first fight, I’m not trying to discredit GSP
please also realize, before someone tries to jump on me, that I know the judges gave the first fight to GSP – they were just wrong
kinda like saying Hamill beat Jones – sure, Hamill got the win, but we all know what really happened
or you could go Rua-Machida, obvious ass-whipping followed by obvious terrible judging
I do believe AS, GSP and BJ are three of the four best fighters in the world without a doubt.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Comparing Alves’ speed and power with Forrest is laughable. However, I think a more apt comparison in striking would be Fitch and Forrest, and GSP mauled Fitch on the feet. I just don’t think he’s showy about it. I’m not saying one way is better than the other, ‘cause Silva’s head movement is awesome to watch. But I don’t think comparing Franklin and Forrest to strikers like Alves is remotely accurate.
Alves Smalves.
Griffin may suck, but he out struck Evans (got KO’d later, though) and Rampage.
When was the last time Alves out struck a good striker?
by dancingChicken on Mar 16, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
So your evidence is “outstriking” a wrestler who later KOed him?
Alves has outstruck everyone he’s fought, other than GSP.
by Hardcharger on Mar 16, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Before the fight with Machida he was considered a good striker. Rampage is considered one of the best strikers in the game.
I like Alves and I think he’s a very good striker, but who has he outstruck? Koscheck who took the fight on short notice? Hughes for god’s sake? Parysian? Lytle? Hironaka? GSP was the only good striker he fought.
If we’re doing a little revisionism, lets do it both ways.
by dancingChicken on Mar 16, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not revising anything, just telling it like it is. Rashad is a wrestler with fast hands and power. Rampage is now strictly a boxer with no kicks or kick defense, but excellent boxing fundamentals, power, and a great chin.
Alves has outstruck all WWs he’s fought but 1. And it is true that WW is a division with dominant grapplers as opposed to a division with a bunch of great strikers.
by Hardcharger on Mar 16, 2010 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you make a good point. I have never seen Alves as top top top of the food chain. Surely he is up there. But, I feel like Kos and Matt hughes vaulted him to the top. The hype was he was a striker. So obviously he’s no the greatest evaaa!.
Alves is no joke that’s for sure. I think he is a top 5 striker in WW though. He will have a chance to prove himself against Daley and AJ soon enough though.
Alves vs. Daley is one I badly want to see. I actually think Daley can handle him, but that will be a hellacious firefight.
by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 17, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea Rashad is not an elite striker at all. He has terrible boxing technique. He has won in spite of this not because of it. He has speed and power.
Rashad in nowhere near elite. Forest was whupping that ass. He got caught. The fight could go down like that a million times and I still consider Foresst a better striker than Rashad. Sure power plays a part in it but at least skill wise Forest is better.
agreed
if Forrest Griffin is beating you, you are not elite
still amazed he beat Rampage (according to the judges anyway)
the words run, forrest, run come to mind
and I don’t think Shogun took Forrest seriously, thinking he could just get by on reputation, or something
Shogun was in awful shape, too
After Rua-Machida, Rua-Forrest is the rematch I’d most like to see.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Based on divisional dominance I think you have to give it to GSP. Quite simply because he really worked his way up thru the ladder. In other words only because he has had the most fights out of his division.
Anderson would be close to but honestly the 185 division is one of the weaker ones. Plus we need to see some more fights. Franklin, Hendo, and Nate were all impressive. But surely we need a little more. Perhaps Belfort and Chael will solidify his complete dominance over his division which like I said is one of the weaker ones. I think HW is only weaker than 185.
Based on predictions I would have to think that BJ is the P4P champ. He needs more fights but he appears to be the guy with the most distance between himself and the contenders.
I think it boils down to Bj and GSP. I think if you put Brock or Fedor thru the complete top 10 one would expect a loss or two.
GSP would likely go 10-0 but BJ people feel would go 100% 10-0.
Basing the opinion off of how people view the champ and their dominance over their respective division you can find the theoratical P4p champ.
It also seems that venturing out of your weight class will hurt the public opinion of one’s domiance. Gsp beating BJ leads Bj to get what 3% of the vote? Thats a bad perception of what p4p is. GSP 185 vs BJ 167 does not equate to and even fight . BJ is and will alway be a LW. Same if GSP loses to Anderson Gsp is a WW and a loss to Anderson does not mean Anderson is better P4p.
Out of all the divisions who do you see beating the champ? How many do you see even giving a good fight?
HW – We’ll use Fedor
Brock obviously , New Mir, and the new contenders JDS Carwin and Cain all present real problems. Many would even have Brock as a favorite. Also Fedor has not been in the trenches in his division say like GSP. Fedor comes down a notch. Fedor beating guys bigger than him does not equate to as much as people think., They are still in his division making it fair game. Fedor will never fight as a LHW as that would likely be his true fighting class. This is different than BJ because he is a LW has fought as one and is completely capable of maintaining that. We know that Fedor at LHW is never going to be a possibilty so he doesn’t get extra credit for beating huge guys when he chooses to be a HW. Also AA poses a real threat. I know many would be interested in seeing a rematch.
LHW Machida
Just got his ass kicked by Shogun, nuff said
MW Anderson
I think Belfort poses some serious problems. Surely Anderson can and most likely will win. Belfort has the tools standing up to knock AS out. Chael and Dan have the wrestling to LNP AS to a win. This division is one of the weaker ones as well.
WW GSP
George has seen it all and done it all. He has been thru his entire division and beat every1s ass. Couple of flukes but he has come back from them and is a dominant champ. However I see Josh Koscheck as a legitmate threat. With GSP wrestling you either have to have a sick guard or sick wrestling to compete with that. Theres not too many contenders who are great off their back. Sure the wrestling advanateg would still go to GSP but surely the national champ would be able to compete with George. Also Koscheck has worked on his hands diligently. Now Kos wouldn’t be the favorite but I would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t think this is gunna be a good fight. After Kos there’s not many. He has also beat Kos who has improved alot as well. There’s not standing in the way for this champ he holds the rightful title as P4P champ as he deserves it and in a tough division as well.
LW BJ
Bj perhaps is the most dominant champ. There really aren’t any contenders out there. He doesn’t have any weaknesses. No LW will win a standup battle with BJ. No LW has a chance to win a JJ match against BJ. We havent’ seen a wrestler able to outwrestle him yet.
Skill wise BJ has no threats. Even Frankie Edgar who I consider one of the most skilled in the division has BJ at like -800 or -600. BJ simply is just better at everything against everyone. No other champ can say this. GSP is close but we know that in strictly a standup war GSP would be threatened by a few people.
For BJ to claim his rightful P4P status which GSP has tarnished in an unfair way ( 185vs 167 ) he is going to have to beat 3 or 4 more people. However if GSP continues to win theres no way Bj can catch him as GSP has almost entirely cleaned out his division.
So there you have it guys my list
GSP
BJ ( Skill Wise #1 )
Anderson
The other champions are not nearly as dominating as these three.
Jose Aldo needs more fights to be considered.
by p123 on Mar 14, 2010 3:23 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
One of the points for Silva though, is that it looks like he really could dominate in the LHW division.
Also, I think that in general, it will always seem harder to 10-0 through the heavier divisions simply because of knockout power. How many of the people that BJ would face are likely to end it with one shot? Brock?
Yes this is true. AS likely could the LHW champ as well. Not many people could say that in regards to moving up a class.
I think AS could be HW champ, too
as long as he didn’t have to fight people outweighing him by fifty pounds (and listening to Dana tell us it’s a fair fight)
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get how people can put BJ above GSP skill wise
You say no one can beat BJ in a stand up war, yet for GSP it isn’t so certain. When you look at their two fights and realize that GSP has out struck BJ BOTH times, that simply does not compute.
This notion that GSP is anything other than an ELITE striker is baffling to me. The Serra debacle notwithstanding, GSP has never been out struck in his career. Even in the Serra fight he was winning until he got caught on the temple.
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 14, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, wasn’t Alves supposed to outstrike GSP too? How’d that work out? Maybe GSP doesn’t have huge KO power but he has crisp, accurate striking that accumulates damage so your face ends up looking like this 
when he’s done with you.
Yes surely. But this is Jon Fitch. He is nowehere near being considered a striker. His striking is piss poor. He is this generation version of Matt HUghes. GOod wrestling and good top game followed with being well versed in submissions.
This is nothing to be proud about outstriking Fitch. Hell the guy he just fought who is a virtual nobody almost Koed him.
You're out of your element p123
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
by donkeypunch on Mar 15, 2010 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Fitch is easily #2 @ WW. Your post makes him sound like a can.
Also, GSP outstrikes pretty much everyone he fights.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
This is true. I have made him seem like that but for the subject it is deserved. Fitch has horrid striking. I was just saying Fitch’s face being beat up doesn’t make GSP best striker eva!!!!
Yes GSP does outstrike nearly every opponent. His wrestling can also factor into this as well.
Now its hard to really break down how one would do in a strict stand up match. But I feel a few people could give GSP a good fight and possibly knock him out if there wasn’t wrestling involved. Obvi this will never happen but as for trying to break down the top fighters and find there flaws I could make a plausible arguement.
Surely this is not a weakness regarding GSP. I have him as a top 5 striker. I just think guys like Daley, AJ, and even Alves in a strict stand up fight give him a good fight.
I only see Melvin having a chance to fight BJ and he will get Koed as well because he doesn’t nearly have the skill BJ has.
You could say LW just doesn’t have as good of strikers as WW does and you may have a point.
Perhaps Spencer Fisher could give BJ some problems as well standing up skill wise but the power is not comparable.
My entire point is that I can’t really see anyone beating BJ in 155 standing up solely at all.
I think the guys I mentioned have a chance to beat GSP several times out of 10 . This is all speculation but I think I made a valid claim.
I think only Vitor has a shot standing with Anderson and Vitor may likely just get destroyed as bad as the rest. Too bad we didn’t get to see that fight.
I’m basing things off of divisions and how people would fare against the champ in each dimension of a fight.
I think that’s the only way to start talking minor weaknesses as they guys are so dominant you really have to break them down to figure it out.
However coupled with GSP wrestling he may very well have the best striking as leaving his opponent off guard all the time always worrying about the shot and not letting them get their feet set.
IMO the only person that would be capable of knocking GSP out in a strictly standup war is Thiago Alves and Paul Daley (in WW) and Spider in MW. They’re capable, but they’re certainly not guaranteed to get it. I’d say GSP is favored against Alves and Daley, definitely the underdog against Spider.
But where you err is in comparing skills side by side while ignoring the complexity of the sport. Sure BJ’s boxing is better than GSP’s, absolutely, but the way GSP’s standup combines with his elite wrestling results in a skill that is far beyond what BJ or pretty much anyone else is capable. You can compartmentalize the skills and then compare them, but it makes a lot more sense to compare the different disciplines and how they co-function resulting in a single skill. GSP’s combination of skills seems greater than BJ’s (IMO).
I know Daley can give GSP problems in a strict standup war. Also AJ probably could as well.
BJ only has perhaps Melvin Guillard but he is not nearly as refined a striker as BJ is. BJ is the better striker overall than GSP.
GSP is an elite striker. I have Alves as a better striker as well but MMA doesn’t allow you to say ok just striking, GSP is def in the top 5 striking wise as BJ is number 1 in his division.
agreed….er with the top part. Wrestling does effect your opponents striking and what happens to them. GSP wrestling causes other people to have to handicap their striking which could make GSP the best striker.
However in a strict standup war BJ is the superior striker.
This whole line of conversation is ridiculous.
GSP is not an elite striker. He’s an elite MMArtist. His TDD is so good that he doesn’t worry about getting taken down and he can let his hands (and shins) fly. His wrestling is so good that people fear him changing levels, meaning he can head fake a shot and blast a superman punch leg kick combo instead. His wrestling is elite. His MMA skills are elite. His striking is well above average, but it is not elite.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
So... he's not an elite striker
Yet when he fights elite strikers, he out strikes them… But he’s still not an elite striker himself.
I question your logic sir.
It doesn’t matter what YOUR definition of striking is. It doesn’t matter if you think other elements of the fight somehow detract from the stats. What does matter is the results. The results overwhelmingly suggest GSP is an elite striker. One of the best in MMA.
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 15, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly.
GSP’s striking takes place in the context of MMA. When you outstrike good strikers regularly, you are an elite MMA striker. Whether or not that would transfer to a strict boxing or kickboxing fight is irrelevant. People wouldn’t fight the same way, as the rules are different. GSP doesn’t get downgraded in his striking just because he’s also a great wrestler.
Let me rephrase.
GSP is not an elite striker. Badr Hari is. Petrosyan is. Buakaw is. He’s not like them. He’s an elite MMA fighter who is well rounded, elite in one aspect (wrestling) and he has great transitioning skills. It’s not his striking that’s so superior to others. It’s respect for the takedown and his fluid transitions combined with above par striking ability.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
So when Jérôme Le Banner traveled to Montreal to train with GSP
in preparation for 2009 K-1 grand prix, he was there for what, to work on his TD defense?
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 15, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or to work with one of the best conditioning coaches and best conditioned athletes in combat sports...
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I wonder why they were sparing then
Why would they even bother if he went all the way to Montreal just for cardio? Why would he spar with this guy who’s just not a good striker? Hmmmmmmmmmm.
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 15, 2010 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
For real, dude?
Why Montreal? Because you go around the world for world class training.
Why spar with GSP? To stay fresh, deal with a smaller, fast, top athlete, and to give GSP a lesson in K-1 level striking.
Why are you acting like I said he’s not a good striker? I said he’s not ELITE. He’s obviously very good, he has a kyokushin black belt, and I’ve repeatedly said he’s above average.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
I used good relativistically
Anyway, your opinion is set in stone, so i think it’d be best to move on now.
by The Flying Gentleman on Mar 15, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
K-1 Level, like Bob Sapp’s and Hong Man Choi!
HI YAH!
by Thats It For you! on Mar 16, 2010 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
If you're in any way suggesting Hyper Battle Cyborg went to get a kickboxing lesson from GSP, you're crazy
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
by Anthony Pace on Mar 20, 2010 3:46 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Rephrase all you want, it doesn’t change anything. Elite MMA strikers are determined by how they strike in MMA, not how they may hypothetically do if they competed in boxing or K1.
However you want to split hairs on who is elite, and who is merely “above par” but has their abilities exaggerated due to transitions or whatever else you want to include is a specious argument.
I don’t think so. It is a portion but if we remove the transitioning process we can break down fighters to the T.
BJ absolutely tooled GSP Round 1 fight 1. GSP was still Georges as I like to call him. I mean he was completely embarrased. If GSP had no wrestling he would have been fucked.
He was clearly outclassed. Not to say GSP hasn’t improved but they both have.
In a strict standup war between GSP and BJ sure maybe George could do better but I wouldn’t be suprised if BJ absolutely tooled him again.
that's the thing with GSP
you have to respect that shoot, so your standup suffers due to the space you have to give him
if it were just standup, BJ would knock him out in rd. 1
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
well thought out
I agree with everything,almost
You forgot to figure in the use of the force, which andy has about mastered. Either way you got a rec from me.
Also Anderson has beat more former Champions then the other two. Funny little thing to think about.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
How many more former champions?
Silva beat: Rich Franklin x2, Hendo, not sure what other former champions he beat.
GSP beat: Hughes x2, BJx2, Sherk, Serra.
BJ beat: Hughes, Sherk, Gomi, probably some others too but I don’t know much about the others he fought while in Japan. Uno?
Either way I don’t see this as very relevant.
Silva beat Sakurai (Shooto Champ) at 170, Griffin at 205, Lee Murray (Cage Rage Champ). But it’s still not relevant.
by dancingChicken on Mar 16, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
It would start with
“you’re a morron” and end with “closed”
"You hit too hard, too hard, too hard..."
P4P or Divisional Dominance?
These are two different things we are talking about here
P4P is referring to the individual fighters skill regardless of weight division.
Divisional Dominance is just that, how have you looked defending your belt? Are you the undisputed king or are there many threats to the throne? Do you dispatch all challengers in a way that leaves no question to how good you are or is every title defense a hard fought war to stay champ?
By that definition/rubric here are my picks
P4P – Anderson Silva has shown he is on another level at MW. But truth be told 185 doesn’t hold that much talent compared to the other divisions. But he has also had two fights at LHW one of which was against a former champ and he looks like a demi god at 205. Silvas proven ability to jump up in weight with increased lethality is why he gets my vote for the top pound 4 pound fighter in MMA
Truth be told if Fedor were to fight at 205 (his natural weight class imo) he would lose a ton of fights without his speed advantage that he has at heavyweight. BJ & GSP have shown that natural talent and skill aside, a bigger fighter with comparable tools will beat a smaller fighter. Anderson has the best chance of joining Randy & BJ as a belt holder in two classes. GSP’s main weapon will be pushed to its limits when dealing much bigger wrestlers like Okami and Sonnen. Not to mention being dwarfed then dominated by arguably the best and most precise striker in mma Anderson Silva…if he hasn’t moved up in weight by then
Divisional Dominance – BJ Penn…sorry guys GSP is good but factoring in his losses (mainly being losing end of the biggest upset in mma history) and the trouble he has finishing fighters that he is clearly better than, I have to give it to the only fighter on the list who went almost 5 rounds and got his 8 times. 20 plus minutes of fighting and you only get hit 8 times, in a fight he could of finished in the first round but let drag on just so he could prove a point to his detractors and then promptly slashing his opponents head open in the final round. BJ is also the only champ to finish every title fight.
Fedor beating the rare non UFC heavyweight is good but not great. Lesnar and Aldo’s dominance needs more examples before they can break into the top 5 of dominant champs imo. And even if you think Machida won his first title defense, you have to admit he went from invincible to beatable in the span of 25 minutes.
So it breaks down into a three way showdown between BJ, GSP and Anderson. I’ve already broken down BJ > GSP in regards to defending their belts, but I still give BJ an edge over Anderson who only seems his best when he is outclassing his opponents in the standup and even with black belt level bjj seems wary of going to the ground. At the end of the day this is all hypothetical fight fan musings but BJ’s proven ability to seemingly finish his opponents whenever and however he wants is what sets him apart from the other champs.
Thats my $0.02.
by The Blackula on Mar 14, 2010 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
None of your analysis took into account the quality of opponent GSP has dominated at WW compared to your analysis of Penn at LW. That’s the big difference.
And a huge BS on “could’ve finished in the first round”. That’s 1st class delusion there. Penn would’ve finished Florian and Sanchez in Rd 1 if he could’ve. He couldn’t, and it took 4 and 5 rounds, respectively.
There is no way WW is more competitive than LW. They could be equals at best. The smaller the fighters are the better.
So you’re saying Joe Stevenson, Jens Pulver, Sean Sherk, Kenny Florian, and Diego Sanchez > Jon Fitch, Matt Hughes, Thiago Alves, Matt Serra, BJ Penn and Josh Koscheck? He wasn’t comparing the strength of the divisions overall, he was comparing the quality of fighters each man has beaten.
ah yes I mistook what he meant. Surely GSP has to be the P4P champ as he has fought the most and the best.
Alot of this talk is future talk. Surely once BJ completely cleans out his division then he would realistically be in the hunt. BJ has just moved down to LW and alot of my suggestions are speculation into future events BJ would have and how his fights would go.
Surely at this very moment GSP has to be the P4P champ at least in my sense of divisional dominance. GSP has fought the most so he gets the credit due to that. All of the 3 champs can be entered here but GSP has done the most therefore he gets the most.
I’ll give you this point- if BJ had fought his entire career at 155 he would most likely be the #1 P4P fighter on almost everyone’s list and there wouldn’t be much room for argument.
Very true
Add in conditioning factor from earlier in his career as well.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
by donkeypunch on Mar 16, 2010 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes guys. This is exactly my point. You are a very smart man and realized what the whole point was. I applaud you.
BJ doesn’t get credit for being a bum and fighting out of his weight class. But when talking about the realistic likelihood of how good he is now how good he should have been you have hit it on the head.
Also with the conditioning with the guy below me.
BJ is just such a natural freak his skills are mind blowing. We should appreciate every fight we get to watch him perform. Especially since he’s serious now.
Uhh, yes there is. The UFC LW division doesn’t contain nearly the level of top fighters as the UFC WW division has. There’s detailed analysis on this in the links above. The UFC WW division has more top fighters than the LW division, and the top contenders under GSP at WW are superior to the top contenders at LW.
surely thiago alves and anthony johnson may have a word about that. Rich Clementi and spencer fisher.
Spencer totally owned Thiago everywhere. Sure he was younger stupid bla bla bla… He was completely owned.
WW is not more skilled than LW. At all.
You’re living in a delusional world, and ignoring the facts.
BTW, BJ Penn lost at LW to a guy who can’t even win any fights at 145. I guess LW must be really bad in that case, if we’re using your style of logic.
Fact is, the UFC LW division is the weakest of all the division in terms of top ranked fighters.
he did fight Pulver when Jens was still in his prime, though
not taking sides, just saying
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 16, 2010 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
WW is much tougher division in the UFC. LW only had the boogey man BJ Penn.
If you look at the top 10 WW in the world UFC has 8 – 9/10,
Look at the LW division ufc has 5-6/10.
Besides Penn there are better LW spread out in different promotions, the top tallent isint as concentrated at LW as it is in WW.
HI YAH!
by Thats It For you! on Mar 17, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
When I think about pound for pound rankings, I take into account how the fighter does against fighters bigger than them. Fedor and Anderson have taken on bigger opponents and been just as successful, so I have to put them above GSP. GSP has mainly been dominant in a division where he is one of the largest framed individuals, like Brock but to a lesser degree. Definately the best WW in the world without a doubt, but to get pound for pound best he’d have to prove himself against bigger opponents.
Fitch is considerably slower and less athletic. Size isn’t everything.
Alves is not the wrestler GSP is. GSP gets to train for skill more then them because they have to focus on the weight cut for a longer period of time.
Same weight class equals same advantages. Speed = Power. If your smaller your likely faster. No advantage for weight.
GSP is pretty small, weight-wise, for WW
He doesn’t cut near as much as a lot of the top welterweights
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by slapjaw ackrite on Mar 16, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think I take that into account actually. They are all in the same divison.
If you are bigger usually you are giving up some speed or some time on speed. If fedor wants to eat ice cream I’m not going to give him credit.; It’s his damn division. You don’t get P4p just because you are not in the right weight class.
Fedor has an advantage of speed and more skills and explosiveness being a smaller guy in HW. That is mainly the reason he has ruled. I wouldn’t give him a handicap or a plus on that whether hes the small guy with advantahes or the big guy with their type of advantages.
Clearly Diego should have showed you this.
Diego being a lighter guy in WW is faster and can employ what he’s good at. Quick striking to get in and get the takedown and GNP. Also great with the scrambles.
In LW many of Diego’s advantages where nullified. He was not the quickest. His strikes where not getting him the TD.He was the big man on campus. However this also made him a striker.
Diego is not a striker. He is best as a scrambling wrassling fool. Obviously his size in the divison did not help him become the best fighter he can be. One who uses his advantages well.
If you are in the same weight division as someone you get shit!.
All wrong...
GSP has been tapped, he’s been knocked out. He’s gone to many a decision. P4P candidate? Yes. Easy choice? No.
IMO his wins have been underwhelming and his losses have been significant.
Forward Ever, Backward Never...
He is the most consistent out of the 3 and has the least losses out of the three. He has also faced the tougher competition for a longer period of time than the other 2. He 9-5 his way to P4P compared to the other 2. He just workhorsed that shit.
Anderson has really embarrasing losses as well. Bj too.
yeah
but it’s been a really long time since AS’s embarrassing losses, not so much for BJ
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
BTW
I like reading your stuff, p123. You know your shit.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 17, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
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