Big Questions: James Toney Madness
In early January boxer James Toney began angling for a spot in the UFC. After weeks of internet posturing and at least one scuttled contract, a deal had, improbably, been reached. On March 3, James Toney was announced as the newest fighter of the UFC. Questions abound...
Has the UFC crossed into freak show territory?
Without any mixed martial arts experience to his credit, it's reasonable that Toney's signing with the UFC raise some eyebrows, but the affair isn't all circus. We should remember, Toney isn't just an athlete making a high-profile jump to MMA, but one with an appreciable background in combat sports. As accomplished a boxer as he is, Toney's transition is no more bizarre than Abu Dhabi champion Braulio Estima's pending debut, or, having had only three professional fights, Rolles Gracie's appearance in the UFC. So why the gnashing of teeth?
The long-simmering feud between MMA and boxing probably has something to do with it. While other martial arts communities-judo, jiu-jitsu, muay thai, and so on-seem to happily coexist with mixed martial arts, the boxing community has, on the whole, turned its nose up at MMA. Naturally, then, MMA fans grow indignant at the idea that some aging pugilist expects to blow his way through the UFC, and we become yet more frustrated when he's given the chance to try. Yet, the public might also be less critical of Toney's place on the UFC's roster if Dana White hadn't been so vocal in the past about what he's characterized as gimmick fighters and pretenders.
Festooned with f-words aplenty, White's criticisms of competing organizations have, in the last several years, most often zeroed in on their talent pools, and what appeared to him as sideshow attractions masquerading as serious contenders. Pro-wrestlers, Kimbo Slice, and crossover athletes have all drawn his ire, and yet those are what have constituted the UFC's most-high profile signings in the last two years. Hell, the whole last season of the Ultimate Fighter was lousy with NFL benchwarmers. With all this in mind, it'd be fair to say that Dana white has, at times, tossed his standards aside and peddled his share of curios. This, however, isn't one of those times. In James "Lights Out" Toney MMA fans are getting a proven fighter, and that's what counts.
Can James Toney become a true contender?
Nightmare scenarios run through my mind. Randy Couture, laid out within the fight's opening 60 seconds, is retired by the blustering MMA amateur James Toney. Lyoto Machida's championship reign is cut short, his modified karate failing him in the face of a precision previously unheard of in mixed martial arts. Light-heavyweight captains Mauricio Rua and Thiago Silva find their leg kicks countered at blistering speed, and Rashad Evans blindly, desperately shoots for a double-leg, eyes jabbed up and swollen. When considering James Toney in the UFC's light-heavyweight division, these are my greatest fears. That decades of cross-breeding among the martial disciplines can be undone by the striking prowess of even a mediocre boxing champion; that mixed martial artists are, after all, just low-brow, brawling roughnecks, and that the sport we've hailed as the future was, in the end, only a diversion. Certainly, this is what most boxing elitists would like us to believe. Certainly, in my heart, I don't. Like most nightmares, it is unrealistic, illogical, unlikely.
We should remember that Toney has been so effective only within the confines of boxing, against other men working within the same relatively narrow criteria for victory. We should likewise consider the possibility that Toney, in his especially concentrated prowess, may be too specialized a fighter, that his skill set and instincts are so refined, so particular, that there is little room for improvisation or adaptation. So, while he might outbox Chuck Liddell with his eyes closed, James Toney not only lacks a feel for the sprawl, but his long-entrenched ideas of fighting may prevent him from ever learning it. And that goes the same for submissions or clinch work. Supposing he can overcome his own ego as a boxer and commit to cross-training (dubious, if his dismissive online persona is any indication), then he will yet have his inexperience and age to struggle with. There's only so much schooling his 41-year-old body can endure, and even his best efforts will, when weighed against the UFC's light-heavyweight doom patrol, most likely leave him at an insurmountable deficit, tied up in knots or ground to a pulp.
Given so many obstacles, the chance of Toney pursuing any legitimate title shot seems remote. Rather, we might expect his time with the UFC to yield a string of intriguing showcase fights-with Randy Couture, Anderson Silva, or, oh boy, Kimbo Slice.
How will this effect Strikeforce?
With Strikeforce garnering a fair amount of buzz thanks to a successful MMA debut by likeable football legend Herschel Walker, it might be fair to assume that James Toney presented the UFC with a timely counter-maneuver. And while Toney certainly ought to bring more credibility with him, former boxing champion such as he is, neither Walker nor Toney seem to present any long-term value to either promotion.
Should Strikeforce be so lucky as to have Walker fight a second time, there's still the difficult matter of who is opponent will be. Who do you get to face off with such a high-profile yet roughly hewn fighter? On the other hand, Toney's dedication to mixed martial arts is extremely suspect. Given his rather casual regard for the rigors and demands of a full MMA program, one gets the impression that his interest in the sport extends only insofar as it comes relatively easy; as much of a novelty as he might be for us, so might MMA be a novelty for him. What's more, it would appear that the boxing community's attitude towards Toney is, and has been for some time, decidedly ambivalent. This is all to say that Toney's wider appeal might not turn out to be all that remarkable, despite his history of accomplishments.
Signing James Toney seems like a smart move by the UFC to accomplish certain short-term goals: give the promotion a shot in the arm following a sluggish winter, and steal some heat away from Strikeforce. As to long-term ramifications, however, Toney may simply describe an offbeat period in the UFC's history.
But is it bad for the sport?!
There's no way to tell. Time was, Brock Lesnar's debut in the UFC was a skidmark on MMA's flag; we watched in horror as the legless, armless Kyle Maynard took to the cage for an amateur contest that would undoubtedly sully the sport's reputation; Ray Mercer's KO of Tim Sylvia threatened to strip all credibility from our beloved (and not so beloved) champions. Novelty acts, embarrassing reality show antics, and grudge matches fueled by scandalous vitriol-mixed martial arts has been an occasion for all these things, and flourished nonetheless. So why should James Toney's UFC career seem such a killer? Because some smart-mouthed fossil of a boxing aficionado scoffs on his blog? Man, who the hell cares? Fellas, it's time to admit that we may have slight alarmist tendencies.
Rainer Lee
Chicago, IL
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.
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While I seem to have read about this very topic somewhere before… Hmmm. I found your witticisms (is that a word?) entartaining and this “legless, armless Kyle Maynard took to the cage for an amateur contest that would undoubtedly sully the sport’s reputation” means an instant rec for telling it how it is.
My brain is like a box of chocolates... you never know when it`s gonna melt.
by BlueberryMuffin on Mar 12, 2010 7:54 AM EST reply actions
If any decent grappler gets a hold of Toney, he’s done.
by Monday Morning Martial Artist on Mar 12, 2010 7:58 AM EST reply actions
As accomplished a boxer as he is, Toney’s transition is no more bizarre than Abu Dhabi champion Braulio Estima’s pending debut, or, having had only three professional fights, Rolles Gracie’s appearance in the UFC.
It actually is more bizarre, for reasons so obvious that it’s amazing they should need to be pointed out.
Braulio Estima isn’t debuting in the sport’s most prominent promotion.
Rolles Gracie was (a) 31 years old, not 41 and (b) a guy with actual MMA fights under his belt. And even then pretty much everyone figured he was signed based on the value of the Gracie name. No one was talking about putting him in with Randy Couture in his first fight. He was on the prelims.
Plus, in general, there’s plenty of precedent for world-class grapplers crossing over and doing well in MMA.
Plus neither Estima nor Gracie is allegedly punch-drunk, nor has either one ever had a positive steroid test, nor has either one (to my knowledge) ever said anything like this:
Number one, I ain’t going to allow none of them boys to lay on top of me like a lil’ fag, you know what I’m saying? I ain’t going to the ground; that ain’t happening, you know what I’m saying?
nor has either one of them (to my knowledge) ever referred to one of their trainers as “one of the original death fighters”…
Do I need to go on here?
by JRN on Mar 12, 2010 8:56 AM EST reply actions 5 recs
I think Toney is going to have major problems with takedown defense. If you want to watch a boxer who actually will have some success, BJ Flores has a wrestling background. We should be eyeing him and forgetting about how Toney will get destroyed pretty quickly.
He could knockout Couture, but I really don’t care to see Couture anymore. The act has worn off for me. If Couture clinches him and takes him down, it’s over. If Couture wades in the pocket like he does against everyone nowadays, he’s done.
Follow me on Twitter @lelandroling
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 12, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
I think these are excellent points. I’ll especially note the difference between the Estima’s debut and Toney’s. Maybe a comparison between Hidehiko Yoshida and Toney would have been more apt, given that judoka’s immediate placement in PRIDE.
Regarding Gracie’s debut, I think it’s a slightly facile argument to point out that he had MMA experience. The guy’s opponent’s were by and large perfect matches for him. Having Peter Graham as your last win prior to jumping into the UFC doesn’t seem right. I’d also like to point out that there are plenty of mixed martial artists past their prime, rundown and punch drunk, who go on fighting with relatively little outrage from fans. Likewise with the steroid tests: if Barnett were signed to fight Fedor tomorrow, I don’t think there’d be too many saying that the fight is a travesty. Also, plenty of mixed martial artists have said things akin to your James Toney quote.
Having said all that, I still understand your points. I guess each offense on its own wouldn’t be so bad, but having all of them represented in one person constitutes a sort of perfect storm. I still don’t think it’s as much of a catastrophe as some say it is, but I get why some don’t like it. Thanks for your thoughtful input.
also
Gracie Jiu Jitsu does have actual street fight or nhb fight training. Its part of the art to fight mma. THATS WHY RORIAN GRACIE STARTED THE UFC.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
I thought they started the UFC to showcase the superiority of GJJ over all other martial arts…
Ricky Hatton came closer to beating Manny Pacquiao than Marquez did to beating Floyd.
-SC
by The Lethal Haze on Mar 15, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Trust the sport. The history of MMA is that (to put it in D&D terms) single class fighters will eventually lose to multi-class fighters. If Couture, Machida, Evans, Rua can’t find a way to beat a boxer, then the age old question has been answered – boxers will win in a fight.
Who believes that?
< / geekery >
If you think a 42 year old out of shape over the hill way past his prime boxer is going to compete and become a contender in ANY division in the UFC you are out of your mind.
It’s pretty obvious to me he is clueless from the intereviews I have read and is simply looking to parlay this into future boxing opportunities.
If we see him fight once let alone 2 x I wil be beyond shocked. Beyond.
I think there’s another angle to this story – the UFC may never even book James Toney to fight. When has the UFC ever signed someone to a non-exclusive contract? The closest they came was allowing Fedor to compete in sambo when they made their offer to him.
This could all be a smokescreen designed to generate mainstream media attention for the UFC.
Dana’s quote after the Toney signing:
“To be 100 percent honest with you, all [expletive] aside, I haven’t thought it out.”
That doesn’t sound like Dana does it?
Tae Kwon Do is a combat sport...
I wouldn’t put a black belt in with UFC calibur fighters though.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Ben Franklin
Black Belts are handed out by teachers. Belts and gold medals are not. If you had a Tae Kwon Do 4 time olympic gold medalist you better believe people are going to take notice .
Also there are many primarily stand up fighters in MMA especially in HW. Thse authors are really too much man.
James Toney does not equal Hershell Walker.
Hell James Toney does not equal Kimbo Slice.
There are no comparisons to those two guys those guys didn’t have world class combat sports experience like Toney does.
You guys are crazy!

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