Zuffa in Trouble Part 2: UFC 110's Poor PPV Numbers
by Kid Nate on Mar 11, 2010 2:57 PM EST
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The news came out last night that the early trending numbers for UFC 110 are weak, in the 215,000 to 240,000 range -- which is comparable to many of the UFC's foreign tape-delayed events. The difference was that UFC 110, because it occurred on Sunday afternoon in Australia, aired live in the U.S. at the regular 10pm EST slot.
First off, keep in mind that these same trending numbers for UFC 108 indicated a disastrous number for that event but later reports showed that the numbers were weak, but not as bad as initially feared. Still, 108 ended up doing around 300,000 which is still very weak for a U.S. UFC in the post-TUF era.
Our own Michael Rome predicted something like this for UFC 110:
We are just a few days away from UFC 110, a card that has a number of appealing fights but simultaneously lacks anything with serious drawing power. The event also comes just two weeks after UFC 109, leaving the UFC with precious little time to promote the event in the United States, especially considering the fact that almost everyone in the organization is already in Australia or on their way there.
The main event is a very intriguing fight. Cain Velasquez has stormed through everyone he's fought, but Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira represents a serious step up in competition from the likes of Cheick Kongo and Ben Rothwell. Unfortunately, the intriguing stylistic aspects of this match probably will not be converted to PPV buys. Velasquez is a relative unknown to UFC fans, and Nogueira, while known, has never drawn a big number in the United States.
The real "draw" of the show is the co-main event between Wanderlei Silva and Michael Bisping. Unfortunately for the UFC, Bisping has been very humble in his approach to this fight, leaving them without much of a hook to sell this fight on. Given the shallow nature of the UFC middleweight division, the winner of this fight will probably only be a fight or two away from a title shot.
The rest of the card is packed with interesting fights that don't mean a lot to casual fans. Internally, people at the UFC are excited to get this card out of the way and get onto a number of big cards with title matches. It's usually hard to predict a buyrate until the day before a show, and since I like to stay safe, I'm going to predict the number falls between 275,000 and 325,000 buys.
BE commenter NotTheFace puts the 110 numbers in context:
In 2009 the UFC averaged 620,000 buys per ppv event. If we look at the percentage each event was above or below that average we can definitely see a downward trend from 100.
UFC 100 1,600,000 + 245%
UFC 101 850,000 + 29%
UFC 102 435,000 -30%
UFC 103 375,000 -40%
UFC 104 500,000 -20%
UFC 106 375,000 -40%
UFC 107 620,000 +/- 0
UFC 108 300,000 -51%
UFC 109 275,000 -55%
UFC 110 240,000 -62%Wow. Is the UFC in a downward spiral. But here is the other interesting thing we should look at when discussing 2009 ppv buys:
Average with title on line 820,000
Average with non-title main event 370,000Since 100 there (have) been 3 cards with title defenses (101, 104, and 107) and 6 ppv cards without titles on the line. Lesson to learn? Those belts really matter.
Because of their commitment to international expansion and their failure to lock down a deal with HBO in 2007, the UFC has had too many events and not enough television venues. Pay cable would have been an elegant solution to bringing American fans the European/Australian events. As it is, they're kind of dumped onto the American PPV market in the late afternoon or on Spike TV via tape delay. Neither is an ideal situation.
But many of the flop events of 2009/2010 were NOT international events: 102, 103, 106, 108 and 109 were just flat out duds. Much of that had to do with bad luck and injuries. But the refusal to cancel any of those events in the face of so many fluke fighter cancellations reflects a kind of hubris and inertia that is cause for concern.
The UFC has definitely lost the upward momentum that it had coming out of UFC 100 that carried over to UFC 101.
Another topic that hasn't been brought up much, is the ongoing financial difficulties of Station Casinos, the foundation of the Fertitta family empire. They just reached terms with their creditors this week, allowing them to retain control of the casinos despite owing more than $2.4 billion.
The Las Vegas Sun reported earlier this week that part of that deal included a major payment from the Fertittas:
The Fertittas would make a substantial, but undisclosed, equity investment and the current management team led by Chairman and Chief Executive Frank Fertitta III would continue to lead the company.
MMA Payout noted that and connected some dots:
Note the "substantial, but undisclosed, equity investment" that the Fertittas will have to make in order to retain control of the company. The cash from the 10% sale of Zuffa LLC. to Flash Entertainment in Abu Dhabi might come in handy.
In today's volatile no-you-own-it-now-you-don't business climate, MMA fans shouldn't be too sanguine about the continued success of the UFC. Things just get harder as the stakes get higher.
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I think “Zuffa in trouble” is an overstatement. What we’ve had is a series of shows without big draw main events, and they didn’t draw. Considering the stellar UFC 107 numbers, people are overreacting too fast. If 111 draws 650+ the decline is a non-issue, it’s just a result of weak cards.
by Michael Rome on Mar 11, 2010 1:14 PM EST reply actions 6 recs
I would argue that if they had held onto more of their momentum coming out of UFC 100
that 111 would be pushing 1 million, not hoping for 650+
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Thanks for the shout out
And for more fun with numbers:
UFC ppv averages since 2008 without Brock: 471,000
Average UFC buys with Brock: 931,000
That is definitely true.
And had they not run into that terrible string of injuries, etc…they probably would be.
Some factors at play here are outside of anyone’s control.
I'm optimistic Nate
But…that’s just a little too optimistic IMO…..one million buys for UFC 111?….iniuries happen…not to mention that every fighter can’t and will not be a star….but with that said….I think UFC 111 does well north of 500K PPV buys.
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UFC 108 was UFC100 polar opposite
I think a couple of key things undid some of the momentum from UFC 100. I think the Silva/Griffin fight at 101 took some of the wind out of their sails. The way the fight became a joke just isn’t what they needed after a totally stacked card. Don’t get me started on Tito…
The biggest impact for right now I think was UFC 108. In every way that 100 represented the heights the UFC can reach in terms of press and promotion, 108 was the complete oposite. Regardless of how the fights actually were, the masses viewed the event as one that should have been cancelled. You just can’t shake that kind of impression in people’s minds and to follow it up with 109 which in my mind wasn’t worth of being on Spike let alone a PPV, is how we get to where we are. UFC 110 was good and had some decent fights but it had a real mountain to climb to rebild the image in people’s minds that UFC events are start to finish top quality shows.
by Roll for Life on Mar 12, 2010 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
But shouldn't that be the whole point here?
That UFC could not sell us a product that they thought was good enough? As a fan its not up to the UFC to determine what is good entertainment value for my money. It’s their job to provide it. These numbers speak to the unwillingness of both “hardcore” AND casual fans to support the product with dollars, at least in teh current economic climate. So yes, Zuffa is in trouble unless they can find a way to pry dollars out of my hands again.
Sorry for the side note, but doesn’t this also mean that we can put to rest the idea that the UFC “brand and product drives MMA” that Dana White was trumpeting last year? Mr. Rome is probably correct that the “big draw” will help numbers…so the sport as a whole stil needs the big show, which is a model that has proven to be unsustainable.
Brock Lesnar still disagrees
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
by pitbull187 on Mar 11, 2010 1:15 PM EST reply actions 11 recs
Brock? 4-1 overrated Brock? Who cares.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
brocks a draw and has destroyed 3 good heavyweights in a row
everyone says hes overrated but his domination in ever fight hes ever had deserves for him to be rated as highly as he is
brocks a draw and has destroyed 3 good heavyweights in a row
Agreed
ever fight hes ever had deserves for him to be rated as highly as he is
Nope
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
who should be ranked above him then?
obviously fedor but after that? he killed mir, carwins only beaten gonzaga, JDS could be argued i think hes the next best heavy after brock, velasquez?, overeem?
the heavyweight division is weak we all know that in ww or lhw if a guy did the things brock did he wouldnt even be noticed or have gotten title shot but the heavyweight division is a different story since its only now starting to heat up
Its just a weird situation at Heavy right now. The way I see it Brock, Cain, Carwin, Mir and JDS are all tied for 2nd or whatever.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
u could argue that but i personally think brocks last 3 wins are better than any of the others
brock beat herring, couture, and mir and dominated in each fight
mir beat brock, nog, and kongo, 3 better wins than brock but brock destroyed him in the second fight
JDS beat werdum, struve, cro cop and yvel 4 real solid victories and hes looked awesome zuffas 2nd best heavy in my opinion
carwin beat gonzaga and 2 scrubs im not bothering to look up
frankly brock is the 2nd best heavyweight and zuffas best heavy ppl hate on him for his 4-1 record and terrible attitude but he’s a promising fighter with a good skillset and the potential to be the first dominant heavyweight champ the UFCs ever had
Really?
You think Mir beating Kongo is a better win than Brock beating Randy? Randy is still a great fighter and a real threat if you aren’t at the top of your game, even with the size difference.
I like Kongo but I really don’t see him as anything more than a gatekeeper.
by Roll for Life on Mar 12, 2010 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is he doesn't have enough fights
Its hard to compare him to another fighter that he hasn’t fought, who has 15+wins
by TheBiggertheyare... on Mar 11, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions
Ill give you this one. Wrestling fans have a thing or two to do with it as well.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
^^
Right. Also even though alot of people don’t like him and think he’s overrated or something, they still watch him fight.
I like Brock I just think hes overrated. As in he should NOT be consensus #2. I wish he would have been the one to KO Big Nog and not Cain that way he could have some more credibility. IMO of course.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
If Fedor would of signed instead of M1 running to Strikeforce he would have all the credibility he ever needs by now.
"Frank Mir had a horseshoe up his ass. I told him a year ago. I pulled it out of him and I beat him over the head with it." Brock Lesnar
lol no.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions
you’re correct in saying no, but its because he would’ve probably lost by now.
by Austin Martin on Mar 11, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions
Fedor > Brock (Fedor > Anyone, actually)
Fedor has the better standup
Fedor has the better submission/jits skills
Fedor is faster
Fedor always makes his opponents fight at his pace
Fedor is better technically
Fedor has more experience
Fedor has better composure
Fedor has better throws/ ways to take you down
Fedor has been in wars
Fedor has beaten guys bigger than him before
Fedor has beaten guys stronger than him before
Fedor has more ways to defeat his opponents
Yet, because Brock Lesnar beat Frank Mir of all fighters, you want to put him up there with a 31-1 Pride Champ, Pride Grand Prix Champ, multiple world Sambo Champion, beat Nog TWICE in his prime, beat CroCop in his prime, Fedor? Think people, THINK! Why does Dana want Fedor so bad? Because deep down he know for a fact that Fedor is #1 all time. His mind explodes with the possibilities for marketing and $$$.
People like to say Fedors beaten Sub-par UFC vets. I love that argument. When Couture beat Sylvia half the world was amazed Randy just beat the top HW in the UFC. Well, did you see what Fedor did to him? Rape much? Its called REAL Mixed Martial Arts Skills and Fedor posseses them. Arlovski, ex-UFC champ, coming off wins over Werdum, Rothwell and Roy Nelson. He sure is a can. Brett Rogers, undefeated, huge guy, huge power, could beat most UFC heavies, coming off a win over Arlovski, he’s just a can right?
We need to look at the actual evidence and records and not buy into the hype or Dana White Fedor downplaying. But because Fedor isn’t in the UFC and fanbois want UFC to have all the best fighters you WANT to be able to say “oh Brock could beat Fedor, look what he did to Mir, he dominated him so UFC has ALLLLL the best fighters!!1” BTW, I want Fedor in the UFC just as much as the next guy but it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen anytime soon.
And of course, it’s clearly because he is ducking Brock! Just like last time he didn’t sign, because he was ducking Tim Sylvia, Arlovski and Couture, right?! Because Couture is so scary look at what he did to Tim Sylvia! ZOMG! And after his contract is up he wont sign because he will be ducking whichever UFC Champ has the title at that time, right? Also can we please stop thinking Brock will “Frank Mir” everyone. It’s not likely that he’ll be doing that to every single opponent. Fedor’s MMA IQ alone shows its not probable that he’ll get put in a position like Frank Mir did and not find a way to get out or defend. Fedor is not Frank Mir, not even close, but you already knew that. Or did you?
When people discredit the best HW fighter in the world because he hasnt fought Brock Lesnar, the least experienced Champion of all time, it kinda makes me sick. The best of the best? Get real, Brocks beaten 4 people. 4!!! Maybe in five years when Brock is wayyyy more well rounded, and has actually defended his belt, he will be considered one of the best heavyweights in the world. Right now he is a 1 dimensional fighter, who got a rematch with a guy who beat him in order to win his belt. One day Brock may learn to box, and his fights wont be completely lay and pray displays, but until then i dont see how you can call him the best heavyweight in mixed martial artist. Mixed, Martial, and Arts being the key words.
/rant…sorry.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Keep beating that dead horse
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
by judonerd on Mar 11, 2010 2:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Yes because thats all I ever post about. How brock sucks and fedor rules. Oh wait…
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Lay and pray huh? That is one odd way to view the Mir and Couture fights.
by sadface on Mar 11, 2010 5:33 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
fedors great
brocks good too
the #1 fighter should fight the #2 fighter to defend his claim of being the best
anderson silva fights the best in his division, gsp fights the best, fedor does not
fedors 1 brocks 2… werdum is 11 why is fedor fighting werdum?
Brock has 1 title defense he is clearly better
I mean did you see the way he was holding someone down that was barely trying to escape. IT WAS THE GREATEST TITLE DEFENCE EVER!!!!!
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Lay and pray is an odd way to describe his style.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
thats one thing brock is a finisher.
I really do like that about him.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:32 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
yeah, but that's the nature of heavyweights
I"m trying to think of heavyweights who aren’t finishers. Even Sylvia finished a lot of fights (and now he just gets finished, he he).
The combo of enough power to concuss and the lack of gas tank means very few heavies aren’t finishers.
Use all ten points.
Congo
Those muscles are just for show sir.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I have three problems with this post...
One: Arlovski has no chin. It’s his Achilles heel, and everyone knows it at this point. Brett Rogers main claim to credibility is the huge power in his hands, and his win over Arlovski who has no chin. Brett Rogers might not be a can, but claiming he’d beat most of the UFC HW is some of the craziest hyperbole I’ve ever seen on the site. I give the same amount of credit to Fedor for beating Rogers as if he beat Arlovski again, which is to say a very moderate amount.
Two: If Fedor could beat Overreem, that’d solidify him as #1 without a doubt, the problem is that fight looks like it’s going to be further and further away. It’s going to be damn hard to keep Fedor as #1 if Brock comes back and beats either Mir/Carwin and Velasquez, while Fedor is still waiting for an Uberreem fight.
Three: Calling what Brock did to Mir in the second fight “lay and pray” is one of the dumbest statements I’ve ever seen in regard to Lesnar or Fedor ever. Mir’s face was rendered a bloody pulp, and the fight was stopped because of it. There was absolutely zero “praying for a decision”, and a lot of incredibly dominate positional wrestling.
The reason the people who think Brock could win vs Fedor think that he could win is that Brock is a wee bit bigger than Rogers, and Rogers had Fedor in an extremely bad position. There is reason to think that Brock wouldn’t have let that go back to its feet. I don’t know that he could have ended it in that round, but it definitely wouldn’t have been standing up as quickly as it was against Rogers.
shrugs I suggest if you want to go into rant mode that you drop a bit of the hyperbole so you don’t look foolish even when you’re making solid points.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
by Jacob Hayes on Mar 11, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If Fedor (#1 HW) could beat Overreem (#9 HW), that’d solidify him as #1 without a doubt
Yep, Fedor has beaten Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira (#4), Brett Rogers (#8), Andrei Arlovski (#11) and Josh Barnett (#12) but to be considered #1 without a doubt he definitley needs to beat #9 Alistair Overeem!
What did he beat Barnett by again?
Failed drug test?
um he didnt beat Barnett
A wiz quiz did
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
You do realize that...
He didn’t actually fight Barnett, and that Nog fight was like five years ago? At a certain point I don’t put a lot of weight behind old fights to justify current competitiveness.
You can use 5 year old fights as the basis of all-time standings, or decade standings, but when you’re talking about current standings, I’d like current fights to base that off of. The only HW with really any standing behind them at the moment in Strikeforce is Uberreem, so yes, that fight would be needed in my mind to maintain relevance as the #1 if the #2 Brock beats some combination of the #3/#5/#7(Mir/Cain/Carwin)
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
you mean like beating a Rogers who was ranked #6 at the time and is still top 10? or Silvia who was top 5 at the time? or AA who was top 8 at the time? you mean beating top ranked guys like them? oh wait he beat them so they were has beens..
"For some reason Dana White doesn't like me, and I don't care enough to find out why. So he can go pound sand up his ass as far as I'm concerned."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Mar 11, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
at the time
those guys were ranked but looking back on it now the wins have lost their luster.
"Live fast, die."
Makes sense. Not.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
What was he ranked before he cold cocked a guy with no chin?
It’s a serious question, because I have no idea. He was fighting literal nobodies until his fight with Arlovski, with his biggest win coming against some guy from Iron Ring.
The problem is all the people you mentioned are linked to each other incredibly tightly, with the strongest fighter of the three being Arlovski who himself hasn’t won a fight against someone I’d consider more than a gatekeeper since beating Werdum, but he at least has skills left, even though he has no chin. Sylvia was already on his downward slide starting with his loss to Couture, his ugly as hell win against Vera, then a three fight losing streak against Nog, Fedor, and lolMercer. Sylvia is now ranked like 25th, and even that is based on past glory over current relevance.
So Rogers is someone relevant because he beat Arlovski with a devastating punch to his glass jaw, who is still relevant because he beat two “gatekeepers” in Roy Nelson/Ben Rothwell somewhat recently, and beat Werdum back in 07, and Sylvia is relevant he beat Arlovski twice, and Jeff Monson?
Ugh, if you don’t see how this is a house of cards I don’t know what else to say to you. Fedor is a great fighter, but it’s impossible to keep him ranked at #1 if Brock beats two people in the top 5, while Fedor is still waiting on Uberreem to finish his horse meat.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
My mistake on Barnett got sidetracked.
We’ll use his latest three Rogers, Arlovski, and Sylvia, and because you mentioned Brock, I posted his last three opponents and their rankings at the time he beat them…
Fedor Emelianenko:
07/19/2008 #4 Tim Sylvia
01/24/2009 #2 Andrei Arlovski
BBL to finish the post,
11/07/2009 #6 Brett Rogers
Brock Lesnar:
07/11/2009 #2 Frank Mir
11/15/2008 NR Randy Couture
08/09/2008 NR Heath Herring
Gotta run, I’ll finish the post later…
Damn, I'm terrible today!
1. I said Fedor vs. Barnett happened.
2. I listed Mir at #2, when he was ranked #3.
I’ll do better tomorrow, I hope…
Yep
My fault on adding Barnett, I get sidetracked by my kids, don’t be surprised to see Fedor vs. Dora the Explorer on a post.
lol Rec
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 6:30 PM EST up reply actions
he beat joe lewis
They had to dig Joe Lewis up from the grave.so they could fight. He did in fact win.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:37 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
i refuse to read that due to its length :)
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
Brock lay-n-pray?
No. No sir. Check Frank Mir’s face after that second fight. Not lay-n-pray. And I am a Frank Mir fan.
certified warlord
You guys just had a problem with th e laynpray part? Lol That was jus thrown in there, hey Ill take it. Laynpound is more like it i guess. Hes still one dimensional.
Again, sorry for the rant guys. =( I had a horsesteak for lunch.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
See thats the thing about making arguments. You cannot lazily “throw out” untrue statements and expect people to take you serious. In no way at all were Lesners fights against Mir or Couture lay and prays. And to suggest that Lesner is one dimensional and therefore isnt a a clear cut #2 is an insane point to bring up. You can have the opinion that Fedor would beat Lesnar because Fedors skillset, but Brock beat Couture and Mir and is the promotions clear cut champion. He is currently above everyone else in the UFC no matter what you say.
by sadface on Mar 11, 2010 5:48 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Amuricans love their fake wrasslin’ heroes.
by grein on Mar 11, 2010 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:56 PM EST up reply actions
………………………………………………lol no he doesn’t but im sure he hates you.
by JaTinkles on Mar 11, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
no,
i love all our readers. even the ones i ban.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Mar 11, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Heart of gold…
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
he said readers not "posters"
I see what you did there nate.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I don’t think theyre in trouble but they do need to cut down the events and make sure there is a title fight every month. Oversaturation.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
Well, nog never has attracted the casuals. Cain never has either, but will do so within 12-18 months.
I think in order for Cain to explode as a megastar he needs to beat the big bad white gorilla and take the strap. Im sure ESPN would cover the poop out of it.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions
mmaeruption:
I am assuming you are making this argument to say that because Cain and Nog have never been PPV draws, we shouldn’t conclude the UFC is on a downward trend with low PPV numbers? The fallacy with this argument is that if they are not big PPV draws, they shouldn’t even be headlining a PPV card. You can put shit on a stick, but it’s still just shit.
I am in no way attacking either Nog or Cain, I am huge fans of both.
"For some reason Dana White doesn't like me, and I don't care enough to find out why. So he can go pound sand up his ass as far as I'm concerned."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Mar 11, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
The UFC is as popular as ever
the trend im noticing though is that all the newer fans and older ones too are finding ways to avoid paying for the ppvs and still finding ways to watch the fight, any bar that holds an event is always packed, and illegal internet streaming is more popular than ever
the fact that zuffa expects people to pay 55$ a month to watch fight cards that could easily be watched for free is the reason the numbers suck they have too many ppvs and too many free shows im not complaining though since i love the fights and never pay for them bars are such a better option
by milk72 on Mar 11, 2010 1:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I think I agree.
I realize that this is purely anecdotal, but I’ve noticed the same thing.
I’ve been going to bars for years to watch the fights, and ever since Lesnar’s introduction into mma, the particular bar I go to, is absolutely packed for almost every card. For the past few years now, we need to get there almost an hour early in order to get a table.
by WestbergIDFC on Mar 11, 2010 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Here’s the thing tho, a bar doesn’t just pay $55 for the fight, they pay a set price based on the capacity of the bar. I wonder how a bar buy factors in to those buy rates…does that count as 1 buy? 100?
I can name 10 bars within 15 minutes of my house that show the fights, so they’re selling a LOT to that market.
Strikeforce is going putting on their last show
Jump to conclusions. Why does this blind supposition only bother people when its about Zuffa. Why can’t we all just admit that we are all just fans guessing at what’s going on the inner workings of an organization. And this includes Nate. We are fed stories and we try to deduce from there. That’s all this is.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
by Neil Manich on Mar 11, 2010 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you. I actually give props to Nate to go against the norm (and face tons of criticism) and give his opinion about it.
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
The problem is that he doesn’t temper his articles, it’s always the same anti UFC sentiment, and that kind of takes the impact out of any point he’s making. It just comes off as bashing the UFC because it seems like a novel thing to do.
how is it anti-UFC sentiment?
I am critical of some of their business decisions but I’m a huge mark for their product.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Mar 11, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
because it isn’t blatant UFC nut huggery
"For some reason Dana White doesn't like me, and I don't care enough to find out why. So he can go pound sand up his ass as far as I'm concerned."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Mar 11, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
“how is it anti-UFC sentiment?”
Reading your past articles, that is the overriding theme. It seems like you rely on the other writers here to post a counterpoint article instead of looking at both sides of an argument for yourself. It’s hard to take an article like this seriously, knowing that you come down on the anti-Zuffa side of things pretty much automatically no matter what the situation.
by jspartan on Mar 11, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
seeing as how you have been a member of BE for all of about a week you know what the writers here do “automatically”.
by JaTinkles on Mar 11, 2010 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
First thing I do when I see a rude comment is check how many comments that person has made…then it usually becomes clear why…
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
but with your whole 4 comment you’ve made to this moment, it kinda seems like you joined only to verbally attack one of the writers.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
i get that way when i see the same thing over and over. you’re not the first to do it, and many of times the people are moronic in the way they argue. i’ve grew annoyed. but, you did join just to argue with the article then?
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
I’m just saying, it doesn’t look that good to say something negative about the founding editor of the site as soon as you join. now does it make sense? i’m not freaking out. I am quite chilled. I’m high as hell.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
I don’t keep track of who does what on the site, and just because he is the founding editor, that’s not going to affect my opinion or response to an article.
alright, good enough; i digress.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
I'm glad you signed up and are commenting jspartan
welcome!
As long as people aren’t dicks, I couldn’t care less if they attack my arguments. That’s the whole point of taking a position, seeing how it holds up to criticism.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
by Kid Nate on Mar 11, 2010 2:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if the gaps are being filled
then I won’t double the work.
As I am the founding editor of the site, did it ever occur to you that if I didn’t approve of what the other staffers were writing, that they wouldn’t be on staff very long?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Nate is Anti-Giving-A-Damn-What-Dumb-People-Think-Over-Writing-Fresh-Forms-Of-MMA-Journalism… It’s an epidemic.
"Well, yes, but I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands." - Tobias Fünke
"There are just so many poorly chosen words in that sentence." - Michael Bluth
One of my favorite lines from the best TV show ever.
MMA Payout covers it occasionally.
That’s about it. I hate how people assume that the UFC is super profitable and will always continue to grow until it takes over the world. It’s a fragile business, and being the behemoth of MMA makes you a nurse shark in an ocean of sports were megalodons still exist.
"Someone is WRONG on the internet. What do you want me to do? LEAVE? Then they'll keep being wrong!"
-Randall Munroe
Oooooh shit!
PDL JUST WET PREHISTORIC ON OUR ASS’S.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:42 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I think this is very sensationalist and you will need at least another 12 months to paint a better picture.
There was bound to be a bit of a letdown after the tremendous success that was UFC 100. This is probably just a down cycle and all businesses go through that kind of thing. So long as the UFC doesn’t over leverage itself then they’ll be fine.
by Worldisart on Mar 11, 2010 1:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
This is how trending works… unless that new resistance line doesn’t clearly break then there is a 100% certainty that there will be a new peak in the near future (comparable to the time between the old record/UFC66 and the new record/UFC100).
A clear line break would be less than 300k ppv buys.
Unless this resistance line breaks there’s absolutely no evidence that the UFC has lost momentum.
mmalogic explains why people were “morons” for assuming that the UFC had lost momentum prior to UFC 107.
Now I should say that I don’t think that Zuffa is in trouble. I just thought it was funny.
Editor - BloodyElbow.com - SBNation's mixed martial arts headquarters.
MMA Editor - SBNation.com
by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 1:20 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
It’s clear that they’ve lost their momentum. But like in baseball, momentum Is tomorrow’s starting pitcher. And tomorrow’s starting pitcher is two title fights, Mir, and GSP.
by argyle on Mar 11, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m confused on the meaning of “Zuffa in Trouble”. I don’t get what trouble they are in exactly. I realize some of their numbers have gone down but what damage has actually been done by that. I mean at the rate they are expanding their reach around the world and presumably with that expanding their revenue streams I’m not equating a dip in these WEC ratings and a dip in PPV buys as any kind of trouble.
Now if someone could show me their total revenue was dropping I would listen to that argument.
Just BE.
by mattman73 on Mar 11, 2010 1:37 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
what's going on is this
for years the UFC had succeeded in squaring the circle — in a business (combat sports) that is infamously boom or bust because it’s star-driven — the UFC was able to build their brand as the fundamental draw. Fans said “are you watching the UFC this weekend?” instead of “are you going to watch Liddell vs Ortiz?”.
Now they’ve watered down their brand value and fans are starting to learn to distinguish which cards are worth watching based on who’s headlining.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Agreed. I am one of those used-to-watch fans. The last one I watched on ppv was machida/shogun, and their rematch is the only one I’m interested in buying. I’m feeling major mma burnout from all the events being held, and lately my tolerance for the blood and brain damage has gone down considerably as well. A bunch of my fellow mma fans are dropping out as well, only occasionally hitting bars on fight nights now. The pendulem has swung from quality to quantity and I’m personally getting a little numb to the mma spectacle.
Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.
by judonerd on Mar 11, 2010 2:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
The only problem I have believing that at this point is at the end of the year when we look at total PPV buys the UFC has done better than the year before. If at the end of this year they haven’t come close to beating last year’s total PPV buys then I would believe that 100%.
Just BE.
we'll see
but if they have to put on more and more events to do the same or slightly better numbers, that’s a loss.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If it takes more PPV events to beat last year’s numbers then it would bring down the average profit per PPV event.
However I’m thinking their ever expanding TV deals give them an opportunity to make up for any dips in PPV revenue by turning those PPVs into money making viewing content. Making a low selling PPV still very profitable in the long run by replaying it in one from or another all over the world.
Just BE.
I got an advanced copy
Shitfarce you stupid dickface people should learn more here read these marketing key terms I have put together Zuffa rules
BOOSH
by Farthammer on Mar 11, 2010 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jesus from the sounds of the article Strikeforce should just go in for the kill now since Zuffa will be bankrupt by next week.
by Joselana on Mar 11, 2010 1:42 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
id quit being a mma fan the same way i quit being a giants fan
fuck eli manning totally unrelated but fuck him
Yeah, I hate quarterbacks that win super bowls.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
by Neil Manich on Mar 11, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i loved it at the time dude
but now we’re stuck with him and his hot and cold playing style he’ll start 5-0 and dominate then go 8-8 and totally kill u inside
Yeah
I can see his negatives, and he gets paid a whole shit ton. I was just messing with you.
The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"
Can we change these articles to: The Sky is falling 2.0
Just to keep accurate.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Mar 11, 2010 1:53 PM EST reply actions 5 recs
Nate
I really dont get it how they are in “trouble”.
You ended w/
“In today’s volatile no-you-own-it-now-you-don’t business climate, MMA fans shouldn’t be too sanguine about the continued success of the UFC. Things just get harder as the stakes get higher.”
Are you expecting that with this trend of sales/views that at one point a non title UFC PPV would not be profitable anymore?
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
by vivero on Mar 11, 2010 1:56 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
when you lose upward momentum
it means you’re in danger of stalling out. when you’re a fast-rising new sport and you lose upward momentum, a crash is often in the future.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The XFL wasn’t a new sport, it was football. It was a new league.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Mar 11, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions
no
my problem with the whole upward momentum argument is that at any time the UFC wants, they could put on a card with lets say
Brock, Mir, BJ, Chuck, Forrest, Macida and Jon Jones and gain incredible numbers,
and wouldn’t a card like that start the upward momentum again?
by jackmerridew on Mar 11, 2010 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
It seems to me that Nascar did this. They had this sudden explosion, sort of plateaued, and now they cruise along making good money with a loyal audience without the explosive growth they once had in the late 90s and early 2000s. That’s just how it seems to me though. Nothing scientific.
At this point I sort of wonder whether articles like this come from the idea that you want to sensationalize because you need to come up with something compelling, or whether it just happens from sitting around thinking about it too much? Either way is understandable suppose.
by Dooda on Mar 11, 2010 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hockey also did this. In the 90s the sport grew at a fantastic rate and has since plummeted into obscurity
"For some reason Dana White doesn't like me, and I don't care enough to find out why. So he can go pound sand up his ass as far as I'm concerned."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Mar 11, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
that has more to do with the strike and only having VS as an outlet for games.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Mar 11, 2010 3:01 PM EST up reply actions
I know the strike had a lot to do with it but the point remains that it was a sport on the rise and quickly fell into oblivion.
"For some reason Dana White doesn't like me, and I don't care enough to find out why. So he can go pound sand up his ass as far as I'm concerned."
Don Frye
by keyboardwarrior on Mar 11, 2010 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
I agree
But it has more to do with lack of outlets carrying games than anything else. Shit ESPN covers MMA more at this point (not really but you get the point I’m making).
And the fact that fans are buying cards intelligently now I don’t think is a bad thing. It forces the UFC to produce great cards instead of garbage. I would never say that Zuffa is in trouble because the WEC did poor ratings on a network that is part of a special package and isn’t available to a large portion of the population because Comcast is in a dick measuring contest with Direct TV. The poor ppv buys to me reflect that while people will tune in for free MMA they won’t when they have to spend at least $90 a month (nonHD) and $110 for HD when there are two ppvs in the same month. Now if those numbers become a trend, where EVERY PPV does numbers in the 200k range, yes I’d say there is a problem, but with the spring summer coming up? Fuck no, there isn’t a problem.
twitter.com/thisredengine
by Matthew Roth on Mar 11, 2010 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
Hockey hasn’t fallen into oblivion at all. There’s still a good sized audience that enjoy it, but at some point the growth needs to curtail. I disagree with Leland that the momentum must continue or else something bad is going to happen. The laws of physics state that eventually the momentum must curb, and what happens when it does will depend on how you got there and how aggressive you were. The idea of perpetual growth in capitalism is a gross error IMO, and contradicts physics. But again that’s just me.
wait...
the only thing i can get out of this article is that zuffa is in trouble because they made half a gazillion dollars instead of a gazillion? lol.
"Live fast, die."
by Bonedoctor on Mar 11, 2010 2:00 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
This mole hill is officially a mountain!
The last card was an awesome card but it was old pride guys. It was more for the hardcores. The other two were lacking star power a bit and no titles were on the line, And they were barely under 300k.
"When i get in there, in his face ,pressin the action,I'm RUFF NECKIN'EM,I'm throwin him around,I'm punchin him,hes punchin me, I'm eatin his shots and I'm Blastin him back in the face he's not goin to be able to handle it ." - Chris Leben on how his fight with Anderson Silva is gonna go.
by Rayce. on Mar 11, 2010 2:03 PM EST via mobile reply actions 3 recs
It is this simple: asking people to purchase two 45 dollar PPVs in a month is asking too much.
Of course there;s going to be a drop off when you look at an almost 100 dollar increase in your cable bill.
Thank you
2 PPV’s in one month in the worst economy EVER. Sky is not falling, methinks. Let’s see the total at the end of the year.
certified warlord
I would argue thats a temporary problem that may not rebound with the economny
If fans start skipping out on PPVs because they can’t afford the frequency they start to get conditioned to skipping out on PPVs and becoming more selective consumers even when their money returns.
I think the cash cow casino finical troubles whould be the main threat to Zuffa, not the lack of PPV buys.
HI YAH!
by Thats It For you! on Mar 11, 2010 2:11 PM EST reply actions
finally someone noticed the point
it’s like an iceberg — 90% under the surface.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
If this was the point you probably should have made it the focus of your articles instead of the last few paragraphs.
by Mocha Shaka Khan on Mar 11, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought the Fertitta’s only owned a 25% stake in Station Casinos at this point. Colony Capital owns the other 75% I believe.
Plus with them being separate businesses there is no direct default or loss of money based on the actions of the business is there?
Just BE.
by mattman73 on Mar 11, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep, not sure why this keeps getting glossed over when people talk about them trying to put Zuffa money into Station Casinos, the Fertitta’s only own 25% of Station Casinos. Why would they take money from a company they are majority owners in to prop up a company that they only own a quarter of? Just because Frank still runs Station’s operations doesn’t mean that he is the majority owner in the company. Colony Capital isn’t hurting for money and they have nothing to do with Zuffa at all, if there is equity to be reinvested in Station Casinos then the bulk of it would most likely come from them not from Zuffa.
by who me on Mar 11, 2010 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Actually – to toot my own horn -I have brought this up a couple of times on old posts. Especially when discussing why the UFC was making such massive dividend payments to its owners.
I don’t think the risk is that Station Casino’s will drive the UFC out of the business. The danger is that the debt payments keeps Zuffa’s hands tied. An example is network tv where if they could compromise on an agreement they could drive Strikeforce out of business. But to keep receiving dividend payments to use for the Station debt they have to stay on ppv for maximum return. There are numerous examples where their need for massive returns may come back to bite them later.
on wiki it says that the went bankrupt. i dont have much business savvy but wouldnt the the ufc be sceen as an asset? And on a whole aother note, what if there finaces got worse to the point where they would have to sell the UFC to dig themselves out of the hole? 2.4 billion debt aint no joke!
HI YAH!
by Thats It For you! on Mar 11, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Here is a good source to see why Station Casino going bankrupt won’t effect Zuffa one bit.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/18/762562/in-real-life-bankruptcy-do
Strongly recommend reading the comment who me made below the article. It got 12 recs for making a whole lot of sense on why Station Casino’s bankruptcy has no bearing on Zuffa.
Just BE.
People need to read this link.
If you don’t understand it, go find someone to explain it to you.
by Riney on Mar 11, 2010 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Its frustrating when Nate makes a “hidden” point in his article and doesnt respond to your link. Whats the point of discussion if we dont even get to have it?
by sadface on Mar 11, 2010 6:08 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
lol
sorry I can’t respond to every comment in every thread as fast as you would like.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
i guess you missed my point. if you are going to have an underlying point, make it more obvious. that way we can discuss it, rather than have 100 posts about Fedor vs Brock again. :)
by sadface on Mar 11, 2010 9:46 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
lol
I’m not saying that Station Casino’s financial troubles are going to destroy the UFC.
But I am saying that the Station Casino problems are impacting the cash flow of the Fertitta family and that impacts the UFC.
The impact of Station’s problems on the UFC is this — the principle owners of the UFC are also the principle owners of Station Casinos.
When Station has massive financial problems, the Fertittas have less cash to invest in other ventures, like the UFC.
Do you think it’s just a magical coincidence that they sold 10% of the UFC right at the same time they had to come up with an enormous amount of cash to hold onto their Station Casinos empire?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
They Fertitta’s aren’t the principle holders of Station Casinos. Colony Capital LLC holds 75%, both Fertitta brothers and their brother in law Blake Sartini hold the remaining 25% between the three of them. The principle owner of Station Casinos is Tom Barrack who heads Colony Capital, the Frank Fertitta III still runs Station as President but he only has a minority share of the company, Lorenzo doesn’t even hold a position at Station anymore, he works full time for Zuffa. Honestly the issues at Station Casino shouldn’t have much of an effect on Zuffa or the private financial holdings of the Fertitta family. Heck when they took the company private it was Colony that put up the money, the Fertitta’s were exchanging their old shares for new in the private company. They became billionaires off the deal in 2007 and Station’s bankruptcy can’t touch their personal finances or even look at what Zuffa has.
Brothers and company executives Frank Fertitta III and Lorenzo Fertitta, and sister Delise Sartini and husband, Blake, will receive a combined $494.8 million for their remaining company options, unvested restricted stocks and share holdings at the close of the $5.7 billion buyout by Fertitta Colony Partners.
They will also invest approximately $870.5 million worth of remaining stock toward a 25 percent equity investment in the joint venture with Los Angeles-based private equity firm Colony Capital.
Colony Capital will contribute a cash investment of $2.6 billion for a 75 percent equity share of the new company, which will still operate as Station Casinos.
by who me on Mar 11, 2010 8:24 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
it's irrelevant who owns most of Station
Station is the engine that produced most of the Fertittas cash.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
It’s not irrelevant when the point people are trying to make is that the Fertitta’s are trying to move money from Zuffa to Station because they only own a fraction of Station Casinos.They aren’t draining Zuffa’s coffers to prop up the Casino business they are only minority owners in and Zuffa has been profitable in it’s own right for years now. Their personal wealth isn’t really an issue to either company’s finances or this discussion at all at this point. Their personal wealth is still their personal wealth it doesn’t belong to either company. Heck if it was that bad at Station then they could just take Boyd gaming’s $2.45 billion bid for Station and go on with their lifestyles of the rich and famous existance.
by who me on Mar 11, 2010 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
missing the point completely
Station was a huge pot of money that the Fertittas used to buy and invest in the UFC. They sunk way more money and time than any other investor would have or could have. Now they’re deeply in debt and don’t have that giant pot of money to fund the UFC.
Do you really think they sold 10% of the UFC because the partnership opportunities with the Arab investors were so irresistible? Cash flow needs had nothing to do with it?
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
The Fertitta family is in such bad financial shape that in the middle of Station Casino’s financial collapse he bought a 30million dollar vacation home in California. I am not missing the point at all here and no one has been able to show where the Fertitta family is “deeply in debt”. The Fertitta family and Station Casinos are two separate entities and Station’s bankruptcy can’t touch the Fertitta’s personal wealth because that isn’t part of Station. Hell even in this situation I am sure Frank Fertitta is still getting his paycheck from Station Casino’s. The UFC hasn’t needed Fertitta funding to operate since 2005, they aren’t funding it anymore they are making millions and millions of dollars off of it. The Fertitta family isn’t in debt, they just own shares in two different companies and one of them is having financial problems. This isn’t uncommon, heck the whole reason to have two separate companies is so that they are insulated from each other and the owners private finances.
The fact that there is talk about a equity reinvestment doesn’t mean that the Fertitta’s are having to get that money from Zuffa(and the money from Flash entertainment went to Zuffa not the Fertitta family) it just means that they are willing to put more equity into Station. Quite possibly more equity would mean they would have a bigger equity stake in Station, they aren’t paying Station’s debts they are buying a bigger chunk of the company. If they Fertitta family was deeply in debt then why would they go out and take a larger equity stake in a company stuck in bankruptcy?
by who me on Mar 12, 2010 11:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As far as the Flash entertainment issue I’ll cut paste from other articles. Maybe someone else’s writing will make the point better as I guess I am doing a good job of making the point.
Now, who is getting this money?
The 10% purchase is dilutive to the current shareholders (the Fertitta Brothers and Dana White). As a result of this transaction, the Fertittas now own 40.5% each (down from 45%), while Dana White now owns 9%. Flash Entertainment is now the third largest shareholder at 10%.
Zuffa, LLC issued NEW shares in the company to complete this transaction. This means that White and the Fertitta brothers didn’t sell any of their shares in the company – they were simply diluted.
If this were a case of the current shareholders “cashing” out, then they would not have issued new shares in the company. They simply would have sold a chunk of the existing shares.
So, all of this money is going into the company. What happens to the money once it is in the company is anybody’s best guess.
The UFC may simply be building up their cash reserves. The UFC may be planning on some kind of an acquisition. Or, maybe the UFC is going to pay down a substantial portion of the $450 million dollars in debt that they currently have. Only they know the answer to that question.
Some have said that the Fertitta brothers may have done this transaction for a reason related to Station Casinos, which is currently in Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
This doesn’t make sense to me though – if they were planning on trying to raise cash to make an offer for Station Casinos via the bankruptcy process, then why would they have issued new shares in Zuffa, LLC to Flash Entertainment? Why not just sell a portion of their existing shares in the company?
http://www.mma-king.com/2010/01/12/analyzing-the-ufcs-sale-of-a-10-stake-to-flash-entertainment/
It “should be very simple for people to get” that Zuffa and Station Casinos are “totally separate companies,” he said.
“There’s no connection other than the fact that me and (brother) Frank (Fertitta) own an interest in both companies,” Fertitta added.
Fertitta and his brother, Station Casinos Chairman and CEO Frank Fertitta III, along with high school friend and current UFC President Dana White, bought the UFC in 2001 for $2 million.
The two brothers own 81 percent of Zuffa. Although Lorenzo Fertitta oversees the company’s operations, Frank Fertitta III has no operational role in Zuffa.
Lorenzo Fertitta sits on Station Casinos’ board as vice chairman, but he resigned as Station’s president to focus on Zuffa in June 2008.
Although Lorenzo Fertitta repeatedly emphasizes that the sale to Flash was a strategic move to help the UFC enter the Middle Eastern and Asian regions, fight blogs immediately began trying to make a connection between the investment and a possible investment into Station Casinos.
Abu Dhabi controls the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund, with an estimated value of between $400 billion and more than $875 billion.
The issue reached The Wall Street Journal’s “Bankruptcy Beat” blog Jan. 13.
Paul Thistle, a professor and chairman of the finance department at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, said the division of the two companies is not unusual among entrepreneurs who often set up separate corporations to protect themselves in case one investment goes bad.
“If it was all one company, Station and UFC, then they would have to use the money from UFC to pay off the debt from Station Casinos,” Thistle said. “They’d have to legally because it’s all been borrowed by one company. This way, they’ve got two separate companies, so that actually protects the assets of UFC from the financial problems they’re having with the casinos. That is really what it comes down to.”
Flash Entertainment’s investment will not benefit Station Casinos, but it is already paying dividends for the UFC.
Even if the numbers are correct and at the low end of that spectrum (215,000-ish), I’m not worried. As a hardcore fan who had the privilege of watching Nog and Wandy during their Pride runs, it’s a bit disheartening that having both of them on a card didn’t draw better numbers, but I don’t expect too many of the post TUF fans to truly appreciate the greatness of either fighter. Throw in the fact that the challenger in the main event was still relatively new to casual fans, the fact that 109 happened 2 weeks prior, and the fact that no titles were on the line, and it’s just not too worrisome.
There’s a murderer’s row of events in the next couple of months, which should resurrect PPV buys. If the numbers are still sub-650,000 in June/July, then I think it’ll be time to reall worry.
This is a good thing
If a lot of people were buying the PPV’s with Couture/Coleman headliner the UFC has no reason to step it up.
They are not so the UFC has to step their game up. If the UFC doesnt then they are in trouble but not yet.
I hate to state the obvious...
But overseas cards, even if they are on at the normal time, are much more about growing the brand than the actual number of PPV buys. After splitting it down the middle at 250k buys you’re looking at 6mil to pay for fighter salaries, and the salaries of people required to put on the show. There weren’t really any huge cost fighters on the Aussie card, so I’d be really surprised to hear that even after the bonuses the fighter salaries broke a million.
That gives us 5 million, take out a million for travel for everyone/sanctioning/refs/whatever. That still leaves 4 million for basically the lowest end, granted these are all fuzzy numbers, but I’m also not taking into account any money paid to Zuffa to show the card on TV in Aussieland or anywhere else, nor the live gate/merch sales.
It’s hard to argue that somewhere around 3 to 4 million dollars in profit plus breaking into a new market in a big way is a bad thing. Injury cards/foreign cards/non-title cards are all going to have a noticeable impact on sales as well as oversaturation of the PPV market, specially when it’s been known for awhile amongst MMA fans that you’ve got some monster cards coming up soon. If the next few really nice cards are low, then worrying can commence, until then it’s all way too early.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
You make some good points
Also, didn’t UFC set a record for most merchandise sales, or something along those lines at UFC 110? It’s a small victory in the grand scheme of things, but still pretty cool. They also seem set on returning down under at least once a year, which can’t be too bad.
Maybe it’d be a good venture to have 12 cards or so a year on PPV, while using Spike to televise most of their shows from other countries…They kinda do this already with some of the cards from the UK, but maybe more casual fans would tune into watch the non-title/non-“marquee” fights if they were on Spike. Just a thought, unrealistic as it may be…
i touched on this on part 1
The prime reason Zuffa has been doing too many PPVs is that their plan to air the international UFC’s on HBO failed when that deal collapsed. They’re making a long-term investment in building the international audience, which is very smart, but they’re doing it at the cost of risking their domestic market.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
I think that is the specific question the next few PPV are going to answer...
Are they actually risking their domestic market, or is the domestic market self correcting in large part.
I think if you see the numbers stay low for the next 4 stacked cards 111-114 then I think you’ll be proven right, otherwise I think their domestic market just saw the stacked cards coming, most of which have been announced for a few months, and kept their powder dry so to speak.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
obviously the stacked card will do better
than the weak cards. But the key metric to look at is if the number that constitutes a stronger than the average UFC card rises or falls.
Follow me on Twitter @KidNate
Right...
But the question is will they average around 500k buys, or around 700k buys, specially considering the PPV’s will be dropping in saturated markets themselves due to UFC on Versus, and Gomi/Florian FN, and to a lesser extent WEC PPV.
Associate Writer - WindyCityGridiron.com
A sport can't draw without major draws
Isn’t this just a known fact? Isn’t this the reason that TNT doesn’t play Clippers/Nets? Why ESPN doesn’t show Pirates/Royals? Why BJ Flores doesn’t headline boxing ppvs and why Vince McMahon only lets like three different guys headline Wrestlemanias? Ultimately, all sports depend on their draws to pull in eyeballs. People watch the biggest names and big stars even on free TV. This effect is greatly intensified in PPV. UFC simply had a drought of main event draws that unfortunately lasted nearly six months. People saying “they should have canceled cards” are stupid on two fronts. First, nothing hurts momentum like canceling major events and upsetting ticketholders. Second, compressing two cards, ala 108 and 109 might strengthen the undercards considerably, but undercards do not sell. Main events sell. If neither Evans/Silva or Couture/Coleman was a drawing main event, combining them would have cost the UFC money, not made them money. The draws are returning, and with them, the eyeballs. Anyone who believed that the UFC was becoming such a powerful brand that their name alone would sell 500,000 buys is ignorant about the way the sports world works. The only exception in this country is the NFL, and I sincerely hope no one is arguing that the UFC is or ever will be anywhere the NFL in the US. Otherwise, though, people don’t buy into brands, they buy into stars. UFC just happens to have almost all of them, which blurred the line.
ufc 110 sold out in 1 day
ufc 111 is sold out
i am sure the entire cost of doing the show is always paid for in gate
ppv is basically just profit ….no?
by Richard Doughty on Mar 11, 2010 3:04 PM EST reply actions
All of this posts on this topic are shown to be irrelevant by using UFC 100 as a starting point.
Being worried that buys are down from UFC 100 is numbers (especially with the cards that have been put on recently) would be like saying the NFL is in trouble because preseason games had worse ratings than the Super Bowl.
UFC 100 was an outlier. Did people think that the numbers from that and 101 would push the UFC to “the next level” or something? yes. Did that happen? No. Does that mean the sky is actually falling? No.
by Phildo on Mar 11, 2010 3:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Did people think that the numbers from that and 101 would push the UFC to "the next level" or something? yes. Did that happen? No. Does that mean the sky is actually falling? No.
You’re about one question away from going all Frank Mir on us there, bud.
by TLow on Mar 11, 2010 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“Has Miguel Torres lost his last 2 fights? Yes. Is he still the greatest thing to happen to not only MMA but mankind as a whole? Yes.”
by ufc4 on Mar 11, 2010 6:12 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Not only now are we reaching about Zuffa being in trouble because of WEC doing average rating and UFC 110 doing a disapointing yet profitable show.
But now we’re back with the same bs about Station Casino’s which as has been explained multiple times before has no connection to what is going on with Zuffa wow.
Honestly Nate really needs to change his name to Mr. Fantastic because he’s reaching like crazy.
I'm in the over exposure camp.
Later this month the UFC will put on THREE EVENTS IN THE SPAN OF TEN DAYS: UFC on Versus: Vera vs. Jones, UFC 111: GSP vs. Hardy and UFC Fight Night: Florian vs. Gomi. They’ve done this a couple times before too. Starting just a week and some change after that more shows pop up. In all from March 21st to April 24th Zuffa will have put on 5 events, 3 of those will be on PPV. Who is willing to spend around $150 every 5 weeks or so just to stay in touch with their favorite sport? Football fans don’t have to. It’s just too much. If they stuck with ONE stacked card once a month along with a free event on Spike or Versus I think they would be golden still. I love the UFC but overall I just don’t get excited like I used to. PPV events were special and fun. They happen so often now it’s taken some of the luster out of it, I have a feeling a lot of people are having the same fatigue.
In short: The UFC has decided to take the road of quantity over quality and I think they’re hurting for it. Even if every card over the next 2 months rules it’s STILL too much. They need to tone is down a bit and get some of that excitement back.
by robotplague on Mar 11, 2010 4:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Fully agree. I remember thinking back during the MachidaShogun fight and being really hyped becuase there had been a decent size gap since there had been a Zuffa card on. Its just all too much these days. I have to keep explaining to my wife why we cant go out ballroom dancing because theres another fight on the next weekend.
Mike Goldberg: "You know Joe, When Matt and his brother Mark Hughes were growing up, they would pound each other behind the barn."
by xFenixKnightx on Mar 11, 2010 5:05 PM EST up reply actions
I`m going to wait until after 111. If those numbers are shite, that`s time to panic.
Keep firing Assholes!
Blackout is always right
Can GSP keep alive the UFC’s riddum?
New Orleans Saints - 2010 Super Bowl Champions. Unbelievable. Who Dat.
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better. -Samuel Beckett
by Scott C. Broussard on Mar 11, 2010 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
I think overexposure is doing it. I personally feel much less inclined to pay when there isn’t a belt, and when there isn’t as much of a storyline leading up to it. A couple of these just sort of popped out of nowhere to me, I had no desire to spend my hard earned money on it. I will though for GSP and Brock and Anderson and BJ though. There are a handful of fights that I will shell out for that aren’t title fights, but for the most part I can’t exactly afford to pay out the nose more than once a month. If the UFC tried making alternative ways to watch it for cheaper than I might be tempted, but they don’t seem to be interested in doing that.
As a bit of a reality check, you might keep in mind that an event selling 250k PPVs at $44.95 is making nearly $11M in PPV revenue. Obviously not factored in are the amounts the cable companies take, but also factor in sponsor money, live gate, merchandise, and the higher priced HD PPVs (I wonder what percentage of PPVs are sold in HD?)
I would think that even on the worst selling events of 2009, UFC/Zuffa is making a nice chunk of change. It seems like everyone expects UFC 100 numbers out of every event, and that’s retarded. That was a stacked card with a bunch of big stars, and the anniversary angle etc. etc. etc. etc. Just because that was in the stratosphere doesn’t mean that selling 300k PPV is failure.
Luckily Zuffa is a privately owned company, and don’t have idiot stockholders or share prices to worry about over baseless panic like this. But you can bet you’re ass they’re making money on every card.
you must have never been a stock holder
we dont know how much of a profit they make b/c we dont know all their expenses
the demand for the product is dropping – the PPV #s prove it
“idiot” stockholders put pressure on management and more importantly hold them accountable for their actions…if you were a major stockholder (owner) wouldnt you be pissed if the company you owned started doing worse and worse with no answer to their drop in demand
as for me…i am only buying the Shogun and rampage fights in the near future – other than that i think the other cards are not worth my $$…i would rather buy stocks with it
I hope your
stock picks are better than your fighter picks.
maybe im alone in this but I love the amount of fights they’ve been delivering as of lately..
people complain that those cards are not stacked with big names, but every single one of them is a great investment AND turning a profit..
George Sotiropolis was in a couple of those cards that were low in buys and he’s got a very bright future as far as talent and tapping into a huge australian audience..
every single recent event has had numerous positives regardless of having current big names or not… THESE events to me are a good investment that I gurantee will help in the long run as far as building stars, new viewers, hitting new distribution deals and branching out. And as an MMA fan i’ve loved every single one of them.
Georges fight
was worth the price of the PPV by itself. That was a clinic.
...
Seems pretty simple to me: when the UFC has multiple stars on the card it will do big numbers. If not, it won’t.
Is there really anything more to add? Pretty much every single one of their draws were out of action for various reasons at the same time. You surely cannot expect 500 k plus buys for a card headlined by Nog and Cain..?
If people really think 200 to 300 k buys for a show featuring no stars is bad then i think you’ve set your expectations far, far too high.
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