Massachusetts State Athletic Commission Approves Double Weigh-In Provision
In an interesting move that is much different than that of the weigh-in policies across the country, the Massachusetts State Athletic Commission has approved an initiative to hold double weigh-ins:
The Massachusetts "double weigh-in" provision calls for a fighter to be weighed in no more than 36 hours before his fight and again on the night of the fight. The fighter cannot weigh more than 1.0625 times his initial weight on the second weigh-in.
The formula means the higher the weight, the higher the allowable weight gain. For example, a fighter contracted to fight at 135 pounds can’t come in higher than 143.4375 pounds on fight night, 170 pounders cannot exceed 180.625, 205 pounders cannot exceed 217.8125 pounds, etc.
The provision was voted upon during an emergency vote as the commission's power to regulate combat sports in the state came into power on March 1st. Since the state had no regulations regarding mixed martial arts on the books, the vote was passed in an emergency session and will only be in place for ninety days. Within the period however, it's likely the state athletic commission will formulate a more permanent set of regulations.
While Marc Ratner, the UFC’s vice president of regulatory affairs, stated that it likely won't deter the UFC from visiting cities like Boston, he also noted that North Carolina has a similar rule in which fighters can't weight more than 13 pounds over their weight limit at fight time. The promotion will head to North Carolina for UFC Fight Night 21 at the end of March.
Many fighters within the promotion won't be affected, especially those within the confines of the WEC -- but fighters such as Thiago Alves, Georges St. Pierre, and a few other welterweights and heavyweights could be affected. At 170 pounds, a fighter is only allowed to gain around 10 pounds between the two weigh-ins. It's been rumored in the past that St. Pierre beefs back up to 185 after weigh-ins, and that type of gain would have to be stopped.
Brock Lesnar and any other large heavyweight cutting down to 265 will also have some problems as the maximum weight allowed is 281 pounds. Reports have indicated that Lesnar has ballooned to 290 pounds, and Shane Carwin has even been quoted as stating he'd balloon to 290 pounds as well.
There are plenty of other fighters that fall into the same category, but will this actually be a problem for some of these fighters? It could, but it's more than likely not going to be an issue. Most of these fighters could simply gain the weight back, and only cut around 4-5 pounds in the sauna before the second weigh-in. Whether or not that would actually hinder their performance in the cage is another question.
The UFC could simply avoid stacking those cards with fighters they have knowledge will have problems with that sort of regulation, so it shouldn't be a real problem for that promotion. It'll be interesting to see if some of the bigger name fighters are left off those cards, and whether the commission will end up nixing the provision in order to gain those bigger names and revenues.
Update by Brent Brookhouse: I have a piece on this up on SB Nation. In it I take a look at the very real, very scary potential health problems that are created by this double weigh-in.
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Maybe I'm playing the Devil's Advocate here...
but i think this is a great idea. Some fighters outweigh their opponents on fight night by so much that its ridiculous… *cough*BROCKLESNAR*cough*
The rest... is virtually identical
So you’re problem is with Brock Lesnar who is a heavyweight who cuts from 285 vs. someone like Glieson Tibau who is a LW who cuts from 195?
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by Matthew Roth on Mar 11, 2010 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
Further evidence that BJ Penn is a better P4P fighter...
Than GSP!!!
I am not a BJ nuthugger, but BJ is a much stronger fighter at his respective/natural weight than GSP is…
If GSP is a natural 170lber…
BJ is a natual 135 or 125 lber!!!
Bj fared better against GSP than GSP would fare against Anderson Silva…
BJ is #1 by far….on the so called P4 P list
I think it’s a good idea in some cases, but my main concern is that some of these guys will be cutting twice and become lethargic much quicker in the cage. That’s somewhat a safety concern in my mind.
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by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
No one’s making them do that though. They’re choosing to cut that much weight to gain a supposed advantage. Depending on how this initiative plays out, it could force certain fighters to either risk being lethargic in the fight, or to fight in their natural weight class.
Yes, that’s true.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions
I agree that this rule makes bouts more competitive. If a fighter wants to try to retain massive weight advantages, he or she is going to have to do so at great risk to his or her health.
Fighter safety is important, but I don’t think ACs can be expected to stop fighters from absolutely stupid, life-endangering behavior with regards to their training and weight cutting. Hell, a fighter might think snake venom gives them a competitive edge or that getting the flu before a fight will make weight loss easier, but you can’t expect ACs to make provisions for every potentially boneheaded move a fighter might make.
Smart fighters who value their health will adjust to this rule as it’s intended. Let the stupid fighters risk their health with double cuts.
thank you
It’ll be nice to watch some fair fights!!!!!!
There are going to be some guys in big trouble, since they don’t get to far outweigh their opponent. *cough*lesnar*cough*
This is needed very badly, and I can only hope that every state goes to this.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I realize that Lesnar isn’t the only one who cuts a lot of weight to make weight for fights, i was just using him as an example. Plus, nobody cares about Tibau anyway.
The rest... is virtually identical
by randy maverick on Mar 11, 2010 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I see alot fewer major events being held in Mas...
Promoters will hate the idea of a fighter getting disqualified because he put on too much weight after the initial weigh in, I would suspect.
HEALTH PROBLEMS!
As I put in the update. Check out the SBNation.com/mma article on this that I wrote earlier this morning.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 9:29 AM EST reply actions
Yes, health problems would be a problem… and having lethargic fighters along with a higher risk of head trauma is a very real outcome to this policy. The only problem I see is that some promoters will say that they’ve had people barely make weight and then fight without any problems, which is somewhat true in some cases. In my experience, fighters who barely made weight seemed more likely to be hurt by punches, which supports the theory that the brain has more room to move and concuss.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
If they want to do double weigh-ins this is the complete wrong way to do it. They should be weighing a fighter 4-7 days out from the fight and then again at the regular weigh in.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 9:30 AM EST reply actions
I think that would be a lot better if their concern is safety.
It seems more practical to ensure that people cut properly instead of trying to prevent ballooning up after the original weigh in, because that will prevent proper hydration at the fight, which is more dangerous than fighting a bigger person and cutting too quickly.
The missing question is, “when is the second weigh in?” The promoter should get this second weigh in done as early as possible, fighters can do the first weigh in, put on 10 pounds, wait for the second weigh in, then hydrate properly.
The second weigh-in is on the day of the fights.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions
yea, but a day is 24 hours long.
Can they weigh in at 12:01 AM? On the way to the cage? 20 minutes before their fight? 20 minutes before the show starts?
Well, I’m going to assume they aren’t assholes… but I guess that wouldn’t be prudent here since most ACs practice ignorance.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
but that’s the whole thing. If it’s very close to the fight, it can lead to dehydration and be bad, if it’s too early, people are still going to rehydrate/gain weight after this weigh in, and it’s kind of pointless. All it will do is keep the people who want to put on more weight dehydrated for a few more hours.
Right.
Hence why I think it’s going to be fairly close to fight time.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 9:59 AM EST up reply actions
It’s not very safe under the current rules to be a natural 185’er and then fight someone who cuts weight like a wrestler and shows up at the fight at 200+ pounds.
If re-hydration becomes an issue it just goes to show their cut is significant and probably should be illegal anyways.
I hope one day there is not such a large difference between the weight class and the fighter’s weight come fight night in the future, it is getting to be ridiculous and no good can come from it.
by DirtyML on Mar 11, 2010 9:39 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’re right, fighting someone who weighs 10 pounds more than you is much more dangerous than the dangers of fighting dehydrated.
That’s why Brock Lesnar, Bob Sapp, and Hong Man Choi are undefeated against smaller opponents.
by Phildo on Mar 11, 2010 9:41 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny how all of your examples relied on the only weight class with more than a 15 pound differential.
Go onnnnnnn
OK, Thiago Alves, Forrest, GSP, Anthony Johnson, tibau…
by Phildo on Mar 11, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah dude.
Yoshida sure showed Rumble that technique will always trump size.
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I hope all states ratify this, because there is no point in weight classes if the guy you are fighting is outweighing you by 10+ pounds.
It makes the sport safer and more competitive when people are actually fighting in the proper weight class, as opposed to the weight class where their cut gives them the biggest benefit.
by DirtyML on Mar 11, 2010 9:32 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
furthermore
How many guys who aren’t wrestling-based will complain about this?
Uh huh, that’s right – I said it.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions
how many guys that aren’t bjj based complain about standups?
uh, huh, that’s right — i said something equally useless.
what do standups have to do with weight classes
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
nothing.
What does wrestling based people complaining have to do with anything nothing.
people like to pick on wrestlers for being able to weight cut, but no one cares that machida started karate when he was born and what not.
It’s a skill get over it.
who's picking on wrestlers?
wrestlers that have to cut will be the ones affected by this, duh
now that all the rules are so in the wrestler’s favor, it’s nice to see the playing field equalled a little, that’s all
no one’s questioning your manhood phildo, no need to get all up in arms
wrestler’s will be the one’s complaining about this (and their nuthuggers), because they won’t be able to lay and pray while outweighing their opponent by ridiculous margins (Maynard, Tibau, Sherk, Guida, Brock, Shields@170) — that’s what it has do with, genius
no one’s hating on wrestler’s, just will be glad to see more fair fights (I keep saying that)…I can’t wait to see what Lesnar does against someone his own size, I’m not interested in seeing him beat on and then lay on people 50-70 pounds less than him
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
what do headstomps have to do with weight classes?
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
gotcha
sorry for boring you, I’ll have to work on my game
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 12, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions
I’m kinda up in the air on this. I like the idea of a double weigh in, but the margin they give is still enough to not really be all that preventative health wise to a fighter who cuts weight. It only edges out a few fighters who can just not fight there.
As for the article on the double weight cut; I’m not so sure that an argument about a fighter choosing to cut weight twice instead of just fighting closer to their appropriate natural weight is all that great. That’s more the fighters fault than the rule.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
It’s one of those things that needs to be taken into account though.
It is the fighter’s fault, but they’re going to do it anyway (just like they have done forever). If the outcome of a rule has two outcomes (people fighting closer to their natural weight, or significant brain injury) you need to take both of them into account, and weigh the pros and cons.
it would be nice to think that people would just fight closer to their natural weight, but people won’t do that.
yea, my only thought was that it being in one state like this; it really wont’ effect any change and would encourage a fighter to cut twice. But as a rule itself and if adopted more widespread, I think it might encourage people to fight closer to their natural weight or at least not cut drastic the way a handful of guys do.
Because in the long run, cutting twice and being dehydrated at fight time is not very smart for your long term success. You can get away with it maybe for some fight you schedule in this state, but if it were everywhere, all the time; then I don’t see fighters doing it much at all.
"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey
by JeremyShane on Mar 11, 2010 10:17 AM EST up reply actions
Some fighters may cut twice though because the second cut could simply be 4-5 pounds, not exactly a hard cut at all.
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"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
by Leland Roling on Mar 11, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
I highly recommend the link to Brent's post
I was initially skeptical, but he makes a compelling case about dehydrated brains being more susceptible to concussion/bruising because there is more room between the grey matter and the skull for it to jostle in. Physics FTW.
█♣█
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Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z
Much of that is the reason why they moved weigh-ins to the day before rather than the day of.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
That’s the whole point. Adjust the weigh-in’s and weight differentials so fighters need to fight closer to their natural weight class.
If they don’t cut so much weight, there isn’t a danger of being dehydrated.
by WestbergIDFC on Mar 11, 2010 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and by that i mean… they just ignore the traditional weightclasses, and have the fighters agree to fight at a weight closer to what they weigh on fight night. and why not? they can schedule fights at 195, or even 215 (for kimbo). what’s the difference?
one thing is for sure, Mass wont be helding a UFC event for a long time
I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand
Whatnr they trying to accomplish?
Because the only thing they r going to accomplish is having fighters coming into fights dehydrated, tired, and someone is going to get hurt badly.
I’m sure many fighters will refuse to fight there. You can’t legislate weight cutting. Guys r going to do it no matter what. Every solution to curb weight cutting just puts fighters in jeopardy.
The ability to cut weight is a skill and talent just as much as good carido or punching power. The fact that guys like Alves can get down that low and still fight the next day is a testement to their body type and dicipline to make the weight. For commissions to take away that advantage is wrong.
by JimJoe on Mar 11, 2010 10:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions
What's the point in having weight classes if the fighters aren't the same weight?
Not trying to start shit with you, just tired of watching guys get beat ONLY because they are giving up so much weight to someone IN THEIR WEIGHTCLASS.
I’m all for fair fights.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 2:56 PM EST up reply actions
It's "fair" when under the rules they weigh the same approx. 24 hours before the fight.
Why let a guy that can punch really really hard fight a guy that can’t punch that hard? That’s not fair is it? It’s fine because punching hard has a lot to do with skill, training, and most importantly god given talent. Just like cutting weight.
Some people have the ability to come into a fight a bit heavier than their opponent because they can dehydrate themselves a bit harder than others. It is a REAL SKILL and talent.
There are so few guys that cut extreme amounts of weight this shouldn’t be an issue. Why should a fighter have to watch his diet, water intake and go into a fight hungry because he may be a pound or 2 over. Every fighter should have the ability to clear their head of anything but preparing to fight, and doing what they have trained for and not worrying about what they can and cannot eat and drink.
well, I can't say I disagree with any of that
Like I said, I just want to see fair fights. If a guy outweighs his opponent by ten or more pounds, that is not fair.
If that is allowed, why have weight classes, is all I’m saying.
But, more important than anything is safety, and whatever makes it safest for everyone is what I want.
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 8:33 PM EST up reply actions
We also assume that fighters are smart enough not to fight when injured or sick, but that happens all the time. Jorge Gurgel fought on TUF with blown out ACL, Forrest Griffin fought Tito on a broken foot, Diego Sanchez fought Koscheck with a nasty staph infection, etc.
Fighters are willing to take absolutely insane risks to gain an edge. It is one of the universal truths of all pro sports.
Because fighters are too stupid to do it...
or rather…their competitive drive makes them do things that a rational mind may not.
There are tons of legitimate health problems associated with performance enhancing drugs but that doesn’t stop fighters (and other athletes) from using them.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
you got a point there
hopefully this will just be the start of better overall health for all fighters
by CaptainSpaulding on Mar 11, 2010 2:57 PM EST up reply actions
So the penalty for missing weight is a forfeit?
Good luck getting promoters to come to the state with that rule.
Could you imagine buying tickets for Lesnar-Mir 3 at the Garden only to discover a few hours before the event that Lesnar had to forfeit due to missing weight? Better yet, imagine being Dana White and losing 500K PPV buys because the Massachusetts commission just declared your main event a forfeit.
If they do this everywhere
The ufc would haft to make more weight divisions. Thats the only way this would work out.
" Im surprised GSP can get his jeans on with all these people clinging to his nuts"- Dan Hardy
“Many fighters within the promotion won’t be affected, especially those within the confines of the WEC…”
I really disagree with this. I’m not even good at weight cutting and for my last comp I weighed in at 143.5 and was 156 before I even went to bed, let alone the next day. It has to be assumed that people who do this professionally are much better than I am.
Were you IV rehydrating or just drinking?
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
I don't like ACs coming up wiht thier own rules
Having unified rules is really important for the sport. Whenever I throw MMA on people are always asking about the rules. Can you elbow? Can you headbutt? Eye gouge? Sure the weigh in rule might not be that confusing, but what’s the logical next step? No elbows? Grappling Pants? Soccer Kicks?
We really need consistency.
people say that, but in reality, the unified rules are not that unified.
NJ and Nevada have different rules about scoring incomplete rounds. Different states have different times/penalties for weigh ins/missing weight. Different states have different drug testing rules/procedures/tests/penalties/etc.
The unified rules really don’t go beyond what are considered “fouls” in the sport.
Didn't know that
I think saying basically Brock Lesnar can’t fight at heavyweight is a a pretty big deal. Bigger than the stuff above.
in cases of moderate dehydration, it would normally take a participant a minimum of 48 to 72 hours to completely replenish their body fluid to normal levels. The problem is that most weigh-ins take place within 24 hours of the competition. So that may be a moot point.
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 11:30 AM EST reply actions
Anyone think that if this became a nationwide standard (and that’s a very big if), the UFC would actually add the franklinweight and kimboweight classes just to keep some fighters happy? Like AJ could never make welter anymore but could be perfect for franklinweight
"So I put 2 and 2 together and decided that your pissing me off" "Here. Its a fruit roll up. I was gonna make you a casserole for your loss but uh... I didnt"
"So its sorta like that movie the predator, except for hunting people hes takin a crap" - Carl from ATHF
by II SMASH II on Mar 11, 2010 11:35 AM EST via mobile reply actions
They’d probably have to add 160, 177, 195, 220
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
Sorry...that should have said 162
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by Brent Brookhouse on Mar 11, 2010 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
lol have a champ at every 10 pound interval
How’s that for more title fights
"So I put 2 and 2 together and decided that your pissing me off" "Here. Its a fruit roll up. I was gonna make you a casserole for your loss but uh... I didnt"
"So its sorta like that movie the predator, except for hunting people hes takin a crap" - Carl from ATHF
by II SMASH II on Mar 11, 2010 11:48 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Seems like the beginning of a slippery slope. Adding 4 weight classes to compensate for a rule change could be devastating to the competitive balance of the sport.
Why do we need weight classes, again?
Prudent match ups and one or two titles that meander up and down in weight as smaller and larger fighters rise and fall?
What's the solution?
I think about this a lot: has the skill level gotten to the point where the weight classes are too big? I don’t like the idea of smaller weight classes because it becomes too confusing and there would be a high number of shallow classes rather than a small number of deeper ones, but it seems like someone like Anthony Johnson or GSP has a huge advantage over most people in his weight class (most people, not all people) because of his size.
In the old days, it didn’t matter as much because smaller guys would often be BJJ guys and the bigger fighters didn’t have the skill base to defend subs and use their power to their advantage in every fight. Now that basically everyone has some BJJ defense, the weight classes come more into play. In other words, most people can defend/power out of submissions if they significantly outweigh their opponents, or at least it’s easier.
By this reckoning, the best fights are between people who naturally weigh the same. I think that’s what my fellow Massholes are going for, though I’m not sure how to do it best.
It seems like people like Mir are consciously putting on weight so that they fit a weight class, which may become more and more necessary. Like if I naturally weigh 178 lbs, I try to put on enough muscle to become a big welterweight. Does anyone know if this is common practice.
Use all ten points.
Nothing will change the event of fighters who could easily fit into two different weight classes...
sometimes it works out for them, like GSP and AJ…sometimes it works against them, like Diego Sanchez.
Or I guess my question is:
Could Diego work on bulking up and really being a sizable 170? Or is he just screwed?
Use all ten points.
I think he is one of those unfortunate guys...
who will be a little small for 170, but too skinny to have power at 155.

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