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The Objective Retrospective: Pride (and Prejudice)

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via img29.imageshack.us

Apologies for the mawkish sentiment, but there's something heartwarming about the photo above isn't there? Some of the photos are funny to laugh at rather than with: for example, Butterbean looks like his picture was taken while the photographer was waving a chicken fried steak the size of Mitsuhiro Ishida in front of him. Then there's poor Olaf. That's probably not an actual picture: just a photo taken of a hallowed out Alfonso facsimile on John Shorley's mantle wall.

Others make you want to smile as bright as the fighters are themselves.

But then UFC 110 slaps us in the face like Cain's right hand, and reminds us that so many of these people feel more like ghosts. Or so says traditional narrative.

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via www.cdn.sherdog.com

Is Nog washed up, or is Cain really that good? Did Mirko simply look good against a tomato can, or did he show signs of improvement? Is Wandy back, or is it telling that he couldn't put away a MW gatekeeper in Michael Bisping? The problem for a lot of people when answering these questions skirts an unfortunate sense of revisionism. On the one hand, there are fans and observers who mourn the depreciation of Mirko, Nog, and Wand. "These guys would have destroyed their UFC opponents in 2004", you can almost hear them say (if not outright).   

Personally I think a lot of this misses the real narrative: the barometer for success is being raised. It's an obvious enough point I guess, but sometimes I suspect people still don't get it. There's a level of nostalgia surrounding the old hunting grounds known as Pride that reveals the fanboy in us all, but that fanboy sometimes looks less like a sucker for the past, and more like the Star Wars geek who is 40 years old, and ignored the social joys of being next to a living breathing female in order to rebuild his bed in the shape of the Death Star.

Am I a scrooge to mock sites like PrideNeverDie as nothing more than arrested development in Japanese-fetish clothing?

Star-divide

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via img148.imageshack.us

It's not that I don't appreciate Pride. It was a great organization. I missed (literally) the Sakuraba years, but became well acquainted with it in 2002, mostly through online results. And yes, like all good MMA, loved it. But I never felt the need to romanticize Pride, like some do. I get the sense that for some observers, both professional and non, Pride was as good as it got: the equivalent of the Ali era in HW boxing, or something incredibly stupid. 

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via img32.imageshack.us

I've heard the phrase "the golden era" (of MMA) be used to describe Pride, but it's a phrase that is so laughably hyperbolic, I'm shocked it's ever been uttered to begin with. For sure, there were some incredible moments. Nobody who ever witnessed Bushido 9, or Final Conflict 2003 (among several others) can deny this. But the problems in Pride were similar the ones that plague organizations we currently criticize: lack of forward thinking (Dream), being averse to diligent prospect hunting (Strikeforce), and shoddy management (EliteXC/Affliction) were practically hallmarks, but they were problems easily glossed over by a grandiose product.

Yet look at Fedor's last 3 fights in Pride: Zulu, Mark Hunt, and Mark Colemen. Gomi's last 4 fights? David Baron, Aurelio, Ishida, and Diaz. Shogun's last 4 fights in Pride were to Diabete, Randleman, Nakamura, and Overeem before he swallowed Ed-209.

I chose those three, because they were more or less the cream of the crop towards Pride's end in their most heralded divisions. And yet look at that competition. Even without hindsight, many of those names are terrible considering guys like Shogun, and Fedor were already well established. There were no prospects being farmed, and the superfights were thinning. Pride's last card featured Jeff Monson and Kazyuki Fujita as the main event. Need I say more? But just in case: Aoki fought on that card but against an anti-prospect, Butterbean fought Zulu in a battle of sentient charter buses, and before there was Zaromskis, there was Zelg Galesic, who Zaromskis will ironically turn into unless his ground game improves.

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via img514.imageshack.us

The point of digging up Pride's "corpse" is that I think this prejudice sometimes blinds various observers and fans from seeing the big picture, and in some cases, stops us from truly appreciating what we have now. When Nog got obliterated, I sensed less optimism for the future, and more concerns about the past. But ask yourself? Even in Nog's prime, did he ever handle a well schooled high level wrestler who could put together crisp three punch combinations that were punctuated with solid low and high kicks? I don't mean that to be as rhetorical as it sounds, but I do believe the HW division as it good as it has ever been. Lesnar is essentially a prospect but is already champ. Valesquez, Carwin, Dos Santos, and even Duffee all seemed primed to make interesting challenges. Middle tier fighters have taken the form of men like Gonzaga (a far cry from Heath Herring) and I'll take a Pat Berry over Igor Vovchanchyn any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Hardcore fans may take offense to this, but as embarrassing as Berry's loss to Hague was, it can't be half as bad as being outboxed by Tra Telligmen.

Forget about "oversaturation" for a second, and look at MMA's own version of March Madness. Zuffa alone is presenting:

Georges St. Pierre vs. Dan Hardy

Miguel Torres vs. Joseph Benavidez

Frank Mir vs. Shane Carwin

Jon Fitch vs. Thiago Alves

Kenny Florian vs. Takanori Gomi

Jon Jones vs. Brandon Vera

Junior Dos Santos vs. Gabriel Gonzaga

Brian Bowles vs. Dominick Cruz

If this were a single card, it would stack up to the best Pride had to offer, and then some. Some people consider it a minus that these fights are being split across multiple cards but it's hard to ignore the many talented prospects/veteran beings showcased at the same time: Palhares, Taurosevicius, Guida, Kongo, Buentello, Struve, Nelson, Uno, Ronys, Okami, Ludwig, Pearson, Winner, Jim Miller, Bocek, Ellenburger/Saunders, Nate Diaz, Pellegrino, Almeida, etc.

All of this sandwiched between what turned out to be a solid February card (UFC 110), and what is looking to be an equally solid UFC 112 card. Some people look at that Dana White picture above and think unhappy thoughts. Go to a digital cesspool like the Sherdog forums, and it's practically an icon symbolizing the death of MMA. But that's because people don't seem to get that for all of Dana's bluster, he's a man that truly loves the sport. His curse-laden words may look to undermine that belief, but his actions in seeking to get MMA sanctioned in big markets like New York, and introducing the sport to places that were probably not even aware the sport existed (like Australia/Germany/Abu Dhabi) only validate it. Laying the roots for a European market for MMA speaks louder than the word "fuck" strung together too many times in one sentence.

All the while, careful consideration is being paid to the sport's future. And we see that in the sports' athletes. Look at Cain Valesquez: Cain didn't benefit from fighting a washed up Nog (although to be sure, Nog didn't look as good as he did against, say, Sergei Kharitonov). Rather, he benefited from careful grooming. Steps were taken to insure that Cain could develop his skills inside and outside of the cage without hindering his progress with aggressive matchmaking. Not to toot my own horn, but I picked Cain largely because of this. But the Cain that showed up that night wasn't the Cain that showed up against Denis Stojnic and that's why he won.

This, to me, was the real story of UFC 110: that the future is now. Watching icons of the past like Nog, Wand, and Mirko struggle all at once simply made it more obvious.

This not to say that MMA as is good as it will get, and the sport is not without its many problems. But like it or not, if there is such a thing as an MMA "golden era", we're a hell of a lot closer to that now than we ever were.  

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of Bloody Elbow readers and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bloody Elbow editors or staff.

Comment 41 comments  |  18 recs  | 

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Wow after reading that all I can say it well done.

by Raker on Mar 1, 2010 3:08 AM EST reply actions  

very nice, I agree with pretty much everything.

by DamnSevern on Mar 1, 2010 4:07 AM EST reply actions  

I love Pride, and definitely have some nostalgia for it, and for the fighters that have transitioned successfully to the UFC, even though I wasn’t even following MMA to any degree until Pride was nearing it’s end. But my education in the sport mainly consisted of a friend of mine showing me as many Pride events as he could get his hands on. But with that said, I whole-heartedly agree that we’ve only recently entered a true golden age, and are likely to be treated to an amazing next decade in the sport now that there’s serious money to be made by the top fighters. I’ll be still be desperately rooting for Wanderlei and Big Nog, though:)!

by Kwisatz Haderach on Mar 1, 2010 5:18 AM EST reply actions  

Gomi’s last 4 fights? David Baron, Aurelio, Ishida, and Diaz

What’s wrong with this? He got a rebound fight after losing to Aurelio, a rematch with Aurelio, a match with a guy who beat Aurelio before that rematch, and then Nick Diaz, who by all accounts is a pretty good fighter. I mean, who should he have fought?

by JRN on Mar 1, 2010 6:55 AM EST reply actions  

We always point to

Wanderlei Silva, Mirko Filipovic and Rodrigo Nogueira whenever we try to disprove Pride’s success in developing talent but at the same time we forget to note the “younger” ex Pride fighters like Mauricio Rua, Rogerio Nogueira, Quinton Jackson, Anderson Silva, Gegard Mousasi, Fedor Emelianenko, Shinya Aoki, Alistair Overeem etc who are doing currently doing fine in their careers.

If PrideFC continued to exist, I am very postive that there will still be new MMArtist from the organization who are going to be stars of this sport. Even though Pride did bring in the freakshows, it is false to say that never had the ability and/or vision to develop talent because they did..

Bringing up fighters who had tons of fights before their UFC careers as reference of Pride’s inferiority of talent and be declared Star Wars geek thinking otherwise is totally incorrect.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Mar 1, 2010 9:32 AM EST reply actions  

You’re missing the point.

I’m not talking about some silly “Pride vs. UFC” stand off and saying “look, the Pride guys aren’t doing as well”. Leave that shit for Sherdog.

I’m saying the sport as a whole, specifically in the UFC, now has a future that is being properly managed, and we’re reaping the rewards, with Cain being a good example. You’re listing a bunch of fighters who are doing well. Great. Not sure why, but great. Good for them. Many of them are a treat to watch. But that’s not what I’m concerned about: I’m concerned about the divisions they compete in, and seeing what steps are taken to insure worthy challengers are being fostered, or found.

I don’t want to see a round robin of Shogun/Quinton/Lil Nog, as we probably would have seen. I want to see what happens when a Phil Davis and a Jon Jones have had enough time to prepare, and are ready to challenge these men. Hell some people are even excited about Quinton fighting Rashad Evans: a one time TUF’er who is still learning the game.

Watching Fedor, Barnett, Mirko, and Nog battle for numero uno was fun, but what’s not so fun is when a division begins to stagnate, and there isn’t a Cigano, Cain, Lesnar, Duffee, or Carwin on the horizon. Pride did a good job of fucking even this up, as we never saw Fedor fight Barnett, or rematch Mirko. Worse yet, they had plenty of time to make this happen (call me crazy but I would preferred for them to scrap the Open Weight Grand Prix, and just have Fedor truly clean that division out while letting Wand fight Lil Nog- a fight that should have happened at Pride 33 as Hendo was coming off a loss to Misaki, and a lackluster win over Belfort).

I don’t care to speculate on what Pride would have done if they remained. They didn’t seem primed to make waves, but in any case, I don’t care. I’m just happier with what we have now and sometimes I think others are not (which to me is nuts).

by David Castillo on Mar 1, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I think the point vivero is trying to make

Is that you seem to have insinuated that Pride got a crop of stars from about 2000-2002 and never added anything to that. Yes, there was some absolutely fuck-tarded match-making in Pride. But it’s not like they were main-eventing shows with Igor Vovchanchyin in 2007 (who you would be out of your mind for passing over in favor of Pat Barry).

Pride saw the development of fighters like Shogun, Rampage, Fedor, and Gomi, and were poised to see a new crop of superstars in Shinya Aoki and Gegard Mousasi.

Thing is, they thrived by placing Spectacle over Sport. And while it’s great what Dana White and Zuffa are doing for MMA as an institution around the world, Pride knew what it was and didn’t pretend to be anything else. And goddamn it was fun while it lasted.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 1, 2010 4:46 PM EST up reply actions  

That’s seriously the thing I miss, the spectacle. A Pride intro still gives me goosebumps. Obviously it’s not the most important thing but it added that special something to the shows. If the UFC would just do that little extra spectacle, it would be surreal.

"I fight because I can’t sing, I can’t dance, and it beats working all day. Now ask me a question that doesn’t sound so fucking stupid." – Phil Baroni

by midwestbred on Mar 1, 2010 7:49 PM EST up reply actions  

I love the ramp

I understand that’s probably a few hundred/thousands of seats in an arena, and the freakin Tokyo Dome could spare it, but fuck the walk down the ramp was EPIC

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 2, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

but this is a very thoughtful, well-written piece... kudos

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 1, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Nothing in my post refered to the silly Pride vs UFC stand off.

and there isn’t a Cigano, Cain, Lesnar, Duffee, or Carwin on the horizon

These HWs were mainly after Pride collapse, they could have fought in the organization if it continued to exist. At one time, UFC HW division was all about Arlovski and Sylvia.

I understand your point that UFC is great at creating new talents and I totally agree, they are the best at it. I just think its wrong to say that Pride never did that. The freakshows were there, but meaningful fights also did happen both for the established fighters and prospects.

I am. I think. I will. - Ayn Rand

by vivero on Mar 2, 2010 8:24 AM EST up reply actions  

Very solid and well-written

especially the part asking whether Nog ever handled a wrestler who could strike. Cain would have beat Nog in his prime, it just might have taken longer.

█♣█
A wise man told me don't argue with fools
Cause people from a distance can't tell who is who -- Jay-Z

by thetakeover on Mar 1, 2010 9:56 AM EST reply actions  

Ballsy to link to a prediction article where you got more wrong than right.

I like it.

More to the point, your articles are always extremely well-written, even if I disagree with your argument. Is the best talent that we have seen yet in the sport converging in the UFC? Yes, but this is to be expected in a sport that is still growing exponentially. The thing about the glory days of PRIDE was that there just wasn’t anything like it, and there likely won’t be ever again. MMA has and will likely always be both sport and spectacle, and while the UFC has cornered the market in sport, PRIDE blended the two in such a way that it was seamless. We can agree that the glory days of PRIDE were a bit overstated in terms of skill, but when it came to the whole package PRIDE definitely delivered.

Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.

by lowellthehammer on Mar 1, 2010 10:33 AM EST reply actions  

Oh, and one more thing.

Igor Vovchanchyn is fucking awesome, and saying you’d rather see Barry is akin to blasphemy.

Without pain, without sacrifice, we would have nothing.

by lowellthehammer on Mar 1, 2010 10:37 AM EST up reply actions  

You bring up a good point, which is something I meant to address. Personally I didn’t care for the glitz and the glamor. I don’t care that Lenny Hardt is screaming out the names of the fighters, and fireworks are not my main concern when the world’s top MMA athletes compete against one another, but I completely understand the allure.

As for the Barry/Igor thing, I knew I’d get some shit for that. I’m not saying he’s “better” in the strictest sense, but I guarantee you: throw Barry in a cage with the guys Igor fought and made highlights of and Barry would paint a Mona Lisa with these men in a way even Igor couldn’t match.

by David Castillo on Mar 1, 2010 2:58 PM EST up reply actions  

You're as cold as ice

The difference between Igor & Barry are that Igor was considered the top HW for a period of time. He was at the pinnacle of the sport; HD hasn’t even cracked the top 10. Granted, Pat has a huge upside, but to say that Barry is better (despite the fact that Vovchanchyn has clearly done better than Pat ever has against their respective peers) is ludicrous.

Apart from that, good article. It’s true that some people are dogmatic in their love for PRIDE, and part of that is the fact that it kind of goes against the establishment, which is ‘cool’.

Supporting all Las Vegas MMA. Xtreme Couture- "The Best Never Rest!"

Go Gonzaga! G-O-N-Z-A-G-A

by ElliotMatheny on Mar 1, 2010 1:06 PM EST reply actions  

If anything, I think this just reinforces his point.

Igor was the pinnacle of the division for a time, but if you got Doc Brown to send Pat Barry back in time, Igor would probably lose to him. That doesn’t diminish Igor’s standing as an important contributor to where we are today (and someone who gave us very exciting fights), but it’s important to recognize that today’s mid-card/Spike prelim guys are better fighters on the whole. It sounds obvious to some people, but others play the “______ in his prime would smoke these guys” card when it just isn’t true. And I think the real point of the article is that some people’s nostalgia for PRIDE makes them say those fighters were better, in a purely objective sense, than they were.

50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
If you didn't like this comment, make sure not to read my posts at Sack Mike Goldberg.

by Dodectagon on Mar 1, 2010 5:03 PM EST up reply actions  

I always hear this side of the argument, but what if we turned it on it’s head? What if we take a guy like Igor and give him the same quality fight teams, cardio-techniques, and the overall development of MMA as an institution? Same people, different era. It’s not like Pat Barry is a higher species or something. He just gets the benefit of being born a few years later.

WAR VOVCHANCHYN

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 1, 2010 6:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

The snobbery of chronology. Was Edison smarter than Newton? No of course not.

The man known simply as "Christmas Cheesesteak"

by Neil Manich on Mar 3, 2010 3:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Vovchanchyn was not Edison, or even a Johann Becher

The prejudice for nostalgia. Was Igor not a one dimensional fighter who made his name off of Ukrainian bums, and a doped out Kerr (by all means, tell me about Sakuraba)?

Vovchanchyn was a fun, exciting fighter who was an artist with overmatched fighters. But please don’t pretend he was some kind of all time great who didn’t get beat by any decent (fresh) fighter he ever faced.

by David Castillo on Mar 3, 2010 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I just watched him get demolished by Mario Sperry the other day!

"I'm AJB and I endorse this nut-puncher."

by AJB on Mar 4, 2010 8:43 AM EST up reply actions  

MMA as whole has gotten better

If you look at the type of fights being put on in the last days of Pride and compare it to the same fights being put on in the UFC at that time, some of the UFC fights weren’t so compelling either.

that being said, MMA as a whole is a lot better now /agree

I remember PRIDE mostly because it has such a unique flavor, and it’s truly a spectacle (if not the pinnacle of sport).

by IpullguardIRL on Mar 1, 2010 1:50 PM EST reply actions  

All the pride fighters are in the twilights of their careers and to compare 2004 mma to 2010 mma is downright absurd, no matter what team you are on. Pride was a beautiful, grotesque laboratory of violence and technique, and the reason Cain’s technique has grown so fast in so short a time is because he is following a blueprint drafted slowly, fight after fight, by nog, shogun, fedo and others.

 

Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.

by judonerd on Mar 1, 2010 2:11 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

All the pride fighters are in the twilights of their careers

Shogun, Rampage, Lil Nog, and Hendo all think you’re exaggerating…

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 1, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Pardon the generalization.

Sure glad Lesnar got his shit straightened out.

by judonerd on Mar 1, 2010 11:06 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

It’s all gravy… your point isn’t invalid

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 2, 2010 1:18 AM EST up reply actions  

I think this was a brilliant write-up (because it reinforces several things I think, duh), even if some people missed the point to some extent.

50% more Ultimate than the leading competitor.
If you didn't like this comment, make sure not to read my posts at Sack Mike Goldberg.

by Dodectagon on Mar 1, 2010 4:54 PM EST reply actions  

i think you're making a mistake

in labeling dana’s efforts to extend the zuffa brand as love for mma. it might be, who knows, but so far he has a distinct financial involvement and stands to gain a lot whenever a new state or country let’s the ufc or wec across it’s borders. i’ve not heard of dana doing much, if anything for mma that didn’t directly improve zuffa’s business and therefore dana’s bank account. i come neither to praise nor bash dana, but he’s a business man first and foremost.

by K Krush on Mar 1, 2010 5:35 PM EST reply actions  

Do you ever watch his open Q&A?

Dana can be called a lot of bad things but he is first and foremost a HUGE MMA fan. You can see the passion and excitement on his face when he talks boxing or MMA. Dana wants to see the best fights, you can argue that fact all you want but he has put on more top MMA fights than any other person.

by Riney on Mar 1, 2010 5:46 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm not questioning his love or his fandom

i’m questioning whether his love is the main motivator for the majority of the things he does. if you could give me instances where he helped mma without specifically helping zuffa and thus himself, i’d be interested in hearing it. and again, i’m not bashing dana, i just think that the pro-dana people and the anti-dana people both tend to forget that he’s a biz nessman.

by K Krush on Mar 1, 2010 6:26 PM EST reply actions  

Pride is dead. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. Move on people!!!

Keep firing Assholes!

Blackout is always right

by Ubernoober on Mar 1, 2010 6:49 PM EST reply actions  

PRIDE NEVER DIE!

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 1, 2010 6:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah, and Elvis is still alive too.

Keep firing Assholes!

Blackout is always right

by Ubernoober on Mar 1, 2010 7:01 PM EST up reply actions  

He married my cousins in Vegas last weekend

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Mar 1, 2010 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Your cousins got married?

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!

Keep firing Assholes!

Blackout is always right

by Ubernoober on Mar 2, 2010 9:53 PM EST up reply actions  

i'm so sorry for this

but you’re right.

they are alive.

in our hearts.

by K Krush on Mar 1, 2010 7:04 PM EST reply actions  

This is a really great post.

The one aspect that I don’t care for is using some of the old Pride contingent, who some have correctly characterized as being in the twilight of their careers, as proof positive that the current UFC/MMA scene is to superior to what it was when Pride was functioning. I don’t want to hear that I’ve missed the point. Yes, many people tend to view the past with a certain affection; this isn’t unique to MMA. Yes, the UFC is run in a far superior fashion, top to bottom, than was Pride. Dana White and the Fertitas have harnessed the model of pro-wrestling and mixed it with that of sports leagues like the NFL – the matches are more geared toward pure sport than theatrics – and developed a profitable venture which has real staying power. So, for my money, I’ll take the current UFC over Pride from several years ago any day.

Though Cain was able to dispense with Nog in quick, spectacular fashion, that doesn’t prove to me that the talent level of Pride was vastly overrated. Nor does it prove that Pride didn’t cultivate young talent to a certain extent. In fact, we’re still very early in the development of MMA. The shortcomings and failings of the organizations which have come and gone have only enhanced the organizations of today. It’s extremely easy, armed with hindsight, to expertly illustrate where Pride went wrong.

Similarly the fighters of today have benefited from those who’ve come before them. Without a doubt, young fighters are coming into the octagon more well-rounded and, on balance, in better physical condition than they have in the past. Because of Nog, Fedor, Couture, Liddell and many others, the up and coming mixed martial artists of today are much more well-equipped than the dominant players of just a few years ago.

by Cannon Jacques on Mar 2, 2010 12:42 AM EST reply actions  

Pride had largley the best fighters, fighting in front of the biggest crowds with the most exciting rules. They produced a glamorous show with pomp and ceremony without making you feel like you were about to be sold timeshare. Fighters seemed to exceed human capabilities of enduring punishment while the mega crowd cheered their heroics. It’s a period of time that is gone forever.

by naturalist on Mar 2, 2010 1:11 AM EST reply actions   1 recs

Oh, and PRIDE NEVER DIE!

I specializes in grammar fail.

by a tommy point on Mar 2, 2010 3:07 AM EST up reply actions  

yo nice opinion

but i still want my soccer kicks/stomps/knees to the head(downed guy) or you got rules that favor a wrestler. The sprawl stops a takedown but the knees are the offensive that is ignored.

by mr. gogoplata on Mar 2, 2010 4:03 PM EST reply actions  

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